home

Pitching Edwards And His Supporters: Health Care Coverage

By Big Tent Democrat

In the battle for gaining the support of John Edwards and his supporters, Hillary Clinton has one big advantage - the health care issue. A review of the respective plans demonstrates that Hillary Clinton is quite close to John Edwards while Barack Obama fundamentally differs on the issue of mandates. Last November, Ezra Klein wrote:
. . . The short version of the argument is that Obama's plan has no mandate at all, meaning it has no mechanism through which to achieve universal coverage, and Hillary Clinton's plan has an undefined mandate, meaning we don't know how it will achieve universal coverage. Clinton's position is better, but it's still a bit vague. Later today, John Edwards will announce the specifics of how his mandate works. . . .
(Emphasis supplied.) It is interesting how much of the wonkosphere has gone silent on this difference between Obama and Clinton. Take for instance, Ezra Klein's post mortem on Edwards:

"[Edwards'] insistence on centering his campaign around a bold vision for health care reform bettered the campaigns of his opponents.
But who's plan is better? I do not pretend to know. I DO know that people like Ezra Klein spent a lot of time arguing how important mandates were. And how important the health care issue is. But when it comes to choosing between Clinton and Obama, it turns out the issue does not matter at all it seems. So which is it? Important or not? Will it be important to John Edwards? His supporters? Apparently it is not important anymore to some in the wonkosphere.
< Hillary Says Obama Distorted Her Record Today in Denver | Double Standards >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    The initial tip to Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:05:56 AM EST
    This was what made her for me the second choice from Edwards. I feel that Obama already took off the negotiating table a very important aspect, universal coverage. His plan basically has a "free market"tone, of if it's cheap enough, they will buy it so everyone can be covered. This is where my fights with Obama supporters started. I just don't get the progressive in this.

    I don't know about others (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:28:47 AM EST
    but I literally cannot live without health care...I don't have it now...am considered uninsurable....have too many assets in my home to qualify for welfare...so my husband and i are paying fully 30% of our monthly income on bills right now and medicine...this cannot keep up....we are slowly going thru our worth....plus I cannot afford the extremely expensive cancer treatments that I need...I am indeed one of those Americans that cannot afford to live....I started out with health care....didnt help...had a cap on it and so that maxed out...then they cancelled me....and believe me that 80% 20% split is awful when your last heart surgery cost $128,000...try paying 20% of that and then get cancelled...So in effect, I am not arguing for just a candidate here, I am arguing for my very life...

    Parent
    That's fair (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by spit on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:01:43 PM EST
    but I don't see how this happens:

    of controlling and focusing on our free market economy to drive prices down, at least to very reasonable levels

    without broadening the risk pool to include vastly more healthy people paying in, and vastly more people getting care for problems earlier rather than later. That's a lot of the point of a mandate.

    What I see in Obama's plan is yes, the subsidies, but otherwise that it creates the national health plan with guaranteed eligibility, which is dandy and all, but it says nothing really about how costs even in that plan are going to be held under control except essentially through "increasing competition" -- he has to just sort of hope that huge numbers of healthy young Americans sign up for the plan in order to keep its costs down. Correct me if I'm missing something.

    Parent

    I Worked In The Insurance Industry For (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:35:10 PM EST
    a number of years. There is no way any insurance based plan can work without a diverse pool. A plan that only insures people who need to use the services the most is a sure fire way to guarantee that the program will fail because it will cost prohibited. That would guarantee  that any form of universal insurance would be off the table for decades to come IMO.

    Parent
    Completely agreed (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by spit on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:52:42 PM EST
    and if the diverse pool doesn't appear all on its own to start the cycle of cost reduction --> greater enrollment -- which I'm very dubious about -- I don't see a plan B, really.

    Parent
    One problem (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by hookfan on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:13:44 PM EST
    I have with the free market idea to make insurance affordable is the insurance industry doesn't compete on the basis of price. They compete on limiting exposure to risk. the result is not cheaper insurance through competition, but less coverage and more expensive insurance. I don't see how the free market approach helps unless the insurance industry is completely reworked.

    Even if one allows the government to negotiate price it won't help unless one also establishes mandatory breadth of coverage, or the industry will protect itself from exposure to risk by limiting who or what conditions it covers.

    For profit insurance industry, with overlapping, duplicating management systems is a bust in my opinion.

    Parent

    One problem.... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:22:36 PM EST
    employers always can find a way around the requirement when it become too cost prohibitive.

    2 part timers replacing a full timer, for example.

    Parent

    That Is SOP Already To Get Around (none / 0) (#63)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:36:29 PM EST
    paying benefits.

    Parent
    Absolutely.... (none / 0) (#72)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:14:31 PM EST
    and Obama's plan fails to address it.

    While Hillary's plan doesn't specify what happens to people who ignore the mandate.  Are they criminals?  Will they be refused care at the emergency room?


    Parent

    Edwards Suggested Several Ways That A (none / 0) (#81)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:48:41 PM EST
    mandate could possibly work that did not refuse care or include criminal penalties. Withhold income tax refunds, garnish wages were a couple first mentioned.  The last maybe most viable way he proposed that individuals be required to show proof of insurance when filing income taxes or receiving health care. If they don't have insurance, they won't be penalized -- they'll be automatically enrolled in an insurance plan.

    I don't know whether or not Hillary is considering these options. I have to admit I'm more familiar with Edwards' policies.

    IIRC, Obama's plan requires that all parents insure their children. While I will admit that MOST parents would prefer to do this, I'm not sure how he plans to enforce noncompliance if they opt out for any reason.

    Parent

    I take it you were not an Edwards supporter? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:44:58 AM EST
    Fair enough (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:51:22 AM EST
    Mandates (none / 0) (#23)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:49:15 AM EST
    The reason the German system and the French system work is mandates. Krugman wrote a column on this: Krugman

    Parent
    what is debatable? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:55:18 AM EST
    For sure they have policy issues and they are tweaking them. In France and Germany it's a mandated system. People pay, it's not free. People have health insurance, people have health care. Is it perfect, no. But ours is certainly not. If you start from scratch you have to have everyone in the risk pool. That is how insurance works, it's a pool.

    Parent
    i agree there needs to be a pool. (none / 0) (#30)
    by hellothere on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:58:22 AM EST
    The French (none / 0) (#36)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:05:47 PM EST
    Have a lot of structural problems with their economy that have nothing to do with healthcare.  France's biggest problems relate to productivity and a stubborn unemployment rate.  

    Parent
    as someone who lived in Europe (none / 0) (#73)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:16:05 PM EST
    The reason the French system is failing is because they cover new immigrants, yet they do not allow the immigrants to work.  You have to live in France for two years and learn to be fluent in the language before you can even apply for a job.  In German, immigration is also a problem because there are many restrictions on new workers.  So, you have a very high population of unemployed people who are benefitting from the social systems without contributing into them.  Now, contrast that with countries like Ireland, where they make it very easy for immigrants to get jobs, and you see that they are one of the most stable countries in the EU right now.

    Scandinavian countries have the highest quality of life ratings of any others in the world, yet they are the most highly taxed.  They live longer.  They are healthier.  Their infant mortality rate is much lower.  It is also really incredibly hard for infertile couples to adopt because the social safety net is so good that parents rarely give up their children to the state.

    Americans DO have universal healthcare to a certain degree.  When a person who is uninsured goes into a hospital and gets treatment, the government pays for it.  I've seen studies where Americans without insurance actually get better treatment and end up paying nothing for it.

    Parent

    yup. (none / 0) (#84)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:04:19 PM EST
    Americans DO have universal healthcare to a certain degree.  When a person who is uninsured goes into a hospital and gets treatment, the government pays for it.


    Parent
    Disagree - The Government Does Not Pay For It (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:40:42 PM EST
    When a person who is uninsured goes into a hospital and gets treatment, every person who pays health insurance premiums pays for it. That along with the profit margin is why health care in this country is so high.

