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Politics As Usual

By Big Tent Democrat

In their fierce defense of Barack Obama, his partisans sometimes go to great lengths to demonstrate, ironically, that he is just another politician. Josh Marshall does so with this silly plagiarism stuff, in pseudo attacking Hilary Clinton for using a line similar to something Bill Clinton said in 1992:
Just to be 100% clear, there's nothing in the least wrong with this. And it's a great line. But I think it shows the silliness of the 'plagiarism' charges based on a few borrowed lines. Politicians borrow good lines and catch-phrases. Happens all the time. There's nothing wrong with it.
Yes indeed. POLITICIANS do it all the time. I agree. And thanks for realizing Barack Obama is, shockingly, just another pol. Sort of been my point for a while now.

See the update on the flip.

Hillary plagiarizes from the world:

Laura Bush: 'Whatever happens will be fine' [El Paso Times, 5/19/00]

NBA Star Shaquille O'Neal: ‘We'll be fine, no matter what happens.’ [AP, 10/8/03]

Actress Lindsay Lohan: ‘No matter what happens, we're going to be fine.’ [AP, 4/19/07]

Former Redskin Dexter Manley: 'Whatever happens, I'm going to be fine.' [Washington Post, 7/26/98]

Former Redskin Gus Frerotte: 'I look forward to whatever happens. We're going to be fine.' [Washington Times, 12/22/98]

Notre Dame football player Tom Zbikowski: 'Whatever happens, we're going to be fine back there.' [Notre Dame football player Tom Zbikowski, 4/22/07]

Angels GM Bill Stoneman: 'Whatever happens, I'm going to be fine.' [Los Angeles Times, 2/22/03]

Former Giant Christian Peter: 'And whatever happens, I'm going to be fine.' [Asbury Park Press, 1/29/01]

Chicago Cub Larry Rothschild: 'I'm not worried about that. Whatever happens, I'm going to be fine.' [St. Petersburg Times, 4/1/01]

Diamondback Edgar Gonzalez: 'Whatever happens, I’ll be fine because I’m in the big leagues.' [Edgar Gonzalez, Diamondbacks, 5/2/07]

Hockey player Richard Hamula: 'Whatever happens I'll be fine with but hopefully I can still stick around here.' [Richard Hamula, hockey player, 9/20/02]

Leonard Hamm, interim commissioner for the Baltimore City Police Department: ‘Whatever happens, I’m going to be fine.’ [Baltimore Afro-American, 11/19/04]

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    Silly Season? Is that you Karl? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by ineedalife on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:49:02 AM EST
    I know the debate was in Texas and both candidates were trying to sprinkle in Texas references and language. But when asked to deflect the plagiarism charge Obama went with George Bush's defense of the AWOL charges. It is "silly season". Isn't that going a bit too far?

    I know Obama draws on Ronald Reagan for inspiration. But in his time of need drawing from George Bush is very revealing.

    I saw a poll yesterday (IVR) that said 22% of Obama voters in Texas intend to vote Republican in the fall. Was Obama talking in code to these people?  

    Is that poll online? (none / 0) (#5)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:50:39 AM EST
    Can you link it?

    Parent
    pollster.com (none / 0) (#12)
    by ineedalife on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:15:04 AM EST
    I have to learn how to insert links. Go to pollster.com. They have yesterday's IVR poll with Hillary up 50-45. Follow links to IVR site to description of poll details.
    Scroll down to General Election section.

    Also for other anectodal evidence go to republicansforobama. They give detailed instructions on how to vote TWICE for Obama. They also reassure Republicans that can still vote for McCain in the fall AGAINST Obama after voting for him in the primary.


    Parent

    Confessions of an HTML idiot (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ellie on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:35:39 AM EST
    Here's the quick version:

    Highlight the statement, text or info and click the relevant button above the text window (where you type your post). Wait a moment and presto, bang-oh, your browser will refresh to the required format.

    Highlighting your words and clicking the quotation marks button does this in your final post:

    I have to learn how to insert links

    Highlighting your words and clicking the chain link button (between U and the envelope buttons) links to the URL you paste in the window. In the following, I used pollster.com. (I didn't know what the IVR poll was.)

    I have to learn how to insert links

    Being something of an expert on idiocy myself == I'm a lifelong method idiot -- I was typing out my HTML by hand for way too long before thinking, "Hmmm, I wonder if those buttons are mere decoration or if they GO anywhere." DOH!!!

    (I got the DOH! by highlighting the word itself and the brackets around the HTML.)

