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Keeping an Eye On the Real Risk of Election Fraud

Is all the right wing angst over some Acorn workers who apparently registered nonexistent people (who are, by definition, incapable of voting) a distraction not only from John McCain's intellectually bankrupt campaign but also from the real election fraud that we've come to expect from Republicans?

Now, New York University professor Mark Crispin Miller is warning that elements within the Republican Party may attempt to steal the 2008 presidential election from Barack Obama.
[UPDATE: As with every post I write, I speak for myself only. BTD wishes to be specifically disassociated from this post.]

[more ...]

Miller says:

There is copious, specific evidence … that the Bush regime has been engaging in massive election fraud systematically since 2000; that the last two presidential elections were stolen; that the 2004 election wasn’t even as close as we were thinking; and that they (theRepublicans) have also clearly rigged a number of congressional and gubernatorial electionsnationwide, including Don Siegelman’s contest for re-election in 2002 in Alabama [and] Max Cleland’s senatorial re-election race in Georgia that same year… Crucially, what all this means, is that the next election is by no means a sure thing and will not perhaps be decided on the basis of what people actually want or how they actually vote.

It isn't fraud that's causing red states to turn blue. But barring an unforeseen disaster for the Obama campaign, if blue doesn't win the presidency this year, fraud will be only explanation.

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    I hardly think my comment (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by shoephone on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:27:45 PM EST
    deserves a troll rating for simply pointing out the obvious.

    Time for me to go work in the garden. The air in here is a little thick. Have a nice day.

    I don't care about Crispin whatever's (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by scribe on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:31:37 PM EST
    cred or lack thereof.  I don't need his cred or not.

    I do not trust the electronic voting machines made by Diebold or anyone else precisely because they are astonishingly easily hacked (some guys at Princeton got into them with a paperclip, fer Chrissake), and because Diebold promised Bush the election.

    As far as I'm concerned, their machines are insecure.  Period.  And the Republicans own, operate, control, or have way too much influence in the companies that make, maintain, and program the machines.

    Funny, how all the differences between exit polls and machine results seem to break Republican, isn't it?

    How secure do you think paper ballots are? (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:33:46 PM EST
    They can be lost, misdirected, or thrown away. The unscrupulous can easily fill out as many paper ballots as they want if they have the right access. Why do you think big cities went to lever machines in the 1930s and 1940s?

    This obsession over Diebold is outrageous.

    Parent

    Sure it is (4.00 / 4) (#72)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 05:59:27 PM EST
    And I'm certain you would have no problem farming out Social Security to Wall Street.  You can disagree, certainly, but you cannot logically point to an argument that supports your notion electronic voting and the worries about it are outrageous.  Refute the fact that most of these machines and their software are easily hacked.  Refute the fact that to flip thousands of votes with one hacked card or machine is somehow less of a threat than paper ballots?  Thing is, when you carry off paper ballots or fill out more than one there is this thing called a PHYSICAL PRESENCE -- you have missing ballots or more ballots than voters.  In many cases, with electronic voting, you have no way to verify ANYTHING.

    I can respect whatever opinion you have of Bev Harris, Miller or whoever, what I can't respect is knowingly putting your head in the sand.  Makes no logical sense.  Sorry.

    Parent

    Sorry andgarden, you're wrong (3.00 / 4) (#65)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:38:18 PM EST
    It takes a MASSIVE amount of effort to phuck with the number of ballots that can be easily flipped with a hacked computer program.  This is basic logic.  You may not believe it has happened, but having having your head in the sand is no adequate answer.  So you don't like Bev Harris (who happens to do a lot of the work most people are too lazy to go out and do, houding election officials being the most important), but that hardly makes up for the FACT, the logical FACT, that when a hacked program can flip thousands of votes in a second it is OBVIOUSLY a greater threat and an easier cheat than paper.

    You honestly think, with a guy who's middle name is Hussein, who is black, that there won't be a major effort to toss this election electronically?  Sorry, I respect your opinion, but you seem blindly hopeful of something that, with our electoral track record, you have no basis to be hopeful about.

    Parent

    add to your list... (none / 0) (#103)
    by Palli on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:12:26 PM EST
     indictable actions while in office..

    Parent
    Tell me TC... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by callmecassandra on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:50:43 PM EST
    If ACORN was 'attached' to Republicans, wouldn't you have some problems with "workers who apparently registered nonexistent people"? Would you see it as a distraction? What happened to fair elections as a priority for all involved?


    nonexistent people cannot vote (none / 0) (#97)
    by coigue on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 10:38:32 PM EST
    because nonexistent people cannot show up to polls.

    Thus ACORN is defrauding the person who paid them to register. Obama wasted his money. It will NOT result in fake votes for Democrats.

    Parent

    as jimmy carter proved, (none / 0) (#111)
    by sancho on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:46:42 PM EST
    nonexistent people used to vote early and often in georgia. other places too.

    Parent
    the new poll test: house address? (none / 0) (#146)
    by Palli on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 08:25:04 PM EST
    and some people weren't allowed to vote at all!

    We have come a long way... but now some people think too many American people will vote?

    Parent

    Then hopes for Obama's victory (none / 0) (#118)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 01:24:00 AM EST
    are over-inflated, here and elsewhere, as often cited as a factor is the increase in new voter registrations.

    Parent
    nonexistent people cannot show up to polls (none / 0) (#134)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 09:16:32 AM EST
    True but not relevant.  Without voter ID, anyone can show up at the poll and vote by merely claiming to be that person.  

    Parent
    Word (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:02:07 PM EST
    I read your link at the bottom.  Thanks.  

    He sounds a bit off.  It is a shame that thew call for greater attention to legimate voter fraud/ suppression (whatever you want to call it), is lessened by people like this.  

    These over the top leftiest arguements hurt us so badly, as it just gives fodder for the right to ignore the true disenfranchisement their party uses.

    Simple question? (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Radix on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 09:52:00 PM EST
    Why create a system of accounting that can't be audited?

