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Tuesday Morning Open thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 10:13:35 AM EST
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I will be out of pocket for the rest of the business day. So here is an Open Thread to tide you over until J and TChris arrive.

This is an Open Thread.

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    Tuesday Morning Open thread | 141 comments (141 topical)

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    Waiting for our turn. (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Fabian on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 10:48:21 AM EST
    [cue ominous music]

    Last night the weather went south of us.  Tonight weather.com gives us hours and hours of "light freezing drizzle".  I am preparing bean soup with ham hocks and making a supply run.  Laundry is good.  I can scrounge fire wood if I need to.  My son hated Hurricane Ike(3+ days no power) and keeps asking if we are getting another hurricane when it gets windy out.

    See you whenever!

    Whew. (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 10:51:02 AM EST
    P.S.  You may take some comfort in learning even Southern California was under water yesterday.  

    Parent
    News that only McClatchy will print (none / 0) (#75)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:07:19 PM EST
    Many of you may recall that McClatchy was the only high profile US newspaper that had the integrity to investigate and refute Bush's claims of Iraq WMD well before the invasion.

    They've also printed some recent news pertinent to the reporter shoe-throwing incident that I haven't read elsewhere. This is from a 12/14/08 McClatchy story, Iraqi [reporter] who threw shoes covered U.S. bombing of Shiite area:

    Thousands...rallied in a central Baghdad square three weeks ago, where they beat an effigy of Bush with their shoes before they burned it. They're planning to rally Monday to protest Bush's visit.

    The Iraqi reporter's gesture of outrage is clearly not an isolated incident as Bush would have us believe. The foregoing report vividly evokes the memory of Iraqis who beat Saddam's statue with their shoes five years ago: the obvious conclusion is that Bush is now equated with Saddam. Still, with the obvious exception of McClatchy, the corporate press intends to cover Bush's sorry ass till the bitter end.

    Parent
    Agree (5.00 / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:17:15 PM EST
    That McClatchy is a great source, but you are mistaken that other sources are not reporting this as an isolated incident. From Jeralyn's link AFP:

    Soles of shoes are considered the ultimate insult in Arab culture. After Saddam Hussein's statue was toppled in Baghdad in April 2003, many onlookers beat the statue's face with their soles.

    and from Jeralyn's other link NYT:

    Hitting someone with a shoe is considered the supreme insult in Iraq. It means that the target is even lower than the shoe, which is always on the ground and dirty. Crowds hurled their shoes at the giant statue of Mr. Hussein that stood in Baghdad's Firdos Square before helping American marines pull it down on April 9, 2003, the day the capital fell. More recently in the same square, a far bigger crowd composed of Iraqis who had opposed the security agreement flung their shoes at an effigy of Mr. Bush before burning it.



    Parent
    Correction: AP, others covered Bush effigy story (none / 0) (#111)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 04:06:25 PM EST
    After some additional research and reading, I discovered a lot of coverage, including the following:

    *11/21/08, the AP reported: Iraqis burn Bush effigy at square where Saddam statue was toppled in 2003:

    thousands...filled Firdous Square to protest a proposed U.S.-Iraqi security pact...The Bush effigy was placed on the same pedestal where U.S. marines toppled [Saddam's] statue...demonstrators pelted the [Bush] effigy with plastic water bottles and sandals... protesters jumped on it before setting it ablaze.

    *11/21/08, slightly different AP story reported size of crowd as 20,000.

    *11/21/08, slightly different AP story in USA Today, complete with picture.

    *11/21/08, slightly different AP story in the International Herald Tribune.

    *11/21/08, slightly different AP story, on HuffPo.

    *11/22/08, the LA Times ran their own story, quite critical of the protesters.

    *11/22/08, CNN story, with video.

    *A bunch of other US papers carried the story, mostly via the AP, or so it appears. In TV news, it was reported by MSNBC, ABC, and CBS among others.


