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Monday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:28:16 AM EST
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I am traveling this evening so I won't be posting today. As you can see, TChris is around and Jeralyn as well I think. In the meantime, here are some excellent posts from our diarists:

Scribe on Bush's unpardon:

Edger reports on the petition for a special prosecutor:

lilburro offers two diaries on the torture issue - Stephen Kappes on the rendition of Abu Omar and The broader CIA Critique.

This is an Open Thread.

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    Monday Morning Open Thread | 40 comments (40 topical)

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    This is how the conflict will end. (1.00 / 3) (#2)
    by uncledad on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:59:20 AM EST
    I predict that the Israeli -Arab conflict will end soon. It won't end by treaty or peaceful agreement, that time has passed, both sides have refused to compromise; the end will not be pretty. This is how I think it will happen.

    Once the US economy has declined further, and our dept has swollen to unserviceable levels the Chinese and Japan will call in the US dept. This will put our government into a bankruptcy of sorts. We will be unable to provide any aid to any foreign nations, by order of agreement with our debtors. After a year or so of no aid from the US, no spare parts, no bombs, no planes, no tanks the mighty Israeli military machine will start to break down. The surrounding Arab countries will sense Israel's weakness; they will invade and take back the land that was stolen from them. Unfortunately many innocent Israeli citizens will be killed. This is what happens when you steal someone's land and occupy a people for 3 generations, their will be no pity for the citizens of Israel.

    No, the conflict will end (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by scribe on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:04:10 AM EST
    this way:

    the Israelis will break their teeth (again), this time on Gaza.

    Then they will go home.

    And, in the space of two years, they will find a new pretext to start a new war, and do it again.

    Parent

    Unquestioning support in the US will slip (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 12:15:14 AM EST
    and help force an end to the conflict. The rules for discussing Israel in the US are already changing. Via Greenwald -

    The Third Rail of "Israel" Cools in the Blogosphere:

    Opinions will differ as to why this is happening, and Obama's November victory certainly sets the stage -- people really are eager for change. But I would attribute this turn of events to three things:

    1. J-Street: Until the emergence of this remarkable group, hawkish right-wing idealogues had successfully managed to equate support for Israel with support for an aggressive, bellicose foreign policy...

    2. Joe Klein: The importance of what Joe Klein did in the face of intimidation tactics from the extreme right cannot be overstated...

    3. Leadership: What Klein did to Commentary Magazine and the ADL, Glenn Greenwald has done to Marty Peretz and the neocon propaganda organ he runs at The New Republic. Likewise Ezra Klein, Matt Yglesias, Spencer Ackerman, Paul Rosenberg, Siun, Ian Welsh and Stirling Newberry have done a tremendous job of stepping outside the "usual suspect" sources and taking advantage of a new freedom to explore the subject of Israel from a multiplicity of viewpoints...

    Gaza slaughter will help end the Israel lobby

    ...Greenwald goes on to the Real Enemy here: the "suffocating" orthodoxy of our politicians on Israel/Palestine and the "total abdication" of political responsibility. Honey, it's breaking up. Iraq and its lesson that terrorism arises from political disfranchisement is going to be applied to I/P under Obama. The Israel lobby is starting to fracture. "J Street"'s brave statement is huge. Just watch, you will see some major delamination in the days to come specifically on the suffocating orthodoxy issue. Jeffrey Goldberg will come over to our side. Or Tom Friedman. It's gonna happen... If Israel expects to do Lebanon II, it is going to find that it won't get the political cover it did 2 years ago.


    Parent
    Greenwald equates MSM coverage: Iraq & Israel (none / 0) (#38)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 01:17:07 AM EST
    I said something about this earlier today and was not warmly received, to say the least. So, I'll leave it to Greenwald who says it so much better:
    There are good reasons why the media's reverent 2003 treatment of Bush matches its 2008 deference to Israeli claims.  In 2003, claims about Iraq from the Bush administration  -- just like claims from Israel now -- were not aggressively challenged or disputed in good company; their pronouncements were mandated orthodoxy, pieties of the highest order.  

    And the one thing our media stars are good at doing -- what, above all else, they're programmed to do -- is to amplify and pay homage to prevailing establishment pieties.  To do otherwise, as David Gregory revealingly explained, "is not their role."



    Parent
    I really (none / 0) (#6)
    by uncledad on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:10:41 AM EST
    believe given our economic troubles we are not going to be able to provide aid much longer, without our aid Israel is toast, who else would help them? They have been ignoring UN resolutions for 40+ years, they will be all alone in a neighborhood of enemies. Its not going to be pretty.

