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    Interesting Florida Poll (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:58:21 PM EST
    Hillary or Obama versus McCain in Florida.

    I'll just link to it at MyDD.  

    MyDD

    Unity? (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:14:53 PM EST
    I still don't see how Obama or any other Democrat is going to be able to work with this group of Bozo's. That's the main reason I haven't jumped on the Obama wagon. After all that has been done illegally by this administration, I don't want them to be able to walk away scot free. If we don't go after them, the bar will just be moved higher and higher.

    it not about unifying parties (none / 0) (#87)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:21:20 PM EST
    it about unifying the poulation. reagan did it why can't a democratic leader.

    Parent
    The Memes (none / 0) (#2)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:08:08 AM EST
    Amazing how this election is basically fueled by memes that start somehow on the web, then get picked up by radio and MSM.  The after the Potomac memes are:  
    1.Silencing millions of voices.
    2.Penn should be fired.
    3.Hillary cheated.  

    Of course the trajectory of how they move should be documented after the campaign by forensic journalists and election experts.  

    January was framing the Clintons as racist.  

    February was dredging the Old Clinton ghosts and how unelectable they make her.  


    Penn should be fired (none / 0) (#5)
    by andrewwm on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:19:21 AM EST
    Regardless of whatever happens in this primary. He's one of the biggest Democratic sellouts in Washington (his firm has worked on union-busting public relations among other corporate activites) and I would be very happy to see him and his firm go quietly into the dustbin of history.

    Parent
    Penn meme (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:27:06 AM EST
    It's not a meme (none / 0) (#21)
    by andrewwm on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:30:05 AM EST
    He's objectively an agent of the worst form of Democratic politics that's been practiced. He was a key adviser to Lieberman and other DLC Democrats. The polling/strategy firm he set up has done work for Wal-Mart on union-busting and helped defend firms when they have screwed the public. His book, Microtrends, is everything that is wrong with the Democratic party.

    His latest remarks are just icing on the cake in my book.

    Parent

    Good (none / 0) (#40)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:47:28 PM EST
    don't hire him.  

    Parent
    He's right on this one. (none / 0) (#30)
    by rebecca on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:50:29 AM EST
    Penn is a detriment to Hillary.  He's one of the big reasons I didn't want her elected in the first place.  If Obama hadn't lowered himself below her on too many issues I would be supporting Obama.  Penn is not someone I will defend.  

    Parent
    substance? (none / 0) (#31)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:56:30 AM EST
    Stellaaa... come on, I know you can come up with more substantive comments than this.

    It seems that you are defending Penn because he works for Clinton and not because you want to defend Penn.

    Do you really think that Penn is good for the Clinton campaign?

    As an Obama supporter, and I am appreciative that Penn has been so influential in the Clinton campaign, as I believe that it has hurt her chances.

    Parent

    Penn not the issue (none / 0) (#37)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:34:14 PM EST
    You are trying to kick in the knees. I don't give a hoot about Penn right now. If she starts firing people cause you don't like him how does that look? Axelrod and Penn are hired guns. They would sell their mothers to win campaigns. Please, this is American politics not Sunday school.

    Parent
    what? (none / 0) (#51)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:36:15 PM EST
    I am not kicking anyone other than Penn.

    Penn IS the issue - what don't you get about that?

    Why don't you attack BTD for saying the same thing?

    Parent

    he does not harp (none / 0) (#62)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:49:35 PM EST
    umm... (none / 0) (#64)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:53:37 PM EST
    ... BTD has been MUCH more vocal about Penn than I have.

    And the only reason I am continuing to "harp" is because you keep making false assertions about what I am doing.  

    Parent

    His rhetoric is offensive (none / 0) (#46)
    by magster on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:31:53 PM EST
    The "all hat no cattle" and "Obama states don't matter" is telling half of the Democratic electorate that they're gullible and irrelevant.  He's crossing a line between campaigning for his client and a scorched earth policy that hurts both Clinton and Obama.

    Parent
    Clinton could lose more than the primary (none / 0) (#52)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:37:17 PM EST
    Going negative or hanging in the race long after she has lost, will damage the Clinton name. Bill has already took some polish of his cred with the AA population.

    Parent
    Speaking of scorched earth (none / 0) (#60)
    by BernieO on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:46:30 PM EST
    what about Obama's Harry and Louise tactics. He damaged his own ability to get health care through. After all his arguments against mandates forcing people to get coverage they cannot afford works against his own plan which has mandates for parents.