    Parent

    For nycstray (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Fabian on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 10:55:54 AM EST
    I present biggie z the livestock guardian dog who lives in NYC.  Kuvasz variety.

    I would ordinarily be very skeptical about anyone who wanted an LGD in a very urban setting.  But this couple seems to be up to the challenge of making this work for everybody.  

    That made me smile... :-) (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by vml68 on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:02:51 AM EST
    Thanks!

    Parent
    To be fair to livestock guardian dogs (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:54:59 AM EST
    They have some wonderful reps in the showring that are friendly toward almost everyone, and downright loveable to ya if you pass the smell test.

    Parent
    LGDs are great. (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Fabian on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:51:52 PM EST
    They may even want to meet everyone, but they could react to any behavior they see as unfriendly or threatening.  Getting right in a dog's face without waiting for introductions can be seen as aggressive.

    Fortunately, my dog had a vaguely wolfish appearance which tended to make people cautious.  

    Parent

    This is my baby boy Othello (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 06:46:37 PM EST
    before he was fully mature.  He's a bit bigger now and he was out of coat here so he's fuzzier too usually.  He's about as vicious as a newborn colt but all he has to do is look at most people who don't know him and he's threatening :)  The meter reader says he is the dog he's the most afraid of at this house ?  Ya got me, Othello just wants to hold his lunch for him and hopes he'll forget who he left it with.  http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/Militarytracy/othellositeFP.jpg

    Parent
    You'd think a "white" dog (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Fabian on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 04:18:42 AM EST
    would seem less threatening than a dark colored one.  (His true color was buttermilk, but everybody called him white.)

    It might have been the full double coat that added twenty pounds to his apparent weight.  Or his height, or the pronounced mane/ruff, or his height (LGDs are leggy and they can run).  Or maybe it was LGD habit of remaining always alert and focused.  (People sometimes interpreted this as "I wonder what you taste like.".)

    Parent

    OMG (none / 0) (#128)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 06:54:43 PM EST
    what kind of wolf is that? :-)

    Parent
    He isn't a Republican one :) (none / 0) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 07:00:48 PM EST


    Parent
    Hah :-) (none / 0) (#130)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 07:04:58 PM EST
    I'd introduce him to my Democratic cat, but I'm afraid he'd think she was a snack.

    Parent
    He only watches cats (none / 0) (#141)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 07:47:15 AM EST
    I have two girls who will give chase in fun, but this dog just watches stuff.  I guess he watches the meter guy too much :)

    Parent
    MT, do you have a third person/dog (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:45:27 PM EST
    blog going?

    Parent
    I don't, my Aunt is on me (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 01:23:43 PM EST
    about getting something going.  My 4H group starts their first dog obedience classes the second Thursday of January, after the holidays.  This may be a really good 4H club project.  I think you have spawned something Oculus.

    Parent
    MT, you should. (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 01:29:37 PM EST
    I have a Dane so I poke around The Great Dane Room periodically.

    Parent
    Speaking of Dane's (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 01:42:04 PM EST
    We were noticing at a recent Albany show how dogs look like their owners and the people who become handlers of certain breeds.  In real life it is uncanny but at a dogshow it is often freakish.  About 8 Danes and their handlers were standing outside a ring waiting for their class to be called.  Not all the handlers were tall but they were all svelte, all had athletic solid muscle definition, all clothing pressed with creases, all hairstyles sleek and well defined.  Then this older very very thin woman who had bleached her hair platinum and gathered it into a bun on top of her head paraded in front them with a groomed standard poodle in tow and we just about fell on the ground laughing.

    Parent
    Yes Freakish, But More Freakish... (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 01:48:50 PM EST
    I have a project in mind that I will never do, but enjoy thinking about it. Take a flat faced dog with lots of extra skin, a shar pei for example, and hire a top plastic surgeon. Then offer a service where you can match the face of the owner and the dog exactly.

    A little botox, hair removal, possibly skin bleaching and viola a dog that really looks like the owner.

    I think the Alice in Wonderland singing flowers is where I got the inspiration.

