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The Obama Rules: Huff Po Style

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only.

When is mocking your opponent a good thing? According to HuffPo wire service selections, when you are Barack Obama. When is it a bad thing? According to Huff Po, when you are Hillary Clinton.

Yes, it is the Obama Rules again:
Any criticism of Obama's statements which do not take into account Obama's clarifications and explanations of what he REALLY meant are unfair personal attacks and the attacker is a "liar" who will say and do anything to get elected. . . . Obama's attacks are always fair and merited. . . .

More . . .

Classic from Huff Po. Defending Obama:

Humor is a tradition on the Las Vegas Strip and in presidential campaigns because it's a way to score a point without sounding too negative. President Bush used it to skewer John Kerry in 2004 as fancy and soft on terrorism, while Ronald Reagan was one of the best at wielding one-liners.

Attacking Clinton:

Hillary Clinton's campaign is on its last legs after suffering a string of defeats to her rival Barack Obama. Clinton made the decision to go negative in an effort to halt Obama's rising momentum. Today, Clinton was at a campaign rally in Providence, Rhode Island, and she mocked Obama and his message of hope and change in a very theatrical, over-the-top manner.

That's pretty fair no? According to the Obama Rules.

< Wolcott On The Malign Acceptance Of Sexism | Outrageous Attack On Obama's Patriotism >
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  • Display: Sort:
    What I think they don't realize (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:44:30 PM EST
    is that the "Obama is SO last season" media narrative is starting to gel. IOW, the hype is burning off.

    Whether that will have any impact on the race at all is an open question: obama's money is substantial, and the political pundits are remarkably unhip.

    Yep (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by spit on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:54:30 PM EST
    I'm seeing the loss of coolness gaining steam, too. It's the trajectory these things always take.

    Which is good, honestly, regardless of the outcome. I'm just fine with him winning, but I'll feel a lot better about the whole thing if I feel like people aren't just jumping on a hip new bandwagon, and hopefully if the left broadly starts to display a little more understanding of the deal it's making.

    Parent

    Also the loss of underdog status (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:27:52 PM EST
    as the persecution complex is problematic if your candidate is the frontrunner.

    Parent
    I lost it (none / 0) (#142)
    by sara seattle on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:03:39 PM EST
    when I read that 14,000 people applauded Obama for blowing his nose -- they have come undone

    Shades of "The Life of Brian"

    Parent

    Unmerited self-esteem. (none / 0) (#155)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:37:21 PM EST
    He's not the Messiah... (none / 0) (#181)
    by Rainsong on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 04:25:19 AM EST
    .. he's just a very naughty boy!

    Parent
    Right.. Republican pundits can't (none / 0) (#3)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:49:23 PM EST
    pretend to change their mind after the convention, or it's too obvious. Now that Obama is almost assured of the nomination, they're starting to express doubts. Brooks was at it this morning, for instance.

    Parent
    One reason is that he doesn't (none / 0) (#9)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:56:27 PM EST
    change his stump speech at all (so I have read).
    Reporters and pundits know this, and they'll get bored, even if the public doesn't.
    I assume that Hilllary does not give the same speech  ; since she is not a packaged product like Obama, there's no reason she would.

    Parent
    well, Obama is giving the identical (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:42:44 PM EST
    speech in every state---or so I have read.
    Sure sounds like Bush-lite to me.

    Parent
    sounds like lots of bored reporters (none / 0) (#124)
    by Kathy on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:49:50 PM EST
    who have time to look at the audience with derision.

    I said two weeks ago that the press's love affair was quickly fading because they were no longer being coddled by the campaign.

    Simple politicking: don't make the press wait in line.  Make sure they've got coffee and donuts.  Don't deny them access or they will all write the same story, and it won't be flattering.

    Parent

    really? frankly, the obama supporters (none / 0) (#185)
    by hellothere on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 09:02:57 AM EST
    don't take the time to listen to hillary or study her proposals. you are an excellent example.