    Parent
    Not an indictment of Clinton's supporters (none / 0) (#69)
    by magster on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:58:24 PM EST
    I didn't like the ad either and I'm not defending it, but that ad is not relevant to my point. That ad was attacking her policy, not her supporters intelligence or relevancy.

    I live in one of the irrelevant states that has Obama beating McCain by 10% and Hillary losing to McCain by 10 %.  My voice is not irrelevant, and Obama has plenty of "cattle" to go with his message and increase in Democratic registration and participation.

    Parent

    thank you (none / 0) (#97)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:37:59 PM EST
    people need to hear this before they dismiss Obama's biggest strength. He is going for far more than half.

    Parent
    I don't think the Clintons were racist (none / 0) (#12)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:23:52 AM EST
    But it did seem that they were willing to play to racist feelings to get ahead.


    Parent
    Obama was willing (none / 0) (#19)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:27:59 AM EST
    to do that too.

    Parent
    Not as a weapon (none / 0) (#32)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:02:18 PM EST
    Not as a weapon. Big difference.

    Parent
    Turning fairy tale into racism (none / 0) (#34)
    by rebecca on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:12:42 PM EST
    isn't using racism as a weapon?  

    Parent
    That did not start with the Obama campaign (none / 0) (#49)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:34:35 PM EST
    The first rumblings came from black talk radio shows.  People were sincerely bothered by that remark.  I don't think it was meant that way, but the Jackson comment was.

    Parent
    It doesn't matter where it started (none / 0) (#81)
    by rebecca on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:11:02 PM EST
    it matters who pushed it and one person who knew better and still pushed it was Michelle Obama.  Whether she started it or was just repeating what some others had said she very definitely used this as a weapon which was your point that the Obama's didn't use racism as a weapon.  

    Parent
    It's not fair (none / 0) (#4)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:18:21 AM EST
    and it's the whole "Clinton Rules" thing.

    But, sadly, it's the reality.  Perception matters.  And, therefore, it's relevant.  Sadly.

    Why should a president do that? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Polkan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:30:36 AM EST
    That's something I never understood.

    Why is an American president required to be some sort of moral compass? I'm re-reading a history book and keep being reminded that the Fathers seemed to have intended the Congress to be that.

    Does this need for a moral guiding light in an elected official speak to some other issue?

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#7)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:21:29 AM EST
    I don't think Obama would accept the nom without winning the pledged delegate count. That is easy to say though, because he is all but guaranteed to win in pledged votes and popular votes now.

    Hillary's campaign plan is exactly the opposite. They are praying to keep their delegate loss close enough that they can still win with superdelegates some how. The Obama's states don't count silliness is part of the set up for that.

    Not winning TX, PA, or OH by sizeable margins should end it all, and Obama winning just one of those states, would undeniably set him miles ahead. Even Hillary would have to see the writing on the wall. Her loses would be beyond any wrangled superdelegate count.

    So Basically (none / 0) (#35)
    by BDB on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:30:00 PM EST
    Obama will only set a standard that he thinks he will win.

    What if he is clearly behind by, say, 500,000 votes in the popular vote?  What's his argument for Supers should follow the pledged delegate count instead?  There's no rule requiring that.  

    The only thing that makes the pledged delegate count have any moral weight is the extent to which it reflects the popular vote.  If it does not, then going by it is no more going by the will of the people than simply having the Supers vote however they want to.

    Parent

    obama would have dropped out... (none / 0) (#44)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:30:15 PM EST
    wow you sure twisted my statement.

    I think Obama would have dropped out by now, if he was in as bad a postion as Clinton.

    She does not have the math to win.

    Parent

    Reverse that though (none / 0) (#47)
    by solon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:34:13 PM EST
    Since delegate count, not popular vote, determines who gets the nominee, the popular should not play a role. In fact, as I have said before, since there is no standard for the contests within the Democratic contest, the total of the popular vote will be misleading. If you were to get the states to make sure you use the same type of contest and allow only registered Democratic voters to participate, then you may have a case. But since there is no standardization, the total popular vote is only misleading... and this would be true for which ever candidate ends up with the lead.