    Parent
    Euphoria for you (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:20:10 AM EST
    because you hate Evil Israel.


    Parent
    I don't hate them (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by scribe on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:33:42 AM EST
    I just disapprove of their conduct.

    Parent
    You can be sure uncledad does (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:35:12 AM EST


    Parent
    Well, please use "reply" (none / 0) (#16)
    by scribe on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:37:26 AM EST
    to the appropriate commenter, then, so we all know whom you are lining up against.

    Parent
    I did (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:38:55 AM EST
    Check again.

    Parent
    Tip (none / 0) (#19)
    by squeaky on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:01:21 PM EST
    If you push the 'Parent' button you can easily check if a commenter responded to you.

    Parent
    You are not (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by CST on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:36:55 AM EST
    Uncledad calling for the destruction of Israel.

    It is possible to disapprove of their actions without saying you want them to wiped off the map with no "pity for the Israelis".

    I disapprove of a lot of their actions.  I don't think the answer is to kill them all.

    Parent

    Wrong (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by uncledad on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:35:59 AM EST
    I don't hate Israel; I just think it is an illegitimate state. If Israel was willing to compromise and treat their Arab neighbors like human beings this would have been resolved long ago. How can you support a state that will not allow citizenship based on religious belief? What if the USA said no more immigrants unless your a Christian? Would you think that was OK. I have family on both sides, cousins who live in the west bank, and in-laws who live in Israel, so I don't hate either side, I just try not to let our media propaganda control my beliefs, I suggest you try it sometime. If you can't admit to yourself that our media is completely one-sided on this subject than there is no point in continuing this conversation.

    Parent
    I have no intention of having any kind (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:40:00 AM EST
    of "discussion" with a person who calls for the destruction of Israel.

    Parent
    You are calling (1.00 / 2) (#20)
    by uncledad on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:03:18 PM EST
    for the destruction of Gaza are you not. You are a hypocrite, that is all I can say.

    Parent
    and you are now banned uncle dad (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:33:14 PM EST
    for name calling on top of profanity. And chattering.

    Parent
    He has in no place called (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:33:21 PM EST
    for the destruction of anything.  Unlike me, he hasn't even called for the destruction of Warren's invocation.  He's not the destruction sort.  He isn't even for destroying bad CEO's if it means he takes one regular joe down with it.  He's mostly about preservation of living things.  He's very predictable that way.

    Parent
    MT who are you talking about here? (none / 0) (#37)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Dec 30, 2008 at 01:01:25 AM EST


    Parent
    andgarden (none / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 06:11:07 PM EST
    He just never has been about anything destructive or murderous.  Seems terrible to me that someone tried to label him as thus, but this is the tubes.

    Parent
    Holy (none / 0) (#23)
    by Wile ECoyote on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:41:29 PM EST
    Israeli Arabs, batman.  You need to check before you type.  The even have members in the Kenneset.

    Parent
    Thank-you Uncledad (none / 0) (#31)
    by CDN Ctzn on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 04:44:29 PM EST
    for further clarifying your position. It sounds like you at least have some context for your opinions because of family connections on BOTH SIDES.

    I agree that the media doesn't give a balanced view of what is occurring in Israel. And I would further your assertion that being opposed to Israel's actions doesn't mean one is anti-Israel. We hear that same line of parroted rhetoric in regards to actions taken by our government.

    I always believed that part of being a friend was telling that friend when you think their heading down the wrong path. If you don't;

    1. your not much of a friend, and
    2. your only enabling the problem.
    Blind disregard for the illegal actions of the Israeli government is, in my opinion, only enabling them.

    To sum it up, it would seem that if one wanted to hate Israel, an effective way to accomplish that would be to remain silent and allow them to reap what they are sowing. I, for one, won't do that!

    Parent

    Obviously not enough Americans (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:52:33 PM EST
    went to see You Don't Mess with the Zohan.  I didn't go thinking I would learn anything much.  I had to go because Joshua refuses to miss an Adam Sandler movie.  I really didn't even know what it was about but I think it protrays the usefulness of Americans promoting hate in the Israeli/Palestinian quite well.  It's a comedy that the Ugly American can a learn a lot watching if they care to.