    Parent
    I wonder if Hillary's mocking of Obama (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:45:04 PM EST
    will strike a chord with Democrats.
    I know that she is speaking to a big audience.
    There are millions of Democrats who think Obama is at best an ordinary candidate, and who think that Obama's ego is totally out of control as well.

    I saw the video and thought it was kind of funny (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Daryl24 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:49:50 PM EST
    Just came from one blog where the majority of folks were acting like she had just foreclosed on an orphanage.

    I knew a lot of the liberal blogosphere didn't like her (understatement) but YIKES!!

    The thing most people ... (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:57:48 PM EST
    don't seem to get is that many men in the progressive blogosphere aren't just like other male Internet addicts, they're the same people.

    It's a few hours as a level 60 Mage in World of Warcraft, then a few hours on Dkos.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

    So why do they hate women?  Do I really need to answer that question?

    Parent

    i doubt you are correct. (none / 0) (#18)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:01:34 PM EST
    I am the typical demographic for a blog like DK:
    I have a Ph.D and I'm in my 40's.

    Parent
    You should look up the ... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:05:30 PM EST
    demographics of World of Warcraft.  I think you'd fit right in.

    Parent
    lol.. really? Well, I don't play (none / 0) (#30)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:06:44 PM EST
    any of those games. I assumed people in their teens and 20s were playing.

    Parent
    Congrats on an extremely (none / 0) (#131)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:54:23 PM EST
    polite and judicious reply.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#20)
    by Mystic55 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:03:12 PM EST
    Eve online is much cooler.

    And, as I said other places, you are not automatically a misogynist if you are male and support Obama just as much as you are not automatically a racist if you are white and support Sen. Clinton.

    Parent

    Obviously ... (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:08:09 PM EST
    but the Obama supporters who are sexist, are sexist.  

    And the fact that there are a lot of them in the progressive blogosphere who fall into this category really isn't a matter of debate anymore.

    Parent

    You're definitely right about that!! (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:09:15 PM EST
    Aravosis is the most disappointing, since as a gay man he should have SOME sensitivity to sexism.

    Parent
    I'm just surprised (none / 0) (#78)
    by Nasarius on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:25:49 PM EST
    That after getting very, very angry (with good reason) at Obama over the whole McClurkin debacle, he seems to have forgotten it entirely.

    Parent
    He's always been uneven, but (none / 0) (#84)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:28:13 PM EST
    usually his irrational snits lasted only a few days.

    Parent
    Thanks for the random unsubstantiated slander (none / 0) (#39)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:09:07 PM EST
    While we're at it, why don't we consider why do people that support Clinton hate black people? Do I really need to answer that question? (this is snark btw).

    Parent
    People who support Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:14:19 PM EST
    do not typically attack Obama by saying that he's behaving like a stereotypical black movie character.

    Parent
    So I take it ... (none / 0) (#50)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:14:49 PM EST
    your Mage hasn't gotten to level 60 yet?

    ;)

    Parent

    I don't even know what you're talking about (none / 0) (#58)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:16:47 PM EST
    so I guess not :'(

    Parent
    It was meant to reply ... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:27:46 PM EST
    to someone up thread, but a bunch of posts fell in between.  So my little humorous comment didn't work.

    Parent
    Link? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Kathy on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:05:57 PM EST
    Anyone have the link to this?

    I just read something troubling on Taylor Marsh--that TL has been targeted for its perceived pro-Clinton bias.  Is that correct?

    I am very troubled by the nasty tone out there.  I know Marsh gets lots of nasty emails (she posts them) but HERE?

    I thought we were safe here.

    Folks, if you've got it, donate money to TL to help keep them going and let them know that they have our support.  Nobody gets to play for free...

    Parent

    Donate to Hillary, too. (none / 0) (#37)
    by john5750 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:08:41 PM EST
    She is not financed by the GOP like Obama is.

    Parent
    News to me (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:09:41 PM EST
    But I am always targetted.

