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Non-Expert Foreign Policy

Anne Applebaum writes:

In the end, most presidents do learn on the job: Bill Clinton would probably never have predicted he'd contemplate bombing Belgrade, just as President Bush surely had never devoted much thought to Afghanistan. It's not easy to predict whose particular set of experiences will suit which particular crisis and which weaknesses will prove fatal. But we can certainly entertain ourselves between now and November 2008 trying to guess.

(Emphasis supplied.) Actually, Anne Applebaum demonstrates her non-expertise on the issues. In 1992, the Balkans were very much a hot spot and Slobodan Milosovic very much an issue:

It was George H. W. Bush's Secretary of State James Baker who went around the Balkans in 1991 remarking that "we don't have a dog in this fight." A remark Serb strongman Slobodan Milosevic took to mean, 'play ball,' and Serbian tanks went rolling into Croatia and Bosnia later that year and the following spring. . . .

President Clinton was aware of the Balkans crisis when he entered office. Similarly, George W. Bush SHOULD HAVE considered the issues of Al Qaida's presence in Afghanistan:

American cruise missiles pounded sites in Afghanistan and Sudan Thursday in retaliation for the deadly bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania on August 7. "Let our actions today send this message loud and clear -- there are no expendable American targets," U.S. President Clinton said in a televised address to the American people Thursday evening. "There will be no sanctuary for terrorists. We will defend our people, our interests and our values."

It is surprising how much we should know about what our Presidents think about foreign policy issues they will likely face. Ms. Applebaum has unwittingly provided us with wonderful recent examples.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Some learn on the job but some don't. (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 04:48:55 PM EST
    Jimmy Carter comes immediately to mind. (1.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:47:55 PM EST
    Doubtless. (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 07:12:02 PM EST
    Time for some EXPERT foreign policy (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by Sailor on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 05:03:17 PM EST
    A poll of 100 foreign policy heavyweights Monday showed most believe we're losing the war on terror, we're less safe because of Iraq, and that Islamic fanatics will mount another U.S. strike.

    The bipartisan panel including Madeleine Albright and Lawrence Eagleburger, secretaries of state for former Presidents Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush, also defied views held by leading presidential candidates such as Sen. Hillary Clinton.

    Nine out of 10 of the former top government, military and intelligence leaders surveyed warn that Americans now face greater danger and anticipate a new spectacular attack in the next decade, Foreign Policy magazine and the liberal-leaning Center for American Progress found.

    That contradicts statements by both President Bush and Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., who jarred liberals at a presidential debate in June when she said, "I believe we are safer than we were."

    Most of those surveyed - including prominent conservatives - blamed the Iraq war for increasing perils at home and its negative impact worldwide.



    In related news (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:35:45 PM EST
    Chicken Little has revised her "Sky is Falling" date from 8/28 until the 12th of never...

    Parent
    The WOT was just (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:39:25 PM EST
    your fantasy you mean, CL?

    Parent
    Facing The "Dark Assessment" (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:01:17 PM EST
    Scarecrow @ FDL
    Friday, July 13th, 2007
    We've had an extraordinary week of leaked candor about the catastrophic state of US foreign policy under the Bush/Cheney regime, predictably followed by Presidential denials that al Qaeda is back and blatant propaganda that we're making "satisfactory" progress on the few Iraq benchmarks that are virtually meaningless. The White House, which has always confused inflexible standards and testing with genuine education and wisdom, has been reduced to giving out report cards on itself that translate to "improvement needed" on everything that really matters.  


    But the reality based assessments dominated the news.  First it was the intelligence community's pre-denial assessment that al Qaeda has been allowed to regroup along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border to become as threatening as ever, both for Europe and possibly the US. The obvious conclusion is that the President's six year global war on terror is not only an abject failure but a growing threat to our security.
    ...
    I fear we will stay in Iraq, not because it makes any sense, not because there is even a remote connection between staying and the furtherance of any justifiable US strategic objective in that region, and certainly not because it helps deal with radical terrorism when it so plainly exacerbates it.  No, we will stay because to do otherwise would require our leaders and the media to acknowledge their collective responsibility for the suffering we have unleashed on the Iraqis and our own soldiers.  Has any nation ever managed in its own time such painful self recognition?