    Parent
    Gross, sorry for ugly post (redo) (none / 0) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:22:30 AM EST
    Kathy, lets track this today.
    "I think for superdelegates, the quality of where the win comes from should matter in terms of making a judgment about who might be the best general election candidate," said Mark Penn, Mrs. Clinton's senior campaign adviser.


    I guess when you are losing (none / 0) (#20)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:28:54 AM EST
    I guess when you are losing these statements seem smart. I see it as power hungry, and desperate. Not big vote getting qualities.

    I think the Clinton brand could end up being very tarnished by the end of this primary.


    Parent

    Ok (none / 0) (#41)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:00:16 PM EST
     "power hungry"  "desperate"  "tarnished Clinton brand"

    Thanks for the conservative talking points.

    Parent

    Clinton won't do a 50 state strategy in GE (none / 0) (#50)
    by magster on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:35:58 PM EST
    Because she's burning bridges with 45 of them (or at least Penn is).

    She should send a message to these states that she respects their vote and will work for them in a GE and include their concerns in her platform.

    It's not enough to win the nomination.

    Parent

    So burn our friends first (none / 0) (#71)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:00:22 PM EST
    Michigan and Florida

    Parent
    I don't think the (none / 0) (#99)
    by Lena on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:39:02 PM EST
    general public cares too much what Mark Penn says. They see it as political gamesmanship, not deriding of their states.

    On the other hand, they can easily witness first-hand the attempts by Barack Obama to take away Florida's and Michigan's say in the nominating process. This brands him as a sore loser (or sore winner - we'll see...).

    Not only that, most people can see that his concern for delegates is an end-run around the popular vote because he might not have the majority of the popular vote when this is over. It's pretty obvious.

    I am not naive enough to think that BO and HRC won't make every argument they can to win the nomination. However, if BO gets away with disenfranchising Michigan and Florida, and, after failing to reach 2025 delegates, arguing that delegates matter more than the respective number of popular votes... he will quickly be the one to be seen as the power hungry, "ignore the voices of millions" candidate.

    Parent

    "Florida Disenfranchised Again -- (none / 0) (#101)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:55:09 PM EST
    and This Time by the Dems" is not a headline we want to see.  Of course, even worse would be "and This Time by the Dem Nominee."  Think about it, Obama.

    Parent
    he can include FL and MI and still win (none / 0) (#103)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:44:44 PM EST
    he can include FL and MI and still win

    Parent
    Did Obama say this about McCain? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Saul on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:23:10 AM EST
    A large part of Obama's rhetoric is looking forward to change and not looking back to the old politics and political machinery of the past, implying the Clintons represents this past.  Somewhere I heard he made a remark about the length of time that McCain has spent in Washington, I believe he said words to the effect, "He has been there for fifteen years", implying that, Mcain embodied the past just like the Clintons.  Did Obama ever say any such words on how long Mcain has been in office?  Yes or No.?  If he did what was the exact quote please?  

    I hope he didn't say it (none / 0) (#54)
    by magster on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:38:31 PM EST
    Because McCain has been in Washington DC for 25 years.

    Parent
    I did read that -- and (none / 0) (#91)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:28:30 PM EST
    I keep wondering why Obama is not only so ahistorical but also so stuck on the last 15 years meme -- same one he used anti-Clintons in his pro-Reagan quote.  Does he think nothing happened before he was 30, or that none of us a bit older than he remember the realities and realize how wrong he is?  (Or, conspiracy-theory style, is there a reason he doesn't want anyone to think about him before he was 30?  That includes the years he was Harvard Law Review editor, which is hot stuff -- but maybe that isn't appealing in his attempt to get the working-class vote, too?  Anyway, I don't get this repetition of "the last 15 years meme," since it's wrong about McCain's record, the start of the conservative revolution with Reagan, etc., etc.)

    Parent
    what should Clinton do? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Polkan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:23:49 AM EST
    Assume Clinton finishes with about a 100 pledged delegates less than Obama, i.e. small difference versus total number of delegates available.

    Assume also that concepts like majority/popular vote are not the ultimate "decider" as far as superdelegates are concerned.

    What is the most effective way for her campaign to move the argument towards looking at the voter base and November prospects?

    It seems she can't really say anything here that won't cost her more negatives. Or can she?

    a 100 is small? (none / 0) (#22)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:30:26 AM EST
    A 100 delegates is not a small amount.

