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Drinking in Wisconsin

Wisconsin's Green Bay Packers fans live for three things (four if you count wearing cheeseheads): alcohol, football championships, and beating (ideally sweeping) da Bears (in pro football's longest consecutive game rivalry). Although you are free to discuss any of those (and the links) in the comments, this post focuses upon the alcohol link. (Coincidentally, though, native Packers fans defeat native Bears fans in per capita beer consumption. We're number one!)

Wisconsinites loves us some beer. And brandy. The elitist New York Times with its fancy east coast values is aghast to learn that a 12 year old child can belly up to a Wisconsin bar and order a Miller Lite, so long as mom or dad or some reasonable facsimile is present and gives permission -- and provided the bartender will serve the kid (more likely in rural taverns where the bartenders own the place and aren't inclined to lecture their patrons about their parenting skills). Wisconsinites are equally aghast to learn that in other states, parents can't bring their children along on a tavern crawl. What kind of family values are those? [more ...]

In Wisconsin, we get used to reporters fretting about our record-setting alcohol consumption. Most of us take a balanced view. We know (and we believe the knowledge is spreading) that the State's cultural acceptance (and encouragement) of drunkenness is unhealthy.

On the other hand, we look around and see the people who drink a six pack at night getting up and milking the cows or reporting for first shift the next morning. We see a comparatively resilient state economy that benefits from a well educated, reliable workforce -- alcohol consumption notwithstanding.

Many Wisconsinites have lived or grown up in small Wisconsin towns that are filled with churches and bars, the two (commonly overlapping) providers of places for community members to gather. We're familiar with the unincorporated municipalities in rural areas that consist of a tavern and the tavern owner's house (sometimes combined in the same structure) where the surrounding farm families gather to spend the evening. We don't overreact to the use of alcohol as a social lubricant.

Many of us obtained a decent education at an institution formerly (and historically) recognized as the nation's number one party school. We survived, frequently the better for the experience.

The social fabric in Wisconsin does not seem to us to be tearing apart simply because another reporter wants to accuse us of binge drinking. We know what that means.

Binge drinking is defined as five drinks in a sitting for a man, four for a woman.

Apart from the sexist assumption that women are incapable of drinking men under the table (alcohol tolerance has something to do with physical characteristics but a lot more to do with practice), Wisconsinites understand that "five drinks in a sitting" could cover a six to ten hour period. Hey, it's cold outside. All we do is sit. Five beers in a sitting isn't a binge. That's a football game.

After asking around, the Times reporter is tempted to blame the Germans for Wisconsin's rapacious appetite for alcohol, but dutifully balances that view with the news that "some experts ... are skeptical" of the ethnic explanation. That's fair, because it's not like Wisconsin's Norwegians are teetotalers.

Let's hope that this will not be representative of the liberal elitist latte-drinking Times coverage of Wisconsin. Hey reporters, knock it off. We voted blue. Way blue. Go pick on Tennessee.

One specific complaint does need to be lodged against the reporter's claim that Wisconsin is reluctant to treat drunk drivers harshly. It is true that the Tavern League had some significant pull in the state legislature in years past. It is also true that pressure from MADD, federal mandates, and the political mileage to be gained by being "tough on drunk drivers" have caused Wisconsin's laws to toughen considerably over the last two decades.

Wisconsin imposes mandatory jail sentences upon multiple offenders and mandatory minimum fines and license revocations upon all offenders. Penalties are keyed to blood alcohol levels so the most dangerous drivers receive the stiffest sentences. Some states appear to have tougher laws but in reality the sentence or revocation is stayed or suspended or dramatically shortened. Not in Wisconsin. Ask any Wisconsin driver convicted of impaired driving, particularly a multiple offender, and you won't hear him laughing about how easily he got off.

Attitudinal changes cannot be legislated. With education, healthier attitudes will spread over the course of time. Yet another increase in the impaired driving penalties is not an effective answer.