    Parent

    Thank you n/t (none / 0) (#59)
    by ineedalife on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:30:57 AM EST
    You failed to mention (none / 0) (#15)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:37:34 AM EST
    17% of Clinton voters also plan to vote GOP.

    link

    Parent

    You are right (none / 0) (#60)
    by ineedalife on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:33:34 AM EST
    22% of Obama's votes, 17% of Clinton's. That may be inside the margin of error for the subset. But at face value it seems that Clinton's 5% lead expands to 10% without Repuklican mischief.

    Parent
    Bush (none / 0) (#6)
    by LiberallyDebunked on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:55:14 AM EST
    I don\'t recall it playing out that way but I do recall Mrs. Clinton saying that she and George Bush agreed on what to do about the home foreclosures. I\'m not sure George Bush has done anything right so I wouldn\'t want to hitch my wagon to that fella.

    Parent
    To be clear (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:56:34 AM EST
    She said that Bush caved in to the pressure of providing foreclosure relief something Obama opposed.

    Parent
    what poll? link? (none / 0) (#9)
    by rootlessx on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:58:57 AM EST
    nt

    Parent
    IVR poll yesterday (none / 0) (#13)
    by ineedalife on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:20:28 AM EST
    Buried in their details of the poll near the end they reveal that 20% of the voters that intend to vote in the Dem primary intend to vote Rep in the fall. (See comment #12 to navigate to poll details.) Some will vote Hillary but many more will vote Obama. Take them out of the poll and Hillary's lead goes from 5 to 10 points in that poll.

    Parent
    Awwwwwwwwwwww (none / 0) (#16)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:48:01 AM EST
    Those pesky stupid open primaries again.

    Parent
    ugh (none / 0) (#19)
    by mindfulmission on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:55:32 AM EST
    Read the whole poll so you don't distort the information.

    17% of the Hillary supporters are going to vote GOP also, which means their supporters are essentially going to vote for the GOP in equal numbers (they are well within the margin of error).  

    Parent

    Let's hope both findings (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:58:21 AM EST
    are merely the result of primary bad blood and it won't happen.

    That said it is certainly more likely that Republicans and Indies will vote for a Republican than will Democrats.


    Parent

    Josh Marshall does it again... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by frankly0 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:51:18 AM EST
    I have to say I just wonder how bright the guy is.

    Look, the problem with Obama's "borrowing" of Patrick's "Just words" speech is that it wasn't just a portion of a sentence, but an entire passage.

    I repeat, an entire passage. An entire passage.

    Who with a double digit IQ doesn't understand the difference between the two cases?

    Yes. Thank you. This is the point that (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by derridog on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:40:38 AM EST
    many people, including BTD, appear to be missing.  There are phrases in our language that are cliches, used over and over by everyone, such as "have a nice day."  The words that Clinton uses that are used by everyone fall into that category. Words like that help us all to communicate on a superficial cultural level without having to come up with something original to say in repetitive and ordinary social situations (or political as the case may be).

    But Obama  lifts whole passages and phrases that can be traced to more than one original source, which indicates he or his writers/advisors are trolling for these phrases. AND, even more importantly,  he reads them with the same inflection and even pauses as those from whom he plagiarizes.  He also does not seem to be able to speak well at all without such a text in front of him (he meanders and repeats himself).  I teach college and, believe me, I see my share of plagiarized work, which means copying exactly OR paraphrasing so closely as to be indistinguishable in form or meaning from the original.  There is no problem with doing this if the person gives credit to the source, but if they do not, it is a flunking offense.  It doesn't matter at all if the person they copied from agreed to it.  in that case, both people flunk.

    Joe Biden certainly didn't get a pass on this. He borrowed from a British politician and gave credit to that man each time he spoke except for the one time he was caught when he forgot to do so.   This ENDED his presidential quest. The zealous press hounded him out of the race with the usual ridicule and abuse that they love to heap on those whom they do not want to win (see Howard Dean).

    The very fact that the MSM gives Obama a pass on this very negative indication of his true abilities and character, says a lot about their hypocrisy in manipulating the public. They could have easily become a pack of baying hounds and destroyed Obama with this. In my view, he deserved that at least as much as Biden did ( if not more, because Biden is capable of holding his own without a borrowed text).  But they didn't. The question to ask then, is why?  I never look at what  the MSM does without asking "who benefits?"  They are corporate shills.  Ask yourself, why they have been trying so hard to stop Hillary and install Obama as the Dem nominee. Is it because they think he's easy to beat or do they really want Obama for some other reason? What could that reason be?  His history as an Illinois State Congressman is of working with the Republicans and not opposing them on key issues.