    Parent
    that's not what i asked, but ok (none / 0) (#26)
    by Polkan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:35:01 AM EST
    well (none / 0) (#39)
    by Polkan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:47:00 PM EST
    maybe i should just "withdraw" this question.

    this was meant to be a question about tactics and campaign communications, without making a judgement, moralizing, candidate asessment or talking points.

    anyway, thanks

    Parent

    Obama is clearly the candidate... (none / 0) (#63)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:51:36 PM EST

    ...ready to lead us into a McCain presidency.

    Parent
    I don't think (none / 0) (#45)
    by Shawn on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:31:49 PM EST
    President McCain will appoint her to the Supreme Court.

    Parent
    If she's behind by (none / 0) (#56)
    by magster on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:40:26 PM EST
    enough pledged delegates that FL and MI wouldn't matter, she should withdraw.  There's no positive spin left.

    Parent
    ummm.... (none / 0) (#13)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:26:28 AM EST
    ... no.

    This is what he should be fired for:

    Could we possibly have a nominee who hasn't won any of the significant states -- outside of Illinois? That raises some serious questions about Sen. Obama.
    And you know it.

    Don't distort things, please.  

    It is politically foolish for Penn to make a claim that 21 of the 22 states that Obama has won are not "significant."

    And again... I believe that Penn should have never been hired by the Clinton campaign for a myriad of reasons.  This is just one example of his incompetence.

    Mark lost it (none / 0) (#24)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:31:41 AM EST
    Mark's big state strategy is why Clinton has lost.

    Parent
    Puerto Rico will vote how? (none / 0) (#14)
    by jcsf on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:26:32 AM EST
    Any ideas?  

    I read a story that Jesse Jackson won the 1984 primary, and since every time since then, there has been an "agreed upon" Democratic candidate, Puerto Rico has gone with that candidate.

    Will the machine go with Hilary, or will there by contested caucuses?

    Puerto Rican governor endorsed Obama (none / 0) (#57)
    by magster on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:42:21 PM EST
    FWIW.  Otherwise I have no clue.

    Parent
    Which may help Clinton more (none / 0) (#93)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:30:21 PM EST
    The PR governor has got problems with his people.

    Parent
    Talking about FL & MI (none / 0) (#15)
    by katiebird on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:27:03 AM EST
    Jane and Ezra are talking about the FL & MI delegates and other convention issues.

    Losing the popular vote shows (none / 0) (#17)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:27:32 AM EST
    that you lose contests that most mimic the general election.

    Winning mostly caucuses shows that you can bring out activists, but you don't bring out the general population to your side.  It goes to the legitimacy of your win, which I also think goes to the bitterness that people in the larger blue states might feel about your win.  That, in turn, goes to turnout.

    Had he won 50-50 caucuses-primaries, this would all be moot.

    And before you start calling me a "hypocrite," YES, I would think the same thing if Hillary were in the same situation.

    ugh... (none / 0) (#28)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:38:04 AM EST
    I replied to a similar comment you made earlier in the now closed thread.  And the idea that Obama hasn't won primaries is a blatant lie.  

    Obama has won 22 states.  13 of them have been primaries.

    Obama has won all but one caucus.  And 13 of 24 primaries (including Michigan and Florida).  Here are the primaries that he was won:
    Virginia
    Maryland
    Washington, DC
    S. Carolina
    Alabama
    Alaska
    Connecticut
    Delaware
    Georgia
    Illinois
    Missouri
    Utah
    Louisiana

    So in other words, Obama has won 9 of 10 caucuses and 13 of 24 primaries.  

    But yea... somehow he can't win primaries so his campaign isn't legitimate.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#38)
    by BDB on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:38:54 PM EST
    A caucus vote only equals more in terms of converting it into pledged delegates.  

    There are numerous ways to calculate the popular vote lead.  Obama is up in all of them, but how much depends on how you calculate it.  Via OpenLeft

    Straight and Narrow Count: Popular votes plus state delegates, no Michigan or Florida
    Obama: 9,284,899
    Clinton: 8,568,941

    Best Possible Obama Count: Popular votes plus estimated popular support from caucus attendees in states that only counted delegates. No Michigan or Florida
    Obama: 9,560,675
    Clinton: 8,761,747

    Best Possible Clinton Count: Popular votes plus state delegates plus Michigan and Florida
    Obama: 9,853,940
    Clinton: 9,754,300B

    Broadest Possible Count: Popular votes plus estimated popular caucus support plus Florida plus estimated Michigan support with Obama on ballot
    Obama: 10,349,066
    Clinton: 9,885,732

    Mixed Broad Count: Popular votes plus Michigan and Florida plus estimated caucus popular support
    Obama: 10,129,716
    Clinton: 9,947,106

    I tend to like the two broad counts because I don't think state delegates are meaningful.  Voters are meaningful and the two broad counts include caucus participants (which I think are important and should be counted in Obama's favor).  