    Parent

    I have my own freakish side :) (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:17:56 PM EST
    I love an intelligent dog.  My fave dogs are always on the top of the AKC intelligence list.  I didn't become a purveyor of Border Collies because the AKC didn't recognize the breed in my younger years.  I didn't become a purveyor of Standard Poodles because of the grooming commitment, I love the breed though and the quality of friendship they provide.  If I suck up the heavenly heavy grooming commitment and make some standard poodle commitments will I get thinner?

    Parent
    lol (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:26:37 PM EST
    Maybe, or you can add some botox to the poodle..

    A (late) friend of mine has a brother and sisterinlaw in Kentucky (I believe) who trains border collies and shows them. His brother told me that they are super smart and training them means letting them do their thing and not getting in the way.

    He has a star dog that has won many awards. The dog was so smart that once he started using the dogwhistle, the dog knew the different whistles and what they meant instantly.

    Really interesting stuff on what they are able to do.

    Parent

    Some border collies are off the charts (none / 0) (#86)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:47:05 PM EST
    Know someone who has one down here.  When they get home in the heat of the day and the air is off the dog knows how to jump up and hit the thermostat buttons with its nose to start it running.  Figured it out itself, probably watched someone do it.

    Parent
    My Dal has smoothie making down (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:21:48 PM EST
    I do the work though :) She started guarding the fridge (from the cats) and it took me a couple of days to figure it out. Apparently, I'm very predictable. I move the blender to the middle of the counter, get a knife and cutting board and then go to the fridge for ingredients. Once she has kept the fridge safe for my arrival, she moves over to the blender to make sure it stays safe (from the cats) until I arrive to make the smoothies. Me not noticing, rewarded the behavior by giving her a smoothie. {sigh} Luckily I had worked on place training with her, so I was able to train her to stay in a spot in the kitchen and understand that the cats had no interest in the smoothie routine.

    I'd be in big trouble if I lived with BCs. Dals are about as far as I want to go on the smarts scale  :)

    Parent

    My daughter's BC (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Amiss on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:35:31 PM EST
    had a favorite toy, a tennis ball, she had to take her out to play ball several hours a day. Lil Lizzie came down with the ball wrong and totally destroyed her ACL and just had to have surgery. She is a super smart and super hyper dog, and the vet wants them to keep her off that leg for the next month, but didnt put a cast on it. They are having a real time with that, any suggestions>

    Parent
    This is a really tough injury for a BC (none / 0) (#142)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 08:08:55 AM EST
    And outside of crating and hiding all tennis balls, which I'm sure are things your daughter is already doing, they are in the thick of challenge during this healing.  I do have one bright spot.  Some new drug options that have been used on race horses for some time are now being tested for human use and being used in dogs.  I have a friend with an extremely active Shepherd who sustained an injury that would probably have put the dog down.  They have been using one of the new to dogs but old to race horses tendon and cartilage building drugs with excellent results.  Not many vets are aware of the new options though.  She had a tough time finding one in her area aware and able.  I will talk to her today, needed to talk to her about something else as well, and I will post back the drug name for you so that your daughter can add that her arsenal of possibilities as they manage this together.  Some BC's become so close to their owners it is like losing a child or an arm or leg when they lose one.  Didn't know if your daughter was familiar with Flyball so here's a link to a Crufts video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4CSGtllyuQ.  It is a sport that is completely going off the charts crazy right now.  The competition is extreme and the Border Collies rule Flyball.  The Flyball teams train like mad.

    Parent
    That is funny. (none / 0) (#80)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:20:51 PM EST
    My family and I are pretty fitness-oriented - our Dane runs 15-20 miles/week with us and is ripped.

    I'll have to start studying other dog owners...