    Treatment of the uninsured is factored into all fees charged for any type of health care. This includes everything from doctors fees, hospital care and even aspirins and bandages. As these costs increase, the cost of insurance premiums increase.

    So if you pay any type of premium for health care, you are already paying for the uninsured.

    Parent

    MO Blue (none / 0) (#105)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:00:13 PM EST
    I totally agree with what you are saying (it's like shoplifting: the store just marks up everything to make up for loss and we all pay for it) but the government (federal and state) does in fact pay hospitals for taking care of the poor and indigent.  

    But, I think we both are making the same point: We already pay for it, so don't say there is no universal healthcare in America.

    Parent

    In LA County, anyway, (none / 0) (#108)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:07:48 PM EST
    if you go to a private hospital with a non-life threatening problem and have no insurance, you get often sent to county hospitals.

    After the care the hospital tries to work out a payment plan for you. The plans are, in my experience, very reasonable.

    If you can't/won't pay, the county does. I assume the county hospitals get at least some funding from the state and feds, but I'm not sure.

    Parent

    ...some funding from the state and feds (none / 0) (#111)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:15:15 PM EST
    in addition to their primary funding from the county tax base...

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:26:31 AM EST
    What's amusing is that I've seen very few Hillary supporter who disagree with mandates, or Obama supporters who agree with mandates.  On such a wonky difference, it's amazing how everyone's policy preferences just happen to agree with their chosen candidate.

    The argument I get from Obama (none / 0) (#5)
    by Teresa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:29:24 AM EST
    supporters is "my rent or house payment is too high and I can't afford insurance.  I don't want someone telling me I HAVE to buy insurance. We need single payer, not this stuff."

    I don't know how they think single payer will be free.

    Parent

    Steve nails it (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:33:43 AM EST
    Most folks are for the programs THEIR candidate supports.

    But people like Ezra Klein pretend to be better than that.

    It is all a charade.

    Parent

    mandates (none / 0) (#74)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:23:11 PM EST
    I think that what was proven in Mass was that a lot of the people who did not have insurance were young men who could easily afford it, but found other things to waste money on, like motorcycles and video games.  A high percentage of the emergency room admittals came from this pool of high risk-takers.

    Considering these young men are a good chunk of Obama's supporters, I'm not surprised he is against mandates.

    According to Hillary Clinton, her plan offers everyone the option to get into the same insurance program that Congress has.

    Parent

    In defense of young men.... (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:31:25 PM EST
    when I was uninsured for a few years it wasn't because I bought a rice burner, it was because I was struggling with food, rent, etc.

    If I pooled all the funds I spent on vice back then I still couldn't afford insurance.  I'd imagine it's even harder now for young working folks.


    Parent

    I do not know about the issue (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:30:18 AM EST
    to have an opinion on it. MORE than that, I am highly skeptical of ALL campaign plans.

    But a lot of people pretened to care about this. Number One was one Ezra Klein.

    There is something truly disingenuous about his forgetting this issue.

    Parent

    Not so (none / 0) (#82)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:51:34 PM EST
    Actually, my main reason for deciding to support Hillary was BECAUSE of her health care proposal. I didn't support her first then decide I liked it. So I think you're wrong. Many of us choose a candidate based on the issues. I would hope that most of us do.

    I would guess that where people stand on health care has a lot to do with their personal situation. If you are young and get health care at your job, it isn't a big issue with you. If you are older and have to find your own, or already have health issues that aren't being covered, or make you uninsurable - then it is a bread and butter issue for you. I have to buy my own, and every year I see a big jump in my premiums. My premium is easily my second highest living expense, right after my mortgage payment. And I am in excellent health. (If I weren't, I have no doubt that no one would insure me, as I am 54).

    What younger people need to keep in mind, though, is that you won't be young and healthy forever. Your parents especially won't. Are you ready to practically go bankrupt trying to help your parents pay health care costs when their policies get dropped because they get sick, or get cancer, or have a heart attack, or need an operation? If we don't get mandates and everyone covered, this will happen. It will affect you at some point in your life. If we don't change this now, it will never happen.


    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#89)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:17:16 PM EST
    I do not think many people chose a candidate primarily because of the mandate issue, but I salute you for having such a sharp eye for the policy details.

    Parent
    Obviously I'm biased... (none / 0) (#110)
    by OrangeFur on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:13:53 PM EST
    But given that pretty much all Democrats believe in universal health care in principle, and that Edwards, Richardson, and Clinton all proposed mandates, that Obama's supporters believe in his "mandates for adults are government intrusion but mandates for kids are awesome" platform is more telling than the fact that everyone else's supporters think mandates are a good idea.

    Parent
    Universal (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by eric on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:28:48 AM EST
    It needs to be universal.  If Edwards people do support Obama, its because they are willing to compromise on universality.  I don't think I am, but I am not sure which way I go right now.

    The difference is not important to me (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:32:13 AM EST
    simply because I have no way of knowing how important it is. Moreover, I never pay that much attention to the 100 popint policy papers campaigns churn out.

    The hypocritical disengenuousness of people like Ezra Klein bothers me a great deal though.

    Parent

    or... (none / 0) (#8)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:33:36 AM EST
    ... maybe they just believe that there is more than one issue to deal with and consider when choosing who to vote for.

    Parent
    I think they choose the candidate (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:34:59 AM EST
    and then tailor their views on issues to fit the views of the candidate they support.

    Not just Obama supporters, but all of them.

    But Ezra Klein is supposed to be different it seems to me.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#11)
    by eric on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:35:57 AM EST
    Yes, exactly.  I am not saying it is wrong, I am just saying that Edwards really stressed the universality idea.  It's fine if you don't think that is a deal breaker - there are lots of important issues.

    Parent
    Perhaps it is the age (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:42:20 AM EST
    that is driving this debate...Because youth supports Obama, and they are rarely if ever ill, they can afford to be more cavalier about health care...However the older people have usually dealt with at least one serious illness or one accident...Big difference...depends on whose ox is being gored....

    On one hand I think she speaks more (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:38:27 PM EST
    decisively than Obama does.  All that flowery stuff just frightens me sometimes because of its lack of tangibleness.  She was my second choice though after Edwards according to the candidate test that Jeralyn put up.  I believe it was what I'm looking for healthcarewise that placed her there on that quiz for me.  Pertaining to my life experience right now the healthcare issue is becoming more and more prominent because we have so many friends who aren't doing so well mental healthwise and it seems like it is always a fight to get our veterans cared for.  Ten years from now how are our Iraq and Afghan Vets going to be doing?  With mandated healthcare some of that fight is over and the only fight remaining is to ensure that they receive care that is affective whenever possible.  Not all PTSD responds to treatment but our vets need everything in our arsenal that could help them have quality of life after their service.

    So you (none / 0) (#106)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:04:29 PM EST
    want veterens turned over with the rest of the people to the new gov't mandated health care.  Don't tell your neighbors.  There will be riots.  

    Parent
    Ha, I guess you weren't at the (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    Hail and Farewell last night in Daleville AL at the VFW where troops put on a skit about how they used to have actual real healthcare on post but no more.  Troop military healthcare is a joke now and though I could be Tricare Prime and 100% paid for I'm Tricare Standard so I can see private doctors in the real world and pay 20% to get real healthcare that really works.  I have no idea what neighbors of mine you are talking about.  One of my best friends is married to a Captain who came home from Iraq with a vicious toenail fungus that was causing him to completely lose his toenails.  They live about four blocks down the street right now.  It was ignored until he couldn't preform P.T. properly and after six months he is now finally on the most aggressive treatment for fungus and it is finally beginning to clear.  And they only got serious when he was classified nondeployable because he has no toenails!  In the meantime, packing around this untreated evil that he kept seeking treatment for, he gave it to his wife who is now fighting tooth and no nails because hers are falling off to get proper treatment.  The treatment is around a $100 per pill but it will probably be just as long for her to get all of the Tricare approval she'll need to get the necessary meds even though a civilian doctor wrote her a perscription for those meds!  Tricare is challenging it!  Don't tell me what my neighbors are going to riot about.......lay off the crack pipe!