    Witnesses count (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Palli on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:31:31 PM EST
    As an Ohio voter, who was a democratic "protector" at a precinct in the 2004 election and a observer at 2 county BOEs during the recount, I feel unwelcome at the site.

    I don't know any of you but, BTD, if you were so uncomfortable you should have either: 1.) contributed one concise informative posting that presented your position, then left to read a book or 2.) left TChris cryptic disclaimer stand and left to read a book. It has been silly.

    There is ample evidence to show (4.75 / 4) (#11)
    by shoephone on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:51:26 PM EST
    that "voter fraud" is a piffle compared to the real culprit, voter suppression, which the Republican party has been excelling at for years. The only reason Bud Cummins was fired as AG and Tim Griffin was sent in to replace him was because Griffin did such a great job suppressing Dem votes in Florida.

    Obama may be enough ahead in the polls not to lose in November, but that is no justification for ignoring voter suppression tactics of the GOP.

    The only example in modern history (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:18:40 PM EST
    I can think of was in my own city of Philadelphia. See here.

    It involved absentee ballot fraud. And guess what? They got caught!

    Parent

    One could argue (none / 0) (#19)
    by coast on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:05:40 PM EST
    that executive bonuses are a "piffle" to the over all $700 billion bailout, yet we still want our pound of flesh.  Fraud is fraud and any fraud, small or large, cast doubt on the system as a whole.

    Parent
    Silly bailout analogy (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by shoephone on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:14:47 PM EST
    There is no comparison to be made between voter "fraud" and voter "suppression".

    Do a little research. Here, I'll give you ahead start with this Washington Post piece from last year.

    Parent

    Of course, it's not necessarily (4.66 / 3) (#63)
    by Cream City on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:18:42 PM EST
    dichotomous.  There can be voter fraud, but not enough to cause the loss of an election.

    There may not be causation.  There may not even be a correlation.  That does not mean there was no voter fraud.  See the far better study Deliver the Vote on the existence of voter fraud, vote suppression, voter intimidation, etc., throughout our history -- under any and every technology.  But that it is endemic does not mean it is epidemic.

    A couple of.. (4.50 / 2) (#1)
    by NYShooter on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:14:57 PM EST
    ...like, examples? would be appreciated.

    All the voting rights activist groups (none / 0) (#120)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 01:55:46 AM EST
    are not wrong. They know that the GOP is employing every conceivable machination to abuse every aspect of the electoral system and its tin-penny voting equipment: past, present, and future.

    For an ongoing, up to the minute, review of actual electoral fraud, and the bogus GOP ballyhoo about so-called voter fraud, start with: Brad Blog and Black Box Voting. There's also the man himself: Mark Crispin Miller, who BTD has derided so virulently here on this thread.

    Parent

    three of the worst offenders around (none / 0) (#131)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 07:41:08 AM EST
    who have doen great damage to the cause of fighting for election reform.

    Parent
    Oh seriously, Miller ought to be (4.50 / 2) (#2)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:17:04 PM EST
    ashamed of himself. The 2004 election was not stolen.

    And his evidence for massive election fraud?

    I hate people like this.

    I went to a number of workshops (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by hairspray on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:43:35 PM EST
    after 2004 and there was plenty of suspicious activity that wasn't explained.  The worst of course, was the dearth of voting equipment and outlandish procedures in Democratic districts in Ohio.  That plus cleansing voter rolls may or may not have accounted for the 60,000 votes that needed to have switched in that state to give it to John Kerry.  I don't know if the state was stolen or not, but it was a very good example of voter fraud perpetrated by the GOP who happened to have ruled that state for generations.

    Parent
    There is a difference between (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:00:49 PM EST
    voter fraud and voter suppression. And no one has ever shown me any evidence that what happened in Ohio was sufficient to throw the election.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#20)
    by NYShooter on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:07:24 PM EST
    I don't mean to be a butthead, but why isn't voter suppression a fraud?

    Parent
    TheCrispin Milers and BEv Harrises (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:14:33 PM EST
    of the world have dione so much damage to the movement on  fighting vcoter suppression that it is critical to use 2 different terms for this.

    I repeat again, because I feel ver very verys trongly about this, I completely and utterly disassocaite myself from this post and state categorically that in no way does this post speak for me. In the contrary, I am dismayed to see it.

    Parent

    Whoever implied you were (3.66 / 3) (#34)
    by shoephone on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:17:32 PM EST
    associated with this post? I think we can all see that T Chris wrote the post.

    Parent
    Excuse me (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:19:49 PM EST
    I am not even comfortable having Crispin Miller cited at a blog I write at.

    I want to make clear that I disapprove of citing Cripin Miller at all.

    Parent

    Here's the great thing about a (none / 0) (#121)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 02:20:31 AM EST
    certain contrarian here on this thread: s/he quips flippantly and doesn't elucidate the issues. But s/he provokes sound, informative responses from folks like Hairspray, Dadler, Scribe, Sancho and others. They make a strong case and we get brick vs. straw.

    So, in the end, the contrarian serves an inadvertent, constructive purpose. It's a good thing.

    Parent

    voter fraud (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by DocBradd on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:48:48 PM EST
    Data regarding voter fraud has been posted in various places.  If you really don't believe and are sincere about learning, I suggest that you use google.  The complaint that a short post doesn't contain evidence is a silly way to attempt to discredit it, and your hatred of such would keep you from looking at short posts as they rarely are complete.

    Start with Mark Crispin Miller and then look further under "voter fraud".  There is plenty of evidence.

    Brad

    Parent

    Having reviewed this in the past, (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:58:48 PM EST
    I do not feel that I need to do further research. It sounds very much to me that Mr. Miller is singing the same old song about exit polls, lines, and computers, none of which is really proof of anything. People vote in such massive numbers that, with the exception of a ridiculously close situation like Florida 2000, you'd have to essentially invent votes in order to steal an election.