    Parent

    My dog anbd I are both slender (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:08:33 PM EST
    but I come minus spots and patches  ;)

    Parent
    See, that is so freaky (none / 0) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:27:18 PM EST
    I wondered if you were a fitness freak.....who blogs.....not much for cheetos huh?  On second thought, when running that much I suppose you can eat whatever you want when you want :)

    Parent
    Well, I got into running (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:37:55 PM EST
    because my ancestors have a history of dropping dead from massive heart attacks at very young ages. I run now because I love it.

    I eat fairly well, but not anything I want. I don't diet per se, I try to eat like an athlete.

    Thanksgiving through Christmas is still a perennially dangerous time for me...

    Parent

    Admit it brother.... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:03:34 PM EST
    you like running because it gets you high:)

    If my team holds the court for 3-4 games in a row on basketball night...I know I get a hardcore runners buzz...ah, euphoric exhaustion:)

    Parent

    Oh I freely admit it. (none / 0) (#99)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:35:06 PM EST


    Parent
    Cool:) (none / 0) (#119)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 05:31:23 PM EST
    Just a public service announcement in favor of euphoria...it gets a bad rap sometimes:)

    Parent
    Running used to get me high too (none / 0) (#125)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 06:37:09 PM EST
    and it was a good high.  Then we moved here and now I have asthma due to a very common mold that is everywhere in the South, lack of oxygen is not the same high.  I don't know how to explain it but it just isn't as good :)

    Parent
    That is great! (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:07:21 PM EST
    LOVE the rules {grin}

    Dot would like to add:

    Locker room butt slaps are off limits. On top of being rude, they startle me and your hand could end up in my mouth. But that is not the worst that would happen. You would have to deal with my Mommie. And it wouldn't be pretty. Trust me on that one. Really. Trust me, it's UGLY.

    And parents, you really shouldn't let your kids run all the way across the park and out of your range/sight to squeal at spotted dogs. Keeping an eye on your kids is a good thing.

    ****

    Biggies is cute. Sounds like he was here since puppyhood, which is prob better than trying to intro an older one to the city. It sure isn't easy having a dog that attracts attention around here. I don't let many people pet mine. Too many have grabbed her face and tried to kiss her . . . adults, not children.

    Parent

    Matt Browner Hamlin (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:18:55 AM EST
    Objects to CK being appointed to the Senate in particular and Senate appointments in general.

    Personally, I'm ambivalent about CK being appointed, but I'm bothered about what's bothering MBH and others. Why this sudden concern about appointments, when nobody seemed to be concerned about how grossly unfair the Senate is in general.

    No, I don't mean the filibuster. I mean the fact that states are represented instead of people. IMO, very little would be better for America than to abolish the Senate, at least as it exists today. And I say that as someone who is fascinated by the Senate's history and traditions.

    Well, I don't see (none / 0) (#30)
    by dk on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:55:24 AM EST
    that the concerns are mutually exclusive.  One can be concerned by the gubernatorial appointment tradition and also be concerned about the basic structure of the Senate.

    Parent
    They're not, (none / 0) (#34)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:59:27 AM EST
    but no one ever seems to make a peep about the unfair representation anymore.

    Parent
    Well, I'm not sure (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by dk on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:04:39 PM EST
    if that's true.  I compare it to the anti-monarchy movement in the UK.  There's a solid percentage of Brits who want to abolish the monarchy, but the establishment view is so strong that no one takes them seriously despite their rather large numbers.

    Come to think of it, another parallel might be advocacy of single payer health care in the US.  Many Americans support it, but for all sorts of reasons it's never taken seriously in "polite society."

    Parent

    I think if the monarchy (none / 0) (#45)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:10:04 PM EST
    ever vetoed a popular bill, it would be swiftly eliminated. In Britain, potential obstruction by the upper chamber was dealt with by the Parliament Act.

    Parent
    Well, my point wasn't (none / 0) (#76)
    by dk on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:14:17 PM EST
    to compare the monarchy and the senate.  My point was to compare situations when a large percentage of a populace holds a reasonable opinion about something, yet that opinion is considered a non-starter in "polite society."  