    Parent
    With Clinton (none / 0) (#12)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:37:33 AM EST
    Mandates are for Citizens not for Business WaPo:

    "That's why in my plan what I want to do is to help small businesses to see whether they can afford health care, not to mandate it but to offer them a healthcare tax credit that will enable them to look at their books and figure out whether their healthcare is affordable," she said during a luncheon in the Senate Hart office building. "All of a sudden you're part of a big national group and therefore the price comes down. And between the price coming down and the choices available and the healthcare tax credit we might be able to move up the percentage of small businesses that can afford it."

    Essentially, Clinton and Obama have two different approaches which policy experts, when pushed, agree are equally likely to be effective as policy.

    Clinton has mandates for citizens, and incentives but no mandates for business.

    Obama has mandates for all but the smallest of businesses, but no mandates for citizens.

    Look at Clinton's rhetoric when speaking to small businesspeople. She's saying she's going to drive the costs down...and more small businesses will be able to afford it.  (Familiar rhetoric...it's what Barack says to the American people.)

    Note, when talking to businesses, Clinton uses anti-mandate rhetoric.

    This comes down to politics. Clinton is betting her entire premise of Universal Health Coverage on Individual Mandates. On a plan that gets called The America Health Choices Plan but which, every newspaper will report, means that you have NO CHOICE but to buy insurance.

    Obama says, "Let's make health care affordable and people will buy it." All but the smallest businesses MUST contribute per Obama, but citizens not as the first step.

    Which plan is more effective as policy or politics...you decide.  But pay very close attention to Clinton's language in that speech. Why are mandates bad for business but okay for the public?

    Idle question: when you tell someone in a sub-prime mess that they HAVE TO add a monthly bill but that they will get a "tax credit" eventually to help defray the costs of that "individual mandate", do you think they will support your program?

    Obama's Framing on Mandates (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:51:30 AM EST
    is going to hurt his plan because, as you point out his plan has mandates.  So, he's already given opposition to his plan credence and it's still the primary.

    This is what bothers me most about Obama, he gives up more in the framing than he seems to realize.  By going after Clinton on mandates, he's opened his own plan up for attack using his own words.  

    It's also not surprising to me that Obama supporters are against mandates.  Young, healthy people with means are the most likely to opt out of buying health insurance - not because they can't afford it, but because they don't think they need it.  When Obama says that everyone would buy healthcare if they could, he's simply being disingenuous.  He's too smart not to know that isn't true.

    Clinton's supporters tend to come from demos that need health insurance and I don't think they care about mandates as much because if they could get insurance that they could afford, which Clinton promises through subsidies, they would.  She also draws strongly from lower income folks who may not have long-term employment and may not be interested in employer mandates - since they may switch jobs more often.  People like stability in their healthcare.  If switching jobs means switching doctors, they are not going to like it.

    Parent

    Obama (none / 0) (#35)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:03:40 PM EST
    is for mandating all but the smallest business offer insurance or contribute to a payroll fund.

    He is for mandating coverage for all children with a way of getting "grown kids" some coverage to age 25.

    He is for an aggressive push to regulate the insurance industry so that "guaranteed eligibility" is the norm.

    His top policy advisor is a sharp, well-respected Harvard Economist named David Cutler (who Clinton's advisors express respect for.)

    Obama takes up Kerry's national catatrophic coverage plan.

    Cutler and Obama do not rule out individual mandates. But they do not push them as the first policy step.

    That's smart politics. You can argue the apporaches and still be for Universal Health Care...which we all are shooting for.

    And, yes, Obama is endorsed by Senator Ted Kennedy who has made this issue one his life long concerns in the Senate.

    There are fair arguments on Obama's side if people are willing to look.

    Parent

    It Is Not Smart Politics (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:09:07 PM EST
    Obama has already given the opponents to healthcare reform the argument against his own plan.  All they have to do is quote him back at him on mandates.  

    Cutler may be a great economics advisor, but this is terrible politics.  

    Parent

    And you prefer (none / 0) (#48)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:36:57 PM EST
    the politics of arguing for America's Health Choices Plan?

    The headlines are already up, and they are not about "choice":

    Clinton Unveils Mandatory Health Care Insurance Plan

    Mandates for citizens but not for industry is not, imo, good politics.

    Parent

    I know that (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:26:58 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton worked to get health coverage for national guard members where they had none.  That proves to me that she is serious about healthcare.  She also wants an education GI Bill to help returning vets.

    Parent
    Senator Kennedy worked (none / 0) (#78)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:36:47 PM EST
    equally hard on health care. S-CHIP was his bill. (Well, his and Orrin Hatch's.) He's thrown his endorsement to Senator Obama. He's not being dishonest with that. That's his choice.

    My point is that there is an intellectually honest disagreement about policy and politics between Clinton and Obama.

    I quote Senator Clinton talking to small business people about mandates not to say..."She's disingenuous"...which was the implication of BTD's post about supporter's of Barack Obama...but instead to say that that quote represents her real views.

    If Senator Clinton were here now, she'd argue her side. For individual mandates, but NOT for employer mandates.

    We'll have a chance to hear this debated tonight. I am sure that Senator Clinton will persuasively argue for her side and people will make up their own minds.

    It's that smearing that I object to. Let's debate the facts with links and a discussion of what the policy actually means instead of smearing each other's motives all the time.

    Parent

    why would I care (none / 0) (#92)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:24:00 PM EST
    what Senator Kennedy did?  He isn't running for president.

    Tell me what Obama did, then I'll listen.

    Parent

    One thing he did (none / 0) (#99)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:48:22 PM EST
    was win Senator Kennedy's endorsement.

    Not a passive endorsement, an active one.

    Why is that? Senator Kennedy worked with First Lady Clinton advancing S-CHIP. When Bill Clinton killed it and First Lady Clinton supported that decision in speeches, Senator Kennedy kept going.

    A coalition of groups got behind S-CHIP and Senator Kennedy once again got the bill before Bill Clinton.  At that point, Hillary Clinton intervened decisively in S-CHIP's favor with the President, and Senator Kennedy thanked her for it.

    Now, at that exact same time, State Senator Barack Obama (WaPo) was passing Health Care Reform among other pieces of innovate legislation (NYT) in Illinois:


    With the assistance of Senator Jones, Mr. Obama helped deliver what is said to have been the first significant campaign finance reform law in Illinois in 25 years. He brought law enforcement groups around to back legislation requiring that homicide interrogations be taped and helped bring about passage of the state's first racial-profiling law. He was a chief sponsor of a law enhancing tax credits for the working poor, played a central role in negotiations over welfare reform and successfully pushed for increasing child care subsidies.

    "I learned that if you're willing to listen to people, it's possible to bridge a lot of the differences that dominate the national political debate," Mr. Obama said in an interview on Friday. "I pretty quickly got to form relationships with Republicans, with individuals from rural parts of the state, and we had a lot in common."

    Now, there's alot in those quotes that might have given Senator Kennedy reason to think that Senator Obama had, as you say, done something, that he was worthy of Senator Kennedy's endorsement for President.

    And Senator Kennedy knows what State Senator Obama was dealing with working across the aisle to make a difference in the lives of regular people...when Ted Kennedy passed S-CHIP he could only do it with the help of Orrin Hatch.

    Parent

    Wow! (none / 0) (#114)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:33:43 PM EST
    Senator Kennedy sounds great!  I think I'll vote for him!

    Parent
    Excuse me (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:42:08 AM EST
    "Essentially, Clinton and Obama have two different approaches which policy experts, when pushed, agree are equally likely to be effective as policy."

