Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:36:36 PM EST
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One of the interesting things about this political campaign is how events that would normally crowd out the race have failed to. SOTU, New Years, etc. The Dem political race particularly has remained largely the biggest story most every day.

The biggest test for this phenomenon however comes Sunday - the Super Bowl, with a New England team looking to make history. Will politics have a chance that day and the day after? Will the campaign be frozen tomorrow until Super Tuesday?

This is an Open Thread.

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Open Thread | 194 comments (194 topical)

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The campaigns better be frozen.... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
by kdog on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:44:52 PM EST

to trump the Super Bowl is un-american.

To fail to root for the underdog is also un-american....Go Giants!

Go Giants. (5.00 / 2) (#3)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:53:33 PM EST

: Ditto! (none / 0) (#14)
by byteb on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:22:25 PM EST

Parent

A personal comment (5.00 / 3) (#12)
by carolyn13 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:19:05 PM EST

I've been waiting for an open thread to apologize for a minor accident a few days ago. I had Talk Left up and was reading the comments when the barbarian hordes that are my grandchildren invaded. Two of the little fiends distracted me while the five year old got hold of the mouse. I am not certain but I think he may have handed out some weird ratings to a few people. He's fascinated by numbers right now and when I caught him, he had some numbers highlighted in the ratings system. I don't know for sure if he hit the rate button too, but it's possible.

So if anybody out there had a negative rating with my name to it, I deeply apologize. I don't pay too much attention to ratings and I don't rate others negatively.

Those little stinkers outnumber me. :)

Funny. (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:20:17 PM EST

Parent

Jeez, my first ever "5", (5.00 / 4) (#16)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:26:49 PM EST

and it turns out to be a mistake.

Personally, I think rating comments is as fundamentally childish as can be.

I'm sure this post'll get some "1"s...

Parent

Oops, I just got a "5" above. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:28:40 PM EST

No offense, byteb.

Parent

: No problem. Giants' fans will take any (5.00 / 1) (#62)
by byteb on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:20:27 PM EST

and all favorable comments in these pre-Superbowl Game Days. :)

Parent

Darn you carolyn13. ;-) (5.00 / 1) (#33)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:19:54 PM EST

Parent

I don't understand (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:29:17 PM EST

how the ratings work, which is probably why I don't shut up more. Explanation would be nice for those of us who aren't that bright...

Parent

See if this link works: (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:39:39 PM EST

"Mojo"

It may sound good in theory, but on TL, anyway, it usually just turns into a pissing contest. And since anyone and everyone can post, no matter how low their "Mojo" is, it has no practical usefulness.

Parent

thank you (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 05:19:09 PM EST

for the explanation!

Parent

Hey Kathy (none / 0) (#91)
by carolyn13 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:26:27 PM EST

I finally poked around in the dashboard of my account here and found that I did rate you a 1. I had stopped on that comment to laugh!

Parent

: D'oh! (5.00 / 1) (#100)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:52:12 PM EST

Parent

YAY (5.00 / 3) (#32)
by Jen M on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:18:01 PM EST

He love numbers!

He can rate my comments however he wants as long as it encourages math interest :D

Parent

: Have a 5 (5.00 / 2) (#43)
by carolyn13 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:49:33 PM EST

I've handed out fives to all you nice people making me feel better about it, and because your comments on all the threads make me smile. We have an interesting group around here.

Parent

Welcome to TL Cay (5.00 / 0) (#29)
by athyrio on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:02:42 PM EST

Sorry to hear of your cat, as I have one that is elderly. They become members of the family.

they do (5.00 / 0) (#36)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:30:43 PM EST

become members of the family...and then they suck the life out of you and poop outside the box.

(sorry, my elderly cat is really annoying me this afternoon)

Parent

not to mention finding decapitated mice heads (5.00 / 0) (#63)
by byteb on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:23:35 PM EST

in the bathroom in the morning...

Parent

I have a feeling (none / 0) (#81)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:22:38 PM EST

I'm not the only one who has had to trim some "feathers" after litter box mistakes.

Why do we put up with them?

Parent

: Because they bestow the honor of their (none / 0) (#106)
by byteb on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:17:43 PM EST

presence on our mundane lives. :)

Parent

Hillary has tough fight (5.00 / 1) (#54)
by Coldblue on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:09:44 PM EST

on her hands. I just finished doing some phone banking for her in Arizona and while the majority of people I spoke to were elderly and had already voted for her, there were many hang ups as soon as I said I was calling as a volunteer for Hillary's campaign.

Oh, and thanks Jeralyn for your help; it turns out that I had a cookie problem :-)

hi Coldblue. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by Teresa on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:20:53 PM EST

Have you come over to a more sensible blog? I haven't seen you here but I'm delighted.

(tabbycat in tenn)

Parent

: I've been reading (5.00 / 1) (#57)
by Coldblue on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:39:41 PM EST

and had not been able to post. It was my computer settings.
Yes, this is a very sensible blog and a welcome breath of fresh air.

Parent

Progressive (none / 0) (#2)
by Stellaaa on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 01:46:24 PM EST

I hear people calling themselves Progressive. But there seem to be some nuances that I have missed along the way. Of course the term has morphed. I am stuck in the old left/liberal/socialist almost world. Social and economic justice being core values. Yet, form what I see with the Progressive pro Obama voices, it has something to do with cleverness, nuance and gyration. Old alliances, historical allegiances are to be disposed of, such as class, race, gender. In the same way there seems to be an embracing of some libertarian notions that I cannot embrace. Sure, it's easy to be against the war and Bush. But, what next. I think this health care issue will show that the alliance will fall along class lines. Social and economic justice is not as easy, not as black and white as the war and Bush. Who educated this evolving class of priveleged Progressives?

Seems the phenomen doesn't really (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by RalphB on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:09:11 PM EST

have anything to do with policies. It's still looks like a cult of personality to me for many of the Obama progressives.

I consider myself to be a moderate and he's not appealing to me.

Parent

In the blogosphere.. (5.00 / 2) (#15)
by TheRealFrank on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:25:27 PM EST

"Progressive" means "whoever agrees with me".

Parent

On the terms (none / 0) (#8)
by spit on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:06:01 PM EST

to some degree, "progressive" serves a lot of different purposes now. It was IMO sometimes used as a means to avoid the word "liberal" when "liberal" became so politically toxic in the 80's, but it also came to represent folks on the other side of the rift that formed a while back on the left, between the old-guard economic liberals of New Deal politics (unions, blue-collar workers, etc) and the rising social left that saw itself as more socially radical than the old-guard. Those have again shifted around a bit, but the basic rift remains intact.

Of course, all of those ways of looking at things are important, but the failure (at least in perception, and sometimes in reality) of the progressive movement to connect with the working class and the FDR left, and the failure in their eyes of the traditional liberal left (which has also come to be connected in some people's minds with the "third way" politics of the 90's), is sort of reflective of the way the two "types" have formed and competed for influence in the past few decades.

Personally, I call myself a leftist. But I'm more concerned with narrowing that rift than I am with the names that are used.

Sort of a ramble. Dunno if that was helpful or just confusing.

Parent

OT: Stellaaa, this one's for you: (none / 0) (#19)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:39:11 PM EST

RE REZKO AT SALON

Parent

I thought the explanation (5.00 / 3) (#167)
by BernieO on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:36:44 AM EST

at the end of the article that was given for Obama's behavior was probably the right one:

"James L. Merriner, an Illinois political expert who has conducted the only interview with Rezko since his indictment, says Obama has done "nothing illegal. It's just unsavory."

Obama knew about Rezko's legal problems, but Merriner believes he didn't think they would taint his Senator Galahad image.

"It goes back to when Obama's in the state Senate," Merriner says. "He had a real sense of personal mission. I think he thought he was just above it. He seemed to think he was on a plane above that.""