    Staying the course, even under the dishonest guise that it represents a "consensus" rather than a moral quagmire is not a defensible policy. Rather, it is an implicit punishment imposed on the hundreds or perhaps thousands of US soldiers who will yet die or be maimed to atone for the errors of everyone who first authorized or still promotes and sanctions this war.

    Now we wait for September for General Petraeus to Secretary Rice, report to Secretary Gates, report to the joint staff... and then report to Congress, and say publicly to Congress what the Bush WH wants them to say, and then report to the American people on what they see on the ground there, and say publicly to the American people what the Bush WH wants them to say...

    Because for Petraeus to say otherwise would require our leaders and the media to acknowledge their collective responsibility for the suffering we have unleashed on the Iraqis and our own soldiers.

    Facing (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:14:22 PM EST
    More spin and ass-covering today (5.00 / 0) (#50)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 10:42:37 AM EST
    Meanwhile, as Crocker was busy spewing his line of bullsh*t, a Black Hawk went down in northern Iraq killing all 14 U.S. soldiers aboard...

    How to talk of of both side of your mouth, by Ryan Crocker:

    The Sept. 15 deadline for Bush's next progress report to Congress is fast approaching, leaving the president little time to show that his U.S. troop buildup is succeeding in providing the enhanced security the Iraqi leaders need to forge a unified way forward.
    ...
    U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker, co-author of the highly anticipated report to Congress, also said Tuesday that Washington's blueprint for reconciliation was insufficient to win back control of Iraq. Congressional benchmarks such as laws to share oil revenue and reform security services don't tell the whole story, he said Tuesday.

    Crocker, who will present the report with military commander Gen. David Petraeus, called Iraq's problems difficult but fixable, arguing for more time for his diplomacy and operations by the bolstered American military force.

    "Failure to meet any of them (congressionally mandated benchmarks) does not mean the definitive failure of the state or the society," Crocker said. "Conversely, to make them all would not by any means mean that they've turned the corner and it's a sun-dappled upland from here on in with peace and harmony and background music. It's just a lot more complex than that."



    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:34:52 PM EST
    Whatever....

    Maliki is not the problem.

    via digby

    He sure as hell... (1.00 / 1) (#75)
    by jr on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:58:01 PM EST
    ...ain't a solution.

    Parent
    Well... (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:56:54 PM EST
    He is the problem from where the neocons stand, I think.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 10:58:53 PM EST
    They want Allawi

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#72)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:05:38 PM EST
    Allawi is much better at obsequious ingratiation and taking orders without questioning.

    Parent
    Not To Mention (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:11:42 PM EST
    That he is CIA

    Parent
    Yeah, he's in their pocket. (none / 0) (#74)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 11:19:07 PM EST
    Knows the program, and wants to follow it.

    Parent
    Colonialism (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 08:12:57 AM EST
    You sound like a colonist wanting control the ungrateful natives.
    Read Fisk on the issue.

    I want the ungrateful natives... (1.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jr on Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 09:06:41 PM EST
    ...to ask us to leave.  Colonialists, from my understanding, usually want to be in whatever country they're occupying.

    Parent
    Obviously (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 10:09:18 PM EST
    You are not a colonalist for the reason you point out. You just sound like one, which is my point.

    Parent
    Didn't you know?? (1.00 / 1) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 04:28:48 PM EST
    President Clinton was aware of the Balkans crisis when he entered office. Similarly, George W. Bush SHOULD HAVE considered the issues of Al Qaida's presence in Afghanistan:

    This sounds like he did.

    RICHARD CLARKE: Actually, I've got about seven points, let me just go through them quickly. Um, the first point, I think the overall point is, there was no plan on Al Qaeda that was passed from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration.

    Second point is that the Clinton administration had a strategy in place, effectively dating from 1998. And there were a number of issues on the table since 1998. And they remained on the table when that administration went out of office -- issues like aiding the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, changing our Pakistan policy -- uh, changing our policy toward Uzbekistan. And in January 2001, the incoming Bush administration was briefed on the existing strategy. They were also briefed on these series of issues that had not been decided on in a couple of years.

    And the third point is the Bush administration decided then, you know, in late January, to do two things. One, vigorously pursue the existing policy, including all of the lethal covert action findings, which we've now made public to some extent.

    And the point is, while this big review was going on, there were still in effect, the lethal findings were still in effect. The second thing the administration decided to do is to initiate a process to look at those issues which had been on the table for a couple of years and get them decided.