    Parent
    I think most people have no idea (none / 0) (#81)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:25:48 PM EST
    how unfair the Senate is.

    Parent
    Spoken like (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by dk on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:32:36 PM EST
    a citizen of a more populated state.  ;)

    Parent
    Yup ... (none / 0) (#94)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:13:19 PM EST
    I lived in a populous state now, but I grew up in a less populated one.

    The Senate is yet another way our system protects minority interests.

    Our system is not, nor was it ever intended, to be a straight Democracy.

    Parent

    Re "out of pocket": (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:26:56 AM EST
    Made me look--again.

    link

    Thanks for that ... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:32:59 AM EST
    I was a little puzzled by that usage as well.

    "Out of pocket" also means "unavailable."  You learn something new every day.

    Parent

    Only in netlingo, apparently. (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:36:52 AM EST


    Parent
    It's journo lingo, actually (none / 0) (#74)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 01:53:58 PM EST
    possibly picked up from the military in WWII.  In any case, it way, way, way pre-dates the Net.


    Parent
    Seems like it should be... (none / 0) (#22)
    by desertswine on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:41:22 AM EST
    out of the pouch, you know like a marsupial. It would seem to make a little more sense. O well.

    Parent
    Ha. I was just spell-checking my comment (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:43:19 AM EST
    on the exact same subject and you posted your comment first...

    Anyway, this is the first definition my browser found:

    1.  out of pocket  259 up, 171 down
    to be out of control; way off base. usually deserving of a good slapping or a full-blown a$$- kicking.  


    Parent
    three cheers for smoking! (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:59:53 AM EST
    I do love a smoky bar.  I get the bans...but I wish bars would provide a place for smokers to smoke in their establishment.  In NY you run into nice porches and patios...but what if it rains?

    In the bay area, I know of (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by dk on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:07:32 PM EST
    several bars that have smaller smoking areas that open up to the main room where they have somehow managed to rig the ventilation system to keep the smoke out of the main room/bar area.  Nifty trick, if you ask me, but I think it's a good solution.

    Parent
    My favorites are the glass fishbowls (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:44:34 PM EST
    in some airports.

    Parent
    I am so relieved to learn.... (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 10:54:46 AM EST
    that we have so few problems in Nassau County NY that the county legislature is reduced to worrying about candy cigarettes, lunch specials, and having police inform schools of their students drug arrests involving heroin.  Link

    Ya can't make this stuff up...candy freakin' cigarettes?  If I was a county legislator, I'd be ashamed to release that agenda.  Ashamed.

    Candy cig and lunch special laws are an utter joke.  Laughable.  And while the rise in heroin use is real, I can't say I'm down with a batphone link between the precint and the school...kids are reluctant enough to go to school officials for help with a drug problem, forget it if they think the school officials are in cahoots with the precint.

    I remember those candy cigs!! (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by indy in sc on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:03:04 AM EST
    I loved them--both the bubble gum and the candy sticks!  I never smoked--perhaps I should run up to Nassau and testify that candy cigarettes are not the "gateway" candy to a life on drugs.

    Parent
    Keeping this seasonal ... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:06:36 AM EST
    from Dylan Thomas' "A Child's Christmas in Wales":

    And a packet of cigarettes: you put one in your mouth and you stood at the corner of the street and you waited for hours, in vain, for an old lady to scold you for smoking a cigarette, and then with a smirk you ate it.


    Parent
    I was addicted to sugar... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by CST on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:08:34 AM EST
    But yea, I agree, I used to love those things and never wanted to smoke the real stuff.  By the time you feel "pressure" to smoke cigs you're not really hooked on the candy stuff anymore.

    Parent
    Mainly (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by CST on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:08:59 AM EST
    Cuz they lost all flavor in about 2.3 seconds.

    Parent
    Sh*t... (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:32:51 AM EST
    the only pressure I feel nowadays is not to smoke.  

    Back in the not so distant day it was the "cool kids" who smoked, not so sure if that is the case anymore.