    Parent
    Here is the link (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Kathy on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:17:59 PM EST
    from Taylor Marsh

    Booman (Booman Tribune) has apparently taken on the role of Netroots Police and has deemed that Talk Left for the Clinton leanings probably shouldn't be trusted after the primaries are over, to "get back on board" for the general election.

    LINK

    Parent

    On Booman (none / 0) (#72)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:24:48 PM EST
    He is an old firend of mne. Seriously, We have been cursing each other out and calling each other idiots in e-mails for months now.

    We'll make up after this is over.

    Parent

    he's trashing me (none / 0) (#180)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:17:54 AM EST
    more than you. Very juvenile. Very unprogressive.

    Parent
    See also "Obama Blog Targets Talk Left" (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:25:42 PM EST
    at taylormarsh.com.

    Parent
    Hoping you and J don't get the kind of (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:39:28 PM EST
    e mail Digby posted recently.  I'd change e mail addresses if I had to wade through that.

    Parent
    one of the recent obama supporters (none / 0) (#186)
    by hellothere on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 09:07:33 AM EST
    who i no longer see on here had a post that looked like a threat to me. i even questioned it. the recent obama supporter who remains showed more courtesy and a willingness to debate most of the time.

    Parent
    That's because you don't understand the Obama Rule (none / 0) (#191)
    by kenoshaMarge on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 10:31:06 AM EST
    Obama says something negative about Hillary Clinton that is fair and nothing unusual in a campaign. Just Hunky Dory.

    Clinton says something negative about Obama and the Daffy Duck Brigade begins sputtering "Despicable". Or worse. Much, much worse!

    Parent

    I used to go there (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by glennmcgahee on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:51:55 PM EST
    I no longer read Huffpost and alot of other so-called progressive blogs. You have to wonder if they all hope that they will get donations from the youth vote people just like the newspapers are endorsing to get all the advertising dollars that Obama has accumulated. I also wonder if they don't care that they are losing 50% of the democratic electorate that is voting for Clinton. Do they think they are gonna get the right-wing people's donations that are skewing the vote towards Obama? If he is elected, how are they gonna explain his joining with Republicans and his support of Leiberman's re-election for all the bi-partisanship he is promising.

    The buyer's remorse will come (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:59:39 PM EST
    almost immediately after the election too. (if he wins, that is).

    Once the infatuation fades, they'll complain that he isn't progressive....well DUH, I could have told them that before they elected him!

    Parent

    This... (none / 0) (#16)
    by Mystic55 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:01:03 PM EST
    As compared to the buyer's remorse in future generations in which it becomes easier for other members of the Bush family run because they believe family ties matter more than issues?

    Parent
    It's that last part I worry about (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Daryl24 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:00:16 PM EST
    Isn't Lieberman supposed to be Obama's mentor?

    Parent
    Yes, Lieberman was Obama's mentor (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:29:29 PM EST
    in the Senate -- said to be by assignment, but Obama campaigned for Lieberman against the good guy in Connecticut in return.

    Parent
    So did Clinton (none / 0) (#91)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:31:17 PM EST
    Most of the major Dems campaigned for Lieberman in the primary. (Which is a failure of most of the party imo). Obama did not actively support Lieberman in the general.

    Parent
    Did he support Lamont in the general? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:34:50 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#102)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:38:22 PM EST

    HARTFORD, Conn. --Ned Lamont got a boost Thursday from one of the Democratic party's brightest rising stars, Sen. Barack Obama.

    The Illinois senator and potential 2008 presidential candidate sent an e-mail message to his Connecticut supporters urging them to rally behind Lamont's challenge to three-term Sen. Joe Lieberman.

    "Ned Lamont has waged an impressive grass roots campaign to give the people of Connecticut a choice in the November Senate election," Obama wrote. "Please join me in supporting Ned Lamont with your hard work on-the-ground in these closing weeks of the campaign." The Lamont camp said Obama's e-mail went to about 5,000 Connecticut residents.

    Lamont aides said they welcomed the support of Obama, who has enjoyed a surge in popularity in recent weeks as speculation about his national ambitions mounts.