    So, point five, that process which was initiated in the first week in February, uh, decided in principle, uh in the spring to add to the existing Clinton strategy and to increase CIA resources, for example, for covert action, five-fold, to go after Al Qaeda

    Link

    Anne Applebaum (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 04:41:51 PM EST
    seems to think otherwise.

    Parent
    Of course (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 04:43:05 PM EST
    that was the famous coverup background briefing that Clarke was forced to do.

    Bad example from you Jim. Prove that Bush did not do it.

    Parent

    Prove that Bush did not do it. (1.00 / 1) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 05:55:20 PM EST
    Prove what?? You made a claim, I provided a link. If you want to say that Clarke is lying, please provide proof.


    QUESTION: When was that presented to the president?

    CLARKE: Well, the president was briefed throughout this process.

    Let's face the music and dance. Heck, you can even lead.... You made a mistake.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 07:32:59 PM EST
    Have you never heard Clarke's testimony on it? Before the Congress?


    Parent
    BTD (1.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 08:44:33 PM EST
    You can choose to believe Clarke before he was fired, or after he was fired and promoting his book.

    If he was spinning tales during the interview, how many tales did he spin in his testimony to the 9/11 Commission and the 60 Minutes interview?

    I believe this part of his story because it makes sense.

    Particularly this part.

    QUESTION: What is your response to the suggestion in the [Aug. 12, 2002] Time [magazine] article that the Bush administration was unwilling to take on board the suggestions made in the Clinton administration because of animus against the -- general animus against the foreign policy?

    CLARKE: I think if there was a general animus that clouded their vision, they might not have kept the same guy dealing with terrorism issue. This is the one issue where the National Security Council leadership decided continuity was important and kept the same guy around, the same team in place. That doesn't sound like animus against uh the previous team to me.

    JIM ANGLE: You're saying that the Bush administration did not stop anything that the Clinton administration was doing while it was making these decisions, and by the end of the summer had increased money for covert action five-fold. Is that correct?

    CLARKE: All of that's correct.

    That is a very straightforeward answer that follows a question that he could have slid a bit on. He didn't.

    Parent

    Clarke quit (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 08:56:28 PM EST
    He was not fired.

    Lying again by Jim.

    Parent

    BTD - Your snark is expected. (1.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 10:53:47 PM EST
    It is what you do when you find yourself over extended and in strange lands. You are not really responsible for your acts.

    I'm not an attorney, and I certainly am not as quick as you. Partly because of talent, partly because of desire. Partly because of age.

    But do not talk to me about such things. Because there you enter my world. The world I lived in for longer than you have been alive.

    He was fired.

    Sleep peacefully Big Tent. You have a ways yet to go.

    Parent

    HAhahhahaha (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 11:09:28 PM EST
    Off your meds again ppj?
    He resigned in January 2003 as "anti-terrorism czar." after serving in the White House under three presidents (George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush). [1] [2] [3] In 2004, he published a book, Against All Enemies: Inside America's War on Terror--What Really Happened (ISBN 0743260244), which was highly critical of the Bush administration's handling of counterterrorism both before and after September 11.

    Rand Beers, the official who succeeded Clarke after he left the White House, resigned in protest just one month later--five days before the Iraqi war started--for precisely the same reason that Clarke quit.

    SourceWatch

    The only link that claims that Clarke was fired is PowerLie and not even in the main text but in a comment by someone just as wacked out as ppj.

    Parent

    Squeaky also has strawmen (1.00 / 1) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 11:25:45 PM EST
    The issue really isn't whether he quit, or was fired. BTD made a sweeping statement and Clarke's interview proved him wrong.

    So your most excellent claim is of no value.

    Now that I have nailed that point down, I add that your claim that he quit proves your total lack of experience in such matters.

    What happened was quite simple. Clarke was finally faced with taking action, something he had not had to do in past adminitrations. It would not have politic to "fire" him, so he was shut off from more and more decisions. He became what the Japanese call the "Cat by the window." Finally he rose in high dungeon and said something like, "If you continue.... blah, blah... I can not support..."

    And the stunning words he heard went something like this. "Well, I am regretful that you are leaving us....be assured we have appreciated...your efforts have been.. let me know if I can... I am sure we will have a huge luncheon.. "

    There are firings and there are firings. Not all are done on the factory floor.