    Policy experts like Klein and the TNR guy expressly say the opposite.

    And most importantly, JOHN EDWARDS said the opposite.

    I have no idea who is right - it is not an issue I consider in my preferences. But A LOT of people pretended it was a big deal before but now have decided it is not.

    Why? Very simple. Hillary is the one carrying the issue.

    And let me be plain, I do no think you are "experts" really have much of a clue as to what is the better way to do this.

    So it is not about the issue per se for me.

    Parent

    When the NYT (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:53:28 AM EST
    did its piece puffing the Obama insurance plan, the only experts it sited, who all said his plan was as good as Clinton's, were either with the Obama campaign or the American Enterprise Institute.

    I don't know as mush about this issue as I should, but I know if I'm going to trust Paul Krugman's analysis a lot more than I'm going to trust AEI's.  

    Parent

    Once again (none / 0) (#29)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:56:06 AM EST
    BTD you leap, with no links, into straw man / ad hominem territory. The only reason I oppose individual mandates is my choice for President...??? This is a theme in post after post here. If you can't attack the argument with evidence you question the motive, if you can't question the motive you use ridicule.  God forbid we have a primary debate that involved links and arguments about policy and political persuasiveness!

    Let's look at an eminently pragmatic op/ed from Ron Brownstein:

    To cover most (but not all) of the roughly 45 million Americans without health insurance, Obama advances ideas that split the bill between individuals, government and business.

    His first step would be to require parents to insure their children. Then he proposes to expand eligibility for government programs for the poor and to offer subsidies to help other uninsured individuals buy coverage through a new, nationwide purchasing pool modeled on the insurance available to federal employees. Finally, Obama would require all but the smallest employers to provide insurance for workers or else pay about 6% of their payroll to help government fund the cost of covering those employees. That last proposal marks a crucial turn in the healthcare debate. [snip]

    Obama also revived the best policy idea of Sen. John F. Kerry's 2004 campaign: a proposal for Washington to fund most of the bill for high-cost patients once their annual healthcare bills exceed a fixed level. Shifting those catastrophic expenses to government would lower employer premiums. So might Obama's surprisingly sharp-edged proposals to limit insurance company profits.

    The best chance for reaching (or even nearing) universal healthcare coverage is a system of shared responsibility that requires government, individuals and business to all contribute.

    Disagree if you will, but that is persuasive rehtoric from well before the candidate wars suggesting that Senator Obama's approach was not without merit...or even...boldness.

    Parent

    frankly (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Klio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:14:06 PM EST
    you getting huffy about ad hominem [which is not what BTD did, but whatever] is really rich.

    I've been looking for you to tell you how disappointing it was to see you a few days ago at Marc Ambinder's place linking HRC to the that hideous Tracy Flick video.  Doesn't that count as ad hominem?  I know, I know, it was just too funny to pass up.  I thought it was juvenile.  And cruel. And misogynistic.  See what Jane wrote.

    I know you Pa/ul, and I respect your sincerity, your work, your passion -- your dKos diary after the 2004 loss sustained me! -- but I was disgusted to see you pushing that video.

    Parent

    In my view (none / 0) (#47)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:30:53 PM EST
    the proper response to Clinton's Victory Celebration in Florida was, imo, mockery.

    Simon Rosenberg expressed eloquent outrage:

    But there is a line in politics where tough and determined becomes craven and narcissistic, where advocacy becomes spin, and where integrity and principle are lost. I am concerned that this Florida gambit by the Clinton campaign is once again putting two of my political heroes too close - or perhaps over - that line.

    To me, that's too serious for what Clinton did. And it doesn't get at the core of what that sham event was really about.

    Going to Florida to hold a "Victory Party" was high school. It was gilding the lily. It was bending the rules while claiming to be "on the side of the people." Like so much of what Clinton does, it made the narrative all about her.

    It's like her website slogan: Make History.

    (Could Obama have that on the top of his website? Sure, but he chooses not to.)

    Now, that's what the character of Tracy Flick does. She personalize politics and overdoes things.

    If that comparison is not apt, then so be it. But I don't think it's misogynistic.

    What are we suppposed to do, only compare Clinton to ennobling and bold literary figures?

    Not if she is holding fake victory events in Florida. That's high school, and that's the point.

    Parent

    Did she not win in FL? (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by spit on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:38:13 PM EST
    Sure, there are no delegates out of it, but she won a large popular vote there. That's not meaningless, and if she wants to hold a "victory celebration", so what?

    Most of the BS that the media focuses on in elections is rather "high school", frankly. That's true of their coverage of every candidate. So-and-so said something about so-and-so, I heard somewhere. "Shrill". "Snub". "Conniving". What the hell ever.

    So she was trying to change the narrative to her campaign's benefit. That's what politicians do. All of them.

    Seriously, where's the "grave offense" or whatever it is that is so mockable here, other than that you don't like that she was trying to get some momentum back after SC (which is, again, how politics works)?

    Parent

    It was Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:48:56 PM EST
    that was the offense.

    Parent
    Probably correct (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by spit on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:00:54 PM EST
    what's funny about a lot of this stuff to me is that I was highly critical of both of the Clintons way before it was "cool", but the smallness of much of the rhetoric against Hillary has actually made me reanalyze a lot of my anger with them, to the point that I'm honestly utterly undecided as to how I'll vote next Tues. I used to be about as likely to vote for Clinton as I was to vote for a wombat -- now, I'm about equally likely to vote for her as for Obama. Not because I hate some of the supporters, but because the vapidity of some of the attacks has made me more willing to look at her with an open mind.

    Watching "people-powered" people try to disregard a huge popular vote because it doesn't benefit their chosen candidate is eye-opening, to say the least. How hard is it to say "hey, she won Florida, sorry 'bout the delegates, let's move on to Super Duper Tuesday"?

    I'll stop with the off topic now. I do tend to wander.

    Parent

    good Daily Howler on this (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:09:57 PM EST
    Except for the fact that I don't vote on 2/5 (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:16:12 PM EST
    I'm right with you.

    Parent
    Because she didn't "win" Florida (none / 0) (#95)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:31:10 PM EST
    The voters who went to the polls had not had any campaigning in their state. I mean, the whole point of a primary campaign is so that an informed electorate can make an educated choice between the candidates.

    To go and celebrate a Potemkin Victory makes a mockery of that value, and, after signing a pledge not to campaign and to accept that there would be no delegates, it's dishonest.

    Further, let's say the numbers are very close running to the convention and Florida might decide the outcome.

    What you're asking me to do, as a supporter of Barack Obama, is preemptively cede delegates to Senator Clinton by "agreeing" that she won a victory in Michigan or Florida?

    No way. Not on your life I won't. And it would make voters think that Barack Obama is a fool if he did so.

    It's a transparent move on Senator Clinton's part, and it will likely backfire more with SuperDelegates than it will help her campaign.

    But no, just because Senator Clinton celebrates victory doesn't mean she won anything.

    The voters in Florida were put in an impossible position by the State Party and the DNC.

    One can respect their participation, even as you find Senator Clinton's strategery to be a transparent sham.

    Parent

    The way you write this (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:55:19 PM EST
    Just makes it seem like you have contempt for the voters of Florida. You know, the people who voted of their own volition, some for Obama. Calling what happened a "Potemkin Victory" is, like Chris Matthews calling the election "illegal," insulting to the people who participated, none of whom were Hillary Clinton.

    Parent
    OK, let me try it this way (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by spit on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:56:20 PM EST
    for one, I just don't buy the idea that because nobody campaigned in FL, Clinton won on name recognition. Nobody historically has particularly campaigned in CA, because we were so late, or in WY, because they're so small, or so on, and yet somehow all of those wins or losses are still called wins or losses.