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    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Tinat on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 05:17:27 PM EST
    thanks for bringing back memories of Wisconsin. Really, what would a Catholic church picnic be without the 3 B's: brandy, beer and booyah :)

    2.5+ gallons capita consumption per year per adult (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by JSN on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 05:36:45 PM EST
    corresponds to about 1 ounce per adult per day. Obviously some Badgers are drinking more than the average.

    In rural areas the only places for local people and their families to eat out are restaurant/bars and their main source of part time kitchen and wait staff are high school students. So the law allows persons under the legal age to be on the premises.

    In Iowa (and I suppose Wisconsin) it is legal for a persons under the legal age to consume alcohol if it is provided by a parent or guardian in a private place. It sounds like in Wisconsin it is also OK in a public place.

    My grandson worked in a restaurant/bar where he brought unopened beer bottles to the customers when he was in high school but he could not serve mixed drinks. In other places in the county all drinks were served by a person older than the legal age. I guess the difference is in the local open container ordinance. There were similar restrictions on handling cigarets cartons were OK but not packs.

    Any attempt to make bars 21 only in Iowa would be killed by rural legislators because it would wipe out the small town restaurant.

    Alcohol researchers in Europe and Australia us the frequency of intoxication as the independent variable rather than the binge drinking rate. They got it right because if you drink a six pack during an all day picnic you probably will not become intoxicated..

    Nothing to be proud of (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Lora on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 06:46:56 PM EST
    In 2007, Alcohol-related traffic fatalities in Wisconsin were 41.4% of total traffic fatalities, the fourth highest percentage in the country.

    That IS Horrible! (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Amiss on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 01:04:19 AM EST
    I grew up in a very rural community along the Florida coast, it is the largest UNDEVELOPED coast in Florida, and the residents prefer to keep it that way. Much is smuggled in through those barrier islands in the dark where only someone raised here would know how to navigate. Growing up, we used to have "Granny" if you were tall enough to put your money on the counter, she would sell you alcohol. I have seen 8 year olds buying their colt 45 from her many times in years gone by.

    Parent
    Yes. The attitude (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Cream City on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 06:12:38 AM EST
    in this post is too typical of too many Wisconsinites, and I say that as one.

    And I see it in young people all around me, even more than before.  So I wonder, when I teach them, how many will I be reading about in the obituaries as victims of drunk driving -- their own.  I cannot imagine that experience is too typical of teachers elsewhere.

    Parent

    Hmmm. Iowa: state package stores. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 06:59:45 PM EST
    Illinois:  no.  "Going across the river" was a common term in my youth.

    Oh, how awful! (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 07:18:47 PM EST
    My sympathies.  Must have been terrible, both of those events, for your family.

    Back in the Day (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by kaleidescope on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 07:54:11 PM EST
    That would be the mid-Seventies, I delivered pizza for a now-defunct Madison pizza operation.  My normal territory was Willy Street, but occasionally, I'd get shipped to the University Avenue store.  That would mean I got to deliver to the dorms.

    Drinking age then was 18 and on Fridays the first pizza deliveries were to the lakeshore dorms at around 4:30.  What you would get in those days was that each dorm had a TGIF sponsored by a major brewery:  Miller, Budweiser, Heilman.  Full on professionally painted banners, an infinite supply of half barrels and someone paid to pour.  And what the students got was as many sixteen ounce plastic cups of beer as they could choke down for ten cents a cup.

    It was fairly amusing to see dozens of eighteen year olds puking drunk by 5:30 in the evening.  One night I was delivering to, I think, Ogg West.  In the lobby was a very young woman -- maybe she was eighteen.  She was so drunk she couldn't stand up. She was obviously going to be unconscious in very short order.  One of the RA's asked a crowd of other students who would take care of her.  A creepy looking guy gave a creepy laugh and said he would.  A bunch of other kids laughed and the RA let the creep take her upstairs.