I am not trying to disparage Obama. I just know from experience that very talented, charming people who have never failed or faced tough challenges are often overconfident and a little too full of themselves. Often they react very badly when they are challenged or they lose. It is much better that they be brought down a peg if they are ever to reach their full potential.
Bill Clinton got smacked down hard when the people of Arkansas threw him out of office after his first term as governor. This was his first political setback and was very traumatic by all accounts. Yet he used this experience to learn that he could not just charm people into following his lead, he had to learn to keep in touch and respect the voters. This made him a much wiser, realistic, effective politician. He came back and was elected for four more terms as governor, during which time he was able to pass major reforms both in education and in economic policy that greatly benefitted his state.

It is very difficult to judge the character a person who has always manage to get what they set their sights on. I think it would be better for Obama and the rest of us if he does not win this time. Hillary is more seasoned and better prepared to face the challenges any Democrat or president will face. If she is tne nominee this time and Democrats get off their rears and fight back agains the media and right wing smears, she will win. Obama will have time to better prepare himself, get more foreign policy experience,etc. He will have had the experience of dealing with and learning from defeat. Obama has the potential to be a great president if he spends more time getting experience and becoming more mature. And with any luck Hillary will have cleaned up a lot of the mess we are now in and he can build on that. In my scenario the Democratic party will have the benefit of both of these people. If Obama wins now, that is not likely to be the case.

Parent

Researched, insightful, thoughtful -- thanks (none / 0) (#177)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 11:52:59 AM EST

I find I look forward to your comments here. :-)

Parent

: Thanks! (none / 0) (#189)
by BernieO on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:25:05 PM EST

I read and hear so much commentary that seems completely crazy to me that I often wonder if it is me who is making no sense. Nice to know someone thinks I am.

Parent

Not going away... (none / 0) (#70)
by oldpro on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:42:28 PM EST

...I'm trying to picture Obama defending this in a debate with the Rs next fall...and the mailings to Independents from the "Straight-Talk Express" about the Chicago machine...the Kennedy machine...the usual slime that the MSM will LOVE TO COVER 24-7.

I hate this.

Parent

Waiting for LA Times endorsements. (none / 0) (#4)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:00:01 PM EST

Sunday maybe?

They're rooting for the Giants. (none / 0) (#5)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:05:19 PM EST

Parent

Ha. I guess (none / 0) (#9)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:07:29 PM EST

the LA area can stop hating St. Louis and Georgia now that she is deceased.

Parent

: My loyalties were bred into me. (none / 0) (#20)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:43:33 PM EST

I grew up 20 mins from Giants stadium.

Parent

Super Bowl? (none / 0) (#6)
by TomStewart on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:05:26 PM EST

What Super Bowl?

Is that what Superman eats his cereal out of?

Oddest ad on last night during (none / 0) (#10)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:08:17 PM EST

the debates. Cheerios lowers cholesterol?

Parent

They do (none / 0) (#168)
by BernieO on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:39:57 AM EST

because they have soluble fiber but it is and odd ad to have during the debates - unless they figure that a lot of us older folks are more likely to watch. That could be it. If so, Metamucil ads will be next.

Parent

: Also has mono and polyunsaturated fats. (none / 0) (#170)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 11:09:52 AM EST

They're supposed to help lower the bad cholesterols.

Parent

At least it wasn't (none / 0) (#176)
by ding7777 on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 11:52:45 AM EST

a Blue Cross/Shield commercial

Parent

Even worse (5.00 / 0) (#180)
by BernieO on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:22:10 PM EST

It could have been a Depends commercial.

Parent

: Bernie (none / 0) (#183)
by Kathy on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:24:38 PM EST

the cruelest cut.

Parent

I think (none / 0) (#31)
by Jen M on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:15:46 PM EST

its some sports thingie...

Parent

I live in Packerland, Brett Favre land, so . . . (none / 0) (#42)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:46:37 PM EST

we'll just be watching the ads, thanks. Oughta take about 20 minutes via TIVO.

Parent

: I think (none / 0) (#52)
by Jen M on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:03:41 PM EST

the ads have gone downhill in recent years.
I used to watch them, they used to be great.

Parent

More interested in upcoming Carolina-Duke game (none / 0) (#7)
by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:05:56 PM EST

Go Duke!

the only games that matter (5.00 / 2) (#47)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 05:17:04 PM EST

have the words "SEC" and "FOOTBALL" used to describe them.

Parent

GO TARHEELS (none / 0) (#182)
by BernieO on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:24:27 PM EST

My family has issues with basketball. One kid went to Carolina, the other to NC State. It livens things up.

Parent

: WAR EAGLE!!! (none / 0) (#184)
by Kathy on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:25:20 PM EST

(see above)

Parent

SB predictions and old endorsement news (none / 0) (#18)
by ctrenta on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:29:53 PM EST

The good stuff first. I predict

New England Patriots 36
NY Giants 26

Brady and Manning will shine, as will Plaxico Burress and Randy Moss.

Now for endorsements. I take it people know by now about Hillary Clinton's latest endorsement by someone we all can't stand. I only bring it up because we've talked a lot about endorsements and what they're worth (or not worth). But Ann Coulter gives the nod to Hillary, if McCain gets the GOP nomination. Check it out if you haven't seen it. To me it doesn't matter what she says is false. We already knew that. The fact that this dolt is behind Clinton's got to make both of them look bad. Let's see what the Obamanista do with it.

Addendum on Coulter (none / 0) (#21)
by ctrenta on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:47:09 PM EST

Could this be the end Coulter? Is she testing the waters to see how libs respond to her support for HRC? Highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be surprised if the conservatives decide to throw her overboard soon. She's turning into damage goods I think. This tidbit might also give an indication where Ann Coulter's heading.

Parent

She just trying to shock people out of voting (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:40:20 PM EST

for McCain. Many rightwing talk show hosts and listeners are saying the won't vote for McCain in the general election. I'm in SC. Even though McCain won here, he's disliked by everyone that didn't vote for him.

Parent

If they are true to their word.... (none / 0) (#28)
by kdog on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:49:16 PM EST

the conservatives who dislike McCain are better men/women than the many liberals here who dislike Hillary or Obama, but will vote for them anyway.

It's called integrity and self-respect. If a candidate doesn't share your views don't vote for them. Simple concept really...and if liberals followed this concept Kucinich might be well on his way to winning the Dem nomination.

Instead we get crooked pikers....and we deserve it.

Parent

Simple, or simplistic? (5.00 / 1) (#60)
by cymro on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:06:07 PM EST

If a candidate doesn't share your views don't vote for them. Simple concept really... and if liberals followed this concept Kucinich might be well on his way to winning the Dem nomination.

I'd say this concept is beyond simple, it's simplistic. Why? Because it does not cover the vast majority of voting scenarios. In elections, a voter must choose among the available candidates. But both the voter and the candidates hold many views on many diverse subjects. Rarely will the views of any single candidate exactly match a voter's ideal candidate profile. So each voter has to decide which candidate they prefer, even though that candidate may not share all of their views. This decision process involves weighing the relative importance of many factors, and rarely if ever can it be made subject to the simple all-or-nothing concept your argument proposes.

Add to that the fact that the principal purpose of a primary election is to select the best candidate for the general election, not to determine the party's platform. That's why Kucinich is no longer in the running.

Parent

I see one voting scenario.... (none / 0) (#161)
by kdog on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:04:35 AM EST

pick the best person on the ballot.

By making it a Machevellian game we get Machevellian candidates that don't share our views. Maybe what we need is some simplification...forget about merely beating the Republican, focus on getting our views represented. Because my views aren't being represented, specifically an end to the occupation of Iraq and an end to the drug war...to name 2 big ones.