    A popular vote is a popular vote. Pretending that it is not a popular vote is petty.

    If the delegates are close enough for FL or MI to be somehow central, we're in for a mess regardless, and will probably have a backroom brokered kind of deal. Because otherwise, you're going to have democrats on the losing side calling the nominee illegitimate. That's been true since the delegates were pulled, not since Clinton won. My guess is that Dean and the DNC assumed it wouldn't be close, that we'd have a clear nominee near the end who could then graciously argue to seat those delegates.

    Regardless, here's the other point I want to make:

    nobody cares.

    Seriously. Outside of the blogosphere and the campaigns, nobody gives a rat's ass whether Clinton gave a victory speech. It's a political stunt, but you know, all victory speeches are political stunts, and most people don't pay all that much attention to this kind of crap. It's not totally out of bounds, as it had nothing to do with campaigning in FL, it's expected that she'd try to use a FL "win" to whatever advantage she might, and the only set of people that come out of this thing looking "high school" are those of you who think this is worth calling out as some sort of gigantic, terrible offense that should be mocked or hyperventilated over.

    Move on. Seriously. If the delegates are that close, we're going to have a nightmare whether you argue this point endlessly or no.

    Parent

    This is pretty weak (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by standingup on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:56:35 PM EST
    The voters who went to the polls had not had any campaigning in their state. I mean, the whole point of a primary campaign is so that an informed electorate can make an educated choice between the candidates.

    I am afraid this would disqualify the votes of many in the voters who will be voting on Feb 5.  There have been a couple of stops in my state but hardly anything that is worthy of serving to inform the electorate.  And I imagine the same is true for many of the states that will be voting next Tuesday.  There are a variety of ways that the voters receive information in addition to actively campaigning in a state, especially with so much attention being given to the primary elections in the national news, cable networks, debates, internet, etc.    

    Parent

    Re: (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:59:23 PM EST
    The only meaningful difference is that you can't canvass or GOTV with a campaigning ban in place (and surrogates did some of that anyway).

    The voters of Florida had plenty of access to the candidates via TV, print media and internet.  The idea that they weren't making an "informed" choice because the candidates didn't make personal appearances in the state is silly.  How many of the 1.5 million voters would have personally attended campaign events?

    I assume if it comes down to it Obama will have a better argument than "Sorry, Florida, I don't feel you made an educated choice."

    Parent

    precisely (none / 0) (#52)
    by Klio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:55:41 PM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    They all agreed not to campaign (none / 0) (#53)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:55:42 PM EST
    and that Florida and Michigan would count for zero delegates.

    Clinton chose to hold a "Victory Party"...ie. a campaign event...in which she promised to fight for Florida's delegates (again violating an agreement she made.)  

    I think Rosenberg is earnest but is almost too earnest. (Given his personal situation, he probably had to be.) I think ridicule (which is different in a political campaign than in a debate formate) is the more appropriate response. It was a sham event, and a bogus claim.

    The real issues I have are with the conduct of the Clinton campaign post-Iowa. I'm willing to be that historians will look at the strategies of Hillary/Penn/Bill/Carville/McAuliffe and pass a fairly harsh judgment on them.

    Bill's comment in SC will shape how every preceding action of the campaign post-Iowa will be viewed by history.

    I don't think the verdict will be kind.

    Parent

    How can a "victory party" (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by spit on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:09:25 PM EST
    be a campaign event when the campaign in FL is over?

    I do think her position re: FL delegates would have been stronger if she'd voiced it much earlier, but whatever. I don't see it as some kind of terrible offense. I think the DNC was pretty lame to remove all of the delegates, and I hope that doesn't bite us in the ass later. I expect that delegates will be seated in the end from both FL and MI unless they make the difference in a win, in which case now the convention will be an utter mess with no good solution.

    On your other stuff mentioned here, that's a fair enough point of view, but it has nothing to do with FL, delegates, "victory celebrations", or whatnot. I'm not a fan of attacking one thing because you're angry about something else. Maybe just me.

    Again, I'm leaving the off-topic behind now.

    Parent

    Easy (none / 0) (#67)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:50:22 PM EST
    people turn on their TV and someone is celebrating their victory.

    That was the whole point. She was celebrating winning zero delegates after having no debates, no door knocking, no lit drops, and no advocacy.

    It was fake.

    And she was campaigning because, suddenly, after NOT saying she was going to "fight for Floridians" she was suddenly claiming momentum and that she was "on their side."

    It didn't work. It was gilding the lily.

    Maybe she wins on Tuesday, maybe not.

    But people should be able to judged based on things other than Potemkin Parties.

    Parent

    If Obama won (none / 0) (#69)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:53:20 PM EST
    you are sure he would not have done the same? What makes you so sure of that?

    Parent
    Well that's the point of this whole post (none / 0) (#76)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:29:23 PM EST
    we only judge campaigns through the lens we view them from. We're all biased...or, to take BTD at his word lately..supporters of Senator Obama are more biased than others.

    My counter point was, if we're talking health care, let's look at links, look at facts, look at arguments, and compare the plans side by side.

    Ultimately that's what voters do with the candidates. They ask EXACTLY the question you are asking.

    Who do I trust? Whom do I prefer on Health Care?

    Hillary or Barack?

    It's frustrating when someone writes a post that is about health care, but doesn't want to talk health care policy at all...or the contrast between the actual plans...and only wants to say: one side is dishonest.

    Well, no. If we're talking health care, let's talk health care. Let's quote the candidates. That's what I did: I quoted Senator Clinton.

    No one responded to that. Why?

    Parent

    BTD's Post Was About Political (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:34:13 PM EST
    strategy and how to use the fact that her health care plan is similar to the Edwards to get his supporters. It is about how Hillary could strategically use this to her political advantage.  In fact, he has stated that he is not knowledgeable about the policies and it is not one that interests him.

    He is discussing strategy rather than policy.

    Parent

    The Monday Kennedy extravaganza (none / 0) (#55)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:06:27 PM EST
    wow, the Obama supporters adored the media coverage. Tell me, was that not campaigning? If he had integrity for the rules it could have waited till Wed, or today. If you watched Hillary's speech she started with saying: "thank you for your vote of confidence" I found that very gracious.

    Parent
    The mockery strategy (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:01:57 PM EST
    plays right into the narrative of Obama as petulant and ungracious, so please, keep it up.

    It is not, IMO, advantageous to the Obama campaign to channel Dana Milbank.

    Parent

    c'mon (none / 0) (#58)
    by Klio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:14:33 PM EST
    I am certainly not advocating that we compare HRC only to ennobling and bold literary figures.  But that's not the only other option to comparing her to a fictional opportunistic, overly ambitious, sexually consuming harridan.  Fer god's sake, Tracey Flick is a misogynistic portrayal all on her own. [argument for another day ....]  

    And why shouldn't HRS have Making History on her website?  She is making history.  Obama makes the same claim (as does his wife) when he asserts that come his inauguration, everyone will look on something new.  It's true for him and it's true for her.

    And what does it even mean to criticize Hillary for personalizing politics?  Remember the personal is political?  Sure it's a little hackneyed, but aren't we are all living politics in our personal lives?

    I've said this a few times today, but I feel like our budding progressive movement is being torn apart in ways I'm not sure it can recover from.  When it first became clear that Obama might win the nomination, I worked hard at reconciling myself to it, even though he wasn't anywhere near my top choice.  But the tenor and ferocity and just plain repulsive Hillary hating FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE MY SUPPOSED ALLIES in a larger p.o.l.i.t.i.c.a.l. movement is really illuminating.  

    And lastly,

    Parent

    I respect Hillary (none / 0) (#65)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:43:41 PM EST
    but disagree with her, on politics and process.

    I wrote an essay examining her career and another one examining and ultimately disagreeing with the message of her campaign.

    Neither of which could be called Hillary hate, I don't think.

