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Texas Post-Debate Live Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:49:30 PM EST
Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Democrats Debate (all tags)
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(Comments closed here. New thread is here.)

The debate's over. Who won? What did you think?

Update: (Big Tent Democrat): I thought Hillary whupped him good. David Gergen thought it was even until Hillary's last answer, he thinks it was her best moment of the campaign. I don't see it. Go figure. Watching more of the pundits, they really have no idea what to say anymore. They really are useless. But who cares what they think?

Poll below.

< Hillary-Obama Texas Debate: Live Blog I | Late Night: Post Debate Thread II >

Poll

Who Won the Debate
♦ Hillary Clinton 75%
♦ Barack Obama 15%
♦ Tie 9%

Votes: 132
Results | Other Polls

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    Texas Post-Debate Live Thread | 202 comments (202 topical)
    No one "whupped" anyone. (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Compound F on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:25 PM EST
    are you serious?  It didn't happen.  This was muzzle to muzzle, no one won.

    Well (4.50 / 8) (#82)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:15:49 PM EST
    You convinced me.

    Obama's was UNBELIEVABLE tonight.

    I ESPECIALLY loved his Kumbaya Schtick. LOOOOVED it.

    And his energy early in the debate was AMAZING!!!!!!

    and the flip flop on meeting with Castro? BRILLLIANT!!!!!

    Oh and on health care, INCREDIBLE!!!!!!

    You are so right. OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA!

    Sheesh. Can you have an original thought?

    Parent

    heh (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:17:40 PM EST


    Parent
    Did I just have my posts deleted? (none / 0) (#176)
    by sar75 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:48:00 PM EST
    For pointing out that Compound did not try to convince you that Obama was brilliant, that he just disagreed and said it was a draw?

    Parent
    Not by me (none / 0) (#179)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:48:57 PM EST


    Parent
    I deleted (none / 0) (#187)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:29 PM EST
    comments that were sniping and insults between commenters and Big Tent. This thread is about the debate and insults and personal attacks and conversations will be deleted.

    Parent
    I am not going to insult this site.,. (none / 0) (#220)
    by Compound F on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:13:49 PM EST
     

    Parent
    Obama has (none / 0) (#146)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:37:41 PM EST
    charisma that Clinton doesn't. Must be something wrong with Obama.

    He's won 11 contests in a row. Must be something wrong with Obama.

    He's as poised as she is, and as competent. Obama's unity message could be the thing that breaks the back of the republican party, and is more shrewd than a litany of qualifications, which of course both of them possess.


    Parent

    This is about the debate (none / 0) (#172)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:47:01 PM EST
    Jeralyn just warned about going off topic.

    Parent
    It's really up to the voters now (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Paladin on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:16:31 PM EST
    We're probably talking about a small percentage of voters who are undecided.  Did either one sway that group?  That's the question.

    Here is a Meyers-Briggs like (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:22:36 PM EST
    assessment of the personalities of Clinton, Obama, and McCain:

    SLATE

    She did a great job (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by riddlerandy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:22:55 PM EST
    it will be a nice swan song

    I loved Clinton's last response (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:24:07 PM EST
    but it wasn't enough in a debate in which he was as poised as she was. I don't see her capturing momentum in the wake of 10 losses in a row.

    Her xerox line was desperate, to say the least, as is the ridiculous non-controversy over so-called plagiarism. Really, the low point of the debate.

    Bottom line, Obama takes Texas and probably Ohio as well.

    You are dreaming (none / 0) (#121)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:29:37 PM EST


    Parent
    Obama's (none / 0) (#185)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:04 PM EST
    beating Clinton in her own home demographics. Why? Not because Clinton is a pushover, a poor speaker, but because he's running a better campaign with a unity strategy that's more motivating than what Clinton's offering.

    I'd vote for Clinton, and I'd vote for Obama. Neither of them are the genuine populist I'd like to see in the driver's seat, so I really don't get the bitterness and antagonism of a choice between two largely similar candidates.

    I really don't get criticizing someone for having charisma, or inspiring stadiums full of potential voters. I see the unity strategy as a way to undercut McCain's independent appeal.

    Parent

    Tomorrow at work, I'll hear people (none / 0) (#188)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:29 PM EST
    laughing about "change you can xerox".  Bet on it.

    Parent
    Agreed... (none / 0) (#141)
    by ROK on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:35:56 PM EST
    An average closer does not win a debate. Even if it did, it won't give her that bounce...

    Parent
    Did we see the same debate? (5.00 / 4) (#117)
    by goldberry on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:26:03 PM EST
    I don't think he has improved at all.  And this is where his immaturity is most obvious: his answers ramble.  He does not come from a "center point".  It's like having to write an essay on a book you didn't finish.  
    She, on the other hand, read the book, discussed it with her colleagues and thought about it until she understood what the author was saying and could point out where the author could have improved.  
    It's not experience exactly. It is mindfulness.  No, that's not the right word.  It is like being "centered", knowing what the boundaries and parameters are and how they relate to each other.  She has it, he doesn't.  
    There is no comparison.  
    If he weren't the token male, it's hard to imagine how they would have ended up on the same stage.

    My reaction (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by BethanyAnne on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:38:10 PM EST
    will probably be deleted as soon as I post it.  I've been hanging around for a few days, and it looks to me like Big Tent Democrat deletes anything negative towards Mrs. Clinton.  But, I'll still try.

    I've only gotten to see some clips on YouTube, but the linked clip at the top of this thread has me furious.  When she talks about the soldier with half of a face left, I just get livid.  That's the war SHE authorized.  A vote she won't apologize for.  She chose to trust W.  And every time she mentions the pain that that mistake has caused, I just get mad all over again. The time for caring and for that vaunted experience of hers to shine through was when that vote was before her.

    I hope this is not trolling.  But that's honestly what I think, and I've tried to be civil.

    Why would I delete this? (3.00 / 2) (#155)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:42:01 PM EST
    You made an argument respectfully.

    Next time, leave out the attack on me.

    Parent

    Do you honestly think Obama would have voted (3.00 / 2) (#166)
    by Angel on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:45:12 PM EST
    NO if he had been in the senate at the time?  The vote was 99-1.  And the senators were voting based on many things, not just trusting Dubya.  The mood of the country at the time was very fragile and I can understand their votes even though I disagreed at the time as well.  We'll never know what "intelligence" they had or did not have; we are not privy to everything they were told, lies or not.  And for the record, Obama has voted to keep funding the war along with most of the other Democrats in the senate.  So if he is so opposed to war then why the votes to extend funding, etc.?  And I find that you must have a very hard heart to not believe that Hillary Clinton would be concerned about a maimed soldier. Get over your hatred.

