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Hillary On MTP: Comparing The Iraq Records

Taylor Marsh provides the key clip:

Speaking for me only.

Besides the typical Russertian ripping of statements out of context, the topic that was most interesting to me was the discussion of Iraq and the records of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama on Iraq.

First things first, Hillary's now familiar explanation of her vote - that she was not voting for war, she was voting to get the inspectors again - does not wash. She cites statements by the Bush Administration that it was not a vote for war, and those statements were made of course, but any rational being knew that was just cover talk. It WAS a vote for war and we all knew it.

Barack Obama stood tall in that moment and argued forcefully AGAINST war and against voting for the Iraq War Resolution. Barack Obama was clearly superior in judgment to Hillary Clinton at that moment.

Now when it comes to evaluating Barack Obama's actions after, including his statements in 2004 saying he did not know how he would have voted if he had been in the Senate, it is clear that Bill Clinton's descriptions of Obama's actions is completely accurate. Greg Sargent has the quote where Obama says he does not know how he would have voted: [More...]

In a recent interview, he declined to criticize Senators Kerry and Edwards for voting to authorize the war, although he said he would not have done the same based on the information he had at the time. ''But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,'' Mr. Obama said. ''What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.''

(Emphasis supplied.) Further, Barack Obama was against every attempt to put timelines on the Iraq Debacle. And in 2007, Barack Obama famously was against the efforts to NOT fund the Iraq Debacle, the only vehicle for ending the war in the face of the Bush intransigence. Obama said we can not play chicken with the troops, adopting the GOP talking point on the subject.

Hillary Clinton was no better. It took Chris Dodd to force BOTH Clinton and Obama to embrace the NOT funding approach.

Since 2002, there has been no difference whatsoever between Clinton and Obama on Iraq. But 2002 matters a great deal. Both candidates have a point.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Declined to criticize the nominees (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:50:33 AM EST
    Obama's defenders will point out that he was watering down his criticism of the nominees. However, it seems to me Howard Dean had no problem criticizing both and still campaigned for both.

    As for the Nixon secret plan approach as I understand it:

    Nixon let the NV know during the Johnson 68 Paris talks, that they might get a better deal from Nixon. Scuttled the talks to keep Humphrey from getting any benefit.

    After the election, Nixon tried to link US Soviet relations to the the Soviets pressuring the NV for a settlement on our terms. Gromeyko  told Kissinger essentially, your problem is not our problem (much more diplomatically than I put it here, according to Dallek).

    That led to Vietnamization and bombing as the only strategies Nixon felt he had, because he too, feel into Johnson's trap of not wanting to be the first American president to lose a war.

    Well bombing into submission didn't work then, Its dubious that it will work today. Iraqization has not worked so far. In fact it was the point of the surge- give the Iraqi's breathing room to get their act together. They got their breathing room,  they still haven't got their act together.

    This leaves being the 1st president to lose a war. That milestone has been passed. Seems to me, getting out, putting the blame where it belongs -on Bush, Cheney, the Neo-cons- is the order of the day.  

    Obama wants everyone to get along (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:57:40 AM EST
    He wants to be all things to all people.

    He is Bill Clinton circa 1992.

    Parent

    Obama is a pol (none / 0) (#19)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:08:20 AM EST
    a very eloquent pol, but a pol nonetheless.

    Parent
    I've heard that before . . . (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:15:09 AM EST
    If I am quoting you, I only steal from good (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:21:35 AM EST
    sources. I don't claim to be original on it.

    Parent
    WHO CARES (none / 0) (#95)
    by sunnyspot on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 08:46:08 PM EST
    I dont think anyone cares about what Bob Johnson has to say, obviously he cannot forced people to vote for Hillary. Hitherto Obama have never mention race in his campaign but the Clinton campaign team believed that the only way to distort Obama chance in SC is to introduce race.

    Parent
    That electoral strategy might have to change (none / 0) (#60)
    by kovie on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:50:53 PM EST
    after NH. In fact I think that his narrow loss to Hillary was the best thing that happened to him, the party, and possibly country, as it will force him to be a stronger candidate, both in the primaries, and in the general if he gets the nomination, and a better president if he wins. I.e. less "hope", more substance.

    Of course, if he's truly like Clinton, he could always fake substance, get elected, and then go on to govern as a non-confrontational triangulator. But losing to Hillary will force a vetting process to be applied to him that will make that slightly less likely, if he survives it and wins. Democracy, not just Hillary, won last Tuesday.

    Parent

    Obama Was Also One Of The Biggest Supporters (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:53:45 AM EST
    of the "magical September" when Republicans were going to join their Democratic colleagues in a bipartisan effort to change the direction of the occupation. Who can forget his famous sound bite of "Just 16 Votes To End The War." Of course, that rhetoric ignored the fact that 68 additional votes were needed in the House before this could become a reality. Was this naivety on Obama's part or just a clever way to kick the can down the road? You could also argue that this strategy relieved him of responsibility for the outcome and put the failure on the voters.

