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Late Night Open Thread

Dr. Pepper promised to give a free soda to everyone in America if the Guns & Roses album "Chinese Democracy" (delayed since 1994) saw a 2008 release. It goes on sale Sunday and is streaming on MySpace now.

Beginning Sunday at 12:01 a.m., coupons for a free 20-ounce soda will be available for 24 hours on Dr Pepper's Web site. They'll be honored until Feb. 28.

I'm more of a Pepsi guy, so my coupon is up for grabs.

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    Pepsi? Bleh (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 12:52:49 AM EST
    Diet Coke for me. (Not kidding; I go through a case a week).

    8 year old convicted of murder? (none / 0) (#2)
    by nellre on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 01:39:41 AM EST
    All you have to do is suggest that an 8 year old killed two people and everybody assumes it's true?
    This is horrific!
    Cops coached a confession, but they needn't bother. Folks seem to want to believe it.
    Sorry. I can't.
    You see, I have an 8 year old grandson, I had an 8 year old daughter at one time... I had an 8 year old brother and sister years ago, and finally I once was 8 years old. None would kill, all would have been suseptible of confessing if prodded.
    What kind of sick society is so willing to embrace this? I'm sickened by it.

    Really? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Fabian on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 07:32:28 AM EST
    I can.  The mindset of an eight year old is more cause and effect than moral right and wrong.

    There are simple forensic tests to determine if he had fired a gun recently.

    Just because no kid you know would do such a thing, doesn't mean that no such child exists.  

    Parent

    Things to be addressed (none / 0) (#3)
    by jem17 on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 01:57:38 AM EST
    Issues for the president

    Aiding parents with low skill levels to not be discriminated against.

    Aiding our critically ill disabled to gain benefits quicker.

    Aiding parents reentering the work force after being out of the work due to illness or lack of work for several years or being home with the kids  to not be discriminated against.

    Enforcing local laws more equally and concurrently.

    Evening out society behaviors against discriminations based upon stature or races.

    Maintaining opportunities to woman in business and minorities, such as single parents and youth for business.

    REFORMING THE DCFS TO AID CHILDREN TO GO TO BETTER HOMES MORE SUITED FOR THEIR LIFESTYLE OR RACE. Too many are being abused even in the foster homes., this is grave and cruel, some children who are being taken away from their original homes for lesser negligence such as a poverty stricken home, are being sent to foster homes where they are enduring other things like physical and mental abuse as well as neglect. Poverty is hitting us hard right now and needs to be addressed.
    More people should be summoned like the jury trials to volunteer for services to aid us in recovery of our current financial dilemma and crisis. Volunteering at food pantries or raising of money for food to send to the pantries. The supply is less and less.

    Discrimination is running rampid with regards to jobs, and social settings. Many employers are flat out telling applicants reasons for not hiring that go against the law. Little can be done to make this change at an applicant level. Attorneys charge in advance and laypeople simply cannot afford to fight the discrimination. Leaving several unemployed.

    Subject which are inhibiting applicants from getting hired:

    Sexist advancements
    Impeding on the Family Act of a loved one.
    Bad credit (this should never be allowed to inhibit someone from getting a job)
    Having children
    Race and gender
    No connections.

    These all violate many laws, yet little can be done to pursue the rights of the individual when they are simply not able to spend money for an attorney.

    I thought attorneys were supposed to base their case on winning if they can show that their client is innocent and needs representation. Attorneys that take money upfront are selfish and not withstanding the honor of their oath. If an attorney does not feel confident enough that he/she can win the case, then no upfront money should be taken unless they need filing fees. I appreciate that it is hard work and it takes money to work a case at times, but in most cases they are way out of the ball park in what they charge up front for what they are willing to deliver. They are raping the client.