    Parent
    The vote was 77-23 (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:08:23 PM EST
    not 99-1.

    And yes, it is pretty clear how Obama would have voted. No.

    Parent

    i delete most of the comments (1.50 / 2) (#215)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:08:00 PM EST
    on these threads. I don't tolerate insults and I don't respond to them. I just zap them and the sniping that follows.

    Your observation, like Big Tent says, is fine.

    Parent

    Fact Check (1.00 / 1) (#186)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:13 PM EST
    Clinton, along with 76 other senators, voted to authorize UN inspectors in Iraq to lok for WMD, with war AS A LAST RESORT.  Perhaps you have forgotten how the WHOLE COUNTRY was giving BUsh whatever he wanted after 9/11, but the authorization was NOT one to launch a war.  She has said, over and over, that she voetd the way she did given the evidence she had at the time, and PERSONAL ASSURANCES from the White House that they weren't going to attack Iraq.  Edwards voted for it, too, btw - not that anyone seems to reember THAT.  How many ways dos she have to say it was the wrong thing to do, and she'll get the troops out ASAP if president??  

    How can you COMPLETELY ignore EVERYTHING else this woman has done for this country, especially the poor, women, children, and yes, VETERANS!!  SHe has been on the forefront of getting them the care they need/deserve, getting the troops the armor they need?

    AND - as I have said - OBAMA HAS VOTED TO FUND THE WAR EVER SINCE HE GOT INTO THE SENATE!!!!  HE stumped for Joe Lieberman, his mentor, and one of the BIGGEST warmongers in the Senate, AGAINST the ANTI-War Democratic candidate in CT.  Obama has ALSO said that he doesn't know HOW he would have voted - it's easy from the cheap seats, and while I am, and have been, completely opposed to the war in Iraq, context is important.  Just sayin.

    Parent

    I also thought it was close to a tie (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:42:55 PM EST
    I thought that Clinton won the first half, Obama the second half, and was pretty much a draw, except for the very last question, where it appeared Obama didn't realize it was his last statement and Hillary hit a home run.  (I'm curious about the comments that "but what I've been through is nothing compared to that of ordinary Americans" is from Bill's campaign).

    All in all, I'd give a slight edge to Hillary, most fairly close to a draw.  Unfortunately for her, it may not be enough to counter the trends.

    The best part, imho, is that the moderators asked consistently good questions (as some other blogger wrote, see what happens when you get rid of the Blitzers and the Russerts?!).  And that Obama and Clinton seemed pretty amiable toward each other.

    Thankfully, they do realize that they are on the same team in the big picture.  (And there were sure a lot more polite than some of their supporters are to each other).

    He got to answer the question first. Why are (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:48:53 PM EST
    some people acting like he had no chance for rebuttal. The question was what is the biggest challenge they have faced. He could have answered anyway he wanted to. His answer was similar to the type that he made fun of John Edwards for.

    She brought the house down and the fact that it was a healing moment for the two of them should speak volumes to Obama supporters who think she'll destroy the party in order to get power.

    The party means more to her than the Presidency and I'm so damn angry at people who can't see that.

    Not meaning you at all DC wonk. Just a general vent at the media and blogs.

    Parent

    Thanks Teresa (5.00 / 1) (#225)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:14:25 PM EST
    You're right.  It does speak volumes to those Obama supporters who think she'd destroy the party to get power.  (I also hope the debate convinces some Clinton supporters that Obama does indeed stand for Dem values and is not an empty suit).

    I absolutely loved her answer to the SuperDelegate question (her answer was a dismissal with a wave of her hand and the comment "it'll all be settled before then"), and it also made me think she's been terribly mis-served by her advisers (her campaign shouldn't have touched that issue leading up to Wisconsin).

    The party means more to her than the Presidency and I'm so damn angry at people who can't see that.

    I agree with you 100% on that one.  

    Parent

    If he didn't recognize that as the (none / 0) (#189)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:37 PM EST
    pre-prepped closing statement question, then he wasn't prepared.  That is another lost point for him.

    Parent
    debate (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by JakeB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:49:29 PM EST
    Sorry folks. I love Hil but she's running for vice-president.

    Impressive win for Obama (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:56:56 PM EST
    Matched her on the substance. Seemed commanding, presidential, while she seemed to just try to gush out all manner of standard lines.

    She totally blew the CiC question - managed do discuss why she could be CiC for two minutes without even mentioning the military!

    She made a terrible stumble with that stupid Xerox comment.

    But she did show great class in that closing valedictory - a bit over the top perhaps to say how honored she was to be on the same stage with Barack Obama. But very classy none the less.

    This race is over.

    Nice Tano. I have never not voted (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:04:50 PM EST
    before but you sure tempt me to do so.

    Parent
    A win for Obama; a loss in the fight (none / 0) (#222)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:13:50 PM EST
    for UHC.

    Parent
    Gee (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by Shawn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:56:59 PM EST
    Her comparing UHC to SSA and Medicare is not a good thing. Those are budget busting programs that are poorly managed.

    Let me guess: you're one of those "Obama Republicans"?

    beat me to it (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by Nasarius on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:00:29 PM EST
    I was about to say "wow, that's revealing." Comparing universal health care to social security is exactly what she needed to do, although I thought she could be a bit more explicit, describing the public insurance plan with subsidies, etc.

    Parent
    Can mr knowitall tell me how (none / 0) (#218)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:11:29 PM EST
    much of the SSA budget is waste??


    Parent
    SSA (none / 0) (#234)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:18:14 PM EST
    is probably the absolutely least wasteful program that the Feds run.

    FWIW, I thought her comparison to SSA was a smart comparison.  This is an issue I agree with Hillary on.

    Parent

    This says it all right there (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:57:37 PM EST
    Her comparing UHC to SSA and Medicare is not a good thing. Those are budget busting programs that are poorly managed.

    Exactly the kind of anti-Democratic arguments I've had with Obama supporters on Dkos. You guys are not Democrats. If you are, I'm not.

    Exactly (none / 0) (#213)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:06:49 PM EST
    I realized if the folks that make such arguments are Democrats (the ones above, the Monica in a blue dress, the Whitewater "scandal" etc), then I'm not....

    And this is why I am an independent, not a Democrat.

    Parent

    Well, other Teresa, I'm still a Democrat but (none / 0) (#226)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:14:31 PM EST
    I will fight any person who calls himself a Democrat and makes statements like that. Can you believe we have reached the point where people are kidding themselves this much? Social Security and Medicare are bad? They are so confused. They need to be voting for McCain.

    Parent
    It's true. (5.00 / 1) (#231)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:17:13 PM EST
    They've really blurred the line between Republicans and Democrats...something I never would have thought could happen during this election cycle....I really thought this election would be about showing our differences.