    Great point (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:56:56 AM EST
    It is a central flaw in Obama's political view.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#62)
    by kovie on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    It may have been a smart ELECTORAL political approach for Dems in that by getting Pubs to stick with Bush on the war, more of them will likely lose their seats in November. But as a LEGISLATIVE political approach to actually ending the war, it's turned out to be useless.

    And even the electoral approach may turn out to be foolish seeing as how the war has become less important of an issue with the "success" of the "surge" (or so the unquestionably independant media tells us).

    Still, it's quite a ways till November and who knows how the war will play out as an issue (and in congress). Two years ago now the GOP appeared to have a lock on holding onto both houses. The next 10 months will be interesting, for sure.

    Parent

    It was always IMO a useless legislative approach. (none / 0) (#71)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:40:47 PM EST
    No way were enough Republicans going to change their votes because their entire careers were based on saving Americans from the terrorists in Iraq and winning the war. Their base would have left them immediately if they changed positions.

    Never believed it was even a smart political approach. Dems managed to anger the people who really cared about ending the occupation and looked stupid and ineffectual. Any reduction of troop size between now and the election will be due to Bush and the Republicans.

    Parent

    Yup (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by andgarden on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:58:54 AM EST
    Whence the "Roadblock Republicans?"

    John Kerry is still using them to raise money.

    Parent

    Isn't the question (none / 0) (#1)
    by Warren Terrer on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 08:56:54 AM EST
    which of these candidates is going to get the heck out of Iraq asap after he or she takes the oath of office? That's what I want to know.

    At this point in time I think Obama is more likely to do that than Clinton, but I'm not sure.

    the record reveals no differences on THAT (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 08:59:26 AM EST
    between them.

    Edwards would have been easily the best bet to get them out the fastest.

    Parent

    The cynic in me (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Warren Terrer on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:05:46 AM EST
    (which is most of me) says that we will get a Nixon strategy from Obama or Clinton. We will be told that the president's strategy is disengagement from Iraq, or some such thing. But it will be a thread the needle strategy, i.e. we're getting out of Iraq any minute now, after a few conditions are met.

    Progressives will be encouraged to believe that those conditions are far more realistic than the Bush conditions and are designed to protect the troops and ensure some sort of 'stability' for the region. Conservatives will be led to believe that the new president just has a different strategy for 'victory' than Bush had.

    Just give it another 6 months and the war will be over.

    Parent

    Your fears are well founded (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:07:08 AM EST
    on this, imo.

    I share them.


    Parent

    Less Nixon and more HHH, I think (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:33:40 AM EST
    Which means there's still a danger, but I think we'll get the troops out at the end of the day.

    Parent
    Are You Being A Cynic (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:40:16 AM EST
    or looking realistically at what will happen based on all available data. IMO all indications are that you are correct. I have come to the conclusion that they only way we will ever be out of Iraq is if somehow the Iraqis throw us out. Not a pleasant scenario either way.

    Parent
    Well, in Daily Kos world (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:37:16 AM EST
    Bill Clinton is engaging in personal attacks

    Daily Kos world (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:45:09 AM EST
    has been a wasteland for quite some time now.

    Not the FPers, the community.

    Parent

    One thing I just don't agree with you on (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:40:20 AM EST
    Many people I know, self included, do not see that it was a vote for war but allowed a war.

    Well (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:46:34 AM EST
    my point is I find it hard to believe anyone believed Bush was not determined to go to war no matter what.

    Parent
    You are both correct (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 09:52:39 AM EST
    It was drafted as MT says, the practical effect was as BTD notes.

    Parent
    That's it in a nutshell isn't it? (none / 0) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:43:52 PM EST
    And even if you knew that you were giving Bush a blank check the drafting gives anyone who was almost certain where would end up with this cover if needed.  

    Parent
    Possibly, but you're missing the point: (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by MarkL on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:07:52 PM EST
    Given what we know today, isn't it clear that Bush would have gone to war with Iraq even without the AUMF? I certainly think so. That being the case, to cast the AUMF as the key vote which enabled the war is just wrong.

    Parent
    I just read that Hillary made this exact (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by MarkL on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:57:19 PM EST
    point on MTP. Interesting.

    Parent
    Hate to admit it (none / 0) (#18)
    by RalphB on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:03:33 AM EST
    but I'm one of those 'idiots' who didn't see it as a vote for war either. It was outside my experience that a President of the US would lie like a dog about war and peace, like Bush did.  I remember, at the time, all those assurances that we were not in a rush to war. Even Colin Powell made those assurances and I had a ton of respect for him.

    Color me clueless, but I was gob smacked when it all turned out to be a lie. I know lots of people who were like me, and a lot of the congress, taken in by it. I've detested the Bush Administration ever since.

    Parent

    to paraphrase Animal House (none / 0) (#22)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:17:59 AM EST
    you trusted them, you f@@ked up.