    Parent

    HAhahahahahAAHAHA (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 11:54:48 PM EST
    Strawman has become your favorite word. A reflex at this point whenever you are shown to be making sh*t up.

    In case you have any braincells left to remember, I was responding to your smear of Clarke:

    He was fired. Sleep peacefully Big Tent. You have a ways yet to go.

    Hilarious

    Parent

    Aww, give the guy a break, Squeaky. (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 06:58:42 AM EST
    He knows Clarke was fired. He has inside info. ;-)

    In his world Clarke's resignation letter was perfectly natural. Bowing and scraping and forelock tugging self abasing obsequiety out of sheer love for dear leader. Self-respect after all, in his world, is just a commodity to be traded away on a moments notice for a scratch behind the ears, or something else equally valuable. Pitiful.

    Parent

    To: The Twins (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 07:27:01 AM EST
    Ah the twin fonts of knowledge, squeaky and edger.

    Both deny what the transcript says, and neither have the vaguest idea, according to them, of how people are "fired" when they get above certain levels.

    Parent

    You never felt a thing (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 07:34:11 AM EST
    during the operation, did you...

    Parent
    Not only a bad example (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 05:05:23 PM EST
    but a purposely misleading broken link. The only other place in Talkleft any of those quotes appear is in a comment by ppj, quoting from FoxNews here.

    This time he attempts to give the impression that his broken link is simply a mistake. But it is not a mistake. The quotes this time (above) are directly copied and pasted from the FoxNews spin, and are not quite the same quotes as in his prior comment.

    The disinigenuous trolling continues while he runs and hides from other conversations today on foreign policy.

    Parent

    Gasp! A link that doesn't work!! (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 05:57:34 PM EST
    Try this one. It will satisfy. even the most dedicated complainers.

    Parent
    Here is another try (1.00 / 1) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:00:32 PM EST
    Link

    It's true! It's true!!

    Parent

    but ppj defends faux news as not being journalists (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Sailor on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:11:42 PM EST
    so of course he has links to actual journalists interviewing Clarke with those quotes ... right?

    Parent
    Sailor loves strawmen (1.00 / 1) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:41:08 PM EST
    What does being or not being a journalist have anything to do with an interview that is a transcript?

    Do you claim that the transcript is wrong?

    Do you claim the interview never happened?

    It's giggle time...

    Parent

    You are a laff riot! (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 07:05:28 PM EST
    Of course, when I posted from an article written by Ron Suskind, what did YOU have to say? Let's show the audience this exchange from the WMD Dodge thread.

    tnthorpe (1.00 / 2) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:33:28 PM EST
    The aide said that guys like me were
    And since the writer didn't give us a name, how do we know this happened??

    [ Parent | Reply to This |  1  2  3  4  5  ]

    Denial (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 02:27:54 AM EST
    is more than a river in Egypt. I suppose you could call or ask Ron Suskind, but that's your hangup not mine.

    [ Parent | Reply to This ]

    Oh yeah, it's giggle time....

    Parent

    And your point is what?? (1.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 10:59:19 PM EST
    I linked you to a transcript. I have made no claims in this regard. What Clarke has said, Clarke has said.

    Neither of us can add or subtract from that.

    It is called proof. Pity you can't seem to find any on your own. I do remember asking for some in the Padilla matter.

    Parent

    'Nuff said (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 11:28:32 PM EST
    I'm not going to make my use of this fine venue about correcting your many inanities. You are simply not a serious interlocutor. If someday that changes......

    Parent
    tnthorpe (1.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 07:32:59 AM EST
    And if someday you have proof...

    And if someday you give up quoting stories that use anonymous sources...

    ...naw... never happen.

    Parent

    It's the (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 10:05:59 PM EST
    medication. He goes looney tunes fairly regularly.

    Parent
    ad dear edger (1.00 / 1) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 11:05:31 PM EST
    so lacking talent he can't even muster up an insult on his own because he is fearful of displaying his own nastiness. Instead he hides behind links to cartoons.

    Cartoons that aren't even his own.

    Parent

    Well, yes, I do (1.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 07:37:10 AM EST
    so of course he has links to actual journalists interviewing Clarke with those quotes ... right?