Parent

: The best person is ... (5.00 / 1) (#197)
by cymro on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 08:03:33 PM EST

... by definition, the one you voted for. That's because, in deciding how to vote, you weighed the relative merits of the various candidates, and chose one based on your weightings. Therefore that candidate was the best, according to your subjective evaluation. So this proposed rule is not just simplistic, it is a tautology.
And if a candidate happened to espouse views that agreed with your own on every issue (or even on just two issues you care most passionately about), then I'm sure you would vote for them. But your simplistic proposals about how to vote ("agree with their views", best person") don't really speak to the vast majority of actual voting scenarios.
It is easy to advocate slogans like ...

forget about merely beating the Republican, focus on getting our views represented
... if you do not have to explain how we are going to accomplish that. This is just like the Republican candidates who advocate deporting all the illegal immigrants. It is a policy that may sound good (to their base) but fails completely to address the next-to-impossible logistics that would be involved in implementing that policy.
The reality is that our views will ultimately not be represented unless our chosen primary candidate ends up beating the Republican in the general election. Surely the last eight years are ample proof of that fact? And that is why nominating the candidate with the best chance of winning is the optimal strategy during a primary election. It is not "a Machiavellian game," it is the purpose of the primary process.

Parent

Coulter wants war with Venezuela. (none / 0) (#45)
by Ben Masel on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 05:13:01 PM EST

McCain can't do that, as he'll have all the troops tied up in Iran.

Parent

: Hey, Ben, are you also looking forward (none / 0) (#50)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 05:38:59 PM EST

to the Dem ads if McCain is the nominee -- the ones, inevitably, that will replay his "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran" bit?
And of course, if Clinton is the nominee, we have him laughing at the question he got that called her a b***ch.
The man has done so many dumb things. . . .

Parent

If the Giants beat New England (none / 0) (#22)
by DaveOinSF on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:06:13 PM EST

That's probably worth an extra five points AGAINST Hillary in Massachusetts and Connecticut. New Englanders will be pissed and taking it out on the Senator from New York.

: The Giants are the underdogs but (none / 0) (#67)
by byteb on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:33:15 PM EST

no one expected them to get to this point.

Parent

go pats (none / 0) (#23)
by neilario on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:09:40 PM EST

so i am a hard core cambridge grrl-- so go pats :}. brady reminds me of hillary... she could be 14 points down with 2 minutes to go in the fourth on their 10 yard line and somehow I know she will win. That is why i love them both... go tom go hillary hehe

i also have to say on the sports theme that i was very sorry i had not yet connected by new Wii for the debate... my air punching when hrc got in a good one would have been so much more fun.....
definitely as the votes come in on tuesday - with all these debates it would have made for an awesome exercize plan...

Or like Obama (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by ctrenta on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:38:24 PM EST

Remember Brady came outa nowhere in 2001. If Drew Bledsoe never got injured in that Pats-Jets game, when would we have seen this talent?

I'd say Barack Obama came outa nowhere too. In 2004, Obama trailed Blair Hull and Daniel Hynes and a popular GOP nominee in Jack Ryan. Ryan went down over sexual accusations from his ex-wife and voila. What if those allegations never surfaced, just like Bledsoe never got injured against the Jets? Who knows, but his 2004 election reminds me a lot of the 2002 super bowl against the Rams. What a great comeback.

We'll see if Obama can get the nomination and win the general election. If so, that'll make three wins big wins for Obama just like the Pats three super bowls.

OK... that was all cheezy.

Parent

I'm a Jets fan.... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by kdog on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 03:44:04 PM EST

and not a season goes by where I don't think "If Mo Lewis didn't hit so hard we wouldn't be in this mess"

The Curse of Mo Lewis

Parent

: mumble...mumble... (none / 0) (#34)
by desertswine on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:24:51 PM EST

mumble... damn jets... mumble...mumble...
the jets will have you talking to yourself

Parent

Any relationship between (none / 0) (#30)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:06:00 PM EST

Brady and that injury and Obama and Kumbaya?

Parent

Q: Why won't they let Gravel play the Superbowl? (none / 0) (#44)
by Ben Masel on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 05:10:08 PM EST

A: League rules require an Owner.

every little bit helps... (none / 0) (#46)
by mike in dc on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 05:13:15 PM EST

...as they say. A wave of newspaper endorsements, moveon.org, SEIU, Kennedy, a good debate performance, possibly a prominent latino newspaper endorsement as well...a promising week for Obama.

He had no chance of winning Cali 2 weeks ago, and the early voting may still make it impossible to pull ahead, but he'll make it a lot closer than was anticipated. From what I understand, the people voting on election day in Cali would have to go for him almost 60-40 in order for him to win, and I don't see that happening. But I could see him maybe with 45% of the vote and Edwards with 5%, narrowing Clinton's margin quite a bit.

If he's within 10 percent or less of her delegate total on 2/6, he's still in this thing. A bigger margin, like 250+, and it's probably over, since it's too hard to wipe out that kind of gap. Plus the media would declare her the winner.

If it's less than a 100 delegate deficit, he can make that up within 2 weeks. If it's around 50, he'll probably end the month ahead of her.

Once you get out past Pennsylvania in April, there's not a heck of lot of delegate left to fight over. And the superdelegates will have mostly weighed in by then, too.

thanks for the delegate (none / 0) (#49)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 05:24:37 PM EST

odds. I was wondering how they were shaking out at the moment. From what I read on MyDD, Obama has left CA to Kennedy (who, surprisingly, has not gotten the same youth turn-out as Obama. Who would have guessed?)

Has anyone seen this Kenya story on Taylor Marsh? What's up with that? Seems a bit out there. I know she totally nailed the Rezko timeline and all, but I am having a hard time following the ins and outs.

(also,I get really uncomfortable when civilians interfere with foreign policy at this level, even with Edwards, whom I love, calling Mushariff, I think that until you get the job as president, you should not be making phone calls and trying to intervene in other governments. Especially when you are running for the presidency; it gives your voice more weight than it should have)

Parent

: Taylor Marsh's site is pretty toxic now (none / 0) (#169)
by magster on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:55:44 AM EST

against Obama. I just read your link, and the article accused Obama of taking sides of the Rwanda-like genocide wannabes. I very much doubt that Obama wants a continuation of the violence that has recently plagued Kenya.

Parent

I just read the endorsement of Obama. (none / 0) (#51)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 05:57:44 PM EST

Ends with the word "aspiration." Although the endorsement says Obama is strong on foreign policy, technology, global warming etc., no details. Editorial board seems caught up in the adulation and no small amount of, oh, not another Clinton, and, will she be able to control Bill?

Given the lack of detail, especially as applicable to California readers of the L.A. Times, I don't see this endorsement as moving any voters to Obama. In addition, many people in CA vote absentee and have already mailed their ballots.

apparently the LA Times (none / 0) (#53)
by athyrio on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:09:25 PM EST

is now owned by some people from Illinois which is Obama's home state.

Parent

: So true. (none / 0) (#55)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 06:12:13 PM EST

But, the Chicago Tribune has been running articles on Rezko/Obama relationship.

Parent

LA Times (none / 0) (#58)
by RalphB on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:02:22 PM EST

The Los Angeles Times is owned by the Tribune Group from Chicago. Their endorsement of Obama makes sense in that the Chicago Tribune (conservative paper) endorsed Obama last week.

Parent

: As far as I know, to date no California newspapers (none / 0) (#64)
by byteb on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:28:36 PM EST

have endorsed Senator Clinton.

Parent

Just curious (none / 0) (#59)
by Satya1 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:06:06 PM EST

Anybody know what California newspaper endorsements Sen. Clinton is getting?

: Some CA papers are (none / 0) (#88)
by ding7777 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:50:36 PM EST

The Post News Group and El Mundo Endorse Hillary Clinton for Democratic Nomination
Publications include: Berkeley Tri City Post; El Mundo; Oakland Post; Richmond Post; San Francisco Post; and South County Post
Link

Parent

1.4-million-member union for Clinton (none / 0) (#61)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:09:04 PM EST

Just got a call from my union reminding me that we endorsed Clinton -- back in October. But glad we're getting calls now.