    I am not being harsh. You are not the first, you won't be the last, unfortunately. See Johnson and Nixon lying about war and peace in Vietnam for starters. See also Wilson, 1916 versus Wilson 1917. FDR campaigned on staying out of the war while preparing to go to war and looking for an excuse in the North Atlantic to go to war with Germany and "lucking out" when the Germans declared war on us after we declared war on Japan following Pearl Harbor. I happen to think FDR was right, the Germans were a real threat. The Iraqi's, of course, were not.

    We all want to be able to trust our Presidents and give them the benefit of the doubt. We still must watch them. The colloraly to this, is never ever trust a Bush.  This includes JEB, George P and anyone I have left out.

    Parent

    It's not about the Bushates (none / 0) (#58)
    by kovie on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:42:21 PM EST
    But about the political forces that they represent and are a leading part of. Note that I don't say conservatives or the GOP, since the elements that sent us to war spanned parties, movements and ideological groups.

    Neocons (which the Bushes are not) led the way, but others followed willingly, e.g. movement conservatives, corporatists, DLCers, centrists, "moderates", etc. Some were true believers, some opportunists, others cowards, yet others merely clueless. We need to watch out for ALL of them, in either party.

    And one of them may well be the next president.

    Parent

    My statement was not about Bush hate (none / 0) (#64)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:04:35 PM EST
    It was an objective statement of fact.

    George and JEB both are Milton Friedman acolytes (I suspect George P is as well, I certainly don't want to take a chance on him). That is intellectually what was behind privatization of core government function in Texas, Florida, and at the Federal Government (the practical function of privatization is to bring back the spoils system and reward your followers).

    War making is a core government function, one we all hope does not have to be used.

    George put Rummy in charge of outsourcing this core government function- Blackwater, Haliburton, etc. The highest corporate good is making the highest profit possible. By selling off this core government function and making a market for it, what basic thing  do war profiteering companies need? Is it in Blackwater and their ilk's interest to end the war?

    As for George W. Bush not being a Neo Con- I put it to you that Neo Conservatism's parents are Leo Strauss and Milton Freedman. An unnatural "marriage" producing an unnatural result. War as a unifying a nation married to laissez faire economics.

    Flashback to Jesse Jackson's 2000 admonition:  "America keep out of the Bushes". It was prophetically true then, and I suggest is true now.

    I otherwise agree with you

    Some were true believers, some opportunists, others cowards, yet others merely clueless. We need to watch out for ALL of them, in either party.

    Democracy requires we watch and restrain our elected officials like your greedy relatives once your rich uncle's will is read.  We have failed miserably in the 21st century so far.

    Parent

    Re "You trusted them." (none / 0) (#83)
    by oculus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:52:57 PM EST
    Where is the embedded video link please?

    Parent
    I'm glad that I'm in fine company (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:50:17 PM EST
    The Christmas before we went into Iraq I was having dinner with my Uncle who was a Vietnam vet.  I was talking about negotiating with Saddam and my Uncle said that there wouldn't be any real negotiations.  I told him that I wasn't that jaded and he told me that I was a silly girl, and it would appear that I can be a silly girl.  BTD on the other hand would have gone downstairs to shoot a game of pool with my Uncle and have after dinner drinks while talking about what to some was the obvious ;)

    Parent
    Maybe Because I Don't Particularly Trust Words (none / 0) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:50:54 AM EST
    from politicians, from the get go, I believed that Bush was determined to invade Iraq come hell or high water. The invasion of Iraq had been planned by neocons for a long time and they were some Bush's top advisors.

    I, personally, believe that the majority of the Dems that voted for it were afraid not to because of the atmosphere after 9/11.  There was real fear within the party that it would be the death of the party  and their own personal ambitions for several years to come.

    They may have hoped that it would only be used as advertised but I don't think they were naive enough to believe it.

    Parent

    Do not trust pols (none / 0) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:58:05 AM EST
    EVER.

    Not even Edwards . . .

    Parent

    My Current Support Of Edwards (none / 0) (#42)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:47:32 AM EST
    by way of being one of the last holdouts for Gore, has more to do with him being the best available option rather than trust. I just can't bring myself to vote for either Clinton or Obama on Feb 5th.

    Never a supporter of Clinton because her more hawkish stance on Iraq and complete disagreement on DLC type of politics. Her most recent vote on the Iran amendment ensures that I will not vote for her in the primaries.

    Obama was on my short list for a while (never top of the list) but was really turned off by his "Just 16 Votes"  and the dishonesty of that statement. Took him off my short list, when he followed Clinton's lead on the vote for the supplemental and refused to disclose how he would vote prior to going in to vote after the outcome had been decided. Lack of courage and leadership by both IMO. Don't buy into his excuse for not voting on the Iran amendment (lack of trust once again). Think he once again refused to take a stand because it could come back and haunt him politically. This seems to be a pattern with him that I find less than encouraging. The McClurkin debacle also ensured that he would not get my primary vote. Last, but least, I don't see any difference in Obama's "Bipartisanship For Ever" brand of politics from the DLC and I feel that both are harmful for the progressive movement in the party.