    I still feel bad about letting that one happen.  But then I was working.

    It was certainly a boon for the brewing companies to use the TGIFs to cement brand loyalty -- turning kids into alcoholics hooked on Bud.

    Me, I preferred dropping acid or eating morning glory seeds.  Seeing so many of my classmates puking drunk and getting raped kind of took the fun out of drinking.

    Don't think so (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Lora on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 08:20:21 PM EST
    Binge drinking is defined as five drinks in a sitting for a man, four for a woman.
    Apart from the sexist assumption that women are incapable of drinking men under the table (alcohol tolerance has something to do with physical characteristics but a lot more to do with practice)...

    Sorry, no.  First of all, drinking someone "under the table" may have something to do with practice, but the physiological effects of alcohol have a great deal to do with body weight, body type, and the amount of alcohol dehydrogenase you produce.  Women are generally smaller than men, produce less alcohol dehydrogenase, and get drunk quicker. Nothing sexist about it.

    First, (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by TChris on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 10:16:19 PM EST
    basing definitions on generalized characteristics of women and men is, indeed, sexist.  I know a lot of Wisconsin women who are bigger than I am and quite capable of out-binging me. Second, the physiogical effects of alcohol vary from person to person and depend not just on size and body chemistry but upon stomach contents and tolerance, among other factors. Generalizations about a man's five drinks equaling a woman's four drinks have little real world validity.

    Parent
    True, and good to see that you (3.50 / 2) (#26)
    by Cream City on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 06:15:04 AM EST
    changed to basing this on weight.  Your statement about being able to handle more drinks based on "practice" is just awful -- have you read anything about the early physiological stages of alcoholism?!

    Parent
    Yes, (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by TChris on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 11:22:28 AM EST
    I've read quite a bit about it, and the knowledge that I've acquired makes it clear to me that people of the same weight and metabolism and gender with the same stomach contents will react very differently to increasing blood alcohol levels depending upon their tolerance ... and tolerance is a function of the frequency of alcohol consumption (i.e., practice).  It shouldn't come as a shock that experienced drinkers function much more capably at, say, a 0.10 BAC compared to an inexperienced drinker with the same BAC.

    There is nothing "awful" about the truth.

    Parent

    "Generalizations" (none / 0) (#32)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 01:30:58 PM EST
    Generalizations about a man's five drinks equaling a woman's four drinks have little real world validity.
    Maybe so, but I think people are generally smart enough to know that alc's effect is often related to their size and that that's where the 5/4 benchmark comes from.

    I also think people are generally smart enough to adjust such broad generalizations if they, personally, are a small guy or big woman.

    So I think it at least gives people a broad and understandable benchmark.

    Regardless, I don't see how the 5/4 benchmark is sexist, unless you think it somehow makes women inferior or less valuable.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#33)
    by TChris on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 03:02:15 PM EST
    the definition of "binge drinking" is wholly arbitrary, and the fact that it differs for women without regard to weight or alcohol tolerance makes it even more arbitrary. And yes, I think the assumption that women should be characterized as problem ("binge") drinkers after 4 drinks, while men are allowed to drink more before they are regarded as having a problem, is quite sexist.

    Parent
    I assume you meant to write: (none / 0) (#34)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 03:19:46 PM EST
    and the fact that it differs for people without regard to weight or alcohol tolerance
    in order not to be sexist, right?

    Regardless, 5/4 is a benchmark and is based on some reasonable assumptions in an effort to give some definition to a difficult issue. It's far from perfect, but it is based on some reasonable  assumptions.

    I think whether "binging" on 5/4 beers at a "sitting" constitutes a "problem" is pretty much a matter of opinion, but maybe that was your point...