    Was there voter suppression in Ohio in 2004? Yes. Was it sufficient to steal the election: no.

    You can spin whatever conspiracy theories you want, but John Kerry lost fair and square. And whatever you think about Ohio in 2004, Bush was the legitimate winner in my view; he won the national popular vote.

    Parent

    You deny that any new information is relevant? (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Ginny in CO on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:39:13 PM EST
    Andgarden, first of all, you apparently think that because Bush won the popular vote in '04, that there was no election fraud anywhere but Ohio. It's true that people vote in massive numbers, but it still comes down to the vote count in a city or county (well except for AK-no counties). Those votes have been close enough in many races to cause recounts.

    The actual difference in the presidential election is a few percentage points. Most of our races are no more than that.  At a local level, 50 votes can be the difference. At a state level maybe thousands. The point of the statistical analyses that Crispin Miller and others are trying to get into the national conscience, is that the number of people whose votes were suppressed or discounted FAR exceeds the number that Bush won by. More than enough that if they had even followed the state breakdown, Kerry would have won. They were all in heavily democratic districts.

    It's true that some of the problems cited cannot be formulated as 'proof'. That was why they were used. Circumstantial evidence has led to many convictions, no doubt some of them capital punishment.

    As someone above pointed out, there is a considerable amount of study and statistics on GOP and RW election fraud. I first learned about it in '88 from a seminar developed from information discovered by Citizens Network at Cornell U. They were working on nulear proliferation issues and discovered some very alarming trends and practices.

    The first was that increasing numbers among the millitary brass were joining prayer groups openly and the message was very evangelical in 'end times' theology. If you have paid any attention to what is going on the millitary, you are aware that this is now causing legal challenges to the millitary from the enlisted level.

    Further investigation revealed that the evangelical churches had become very active in under the radar campaigns to train their members in the election process to get more GOP evangelicals in any office at any level of government. We are talking massive, nationwide efforts with extended training for state level party members at national sites for several days. Basically what Obama has done openly.

    Sarah Palin was chosen to get the evangelical base to get to work on the campaign so the counting could be manipulated - in all the places they have been doing it for decades.

    You should listen to someone with creds and a staunch GOPer expose the situation. Watch the interviews from this year. (I can't get to the link on this computer, it is on You Tube - google spoonamore).

    In 2006, Republican cyber security expert Stephen Spoonamore was interviewed by a major news outlet and he
    blasted Diebold voting machines and the stealing of elections. The story was killed but now you can see that explosive interview thanks to VelvetRevolution


    Parent
    This is precisely why (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:47:07 PM EST
    I object to thiws post - to refight these fraudster wars is not at all int he best interests of this blog or Democrats anywhere.

    Suffice it to say that I amn sure I know at least as much as you about the great debate about voter "fraud" in the 2004 election.

    I personally do not want that "debate" brought to our site.

    I think it is left where it is enjoyed - at DU and other such places. Not a respectable and credible cite like Talk Left.

    Parent

    I wander around the blogosphere (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Ginny in CO on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:40:41 PM EST
    I don't come here (or DU) often because the writing and comments are not ususally worth the time. I have been checking out the veracity of the ACORN articles and found this one wanting as well another elsewhere. (I commented on it separately).

    One of the big issues I have with humanity is the avoidance of difficult issues. This is especially reinforced by 30 years in nursing, trying to convince doctors over the phone that a patient's condition is deteriorating and needs intervention. A few years ago I phrased it:

    Forewarning is Futile.

    Be glad to go where ideas are not condemned because one of the advocates 'is a charlatan'.

    Parent

    BTD, Do you have thoughts on John Conyers's (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by sallywally on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 09:04:58 PM EST
    book about the 2004 election, based in the hearings he held about this?

    Parent
    John Conyers did not write a book (none / 0) (#127)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 07:35:07 AM EST
    As I said, none of you know more about this debate than me.

    Parent
    The Conyers Report is in book format at Amazon (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 02:46:35 PM EST
    See:

    What Went Wrong In Ohio: The Conyers Report On The 2004 Presidential Election (Paperback)
    by Congressman John Conyers (Author), Anita Miller (Editor), Gore Vidal (Introduction)

    There's a 4 page introductory essay by Gore Vidal; The Conyers Report takes up 116 pages and there is an additional 25 pages of notes.

    The original report can be downloaded as a PDF; I linked to it here on this thread in comment #83.

    Parent

    I bought it, actually.... (none / 0) (#137)
    by sallywally on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 02:45:37 PM EST
    so a report that was published and sold at Borders, B&N, etc?

    Parent
    Great post Ginny in CO! (none / 0) (#122)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 02:22:22 AM EST
    To clarify... (none / 0) (#123)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 02:35:32 AM EST
    Ginny in CO, I especially meant your very thoughtful and detailed comments #46 and #64.

    I don't quite agree with #66 where you said: "the writing and comments [at TL] are not ususally worth the time". But, I thank you for working to raise the level.

    Parent

    If you want to be a know-nothing jacka*s (1.00 / 2) (#25)
    by scribe on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:11:18 PM EST
    go and do it elsewhere.

    The fact of the matter is that Diebold's president promised Bush he'd do everything to give him a win, and gave it to him.

    Monkeying with insecure computers, reprogramming them mid-day, running the Ohio results through the same servers as the RNC used for its own business and so on, made clear that they were acting in the same manner as, say, Edward G. Robinson's Johnny Rocco in Key Largo, who described how when he was a city boss prior to being deported, he enjoyed how they'd count the votes, then count them again and keep counting them until the numbers came out "right".

    That was one of the most angering scenes in a movie full of them.

    Parent

    meh, whatever (none / 0) (#30)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:14:40 PM EST
    why wouldnt bush (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by sancho on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:29:18 PM EST
    (or anyone) try to steal an election? how would that be inconsistent with his politics? it may be that you or i might believe that the system protects us from voter fraud? and maybe it does. nonetheless, the more voters there are, the easier it is to steal a few votes here and there.

    lbj's election to the 1948 senate is one small example of how it can happen (and thank god for lbj passing the civil rights bills). there are many other examples. in a way, it is part of the game.

    i dont much like miller either but i dont think that the idea of contemplating (and trying to prevent) election fraud should be out of bounds. and it is naive to think it does not happen.