    OTOH, I do like Edwards positions on many of the issues. I think his proposals are the best thought out of any of the candidates and he is really campaigning on them. Without him in the race, both Clinton and Obama would be even farther to the right and much more wishy washy on the issues(sp?). Not sure he would govern as a progressive, but unlike the others, at least he is campaigning as a progressive.  The party will continue to marginalize and ignore us as long as they can win primary elections campaigning on DLC politics or bipartisanship crap filled with Republican talking points. I want  to keep him in the race because I feel his voice needs to be heard.

    Parent

    Blind trust is antithetical to democracy (none / 0) (#59)
    by kovie on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:45:34 PM EST
    Downright un-American if you ask me. Hell, after initially (if reluctantly) supporting the war until the occupation began, I don't trust myself. Wisdom, or at least something aproaching it, begins not just with doubt, but with self-doubt.

    Parent
    Agreed. (none / 0) (#72)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:41:25 PM EST
    Hillary did a good job on the whole (none / 0) (#17)
    by robrecht on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:02:59 AM EST
    in standing up to Russert.  Agree that Barack had better initial judgment on Iraq but did not follow it up well with action, but I would emphasize everything else in his quote so as not to mischaracterize his point at the time.

    i agree with ralphb (none / 0) (#20)
    by neilario on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:13:45 AM EST
    Taylor Marsh has a great post up with a quote from Joe wilson framing the 2002 context. While even then i was deeply concerned about the possibility of war [ and against it from the start loudly] No One believed the president and people like Colin Powell would lie that blatently. The was always a sense that there would need to be a next step after the inspections. It was used to pressure iraq with the inspections... and in the post 9/11 climate there was a good deal of false propaganda and lies substituting for 'intelligence' -- and there was an immense amount of pressure for the congress and the president and we as a country to stand together.
    NOW in retrospect it is easy to say the president was obviosly lying because we see this so clearly now. But i really dont even think the topic is relevant without an honest discussion of the context at the time not the re-imagining that is currently happening.
    BO brought this topic up and is using it as an example of judgement BUT there is a huge difference between a seat at the time outside of congress and inside. I applaud those in the congress who stood against the authorization  BUT I agree that the question is tell me what you would do now.

    Rewriting history (none / 0) (#34)
    by RalphB on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:22:04 AM EST
    is not the best way to learn from it.  If we continue down the path, we won't learn anything from this debacle either.  There's a shocking amount of hypocrisy in the media now about their stance on Iraq at the time.  Seems most people don't want to admit they f@@ked up, and that's a shame.

    Before the AUMF, there was precious little said against it.  The big protests came a little later, if I recall correctly.  If I'm wrong about that, then I'm sorry but I've slept since then.

    I completely agree that the important thing now is getting us out of the debacle with minumum loss of life and limb.  

    Parent

    What was HRC saying... (none / 0) (#24)
    by phedeen on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:50:40 AM EST

    ... when Obama was admittedly hedging on what he might have voted. I don't know, but I'm sure she was cheerleading the WH on in their war for oil, voicing her support for the Patriot Act, and generally doing nothing about Bush destroying our democracy. No nuanced political dissembling from her. Thats what her constituents wanted to hear at the time.

    But when the country (and Dem voters)turned on the war, so did HRC. Obama may not have been perfect in his anti-war stance, but his postion was head and shoulders above HRC at any point in the last 6 years. But because Obama acted like a politician once on the subject, hes' just as bad as she is? Is that the argument?

    Revising history through the use of the echo chamber. Yet another trick from the Rove playbook the Clintons have picked up, along with race-baiting, whisper campaigns, voter suppression (NV), and maybe even creative use of Diebold machines (NH?).

    The Bushes and Clintons have a lot in common.

    Four more years, four more years...


    No (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:57:19 AM EST
    By the time of the Dem Convention in 2004, Hillary and Obama sounded exactly the same.

    As for ONE moment of politicking by Obama, this is just the nonsense that drives me up the wall.

    Pols are pols ALL the time.

    Obam is not different.

    Parent

    No? (none / 0) (#36)
    by phedeen on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:40:19 AM EST
    You have one Obama quote, and Jeralyn adds some statements he made about a potential Kerry Administration.

    Where are the HRC quotes from that time talking about her ambivalence? When, in '04, did she say that she was "not sure" how she would have voted?

    How about some facts rather than HRC talking points.

    Parent

    You do not want to deal with facts (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:44:59 AM EST
    Where is yourt Obama quote on Iraq for the first 18 months of his being a Senator?

    I am not saying Hillary was good on Iraq. Indeed, she has been awful on Iraq until recently.

    I am saying Obama was JUST AS AWFUL.

    Parent

    Facts? (none / 0) (#82)
    by phedeen on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:47:37 PM EST

    Check Wash. Post, 11-23. My previous post was deleted because I had the link in it. Not sure how to do it properly.