    WASHINGTON --  The following transcript documents a background briefing in early August 2002 by President Bush's former counterterrorism coordinator Richard A. Clarke to a handful of reporters, including Fox News' Jim Angle.


    Parent
    Just like when generals can't contradict ... (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Sailor on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 05:14:30 PM EST
    ... the admin when they are serving, neither do loyal soldiers like Clarke.

    Once out they tell the truth and ppj just can't handle the truth.

    BTD, why even bother, ppj believes in Intelligent design, doesn't believe in climate change and believes that Iraq and 9/11 are connected.

    All of those are contradicted by facts. @ of those by facts obtained thru science, which ppj also doesn't believe in.

    Facts cannot sway a fanatic.

    Parent

    and sailor is a conservative (1.00 / 1) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:13:06 PM EST
    After all he opposes any change that would improve how we deal with US citizens accused of terrorism.

    Gosh, I bet he is also against a woman's right to vote.

    As for his supurous claims...

    Let's see. If he claims that our invasion of Iraq and 9/11 is not connected, he is  saying that Congress would have approved the invasion if the attack had not happened.

    Wanna debate that point?

    Free giggles anyone?

    As for GW, as in many things, he is semi-right.

    I don't believe in man made GW. Make of that what you will. I think this covers the Left's position.

    Link

    Free light bulbs anyone??

    ID? An interesting theory, as I have stated before. Personally I believe the earth was seeded by the grandchildren of Isaac Asimov, who traveled back in time....

    Parent

    Are you sure that Sailor (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:38:54 PM EST
    opposes any change that would improve how we deal with US citizens accused of terrorism?  Torture has been declared by experts not affective or reliable.

    Parent
    You always miss the good stuff (1.00 / 1) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 06:47:09 PM EST
    Well, my proposition was that we need to discuss how we make changes.

    If he wants to claim that we are torturing prisioners, then he can certainly bring that up. After all, I did write:

    If you start with the belief that the arrest warrant is viable, then an interrogation for information needed for national security operations naturally follows.

    You can then argue the methods allowed, and the length of time allowed.

    If you start without that belief, then what follows is standard due process.



    Parent
    It's blame the victim time (1.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 07:33:44 PM EST
    Carl Levin is calling for al-Maliki's ouster today. I guess Nouri just isn't sucking up as well as he could be. Get rid of him before Petraeus recites his lines next month?

    Why take him seriously anymore? (1.00 / 1) (#52)
    by jr on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 04:07:29 PM EST
    His government was originally based on the idea that he could create a "unity government" including groups from all three major sectarian groups.  There was a brief moment back in April, right after the Sadrists quit, where there was a chance for a compromise between moderate Shia factions and the Sunni bloc, but that moment has long since past, and with the Sunnis no longer participating in the Cabinet or in the government, there's no reason to put any faith in Maliki's ability to make any political progress.

    If there's not going to be political progress towards a compromise, why on earth should we continue bolstering a hopeless cause?  If Maliki can't convince Sunnis that he's worth trusting, what's the point of his administration?

    Parent

    I think that it is (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 04:56:40 PM EST
    not up to anyone in the US to decide for Iraqis what is or is not "progress".

    To metaphorize a bit, since we destroyed the infrastructure of the house before we started the fire and made no effort to rebuild it, once we stop throwing fuel in and get out of the way before we are thrown out of the way, someone else will rebuild it.

    It probably won't look anything like what we'd like it to when they're done, but too bad.

    It's their business, in other words. Not America's. Regardless of how often the "national security interests" line is uttered.

    I opposed the invasion and the occupation from before the beginning, and think it never should have happened, and that those responsible should be occupying cells in the Hague awaiting their trial and conviction on war crimes charges, preceded by massive reparations paid to Iraq and her peoples and a complete and total withdrawal of all U.S. military forces from their country.

    America has no business any longer in telling al-Maliki or any other Iraqi what is acceptable.

    They have every right, IMO, to say "shove it".

    Parent

    Which is what Maliki sd. in essence today. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 05:11:03 PM EST
    And why wouldn't he? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 05:25:07 PM EST
    And why wouldn't any other Iraqi take the same attitude?

    Why should they listen to anything Bush has to say or wants them to do?

    All that Washingtons "help" has ever done for Iraq is make the situation worse. Continually. Never better. Only worse.

    Iraq will get fixed. Eventually.