    However, I guess to beat Hillary means you have to do it?  

    It's pretty sad.

    Parent

    excuse me (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by hitchhiker on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:58:11 PM EST
    but the silly season arrived the day people started using the word "mania" in their screen names.

    The claim that he has better judgment is strange, especially given that he votes along with her on Iraq and many other issues.  He made a speech in a campaign he had no chance of losing to a constituency that wanted to hear it, and now that speech is supposed to be --all by itself--the evidence of political courage and good judgment.  Sorry, but it's just hope that makes you believe McCain doesn't have more authority with independents than Barack on this subject.  

    This is old ground, however, and you aren't looking to be convinced.

    The Xerox line didn't work (4.50 / 2) (#41)
    by cygnus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:20 PM EST
    But it was worth it. Obama got rattled big time.  His next few answers were really bad.

    Still - (4.20 / 5) (#116)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:25:33 PM EST
    If HE had said something like that, people would have laughed - I bet you.  She is held to a TOTALLY different standard that he is.  He can attack her left and right, making negative statements abt her character, and when she retaliates, everyone freaks out,a nd says she shouldn't have done that.  I think it is the sexist double standard with which many women deal on a regular basis.  IMHO, that is.

    Parent
    The Xerox worked (3.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Prabhata on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:08:44 PM EST
    The audience may not have liked it, but it worked because the line rattled Obama.

    Parent
    IT probably worked with the TV (3.66 / 3) (#53)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:09:14 PM EST
    audience too.

    Parent
    it worked with me (none / 0) (#75)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:35 PM EST
    I thought it was good, but like others, I think it wasn't worth it.

    Parent
    Tomorrow I'll hear people talk (none / 0) (#165)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:44:44 PM EST
    about the Xerox line and those last minutes.  They were kickin!

    Parent
    Her final statement (4.33 / 6) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:55:12 PM EST
    is the story of the night and will get all the attention.

    Do you agree with CNN that it was (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:57:59 PM EST
    her "valedictory"?  

    To me, that shows unbelievable media bias, far beyond their charge.  And the followup comments keep calling the end of the campaign -- "she is desperate," etc.  Now Cooper claims that she said it.  Now Gergen think she was about "old themes," and she was "hectoring."  Idiots.  And I fear it is worse on MSNBC but can't bring myself back there again.

    Parent

    It is very clear (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by themomcat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:02:41 PM EST
    that CNN and MSNBC have "anointed" Obama as the Democratic nominee and will not criticize him. I have stopped watching most of the news channels, opting for the Food Network and Soap Operas instead.

    Parent
    MSNBC clearly (none / 0) (#81)
    by coigue on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:15:42 PM EST
    CNN - I disagree.

    Parent
    Josh Marshall said she used (none / 0) (#10)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:56:52 PM EST
    Bill C's 1992 words in her final answer.
    Is that right?

    Parent
    Josh Marshall (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by themomcat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:59:25 PM EST
    is pro Obama and made it clear he does not like Clinton.

    Parent
    I understand that perfectly. (none / 0) (#21)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:01:47 PM EST
    I'd like to know what remarks he is comparing with.
    I can't believe she was quoting Bill C. verbatim.

    Parent
    that may be so, but it doesn't answer a legitimate (none / 0) (#27)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:03:08 PM EST
    question. I thought it sounded familiar.

    (disclosure: I support the Democratic nominee)

    Parent

    Iraq vets? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:05:11 PM EST
    Seriously doubt it.

    Josh is making stuff up again.

    Parent

    No the whatever happens we will be alright (none / 0) (#43)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:36 PM EST
    lines

    Parent
    Um (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:10:04 PM EST
    Ok. Hard to imagine that is an original line to anybody.

    I think it would be petty to make something of it and Mr. Plagiarism does not matter seems like a bad candidate for that.

    Parent

    It wouldn't the media darling (none / 0) (#68)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:12:15 PM EST
    it would be the media darling's surrogates in the media.

    Parent
    How sad. (none / 0) (#76)
    by Compound F on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:42 PM EST
    Mr. Plagiarism?  You stoop to that?

    Parent
    Its been said the candidates don't want (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:19:01 PM EST
    BTD as a supporter.

    BTD is a nominal Obama supporter. `I think he wants a candidate who is part Obama and part Clinton.  

    Parent

    Me too, actually. Wouldn't that be a heck of a (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:21:40 PM EST
    candidate?

    Parent
    Think FDR and WJC. (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:24:49 PM EST
    I would be happy with a unity ticket BTW

    Parent
    None of the instances (hers or his) (none / 0) (#96)
    by LiberallyDebunked on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:19:34 PM EST
    fit the definition of plagiarism. We should try to use accurate language when we discuss things.

    Parent
    "fired up" (none / 0) (#144)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:36:51 PM EST
    ... is not an original line.

    It is a chant that has been used for decades in the labor and community organizing movements.

    "Fired up!  Ready to Go!" is something that people have been using at protests and rallies for years.

    Parent

    "All Fired Up" (none / 0) (#212)
    by xjt on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:05:21 PM EST
    Was a Pat Benatar song in the 80s. That phrase is used all the time.

    Parent
    My mother says something (none / 0) (#162)
    by kredwyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:44:25 PM EST
    similar...

    "No matter what happens, everything will be okay."

    Parent

    Sounds like the lyric of some (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:09:56 PM EST
    rock song, but, how would I know.  I only listen to classical music.

    Parent
    It is familiar (none / 0) (#115)
    by vigkat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:25:24 PM EST
    It is something I've heard Edwards say a couple of times, including in his "suspension of campaign" speech.

    Parent
    just got an email from the campaign: (none / 0) (#192)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:54:03 PM EST

    * Sen. Obama is running on words and promises but tonight said he opposed lifting the Cuba embargo even though he said he was for doing so when he ran for the Senate in 2004.

    Parent
    Sure Josh. He visited a hospital for injured (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:01:32 PM EST
    Iraqi vets too.

    That final comment of hers was a classy swan song and I admit it made me tear up. Obama supporters need to realize that she could hurt his GE campaign and chose not to. She's a Democrat to the end.

    Gloria whatshername is an idiot. She says there is no difference on healthcare? That is the difference to me.

    Parent

    Yes, i agree completely (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:02:46 PM EST
    Health care is the defining difference.
    Obama just doesn't care about it, except as a talking point.


    Parent
    I worry that he (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:07:52 PM EST
    may actually believe himself, that his plan is as good in covering as many.  It just is not so, but if he goes forward, we really will not get good health care coverage.

    Parent
    Oh no, I am certain he does not. (none / 0) (#51)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:08:47 PM EST
    He is too educated to know otherwise.
    The logical inference is that he DOES NOT WANT UHC.
    In fact, UHC goes against his core principles---which do not belong to the Democratic Party.