    Parent

    saying key elections are not stolen (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by sancho on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:36:09 PM EST
    is like saying every single person on death row positively  committed the crime for which they are being executed. it takes the same level of belief and, arguably, the same level of fear to avoid confronting what it might mean if one's belief is wrong.

    Parent
    It sound to me that you (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 12:32:22 AM EST
    actually read Mark Crispin Millers book: Fooled Again; the new revised edition, wherein he addresses the left's aversion to this issue.

    I mean, really, the outcome of the 2000 election was indisputably fixed: by FL Secretary of State Katherine Harris, who was named Bush's Florida campaign co-chair in 1999; by FL Governor/brother Jeb Bush; and the freakin' SCOTUS.  

    Why is it so hard to believe that the GOP improved their game and rigged the '04 outcome: particularly in Ohio, with considerable help from OH Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, who served as Chief Elections Official of Ohio and honorary co-chair of the "Committee to re-elect George W. Bush" during the '04 election.

    I just don't get the cognitive disconnect whereby 2000 could be considered a rigged election but not 2004.

    Parent

    Just curious, andgarden (none / 0) (#23)
    by shoephone on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:09:15 PM EST
    Have you read Bobby Kennedy Jr's June 2006 Rolling Stone piece on the 2004 Ohio votes?

    Parent
    I've skimmed it before, I think (none / 0) (#26)
    by andgarden on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:11:42 PM EST
    But really, as I say above: W was the legitimate winner in 2004, so it doesn't much matter.

    Parent
    Kennedy's area of expertise (none / 0) (#56)
    by standingup on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:57:47 PM EST
    is not election law.  Some of the best legal experts on election law took Kennedy's article in Rolling Stone to task.  Bob Bauer's Robert Kennedy Jr.'s Gift to the Republican Party; or Why the Republicans Don't Mind Rehashing the 2004 Election in Ohio is one and he provides links to a few other refutations written in response to the Rolling Stone article.  

    Parent
    You've got a failure of logic here... (none / 0) (#114)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 12:50:08 AM EST
    You seem to suggest that the 2000 outcome was not entirely legit. If so, you can't turn around and say:

    You can spin whatever conspiracy theories you want, but John Kerry lost fair and square. And whatever you think about Ohio in 2004, Bush was the legitimate winner in my view; he won the national popular vote. [emphasis added]

    If Bush didn't win "fair and square" in 2000, he could not conceivably have won "fair and square" in 2004. The popular vote was not legitimately  derived. You can't cheat and steal in the first half of a game and come out a "fair and square" winner in the second half.

    Or maybe you think 2000 was essentially legit.

    I'm not sure whether you don't know what you're talking about or whether you're not expressing yourself in a manner that is comprehensible, at least to me.

    Parent

    Each election is an independent event (none / 0) (#115)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 12:57:35 AM EST
    From your perspective, it was simply not possible for Bush to win legitimately in 2004. I think that's the crux of the problem with this discussion, and you reveal yourself.

    Parent
    As do you... (none / 0) (#117)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 01:12:32 AM EST
    I've reached a conclusion: you opine in an  authoritative manner but, factually, you don't back it up.

    Enough said.

    Parent

    election (4.50 / 2) (#4)
    by bobbski on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:37:23 PM EST
    ¨It isn't fraud that's causing red states to turn blue. But barring an unforeseen disaster for the Obama campaign, if blue doesn't win the presidency this year, fraud will be only explanation.¨

    Please.   Did Harry Truman beat Tom Dewey in 1948 because of fraud?

    Sometimes paranoia really is paranoia.

    I hate it when people in our party (none / 0) (#102)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:05:06 PM EST
    Are so quick to jump up and scream "conspiracy".  It makes us all look foolish.  Stuff happens.  And it's rarely because of some giant conspiracy.

    Parent
    Democracy isn't always undermined by (none / 0) (#149)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 05:22:50 PM EST
    some giant conspiracy

    More often, it's death by a thousand small cuts.

    Parent

    There aren't always (4.50 / 2) (#7)
    by NYShooter on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:43:23 PM EST
    two sides to a story, but usually there is....just a question of degrees.

    Barney, and his little buddies, Freddie, Fanny, Nancy, John, Spanky, and Alfalfa, WERE complicit in the current debacle......to some degree.

    Voter fraud? Wow! The Dems really wanna make an issue of this? I don't think our 40% slime gets us a gold star compared to their 60%

    I don't know why, but a weird thought just popped into my head. Maybe Dr. Freud needs a visit, Anyway, have you noticed (at least everything I've read about the famous serial killers points it out) that they all flew into a rage of indignation at having been accused of 78 murders, when they were really only guilty of the 73 they confessed to?

    Weird, isn't it?


    You win a gold star for most (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:47:46 PM EST
    rational defense of Republican miscreance of the weekend.

    Parent
    Personally the biggest voter fraud stuff (4.50 / 2) (#12)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:55:35 PM EST
    Is voter intimidation on election day.  When I was working for Moveon PAC in Minnesotta last election I personally saw 1) letters going to minority neighborhoods telling people that republicans voted on Day X and Democrats voted on Day Y (of course day X was the real day), 2) Calls from the Secretary of state telling people there voting place had changed when it hadn't, 3) people approaching my volunteers and telling them they couldn't be there, in that case I would have them call me immediately- I would tell them to ask for ID, and these intimidating people would suddenly disappear.  

    I am guessing Dems might try to do this if they could, but generally speaking the Republican base has a stronger history of voting and know the rules, and these things wouldn't work.  

    The most systemic voter suppression is taking away the vote of previous criminals that have served their time.  There is no justification for this.  Again, the fact that Republicans want less people to vote can directly be equated to their to rights weak ideas and policy positions.