It's AFT, the American Federation of Teachers. And the call reminded us that the endorsement is owing to Clinton's record and proposals for not only education but also health care and the environment, the issues that teachers said were significant for us . . . i.e., for our students, our future.

Not for nothing but Hillary didn't say boo (5.00 / 1) (#105)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:14:18 PM EST

when she was on the union-busting board of Walmart, and also didn't say boo about Kodak, the #1 industrial pollution in her state of NY.

Support her as you like, but accept who she is.

Parent

ABC and FOX (none / 0) (#115)
by PlayInPeoria on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:38:40 PM EST

statrted the is one. Know there are some really honest, objective jounalists (NOT).

The following is a statement by Stuart Appelbaum, president of the 100,000-member Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union, regarding recent attacks on Sen. Hillary Clinton related to her having once served on Wal-Mart's board of directors.
RWDSU families are proud to be in the forefront of the campaign to keep Wal-Mart from opening in New York City -- and we are equally proud of our close friendship with Sen. Hillary Clinton.
We know from experience that Hillary understands that strong unions built the American middle class.
We know from experience that union families can count on Hillary to be on their side, not once or twice, but whenever she is needed.
We know from experience that Hillary shares our belief that Wal-Mart and other retailers have a moral responsibility to respect every worker's right to organize.
She has stood with us and has been and continues to be supportive of our efforts to call attention to Wal-Mart's business practices that hurt working families. And she has lent her voice to calls for the giant retailer to change its ways.

Parent

It is geeting late (none / 0) (#116)
by PlayInPeoria on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:39:58 PM EST

started thison. NOW....

Parent

You're slurring your words. (none / 0) (#119)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:48:03 PM EST

Not easy to do when typing.

Ah well, it is Friday night.

Sleep well all.

Parent

AH, YES (none / 0) (#120)
by PlayInPeoria on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:51:30 PM EST

but even slurred they speak the truth....

Clinton served on the Wal-Mart board of directors for six years, for which she was paid $18,000 a year, plus $1,500 a meeting. She also received roughly $100,000 in Wal-Mart stock. According to the nonpartisan Annenberg Political Fact Check, Clinton used her status on the board to urge the company to promote women and adopt more environmentally friendly practices -- although she never tackled the company's

Good night.

Parent

anti-union stance. (none / 0) (#129)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:52:30 PM EST

...althoughshe never tackled the company's anti-union stance.

Sleep tight.

Parent

She increased awareness for (none / 0) (#155)
by PlayInPeoria on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 08:39:57 AM EST

women and environmental issues at the time. The idea that she did not tackle the union issue does not make her anti-union.

Clinton used her status on the board to urge the company to promote women and adopt more environmentally friendly practices

The "you are for me or against" mentality has been a phenomenon of the Bush era. It excludes the complexity of our society and promotes division. Bush ran as the bi-partisan candidate.... take that into today's primary and you begin to understand the passion against a bi-partisan message.

Good morning.

Parent

So my original comment was: (none / 0) (#172)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 11:26:39 AM EST

Hillary didn't say boo when she was on the union-busting board of Walmart

And you, in your dissenting response, provided an tangential NPR quote about Hillary and Walmart. However, the part of that quote which you forgot to include said:

she never tackled the company's anti-union stance.

Which, oddly enough, completely validates my original comment.

As I also said:

Support her as you like, but accept who she is.

Parent

Walmart (none / 0) (#181)
by Kathy on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:22:25 PM EST

Is headquartered in Arkansas, which is a right to work state. You can have a union, but legally, it has no teeth. It's the same here in Georgia where the "teacher's union" is actually housed in the dept of ed building downtown because they can't afford space.

Let me repeat this part: unions have little or no power in most southern states. So, Hillary (first woman ever on the Walmart board) chose to fight for the rights of women and minorities in the company rather than tilt at windmills and take on the union question--which, as I've said above, would have made no discernable difference. When she saw that even that was not working, she resigned. And this was at a time when she and then-governor Clinton were not exactly rolling in dough.

Concessions they got from Walmart during the 80s: the Made in American program that kept jobs in Arkansas and the community investment programs to help children and the working poor.

Further, if you look at photos they have of Hillary standing in front of that podium at Walmart, you'll notice that she looks about twelve, which might lead a reasonable person to believe this was back in the late eighties when Walmart was a fraction of its size. It was not the "evil monolith" you see before you. It was trying to overtake K-Mart and Sears. No one at that time really cared if they had a union or not.

But, let's get real here: Obama should not be throwing out charges against Walmart because his wife Michelle worked on the board of one of their biggest suppliers until recently, when she resigned to work on his campaign. She got far more money than Clinton did, and from all accounts, she accomplished nothing during her tenure.

Glass houses.

Parent

: Simpler (none / 0) (#199)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 09:58:56 AM EST

You can have a union, but legally, it has no teeth.
You don't have to join to have a job.

Parent

SOOOOO (none / 0) (#190)
by PlayInPeoria on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:42:29 PM EST

she never tackled the company's anti-union stance

That does not make her anti-union. She has helped and support unions... that is why unions are endorsing her.

Your take is that because just at that one moment in time that she did not tackle the union situation that she is anti-union.... I will take her overall record as to who she is and where she stands.

Parent

: Your take is [...] that she is anti-union (none / 0) (#192)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 04:30:14 PM EST

Hardly.
My take, for the third and last time, is that she didn't do boo for the unions when she sat on the board for the anti-union WalMart.
That you and Bush seem to share a similar "you're either for me against me" mentality is unfortunate, but not particularly unusual around here.

Parent

If I was in that union.... (none / 0) (#162)
by kdog on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:15:50 AM EST

I'd go to more meetings and peep my leadership because they must be smoking crack.

Bottom line...Clinton was sitting right there on the Wal-Mart board and she couldn't find the time to discuss labor. Spin and double-speak all you want but that is mind-bogglingly inexcusable to me.

Parent

: READ THIS (none / 0) (#185)
by BernieO on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:37:34 PM EST

This artical is a much more balanced picture of what Hillary did when she was on the board of Walmart that what is being generally reported.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/20/us/politics/20walmart.html?pagewanted=print
She succeeded in pushing Walmart to be more green but this is the most impressive thing she did:
"For Mrs. Clinton, being a director at Wal-Mart gave her access to several of the state's most powerful business executives. In the early 1980s, for example, Mr. Walton was instrumental in building support for a corporate tax program, pushed by Mrs. Clinton, that financed a major education overhaul in Arkansas, a signal achievement of her husband's governorship."
In my book this was nothing short of a miracle. Think about it - she got a major corporate leader to help pass a CORPORATE TAX to support education reform. FYI, the education reform that was passed was sorely needed and was spearheaded by Hillary. It made a big difference to the pathetic education system that had been in place in that state.
My question is why are major mainstream media outlets like ABC only telling us the negative part of the story?

Parent

Obama and Wallmart (none / 0) (#133)
by Stellaaa on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:57:51 PM EST

bama's Forgotten Wal-Mart Endorsement: Putting Workers Second and Going Along to Get Elected

Parent

My husband's union (none / 0) (#113)
by PlayInPeoria on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:31:53 PM EST

(ATU) is supporting Sen Clinton also. We received a letter on Wednesday reminding us of the endorsement. Also received a phone call tonight.

Parent

I was just reading First Read on MSNBC and (none / 0) (#65)
by Teresa on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:28:57 PM EST

see that Obama again made the statement that he knows Hillary's voters will vote for him but he isn't sure that all of his supporters will do the same.

Does he not realize that McCain will probably get the nomination? Any Republican or Republican leaning Independent will at least consider voting for McCain. Obama isn't polling so well against McCain as a matter of fact.

He said this again today. I guess last night was just a temporary truce.