    Parent

    what is this "estimated Obama support" (none / 0) (#55)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:38:58 PM EST
    that's a ridiculous thing to throw into a mathematical count. It's one thing to count uncommitted, it's another to manufacture a hypothetical number. Or to manufacture a number as if Obama had been on the ballot.

    Use the actual numbers of florida and michigan to count voter support.

    Official Florida results:

    Hillary Clinton  870,986     
    Barack Obama   576,214
    John Edwards  251,562     
    Total voting for other than Hillary or Obama: approx. 300k    

    (as to %, Hillary: 49.8%, Obama: 32.9%)

    As to Michigan:

    Hillary Clinton     328,151             
    Uncommitted      237,762

    (as to %, Hillary 55.3%, Uncommitted 40.0%)

    Those uncommitted could have been for Edwards, Biden, Richardson -- or decided later for Hillary.

    If Michigan gets seated, they will have 128 pledged and 28 unpledged delegates.  (same link)

    If Florida gets seated, they will have 185 pledged and 25 unpledged delegates.      

    Parent

    Obama rips off Clinton economic politicies (none / 0) (#33)
    by athyrio on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:03:13 PM EST
    non story (none / 0) (#48)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:34:20 PM EST
    non story

    Parent
    Judge for yourself (none / 0) (#53)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:37:56 PM EST
    Great story getting play (none / 0) (#95)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:34:04 PM EST
    in Wisconsin's press.  The economy talk will matter a lot here -- bad as it already was, with many parts of the state already in the undeclared recession, we now are seeing the impact of one of the worst winters in a while for huge heating bills, too.

    So the press is paying attention to economic policies -- health care and the war also being economic issues here, for reasons I can elaborate on more anon -- and McCain's comment gets him press.  That it gets Clinton press on a day when Obama is out of the state and out of the news cycle here is great.

    Parent

    Sen Clinton loses a SD (none / 0) (#36)
    by PlayInPeoria on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 12:31:16 PM EST
    From NBC's Domenico Montanaro
    The Obama campaign announced Christine "Roz" Samuels, a DNC member and superdelegate from New Jersey, switched her support from Clinton to Obama. NBC News can confirm that Samuels had been supporting Clinton.

    She also lost Tom Lantos, who passed away.

    Not good for Sen Clinton ... NOT becaus eshe lost one... BUT that NBC will use it as a sign of a Sen Obama surge.

    Also, I'm not sure this is a very good endorsement...

    The Obama campaign also announced the endorsement of former Republican Sen. Lincoln Chafee, of Rhode Island. Chafee switched his party affiliation to independent after losing his seat to Democrat Sheldon Whitehouse, who is supporting Hillary Clinton.

    Looks like an "old Joe endorsing McCain" move.


    Roz Samuels is old news. (none / 0) (#65)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:53:46 PM EST

    Who's covering the SDs that Clinton picks up?

    Parent
    Chafee looks good (none / 0) (#67)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:56:42 PM EST
    reaching across and gathering new voters is a winning theme for Obama. Chafee's support feeds that theme. media will eat it up, since Chafee recieved much support from McCain in the past. they went ballistic at Redstate when they saw the endorsement.

    Parent
    Contempt citations on Bolton and Miers (none / 0) (#42)
    by scribe on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:26:06 PM EST
    Approved, 232-30-1.

    oops - 223-32-1 (none / 0) (#43)
    by scribe on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:26:30 PM EST
    is the right count.

    Parent
    Don't count on the Rezko thing (none / 0) (#58)
    by BernieO on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:43:48 PM EST
    being ignored. The Republicans will not ignore it and the trial is starting soon. Unless the media decides they love Obama more than McCain they will jump in, too.
    Remember, Gore and Kerry were clean, too, but that made no difference.

    nothing there (none / 0) (#61)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:49:06 PM EST
    They are welcome to spend as mucgh time on it as they wish. There is nothing that horrible there.