    For example, I designed a newspaper and couldn't quite get my barings to take it to its next level, another newspaper in town a few years later stole the name and concept and when I tried to look to suing them I was told by an attorney that I would need $100,000 retainer in order to do so. This is crazy. By way of prepaid legal I had benefits to send one letter for free and was told by the attorney that I had a case, but in the long run I would have to pay a hefty retainer to sue, which I obviously could not afford.  I thereby sit unlawfully represented where I have been violated. This is wrong. Pro BONO? None. Zero return. The attorneys will not honor their oath and do this. We need to encourage attorneys towork for what their oath tells them. In throughout history this was the main way they worked. Although some  fees upfront may be necessary, they have gone way out of line with what they will do. Quite frankly I look at it this way, the more upfront the attorney asks for, the less confident I am in him/her being a good attorney and winning the case. I have been in sales and I know that if I don't produce I don't earn, so I know what it means to put my money where my mouth is.

    Sigh. (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by TChris on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 03:06:05 AM EST
    I'm sorry you feel that way about attorneys.  When you say

    I thought attorneys were supposed to base their case on winning if they can show that their client is innocent and needs representation

    I assume you are talking about civil attorneys.  At least where I practice, a criminal defense attorney cannot ethically make a fee contingent upon winning.

    Attorneys in civil rights or discrimination cases will only agree to represent clients for a contingent fee if they believe they will win.  It is often difficult to win these cases.  If the circumstances are borderline or unclear, a lawyer probably won't want to risk it.  It does nobody any good to pursue a losing case.

    It could be that the lawyers with whom you have met disagree with you about the merits of your case.  That happens frequently in discrimination and civil rights cases.  People who feel strongly that they have been victimized do not always understand how difficult these cases are to prove, or how narrow the laws are that protect against discrimination.

    If a lawyer tells you that your case is risky and that you have a good chance of losing, pursuing it will probably cost you a good bit of money and you will probably need to deposit that money in advance because the lawyer wants to know the fee will be paid.  I am sorry that you equate this financial reality with raping a client.  The reality is, lawyers cannot solve every problem or vindicate every violated right.

    I cannot and will not give you any legal advice, and I have no opinion about the merits of your claim that the name and concept of your newspaper was misappropriated.  I can tell you that business litigation is not a field in which contingent fees are commonly available.

    Finally, while I doubt I can change your view of lawyers, I want to assure you that most lawyers during their careers make a serious commitment to pro bono representation.  This does not mean that they accept as clients all the people who walk through the door insisting that they have a winning case but can't afford to pay for representation.  You probably don't get free carpentry or plumbing repairs either.

    Parent

    Just one question (none / 0) (#5)
    by NYShooter on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 04:57:11 AM EST
    Do you favor the British tort laws, or ours as to who pays legal fees in civil cases?

    I think I understand, somewhat, what the previous writer was expressing. It's no secret that the rich and powerful understand our payment practices vis-a-vis attorney fees. The rich, and the corporations, can literally stomp on people's rights, knowing that most people couldn't possibly afford to pay for representation.


    Parent

    Ours (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 07:46:08 AM EST
    The British system has its roots in the antiquated ideas of trial by ordeal and trial by combat. One of the underlying assumptions of those trials is God protects the innocent.  The modern version is only the truly deserving will win (or only truly deserving losers will lose). If you believe that, I have some land in Florida...

    Even the best lawyers lose meritorious cases and the consequences to poor plaintiffs with meritorious cases could prove disastrous.  The plaintiff has already had one loss, do they risk losing more?

    The contingency fees system allowed in some civil cases has some drawbacks. However, in theory there is little incentive to pursue cases which are not meritorious (ideally you are more likely to lose a non-meritorious case) and the injured plaintiff does not risk yet more losses.


    Parent

    I understand, (none / 0) (#10)
    by NYShooter on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 01:27:01 AM EST
    there is no perfect system, but.

    Other than personal injury cases, I don't know any lawyers who will take a civil case "on contingency."

    A crude example: You hire a plumber to fix a gas leak in your house. The guy's inept, botches the job, and your house blows up.

    Sue'em? Sure.
    In NYS, if the plumber's an average, middle class type, you can expect to pay about 75K and forfeit 4-5 years for the case to be abjudicated.

    If you win, and it's appealed, add another 100K and another 3-4 years.

    If the plumber is of means, it's not even worth pursuing.