    Parent

    TChris (none / 0) (#35)
    by Lora on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 04:08:29 PM EST
    It's no more sexist to acknowledge general medical differences between men and women than it is ageist to decide that a driver's license should be issued to people older than, say, 16. I have known plenty of 16-year-olds who were not mature enough to handle the responsibilities of having a driver's license, and I am sure that there are occasional 15 year-olds who are able to do so.  It is an arbitrary limit but I don't know that it is ageist.  Kind of like deciding that an 18-year-old is not a minor any more.

    There are physiological differences between men and women that cause women in general to get drunk faster than men.  That isn't sexist, it is fact.  It doesn't apply to all women and men, certainly, but it applies to enough of them to make a general recommendation.  Whether the 5/4 recommendation is any more valid than a 10/8 recommendation, I don't know, but I believe there is enough evidence that a 5/5 or 10/10 recommendation would be inappropriate.

    See this from Scientific American.

    I've heard many people say they'd rather be with a habituated experienced legally drunk driver than an inexperienced sober driver.  I haven't seen or heard any statistics to back that up.  The only stats I've seen show that when you have more stringent rules about driving and alcohol and raise age limits, alcohol related deaths drop.  There are exceptions to every rule.  There is a group of people who do not wear seat belts because they can cite experiences in which a seat belt contributed to a death or injury or experiences in which not wearing one saved a life.  However the stats show that seat belts in general save lives.  I suspect the habitual drunk good-driver stories are the exception, not the rule.

    Parent

    I don't think (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by TChris on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 08:18:34 PM EST
    withholding benefits from children that are available to adults would be considered ageist by anyone.  I do think setting different ages for drivers license eligibility based on gender, because of generalizations about maturity levels or driving ability, would be sexist.

    There are "physiological differences" that make men likely to be stronger and faster than women, but those differences tell us nothing about the strength or speed of an individual woman.  By your standard, it is not sexist to refuse to employ women as police officers because "physiological differences" make men more suited for the job.

    There are "physiological differences" that make women more likely to leave the workforce than men, but those differences tell us nothing about whether a particular woman is or isn't likely to leave a job.  By your standard, it is not sexist to refuse to hire and train women for jobs because "physiological differences" make men more suited for long-term employment.

    Making judgments about an individual on the basis of undifferentiated membership in a gender is sexist.  The judgment that women are problem drinkers after having four drinks in a row, while men can handle one more before they become problem drinkers, is sexist.

    Parent

    Not my standard (none / 0) (#37)
    by Lora on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 08:47:30 PM EST
    It's not my standard to impose legal restrictions or restrict job opportunities based on gender.

    It's not my intent to suggest that men or women should be discriminated against because of gender.

    Perhaps I misunderstood?

    I'm not sure of the context of the binge drinking definition that you quoted (or which link it came from).  If it is in the context of some legal restriction then I agree with you.  But if it's in the context of how much a man or woman drinks in a certain period of time before it's considered a "binge drink episode" then I disagree.

    It seems to be an established fact that women in general get drunk on less alcohol than men.  If you are establishing guidelines to advise how much alcohol a person can drink before they are likely to do damage to themselves, it seems entirely appropriate to establish a differential based on gender, with the caveat that everyone is different but these are general guidelines.  The alternative is to put an entire group of people in general at higher risk.  Or, you can lower the amount and therefore neither men nor women are at risk, in general.  

    But to say that the same quantity of alcohol in a binge drinking episode will affect men and women the same way seems to fly in the face of scientific evidence.

    Parent

    There are gender differences in the (none / 0) (#38)
    by JSN on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 06:48:58 PM EST
    alcohol absorption and metabolism rates that may be due to differences in body water and enzymes. There may also be genetic differences that complicate the subject.

    The average alcohol metabolism rates often quoted are 0.020 per hour reduction in BAC by males and 0.015 per hour for females.

    Parent

    nothing romantic (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by candideinnc on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 08:54:28 PM EST
    I went to school in central Wisconsin in the '60s.  The bartenders at the college dive blinked at my being 17 because I came in with the 18-year-olds.  For most people that passed through that way, it was not a big deal.  For some it started a lifelong slide into a very dark world.  Every year there would be maimings and deaths on the Wisconsin highways.  