    Honestly, I think those are questions we need to be asking ourselves. Obama has now shown himself to be a fraud --passing himself off as a great orator because he understands how to read a passage with emotional inflection, not because he stands for the words he says.  

    This more than anything worries me about him.

    Parent

    Personal responsibilty (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by ineedalife on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:42:41 AM EST
    Obama ended the debate describing his central life lesson was learning to take personal responsibility. But where is it? He tried to minimize the plagiarism as only two lines, when it clearly isn't.

    He tried to pass off his Rezko association as only 5 billable hours. We then find out about the 14 years, and the letters he wrote, and that Rezko put up almost a million dollars so Obama could buy his mansion.

    I think Obama thinks that personal responsibility applies only to what can be proven in a court of law. That is a pretty low bar for a public official and an officer of the court, much less a president.

    Parent

    so the media has given us another (none / 0) (#66)
    by hellothere on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 01:42:44 PM EST
    candidate who has few credentials and cannot be trusted except for the ones who consider him "chosen". now just who does this remind me of?

    Parent
    I don't see it as just partisanship... (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by frankly0 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:12:49 AM EST
    Even fierce partisans, when they are in positions of some responsibility, need to protect their basic credibility. They can't say things that are too outrageously stupid, if they want to be believed on other issues. They figure out how to support their guy without entirely damaging their claim to some real objectivity.

    I just don't think the guy is very bright. He really doesn't see with real force how wrong he is on the logic. His mind seems to be vague and woolly enough that the countervailing arguments just don't penetrate.

    Sorry, but that's just how I see it.

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by TheRealFrank on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:14:08 AM EST
    The central message of Obama's campaign is that he is different. He'll bring change. He'll unite and inspire people. That is what is supposed to set him apart, since his plans are hardly different, and in fact a more careful in a few places, than Clinton's.

    So, defending him against charges of copying inspiring language by saying "all politicians do it" undermines the most important part of his campaign.

    You can't say that you support someone because he's different, and then defend them against something by saying "well, he's no different from others".


    Totally fair... (none / 0) (#40)
    by burnedoutdem on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:30:43 AM EST
    ...but it's speechwriters who rip each other off, not just politicians.  Ultimately this serves to point out that he's just like the other speechwriters.  

    As a politician I do think he's different in how he's chosen to conduct his campaign and how he's trained his staff (notice he hasn't had to fire anyone for nasty comments to the press).  As a speechwriter or orator, he does use a lot of the same old tricks.  Maybe that's an argument of semantics, but honestly my complaints about past politicians and leaders has never been that they borrow philosophy or key lines from each other, but that they go negative too quickly and sling mud with way too much zeal.  Maybe that's why I have an easy time distinguishing between the two issues.  

    But, I could see how someone who is predisposed to dislike Obama would see this as an argument against him.  Certainly, in reading the comments about the debate I see Clinton supporters praising statements that I felt were indicative of her more negative aspects.  I guess it's just a matter of perspective and expectations.

    Parent

    "Hasn't had to fire anyone for (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:36:09 AM EST
    nasty comments to the press"

    Well, he hasn't fired anyone and doesn't have to fire anyone, but he should have fired or at least disavowed Jesse Jackson Jr. a couple of times.

    Parent

    it finally occured to me (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by cpinva on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:44:40 AM EST
    who sen. obama bears the most striking public political resemblance to, and it isn't jfk: huey long, the great populist "kingfish" of louisiana politics.

    the huge adoring crowds, the nearly messianic worship of his followers, the rousing "me and you against the entrenched monied interests" speeches. heck, he dresses almost as nattily as sen. long did too. i wonder if he smokes cigars?

    in fairness, sen. obama's not been accused of the type of graft and corruption long was often associated with, to get what he wanted. of course, sen. obama doesn't have nearly the resume' long had, by the time he reached the senate.

    in fairness to long, it's also true he accomplished much for the poor and downtrodden of louisiana; their lives were measurably better for his work. huey long also scared the living daylights out of the monied and power classes, because he threatened their money and power.

    unfortunately, sen. long was also something of a demagogue-in-training, making the near fatal mistake of starting to believe his own PR.

    But Still (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Claw on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:47:50 AM EST
    I JUST DON'T CARE.  I want a dem elected and I think the continued flogging of this story hurts our chances (If HRC is nominated, she'll be the mean 'ol attack dog.  If we get Obama, he'll be the plagiarist).  The ability of dems to fumble the ball never ceases to amaze me.