There Are Other Things He Hasn't Taken Into Accoun (5.00 / 1) (#159)
by MO Blue on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 09:58:44 AM EST

What he fails to realize is that Clinton is bringing out a large number of women and many of them are independent. They are angered when seeing his sly little put downs of Hillary during the debates and his treatment of her in general. Won't go into all the negative buttons he pushes with many women. Also women have some of the best women on women networking systems in the country, play groups, school events, various clubs and organizations etc. and they talk about things like this. One of the reasons Kerry lost was because he didn't win enough of the women vote.

If Obama is the nominee, he might just be unpleasantly surprised at how many of Hillary's independent voters will not vote for him.

Parent

Many apologias here when he made a (none / 0) (#66)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:31:00 PM EST

similar statement before SC primary. Does not play well with others.

Parent

I find it an incredibly arrogant statement. (5.00 / 0) (#73)
by Teresa on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:46:11 PM EST

I think there are some young voters who won't bother to vote but is he forgetting that women are voting in huge numbers too? We've all read stories of women registering to vote so they can vote for Hillary. Maybe they will just stay home too.

I can't believe he brought it up again. He's also forgetting that to the "experience" voters, McCain will come out on top for some of them who are less loyal to the Democratic Party than we are.

Parent

From pollster.com 1/30 re women voters: (5.00 / 1) (#76)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:58:33 PM EST

Missing: Republican Women Primary Voters

"Although it hasn't stopped folks from trying, it's a little too early to tell how people will vote in the November general election. But primary turnout so far suggests that the gender gap is poised to increase. The gender gap, which is the difference across gender in the vote for the winner, has existed in every presidential race since 1980. . . .

"So far, in every single primary, women made up a much higher percentage of Democratic primary voters than Republican primary voters. As the table below shows, in South Carolina, 61% of Democratic primary voters were women. In the early Democratic contests, women were 57%. By comparison . . . [Republican] women were clearly a smaller part of their process.

"Further, I don't think this simply reflects Clinton encouraging new women voters -- although that may be happening. . . . What should really concern Republicans is that in nearly every contest, the percentage of women participating in the primary dropped from 2000, the last time no incumbent was running. . . . Does this mean that women will be even more likely to vote Democratic this November? Perhaps too early to say, but certainly turning out in a Democratic primary, or sitting out the Republican contest, are good first steps. . . ."

A link there to a brief history of the gender gap shows its significance in two elections, especially, '92 and '96 -- the only two times that Dems have won in more than a quarter of a century.

(Why can't Obama bring out men in comparable percentages?)

Parent

you know (none / 0) (#78)
by Jgarza on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:13:51 PM EST

There is a reason they call the democrats the mommy party. This is not something new for this election.

Parent

You are not looking at the stats (5.00 / 1) (#80)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:16:33 PM EST

The increase for the Dems is new, where it is drawn from is new . . . and your refusal to read and see it is getting old.

Parent

Cream (none / 0) (#84)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:35:32 PM EST

Yep. Better not to read stats. Hard to argue against something when you know it's not true.

I am really getting annoyed about the MSM going out of their way to bash Hillary. Someone was interviewing Hillary supporters on the news (ABC), and they were all so tepid. How hard is it to find women who are excited? Ask me. I'll give you a glowing review and bore you to death with policies.

It's just such a slant, and so contrary to what is really going on in America. So many young women are voting-for the first time-for Hillary, yet they give all the credit to Obama (and if I am reading statements right, he takes the credit, which is so arrogant!)

It's so twisted, and it basically treats young women as if they are chattel. Kind of reminds me of television commercials lately, where the only time you see a woman smiling is if she's cleaning up a mess someone else made or gazing up worshipfully at a man who has apparently just popped some Viagra.

Ugh.

Parent

Kathy -- (none / 0) (#104)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:14:11 PM EST

Did you see the video Jeralyn posted -- Jan. 26, "Hillary's Most Vocal Supporters"? Scroll back and see it, if you missed it. That's what ABC missed, and it would have made for much better tv. :-)

Hang in there. I tell myself that no matter what happens, this campaign season already is something that our grandmothers would have given a lot to see -- we're the "daughters' daughters" for whom they fought in the "century of struggle." So I can try to struggle through a couple more days of suspense 'til Super Tuesday!

Parent

Cream (none / 0) (#156)
by Kathy on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 09:02:31 AM EST

I did see it--fabulous, and really how I feel on the inside (I'm not a jump up and down kind of person)

I just watched this report on universal healthcare CNN has been running, and they only mentioned Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney, like it was a done deal. So, of course this got my attention. Then, slowly they started going into scare tactics about how it would cost so much money and blah blah blah.

I guess they got the Obama mailer.

Parent

Re: "not a jump up and down type person" (none / 0) (#174)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 11:30:37 AM EST

I beg to differ. Just mention Michelle's job interview and, . . .

Parent

well... (none / 0) (#193)
by Kathy on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 04:44:26 PM EST

that's jumping up and down on the inside.

God, please don't let's talk about the job thing again. Where is Stellaaa? Let's get some Rezko going...

Parent

I will give it up (none / 0) (#194)
by Stellaaa on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 05:04:14 PM EST

for lent on Fat Tuesday. (LOL) I had enough of that. The circus will be the trial, no one is doing any new reporting.

Parent

: Did I miss another Lent? (none / 0) (#195)
by Kathy on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 05:37:12 PM EST

I tell ya, I was smart that time when I gave up religion for it.

Parent

Because men can (none / 0) (#200)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 10:03:12 AM EST

recognize that BHO is spewing nonsense when he shouts change and never says what he wants to change.

Change tires?

Shirts??

Parent

But, McCain doesn't have the (none / 0) (#92)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:28:02 PM EST

three surviving members of the Grateful Dead pulling for him now, does he? Talk about lookiing to the future!

Parent

yet (none / 0) (#72)
by Jgarza on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:45:04 PM EST

Obama isn't polling so well against McCain as a matter of fact.

Yet he is still doing better than her in match ups against him.

Also the people he is talking about are young people, young indies and repubs, are never voting for McCain.

Parent

i suggest you take a look at (1.00 / 1) (#83)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:31:32 PM EST

kenya and see how the "former clinton aids" now working for obama" have screwed that one up. they sent morris to kenya to be a politcal consultant to obama's cousin. and he promptly fanned the flames of the current discontent going on there. africa is more a place of tribes rather than countries. obama's "cousin" is a muslim and is promising shira law. they people of kenya see obama as just another member of that tribe. that is how they view things.

so you think that obama will do well against mccain. think again.

Parent

Wow now you are blaming (3.00 / 1) (#95)
by Jgarza on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:44:07 PM EST

Obama for Kenya

I almost quoted the worst part of this in here. But please delete this, this site si becoming an Obama is Muslim chain email.

Parent

jgarza, it is in the media that (3.00 / 2) (#97)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:49:16 PM EST

obama has communicated with his cousin about kenya. obama's father was muslim and so is the cousin.

no, i don't think obama is a muslim and really don't care. his religeon is of no importance to me.

i mention this as it will be used by the repubs in the election whether obama is the veep or presidential candidate. that is to counter the contention that obama can beat mccain.

so please refrain.

Parent

you just blamed Obama (1.00 / 1) (#103)
by Jgarza on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:12:41 PM EST

for Kenya, with no basis in fact
your entire post is really disgusting
stop

Parent

: jgarza, i won't be responding to any more (none / 0) (#110)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:25:21 PM EST

of your comments. i try being even handed in my comments to you, but unfortunately i don't see it in you.
unfortunately, you seem to think that just attacking is the way to go.

Parent

wow (3.00 / 2) (#98)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:50:59 PM EST

you are totally misreading those comments if that is what you think was said. The connection you report was never made or even implied.

I think the greater point was that Obama argues that his living abroad gives him special insight into other cultures, yet here is an example where he has tried to intervene and has not brought about peace.