    But it will not be republicans or democrats, or even the U.S. that fixes it.

    The U.S. presence in Iraq, and the U.S. refusal to leave, is the problem.

    When Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah opened the Arab Summit in Riyadh [...] speaking about Iraq as a land where "blood flows between brothers in the shadow of an illegitimate foreign occupation and hateful sectarianism," he offended many policymakers in Washington. But the statement was only one signal among many that, in the face of explosive conflicts that the Bush administration has caused or failed to contain, the king is out to assert Saudi Arabia's role as an independent leader in the region. The goals--to stabilize Iraq, build an Arab-Israeli peace and contain the growing influence of Iran--are the same as Washington's. But the means to those ends are very different. In an exclusive interview, Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal sat down with NEWSWEEK's Christopher Dickey to trace the dramatic changes in his country's policy over the last year.
    What will fix Iraq is not staying there and fantasizing that continuing to do the same things that are causing the problems there will somehow magically begin to solve the problems.

    What will fix Iraq is not "doing" something.

    What will fix Iraq is "not doing" something.

    Not that I expect it will ever happen, but not funding the occupation any longer and complete and total withdrawal of all U.S. military from the country is what will begin fixing Iraq.

    Along with massive reparations paid to the Iraqi people, perhaps equal to the trillion dollars spent to destroy their country.

    Parent

    If there are ::any:: "benchmarks" (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 06:07:48 PM EST
    to be set or to be met, or "decisions" made by anyone about what is or is not "progress" for Iraq, rightfully those benchmarks and those decisions should be being set and made by Iraqis. Required benchmarks to be met by Washington for the "right" and the "privilege" of being allowed to stay and "help".

    And in actual fact that is exactly what is now happening in Iraq:

    The American "surge" as with everything else they have done is a failure...
    ...
    There is only one measure of progress that matters in Irak and that is the progress in chewing the invader forces into pieces and then spitting them out. Progress on that is excellent.

    They came here as predators and now they are prey. The only thing an American understands is force, we sand nig*ers know a thing or two about that.



    Parent
    totally disagree (none / 0) (#55)
    by jr on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 05:16:30 PM EST
    Look, I don't care what standards you're setting or who should or shouldn't be saying it, but when you go from a do-nothing federal government that includes all three sectarian groups to a do-nothing federal government that quite obviously excludes one of those sectarian groups, that ain't progress.  

    I too opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and I too want us to get out.  But as long as American soldiers are there propping up Maliki, and until Maliki exercises his sovereignty and asks us to leave (meaning, until he stops relying on American blood to keep his station), we have a pretty large stake in how his government operates.  If Maliki can't do the job, that ought to cause an adjustment in how we approach the situation.  We can't simply turn a blind eye to how his government functions (or doesn't).

    Parent

    What Do You Suggest (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 05:27:20 PM EST
    A Mussolini type? The US would love to put in an Alawi or Chalabi type but the people won't go for a US plant. Best that we leave ASAP as we are affecting the whole balance in a bad way.

    Parent
    When we leave... (none / 0) (#60)
    by jr on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 08:07:23 PM EST
    ...we'll probably either get a Tito or a Milosevic.  But I don't think we get to pick who it is.  I just don't think propping up someone who's patently ineffective is a better option, since all we're doing is prolonging the inevitable and dragging out the bloodshed.

    I'm with you in that it has to happen organically, and I'm saying that there can be no organic government leadership so long as the US is backing a horse in this race.  Maliki might not have been a bad idea at the start, when it looked like he might actually be able to establish a pluralistic, unity government.  But since that plan fell through, we ought to stop propping him up artificially.

    Parent

    Here's a good question... (1.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 08:45:40 PM EST
    Why should al-Maliki, or any other Iraqis, "prop up" the Bush regime by conceding to demands that are designed for one reason only.

    To save face for Bush and buy him time to leave office office without having to change his mind?

    'The Surge Is Working!' Isn't Working

    Bush knows it. Petraeus knows it. Crocker knows it. I know it. You know it. Pelosi and Reid and Levin and Lieberman and everyone except the in denial wingnuts knows it.

    Parent

    Iraqis provide security in DC's civil war? (1.00 / 1) (#62)
    by jr on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 10:15:59 PM EST
    Maliki should acquiesce to those demands for progress, reform, liberty and apple pie because his ass lives in the Green Zone.