    Alll those things happened in Ohio in 2004 (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by sallywally on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 09:35:00 PM EST
    as well as way, way too few voting machines in minority and university districts across the state and a strange, sudden and complete reversal of exit poll results after Kerry had pulled well ahead (the only other time that happened as far as I know was in FL in 2000)....

    Sec of State Blackwell threw out registrations because they were on the "wrong" pound weight of paper (even if printed out from his own web site). He had to stop after being sued, but that didn't bring back the registrations he threw out.

    He went after provisional ballots and had to be sued to allow them.

    Even the Republican head of my county's board of elections had to sue Blackwell.

    I know stealing the vote might seem like a conspiracy theory, but having lived through the GOP's relentless efforts in that regard in so many ways, small, large, obvious and very low-key, it's hard to totally discount them.

    Parent

    Intimidation probably qualifies (none / 0) (#18)
    by shoephone on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:05:21 PM EST
    as "suppression" rather than "fraud". Sending out letters with false information is right up there with voter "caging" which, I have read, may have suppressed 10,000-20,000 Democratic votes in Florida in 2004. The GOP really pulls out all the stops when it comes to preventing democracy.

    Parent
    The Justice Department defines (none / 0) (#147)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 05:13:04 PM EST
    systemic voter suppression/intimidation as a form of election fraud. In cases of voter caging and deliberate disinformation, agents of the electoral system are perpetrating a fraud on voters.  

    Parent
    Didn't you know that non-existent voters (4.00 / 1) (#6)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:42:08 PM EST
    threaten the integrity of the election results?
    There is a whole universe of fantasy voters out there whose very non-existence makes any Democrat's victory questionable.

    BTD, do you also refute the CONYERS REPORT? (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 08:59:04 PM EST
    For anybody's who's interested here's a link to download the pdf of the of the House Judiciary Committee findings on the '04 election, The Conyers Report: What Went Wrong in Ohio. It's 102 pages long. I'm sure I'm not alone in having  read it front to back. I found it entirely credible.

    This is the official record of testimony taken by the Democratic Members and Staff of the House Judiciary Committee, presided over by Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the Ranking Member. Originally released in January, 2005 by the Committee and now available in print for the first time.

    Witnesses included both Republicans and Democrats, elected officials, voting machine company employees, poll observers, and many voters who testified about the harassment they endured, some of which led to actual vote repression.

    While shreds of the electoral chaos in Ohio were reported in the press, the issue soon faded from public view. What Went Wrong In Ohio provides new insights into the abuse and manipulation of electronic voting machines and the arbitrary and illegal behavior of a number of elected and election officials which effectively disenfranchised tens of thousands of voters in order to change the outcome of an election.




    Parent
    If the fantasy voter is named Darth Vader, (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Christy1947 on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 09:39:12 PM EST
    Darth Vader in my state has to show up and produce a driver's license or utility bill at his voting address before he can go into the voting booth. Not darned likely.

    the scan is to mess up the verification procedures in phony dudgeon over the application for registrtion of Mr. Vader, not his actual registration. Apparently the loss of voting rights for ten thousand honest voters is not to small a price to keep old Darth from voting.

    Parent

    For the record (4.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:08:15 PM EST
    I personally find Mark Cripin Miller utterly without credibility and believe he and his allies do the real work of fighting voter suppression a great disservice,

    Hence, I diassociate myself quite vehemently from this post. TChris does not speak for me at all when he cites Mark Crispin Miller as an authority on anything.

    Some history (none / 0) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:42:06 PM EST
    on Mark Crispin Miller - see this review of his ridiculous book about the 2004 election by Salon.

    Parent
    This is the type of person (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:51:51 PM EST
    Crispin Miller is, from the Salon article:

    "On Friday, this last Friday night, I arranged to meet Senator Kerry at a fundraiser to give him a copy of my book," Miller said. "He told me he now thinks the election was stolen."

    Now, this was big news. If what Miller said about Kerry was right, it would have signaled a momentous shift in thinking for the senator. For a year now, partisans on the left who say that Bush stole last year's presidential race have had a hard time making their claim stick precisely because Kerry, the man they allege was the main victim of the fraud, had so quickly conceded the election and so thoroughly ignored any suggestion that it had been rigged. But if Kerry now thought that these people were right -- if Kerry now believed Bush didn't actually win the race -- well, that would change everything. Suddenly the year-long online barrage of half-baked theories and misreported election data that some people say proves a massive, successful Republican conspiracy to install Bush in the White House would have found a very prominent, aggrieved backer, someone to finally make the case to the world that Americans had been cheated of their rightful president.

    Unfortunately for the partisans, Miller's Kerry blockbuster quickly fizzled. "I know Mr. Miller is trying to sell his book and he feels passionately about his thesis, but his recent statements about his conversation with Senator Kerry are simply not true," Jenny Backus, a Kerry spokeswoman, told Raw Story shortly after the "Democracy Now!" broadcast. "The only thing true about his recollection of the conversation is that he gave Senator Kerry a copy of his book."

    This is not the type of person to be cited by Talk Left as an authoritiative source on anything imo.

    Parent

    I remember that (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Lora on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 10:43:39 PM EST
    If I can possibly find a link, I will.

    As I recall, at the time Miller himself described his meeting with Kerry.  He gave him the book and said to Kerry something like, "You know, the election was stolen," and according to Miller, Kerry replied, "I know!"  This was a private conversation, later disavowed by the Kerry contingent.

    Now, it's Miller's word against the Kerry people.  I don't know who is more credible.  But I clearly remember Kerry promising to make sure every vote was counted in Ohio.  He reneged on his promise.  That is a fact.