    Mark Penn would have had 10 mailers out on it if there was. Drudge would be supplying the info.

    Parent

    How do you suppose so (none / 0) (#66)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:55:48 PM EST
     since the Clinton campaign is taking the standard Dem tactic and staying away (for the most part) from picking at it?

    If Obama gets the nom, you will see him go up in flames by the Republican machine.  You can't really be so naive to think that the Republicans WANT unity (look at what they're doing to McCain!), that they WANT Obama to be their president?

    Parent

    Obama is the better canidate (none / 0) (#72)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:00:59 PM EST

    Obama is a better politician than Clinton. That is why he is winning. that is why he beet MCCain in national polls by a sizeable margin, where Clinton is sometimes losing in the matchup.

    He can handle Repubs. They were planning on facing Hillary for so long, no their attack machine has to start from square one.

    Parent

    me bad grammar (none / 0) (#73)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:02:15 PM EST
    sorry

    Parent
    A Word On Attack Machines (none / 0) (#74)
    by glanton on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:04:28 PM EST
    I've heard that argument bandied about a lot, but the truth is, Obama will also be starting from dquare one when it comes to battling Republicans.

    Seeing as how, he has shown zero interest in doing this so far, in the primaries.

    An Obama nomination guarantees there will be no referendum on the kast 8 years of GOP rule.  Instead, some out of context scrum for the Lieberman/Chafee voting block.

     

    Parent

    Clinton can't bring up Iraq (none / 0) (#83)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:15:29 PM EST
    Obama can and will.

    Parent
    So first (none / 0) (#109)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:17:58 AM EST
    "Obama is a better politician than Clinton. "

    Obama is "not a politician"/the anti-establishment candidate (according to most Obama fans), but now he's a "better politician" than Clinton?

    Wow.  

    Parent

    Drudge (none / 0) (#77)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:08:00 PM EST
    would be all over this.  Drudge is all about "the early scoop" and not likely to sit on things.

    Parent
    Rezko and ties to Chicago radicals (none / 0) (#98)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:38:19 PM EST
    who epitomize the era he calls the "excesses of the '60s" are being readied against Obama, I hear from Republican friends who are crowing about both.  And the Dohrn-Ayers tie is beginning to surface on Illinois blogs, too.

    I see now what it means that Obama, with his easy races in his career, has not really been "vetted."  And that makes me really worry about winning back the White House -- and about President McCain saying we'll be at war in Iraq for 100 years.  Heaven help us all.

    Parent

    Do you have any links to (none / 0) (#110)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:24:16 AM EST
    the Dohrn-Ayers blog posts?

    Parent
    A good example for us to follow? (none / 0) (#59)
    by mike in dc on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:44:25 PM EST
    Obama took a day off today to spend Valentine's Day in Chicago with his wife and kids.

    Happy Valentine's Day, folks!

    Same to you (none / 0) (#75)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:06:14 PM EST
    I'm taking the wife and kids out to eat...

    Parent
    Old style Valentines cards (none / 0) (#86)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:17:51 PM EST
    For anyone interested here is a link to a beautiful collection of old style valentine cards.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/23516766@N04/

    Brought back childhood memories for me.

    Parent

    Republican Walk out (none / 0) (#70)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 01:59:36 PM EST
    Just heard the Republican's walked out of the House in protest over contemt citation. Why don't the Democrat's ever learn from their tactics. I can think of quite a few votes that they should have pulled the same stunt with! Also can the Democrat's hold the vote without them?

    them walking out reminds me (none / 0) (#76)
    by athyrio on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:07:06 PM EST
    of a little boy taking his ball and going home with his lip stuck out LOL....

    Parent
    they love (none / 0) (#79)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:08:39 PM EST
    their Bolton.

    Parent
    Fun With Demographic Stereotyping (none / 0) (#80)
    by glanton on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:08:56 PM EST
    If you have yet to see this video funning with the split between Clinton supporters and Obama supporters, it's worth checking out.