    Parent
    I've concluded he thinks it (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:29 PM EST
    is too politically risky to talk about UHC with mandates, and he is probably correct.  

    Parent
    But he HAS talked about mandates! (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:16:20 PM EST
    He has ruled them out.
    It would be one thing if he were being cautious, but no, he's making sure that affordable universal insurance will not happen under him.

    Parent
    Obama has mandates for parents -- (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by jawbone on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:40:37 PM EST
    they must insure their children under his plan.

    I believe this was brought up in a debate, but I'm not sure. I've sure thought about it!

    BTW, to Gloria Berger(?), or whichever Gloria was on CNN, who has health insurance I am quite sure--the differences in the two plans mean nothing because she probably doensn't even know someone for whom having universal healthcare is, well, and existential issue.

    Like cancer victims who have no health insurance--and some of them aren't cancer patients bcz they can't afford being patients until it's too late.

    Parent

    Well, yes, he's a hypocrite too. (none / 0) (#160)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:43:01 PM EST
    but mandates for healthy young adults are essential.
    Period.


    Parent
    That must be his campaign's (none / 0) (#118)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:26:09 PM EST
    read on what the likely voters want.  He may be correct, as many people have employer group health plan or medicare.  Younger people with a good income don't think they'll ever get sick, or, if they do, they'll wade through it.  

    Parent
    So you're agreeing with me (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:28:12 PM EST
    that Obama is taking UHC off the table for political gain?
    Of course young healthy people don't want to buy insurance---that's the reason for mandates!

    Parent
    There are so many (none / 0) (#128)
    by vigkat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:32:17 PM EST
    facets to his performance, it's difficult to point to one single moment defining his position on a particular issue.  It's all very fluid and vague.  That's what I'm seeing.  The blank screen.

    Parent
    Average people's problems (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Shawn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:03:39 PM EST
    are greater than "the hits I've been taking"? Is that the line he's talking about? I noticed that Obama used "working harder for less", which was a staple of Clinton's '92 speeches and "good jobs at good wages", which was Michael Dukakis's semi-official slogan.

    Parent
    There's already a diary (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:53 PM EST
    up about this over at Orange Obama, based solely on JMM's quote---no, like, evidence, of course.

    Parent
    The Politico has evidence (none / 0) (#210)
    by LiberallyDebunked on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:03:15 PM EST
    of a similarity to something Edwards said and Marshall has the test of the Bill Clinton line that was similar as well.

    Parent
    she stole (none / 0) (#33)
    by Nasarius on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:04:18 PM EST
    The "no matter what happens, I'm going to be fine" line from Edwards. Dunno about the rest. It certainly sounded genuine to me.

    Parent
    MSNBC said Edwards (none / 0) (#196)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:55:16 PM EST
    They said it was John Edwards who said we will be fine. I can not read the thread below so someone else might have mentioned it.

    Parent
    obama won (4.20 / 5) (#59)
    by Turkana on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:10:13 PM EST
    because the hairpieces say so. just as bush "tied" gore in their first debate.

    The talking heads are stupid (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:01 PM EST
    I expect Hillary to get a small bounce out of this.

    Parent
    Stop!! (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:14:41 PM EST
    I'm sick, and making me laugh just makes me start coughing!!!  :-)

    Parent
    Not really (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:18:27 PM EST
    I do not think it will work that way now.

    Parent
    i'd love to be proven wrong (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Turkana on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:23:54 PM EST
    but i think you overestimate the voters.

    Parent
    Oh Obama will probably win (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:50 PM EST
    But ths debate helped Hillary as most debates have.

    Parent
    Oh yeah.. btw, some Orange (4.66 / 3) (#71)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:12:42 PM EST
    Obamacon was using the W. standard for Obama: "He hasn't made any gaffes yet".

    Parent
    Olbermann thinks Hillary's last comment (4.00 / 2) (#60)
    by ivs814 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:10:58 PM EST
    is a signal that she was raising the white flag of surrender.  What's up with that?  These pundits are real idiots.

    I dunno (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:17:55 PM EST
    but a few have said it.

    Why? Gawd only knows.

    It actually does not hurt Hillary so it just sounds weird.

    Parent

    Totally... (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:19:19 PM EST
    Drank the Kool Aide.  I cannot believe how these "journalists" don't even TRY for the appearance of neutrality anymore!  WHat the heck happened to journalistic ethics?

    And Olbermann, particularly, was hard for me.  I thought he was the Edward R. Murrow of our generation, but sadly, no.  Just like any of those peeps at Fox Noise, only on the left.

    Parent

    CNN: It was her "valedictory" (none / 0) (#134)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:34:20 PM EST
    I am so disgusted.  I did not hear that at all -- but that's what the media wanted to hear, so that must be what it was.  Fools, all of them, and even Gergen going along with that groupthink tonight.

    How one can see that, after her two hours of clearly being a fighting candidate . . . gosh, she must have made up her mind during the last commercial to just give up?  Fools, all of them.

    Parent

    I think Hillary did pretty well (4.00 / 4) (#79)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:15:08 PM EST
    I liked how she included Kosovo and Serbia when discussing foreign policy.  To me it was a great reminder of the wide range of foreign policy issues a President must always keep their pulse on.  And I'm constantly impressed on how well she shines on healthcare.  She is able to bring the passion home there.  

    And a question - Obama referred to "Spanish surnames."  Is it just me or was that sort of a faux-pas?  Just asking.  Not trying to be ridiculous.

    Clinton won (4.00 / 1) (#135)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:34:50 PM EST
    I definitely think that Clinton won this debate.

    But with that said, I don't think that she completely dominated the debate, and I don't think that Obama was bad.

    In my opinion, Obama had to really lose this debate for it to really matter, and that didn't happen.

    Also... I find it quite funny that people think that because Hillary is a better debater, that she is more qualified to be President.  I have long said that Hillary is a better debater.  But I am pretty sure that winning made for tv debates is not the only qualification for being President, or if it is even a qualification at all.

    Debates (none / 0) (#168)
    by Shawn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:45:50 PM EST
    But I am pretty sure that winning made for tv debates is not the only qualification for being President, or if it is even a qualification at all.

    The '04 Bush campaign sends you their love.


    Parent

    To the extent that (none / 0) (#180)
    by hitchhiker on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:49:12 PM EST
    it means you understand issues well enough to talk off the top of your head about them, I think it does reflect a necessary qualification for the job.

    She's good in debates because she's been thinking about so many aspects of the government for so long; she doesn't have to meander all over the map trying to say something.  

    All other things being equal, I'd rather have a president who has as much background as possible.