    There's no easy for us to have this debate between candidates, only one of whom can win, without longstanding "stuff" coming up about gender and race and our political history.

    I won't shirk from that. You are right to point up Michelle and Barack's rhetoric including their potential "firstness" just like Senator Clinton.

    I also want to say that I read Jane's essay, I take what you said seriously. I take someone finding me misogynistic seriously. I think about this stuff.

    But I also don't know what the proper response is to someone whose campaign is both moving because of it's "firstness"...like the Clinton speech New Hampshire, and how that moved so many of us who knew what that occaision meant...but which has also, at the same time, ventured into a line of attack, post-Iowa that was just...wrong.

    If "making fun of a candidate" is actually the most appropriate response to something ridiculous that they've done, and historically that's often been the case in presidential elections, how do you make fun of Senator Clinton or Senator Obama?

    Parent

    I'm sorry (none / 0) (#70)
    by Lena on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:54:26 PM EST
    but it's scary that a post that makes so little sense espouses a viewpoint that has apparently become conventional wisdom on the internet.

    This MAKES NO SENSE!!

    She got more votes. She celebrated. She thanked her supporters in Florida (which is more than Obama did for his 500,000 plus voters). Who is this Rosenberg guy to be offended or hurt and betrayed?

    HRC thanked her supporters and had a party. Big deal.

    Parent

    the problem with the (none / 0) (#86)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:09:21 PM EST
    Florida victory, where she got more votes in one day than Obama has gotten in, arguably, his entire career, is that they don't think it was very ladylike of her to have a party celebrating almost a million voters who chose her.

    To which I say: bite me.

    I am so sick of all these old white men telling the world what Hillary should and should not do.  I genuinely would not be surprised to see a headline soon that says, "CLINTON: PRETTIER IF SHE SMILED MORE."

    Give.
    Me.
    A.
    Break.

    Parent

    That's reductive (none / 0) (#90)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:17:31 PM EST
    If it were two women running against one another for President, would Clinton's speech to a national organization of small businesswomen be relevant?

    Of course. And it would be relevant for what it says about Clinton's Health Care policies. Period.

    That's how it should be.

    BTD wrote a post saying, basically, he doesn't even know the health care policy debate all that well, but "hey, aren't those Obama supporters disingenuous?"

    I quoted Senator Clinton taking an accepted policy stand that has merit, but which I disagree with, to show evidence that you can be an Obama supporter and sincerely disagree with Senator Clinton in her own words.


    Parent

    BTD's post (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by rilkefan on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:55:11 PM EST
    simply argues that some people who have expressed a policy preference in Clinton's favor on this issue are not now noting it as an input in deciding who to back.  Your argument is just not relevant to this claim.  If you can show that e.g. Klein has come around on the policy preference for reasons a, b, and c, then fine.  For now you've got a point which has no place in this post.

    Parent
    with due respect, I'll show you then (none / 0) (#126)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:59:43 PM EST
    BTD's post asks us to take at face value that Edward's plan and Clinton's plan were similar enough that, if you supported Edwards plan and thought it was a good influence on the health care debate, you should, logically throw your support to Clinton.

    This is in support of a master narrative that BTD has been throwing down here in almost every post that Obama advocates are somehow inconsistent and disigenuous and "Just hate Hillary."

    For BTD to make his point, Klein's actual position is really irrelevant..because, as he admits, the specifics of Edwards plan are also opaque to him.

    BTD's main point isn't about Klein or Edwards, it's about his overarching theme that Obama supporters aren't serious about their policy positions..."They just hate Hillary."

    Now, Klein had good things to say about Edwards plan...so what was Edward's actual position on employer mandates?

    One provision of the Edwards proposal certain to draw fire is a requirement that companies provide health insurance for all workers or pay 6 percent of their payrolls into a government fund to buy insurance for them. This type of "play or pay" program was an element of former President Bill Clinton's failed 1994 health care plan that was shaped in large part by Mrs. Clinton.

    Klein addressed exactly this point in his piece:

    I need to get back to spraying Zicam and complaining about my cold, but I'd be remiss not to offer a quick rundown of John Edwards's just-released health plan (pdf). The short answer: It's good.

    Here's how it works: On first blush, the plan is much like the Wyden initiative, though it puts the onus of the responsibility for funding health coverage on employers, a decision I don't quite understand. The employers can satisfy that responsibility by either providing comprehensive care, or helping employees purchase from a menu of insurance options provided by newly formed, state-run "Health Markets."

    Kelin likes Edwards plan overall, but doesn't much like the employer mandates. And here's what Klein had to say about Clinton's Health Care plan on that topic:

    Clinton's plan is of the "individual mandate" variety, in which universal coverage is achieved by mandating that every American purchase health care. In order to ensure that that's both possible and affordable, the Clinton plan creates a few new coverage options, reform the insurance industry, limits coverage costs to a percentage of income, and washes your car.

    Okay, it doesn't wash your car. It does open the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program to everybody, ensuring that anyone can access the same menu of regulated private options that federal employees get. FEHBP is the program that already insures millions of current government employees, including the members of Congress, by offering a variety of regulated private options to choose from. Throwing the doors to that program wide open is the most basic and ubiquitous of coverage solutions.

    More importantly, the plan also creates a new public insurance option, modeled off, but distinct from, Medicare. That's a big deal: The public insurer offers full coverage and is open to all Americans without restriction. Public insurance is what I feared her plan would avoid, and instead, she embraced it wholeheartedly

    Okay, Klein is neutral on "individual mandates" but Klein really likes opening EFHBP and the public insurance option in Clinton's plan.

    So, where does this get us? Obama's plan.

    Here's what Klein has to say about Obama's plan:

    The plan is centered around a new regulatory agency called the National Health Insurance Exchange, which is both responsible for regulating the insurance industry (more on this in a moment) and administering the new public insurance program Obama's plan creates. That's a big deal -- one of the real tests of seriousness for the new plans is whether they create a public insurance program, and Obama's does. Unlike Edwards' and Jacob Hacker's plans, he doesn't use Medicare as the basis for the program, but instead creates an entirely new public insurer.

    Well, first, Klein likes Hillary and Obama's plan for the same reason...(they both initiate a public insurance program independent of medicaid)...however, crucially to this debate, it's a reason NOT included in Edwards plan. (So, yes, BTD doesn't know what he's talking about and it shows. This whole argument is a straw man.)

    However, Klein notes that Obama's plan, like Edwards, but unlike Clinton's, had firm employer mandates:

    Employers will have to either pay into this market, or pay into the national plan.

    Finally, he goes on to say this about the Obama plans lack of an individual mandate, the exact issue BTD is addressing:

    A notable omission is any sort of mandate for adults: This is a plan that would make universal coverage affordable and feasible, but it is not a plan that create universal coverage. It will undoubtedly cut down on the number of uninsured, but without some sort of individual or government mandate, it won't create 100 percent coverage. The Obama campaign's decision to omit a mandate is a puzzling one, both from a policy perspective -- you want the largest possible risk pool -- and a political one. His plan, unlike others, is not truly universal, it's simply possibly universal.

    But I'm actually less concerned about that then certain other features of the plan.

    So, in essence, BTD can't say that Klein is inconsistent because Klein's review of both plans just doesn't put that much emphasis on the exact issue BTD is hammering. Second, Obama and Edwards plans are similar to each other but different from Clinton's on the very point I bring up in my quote  at the top of this long thread. Who do you mandate first? Industry or individuals?

    Does the evidence from Klein back up BTD? No.
    Is there a clear intellectual dishonesty from Klein on this issue? No.
    Is Obama's plan similar to Clinton's on one of the core things Klein gets excited about? Yes.
    Is Obama's plan similar to Edwards and dissimilar to Clinton's on the subject I brought up to initate my comment in this debate? Yes.

    Now, was it worth going into the weeds on Klein? Sure if you care about health care policy, yes, it's good to know.