    Parent

    Miller on Democracy Now (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Lora on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:38:12 PM EST
    From an interview with Amy Goodman on NOv 4, 2005: Kerry Told Me He Now Thinks the Election Was Stolen
    Speaking of John Kerry, I have some news for you. On Friday, this last Friday night, I arranged to meet Senator Kerry at a fundraiser to give him a copy of my book. He told me he now thinks the election was stolen. He said he doesn't believe that he is the person who can go out front on the issue, because of the sour grapes, you know, question. But he said he believes it was stolen.


    Parent
    Amy Goodman trusts Mark Crispin Miller right? (none / 0) (#124)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 04:20:09 AM EST
    I formed my own opinion some time ago. But, it's always good to know that I'm on the same page as Amy and Democracy Now.

    Parent
    Only a statistician could (none / 0) (#55)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:55:44 PM EST
    comment on matters like this with some confidence, IMO.

    Parent
    Indeed, someone like (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:00:17 PM EST
    Febble, aka Elizabeth Liddle.

    Parent
    The problem with all of it (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:52:17 PM EST
    Sans Miller and Harris and whatever other personalities out there one doesn't like, It takes a massive amount of naive hope to think, in this day and age, with the Democratic candidate being who he is, that some major piece of fraud with electronic voting is not going to occur.  The warnings have been blared for years and we, largely, have kept our heads in the sand.  Just like we did with the economy.  Are you honestly going to claim, Tent, that electronic voting is secure and safe?  Are you really?

    Parent
    Too bad Liddle didn't... (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Dadler on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 05:23:27 PM EST
    ...make her analysis while taking into account the specific kind of voting procedure and equipment (paper vs. electronic) used in every different precinct.  As Rick Brady says in the comments section to someone bringing this point up: "...I think the question is good because we don't quite know what her bias index would look like by vote equipment."  We don't quite know is being charitable.  We don't know at all is more like it.  We are entrusting our votes to machines and technology "we the people" ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CONTROL AND MONITOR, we are farming our elections out, in large part, to private corporations.  We wouldn't do that with Social Security, especially in light of the economic disaster we're in.  Why is it acceptable in elections?  It is a clear recipe for electoral disaster.  Ignore it if you wish, but logic is going to bit you in the ace with it someday very soon.

    Parent
    Febble link (none / 0) (#143)
    by Lora on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 05:10:12 PM EST
    As I see it, Liddle is saying that Republican voters who were reluctant to be interviewed, combined with newbie polsters, could, by a complicated statistical model, possibly account for the Kerry shift of the exit polls.  There is no evidence to support this claim.

    As opposed to the USCV report which concludes that fraud most likely accounted for the difference between the exit polls and the posted election results.  For which there is mountains of evidence.

    Occam's razor, anyone?

    Parent

    Wasn't Bob Fritakis from Ohio state (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by hairspray on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 08:25:57 PM EST
    a statistician?  He pushed the Ohio 2004 election as hard as he could to get it investigated.  Poor John Conyers sat in empty basements holding meeting of his committee trying to get someone to pay attention.

    Parent
    Sounds familiar. I'm just saying that (none / 0) (#79)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 08:30:28 PM EST
    Mark Crispin Miller can't possibly be a serious source, unless he has someone 'fessing up to cheating. This is a question which is best tackled by statistical methods.

    Parent
    What do you mean by this statement? (none / 0) (#148)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 05:18:49 PM EST
    Mark Crispin Miller can't possibly be a serious source, unless he has someone 'fessing up to cheating.

    Specifically, what "cheating" has MCM engaged in?

    MCM described a conversation with John Kerry which a Kerry campaign spokesperson subsequently denied. Why would you find the campaign spokesperson more credible than MCM? Or are you referring to something else?

    Parent

    See link to Conyers Report: comment #83 (none / 0) (#84)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 09:03:16 PM EST
    Liars, Damn Liars, and Statisticians (none / 0) (#60)
    by robrecht on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:02:57 PM EST
    Confidence does not mean correctness.  On that Kerry would agree.

    Parent
    And Jenny's creds are...? (none / 0) (#110)
    by Lora on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:42:32 PM EST
    In the new revised edition of (none / 0) (#119)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 01:35:48 AM EST
    Fooled Again, MCM responds to Farhad Manjoo's Salon review of the first edition of the book.

    Miller also takes on the other deniers on the left who, evidently, feel all emasculated by the thought of having a second election stolen in '04.

    Let's keep our fingers, and legs, crossed for '08.

    Parent

    disbelief (none / 0) (#101)
    by Palli on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 10:58:25 PM EST
    I guess you weren't an observer at Ohio BOE Recounts in December 2004.

    Parent
    What is "media ecology"?: (4.00 / 1) (#51)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:50:42 PM EST
    Mark Crispin Miller

    New York University, Steinhardt School of Culture, Education, and Human Development

    Professor of Media Ecology
     

    Ugh. That's "media studies" (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Cream City on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:00:31 PM EST
    under a new moniker, I bet.  Media studies trains "media critics."  The fastest-growing area of study in many journalism schools, seeing a (sensible on the part of students) decline in enrollments in areas such as print journalism (i.e., training 21st-century students for 19th-century newspapering).

    Journalism schools are growing more and more of these "media studies" grads who take few or no courses in media production but many in media effects.

    In other words, they're training pundits -- people who couldn't put together a standard three-take story on deadline, much less a decent lede, but they sure can "deconstruct" those who do.
     

    Parent

    Miller also signed this: (none / 0) (#68)
    by oculus on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:59:24 PM EST
    Do ya think that people (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:22:27 PM EST
    are smart enough to figure out that fake registrations do not equal votes or is reflected in Obama's rather strong lead in the polls? I have my doubts, and the Dems better speak about this in plain terms NOW.

    Strange that CNN won't point that out (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by coigue on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 10:33:07 PM EST
    In fact, the person being defrauded by this escapade is the person paying for the registrations...that person is Obama.

    Parent
    How do we know.. (none / 0) (#15)
    by coast on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:59:52 PM EST
    what is the purpose of getting fraudulant registrations?  When decreased people cast votes after they have passed it's still a vote counted.  Fact is Democrats believe the machines and the systems are flawed.  Republicans believe that the voter rolls are flawed. One yells racism while the other yells fraud.  Neither side innocent.