(as an aside, I'm glad "cousin" was put in quotation marks in the original remark. While it is possible this man is a blood relation, "cousin" is a term often used in friendship in that part of Africa, as "auntie" or "uncle" is used in Singapore or "brother" is used in the West Indies. It does not necessarily mean they are cousins.)

Parent

: LA Times endorsement gives Obama (none / 0) (#102)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:59:43 PM EST

cred. for having lived in Hawaii (!) and Indonesia, having a Muslim father and relatives in Kenya.

Parent

is that what's going on? (none / 0) (#85)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:38:28 PM EST

I asked about this earlier when I read it on Taylor Marsh. Seems very convoluted, and I will freely admit I don't comprehend all the ins and outs, but I was dumbstruck that someone who is not acting as an official spokesperson for the US government had the hubris to interfere in our foreign policy like that. And now people are being murdered with machetes. I have a friend whose father is over there (British citizen) and they cannot find him. He has been missing for weeks. They fear the worst, but the area is so volatile that no one can go in without risking more lives. Awful, awful situation.

Parent

i just read that there is a "peace" (1.00 / 1) (#89)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:04:38 PM EST

agreement in kenya. i hope so. of course, obama, wasn't mentioned. hmm!

i have a friend from zimbabwe and things are really bad there. it is true that africans think in terms of tribes rather than country.

so to think that obama will do better against mccain strikes me as odd. that type of thinking does not bring into account all of the ammo they'll throw at him. he isn't used to it and frankly i don't personally think he can handle it. that is just a small portion of the type of thing they'll bring up.

Parent

According to Fri NYT, estimated (none / 0) (#93)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:30:49 PM EST

three million Zimbawan refugees in South Africa at present.

Parent

: it is a very bad situation. (none / 0) (#94)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:33:47 PM EST

mugabe is a terrible tyrant. more people than that have fled to other countries. that includes those with money and education.

Parent

Machetes? How about poison freakin' arrows. (none / 0) (#107)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:22:41 PM EST

From correspondents in Nairobi
January 23, 2008 11:33am
KENYAN marathon runner Wesley Ngetich has been killed by a poisoned arrow, the second international athlete to be claimed by post-election chaos.

Next it'll be boiling oil and crucifixions.

Parent

I think you meant never voting for Clinton. (none / 0) (#74)
by Teresa on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:49:36 PM EST

You said the opposite of what Obama said. You are also forgetting women Jgarza.

Parent

i'm refering to what you said (none / 0) (#75)
by Jgarza on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:55:33 PM EST

Does he not realize that McCain will probably get the nomination? Any Republican or Republican leaning Independent will at least consider voting for McCain.

Also I'm not forgetting about women. Hilary's base is older white women, they aren't coming out in higher percentages than they normally do though. Not because Hillary doesn't excite them but because they already vote in high numbers, there isn't really margin to improve.

Parent

Not so; see analysis above (n/t) (none / 0) (#77)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:59:15 PM EST

Parent

ohh and this (none / 0) (#79)
by Jgarza on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:15:44 PM EST

"Further, I don't think this simply reflects Clinton encouraging new women voters -- although that may be happening. . . .

Parent

: Yes, that says that even more than (5.00 / 1) (#108)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:24:04 PM EST

the Clinton crossover may be other factors motivating women to vote even more than before. And you somehow read that as saying there's not a crossover for her -- and you lose the focus on the point to begin with here. You said women's vote could go no higher, this says that women are voting more even than before, no matter for whom they are voting.
So once again, you're just wrong. You're setting quite a track record here.

Parent

The Denver Post has endorses Hillary (none / 0) (#68)
by athyrio on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:36:33 PM EST

plus the republican lady that I spoke with and she agree to vote for Hillary but said she would not vote for her if Obama is on the ticket...So Obama better rethink his stategy as alot of people don't like him.

: Clinton's favorables among real Dems (none / 0) (#71)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:44:11 PM EST

far higher than Obama's, too -- some study I saw the other day at pollster.com or rcp.com. And another analysis at pollster.com showed she is getting great crossover from Republican women, accounting for the stats of women being 60% of voters in several states so far (ditto in SC but that also was AA women for Obama -- and those were not Republican women).
I'm so tired of still being told that no one likes Clinton. Dems like her more, Republicans cross over for her -- and it doesn't look like they would do so for Obama. So I see her as MORE electable.

Parent

i'm reposting for you (none / 0) (#69)
by Jgarza on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 07:41:44 PM EST

Your link is not proper form, just in case you get deleted you can repost your post or just leave my copy up.

LA Times Endorses Obama and McCain (none / 0) (#41)
by Dalton Hoffine on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 04:42:17 PM EST
In addition to the 650,000 member SEIU labor union in California backing Obama as their choice, the LA Times has announced that they are also endorsing Obama and McCain. Think these two powerful endorsements will matter any on Feb. 5th, and if so, to what degree?

here is the link

two campaigns (none / 0) (#82)
by andreww on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:23:58 PM EST

have supposedly purchase commercials for during the superbowl.

: I hope she uses (none / 0) (#86)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:39:50 PM EST

the one...what's it called "Hillary left the band"
Absolutely hilarious. Very clever stuff.

Parent

just saw this on another blog (none / 0) (#87)
by athyrio on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 08:43:16 PM EST

if Obama wins hes toast for sure. They attack him hard in this document. It's huge in pdf format like 37 pages long. it has a table of contents and all.

Amanda B. Carpenter Obama More Pro-Choice Than NARAL 4
Ann Coulter Jonathan Livingston Obama 5
Tom Fitton Barack Obama's Whitewater? 7
Amanda B. Carpenter Obama's Voting Record Belies Moderate Image 8
Steve Chapman Barack Obama and the Pertinent Precedents 10
D.R. Tucker Will GOP Be Ready for Obama Onslaught? 12
Amanda B. Carpenter Barack Obama Is Just Another Liberal 13
L. Brent Bozell III Youth Double Standard: Obama vs. Dubya 15
Robert Spencer Our First Muslim President? 17
Dennis Byrne Is Obama Black Enough? 18
Bill O'Reilly The Perils of Obama 20
Mac Johnson Barack Obama: The Human Rorschach Blot 21
Michelle Malkin Obama: Wasting His Own Breath 23
Ben Shapiro Iran: Praying for Obama 25
Ericka Andersen Debate Coverage: The Obama Question 27
Monica Crowley Who The Liberals Really Are 29
Erica Anderson The Liberal Egotism of Barack Obama 31
Dan Proft Reality of Obama Taking Hold 32
Robert J. Caldwell Obama in Perspective 33

so the republicans are armed and ready....Look out and vote for Hillary...

: remember who these people are.... (5.00 / 1) (#112)
by allwrits on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:30:58 PM EST

Look at the list of the people. Close your eyes. Take yourself back to 1994. These same folks were talking about Vince Foster, black helos & the clinton kill list. They will come out hard against anyone who runs.
The great thing about American politics is you don't have to win everyone over, you just need one more vote in the electoral college than the other side.

Parent

No Child Left Behind (none / 0) (#90)
by javaman on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:11:04 PM EST

Waht's the deal with Bill Clinton criticizing Ted Kennedy over this bill when his wife also voted for passage of this bill.

Every child left behind (none / 0) (#96)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:44:53 PM EST

I know that it's a position of every democrat that No Child Left Behind was a massive failure because, yet again, Bush made broad mandates but did not handle the details, like funding the dang thing. A handful of states are suing the fed dept of ed because of lack of funding. I think even Texas, where it started, has stopped using the program. It is a disaster. Yet another example of Bush setting the vision but not handling the details.

Parent

wasn't ted kennedy part of writing that (none / 0) (#99)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:51:35 PM EST

bill? frankly i am surprised that kennedy allowed himself be used in a bill that was only good for hype.

Parent

he got suckered (none / 0) (#118)
by Judith on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:46:30 PM EST

and he admits it.