    Parent
    Is that a measured recommendation? (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:23:50 PM EST


    Parent
    I like that (none / 0) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 31, 2008 at 06:02:51 PM EST
    that is a very measured recommendation.  I really like hummus but I don't understand all the comedy about Tribal Hummus in the movie.  Is there such a brand as Tribal Hummus or did they create that for the movie.  Anyhow, Tribal Hummus cures and fixes everything....they even put a fire out in a Palestinian store front with Tribal Hummus :)

    Parent
    Thanks for the h/t BTD, and to show I'm not (none / 0) (#1)
    by scribe on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:51:25 AM EST
    a ... whatever, we should note that a lot of NFL teams are giving a Big Spin to that Revolving Door of Coaching Employment this morning:

    From the Swamps of Jersey, where Woody Johnson Has Wasted Enough Band-aid Money on This Failure:   Mangidiot (five weeks ago known as Mangenius) fired.  

    From the comments in the linked article:

    Not only is he getting canned as head coach, Artie Bucco now says that he's no longer welcome at Vesuvio's.

    No doubt Tony's also looking at him to make good some of his gambling losses....

    Then we move on to the post-industrial wasteland of Detroit:  Lions clean litter box.

    How much you want to bet Tebow does not come out in the draft but decides to stay in Florida for his senior season?  I would.

    And then on to the new place next to where The Mistake By The Lake used to stand, it appears Cowher has told Cleveland (and Cowher09.com) to go away.

    I'm betting he wants the NYJ job, but only if he gets a lot of control.  It surely will pay more than Cleveland, too.

    And then there's Dallas.  Dallas, Dallas, Dallas:
    Romo collapses in shower, Eagles run the soap back for a TD.

    Later, the Cowboys are partying and playing dominoes on the flight home, "like it's the last day of school".

    Somehow, that wrongheaded behavior after one of the most brutal losses in Cowboys history all makes sense when one remembers that George W. Bush will be moving to a Dallas suburb when he leaves DC next month.  It just fits.

    Another Belichick disciple (none / 0) (#4)
    by scribe on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:10:03 AM EST
    falls, not unexpectedly.

    This is what happens to guys who work with video-slinging cheaters.

    Parent

    Good riddance! (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by kdog on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 01:07:11 PM EST
    For the first time in my life this past Sunday, I rooted against the Jets.  Rooted against them hard.

    The good guy, Chad Pennington, won and the bad guys...Johnson, Tannenbaum, Mangini and Favre...lost.  Maybe there is justice in this world after all.

    I just hope Favre is out the door next...

    Parent

    Back in Green Bay, Rodgers (none / 0) (#28)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 01:46:44 PM EST
    had a good season as Favre's replacement, amassing many thousands of yards and playing in every game despite injury -- and outplaying the rest of the Pack.  So their season record doesn't tell the story of how young Rodgers hung in there against a lot of crap from the locals here.  And he came through again yesterday with a great play to give the Pack a bit of dignity back at the end of the season by beating the Lions, too.  

    So Rodgers merited a favorable column this morn on the front page of the major paper in the state; see jsonline.com, if interested.  Me, I don't miss Mr. "Longest Farewell" Favre at all . . . nor do the young women on waitstaffs here, I can tell ya, but I say no more.:-)

    Parent

    What, was he a lousy tipper (none / 0) (#29)
    by scribe on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:30:40 PM EST
    or a butt-pincher?

    Or did he spill his coffee everywhere?

    Parent

    The latter (none / 0) (#30)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 03:57:27 PM EST
    -- at least, until his hard year of his wife's bout with cancer, his father's failing health, etc.   He matured a lot then, so I hear. . . .

    But until then, he and another former footballer known locally for his hot tub hijinks (and with a girl I knew when she grew up with my daughter) joined the many pro players here, in many sports, whose behavior toward many young women I know (as I know a lot of them, being a teacher) turned me off of the species of millionaires who made it on brawn, not brains.  They have been a blight on my city, many a time.  Another was arrested at his home only blocks from mine for dealing drugs, including to local college players who thus never made it to the pros, or even to graduation.

    These stories are public record.  The others I could tell. . . .

     

    Parent

    Detroit (none / 0) (#24)
    by cal1942 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 12:51:42 PM EST
    that place you so 'kindly' referenced as a "post-industrial waste land" is the best sports town anywhere.

    The hapless Lions actually sold out their first three home games and the Tigers played to three million at Comerica Park while finishing last in their division.