    Parent
    Um, no. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:07:43 PM EST
    One can check the voter rolls against the lists of people who actually voted. Voter fraud of THAT nature is quite rare.

    Parent
    There can be chaos at the polls (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Cream City on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:52:54 PM EST
    which could lead neither to voter fraud nor to voter suppression in its usual meaning, but with similar impact of voter suppression as long lines just lead voters to leave.

    Whether or not it is the purpose, it can be the effect of the rolls that may be a mess, we're warned.  We're also warned in my state to be ready to show ID, even if we're regular voters, because the rolls may be a mess.  We have fought off voter ID, but now we're going to get it, anyway -- and if people don't have acceptable IDs and have to go home to get them, will they come back to get in long lines again?  Etc.

    Parent

    Unfortunately this post does not even (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Ginny in CO on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 04:24:51 PM EST
    cover the information released by ACORN 2 days ago.

    The whole thing is typical of GOP smears.

    Ambinder does a thorough job at the Atlantic.

    Although BTD will probably refuse to be associated with this too.

    Calling someone a name does not make an argument. I have my differences with Miller. My conclusions are based on a LOT more than his book or blog. 20 years since first experiencing having my vote suppressed by an evangelical controlled state GOP, I've been active in campaigns, read a lot and watched the trends, stats, stories. The stupid thing is that Assisant Pastor for the Anchorage Baptist Temple drove me from being a dissatisfied GOP member to an active Democrat who has helped bring the GOP down where we can bury it (and maybe Grover too).

     Will we ever be able to prove it? Probably not, and because the questions cannot be answered, we can't disprove it either. What has been established is that it was possible.  He's been POTUS for almost 4 more years. So, mas nicht. The point is to prevent as much of the stuff that can be hidden as possible this year and forward.

    BTW, I am still concerned about the machines. Since we know how to identify the statistically impossible results, I think that may be mitigated enough. That may be why they are going after voter fraud, which cannot be done on the magnitude of electronic vote switching. I am also amused that Sarah has pretty much backfired in getting the base out to volunteer.  Sean at FiveThirtyEight found the McCain office in Troy, Ohio was not open yesterday. Go figure.

    Parent

    I thought the problem (none / 0) (#76)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 08:05:05 PM EST
    at least with -- ACT? -- was that workers have gotten paid per registration.  I do not know if that is the case with ACORN.  And, I do not know what hard numbers are involved with claims of "fraudulent" registrations by ACORN. There are allegations, and there are facts.

    Parent
    Not worried (none / 0) (#5)
    by BrassTacks on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 02:40:22 PM EST
    This is just silly.  We are so far ahead, I am just not worried.  I have little doubt that there will be some frauds committed by both sides.  I also have little doubt that we will win, big.  

    Allright. (none / 0) (#38)
    by shoephone on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:24:24 PM EST
    I am simply pointing out that there is a gap in the numbers between those two things. I always get a little hot under the collar about this because I firmly believe that my U.S. atty, John McKay, was fired because Rove and the WA State GOP bulldozed him on the phony voter fraud case from the 2004 gubernatorial election.

    Guess what? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 03:30:39 PM EST
    Then you should be mad at Crispin Miller who does disservice to that issue for which you have anger.

    Parent
    A fact, please (none / 0) (#96)
    by Lora on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 10:37:20 PM EST
    May I ask (none / 0) (#74)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 07:53:14 PM EST
    the basis for your claiming Mark Crispin Miller is a fraud?  He has a Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins and is a professor at NYU -- has been there for some time?

    Wow, what heat. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Realleft on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 08:44:30 PM EST
    Electronic vote registering without voter confirmation and without a paper trail is undemocratic and suggests greed, desire to alter election results, or both.  From my POV, that distracts from a basic point that commercial proprietary closed systems such as Premier elections should have no place in elections.

    All that aside, and I'll probably be slammed for this here, but at this moment I am not terribly unhappy that Kerry wasn't elected - IMO he wasn't leader material no matter what other strengths he has. Bush's second term administration was not as bad as his first, though still bad and I am happy to see his popularity ratings in the gutter where they belong.  I think it is likely that Kerry would have been weak, and we'd now be looking at a Republican resurgence rather than a Democratic rise.

    If Ohio had been an honest election in 2004... (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Palli on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 10:55:09 PM EST
    Ohio did not conduct an honest election in 2004 or an honest recount,  To say that the last four years of Bush/Cheney has been better than the first four years is disgraceful disregard for the thousands of lives that have been lost and ruined.  Even with your premise...I'd rather have weak democracy than the "strong" constitutional corruption we got.

    Parent
    You miss my point. (none / 0) (#113)
    by Realleft on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 12:32:40 AM EST
    First, Kerry wasn't running on an anti-Iraq-war, but was planning to increase troop levels. I believe the war would have continued, badly, and with many thousands of lives still lost and ruined.  Instead of Americans beginning to wake up and usher in a new era, we may be looking at continued Republican rule of Congress and returning another Republican to the White House.

    Second, even if Kerry would have tried to turn the tide, I don't believe he could have.  IMO, he simply did not have the leadership skills or vision to be able to do it.  

    I believe we need a fundamental shift of perspective and direction, not just four years back and forth.   We're now looking at a Democratic President, House, and within a few votes of a filibuster-proof Senate.  I also believe that we may have a President soon who can guide America around the corner instead of just temporarily slowing the pace in the direction this country's been heading.  Part of this new direction must be to restore and safeguard the Constitution, and another part must be to reduce the potential for corruption in elections.

    Parent

    He was definitelly talking about (none / 0) (#140)
    by sallywally on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 02:58:09 PM EST
    diplomacy all around and working out a way to bring the troops back.

    I understood him as favoring an end to the war and working with the rest of the world to bring it about.