    "He's a very credible, charismatic and inspiring politician," said senior Lamont adviser Tom D'Amore. "We're thrilled to have his support. Obama has also given $5,000 to Lamont's campaign through a political committee.

    "Ned Lamont and I share a commitment to bringing our troops home safely from Iraq, to achieving energy independence, to helping all our citizens realize the American dream, and to empowering the American people to reclaim their government," Obama wrote.

    link

    He didn't go all out for Lamont, and I wish he would have, but he did respect the results of the primary and support the Dem.

    Parent

    Hahaha that cracked (none / 0) (#31)
    by mg7505 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:06:49 PM EST
    me up because Lieberman has been campaigning with McCain (even while JM makes infamous statements). Making a decision between BO and JM will be harder than I thought!

    Parent
    well there will be new blogs that fill the gap. (none / 0) (#187)
    by hellothere on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 09:09:04 AM EST
    vacuums are always filled. and these "older" blogs will suffer. my answer, who cares! like i told countdown, i used to trust you, but no more.

    Parent
    I liked what she said (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Coldblue on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:55:17 PM EST
    Did she get advice from JRE on her visit with him?

    Now that is a very interesting speculation. (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:57:20 PM EST
    A Hillary/Edwards ticket makes sense to me now.


    Parent
    Here's some speculation: (none / 0) (#46)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:11:25 PM EST
    suppose Edwards endorsed Hillary AND she said he would be her VP choice. Would that be enough to stop Obama?

    Parent
    imo, it would be difficult (none / 0) (#68)
    by Coldblue on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:23:10 PM EST
    for Edwards in that he was the first to take Hillary on for her accepting lobbyist money.

    I'm also not sure that Obama is stoppable at this point, although I hope I'm very wrong.

    Parent

    Well, the superdelegates can (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:25:06 PM EST
    change their mind, if there is good reason to do so.
    Their purpose is to prevent the party from going off a cliff in its choice of nominee.

    Parent
    Yuck, I broke my own rule and went to (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:25:24 PM EST
    HuffPo to read that piece.  The piece was bad enough but the comments were just sick.

    Who are those people?  

    hopefully Republican trolls and not (none / 0) (#87)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:29:38 PM EST
    Democrats

    Parent
    Unfortunately (none / 0) (#152)
    by sara seattle on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:22:01 PM EST
    it is Democrats -- of the Obama followers version/conversion

    Parent
    They are tabloid editorialists (none / 0) (#88)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:29:55 PM EST
    The credibility free zone.

    Parent
    The place is a festering sore (none / 0) (#107)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:41:17 PM EST
    I try to avoid it at all costs, and I'm an Obama supporter.

    Parent
    It's not just the politics section either (none / 0) (#125)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:49:59 PM EST
    that bothers me.

    It's nice to agree with you about something ;-).

    Have a good day.

    Parent

    One of the first links (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:03:08 PM EST
    in this post was to Obama talking about his really bad answer to the "what is your weakness" question.

    His answer proved to me that he's never had a legitimate job interview.  In job interviews, you're always asked that question.  But if you read good books on interviewing skills (What Color is your Parachute, etc), you should NEVER actually answer with a weakness.   You should always list a strength and pretend it's a weakness (e.g. I'm a workaholic, I'm too dedicated to my work and sometimes forget my family responsibilities, etc.).

    Imagine saying, "my weakness is I always lose my paperwork".  You wouldn't get the job.

    I think it's truly a mistake for Obama to bring that horrible moment in his campaign out in a stump speech.  It's going to get trounced by Repubs.

    Makes you wonder why Michelle (none / 0) (#148)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:15:23 PM EST
    wouldn't accept a job offer until the interviewer met Barack.

    Parent
    Uh what? (none / 0) (#149)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:16:23 PM EST
    No, you should never answer with the "I like to work too much" response. That's in interviewing 101. The correct answer to what is your greatest weakness is that you have a small, minor weakness (maybe say scheduling or messy desk) but you've identified it and are taking proactive measures to make it better (to compensate, I've signed up for an alert system or make it a priority once a week to get things in order).