    Let that be a lesson to us...prohibition does not reduce use and abuse, education does.  Tobacco smoking is on the decline because of the massive education campaigns...and nobody had to be put in a cage.  Education works, and without creating a whole slew of new problems like prohibition does.

    Parent

    When I was in H.S. (none / 0) (#26)
    by CST on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:47:47 AM EST
    Which wasn't THAT long ago, all my friends ended up smoking. I think it starts as a smoking while drinking booze habit.  And ends up as a smoking while drinking booze, water, coffee, whatever, habit.

    Now that they are all out of college there is pressure not to smoke, and a lot have quit.  But in the 10th grade, it was still cool...

    My mother smokes and I always hated it, so that was the one thing that kept me off butts.  Kinda ironic that the one deterrent was seeing my parents do it... makes it a lot less cool :)

    Parent

    I think we're around the same age... (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:58:30 AM EST
    it was still "cool" in my day too...but I think there's been a big shift in the last ten years.  You just don't see teenagers hanging out smoking like you used too...and the numbers appear to back it up.

    Parent
    But it was such a good ice breaker (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 01:22:41 PM EST
    I am not a smoker but I could be if there was someone interesting I had an eye on back in those college days. Do you have a match always started up a conversation. It also gave you something to do with your other hand when one hand was on the 'cocktail' glass or a can of beer. And that was all smoking was good for in those days. How many can remember what their clothes smelled like the day after spending a few hours in a bar or night club? Cough cough cough...

    Parent
    same (none / 0) (#37)
    by Nasarius on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:01:34 PM EST
    I credit my parents for my having never touched a cigarette. It never had the slightest attraction. They weren't heavy smokers, but when they did smoke, it completely disgusted me as a kid.

    These days, the smell of smoke outdoors will still sometimes conjure feelings of nostalgia. And I don't really mind people smoking around me, even indoors with a window open. The smell of stale smoke, though...still very yuck.

    Parent

    mmmmm... (none / 0) (#7)
    by Salo on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:06:13 AM EST
    ...sugar ciggies.

    Parent
    Segue: nostalgia. (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:16:46 AM EST
    Last night at tutoring we were playing "Sorry."  I sd., when I was your age we didn't have a TV or video games and we played lots of board games such as "Sorry."  Boys:  NO TV??????

    P.S.  Everyone else, of course, did have a TV.

    Parent

    Fifteen Years Ago (none / 0) (#106)
    by daring grace on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:54:30 PM EST
    My teenage niece met some friends of mine who didn't own a tv. She was ASTOUNDED. She, after all, had her own tv in her room.

    She asked: "So do you even have a phone?" as if it were a denunciation of all technologies...

    Parent

    I haven't seen (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by eric on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:27:14 AM EST
    candy cigarettes in a long time.  I think a lot of places just don't sell them anymore out of fear of the soccer-mom agenda.

    Anyway, I would like to buy some.  I would love to sit in a bar with one of those in my mouth and remember the old days, when I could have a real one with my beer.

    Parent

    Printemps, Paris: (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:22:37 AM EST
    stale TNT found in department store w/o detonator.

    Store employee says:  

    "We're used to it. It happens," she said. "There are often suspicious packages _ though maybe not this type of evacuation."

    Sarkozy says:  if I pull out French forces from Afghanistan, the terrorists win.  

    Arne Duncan presser... (none / 0) (#16)
    by jedimom on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:31:50 AM EST
    PEBO just ahd the presser announcing Arne Duncan as Sec Ed

    Did a quick write up here:
    http://tinyurl.com/6g4nv7

    He seems very sincere, but one idea he purportedly supports about paying kids 100-for an A is just awful IMO.

    during q/a PEBO avoided that and spoke to merit pay for teachers instead....
    lots of comments on education being the Civil Rights of our time..

    one testy back n forth with John a reporter on Rahm, Blago, PEBOS stmt he would stay hands off about his replacement during the campaign...PEBO repeatedly told him he will not answer that right now...