    Bush doesn't have to worry about being deposed if Iraqi troops withdraw from Washington, DC.

    Parent

    You're starting to sound like (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 11:24:47 PM EST
    you'd rather the occupation continues. National security issues, etc., etc., etc.?

    Parent
    I'd rather it not, but it's going to... (1.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jr on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 06:37:42 PM EST
    ...regardless of what I want.  Don't be an ass--neither of us can evict the President from the White House, and as long as he's keeping us trapped there we might as well not be backing an unproductive and ineffective wannabee like Maliki.

    Parent
    Don't be an ass. (1.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 06:59:45 PM EST
    You're smarter than that. I hope.

    al-Maliki may well be unproductive from your point of view, or from the point of view of anyone else who thinks that Iraq is there only for the benefit America.

    I doubt that al-Maliki or any other Iraqis much care what your opinion is.

    It is their country. We are unwelcome invaders. US troops are not there "propping up" the Iraqi government, or protecting an independent government. They are there to keep the Iraqi government, whoever leads it, in line. They are there to be a gun held to al-Maliki's head.

    The only reason Bush needs al-Maliki to fall in line and acquiesce is to buy Bush enough time to leave office and dump the problems on the next president. It is in that sense that what Bush needs is for al-Mliki to "prop up" the Bush regime by conceding to Bush's demands.

    Parent

    Oh, please (1.00 / 1) (#66)
    by jr on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 07:28:36 PM EST
    This is just getting redundant.  Our troops are the basis upon which his regime is built, and pretending otherwise just makes you look like you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

    The Iraqi view of my opinions doesn't matter, and I'm not trying to influence them.  Our troop presence, barring an Iraqi request for us to leave, is a matter of AMERICAN policy, which is what I'm trying to influence and what you should be concerning yourself with if you really want to end the fighting and/or get our troops home.

    Iraqis are suffering because the war continues, and the war cannot end without political progress in Iraq, which Maliki cannot deliver.  Iraqis are dying because our puppet is ineffective--try and understand that before being an ass.  If you disagree, make a your case, but quit acting like a purity troll, and don't ever question my motives again--I've worked my ass off to change American policies in Iraq and bring our troops home, and your complete lack of insight is insulting to those of us who take this stuff seriously enough to know what the hell we're talking about before spouting off.

    Parent

    US troops are the basis on (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 07:47:35 PM EST
    which his regime is built is obvious and is the problem. I have no interest in arguing with you. My comments here are expressions of my own opinions developed over years of observations. They are not requests for your approval, or for your condescension if they do not agree with your desire to control Iraq.

    al-Maliki is not there to "deliver" anything to you. The attitude that he or any other Iraqi is, is the root of the problems there, and the root of US political problems now. The simple fact that US troops are targeted and killed by Iraqis is an Iraqi "request" for us to leave. If you are so blind you cannot see that there is no point in further discussion with you.

    Put yourself in their shoes, think, and stop being an ass yourself. You sound like Michael Ledeen or Joshua Muravchik or Carl Levin or Joe Lieberman for chrissakes.

    Have a nice day. This conversation ends here.

    Parent

    I sound like Joe Lieberman? (1.00 / 1) (#76)
    by jr on Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 12:00:16 AM EST
    You mean THIS Joe Lieberman: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/

    Nice comparison: offer the same criticism of me that Lieberman offers of Clinton and Levin, within hours of him saying it, then compare me to him.  Good job.

    Parent

    See my reply to oculus above. (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 05:27:15 PM EST
    Sailor is a Conservative (1.00 / 1) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 11:31:24 PM EST
    Well, I never did have much to say to conservatives.

    So predictable. So locked into doing things that don't work. Not a progressive idea in their bodies.

    He doesn't want to use allies to fight for us and save our soldiers lives and he doesn't want to change the laws to protect our citizens and our country.

    More lies from ppj. (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 22, 2007 at 01:04:28 PM EST
    I just thought it was asinine... (none / 0) (#8)
    by jr on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 05:46:06 PM EST
    ...to predicate her piece on Obama's "foreign policy gaffes."  Best I can tell, she's just another person who's somehow convinced themselves that having a candidate talk candidly about foreign policy options is a greater risk to the Republic than having the most powerful person on earth projecting greater uncertainty into international affairs.