    I moved to the south when I went to graduate school, where the ethos about drinking was very different.  It took me many years to change my attitude about "social drinking," but it probably saved my life.  Don't romanticize the culture of booze.  As with any drug, it takes its toll.  Wisconsin was a wonderful state with charming, friendly people--people I miss deeply.  I wouldn't want my children to have the same access to liquor, though, that was made available to me.

    Kids in the tavern... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 07:59:33 AM EST
    Not sure if it was legal or not, but I spent many an afternoon hanging out with my old man at the local watering hole as a young lad.  Shooting pool, shooting the sh*t, running amok with the other kids...great memories, and all the sodas I could drink and Slim Jims I could eat:)  Dad was in his best moods at the pub with the fellas.

    And this in latte-liberal NYC, albeit a blue-collar enclave.

    I'd like to thank the Packer D (none / 0) (#1)
    by nycstray on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 04:40:02 PM EST
    and Crosby for a combined 31 points on my Fantasy team! Def helps me stay in first with a comfortable point lead for another week :D

    whatareya talkin about? (none / 0) (#2)
    by ChiTownDenny on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 04:50:36 PM EST
    Fuggedaboutit!

    I enjoyed reading this post. (none / 0) (#3)
    by Teresa on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 04:58:50 PM EST
    I must admit, if four is the limit, I have been a binge drinker many times in my life.

    The small town where I grew up had no liquor stores (still doesn't) so we had bootleggers. One that I visited as a teenager, even had a drive up window.

    They sold beer in addition to liquor so many of the teenagers spent their nights drinking beer and driving around. I can't believe none of us were killed. I'll bet the bootleggers still have a good business going.

    I spent more than half of my working life (none / 0) (#4)
    by kenosharick on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 05:12:00 PM EST
    in Wisconsin bars/restaurants until leaving to earn an advanced degree.  Must say- never saw a place that would serve a minor, but I did not work in rural family owned places so you could be right.  I grew up there in the 1970s, and drinking was THE thing to do. Man, I had a lot of fun.

    [cringe!] (none / 0) (#6)
    by Fabian on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 05:36:44 PM EST
    at talk about getting up and going to work after a night of drinking.

    I worked with two (or more?) alcoholics.  One did a grand job of showing up sober enough to work, but it was easy to see the toll it took on her physically.  The other one?  Someone from another department came in with a stat sample to test and after she dropped it off, she came anxiously looking for the supervisor.  It turns out the tech she gave the sample to smelled strongly of liquor.  

    That gave us all a helluva shock.  It may have been second shift, but it was beyond stupid to report for work drunk.  More like a giant step towards terminating your employment.  

    Plus the two experiences I had riding with drunk drivers (not by choice!) cured me of any temptation to repeat the experience as a passenger or driver.  

    (Capsule summary: I get picked up by a man to babysit while he and his wife go Christmas shopping.  After a hair raising ride to their home, I advise the wife that she should drive.  He insists he's fine, they leave.  Less than an hour later, they return after a near accident, shopping trip aborted.  I am carefully driven home by the freshly sober husband.  After considering a number of alternate endings to that story, I decided we got the "happy ending".)

    Er, "freshly sober" (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 07:15:59 PM EST
    or just alert sober?

    Scary to be a kid at the mercy of that!

    Parent

    By that time (none / 0) (#24)
    by Fabian on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 04:14:08 AM EST
    It had been over two hours since his office Christmas party.

    Plus this was driving in the dark, in a snowstorm and you need all of your senses and reflexes.

    So he was more sober than when I first saw him, and a lot more serious.   When he picked me up, he pulled out of our driveway and did a three-sixty that almost put us into a ditch - and laughed!  