    This is not a new phenomenon. The Lions, in spite of chronic sub sub awfulness for the better part of 4 decades, have always drawn well.  The first time the Tigers finished last in the American League they still managed to draw a million through the gates in an era when a million attendance was considered a great year in any market.

    Ain't no damn waste land.

    Parent

    OK - I'm just remembering it as (none / 0) (#27)
    by scribe on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 01:17:59 PM EST
    the place where RoboCop "lived" and worked.

    I might have considered it more fondly had the Red Wings done the right thing and lost the Cup to my Pens last spring.  But they didn't and I didn't.

    Parent

    Help! re immigration law -- fiancee visa (none / 0) (#5)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:10:20 AM EST
    Any immigration lawyers appreciated!  I just found out that I am going to be the lucky mother-in-law of a lovely Australian alien, a wonderful young woman.  She goes back home in a couple of days, when there will be much heartbreak on both continents until we can get her back here.  She has applied for a position here (she is an expert in a new environmental field finally getting a push here under Obama), so there is hope that way, but. . . .

    For now, the young and in love duo are spending inordinate amounts of time on the gummint website and other websites, trying to figure out the K-1 Fiancee Visa.  Yikes, we don't make it easy for furrriners -- it's more complicated than gummint instructions for doing taxes.  So a few questions for starters, for anyone with immigration law expertise:

    Does it really take an average of seven months for a fiancee visa?

    Would we be helped by hiring an immigration lawyer -- money is tight, with all the other costs involved of her travel again, a wedding, etc. -- or is that really only for difficult cases?

    Does it help to do the informational appt with our local field office while she's here for a few more days?  We went ahead and made an appt, in case -- as it certainly can help to certify that the young and in love have been together, per the law, in the last two years . . . since they will be together in the immigration field office!

    Any info appreciated.  Love conquers all, but being apart for so long will put it to a tough test.

    Ouch (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by CST on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:18:53 AM EST
    So my cousin just did this and my sister is looking into it.  Love does conquer all, but sometimes it sure sucks waiting.

    I know when my cousin did it, her husband had to wait 6 months before coming.  They did not have a lawyer, since they didn't have funds.  If they can wait, you don't need a lawyer.  I think an informational appointment could be very useful, I know the paperwork can be difficult, and it will help you figure out what you need.

    If it's possible, you may want to look into other Visa options.  If she can get a job, come here to work, and then get married it is a lot easier/quicker than coming on a fiance visa. Of course that requires a sponser that may not exist.  Or, she can "enrole" in a class or two, come on a student visa, and then get married and drop out of school.  That is what my sister's fiance will probably do.

    Parent

    Hire the immigration lawyer (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by scribe on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:36:04 AM EST
    You wouldn't do (brain) surgery on yourself, would you?

    Anyone should consider being their own lawyer - for any purpose - through the lens of their answer to that question.

    Parent

    Cream City (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:18:56 AM EST
    TalkLeft cannot give legal advice. So if someone wants to respond to CC, say so in comments and I'll hook the two of you up by email. Please, no legal advice on TalkLeft. Sorry, but it's always been that way.

    Parent
    Ah, sorry -- thanks, anyway (none / 0) (#11)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 11:34:49 AM EST
    I guess I'm looking more for experience with this, as in CST's comment, than actual legal advice -- as I do know that legal advice ought to be compensated, and good legal advice is worth more than any price. :-)

    Parent
    You don't necessarily need a lawyer (none / 0) (#32)
    by blairwilliams on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 05:22:24 PM EST
    Actually, your case is pretty common. It does generally take about 6 months to get a K1 Visa but there are quite a few things you can do to make sure that you get it quickly. Most people take time to gather everything they need to fill out their I-129F form and when it comes to the interview they botch it. You should go check out SimpleK1.com -- that is a website that my business partner just put up. The people who download his guide to the K1 Visa are having a lot of success -- without the extra expense of hiring a lawyer.

    Parent
    Cream City-- (none / 0) (#35)
    by caseyOR on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 10:39:43 PM EST
    Melissa McEwan over at Shakespeare's Sister went through all of the immigration rigamarole to marry her Scottish husband. She might be able to give you some pointers. If you go over to her blog you'll find her email address.

    Parent
    According to Huff Post, with (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Mon Dec 29, 2008 at 07:25:14 PM EST
    link to People mag, Bristol Palin gave birth to a boy, 7 lbs. 4 oz.  I thought this would be headline news here.  Guess not.

    Monday Morning Open Thread | 40 comments (40 topical)

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