    But, BTD, I'm sure you saw the article before it was taken down. Obama had to temper his stance and become more pragmatic because we were already in a mess that HRC voted for. But he was still against the war, and still much better on the topic than HRC.

    The FACTS are that when it mattered, HRC was for the BushCo war and Obama against. The facts are that Obama was nowhere near as "awful" as your candidate on Iraq, even if you forget the whole issue of who was against the war in '02 and who was for it.

    I ask again, where are the quotes from HRC in that time frame. You must have researched it for this post. Show me how her position was "no different" than Obamas at the time.

    You are the one who does not want to deal with the facts. Because here at TalkHillary, the facts that hurt HRC are ignored and replaced with talking points and spin.


    Parent

    Lest we forget (none / 0) (#28)
    by Rojas on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:07:34 AM EST
    Regime change became the clinton's policy in 98.

    And the failed Iraq policy of the clintons provided a large basis of support for war.
    The shame we felt over the sanctions that brutalised the civillian population. This was brought home to me like kick in the gut when I watched hillary and albright (500,000 dying kids was worth it) at the podium the other day.

    It's silly for the revisionist give hill credit for experience for their first two terms but none of the responsibility.

    Regime change was not the Clinton policy (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:14:17 AM EST
    as they did nothing to achieve it.

    I think the 2002 vote by Hillary is her albatross but let's stick to the facts.

    The sanctions regime was imposed by Bush 41 and its ALLEGED failure was the impetus for the Iraq Debacle.

    As for the deaths supposedly caused by the sanctions, this is fantasy. The Oil for Food program was mangled by Saddam, not by the Clintons.

    Parent

    Turnip truck politics (none / 0) (#33)
    by Rojas on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:21:24 AM EST
    See
    Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)
    H.R.4655

    and
    www.cnn.com/US/9812/16/clinton.iraq.speech/

    "The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people," Clinton said.

    Parent

    See whaterver you like (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:43:37 AM EST
    What actions were taken to effect regime change?

    None.

    Please deal with reality.

    Parent

    So your argument is (none / 0) (#46)
    by Rojas on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:04:46 PM EST
    We had no Iraq policy for eight years?

    Parent
    We had a containment strategy (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:29:28 PM EST
    And it worked.

    Do you have a problem with reading comprehnsion?

    Parent

    I'll admit (none / 0) (#76)
    by Rojas on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:16:53 PM EST
    to having a hard time comprehending what is not stated. And I'll conceed your talents are well beyond mine in that regard.

    Nonetheless, I'll give it a shot. You seem to be stating the clintons were powerless to stave off the humanatarian crisis because santions were bush 41 policy. Besides, they may have been really effective even with the huge loss of life. This was albrights position. Albright was hill's pick correct?

    And further, even though the stated clinton position on Iraq was regime change and although he pushed and recieved legislation and a billion dollars in funding to that end, the real, unstated policy was containment.

    Is that your point?

    Parent

    correction (none / 0) (#87)
    by Rojas on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:38:11 PM EST
    100 million NOT 1 billion

    Parent
    Misunderstanding? (none / 0) (#49)
    by lordhungus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:16:25 PM EST
    BTD, you might be mistaking your Clintons. Rojas is correct insofar as the Iraq Liberation Act was established by Bill Clinton in 1998, thereafter frequently cited by Dubya as impetus.

    I should also note that "regime change" was only one of many talking points used by the current administration in the run-up. Let's not so soon forget Condi's Magic Mushroom clouds and the Saddam-bin Laden link, etc.

    Perhaps in 1998 there was substantive intel about WMDs, but we'll never really know.

    Parent

    Nonsense (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:28:41 PM EST
    An EMPTY nonbinding resolution in 1998 had NO EFFECT on policy.

    You folks bneed something better than this.

    There WAS NO TALK, NONE, ZERO, of invading Iraq during the Clinton Administration.

    You are making things up now.

    Parent

    Sure... (none / 0) (#57)
    by lordhungus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:34:51 PM EST
    I'm not arguing it's efficacy, only it's existence which you seemed to be disputing.

    In league with it's efficacy, the resolution led to Operation Desert Fox (I could be mistaken on the name), the multi-day bombing campaign.

    I suppose I'm misunderstanding your larger point, however? As a matter of record, Bill Clinton was pro-regime change. If his efforts were weak in this regard, that's another matter.


    Parent

    I should add (none / 0) (#63)
    by lordhungus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:02:34 PM EST
    ...that to the larger point of the post, the 1998 bombing was largely ineffective and despite ample scuttlebutt of boots on the ground, Clinton balked at follow-up with real regime change. I'm skeptical whether this was a clear indication of a containment policy, than an indication that containment was a post-facto explanation for a half-hearted attempt at regime change.

    This, of course, did not stop Hillary from claiming this history as part of her "experience" and from later helping develop a deep relationship with Chalabi, round-about 2002. (Yikes.) Or seeking to defend Rumsfeld from critics in 2003 by stating that the presence of WMDs is "not in doubt." (Double yikes.)