Parent

thanks, we all have been suckered by w. (none / 0) (#121)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:52:30 PM EST

Parent

: I thought he (5.00 / 1) (#123)
by Judith on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:56:03 PM EST

was a jerk in 2000...but never in my wildest dreams did I see what a monster he would be.
And thanks to our wonderful media we got him shoved down our throats in 2004.
Aint fallin for that trick again.
have a good superbowl weekend...

Parent

Link? This isn't quite clear. . . . (n/t) (none / 0) (#109)
by Cream City on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:25:00 PM EST

Parent

I don't understand the "dynasty" label (none / 0) (#101)
by ding7777 on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 09:59:09 PM EST

Why is Hillary being burdened with the "Bush - Clinton dynasty" mantra just because

not enough people voted for Dukakis in 1988

not enough people voted for Gore(in Florida, anyway) in 2000

not enough people voted for Kerry in 2004

If you don't understand, (none / 0) (#111)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:25:24 PM EST

no one can explain it to you.

Parent

If you could have explained it (none / 0) (#154)
by ding7777 on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 06:36:42 AM EST

you would have.

I guess its just another mud ball to throw

Parent

: I'll give it a shot (none / 0) (#171)
by magster on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 11:14:48 AM EST

(And, btw, I have no problem voting for Clinton in November, and have chosen Obama primarily because of Iraq, and Obama's ability to get the youth to participate in large numbers as Democrats, which will pay off for many years to come)
The dynasty thing just seems un-American, like quasi-royalty. 32 years of presidency shared by only two families just seems kind of wrong. And I bet you $5 that Jeb will run for president in either 2012 or 2016. And Chelsea will be old enough to run for President in 2016 too (God I'm old!).

Parent
: Yep. You got me pegged. (none / 0) (#173)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 11:28:39 AM EST

Parent

ding (none / 0) (#117)
by Judith on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:45:59 PM EST

there is nothing to understand...it is a dumb complaint.

Parent

My beef with it is..... (none / 0) (#163)
by kdog on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:19:25 AM EST

24 years is too long for 2 sets of cronies to hold all the cards.

This is America...let's give a new set of cronies a chance to steal and mis-manage.

Parent

Snipes verdict: Thought fo sure there'd be comment (none / 0) (#114)
by allwrits on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:32:16 PM EST

I am surprised no comment on the Wesley Snipes verdict. It was a huge, HUGE, defense win.

i wonder what was behind all of it. (none / 0) (#122)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 10:53:05 PM EST

Parent

Celebrity worship. He was only convicted (none / 0) (#124)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:19:16 PM EST

of misdemeanors, but his CPA and the fellow who promulgated the theories to which Snipes allegedly subscribed, were convicted of felonies.

Parent

i have a relative who is an attorney/cpa and (none / 0) (#125)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:23:54 PM EST

she does not think too highly of the irs.

Parent

at least snipes can now move on and (none / 0) (#126)
by hellothere on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:24:31 PM EST

get back to his life.

Parent

IRS can still file a civil lawsuit to (none / 0) (#131)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:54:55 PM EST

recoup unpaid income tax according to article in LA Times.

Parent

: yup, snipes does have that over his head. (none / 0) (#191)
by hellothere on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:55:28 PM EST

i remember when willy nelson had problems with the irs. we thought at one time he would have to sell his ranch. today he is in much better shape.

Parent

Hillary Rally in San Jose (none / 0) (#127)
by Stellaaa on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:37:37 PM EST

Just got back from a wonderful Hillary Rally in San Jose. Ahh, her speech was awesome. She is an amazing speaker. about 10,000 people were gripped. A loving and excited crowd, ready to go out and get the job done. I needed a real old fashioned political scream fest. What can I say, no bad notes. Except for a guy in front of us who kept booing Diane Feinstein every time she talked. I am not a Diane fan, but why aggravate everyone around you? I guess it's the old times troll.

Did the guy say anything about FISA? (none / 0) (#128)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:52:26 PM EST

Thanks for the first hand report. Huge crowd.

Parent

Correction on number? (none / 0) (#135)
by Stellaaa on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:01:06 AM EST

A cop there told me about 10,000, then read the San Jose Merc, they say 4,000. They only expected 2,000. I have to say, I just don't know how they do this physically.

Parent

This is why the National Park Service (none / 0) (#138)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:09:54 AM EST

now declines to estimate crowds on the mall in D.C. Lots of controversy, dueling estimates, etc. Who was on the stage with Hillary? Remaining members of the Beatles? Elvis? (I'm somewhat amused by the three extant members of the Grateful Dead making an appearance on behalf of Obama this weekend in No. CA somewhere.)

Parent

Dead heads...! (5.00 / 0) (#141)
by Stellaaa on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:20:26 AM EST

I will not snipe at them cause Phill Lesh helped us raise 268,000 to save the music programs in the Berkeley schools. I and some other naive mothers said, let us raise the money for one year and we will find a way to fund music permanently. And we did. Thanks to Phill Lesh.

The audience included hundreds of local union members representing among others, painters, bricklayers, letter carriers and the United Farm Workers. "We will make this economy work again for hardworking middle class families," she told the crowd. "We will begin to put people back to work and we will give ourselves the kind of boost that comes with investing in the future with green collar jobs in clean and renewable energies."

Fienstien, Huerta, Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, Rep. Ellen Tauscher, D-Walnut Creek, Ironically, Tauscher was one of 31 Democrats who crossed party lines in 1998 to vote for the impeachment inquiry in connection with former President Bill Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky. She voted against the final articles of impeachment. I talked to people and they really were excited about the healthcare program. They were impressed with the debate. This is from the San Jose Mercury:

Nora Mascan, 30, of San Jose added "I'm a Muslim woman and I can't tell you what it would mean for me to see a woman president of the United States."

Parent

: Thanks. And yeah for you (none / 0) (#142)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:30:52 AM EST

and all the others who worked hard to get music back into the public schools. I cannot imagine going all the way through grade school and high school w/o music, but that is definitely what is happening now, at least in some schools.

Parent
: Muslim women (none / 0) (#157)
by Kathy on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 09:08:23 AM EST

I heard someone at my gym the other morning whose big anti-Hillary argument was, "How is she going to go into Muslim countries and get any respect?"
To which I finally said, "Do you think Bush has any respect in Muslim countries right now?"
It's amazing how far some people will stretch. And I don't mean muscles.

Parent

Booing Diane.... (none / 0) (#164)
by kdog on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:21:34 AM EST

he was probably a stoner. We don't like people like Diane...people with so much zeal to lock us up.

Parent

Breaking: Senator Specter takes (none / 0) (#130)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:53:25 PM EST

NFL to task for ordering destruction of the Belachick (sp.) tapes.

Belicheat. (none / 0) (#132)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:56:55 PM EST

My Bostonian brother adores him.

Go Giants.

Parent

I've no dog in this fight. (none / 0) (#134)
by oculus on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 11:58:02 PM EST

Parent

It's the SB. Ya gotta be for somebody. (none / 0) (#136)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:03:24 AM EST

If only to make the game fun. The Chargers, but for a few bad breaks, could easily have been there. The Pats are in your conference, you might want to root for them. If but for the Pats, you'd be in the SB.

Parent

Today on NPR's Marketplace there was (none / 0) (#137)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:07:14 AM EST

an obscure reference along the lines of, if an original NFL team wins the SB, stock market goes up, at least I think that['s what they were talking about. How does that play out here?

P.S. Catchers and pitchers report soon.

Parent

: The market goes up when Microsoft buys Yahoo. (none / 0) (#139)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:12:47 AM EST

And most Mondays. Everything else is just an urban legend.
See you Monday.

Parent
: Pitchers and catchers.... (none / 0) (#165)
by kdog on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:24:38 AM EST

Mets get Johan...what a coup!

Parent

I'm always for the halftime act (none / 0) (#140)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:19:34 AM EST

-- after all, those have created more excitement, and in less time, than some of the <snore? games.