    Just Because the candidate doesn't say it (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by kenoshaMarge on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:51:23 AM EST
    doesn't mean things aren't being said. Are we going to pretend that there has been no talk about every Republican talking point about the Clintons from the dawn of time? Whitewater? Travelgate? Lewinsky? Color me incredulous!

    George Bush didn't personally savage John McCain in the SC primary with innuendo about having a (gasp) black baby. But he sure took advantage of the advantage that despicable tactic gave him.

    Every time a Hillary supporter or surrogate  opens their mouth and sticks their foot in it means that Hillary is excoriated. Non stop on blogs and in the media. She is playing dirty or she's lying or spinning or whatever comes to mind to smear her with at the time.

    Obama surrogates continually bring up Bill Clinton and the Lewinsky drivel and he remains above it all. And for me, once he savaged Bill Clinton, and the only successful Democratic Administration in 40 years he lost any chance he ever had of getting my vote. He may have done himself some good, but he did the Democratic Party a great deal of harm. Unforgivable.

    And I always have to wonder if people think they are physic when they run off about what someone else would have done. How do you know that? Tealeaves? Crystal Ball? Ouija Board? Taro Cards?

    I'm wondering (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:57:17 AM EST
    who found Gennifer with a "G" after the NYT story on McCain?  Gennifer had some advice for the female lobbyist.  

    Parent
    "just words" (5.00 / 0) (#61)
    by tree on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:35:55 AM EST
    My take on it is that "plagiarism" is just a shorthand term for the problem with Obama's "just words" soundbite.

      First off, I think we need to remember that it was said in response to criticism that he has no substance or plan behind his vague words. He responded with a soundbite, rather than a substantive answer, and as it turns out, a soundbite that had been used before to answer similar criticism of Patrick.

      Secondly, the "just words" quip really SAYS nothing. In the end it also is "just words". By that I mean that it is intended to evoke the Declaration of Independence, MLK's speech, and FDR's inaugural address. But what makes those three snippets memorable is not merely those few lines, but the idea and platform that was proposed and intended in the speeches, or writings, they are a part of.

     "We hold these truths .." would not be remembered, was it not a part of a bold idea and a concrete assertion that the governed had a right to abolish and reform their own government. Nor would "I have a dream" mean anything if King did not lay out exactly what that dream of his was, and had he not already walked the walk, and  pledged to keep walking that walk. And FDR's "fear" line would have meant nothing if it wasn't  a part of a bold plan he outlined to move the US out of the Depression.

    In the end, the "just words" soudbite said nothing, because it never answered the question of  the lack of spoken substance behind Obama's "believe in me, believe in you", "hope" and "change" message. And the fact that it was a borrowed line made it all the more meaningless as a retort- not only was it a non-answer, but it was a previously contrived one.

       

    Thank you (none / 0) (#63)
    by americanincanada on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:51:10 AM EST
    that was well said.

    Parent
    there is a difference (none / 0) (#1)
    by A DC Wonk on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:23:02 AM EST
    between "a politician" and "just another politician".

    I don't think either Obama or Clinton fall into the latter category.

    There is a difference? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:13:55 AM EST
    Surely, Good and bad are the measuring sticks. But the goals are the same. Get elected.

    The point here is to make them have to do WHAT YOU WANT to get elected.

    Parent

    They are both superior people and (none / 0) (#2)
    by LiberallyDebunked on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:25:46 AM EST
    superior politicians.

    Politics as usual (none / 0) (#3)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:48:56 AM EST
    doesn't mean you not a politician.  I don't think anyone said it did.  It has more to do with government transparency, lobbyists, campaign finance reform, divisive partisonship, etc.  This is what Obama has spent the lion's share of his efforts on in his very brief time in the Senate.  Well that and running for office...  I think he gives speeches sometimes, but that's not enough for me.  

    I guess you think all his supporters see him as an saint and feel the need to bring him down for that.  But we don't.  He is not a perfect candidate, but he is better than any other in my lifetime.

    How old are you? (none / 0) (#65)
    by echinopsia on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 01:07:25 PM EST
    I was born in the middle of Watergate (none / 0) (#67)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:00:13 PM EST
    That explains a lot (none / 0) (#72)
    by echinopsia on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:47:10 PM EST
    He is not a perfect candidate, but he is better than any other in my lifetime.

    I was born in the middle of Watergate

    I was born 20 years earlier. I've seen a lot of candidates.

    Bill Clinton was a GREAT candidate, and so was Al Gore - how did you miss them?

    Parent

    Now Now the Messiah is both divine & human (none / 0) (#8)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 07:58:20 AM EST
    Everybody knows that.