    What's troubling to me is that for all her alleged experience, the quality of it is quite dubious. It's highlighted by a poor decision-making process, being that she seems prone to relying more on belief than on a vigorous review of intelligence.

    Parent

    Um, I have read that the 1998 bombing (none / 0) (#67)
    by MarkL on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:22:36 PM EST
    was quite effective. I don't know what your source is, but I don't believe that what you say is undisputed.

    Parent
    Any (none / 0) (#73)
    by lordhungus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:45:44 PM EST
    Depends what the meaning of "is" is, eh?  ; )

    As a sabre-rattling exercise, it was indeed effective.

    "Effective" is this thread, as far as I was using the term, was in relation to the notion of regime change. In that sense, it was hardly so.

    If you are meaning that the bombing was effective in a containment strategy, that may be true ... but only through the prism of regime change that was so heavily floated, if only rhetorically, at the time.

    Further, the operation boosted anti-US sentiment in that corner of the world (and not out of support for Saddam per se).

    On a related note, I found this FPIF write-up to be informative. Make of it what you will.

    Regardless, I am curious how you mean the campaign was effective?

    Parent

    We're speaking about Iraq, right? (none / 0) (#75)
    by MarkL on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:00:30 PM EST
    Just wanted to make sure.
    I have read that it was materially effective in destroying weapons-producing capability.


    Parent
    I have to disagree (none / 0) (#74)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:47:52 PM EST
    The fact that the US wanted regime change during Bill Clinton's presidency doesn't translate to actions with the clear intent to effect regime change. The only actions which could create regime change would be assassination or invasion. Bill Clinton did neither.

    The bombing campaign was part of a containment strategy, not a regime change strategy. No-one in the right mind thought the bombing campaign would effect regime change. Certainly not Bill Clinton.

    Parent

    Hmm (none / 0) (#78)
    by lordhungus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:29:33 PM EST
    The shortest possible way I can convey my thought is: BIll is known for being shifty for a reason; dual containment may have been frequently floated by Albright and others, but Bill himself and the Cabinet constantly raised the specter of regime change. If anything, BIll hedged one way or the other, and chose a military strike that had dubious historical effect.  He was heavily influenced by Daschle and the others who supported the resolution.

    That said, we can agree to disagree on the "effectiveness" of the bombing campaign, regardless a matter of containment, regime change, or anything else. As one foreign policy writer has stated, it did little more than "bounce rubble."  The IAEA, for what it's worth, confirmed this later on.

    And, if it was unclear, I was a big Bill supporter overall. I have concerns with the long-term effects of his foreign policy ... especially how that helped shape Hillary's views. So the historical details are worth a debate, just not necessarily here, unless it's regarding how we might evaluate Hillary's experience. OK?

    Parent

    Regime change by bombing ineffective strategy. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:25:01 PM EST
    Regime change by bombing is like trying to fertilize crops with pollution. It isn't going to have the desired effect.

    Bill Clinton was one crafty (shifty, if you prefer) politician. I think it safe to say he knew regime change by bombing would be an ineffective strategy. Bombing could be useful in a containment strategy by destroying offensive capability. Occum's razor suggests Clinton was attempting containment, not regime change. If he truly wanted regime change he would have instituted a strategy to effect regime change.

    Parent

    His speech the day of the bombing (none / 0) (#79)
    by Rojas on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:30:20 PM EST
    The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

    The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.



    Parent
    This would be more effective than mere bombing (none / 0) (#86)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:29:55 PM EST
    We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.

    Got any actual evidence of US  engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces during President Clinton's term?

    Parent

    What bill said (none / 0) (#90)
    by Rojas on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:55:40 PM EST

    n the meantime, while the United States continues to look to the Security Council's efforts to keep the current regime's behavior in check, we look forward to new leadership in Iraq that has the support of the Iraqi people. The United States is providing support to opposition groups from all sectors of the Iraqi community that could lead to a popularly supported government.


    Parent
    I presume this statement is your evidence (none / 0) (#92)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 04:56:23 PM EST
    The United States is providing support to opposition groups from all sectors of the Iraqi community that could lead to a popularly supported government.

    So far you have shown Clinton said we looked forward to new leadship, claimed we were supporting opposition groups. Do you have any evidence that such support was actually provided?

    I should note most of us look forward to new leadership in Washington,  some of us have provided support to opposition groups such as Move-On and the Democratic party. Does that mean we support armed insurrection?

    Please don't just copy urls for links. Highlight the word or phrase you want the link to connect to. Use that little button that looks like a link in a chain, paste your link there an click ok.

    Parent

    As I said (none / 0) (#93)
    by Rojas on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 05:31:46 PM EST
    Bill claimed we were supporting oposition groups. If you read the link which is his statement upon signing the Iraq Liberation Act
    he claims the process had already begain from a previous appropriation. The act provided for an additional 100 million in funding. Specifically for
    (2) MILITARY ASSISTANCE- (A) The President is authorized to direct the drawdown of defense articles from the stocks of the Department of Defense, defense services of the Department of Defense, and military education and training for such organizations.