    Parent

    Some mediocre movies... (3.66 / 3) (#1)
    by magster on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:53:54 PM EST
    are saved by a great ending.

    I don't think Obama appreciated that he needed to make a closing statement until it was too late and Clinton got a standing O.

    I thought he was winning, but the last impression is the lasting impression.

    That standing O for Clinton was (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:55:03 PM EST
    wonderful and deserved.  She won tonight.

    Parent
    She did (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by vigkat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:09:29 PM EST
    And I am proud of her.  I cannot imagine the patience and endurance and self-restraint and moderation it took to carry on with dignity in this particular situation.  I probably would have slapped him somewhere along the way.

    Parent
    she won on... (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by jor on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:31:05 PM EST
    ... the ending. Especially in comparison to obama's which was a ramble.

    Good ending impression.

    Parent

    I don't (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by muffie on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:35:18 PM EST
    think Obama realized that was the last question.  It sounded like he asked someone "is that it?" after Hillary's standing O.  

    Parent
    The spinning begins (3.66 / 3) (#2)
    by ivs814 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:54:45 PM EST
    I don't know what debate the CNN panel watched but they obviously can't help themselves.  They love Obama and he is always given a pass.

    She obviously won.  

    No Kidding. (none / 0) (#14)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:58:08 PM EST
    For some reason, I have been watching these bozos on CNN.  I haven't the FOGGIEST what debate they were watching.  And I am VERY frustrated that Clinton was not given as much time as Obama, as ALWAYS.  He was allowed to talk ad nauseum, but whenever she tries to make her point, she gets interrupted.  AND, she did NOT get to rebut Obama attacking her on judgment!!!

    Parent
    It's exhausting (3.66 / 3) (#7)
    by Kensdad on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:56:20 PM EST
    to watch Obama who is clearly not as qualified to be president as Hillary.  Much of what he has to say seems to be lifted from elsewhere and his signature issue of working with the other side to end the bickering in Washington is total b.s.  the republicans don't want to work with the dems (just listen to limbaugh today about how if mccain has learned anything from the NYT flap it is that you can't trust the dems.)  i want a president who will fight to reverse the damage of the bush administration and the republican party.  not someone who will negotiate with the republicans who are about to be vanquished into minority status.

    Exactly Kinsdad (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by peon on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:21:40 PM EST
    This is my main beef with Obama. On most issues they seem to be in the same a ballpark, which is a moderate democrat park. I am angry at Hillary for being too cooperative with Bush on the war and think anyone who supported the war is not fit to be president. Unfortunately in my book Obama's record is no different, despite a few speeches when he was running for senate. We all know candidates lie to get elected. All the candidates that had principled stances on the war are not in the running.
    Getting back to my main beef (sorry when I think about the war I get angry) with Obama, Kinsdad says it well this tiresome stuff about being bipartisan. Being bipartisan is something Rpublicans will never do. They can even tolerate moderate Republicans and have purged the party of them. I want a Democrat that realizes this is a fight.

    Parent
    Hillary was outstanding - Obama was unfocused (3.66 / 3) (#34)
    by Prabhata on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:04:34 PM EST
    It was Hillary's night.  She demonstrated how she may not be a great orator with a teleprompter, but she takes no back seat to Obama when presenting her ideas impromptu.
    BTW (3.66 / 3) (#62)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:13 PM EST
    Keith Olbermann is totally missing this. He must not be watching the same debate I am.

    Kool aid drinkers all.

    Remember Obama won the pre-Super Tuesday (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:17:03 PM EST
    debate too according to them.

    Parent
    count me as gone from countdown (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by hellothere on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:31:25 PM EST
    and probably won't return. i have lost respect for keith.

    Parent
    About the Next Debate... (3.66 / 3) (#77)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:54 PM EST
    OK, I am boycotting MSNBC.  I have found their constant bias for Obama, and exceedingly negative coverage of Clinton distasteful to say the least.  BUT - it is the enabling of not only sexist, but misogynistic statements, made abt Clinton that have made me decide not to watch it again.  I'm not just talking abt David Shuster essentially calling Hillary a pimp, and Chelsea a whore, though that was pretty darn bad.  Not even all of the Chris Matthews stupidity, though that was WAY up there.  Or Tucker Carlson.  Oh, wait - yes, it is a COMBINATION of all of this - that they continually allow sexist comments and attacks on Clinton.  But the clincher was this guy Roger Stone they had on, and his 527 organization against Clinton.  MediaMatters.org has the actual t-shirt the group sells.  Suffice it to say, it is a misogynistic acronym.  And they had him on TWICE recently.  They have gone beyond the pale, in my opinion.  (And I say this as someone who was a STAUNCH viewer of Olbermann's show.  I have not watched him in a few weeks - his bias against Clinton, even going so far as to taunt her for her "self-proclaimed victory" in FL was insulting, though that was just one example out of too many.  The  VOTERS declared her the victor, not her!!)

    NBC/MSNBC seems to have a record of allowing comments to be said abt Clinton that would NEVER be tolerated for any other candidate.  CNN is getting there pretty fast, though (Bill Scheidefr is a jerk.  So is Carl Bernstein.  And Jeffrey Toobin.  And...).

    If it's the same T-shirt I'm thinking of, I can't (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:17:30 PM EST
    believe he had him on once much less twice. Disgusting.

    Parent
    Yep - (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:22:17 PM EST
    He was on Tucker Carlson twice.  Shocking.  What HAPPENED to that network!!

    Parent
    NOT the C-word one? I can't believe that (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:30:53 PM EST
    MSNBC would have sunk so low.  That is appalling.

    Parent
    'Fraid So... (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:33:18 PM EST
    Here's the link to the article at mediamatters.org: http://mediamatters.org/items/200802200009?f=h_latest

    Parent
    BTD, now you have to revise the intro (3.66 / 3) (#170)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:46:01 PM EST
    to this diary.  David Gergen says Obama was the dramatically better debater, but she would have done better if, according to Gergen and Cooper, she had only gone negative.

    Gloria Borger, of course, agrees and would like to talk about Obama's commanding body (language).  Jeffrey Toobin thinks that Obama is so much more comfortable in this setting so is ready to be our fearless leader, while Clinton just can't seem to get comfortable debating.

    Cooper and Gergen now think she is not running anymore.  And I'm not even getting into Donna Brazille, because it was bad enough when she was only a hack, but now she attempts emotional blackmail of my party.

    Well, make that my former party, pretty soon.  And my former cable channel, after I gave up on MSNBC.  That leaves Fox.  I can't do that, so it's back to HGTV and how to scrapbook (I didn't even know that was a verb until the other day, when I couldn't stand cable news and went channel-surfing.)