    They talked a lot about improving our ed system. (none / 0) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:38:17 PM EST
    If everyone in America has a PhD, who's going to build our cars?

    Not a snark, are we educating ourselves out of our national manufacturing base?

    Parent

    green (none / 0) (#87)
    by jedimom on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 02:52:29 PM EST
    I think that is why PEBO is pushing the Green transition first, it creates jobs
    GE wind turbine parts production if done here could be big, all the parts, the steel for the parts, the mining for the ore for the parts..
    the labor, the transport of the parts

    then we can export that technology..

    that entire transitioning generation could be resourced into those jobs, then the next given the benefit of PEBOs educational plans to make college affordable for those who need to go to the service sector..

    but the service sector particularly financial services is shrinking like a popped bubble in this market, so a good million MBAs are pounding the pavements too..

    I think it is a win/win for USA and PEBO,
    USA as a lean green self sufficient machine, it would be fabulous....

    Parent

    The City of Charleston SC (none / 0) (#21)
    by CoralGables on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:38:05 AM EST
    was awakened by a small earthquake this morning. Although not San Francisco, it does lie on a fault line which makes Charleston susceptible to a major earthquake like the one it suffered in 1886.

    Personally, I wouldn't go to bars (none / 0) (#23)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:42:29 AM EST
    if they weren't (FINALLY) smoke free.

    And even leaving my own personal preferences aside, I don't think it's fair to put the employees at risk by your second hand smoke. No one should feel forced to take an inherently dangerous job.

    What I'd do.... (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:51:55 AM EST
    I'd leave it up to the bar owner if they want to allow smoking.  That way there would be smoking and non-smoking establishments. Smoking and non-smoking bartenders would have the choice where to apply to work.  Smoking and non-smoking patrons would have the choice where to party.  Everybody wins except the zealots...be they pro, anti, or ambivalent about smoking.

    Parent
    Not good enough (none / 0) (#32)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 11:58:20 AM EST
    because it doesn't protect the employees. No employee should ever be put in the position to assume that kind of risk.

    I might feel differently about a one man operation or maybe a partnership, but I'm not sure that's possible for a bar.

    Parent

    As much as I love that you can't smoke in bars (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:01:57 PM EST
    restaurants, etc., in LA anymore, as a former waiter/bartender, I/we all worked there because we chose to.

    Parent
    Your experience is not everyone's experience (none / 0) (#41)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:05:12 PM EST
    I could easily imagine a situation where your choice is between taking a job at a bar and being thrown out of your home because you can't make rent/the payments.

    My position is that nobody should ever be in the position to have to make that choice.

    Parent

    C'mon, thrown out of their home? (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:20:11 PM EST
    Not nearly emotional enough.

    How about "can't make your chemo treatment payments for the lung cancer you got working in the only job in the entire country you could possibly do which is waiting tables in the restaurant where they allow smoking."

    Being "forced" to work where there's smoking is not the same as "choosing" to work there.

    I mean, c'mon, it's not like your working as a machine operator or metal fabricator. You know, occupations with real risk...

    Parent

    Construction workers.... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:03:13 PM EST
    breath in far worse sh*t on jobsites.

    Toll collectors breath in far worse sh*t.

    It's called an occupational hazard.

    Until the gasoline engine is banned because of the health risks, I find it difficult to take anti-smoking zealots seriously.  

    Parent

    All moot anyway.... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:09:28 PM EST
    Once Ireland's pubs went smoke free...I knew this battle was lost forever.

    Smokers will live. Much like other laws that do not jive with human nature, we'll find a way around them.  I know a couple joints that bring out the ashtrays after midnight.

    Parent

    It won't be moot (none / 0) (#48)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:12:37 PM EST
    until every single public establishment is entirely smoke free.

    Human nature is not my problem. The problem is the danger posed to others.

    Parent

    Have no fear... (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:22:11 PM EST
    we're well on our way to that, though New Jersey quickly repealed their near total-ban in Atlantic City Casinos...a small smokers victory in a sea of defeats.