    Thanks for the info on the link. I think I have it right now.

    Parent

    The transcript of Hillary's MTP statement (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:11:36 AM EST
    CLINTON: What he was talking about was very directly about the story of Sen. Obama's campaign, being premised on a speech he gave in 2002 and that was to his credit. He gave a speech opposing the war in Iraq. He gave a very impassioned speech against it and consistently said that he was against the war, he would vote against the funding for the war. By 2003, that speech was off his website. By 2004, he was saying that he didn't really disagree with the way George Bush was conducting the war. And by 2005, 6, and 7, he was voting for $300 billion in funding for the war. The story of his campaign is really the story of that speech and his opposition to Iraq. I think it is fair to ask questions about, what did you do after the speech was over? And when he became a senator, he didn't go to the floor of the Senate to condemn the war in Iraq for 18 months. He didn't introduce legislation against the war in Iraq. He voted against timelines and deadlines initially. So I think it's important that we get the contrast and the comparisons out. I think that's fair game. [Meet the Press, 1/13/07]


    Scott Ritter (none / 0) (#30)
    by Rojas on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:14:10 AM EST
    www.commondreams.org/views07/0303-23.htm

    Parent
    Assuming Hillary Clinton (none / 0) (#70)
    by oculus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:39:57 PM EST
    said all this w/o notes and the content is correct, I really hope she is elected Pres.  What a pleasure it will be to listen to a person of obvious intelligence speak to the nation.  

    Parent
    The specifics behind Hillary's statement (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:16:02 AM EST
    On her website:  First, what Bill Clinton said:

    It is wrong that Senator Obama got to go through 15 debates trumpeting his superior judgment and how he has been against the war every year, enumerating the years, and never got asked one time -- not once -- well, how could you say that when you said in 2004 you didn't know how you would have voted on the resolution, you said in 2004 there was no difference between you and George Bush on the war, and you took that speech you're now running on off your Web site in 2004, and there is no difference in your voting record and Hillary's ever since.

    Then her recitation of events:

    In 2004, Sen. Obama said he didn't know how he would have voted on the Iraq War resolution.

       `When asked about Senators Kerry and Edwards' votes on the Iraq war, Obama said, "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,' Mr. Obama said. `What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.'

    In 2004, Sen. Obama also said there was little difference between his position and George Bush's position on Iraq:

       In a meeting with Chicago Tribune reporters at the Democratic National Convention, Obama said, "On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago. [...] There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage." [Chicago Tribune, 07/27/04]

    While running for Senate, Sen. Obama acknowledged that he took his anti-war speech off his campaign website, calling it "dated":

       Specifically, State Senator Obama maintains that an October 2002 anti-war speech was removed from his campaign web site because "the speech was dated once the formal phase of the war was over, and my staff's desire to continually provide fresh news clips."

    Finally, Sen. Obama and Hillary have almost identical voting records on Iraq:

       In fact, Obama's Senate voting record on Iraq is nearly identical to Clinton's. Over the two years Obama has been in the Senate, the only Iraq-related vote on which they differed was the confirmation earlier this year of General George Casey to be Chief of Staff of the Army, which Obama voted for and Clinton voted against. [ABC News, 5/17/07]


    How about Hillarys specific '04 statements? (none / 0) (#43)
    by phedeen on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:55:57 AM EST

    What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.'

    Glad to see you finally showed the whole quote. HRC wants to use this statement to say Obama had the same stance as she? Looks to me like he still said that the case was not made to him, but he didn't want to challenge his party's nominees, so he hedged on a hypothetical.

    I'm still waiting to see the quotes from HRC that show that that her stance was "no different" from Obamas. I suspect if they haven't been posted here on TalkHillary, they don't exist.

    Parent

    The 2002 vote was the one that really mattered (none / 0) (#35)
    by tommyg on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:38:50 AM EST
    That was the big decision.  The decision of whether or not to go to war.

    Hillary and her defenders try to make that vote seem equivalent to all the other votes that came afterward about whether to fund the war and how to withdraw.  But the fact is that every Democratic Senator voted for funding.  No one was for an immediate withdrawal right after we went in.  And even after some changed their mind on those points, there has never been broad agreement among war opponents on those matters.

    Meanwhile, the IWR vote was as clear a vote as you're ever going to see.  

    Actually (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:42:31 AM EST
    What really MATTERED was trying to end the war by not funding it after the 2006 election.

    The IWR passed 77-23.

    It was not even close, thanks to Obama supporters like Ben Nelson.

    Parent

    ouch! (none / 0) (#40)
    by andgarden on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:45:29 AM EST
    And how close were the defunding votes again? (none / 0) (#41)
    by tommyg on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:45:33 AM EST
    Why did it only matter "after the 2006 election"?

    I think you're starting to get blinded by your opposition to Obama.