    And (none / 0) (#21)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:58:48 AM EST
    a woman?

    I've seen a lot more worship here than from Obama supporters.

    Parent

    Operative word HERE (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:11:20 AM EST
    Well it is true some worship at the altar of (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:56:38 AM EST
    HRC and some worship at the altar of Obama.

    Me- I worship at the altar of electing more and better Democrats to congress so that either Messiah can get something done.

    Parent

    Not much AHA! here for a gen of cultural sampling (none / 0) (#10)
    by Ellie on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:08:36 AM EST
    Toasting, riffing, sampling, referencing, homage ...

    It's not even clear who first said "I only steal from the best!" I dimly recall reading that it was some novelist, but the sentiment could easily be depicted on later Cave Paintings.

    We live in times where people put their fingerprints all over other people's legitimate creativity, call it a mash-up and then do a self-congratulatory victory dance about it. It's fun but also kind of lame, a notch below music geeks who drool over owning a rare '45 and descending into geeks who brag they DOWNLOADED something. (Here's a fun one that gets kids from one to ninety-two on the dance floor.)

    If Obama presents the brilliance of others as his own, IMO he's not exactly insincere or phony, but someone who's selling his youthful following Harry Connick Jr. tunes as if they're Sinatra classics.

    Nothing tastes like the real thing, though, whether it's straight up Tequila, Sinatra or the Voice of a Generation.

    I like HRC and Obama equally, but neither is that phenomenon. As a fellow feminist said about Nancy Pelosi being the first woman speaker of the House, "I'm glad we finally got a female speaker ... but I wish it wasn't that one."

    Speaking of stealing from the best and cave (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by brodie on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:26:46 AM EST
    paintings, when Picasso in 1940 visited the newly-discovered Lascaux caves containing unusually advanced and clever art work at least 17,000 yrs old, he allegedly said upon leaving, "We have invented nothing!"

    Of course, whatever Pablo borrowed from ancient artists was entirely unconscious.  

    Political artist Barack Obama, basing his candidacy so heavily on the power of words, consciously lifts words, phrases and entire passages from others, often without attribution.  And probably has liberally borrowed far more material and more often than your ordinary pol.  

    Which puts him generally in Biden territory, imo.

    Not that this seems to be swaying many Dems at the moment.

    Parent

    The Glass Ceiling (none / 0) (#18)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:55:28 AM EST
    It takes a very strong woman to get to the top. You say, not that one. Well America is filled with very strong, intelligent women but how many of them are willing to step up to the plate. Not me. Too many skeletons in my closet. So the ones that are willing to do so are considered 'but not that one'. I bet Paris is willing to try for Speaker of the House, Senator, or President.

    Parent
    It's not about skeletons (or attack avoidance) (none / 0) (#22)
    by Ellie on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:08:54 AM EST
    I don't dislike NP or regard her tidy, excellent closet as any kind of plus since the Rethuggernaut's going to go for the jugular no matter what, and keep at it.

    Crossing the aisle just makes that job easier; it saves the attack squadrons the travel time. They'll invent stuff if there's no meat on the bone for their hyenas and flying monkeys.

    I just find NP weak and untruthful and too inclined to worry about how she looks on camera while selling out Dem supporters like myself.

    I can't stand Tom DeLay, but I'd love to have more Dems who'd smile in a mug shot or, at the very least, tell Tim Russert to go eff himself when he pulls out leaked dirt fed to him by friendly neighborhood CREEPS.

    Parent

    I just meant which one (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:20:02 AM EST
    We have two strong women who have gotten ahead and all I hear as an excuse as to why Hillary is not liked by men is "Not that one". And then again about NP. So, which woman would a man support? When they act tough, they are not liked. Once they show a softness, they are not liked. Elizabeth Edwards is a strong woman but if she had been running, what would her chances have been either? Do you think Maxine Walters would be accepted? I can't run but I certainly would be fun to have a beer with and maybe that is why I have the skeletons in the closet. Heh.

    Parent
    Very good observation. (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:31:59 AM EST
    People supporting Obama who are his age or younger don't see anything unusual or negative about "mix" tapes.  Its all good.

    Parent
    Sad to see good people overdosing on Obama (none / 0) (#17)
    by koshembos on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 08:48:20 AM EST


    Yes he is another politician... (none / 0) (#24)
    by tsteels2 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:20:23 AM EST
    ...who's platform/campaign is resonating with enough of the electorate to make him the so-called "frontrunner".  The entire plagiarism/borrowed lines "thing" is SO DONE.  Both campaigns need to stop with this.