    Parent
    I disagree! (none / 0) (#158)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:46:20 PM EST
    So I guess we don't agree about everything!

    Parent
    Not so fast (none / 0) (#8)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:55:45 PM EST
    The Obama piece is by the AP off the wires (note the little AP next to the byline), and the headline uses the word mocking. Quibble with the AP if you want about the content.

    The HuffPo piece on Clinton asks if the readers think it is a good thing for her to mock him, without much editorializing.

    Bwahahaha!!!! (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:58:13 PM EST
    This is NOT editorializing?

    Hillary Clinton's campaign is on its last legs after suffering a string of defeats to her rival Barack Obama. Clinton made the decision to go negative</b? in an effort to halt Obama's rising momentum. Today, Clinton was at a campaign rally in Providence, Rhode Island, and she mocked Obama and his message of hope and change <b>in a very theatrical, over-the-top manner.

    Please Andrew, you a a nice commenter, but you just made a fool of yourself.

    Parent

    Hillary won all the BIG states (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by john5750 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:12:08 PM EST
    and she likely will win TX, OH, RI, PA, etc.

    Peole are starting to get sick of Obama's lies and repetition.

    Parent

    Do me a favor (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:34:55 PM EST
    instead of just spamming the same smear how bout you back up your claims that Obama is a liar?

    Parent
    here's one, (none / 0) (#172)
    by kangeroo on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:25:29 PM EST
    particularly relevant to ohio.

    Parent
    I'm afraid that (none / 0) (#139)
    by mg7505 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:01:33 PM EST
    Hillary may not win the March 4th states. Not because of the media's nonsensical comparison of the Hillary/Giuliani firewall strategies. But because of what happened to HRC in Iowa, and the tightening of polls. Almost without exception this primary, when his numbers get that close they shoot right up.

    Parent
    So what happened in California? (none / 0) (#163)
    by diplomatic on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:01:45 PM EST
    What happened in Massachussetts?  What happened in New Jersey?  In all those states he was "closing" in the final days and even leading in the polls but it was actually Clinton who rebounded and won with solid margins.

    Parent
    It's the usual HuffPo line (none / 0) (#25)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:05:51 PM EST
    but it's not like they went on an extended soliloquy about it. Furthermore, it was an out-and-out editorial comment, so it's not like they're trying to subtly bias the news in Obama's favor. You're comparing that to an AP article off the wires, which I don't think is much of a comparison if you're trying to do the whole "Obama Rules" thing.

    The HuffPo is partisan in this race, news at 11; have they pretended otherwise? Jerome, Jeralyn, and Hillaryis44 are also partisan about this race, more news at 11.

    Parent

    IT is the usual Huff Po Line (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:09:01 PM EST
    That is the problem Andrew.

    This is supposed to be what kind of coverage?

    Parent

    Do they pretend to be a news organization? (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:12:02 PM EST
    I thought your point about the "Obama Rule" was that he got more favorable coverage in traditional media.

    HuffPo is the opinion-fueled dumping ground for all second-rate pundits that can't make it onto the cable news, and has always been a cesspool. Saying that an editorial blurb written on there compared to an AP wire article proves anything seems a little silly to me.

    Parent

    Why yes they do (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:16:42 PM EST
    Tom Edsall, know who he is?

    Parent
    I know who he is (none / 0) (#64)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:20:59 PM EST
    when he writes there, does he pretend that it is dispassionate news or is it up front editorialism? And he's one of the very few decent commentators there out of the swamp of seemingly endless hacks.

    If you've got an AP article about Clinton's comment to compare to the AP article about Obama, then I think we can start to talk about "Obama Rules," or at least how you've defined it.

    Parent

    Both (none / 0) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:23:50 PM EST
    It depends.

    Huff Po is a hybrid.

    But so what really. You accept  then that this second story is utterly biased BS?