    Parent

    Closer than the IWR vote (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:26:52 PM EST
    And if Obama had led on the issue, maybe evne closer.

    It was a failoure of leadership from BOTH Obama and Clinton.

    Parent

    Something overlooked? (none / 0) (#44)
    by lordhungus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:03:29 PM EST
    One thing I find disturbing is the amount of attention given to Obama's statement that he didn't want to publicly criticize existing Dem leaders' choice. I think that's fine and fair.

    But what I don't see mentioned, if not very carefully avoided by Hillary, is that he emphasized the need to weigh intelligence (intel he did not have) before making a critical decision, especially in such a highly emotional moment.

    IMHO, that is perhaps the most critical piece that is also the most un-discussed. By contrast, Hillary's explanation makes little sense, and is very disheartening.

    And I don't mean to rah-rah-rah, but I am a bit distressed that some think his call for the 16 Senate votes was naive. I saw it as a focused effort to target GOP incumbents in an effort to gain momentum towards the necessary 68 in the House. Would that 68 have happened? Probably not. But it most certainly would have created, at the minimum, a serious discussion likely to be picked up by the press, exerting pressure. If anything is naive, it's to assume that Obama isn't smart enough to know this.

    Umm (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:25:48 PM EST
    I think that would undermine his judgment argument.

    He had no access to the intelligence.

    So what can we male of his judgment then?

    Parent

    The point being (none / 0) (#66)
    by lordhungus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:20:36 PM EST
    He wouldn't vote for war without a review of the intelligence first. That he did not have access to it is incidental to the larger point of absence of deliberation on the whole.

    To answer your question, that tells me his judgement in matters as serious as war, especially unprovoked / preemptive war, is one marked by a need to thoroughly vet the situation, or, at the very least, to not be blindly consumed by the the rush to war.

    Parent

    That point means what? (none / 0) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:38:31 PM EST
    It means his judgment was not made with the benefit of the intelligence.

    It completely undermines his point.

    Parent

    Whoops (none / 0) (#94)
    by lordhungus on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:03:57 PM EST
    Damned phantom entry...

    Just saying that we'll agree to disagree on this one. Enjoy!

    Parent

    Fact check (none / 0) (#45)
    by bob fertik on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:04:30 PM EST
    It took Chris Dodd to force BOTH Clinton and Obama to embrace the NOT funding approach.
    When did either Clinton or Obama embrace NOT funding? As far as I know, only Kucinich and 5 other House Democrats have voted against any funding at all for Iraq.

    You are wrong (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:24:35 PM EST
    Clinton and Obama BOTH voted against funding for the Iraq War.

    Parent
    To the New commenters here (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:25:03 PM EST
    TalkLeft's blogging platform does not accommodate long urls. It skews the site. It also only gives me the choice of deleting comments, not editing them.

    If your comment contains a url that is not in html format, and it exceeds the box, it will be deleted.

    There is a link button at the top of the comment box in which you can paste your url.  Please use it.

    Thanks.

    I agree completely (none / 0) (#65)
    by chemoelectric on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 01:18:38 PM EST
    You speak for me, as well, and I thank you for introducing me to the Dodd candidacy, to which I gave my support after Edwards's "getting out of Iraq" turned out to mean "staying in Iraq".

    (I'm back with Edwards now, and with Obama more than with Clinton, although I think Obama is immature for his age.)

    o/t screed deleted (none / 0) (#77)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:29:01 PM EST
    I deleted an off-topic rant for John Edwards and an Edwards-Obama ticket that had nothing to do with the  topic of this thread....Obama and Hillary on the war in Iraq.

    Hillary's position is that she and Obama (none / 0) (#80)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:33:33 PM EST
    have virtually identical records on the war. I just got off a Clinton campaign press conference call. It was not for Hillary supporters but the press. Andrea Mitchell was on and asked two questions. Fox News and Josh Gerstein were also on. I will try to write it up later tonight as a separate post  or else put the highlights in comments here. Speaking on the call were Rep. Tim McGovern and Jamie Rubin.

    They addressed the NIE and the caveat and troop withdrawal.

    I missed it (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:34:22 PM EST
    The surge worked! Thanks to Sen. Clinton. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:21:55 PM EST

    MR. RUSSERT: If General Petraeus says, "Senator, in September you called the surge the suspension of belief. It has worked, and you know it's worked"--let me finish--"you can see on the ground. I'm saying to you, Senator, or president-elect Clinton, don't destroy Iraq. It's working, the surge is working. Keep troops there just a few more months to get this reconciliation complete."

    SEN. CLINTON: ...The point of the surge was to quickly move the Iraqi government and Iraqi people. That is only now beginning to happen, and I believe in large measure because the Iraqi government, they watch us, they listen to us. I know very well that they follow everything that I say. And my commitment to begin withdrawing our troops in January of 2009 is a big factor, as it is with Senator Obama, Senator Edwards, those of us on the Democratic side. It is a big factor in pushing the Iraqi government to finally do what they should have been doing all along.  

    What arrogance.