    So true: (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:33:48 AM EST
    Sort of been my point for a while now.

    BTW:  Is this line original?

    Politicians have lifted from the beginning... (none / 0) (#28)
    by burnedoutdem on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:51:02 AM EST
    ...chunks of our Declaration of Independence and Constitution were lifted from John Locke and other philosophers the framers respected.  Since politics is as much philosophy as it is governing, it happens.

    What I find hard to stomach is hypocrisy.  It seems immature to stand on the stage and rip on the guy and then lift someone else's lines shortly after.  For those who missed it, in her final speech last night, HRC's key lines were lifted (I won't say "plagiarized," but if you check the video on YouTube they're pretty close) from John Edwards and Bill Clinton.  Here's the link.

    Probably "lifted" (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:57:10 AM EST
    from many who came before Clinton and Edwards.

    But I think franklyO makes a good point, you can't compare lifting of wholesale passages to lifting of a line or two.

    In any event, I think it is all much ado about nothing, except that it does drive home the point that Obama is politics as usual too.

    Parent

    I teach speechwriting... (1.00 / 0) (#37)
    by burnedoutdem on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:19:12 AM EST
    ...and this issue already has my freshmen howling about in-text citation requirements in class.  From my own selfish standpoint, I wish like crazy he had just cited his friend, even if it goofed up the cadence of the speech.

    But, that doesn't change the fact that HRC used a dirty tactic and diverged from the issues to call him names and then committed the same sin herself.  Deliberate or not, it seemed like a stupid and desperate way to try to crush his credibility and she only proved that she's just as guilty.

    Whether this makes him just like "any other politician" is an interesting point.  By profession, he IS a politician.  I guess you can try and argue that borrowing a sentiment from a colleague makes him "just like all the others," but I have two responses to that.  1) if that lumps him in with great leaders (also politicians) like Jefferson, then that's not necessarily bad.  2) I think he diverged from "politics as usual" when she made the Xerox line and he refused to rebut it - he instead turned his rebuttal to policy issues.  My guess is his staff compiled for him a list of occasions where Clinton ripped off many other speakers (including Obama), and instead of unleashing it like many politicians would have, he took the critique like a grown up and returned to substance.  It made her look petty and small (and she was booed).  The fact that he hasn't tried hanging the scandals of the 90's on her and has stuck to policy problems like healthcare and NAFTA demonstrates that he's not like most politicians when it comes to going negative.  Certainly, he's nothing like her, because if the tables were turned she would have been throwing around Lewinsky and TravelGate "from day one."

    Parent

    Hillary did not commit the same sin (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:22:35 AM EST
    If you teach speechwriting, I ask you, who exactly should Hillary have credited for that line?

    Shaquille O'Neal? Brittany Spears?

    That line is owned by NO ONE.

    I was with you until you went off and misstated the facts.


    Parent

    Oh, not the Xerox line... (none / 0) (#42)
    by burnedoutdem on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:35:53 AM EST
    Sorry I posted a link to video earlier on this thread.  Her speech at the end lifted lines from both Edwards and Bill Clinton.  My argument is, I'm sure it was innocent on her part - they were sentiments that she agreed with at the time and the language was filed away in her head.  But since she's living proof that borrowing happens (they've all borrowed from allies and opponents), then it seems unfair to zing him like that on stage.  I don't think the Xerox line worked to her advantage at all.


    Parent
    But that (5.00 / 0) (#55)
    by americanincanada on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:58:40 AM EST
    is exactly the point. What Hillary said at the end is not owned by anyone. Who should she has sited for the use of the ONE LINE?

    Laura Bush: 'Whatever happens will be fine' [El Paso Times, 5/19/00]

    NBA Star Shaquille O'Neal: `We'll be fine, no matter what happens.' [AP, 10/8/03]

    Actress Lindsay Lohan: `No matter what happens, we're going to be fine.' [AP, 4/19/07]

    Former Redskin Dexter Manley: 'Whatever happens, I'm going to be fine.' [Washington Post, 7/26/98]

    Former Redskin Gus Frerotte: 'I look forward to whatever happens. We're going to be fine.' [Washington Times, 12/22/98]

    Notre Dame football player Tom Zbikowski: 'Whatever happens, we're going to be fine back there.' [Notre Dame football player Tom Zbikowski, 4/22/07]

    Angels GM Bill Stoneman: 'Whatever happens, I'm going to be fine.' [Los Angeles Times, 2/22/03]

    Former Giant Christian Peter: 'And whatever happens, I'm going to be fine.' [Asbury Park Press, 1/29/01]