    Well (none / 0) (#183)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:50:13 PM EST
    I guess the MSNBC Debate has been cancelled.

    Parent
    This was an extraordinary ending (3.66 / 3) (#174)
    by ahazydelirium on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:47:32 PM EST
    She carried herself with such poise and dignity. Obama may have excellent speeches, but Hillary cannot be matched in these candid moments.

    And in shaking Obama's hand, saying how honored she was to be with him, she acknowledged the significance of this race and the extraordinary moment in history they are both part of.

    She certainly had far more class, as he made no mention of sexism in his running list of issues that divide the country.

    It's because of this side of her that I'm so emotionally invested in this. She makes me believe.

    she definitely (5.00 / 1) (#227)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:14:34 PM EST
    knows how to behave like a democrat: respectful, poised...definitely presidential.  And where this "swan song" crap is coming from is beyond me.  Picks up on the Plouffle crap about her needing to bow out.  She's still in there and fighting, and those of you who think otherwise need to pay closer attention.

    But, yeesh, did he jerk her chair out there at the end or what?  He seemed really ticked off about her getting that standing O.  From where I was sitting, the guy looked furious.

    I wonder what's going to be done with the Patrick stuff.  Isn't it pretty much proven that there have been more than two "shared" ideas, and that Obama has "shared" lots of other people's ideas, too?

    And I agree with (was it Ralph?  Frank?) who said people are going to be talking about that Xerox line tomorrow.  The talking heads might've thought it fell flat, but I've already had two emails from friends laughing their hineys off about it.

    Parent

    I wish Hillary hadn't done the (3.50 / 2) (#12)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:57:24 PM EST
    "change you can xerox" line. OTOH, I think Hillary won the night and gave a fantastic closing statement.

    I like that line, but then (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:59:27 PM EST
    I've been told here that I'm not a typical American, so what do I know?

    I want a fighter.  Them's fightin' words -- and, of course, they're not from anybody else's speech.

    Parent

    I Don't Get... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:02:49 PM EST
    Whywheneve she really CALLS him on stuff, she gets booed!  I didn't hear anybody booing him when he was talking abt his judgment!  Come on, already!

    And, EASY for him to say he was against the Iraq invasion (before he voted to FUND it) - HE wasn't under the gun for it!  Don't get me wrong - I was opposed to it from the beginning, too, but what I WISH these people would bring up is how he stumped for Joe Lieberman in CT AGAINST the ANTI-WAR Democratic candidate! What does THAT say abt Mr. Anti-Washington Insider Anti-War Hero??? And that he said he would unilaterally invade Pakistan!!

    Parent

    Oops (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:03:35 PM EST
    Sorry abt the run-on above.  I really can type!  Ahem.

    Parent
    Any time you get booed is bad (none / 0) (#18)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:01:26 PM EST
    that was predictable.

    Parent
    I saw it as bad bhavior (none / 0) (#37)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:05:06 PM EST
    by the audience, and I can guess which ones.  Or possibly oohing more than booing -- I've seen many a situation where you had to be there to understand just what that was.  Other evidence is, since an audience that boos is an audience lost, yet she got a standing O.

    I would say that we can wait to see what those there say it was -- but they're the msm, so we still will not know.  

    Parent

    The line fell flat also (none / 0) (#73)
    by magster on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:04 PM EST
    because it was obviously written for her in a debate about plagiarism.

    Parent
    Not helpful to her (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:02:55 PM EST
    I blame Penn for that line.

    But honestly, if Hillary gained from the California debate which was REALLY even, she will DEFINITELY gain from this one.

    I think the Media is funny. They can only read from their scripts.

    I think she definitely helped herself as she always does in debates and this was a real good night for her.

    And she has another one in 4 days.

    The Media is always behind on these things.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:05:00 PM EST
    This is where Hillary shines.

    Parent
    Every night (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:07:56 PM EST
    she should want a debate.

    Parent
    Truest statement of the campaign (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:10:05 PM EST
    made by anyone

    Parent
    This is what she wanted (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:12:22 PM EST
    in Wisconsin, but he wouldn't do it, and this is why.

    Parent
    I bet the same person (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:03:26 PM EST
    who gave her the kindergarten line gave her that one. Any ideas who in her campaign that might be?

    Parent
    It will be played negatively or positively (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by goldberry on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:04:49 PM EST
    It doesn't really matter.  What can they say about Hillary saying it other than her timing was off?  On the other hand, discussing the line in any context is bad for Obama because the inauthentic meme gets propagated.
    If I were Obama's campaign, I wouldn't want the pundits to dwell on it.  It's like saying loofah or falafel to a Bill O'Reilly stringer.  Not something that's going to make it into the Factor later on.

    Parent
    Clinton wins (3.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:55:17 PM EST
    Yeah, that was a great last answer.

    Who won? (3.00 / 2) (#9)
    by muffie on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:56:50 PM EST
    Clinton by a lot.

    However, I predict that the media fixates on her attack on Obama ("change you can xerox") -- her one weak moment.  Why discuss the issues when you can treat it all as a petty fight instead?

    nah (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:25 PM EST
    It was not THAT bad.

    Kind of silly to do that.

    Even for the Emdia. If they do fixate on it, I am not sure it really hurts her. I did not like it but that does not mean it might not work.

    Parent

    I can see why (3.00 / 2) (#11)
    by themomcat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:57:16 PM EST
    Obama doesn't want more debates. This is not his venue. He lost his train of thought, or so it appeared. Or was it because he agreed with Clinton and needed to change the subject? Clinton is a strong debater and is always well prepared. She hardly needs notes. Obama on the other hand was furiously scribbling and did not look at all comfortable. While Clinton was smiling and relaxed as he spoke and even as she was taking an occasional  note. She has a better command of the subject matter.

    The notetaking was distracting (none / 0) (#24)
    by magster on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:02:47 PM EST
    but there was a stretch where she was overly emotive and distracting when he was talking.  I don't agree that Hillary's body language was confident and dignified at many points in the debate.

    Parent
    Interesting, as I saw him (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:06 PM EST
    looking away, looking up, almost rolling his eyes.

    Parent
    It's gotta be so hard (none / 0) (#66)
    by magster on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:49 PM EST
    to sit there for 2 hours with all that nervous energy and a pulse of 150++.

    Parent
    Hillary won..and CNN declares Barack the new Jesus (3.00 / 2) (#19)
    by ShelbyK on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:01:30 PM EST
    Hillary was poised, polished, and presidential. She had some fantastic lines, with the last answer being my personal favorite. You could tell she was more comfortable tonight, and the audience really connected with her message. (Which is notable, because Austinites, especially UT students, are hardcore Obama supporters.)