    Parent

    If they write about Clinton (none / 0) (#76)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:25:32 PM EST
    differently, then you've got some evidence. If they give Clinton the same pass, then no, it isn't biased.

    Parent
    Here's a misleading headline up since (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:46:18 PM EST
    yesterday:  Clinton Apologizes for Husband's Racist Remarks"

    HUFF POST

    Parent

    that is deplorable. (none / 0) (#173)
    by kangeroo on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:30:16 PM EST
    it's so irresponsible of the media to exploit racial tensions, and they've been doing it gleefully.  i'm really upset at the lot of them.

    Parent
    It is comforting to me that you (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:19:12 PM EST
    do not view Huff Po as a newswire.  Quick, yes, but those deceptive headlines and/or absolutely false headlines. I do enjoy Nora Ephron's thoughts and humor and Erica Jong's op eds, but I do wonder why they post there.    

    Parent
    I got to this bloq via Huffpo (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:01:29 PM EST
    They have gotten in the habit of placing all the anti-clinton pieces in prominent places.  They also have allowed anti-Hillary or Pro-Obama Threads to remain posted longer than any Pro-Hillary piece.  I have yet to see any anti-Obama piece there (they might have been) and the general attitude of the commentaries there is like a piranha feeding frenzy when it comes to attacking Hillary and Bill Clinton.

    Parent
    The Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:03:09 PM EST
    pictures they pick are always horrid.  

    Parent
    I like this photo of Hillary and Bill... (none / 0) (#51)
    by john5750 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:15:16 PM EST
    and how much of it.

    Parent
    Having seen (none / 0) (#14)
    by Mystic55 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:00:15 PM EST
    Many extraordinarily acidic anti Obama editorials on HuffingtonPost, I think you would be far more effective in your criticism if you mentioned specific people rather than the venue.

    BTW (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:21:45 PM EST
    The choice of wire service stories is an editorial choice.

    Parent
    This is their news coverage (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:08:12 PM EST
    Excuse me. You need to acknowledge that.

    Parent
    When Obama (none / 0) (#21)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:03:56 PM EST
    won 64% in Virginia, I asked, hypothetically, what it would take for you to analyze it at TalkLeft (BTD used MD exit polls to predict that the Potomac primary was actually bad news for Obama), winning with 70% of the vote??

    When Obama crosses 1,000,000 small donors, will that merit serious discussion about the implications?

    There are TalkLeft rules too. Some things don't get addressed but should, some things used to get addressed here but have fallen by the wayside.

    58% in Wisconsin. Winning by almost 200,000 votes in a state with favorable demographics to Clinton.

    Splitting the vote of women in Wisconsin, winning the vote of voters who make less than $50,000, winning registered Democrats 53 to 46%. Senator Feingold's vote.

    I mean this in all sincerity, these are real topics of substance that folks in our party are looking at and thinking about.

    Winning the vote of Democrats and popular vote totals were topics that were HOT TOPICS here just two weeks ago.

    At some point one or the other primary candidate has to win and we have to come together.

    Either candidate will face challenges in the general. I think we can all understand that.

    At some point Senator Clinton will either succeed or fail in the firewall strategy. We all know that. It could be sooner rather than later.

    Are her current tactics helping any of us? I don't happen to think so. And I think that you can lose Wisconsin the way she just did and then take such a divisive tone...190,000 votes in WI is a very big deal.  

    At some point, it has to register that the voters want change, and, with all due respect to the Senator from New York, the voters have so far decided that she is not the candidate they prefer.

    This is completely off topic and you know it (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:05:31 PM EST
    This comment will be deleted.

    Post it in the Open Thread.

    I will give you 10 minutes to cut and past your comment.

    Parent

    asking about the Talk Left rules (none / 0) (#34)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:07:56 PM EST
    seems on topic to me at this point.

    Parent
    It's one of the most transparent (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:09:59 PM EST
    attempts to change the subject that I've ever seen.

    Parent
    quote (none / 0) (#45)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:11:23 PM EST
    There are TalkLeft rules too. Some things don't get addressed but should, some things used to get addressed here but have fallen by the wayside.