    But not if you care about the master narrative that Obama is trying to argue. Because it's founded on a deception, a straw man. The very policy preference that Klein favors most is shared by Obama AND Clinton, and the one BTD trumpets is downplayed.

    Further, and most relevant to me, something at the core of Edwards and Obama's proposals, that businesses take some responsiblity FIRST for the health care of their employees is included in both Obama and Edwards's plans. (But Klein doesn't seem to think much of that either.) I think this is a crucial issue in this debate.

    I'm with the pragmatism expressed in the Ron Brownstein piece I linked to above.

    And, yeah, I think grandstanding posts like BTD's do nothing to advance policy debates. They are about something else entirely. But I think you knew that.

    Parent

    Re: (none / 0) (#128)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:22:24 PM EST
    I think you're quite mistaken on this.

    Well, first, Klein likes Hillary and Obama's plan for the same reason...(they both initiate a public insurance program independent of medicaid)...however, crucially to this debate, it's a reason NOT included in Edwards plan.

    Klein does not, at any point, say that it's important for the public program to be based on something other than Medicare.  All he says is that it's important to have a public program.  He's noting that Edwards' public program looks like Medicare, and Obama's doesn't, but he's not making any sort of value judgment.

    You will not find one word, at least not that I'm aware of, where Klein criticizes Edwards for the fact that his public programs are based upon Medicare.  That's because he doesn't see anything wrong with that.

    Parent

    That's a pretty fine distinction (none / 0) (#129)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:42:21 PM EST
    when he says this:

    More importantly, the plan also creates a new public insurance option, modeled off, but distinct from, Medicare. That's a big deal:

    In the passage I quote.

    But no matter, you and I may be the only people in the Unites States to have read or care about this at this point!

    I showed that BTD using Klein was all a grand sham...it allowed BTD to create another strawman about how Obama supporters are dishonest.

    Except the evidence doesn't show that.

    Parent

    BTD not Obama...you'll get it. n/t (none / 0) (#127)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:08:16 PM EST
    I am reading your words (none / 0) (#93)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:30:47 PM EST
    but they just don't make sense.

    Maybe Obama could explain them to me.

    Parent

    Bravo..... (none / 0) (#121)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:32:01 PM EST
    You jumped the shark (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:01:22 PM EST
    I did not attack you at all.

    Indeed, the merits of your argument on YOUR point (again wholy unrterlated to mine, a constant with you) went unaddressed by me.

    I pointed out TO YOU what the point of my post is AGAIN.

    I have no idea if you once thought mandates of the Edwards variety matters. Nor do I care frankly. I am writing here about people like Ezra Klein and Noam Scheiber who said Clinton's mandate plan IS BETTER than Obama's - who made a BIG deal out of it when Edwards was in the race and NOW have nothing to say on the issue.

    And of course you chooose to ignore the CENTRAL POINT - Edwards agrees with Hillary on the issue.

    Who is right? I have not the foggiest clue. But if Edwards supporters liked his health plan, it stands to reason that they will prefer Clinton's to Obama's.

    But as always, you go off on your own tangent s and decide to play the victim.

    I am heartily sick of it.

    Get over yourself or stop commenting here.

    Parent

    Once again (none / 0) (#43)
    by kid oakland on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:14:30 PM EST
    no links to anything. When I was a debater, we had to present evidence for all of our arguments and ad hominem, anger and ridicule meant you LOST the debate.

    More discussion:

    Here is a side by side comparison of the Clinton and  Obama plans by the Henry J. Kaiser foundation.

    Since John Edwards is no longer in the race...that's a way for readers to take a comprehensive look at both proposals and decide for themselves.

    For myself, I find that David Cutler makes a persuasive argument for the politics of Obama's approach. (Article: Health Mandates Why Paul Krugman is Wrong.)

    Like I said, my reading shows that policy analysts agree that both approaches are valid as policy ...it comes down to what you think will be most politically effective.

    What Obama is proposing will have it's own challenges to passage. (A real fight with the insurance industry and the chamber of commerce.)

    But I think it's more politically persuasive than Clinton's

    America's Health Choices Plan

    Parent

    Links? (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:20:36 PM EST
    WTF are you talking about?

    I am EXPRESSLY saying to you I will not engage you in your threadjack.

    My post is about WHAT I WROTE ABOUT, NOT what YOU WROTE ABOUT.

    I will not chase your red herrings.

    I ask you again to rein in your disruptive behavior or please do not comment here.

    Parent

    Edwards (none / 0) (#14)
    by goosy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:39:15 AM EST
    One thing about Edwards that appealed to me, was I honestly believed he was sincere. Obama, I'm not too sure he is sincere and/or as honest as Edwards.  Too all who would like to read articles on all of the candidates, articles  which pull out the insincerity and dishonesty in most of them, go to....


    Only slightly On topic (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:42:59 AM EST
    Try to keep to the issue of the post.

    Thanks!

    Parent

    Compulsion is important (none / 0) (#15)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:39:25 AM EST

    Compulsion is important.  What is the point in giving people a choice in this matter?  The more people have to depend on the political process, the stronger the party.

    Clinton's Best Moment at the Last Debate (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by BDB on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:00:13 PM EST
    Was when she said if you don't start with universal coverage, you'll never get there and that universal healthcare was a core democratic value.  

    But here's the other reason why universal healthcare should absolutely be mandated by any Democratic plan - it's a stalking horse for further reform.  What it costs or how it's done is less important than covering everyone.  Because once everyone has health insurance, once they see it as a right like social security, they won't be willing to give it up.  If costs spiral out of control, the answer won't be to strip people of coverage.  It will be to deal with costs.  

    That's why Obama's lets start with my idea and then see where we go approach is bad - even if it's a decent policy, it's bad politics.  You need mandated coverage to create - and maintain - the pressure to reform the system.

    Clinton really has benefitted from the 1994 failure.  In fact, one of the reasons I distrust Obama is that he hasn't really had any failures in his career.  Failure, IMO, are some of the best experiences people can have, particularly gifted people like Clinton and Obama.  They humble you, teach you, and make you stronger.  And how someone reacts to them tells you a lot about them.  Clinton's current plan tells me that she's still committed to universal healthcare, she's just gotten smarter about the politics of it.  That's a good thing, IMO.  Both for healthcare and what it says about her.  

    Parent

    Right (none / 0) (#61)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:32:49 PM EST
    If costs spiral out of control, the answer won't be to strip people of coverage.  It will be to deal with costs.

    Thats what they do in Canada and England.  The way to reduce cost is to reduce the level of service.  You still have "coverage" but that in no way means you get service when you need it.  

    The Canadian Jepp quads had to come to the booming metropolis (!) of Great Falls Montana to be born because Canada reduced cost by limiting capacity.

    Having "coverage" without the capacity (cost) to actually deliver service is nothing more than a scam.  

    Parent

    I had healthcare (none / 0) (#64)
    by Judith on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:37:48 PM EST
    service in Canada under ontario plan and it was great.

    Parent
    And I have friend in Canada who says their (none / 0) (#80)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:43:54 PM EST
    health care system sucks.

    I'm glad we've settled that.

    Parent

    Depends (none / 0) (#94)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:30:52 PM EST

    For those that get service and those that don't need service, anything is great.  For those that don't get service, well the dead cost nothing to service.

    The last stats I say (sorry no link) showed 25% of US women do not survive breast cancer.  33% in France do not.  And 50% in the UK do not.  None of those dead are around to complain.  

    In comparing health care systems, the most important metric IMHO is survival rates for major illnesses.  The second is how often the citizens have to go to another country for health care.  On those mertics is any country better?

    Parent

    Abdul (none / 0) (#88)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:16:50 PM EST
    You are wrong about the UK system.  I was insured in the UK at one point.  I lived in London and had friends who used it.  NHS actually operated at a profit last year and people were outraged and made them put it all back into the system.