    Chicago Cub Larry Rothschild: 'I'm not worried about that. Whatever happens, I'm going to be fine.' [St. Petersburg Times, 4/1/01]

    Diamondback Edgar Gonzalez: 'Whatever happens, I'll be fine because I'm in the big leagues.' [Edgar Gonzalez, Diamondbacks, 5/2/07]

    Hockey player Richard Hamula: 'Whatever happens I'll be fine with but hopefully I can still stick around here.' [Richard Hamula, hockey player, 9/20/02]

    Leonard Hamm, interim commissioner for the Baltimore City Police Department: `Whatever happens, I'm going to be fine.' [Baltimore Afro-American, 11/19/04]

    We know who Obama stole an ENTIRE PASSAGE from, Deval Patrick.

    Parent

    Lifted lines from Shaq you mean (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:53:20 AM EST
    This is ludicrous now.

    Parent
    what do you say to (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by Kathy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:35:32 AM EST
    the "Hillary Care" mailers telling folks they were going to lose their homes in order to pay for insurance?  What do you say to the Alaska mailer that claimed Bill Clinton ruined the democratic party?

    I just don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that he is above "politics as usual."

    These things are the usual because they WORK, and Obama does them just as surely as anyone else.  He has transcended nothing.  This is right up there with folks saying Fox news is "fair and balanced" and George Bush is a "uniter, not a divider."

    Just because someone SAYS they are one thing does not mean that they are not the other.

    And I say this as a blonde 22 year old who weighs 100 pounds and is independently wealthy.

    Parent

    I live in Illinois (none / 0) (#45)
    by burnedoutdem on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:43:47 AM EST
    ..in a very red county, where he's had a lot of support.  I've been one of the beneficiaries of his different approach to politics.  He really did a great job here in the legislature.  I've been a fan since he came and spoke to my high school early in his legislative career.  He really does believe in having the people be involved in their own governing which to me is a breath of fresh air when my President told me all I could do after 9/11 was donate blood and go shopping.  The encouragement to be a participant beyond voting, for a guy who doesn't take the cheap shots that others do is refreshing and exciting.

    Because I live in Illinois, though, I haven't received any mailers and there hasn't been much coverage about them online.  I don't know what they are in response to, or who actually sent them.  Which doesn't mean they're not bad - maybe they would change my mind about his message - I just haven't seen them.

    What does your age, hair color and weight have to do with anything?  You lost me there...I think I need another cup of coffee...


    Parent

    "What does your age.." (5.00 / 0) (#50)
    by tree on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:52:53 AM EST
     Kathy is probably NOT blond, 100 pounds and independently wealthy. That's her point. Saying she is those things doesn't MAKE her those things. It was an illustration of her point that just because Obama SAYS he's different frm other politicians doesn't mean he really is different.

    Parent
    Hey! (none / 0) (#64)
    by Kathy on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:16:59 PM EST
    I am blonde.

    The rest...well, a lady never tells. (though, come on--I could also be a really, really weird man...)

    Parent

    Everybody steals good lines. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Avedon on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:49:08 AM EST
    Absolutely everyone, and I include good speakers. I'm a good speaker with a flair for sharp rhetoric developed on the spot (I never write speeches), but I steal good lines and phrases, too, and I'm not a politician.

    There are two differences:

    1.  I don't represent myself as an inspirational speaker, I just represent myself as someone who has studied certain issues and knows what the data says and what people involved in the debate have said.

    2.  When I steal more than just a felicitous phrase of a couple-three words, I give credit.  All Obama had to do was say, "As my friend Deval Patrick said...".  But he didn't.  He took ownership of what was essentially a full quotation.  That was stupid.

    But then, I've long been annoyed by the degree to which most politicians no longer write their own speeches.  There are still a small number of people in Congress who continue to do so and can still speak eloquently just from a couple of index cards with a few phrases on them, but I'm often surprised by how many more politicians either read directly from speeches someone else wrote or just speak badly and haltingly.

    Once you reach the point where it's understood that people are just reciting speeches written by others, it's hard to accuse them of plagiarism.  Accuse the speechwriters, perhaps.

    I deleted my comment about Josh Marshall (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:54:15 AM EST
    It was uncivil of me.

    Love the update. Wasn't that (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 10:58:40 AM EST
    phrase part of Costner's advice to Robbins on how to talk to the press?  

    so was FDR (none / 0) (#58)
    by rootlessx on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 11:22:09 AM EST
    And as President he also did some very bad things as well as the good stuff.