    Many gamblers like to smoke, and when they can't smoke at the tables they gamble less...go figure!

    Sh*t, with the taxes NY smokers pay they should set up a smokers lounge in Gracie Mansion for us, with complementary champagne and caviar.

    Parent

    Will you settle for a tent? (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:43:17 PM EST
    That's how the CA Legislature got around the ban on smoking cigars w/i or w/i 20 feet of a state building.

    Parent
    Do you know what it's like (none / 0) (#43)
    by andgarden on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:07:49 PM EST
    for a non-smoker to stand in a smoke filled room for just a few minutes?

    The fact that other situations are also dangerous does not mean that we shouldn't eliminate this particular danger in public places, especially when it is so easy to do so. Nobody should feel forced to assume an unnecessary occupational hazard as a condition of employment.

    Parent

    Not since I was a kid.... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:38:53 PM EST
    I used to love the smell of OTB with 50 cigars going at once...though it was like walking through a minefield trying to avoid getting burned when your only waist high:)

    As an adult, I'd imagine it's not to far off to how I feel at the perfume counter at Macys...talk about toxic!  Where is the concern for the lungs of perfume counter workers?  Breathing that sh*t day in day out can't be good.

    Parent

    There are those, (none / 0) (#60)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:47:39 PM EST
    like the CATO Inst., that say that the "second hand smoke is dangerous" claim is based on junk science.

    That said, the counter-argument to that is "sure, it may be junk science (fake) but it is accurate."

    Parent

    All I know (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:00:43 PM EST
    is how I feel when I've been around smokers.

    My throat hurts, my sinuses swell, I cough.  Even if it doesn't do permanent damage, it makes non-smokers feel like crap, so my feeling that:

    "You're allowed to do anything as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else"

    applies here.  Smoking hurts innocent bystanders (temporarily or possibly permanently).

    Parent

    Then you gotta ban perfume too... (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:14:31 PM EST
    When worn too heavily it makes me cough and my throat hurt and my eyes tear.  And those aerosol air fresheners...somebody went nuts with that sh*t one day in the office and I vomited...literally vomited.  No joke.

    The standard has to be direct and significant harm...a little unpleasantness is not a sufficient reason to ban something.  

    Parent

    Sure (none / 0) (#104)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 03:49:55 PM EST
    I agree that some perfumes are particularly vile, as well as soaps and deodorants. In fact some perfumes give me an instant headache, no hugs and kisses from me in that situation. But with cigarette smoke, if I am around it, I wind up having to smell it in my hair and clothes and body until I can change my clothes and take and bathe.

    You probably do not notice that aspect if you are a smoker.  

    Parent

    I never bought into it... (4.50 / 2) (#61)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 12:55:26 PM EST
    myself.  Of course, tobacco smoke ain't health food, but worse than car exhaust or smokestacks or any number of air pollutants?  C'mon.

    How can you prove someone got cancer from second hand tobacco and not car exhaust or indutrial air pollution?

    Parent

    Cato is not exactly... (none / 0) (#64)
    by desertswine on Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 01:07:15 PM EST
    a non-partisan source in this case.

    The Cato Institute appears on several Philip Morris lists of "national allies," including a 1999 "Federal Government Affairs Tobacco Allies Notebook," and in a less-specific list of "National Allies" dated 2000. [39][40]

    R.J. Reynolds (RJR) in a September 2000 document also names Cato Institute as an organization the company could rely upon to help the tobacco industry "shift the debate and framework under which cigarette-related issues are evaluated in the future." In the document, titled "Reframing the Debate Communications Plan," RJR states, "Work with CATO Institute ... to empanel a group to debate legality and future management of cigarette industry. Open forum to media (pitch C- SPAN coverage); issue press release and transcript of remarks to media not in attendance." A subsequent part of the plan says RJR could help sustain public interest in their points of view by encouraging Cato Institute to send [pro-tobacco