Parent

Just give it up, Clinton supporters. (none / 0) (#143)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:37:55 AM EST

Susan Eisenhower endorses Obama.

Omigod, she has been such a role model for me (5.00 / 1) (#148)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:30:54 AM EST

Ooops, I meant that other Susan.

Now that Margaret Truman is gone, and with all these Kennedy kids getting all the attention, Susan Eisenhower must be needing some headlines, huh? "Hey, there was a president in between. Hey!"

I have not heard anything about Susan Eisenhower since . . . oh, 1959? The year that Mary Ann Mobley won Miss America -- with a strip-tease! -- and Anita Bryant came in second. And Susan Eisenhower wore those freeky dresses ten feet wide, too.

But at least she had semi-normal hair, not like Mamie's do. So we have seen progress.

Parent

Have Julie and/or David made (none / 0) (#149)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:43:25 AM EST

a pitch yet? And how about those Nixon girls?

Parent

: Nixon girls (none / 0) (#152)
by Stellaaa on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 02:17:53 AM EST

Lets get them to endorse Obama.

Parent

Ok... (none / 0) (#144)
by Stellaaa on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:05:24 AM EST

Going back to my cave. Let them fix the world.

Parent

Actually... (none / 0) (#145)
by Stellaaa on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:06:48 AM EST

I am despondent. People are buying the marketing. Look, Oprah sold the Secret last year, this year it's Obama. Man, what machine is selling this?

Parent

Did you see my reply to you earlier (none / 0) (#146)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:17:06 AM EST

today? Salon has an article up about Rezko.

P.S. I doubt too many people know who Susan Eisenhower is, so just enjoy the high from attending the Clinton rally. Also, please note Kos himself is discussing why Obama lost last night's debate.

Parent

Kos is just having fun with the kiddies (5.00 / 1) (#147)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:24:25 AM EST

and driving up hits as they come home from the bars.

Parent

: You are probably right. But look at us, (none / 0) (#150)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:45:49 AM EST

still active in a post from this morning!

Parent

I just checked and my cable company (none / 0) (#151)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 01:50:28 AM EST

doesn't carry Hallmark channel. Too bad, as I wanted to watch HRC's town hall Monday night. According to the Huff Post article, Bill and Chelsea will be in different cities than HRC, who will be in Manhattan. Might be quite interesting, especially if Bill's mic suddenly cuts out.

Parent

: Oculus (none / 0) (#158)
by Kathy on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 09:10:51 AM EST

I believe they will stream it on her website. At least I think they should!

Parent
: In my town, the Clinton office has a gathering (none / 0) (#160)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 09:59:59 AM EST

scheduled to watch it together at a tavern.
And not even the tavern that draws a good crowd every month for Drinking Liberally -- a tavern named for an Italian anarchist a century ago. . . .
Of course, in my very ethnic working-class town, there's a tavern on every corner. And a church. That's a competition that has been going on for many a century.

Parent

Maybe it's the contrarian in me (none / 0) (#178)
by stillife on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 11:56:01 AM EST

but the more endorsements Obama racks up, combined with the Obama lovefest on the MSM and many blogs, it just makes me support Hillary more strongly.

This is my first comment here. I've been lurking for a week or so and enjoying the posts and comments. It's difficult to find a blog that's not overwhelmingly pro-Obama, so this is a breath of fresh air.

On a personal note, my 80-year-old mother is an Obama supporter (she lives in Illinois). I'm trying to keep the debate amiable, but sometimes I have to grit my teeth! I've just discovered, to my great joy, that my rather apolitical 22-year-old son, who lives in PA, watched Thursday's debate with his girlfriend and as a result, they are both voting for Hillary in the PA primary (of course, by then it may be too late, but I hope not). My 18-year-old daughter will be voting for the first time ever in NY on Tuesday. She's supporting Hillary, but she's upset that Kucinich and Edwards have dropped out already.

I'm in Brooklyn and I just got a call from my Congressman, Ed Towns, urging me to go to the polls on Tuesday and vote for Hillary.

I know this is purely anecdotal, but it's comforting to me that the support for Obama among young people and politicians is not quite as monolithic as the MSM would have us believe.

Parent

Welcome, and my progeny (none / 0) (#179)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:21:55 PM EST

son and daughter in their mid- to late '20s, also are voting for Clinton. And if Super Tuesday is not decisive, our primary two weeks later will matter.

Btw, Chelsea Clinton is headed to my town this week, and we expect to see more pols soon. But this state has seen Hillary Clinton many, many times over many years. We know her, and we're strongly for her here. And a press roundup this week on what's going on at campuses here found better-organized Clinton efforts than Obama efforts. At the second-largest campus in the state, one of the sixty or so largest in the country and close to home for us, the Obama campaign on campus turned up three students at an event. That will change, but . . . soon enough?

Parent

Thanks for the welcome (5.00 / 0) (#186)
by stillife on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:39:44 PM EST

the country and close to home for us, the Obama campaign on campus turned up three students at an event. That will change, but . . . soon enough?

This is extremely surprising to me. I guess I had bought into the myth that students on college campuses were lining up to vote for Obama. That being said, there's no massive Obama movement at my daughter's college. Based on what she's told me, a lot of the students (particularly the guys) are voting for Ron Paul.

Parent

: Now that you mention it, I am hearing (none / 0) (#187)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:48:12 PM EST

about young men going for Ron Paul. Hmmm. . . .

Parent

Giving 110% (none / 0) (#166)
by Bob In Pacifica on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:34:15 AM EST

Hey, did anyone notice that a precinct in Broward County, FLA had a record voter turnout last Tuesday? Yeah, 110% of the voters turned out. That's great for your football team, not so much for your voting machine. That's what you get on touchscreens.

At least the Secretary of State in California has been trying to clean out all the crappy voting machines.

: CA absentee ballot: no chad potential. (none / 0) (#175)
by oculus on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 11:36:54 AM EST

Back to completely filling in the oval.

Parent

Humor on the campaign trail (none / 0) (#188)
by BernieO on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 12:56:21 PM EST

Anyone ever notice how weird the songs played at campaign events can be? "Cats in the Cradle" was once played at a Bush II event. How funny is that? Bush was trying hard to convince everyone that he was not a clone of his father, so his campaign plays a song about a boy wants to grow up to be just like his dad! Even funnier, the dad was neglectful, and the kid does grow up to be just like him.

But my all time favorite was an event for Bob Dole that my husband happened to catch one Saturday afternoon when he-not I- was channel-surfing. (I think we were the only two people in the whole country who saw it). Dole entered to the strains of "Play that Funky Music White Boy"!The confused look on his face was priceless. If only he had started to dance.

I thought it was clever of the Clinton campaign to play "Taking Care of Business" after her speech thanking the Florida voters.
This isn't a song but for a funny visual check out the "Situation Room" clip at http://www.thedailyshow.com/

Clinton Lovers (none / 0) (#196)
by Kathy on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 05:50:14 PM EST

who are looking for more love--

MyDD has a great story from someone who attended a rally in CA today. Very exciting stuff! (and so happy to see Bradley Whitford coming out for her.)

Not Good For Obama (none / 0) (#198)
by squeaky on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:57:21 PM EST

In Newton, Iowa, on December 30, 2007 Obama said that the The Nuclear Release Notice Act was "the only nuclear legislation that I've passed"

The NYT begs to differ.

But, contrary to Mr. Obama's comments in Iowa, it ultimately died amid parliamentary wrangling in the full Senate.
[snip]
Illinois' senior senator, Richard J. Durbin, a fellow Democrat, was a co-sponsor, and three other senators, including Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat of New York, later signed on. But Mr. Obama remained its primary champion.

Strange that he took something that was good and lied about it.

Obama's response Fact Check on New York Times Story responds to the NYT article in depth but mentions nothing about that the main point of the article:

why did he say it passed when it did not even get to a vote?

Strange, and not good for Obama

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