    There is no presidential candidate who will save us. But there are ones who may kill us - and John McCain certainly fits the bill.


    JMM should Sit this out (none / 0) (#68)
    by pluege on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:07:48 PM EST
    JMM is good at muckraking minutia - that's it. He sucks at ideas, and his ability to assess and judge are non-existent. He's a fine upstanding member of the Kevin Drum school of foundationless unmoored thinking.

    JMM should dig out facts and stop there. His primary coverage has been disastrous, reminiscent of his initial support for Iraq invasion.
    .

    We need an Inspiring Politician (none / 0) (#69)
    by MSS on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 03:46:14 PM EST
    It is not enough to be a good (or great) politician, as both Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama are.

    Today we need INSPIRATION. That is where Obama is different and where he shows himself to be a politician and more.

    I appreciate that both Clinton and Obama are thoughtful, intelligent, quick-witted, political, ambitious, and wish to change the country and the world in a good way. We are fortunate to have such choices.

    But Barak Obama is INSPIRING. He helps me WANT to work with others to make this a better country. And he inspires my husband's very-conservative niece to want to work together to make changes. THAT is why it's great that he's the likely Democratic candidate.

    The question is not who is "a politician" or "more than a politician." The question is who can make a more immediate impact -- both in getting elected against slimey St. McCain, and in causing the ocean liner of the congress and citizenry to move in a different direction.

    Please don't get caught up in a pissing contest. Barak Obama will be a great candidate and, heavens willing, a great President.

    If Barack Obama can inspire Mitch McConnell (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by BDB on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 04:10:15 PM EST
    to admit the error of his ways and suddenly become agreeable to working out real solutions on issues, then I'll try to go back and re-cast my vote and change it to him.  Of course, I want to know why - if he's some great inspirational leader who can bring Republicans to their knees - he hasn't done that already.  I've noticed despite his terrific oratory skills, we're still in Iraq.  I've even noticed that he hasn't really used such skills since he got to the Senate to get us out of Iraq.

    Or forget Iraq, why couldn't the great Obama get a few Republicans to switch over and override Bush's veto of S-CHIP?  That should have been small and doable for such an inspirational guy.

    I appreciate folks who are inspired by him and I hope you all stay involved in politics and don't get disillusioned to find that if Obama is elected on January 21, 2009, the Republicans are not going to see the light and melt in front of teh awesomeness that is Barack Obama and suddenly stop blocking all those good pieces of legislation they've been blocking in the Senate.  We are going to be marred and stuck in the same fights we've been fighting since the beginning of time because progress is always a fight.  And, if anything, Republicans will be worse if Obama (or Clinton) is elected because their political motivation to try to block anything and everything will increase dramatically if Dems control both the Congress and the White House - the goal will be to give the Dems as few political wins as possible.  Because Republicans aren't fighting Democratic ideas because Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are too unreasonable and difficult to work with, they're fighting them because they believe it is in their political and ideological interest to fight them.  And so it won't matter how inspiring Obama is to you, it isn't going to change the behavior of them.

    Parent

    Ah, but what is inspiring to partisans (none / 0) (#71)
    by esmense on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 05:26:21 PM EST
    ...may not be at all what the general election voter thinks is inspiring.

    I, like every other partisan Democrat who heard it, thought Obama's speech at the 2004 convention was brilliant. But, when he made his assertion that there wasn't a "red" America or a "blue" America, but one America, he was talking to people who for the last 4 years had been told they weren't "real" Americans. He was beautifully expressing their pain and frustration with that insult and with the current administration's exclusion and dismissal of them and their concerns. His assertion that we all worship a "mighty God" was "inspirational" because he  was speaking to people whose own moral and religious values were being repeatedly denied and denigrated.

    Democrats, especially liberal and progressive Democrats, crave, and are responding to, calls for "unity" because for far too long they have felt, and have been, excluded -- by this president and the "divisive" way he and his party governed.

    But what about all those independent, swing and moderate Republican Americans who, while they may be disappointed in how Bush has handled his job, don't feel that he has rejected them and their values? Will those less partisan voters see Obama's calls for unity as acknowledging and reaching out to them and their concerns and values, or, rather, as one commentator said recently, will they see it as "a call for all Americans to agree with them" and embrace the concerns and ideas of, and follow the lead of, those on the Left?  

    Are partisan Democratic positions really any less "divisive" than partisan Republican ones?

    Is a statement like "we are the ones we have been waiting for" inclusive or exclusive?

    Are you sure the independent former Perot and McCain voter will really feel included in that "we?" That they are hungering to be included in that "we?"

    Parent