    BUT, the big thing...why is CNN declaring her candidacy dead and saying she did badly? What the hell are they watching? I was a CNN loyalist until just now, but the sexism oozing from the screen has turned me WAAY off..

    that's the script (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:03:48 PM EST
    They said the same thing in the pre-Super Tuesday debate.

    They are actually quite funny.

    Parent

    It's the kind of thing (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:07:59 PM EST
    that happens when there's an upset in a sports game.  The media isn't prepared for the upset, so has all kinds of material for the predicted winner, but nothing for the other team that actually won.

    It's pretty comical to watch in sports.

    When they're doing it while talking about my country and my future, I feel the bile rise in my throat.

    Parent

    Moderators were very biased (3.00 / 2) (#32)
    by ivs814 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:04:15 PM EST
    Campbell Brown kept interrupting her and would allow her to rebut some of Obama's distortions.  It was very annoying and frankly, disrespectful.  And it seemed most questions were posed to her and then he was allowed to expand on and on.

    was Obama interrupted even once? (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Nasarius on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:09:40 PM EST
    Hillary got the "please shut up" blather from the moderators four or five times, I think. I don't remember Obama getting interrupted even once. Hm. I miss the Dodd Clock that showed how long each person talked.

    Parent
    Correction, would NOT allow her to rebut (none / 0) (#39)
    by ivs814 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:05:27 PM EST


    Parent
    Obama going on and on was not helpful (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Prabhata on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:07:31 PM EST
    Obama seemed lost when he kept talking in circles

    Parent
    I find I am zoning when he goes on (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:09:05 PM EST
    and on, I get to a point where I can't follow it unless maybe I start diagramming it.

    Parent
    Aha! (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:12:00 PM EST
    Maybe that's what he's doing when he writes on his pad.  He's bored himself and has to diagram out his answer.  :-)

    Parent
    He's not a fluid speaker (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:12:19 PM EST
    without a teleprompter or a stadium size crowd of his supporters.

    Parent
    You mean when he's using his own (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:25 PM EST
    words and thoughts, he's not fluid.
    That really inspires hope in me. ..ugh.


    Parent
    Sometimes it seemed like he wanted (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:17:37 PM EST
    someone to cut him off.

    Parent
    Exactly. And I would bet that there are (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:01 PM EST
    great studies that are being done by scholars of gender and communication about these debates and how often that happens.  This is classic gendered treatment of women, per many studies already -- as I bet the media would think that Clinton interrupted!

    Parent
    Obama was asked to answer as "succinctly as (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by jawbone on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:48:44 PM EST
    possible" on a question about what the differences were between his economic plans and Hillary's.

    I don't think Obama can do "succinct."

    He kept going on and on and on, working in stump speech lines, finally gave a list of some things we said were differences, then went on and on again.  Not one word from the moderators.

    Then when Hillary answered, we was told by Campbell (?) that time was short and she had to finish up!

    The little woman is supposed to stay in the background, right? Grrrrrrrrrr.


    Parent

    Does Obama ever feel emotional (3.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:24:52 PM EST
    for me? I see him get angry when he is challenged but does he really care about us like I want him to? I want him to fight for me and I just don't see it.

    I will say, I thought he was very effective on his Iraq vs McCain argument.

    But... (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:31:30 PM EST
    Clinton NEVER got an opportunity to address that, or Obama's attack on her judgment.  It was a poorly moderated debate by Campbell-I-Hate-Smart-Women-Like-Hillary Brown, IMHO.

    Parent
    Agreed, I've seen that in classrooms (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:36:33 PM EST
    as the teacher, facing confrontation, retreats and gets all professorial.  It doesn't work well for me, but maybe his younger followers are too used to it.

    Parent
    Obama is popular because of the (none / 0) (#150)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:38:47 PM EST
    machine around him. Personally he is no more inspiring than Walter Mondale---who was a good politician, needless to say.

    Parent
    Guy over at NoQuarter calls him (none / 0) (#175)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:47:50 PM EST
    "McMondukakerry."

    Parent
    Now Hillary is accused of plagarism (1.00 / 1) (#194)
    by ivs814 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:54:57 PM EST
    by Olbermann, highlighting a story on Politico.com.  Her last comments allegedly resemble comments made by Edwards in December.  

    Oh brother.  The difference is she wasn't reading a speech written by Axlerod and then given to a former empty suit client.  He put those words in both of those empty suits.

    Without a script, Obama is not fluid or lucid. Sounds like they are really afraid that her last comment was a home run and they need to shout "cheater" at the top of their lungs.

    Olberman, Stewart, and Colbert (5.00 / 3) (#209)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:03:12 PM EST
    I don't watch any of them anymore.

    Three chord blues isn't plagiarism, Mr. Olberman.

    You can even put your stamp on a classic like "Twist and Shout."

    Passing yourself off as if you wrote "Twist and Shout."

    That's a problem.

    Keith is wretched.  His is the smugness that makes people hate liberals.

    Parent

    But Olbermann's ratings (none / 0) (#217)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:10:55 PM EST
    are continuing to increase.

    Polarization works for him too.

    Parent

    Oh I'm sure he's doing quite well (none / 0) (#223)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:14:08 PM EST
    About as well as O'Reilly was doing 4 years ago.


    Parent
    she's adopted (none / 0) (#219)
    by Nasarius on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:11:43 PM EST
    A lot of Edwards' rhetoric in the last few weeks. She explicitly quoted him once tonight. Anyway, as Josh Marshall demonstrates with his allegation that she cribbed the line from Bill, it's not a particularly novel sentiment.

    Parent
    Hard not to imagine (none / 0) (#6)
    by hitchhiker on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:56:12 PM EST
    how this season might have gone if she'd been able to bring that last few minutes' kind of soul into every single encounter.  

    She'd make a good president.

    Is Josh Marshall right? Did Hillary steal (none / 0) (#85)
    by LiberallyDebunked on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:16:56 PM EST
    Bill's words from 1992?

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/179590.php

    Is he? (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:20:01 PM EST
    who knows? Josh is a stickler about such things.

    he really was tough on Obama over the issue.

    Josh is hilarious, in full shill mode.

    He is really an embarrassment now.

    Parent

    It's amazing how the sides have hardened (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Paladin on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:23:28 PM EST
    in the past month or so.  I used to enjoy reading TPM, Kos, Huf, etc., but I avoid them now.  The hostility toward the Clintons is incredible.  They hate them almost as much as Bush's crew.

    Parent
    true (none / 0) (#161)
    by hitchhiker on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:44:19 PM EST
    This site, Digby, and theleftcoaster are places where you can read consistently fair analysis and get more than one perspective.  I keep wondering how some other places will recover their credibility when this is over . . . I know I'm going to be assuming bias and laziness in every post for a long time.