    Parent

    Uh, alcohol stays in the body (2.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Cream City on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 06:17:23 AM EST
    for 30 days.  There's a reason for that being the standard dry-up schedule in rehab.

    Your driver still was drunk.  Just, yes, "alert drunk" -- probably black coffee competing with alcohol for every brain cell.

    Parent

    No it doesn't. (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by TChris on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 11:15:33 AM EST
    30 days is one of those myths that MADD-types like to perpetuate, but once you stop drinking, alcohol will almost always be eliminated from your system within 24 hours, usually much more quickly.  Of course, it can take an alcoholic considerably longer than a day to recover from cravings and alcohol withdrawal symptoms, which is why in-patient treatment is often a 28 day program.

    Parent
    And paying attention with (none / 0) (#28)
    by Fabian on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 07:27:01 AM EST
    every sober cell in his body.

    His wife really did try to keep him from getting behind the wheel.  Maybe if I had given her a few more details of our ride, she would have been more firm - like how he drove down a 55mph road on the yellow center line because it was easier to see than the white, snow covered edge lines.  Semis regularly use the road and between his impairment and the low visibility, I was terrified.

    Parent

    Death by alcoholism (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Lora on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 08:04:39 PM EST
    A colleague and friend of mine passed away recently at the age of 55 from alcoholism.  Although the details were kept secret, every sign indicated that her liver was no longer functional.  I must say that she was careful not to drink and drive.  She killed only herself and no one else at least.  It is a devastating disease.

    Parent
    Rural taverns (none / 0) (#8)
    by WorkinJoe on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 06:13:03 PM EST
    In my high school years in the mid-70s, there were far more rural taverns than survive now.  Ours was a rural high school, and several members of the track team would jog a mile down the road and rehydrate with a cold one at Granmas' joint before jogging back.  

    The raise in the drinking age to 21 has cut the drinking and reduced the rural taverns that subsisted on high school kids and HS grads that didn't attend college.

    I travel to many other states for my job and I'm surprised at times by the crazy restrictions states put on their beer sales.  I don't need someone else's morality telling me I can't buy a six-pack on a Sunday to have a beer in my hotel room.  

    How 'bout those Packers?  Crushed da Bears 37-3.  I had two beers and a Pepsi watching at a friends house.  

    two beers and a pepsi? (none / 0) (#13)
    by cpinva on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 07:02:42 PM EST
    I had two beers and a Pepsi watching at a friends house.

    kind of an odd combination there.

    let's be realistic, what the heck else is there to do in most rural areas of the US? our forefathers were notorious drinkers, and george washington had one of the first distilleries in the new country, at mount vernon. somehow, in spite of that, the country survived.

    to listen to the religious fanatics, you'd never guess that alcohol production/distribution was one of the earliest industries in the english colonies, along with tobacco cultivation. had it not been for those two, it's very likely the virginia colony would have failed as a commercial venture.

    in truth, i'd rather be on the road with professional drinkers, than the amatuers who show up on new year's eve.

    i forget who said it, but you really can't legislate morality.

    "lets be realistic- (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by kenosharick on Sun Nov 16, 2008 at 10:28:31 PM EST
    what the heck else is there to do" ??? Well, a lot actually. Sports, movies, reading,sleep, TV, video games, old-fashioned games, sex, crafts, computer blogging,on and on and on. I have one or two friends who say they drink out of boredom. I do not get it- never run out of things to do.

    Parent
    it seems to be almost a (none / 0) (#22)
    by cpinva on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 12:19:14 AM EST
    uniquely american issue. most european countries don't make nearly as big a deal about alcohol as we do (or sex, for that matter), and they either don't have as many problems, or hide it better.

    i know russia has a big alcoholism problem, but they're kind of a train wreck. as with sex, we send mixed messages: don't drink, but all the cool people do.

    fortunately for me, i just never really developed all that big a taste for it, so it's never been an issue.