    Parent

    I'm scared to death of white people!! (none / 0) (#82)
    by iknowdou on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 08:57:55 PM EST
    If you're poor and/or a minority in America, don't expect your vote to count? I don't understand. Isn't this a crime?

    Where is our leadership to hold people responsible. There can never be true justice in this country if the powerful lawmakers and law enforcers do not hold those responsible to account for their role in these crimes. Or maybe they're not crimes, since nothing happens if you commit the worst crime of them all, stealing our vote! I do not understand!!

    This lawlessness can not go unpunished if our society wants to preserve any pretense of civility!

    The case of (none / 0) (#86)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 09:06:05 PM EST
    attempted voter suppression I remember, mainly because I was Military at the time, was when there was a democrat move to disqualify military absentee ballots in FL.

    Would that be this? (none / 0) (#88)
    by Realleft on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 09:26:57 PM EST
    "According to unofficial tallies, 1,547 overseas absentee ballots -- about 40 percent of the total Florida received -- were thrown out by county elections workers, mostly because they lacked either a date or a signature, or in some cases because they were not filed by registered voters."

    Worldnetdaily

    Parent

    Wile ECoyote (none / 0) (#108)
    by standingup on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 11:37:10 PM EST
    is intellectually dishonest.  He or she is using propaganda deployed by the Bush campaign and GOP in 2000 to make it appear that Gore and Democrats were challenging military absentee ballots.  I suggest reading a more reliable source than World Net Daily.  The NYT published an article that covers the story very well after they completed a 6 month investigation of the Florida 2000 absentee votes.

    However, the GOP did have members of the military on lists of voters they attempted to cage in Florida in 2004.  See the Brennan Center's A Guide to Voter Caging from June 2007.    

    Parent

    The problem (none / 0) (#133)
    by coast on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 08:52:15 AM EST
    is that whether there is voter suppression or fraud it takes a six month long investigation to figure out what the true outcome is.  Because of this, no one trust the system as it stands now.

    Parent
    Not exactly true (none / 0) (#142)
    by standingup on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 04:49:15 PM EST
    First, there is a distinct difference between voter suppression and election fraud.  

    Second, in the case of the absentee ballots in Florida in 2000 the GOP seized upon a copy of a Democratic research memo they obtained.  There was no supporting evidence of the Democrats acting on the memo.  In fact, there were public announcements from the Gore campaign in support of counting all the military absentee ballots.  But if people choose to ignore the facts and believe the GOP propaganda, then an investigation might help to determine it for some of them.  

    On the other hand, the Republicans have claimed there is rampant voter fraud for years and investigations have shown that is not true.  Yet they continue to raise it as an issue every election cycle, just as they are doing again this year with ACORN.    

    There is documented evidence of attempts by the GOP to suppress minority voters.  They managed to do it in Florida and Missouri in 2000.  They tried again in Florida and Ohio in 2004.  And we are seeing what appears to more attempts to do it in 2008 in some of the key battleground states where purging may have been done in violation of federal election laws intended to stop the suppression of votes via eliminating people from the voter rolls and using foreclosure lists for poll challenges.  There are more than I include here that have been documented.  

    This is not to say there have not been Democrats who have engaged in fraud before but those have really been limited to individual cases.  

    Parent

    Yes, wonderful!!! (none / 0) (#90)
    by sallywally on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 09:35:27 PM EST


    So what is the answer (none / 0) (#93)
    by coast on Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 10:07:14 PM EST
    voter suppression and electronic voting machines are the hot nuttons for Democrats.  Answers to this are paper ballots and same day registration with limited or no identification?  You think the lines are long now.  How much longer would they be if we went back to paper ballots.  Will a nonpartisian company supply the machines that read the ballots?  Republicans are fearful fraud with the voter rolls.  The solution to this is to require a valid ID.  But this does keep people who are legally allowed to vote away.  So does anyone have a solution that solves both concerns?

    Regarding paper ballots (none / 0) (#116)
    by shoephone on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 12:59:29 AM EST
    Oregon has gone to all mail-in ("absentee")balloting. Many counties in Washington, including King County (the largest), have or are going to all mail-in ballots. Other states are considering it as well.

    Mail-in ballots are... wait for it... paper.

    Parent

    Sounds good to me. (none / 0) (#132)
    by coast on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 08:46:25 AM EST
    That would also solve the line issue for the most part.  I've never received an absentee ballot so forgive the ignorance, but I would imagine they are preprinted with the registered voters information on them?  How are they verified?  In other words, if I have moved during the year what process is in place to make sure that if I go and register with my new address and either vote at the polling place or thru absentee ballot that a ballot is not sent to my previous address.  In other words, how does the state verify that there are not duplicate registrations?

    Parent
    Aaaahhhh... (none / 0) (#135)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 12:35:14 PM EST
    Fraud by Dems is defensible because their fraud is ineffective.
    Acorn workers who apparently registered nonexistent people (who are, by definition, incapable of voting)
    I get it now.

    We get it BTD (none / 0) (#136)
    by dutchfox on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 02:11:35 PM EST
    I mean, like, you've repeated it more than enough on this thread anyway.

    As for this speaking for myself only disclaimer:
    It's redundant, really. If you put your name on a post, it's yours, not anyone elses. That's understood!  Jeralyn and T Chris write theirs and you guys may differ, but seriously there's no need for you to do the extra for me only bit.

    BTD, I wasn't talking about you. (none / 0) (#141)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 02:58:53 PM EST
    I used a non-gender specific pronoun "s/he" because I don't know the sex of the "contrarian" in question.

    A careful, open look at the evidence (none / 0) (#144)
    by Lora on Mon Oct 13, 2008 at 05:20:20 PM EST
    It's all I want.

    Let's leave the names behind.  I've been looking very, very hard at this stuff for (I bet) longer than you have, BTD.

    How about, never mind who has discovered it, let's look at it and see what has been found.

    If it's crap, throw it out.  But let's not judge it because so-and-so says it's crap because they don't like the discoverer.