    How much of this is true... (none / 0) (#84)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:17:02 PM EST
    "Barack Obama doesn't need any lectures on special interests from the candidate who's taken more money from Washington lobbyists than any Republican running for President,'' Obama camapign spokesman Bill Burton said. "Hillary Clinton should tell the people of Ohio the truth -- she once bragged about helping to pass the nuclear bill she's now criticizing Obama for, she came out with her plan for green jobs one month after Obama did, and she's said she'd `go after' people's wages if they couldn't afford health insurance under her plan.'' (from here)

    particularly the bolded part?  I've read all about the bill that Obama let die because of his lack of passion for it/campaign contributions from Exelon, but I've never read anything about Clinton being involved in the bill, or having said anything related to that bill (the same bill Obama told Iowa voters was the "only nuclear legislation he's passed", but in fact it did NOT pass)?  I'm hoping fellow Clintonistas might be able to help.

    Ah ha, I meant italicized, not bolded. (none / 0) (#85)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:17:32 PM EST
    Whoops.

    Parent
    Humor (none / 0) (#88)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:22:21 PM EST
    <a href="http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/">Real or a joke</a>

    Frankly I cannot tell if this is serious or a joke.  

    Ugh oops... (none / 0) (#89)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:23:26 PM EST
    Joke or real I cannot tell

    Parent
    Joke. (none / 0) (#94)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:31:01 PM EST
    Check the comments.  But it's an interesting commentary on the reality of his campaigning nonetheless.

    Parent
    sort of an insult (none / 0) (#100)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:42:35 PM EST
    to suggest it is real don't you think?

    Or is calling obama supporters here cultists still fair game?

    Parent

    So where do we stand on the amnesty issue? (none / 0) (#90)
    by katiebird on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:27:44 PM EST
    So where do we stand on the amnesty issue?

    Now that we love rules so much?

    (the above was bitter snark) (none / 0) (#92)
    by katiebird on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:28:44 PM EST
    The above was bitter snark and probably should be deleted...

    Parent
    Will Josh post a mea culpa? (none / 0) (#96)
    by standingup on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:36:36 PM EST
    Greg Sargent has a new piece up this afternoon following up on the Shuster suspension.

    Anyway, this should settle it: As dumb and clueless as Shuster's "pimp" remark, this was never really about him. The Clinton campaign, while genuinely upset about what Shuster said, lashed out at the network because they were primarily irked by Matthews' conduct, and were sending a message to MSNBC that it's time that Matthews muzzle himself.

    Nothing yet from Josh but given the amount of attention he gave to Hillary trying to get Shuster fired, I would expect he should post his own explanation on the TPM front page too.  

    I think that a lot of the comments (none / 0) (#102)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:13:09 PM EST
    I read on all sides of the issue depend on sources that are have no reference.  This can be misleading or confusing I like to be given the source of things that are used as evidence otherwise I tend to ignore them.  Having said that I would invite Obama followers to find out who the economic and foreign affairs advisors are for his campaign and then do a search of them and see what they were doing in the 90's.

    Dirty tricks are nothing new, but... (none / 0) (#104)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:46:37 PM EST
    Bill jokes about talking to "the largest crowd of an event that's been cancelled".

    I still think the conservatives (like the types who pulled the prank) really want Obama in there so they can run scorched earth.

    And woo, New Mexico to (none / 0) (#105)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:24:47 PM EST
    Hillary.  Finally, LOL

    Is this right? (none / 0) (#106)
    by Polkan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 05:19:34 PM EST
    I can't figure out if this one really adds up. Need help  :-)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kristen-breitweiser/reality-bites-swingstat_b_86653.html

    One of Keith's top stories (none / 0) (#107)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 07:33:28 PM EST
    tonight was how a McCain staffer (can't remember his name) will have to quit the McCain campaign if Obama is the nominee.

    Why?

    Because said person would be uncomfortable "attacking Obama".

    In other words, message from Keith: "Obama, great guy? or so great of a guy that a McCain staffer would rather lose his job than attack him?"

    I'm sure wonkish people would know who the guy is, but he's certainly not someone who is on my radar (and I follow politics pretty closely).I searched and searched and could not find any top story about this anywhere on even MSNBC.  Why this was top news on Keith's show, when there are so many stories that would fall into that category, is, well, anybody's guess ;-).

    I then switched over to O'Reilly for some fair and balanced coverage.

    The Best John McCain can do to Clinton. (none / 0) (#108)
    by BrandingIron on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:04:23 AM EST
    This ad has been nagging one of my sponsor-driven journal pages for a while and I've ignored it until just now.

    And Obama fans still contend that the Republicans would have a truckload of dirt on Hillary.  Mm.