    I love it when Americans argue about Europeans having to "wait" to get seen by a doctor.  HAve you called an intern lately or visited a hospital?  I'd argue that in America, you have to wait even longer.

    Parent

    And my British rugby-playing friends, (none / 0) (#91)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:23:47 PM EST
    who've had injuries here and thus experiences with the US system, often "slag off" the health care system in the UK for the extended wait times. They'd argue the opposite of you.

    Kinda silly to bring stuff like this up, isn't it? It's all mainly just individual experiences and opinions after all...

    Parent

    I don't think it's silly (none / 0) (#96)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:35:18 PM EST
    to give my own personal opinion having lived there and experienced the system myself.

    Your British playing rugby friends have their own perspective, but if you are close to them then you will know that slagging off is a birthright.  Brits complain about everything.  How many medical bankruptcies are filed in the UK?  How many children are relinquished to the state because their parents cannot afford to treat their medical conditions?  How many homes have been lost because of out of control costs?  How many seniors go without food so they can afford medicine?

    Talk to your rugby pals about this and get back to me.

    Parent

    If you have the answers, enlighten us. (none / 0) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:41:51 PM EST
    If not, then I'll assume there's a reason for it.

    Parent
    I defer to (none / 0) (#112)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:30:04 PM EST
    Your friends in England and your friends in Canada and your friends in whichever country I name where I have personally seen with my own eyes and via my own experiences that their healthcare is better.

    Let's start with Germany.  Do you perhaps have a beer-drinking pal named Dieter?

    Parent

    Sadly, no. You win. (none / 0) (#116)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:36:55 PM EST
    Canada Is Ranked 13th In Life Expectancy (none / 0) (#117)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:52:24 PM EST
    U.S. is ranked 45th.

    Infant mortality rate  Canada 4.6, U.S. 6.4

    Evidently Canada must be doing something right.

    Parent

    Is it your claim that (none / 0) (#118)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:56:54 PM EST
    their health care system is the reason? If so, I'd love to see your link to that research.

    Parent
    Lack Of Health Care Most Definitely (none / 0) (#119)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:06:13 PM EST
    Infant Mortality
    MSNBC
    CHICAGO - America may be the world's superpower, but its survival rate for newborn babies ranks near the bottom among modern nations, better only than Latvia.
    ...
    We are the wealthiest country in the world, but there are still pockets of our population who are not getting the health care they need," said Mary Beth Powers, a reproductive health adviser for the U.S.-based Save the Children, which compiled the rankings based on health data from countries and agencies worldwide.

    Do you really think that having 46 million uninsured people in the U.S. not receiving regular health care has no impact?

    Parent

    race, obesity, smoking, drinking, drugs, violence, cultures, environments, family unity, etc., etc., etc., among the various nations of the world, one would decide that the only reason for differences in such things as infant mortality rates is due to the applicable health care system - as though that is the golden ticket, with the right one all health problems will be solved - never fails to amaze me.

    Parent
    what a non progressive statement (none / 0) (#124)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:50:10 PM EST
    I am amazed...yes our health care system sucks...watch "sicko" if you don't believe me...

    Parent
    That you find "sicko" to be (none / 0) (#125)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:53:36 PM EST
    your health care touchstone amazes me in return.

    Parent
    Yes but, America (none / 0) (#120)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:15:45 PM EST
    is number one in frequency of indivuals who believe Govts primary role should be to protect private property and the interests of those with the most and that almost all other sorts of interventions on behalf of the citizenry are "infantilizing" and "a threat to freedom".

    I dont have a link to any research, but it seems to be something in the air or the water.

    Parent

    Canada must be doing something right. (none / 0) (#130)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:34:56 PM EST
    In the case of the Jepp quads they get sent to the US to be born because of inability to provide service (cost control) in Canada.  Unlike Canada, we don't have a big neighbor nearby where we can go if our service capacity got cut back due mandated cost reductions.

    Life expectancy and infant mortality are influenced by many more things than just the health care system.  Drug abuse and murder rates are not the same in the US and Canada and they affect both infant mortality and life expectancy to mention just two of the ways we differ.

    Parent

    Universal corporate interest (none / 0) (#132)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 04:21:36 PM EST
    coverage and the "big government" it requires, o.k.
    Universal health care, not o.k.

    Do I have it right, Abdul?

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#133)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 12:28:24 PM EST

    As simple as possible:  

    Choice, good.

    No choice, bad.

    Being treated as a customer, good.

    Being treated as a cost, bad.

    Government involvement in itself is not the primary issue.  There can be good as well as bad involvement.  

    Parent

    So basically (none / 0) (#134)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 01:01:19 PM EST
    As long as you concur with the rationale accompanying the instances of "no choice" -- that are part and parcel of having ANY govt at all -- it's not a major problem, seemingly.

    People in favor of UHC feel the exact same way.

    Parent

    Govt does not mean no choice. (none / 0) (#135)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 04:00:18 PM EST

    One thing the feds could do is allow citizens of any state to buy an insurance policy that is legal in any other state rather than just their own state.

    Thats a federal government program that would give everyone more choice, and much more affordability to many.  No one seems to want to deal with the problem of state mandates making the lowest priced policy having to provide Rolls Royce coverage.  

    Does it make sense to mandate coverage for say, wigs when the added cost makes insurance unaffordable for some?

    Parent

    the more I think about it (none / 0) (#39)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:10:36 PM EST
    the more sense it makes to me that the Obama supporters are more willing to "roll the dice" on health care because of their youth...maybe that is why they are willing to elect someone on faith too...They can maybe afford to be wrong and still survive...others are not so fortunate...

    or (none / 0) (#59)
    by Judith on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:19:10 PM EST
    think they can.

    Parent
    I tend to agree (none / 0) (#109)
    by standingup on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:11:30 PM EST
    and of course it would make sense for Obama to structure his plan that way since he is targeting that demographic in his campaign.  

    I haven't carefully studied the particulars of either Obama or Hillary's plans but do understand that the basic concept of insurance is to spread the risk or the law of large numbers.  So any weakness in the plan that would result in fewer people having coverage will work against lowerer premiums.    

    Parent

    I hope HRC speaks to the similarities between her (none / 0) (#45)
    by Angel on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:24:20 PM EST
    health care plan and the Edwards plan.  If enough of Edwards' supporters tune in and hear/see that then maybe she will be able to capitalize on that come Tuesday.  I think the majority of Edwards' supporters were there because of his concern about health insurance, in addition to the labor movement and its concerns.  HRC and Edwards are really more alike in platform than Obama and Edwards.

    sorry about the O/T (none / 0) (#66)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:44:58 PM EST
    but pollster has a list of states involved in the super tuesday thing and some of them are fairly recent...

    "If we don't change this now, (none / 0) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:01:13 PM EST
    it will never happen."

    I can see now what led you to choose your moniker.

    I wonder (none / 0) (#107)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:05:25 PM EST
    if Edwards is waiting to see which one is ahead more and then endorse them because he wishes to participate in their administration....Makes sense to me....Why upset either one until he sees which way the wind is blowing...

    athyrio (none / 0) (#113)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:31:38 PM EST
    I may be a pollyanna on Edwards, but I think if he is waiting, it is not for personal gain.

    I know, I know, BTD--he IS a politician...but I AM a pollyanna, so...

    Parent

    How will it be done? (none / 0) (#123)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:42:39 PM EST
    I found it interesting when Obama was talking how he would put together this plan. He will go on C-Span, with everyone on the table and (jokingly he said) he would have the biggest chair. So everyone can hear what everyone was saying. Then his narrative stops. So, what happens after the table meeting? Will he put up butcher paper with all the ideas, then people will go around and give points (community organizing technique). So, I am thinking, we will process, and process, and talk, and c-span, and no program or legislation will come out of this. So, who wins?