    Parent
    Yes, he is. I sent him an email about his obvious (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Angel on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:32:34 PM EST
    bias towards Obama and his hatred of Hillary.  He replied back to me and said that he wasn't an Obama supporter, much less an ardent one. I don't believe him.

    Parent
    yup, that is what he said to me. (none / 0) (#147)
    by hellothere on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:38:05 PM EST
    the second one i sent he ignored. i won't be reading him anymore.

    Parent
    Actually I've heard those words (none / 0) (#184)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:50:15 PM EST
    before, but not from Bill in '92.  Hillary has said pretty much the same thing before this year.


    Parent
    There just has to be a marital privilege. (none / 0) (#99)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:21:26 PM EST
    Look at all the long-married couples who finish each other's sentences.

    Parent
    For all we know, Hillary wrote Bill's stuff! (none / 0) (#193)
    by jawbone on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:54:41 PM EST
    I mean, he's damn good, but I can't believe they didn't together back then on his stuff, if they could do so (and there were phones way back then, ya know), and probably do so now.

    Parent
    Donna B. declares Obama was (none / 0) (#132)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:33:18 PM EST
    exceptional. BTD, you are wrong on this one. The media had lowered expectations for him and since he didn't bomb, he was exceptional.

    These are the media standards anyway.

    Amazingly, the media doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:35:33 PM EST
    get to determine the vote. I think people who actually watched the debate, and came in undecided, will come to a different decision than Donna "I love George Bush" Brazile.

    Parent
    s;he's on another planet (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:41:41 PM EST
    and watched a different debate than we all saw. She's gotten horrible.

    Parent
    She started horrible, always a hack (none / 0) (#182)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:49:40 PM EST
    and should not have been allowed as a commentator, considering her DNC position.

    And now that she has openly threatened the party, it is the DNC that should demand she go off the air.  But it won't, of course, because it is as ethically bankrupt as she is.  And it won't get my support ever, ever again.

    Parent

    Here's for your late night (none / 0) (#221)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:13:50 PM EST
    reading pleasure:

    ROBIN OBCARIAN PROFILE OF MICHELLE OBAMA

    Parent

    They declared he won (none / 0) (#163)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:44:30 PM EST
    in the California debate.Heck, I thought he tied that one.

    The expectations game favors Hillary in these things.

    People expect an ogre.

    That is why her attack on Obama was a mistake.

    Parent

    Clinton, McCain, and Iraq (none / 0) (#153)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:41:26 PM EST
    I still find it quite funny that Clinton tried to attack McCain for supporting the "wasteful" Iraq War.

    Can someone point out some significant differences in how Clinton and McCain have supported the war in Iraq?

    off topic (none / 0) (#159)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:43:00 PM EST
    don't try and hijack the thread. Responses will be deleted. This is about the debate.

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#171)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:46:12 PM EST
    Jeralyn... how is this off-topic?  

    Hillary made this point in the debate.

    This is a debate thread.

    I am not sure how discussing something that was said in the debate is off-topic.

    Parent

    not true (none / 0) (#204)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:58:47 PM EST
    Your question is: "Can someone point out some significant differences in how Clinton and McCain have supported the war in Iraq? "

    Nothing to do with the debate. No more time for this, sorry.

    Parent

    Yes, it is. (none / 0) (#224)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:14:10 PM EST
    Sorry Jeralyn, but I disagree with you.

    If Clinton is going to attack McCain, in the debate, for supporting the "wasteful" war in Iraq, then it is fair to ask how she is different, is it not?

    That is directly related to the debate that this post is about.

    I don't get it.

    Parent

    Did anyone notice (none / 0) (#173)
    by Lena on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:47:15 PM EST
    that in the midst of HRC's standing ovation at the end of the debate, BO says something to one of the moderators like "Is that it?" It looked like he was either trying to end the moment quickly, by getting up, or he was trying to stand up, maybe together with HRC, to make it look like the applause and ovation were just the typical end-of-debate reactions, for BOTH candidates, not just HRC.

    That was my gut reaction when I watched it live.

    the standing O was for both of them (none / 0) (#206)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:59:33 PM EST
    the debate was over.

    Parent
    The media fools, for all that they are that (none / 0) (#233)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:17:56 PM EST
    also kept calling it her standing O.

    Parent
    I can see Krugman (none / 0) (#191)
    by NJDem on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:54 PM EST
    having something to say about the health care debate tonight.

    I think (hope?) anyone who saw the debate and then heard the talking heads on cable realizes just how biased they are.

    And for those who think she was throwing in the white flag, let's just wait and see...after all, she does seem like someone who quits when things are down.  

    Her health care answers were great (none / 0) (#230)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:16:44 PM EST
    in getting down to specifics, at last, of what his plan would mean -- penalties at the door of the ER, etc.  And then Obama would not let Campbell-Brown end it, promised as usual to tie it up quickly but as usual could not do so . . . and then Clinton came right back and got the last word.  

    And everyone watching ought to cheer when Dem candidates refused to let a Republican-funded media face cut them off.

    Parent

    Good work (none / 0) (#200)
    by myed2x on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:57:25 PM EST
    I was worried throughout, it didn't seem like she was making any headway and might have even been losing, but her closer was great! I just hope one line equals more...

    I am proud (none / 0) (#208)
    by Baal on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:01:11 PM EST
    that we have two candidates of this caliber.

    You probably shouldn't accuse someone of plagiarizing a line when in the same debate you lift almost verbatim a line from your own husband's 1992 campaign.  Josh Marshall has details, and like him, I don't think it's that big a deal.

    I'm curious (none / 0) (#214)
    by wasabi on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:07:10 PM EST
    Did anyone get the same impression that I did about Obama's followups to Clinton's questions?  It seemed like he would say something to the effect of "there is not much difference between us on this", then add in how he will change washington to inact what Hillary suggested.  When she got the chance for a followup, she talked more policy differences.  Am I making this up?

    No, I see the same thing (none / 0) (#232)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:17:35 PM EST
    He consistently fuzzes out.

    Parent
    Last line (none / 0) (#238)
    by popsnorkle on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:27:21 PM EST
    I took the "we" in the last line as Clinton and Obama.

    MAYBE (none / 0) (#239)
    by sas on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:31:05 PM EST
    the party will be unified.  I'm not at all sure of that.

    Comments now closed here (none / 0) (#240)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:36:27 PM EST
    new thraad here.

    Xerox line scored for Hillary (none / 0) (#241)
    by diplomatic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:41:40 PM EST
    Contrary to what some of you have posted here about that "Change you can Xerox" line from Hillary --- it turns out that the CNN dial meter reaction for her was POSITIVE on that remark.

    Texas Post-Debate Live Thread | 202 comments (202 topical)