    Please don't say I'm exxagerating, I'm not. I've written about my case here several times. A similar case, I'm the plaintiff, 8 years, 200+K, and it's still going on. All for an "open and shut" case. Should I eventually prevail, sometimes next year, I can look forward to the defendant filing bankruptcy.

    As you know the court's responsibility ends with the verdict; tracing and collecting the money is all mine.

    We have a tort problem in this country.

    Parent

    Several issues. (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 08:05:11 AM EST
    You hire a plumber to fix a gas leak in your house. The guy's inept, botches the job, and your house blows up.

    That is probably a tort and possibly breach of contract as well. The real question is whether or not Joe the Plumber has insurance or is independently wealthy.

    If neither insured nor wealthy, the odds of anyone taking the case on a contingency are slim.

    If it were taken as a breach of contract case, the problem would be whether or not loser pays was contracted for in the contract. If yes, then you could get fees and costs if successful. If no, then typically in a contract each side bears their own fees and costs regardless of who wins.

    The other problem you have is the damages. Damages are typically nominal (sometimes called vindication) compensatory (actual out of pocket costs designed to make the plaintiff "whole") and punitive (conduct so egregious that it warrants punishment as well as making the plaintiff whole). Compensatory damages would be the value of the house, plus either lost rent (if a rental) or the cost of rent if it was were you lived, together with the loss of any personal items and, of course, any personal injury to the occupants (those damages would be specific to the injured person). Many jurisdictions have adopted rules (due to Tort Deform) to prevent double recovery, so if you had property insurance and it paid off, the damages might be reduced by that amount. What I have described is a general over view of damages - its not specific to your case.  

    As for the specific facts you describe, I don't have enough info to determine if it is open and shut. I am not licensed in NY.

    It sounds to me like your issues aren't so much with the tort system and whether we should use the British or American rules- in fact, I fail to see how the choice of fee system would help you here - but with the slowness of the wheels of justice.

    Two different things. It sounds as though, notwithstanding costs to the other side, they have made a determination to fight it all the way. Look at the bills you describe. Do you think it has cost the other side substantially less?

    The American system also relies on rational economics. The costs of maintaining or defending the suit should be a reason to find common ground quickly and settle, even if you don't get everything you want or think you deserve (that's why its called a compromise). The British system - loser pays fees and costs has competing incentives. The one I just described, and the one that listens to "this is open and shut" I can get it all back. This is also a good way to understand the limitations of  classical text book economics. It relies upon people being rational and making rational economic decisions and having complete knowledge to make those decisions. That rarely happens outside an economics classroom.

    Again all of this is without specific knowledge of your case which may have other issues. I just want people to see and think about some of the issues I just described.

    I also recommend you dust off a copy of Bleak House  and review what happens in  Jarndyce v. Jarndyce

    Being "made whole" by a lawsuit is rare. All the law can offer an injured party is damages (money). That doesn't bring back loved ones, it doesn't bring back missing limbs. You must also take into account a defendant has a right to defend.

    What tort deformers want is to avoid any consequences of wrongful acts. They want a system designed to make it harder to bring cases and harder to win. They want the British system because they think it will make people think twice before proceeding on even a meritorious case.  I don't see the fairness in that. I believe lawyers for their own protection need to educate their clients on what they realistically can expect and where they need to settle.

    BTW if you  are not familiar with McLibel here's a case under the British system, that an economic rational  plaintiff should have settled or not even pursued. Uncollectable, bad publicity for the suit and the spread the alleged defamation even further. What did the plaintiff actually achieve?

    Parent

    Molly (none / 0) (#12)
    by jem17 on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 02:36:47 PM EST
    Thank you for your feedback. I think that we are in a place where we are not in the mindset of what is the real issue.

    If we are innocent we should be in representation of that. Nothing else. Its a hard fight, but worth it.

    Sincerely


    Parent

    Chinese Democracy.... (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 08:41:18 AM EST
    I can't believe it is finally coming out...what did it take, 15 years?

    If I was Axl I'd almost be embarassed to put it out at this point, at least under that much maligned title.  "Chinese Democracy" has come to mean "Can't Deliver".