    Parent
    You're lucky that this (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by andgarden on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:15:18 PM EST
    is going to be deleted.

    Parent
    Use the Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:16:07 PM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:15:43 PM EST
    I just told you the rules.

    Did you copy your comment yet?

    Put it in the Open Thread.

    Parent

    If you delete me here (none / 0) (#67)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:23:10 PM EST
    when I am responding to you attacking Huff Post about the Obama rules...bringing up that there are Talk Left rules, too. Challenging you on that.

    And addressing Senator Clinton's rhetoric to boot.

    I would strongly disagree with that choice of action. It confirms a set of bad trends here, in my view.

    Blogging can be better than this. I am far from perfect, or even a long time member here, but I think, like any other reader here, I should be able to make a sincere blog comment without it being summarily deleted.

    Parent

    You should do that anyway (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:28:30 PM EST
    if you believe it.

    hell, write the DIARY HERE!!

    Frankly, if it was my blog I would invite you to write on the Front Page. I would love to debate this issue with you.

    It would be fun and illuminating.

    But NOT as an off topic comment in this thread.

    Parent

    Where is there a link (none / 0) (#94)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:33:25 PM EST
    where you can write diaries here?

    I don't see it. Am I blind?

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:39:11 PM EST
    I have to ask Jeralyn to give you privileges. Sorry.

    I tell you what. Write it at your blog and I promise you I will link and quote as much as you allow me to in a FP post.

    This is a serious discussion and you and I have wildly divergent views here.

    Parent

    I thought I was missing a button (none / 0) (#112)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:44:18 PM EST

    I'm sure I'm not the only one.

    Parent

    I know (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:45:10 PM EST
    It is what Jeralyn wants.

    I would be less sparing with the right to diary but as I say, it is not my blog.

    Parent

    Or you could e-mail it to me (none / 0) (#113)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:44:25 PM EST
    and I could post it for you as a Guest Post.

    Parent
    With respect (none / 0) (#136)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:58:18 PM EST
    I think that's a fair offer but I'm not sure that's the right thing to do at this point.

    Why don't I just look for a better post to try to have this discussion in someday?

    I'm seriously not interested in being seen as threadjacking or becoming a controversial figure here.

    You saw this as a post about HuffPost I guess.

    Parent

    Come on (none / 0) (#147)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:08:50 PM EST
    I am ASKING you for the piece because I do want to air out this issue.

    I want you to have your say and I want my say to air it out.

    I think this issue goes beyond you and me.

    Parent

    honor sincerity? (none / 0) (#120)
    by Miss Devore on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:47:07 PM EST
    asking too much. all the blogs have unwritten rules, which are rationalized as ways of making some sort of quality product.

    that said, I have noticed from many old-timers on the blogs that a candidate who seems to be doing all those thangs bloggers fantasized about, is called into question. 50 state strategies, GOTV--no one gets out the vote the way Obama seems to be doing. And it isn't because of his affinity for the blogosphere. If it was,the Obama organization would encourage people to opinionate non-stop on blogs, and write incessant retorts to David Brooks or William Kristol.

    I say that, of course, as a highly valued member of this "community", and expect my comment to be deleted accordingly.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#130)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:53:22 PM EST
    Yes I am right in the sweet spot of the blogosphere right now Miss D. Everyone follow my lead on Obama.

    Actually, I am the one who is consistent in my desire for a Politics of Contrast.

    But you love Kos now right?

    Parent

    goddess no (none / 0) (#144)
    by Miss Devore on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:04:25 PM EST
    they've just been caught with their rants down, so to speak.

    blogs introduced a new form of passivity, to counter television. and heralded themselves as some great agent of change.

    one phrase of Markos' usually dreadful writing may make the MSM, but the fact that the blogs celebrated themselves before confronting the entire community of voters--th Yk thang "politicians realize they have to come to us" is one for the hubris files.

    Parent

    I'm insulted that you've missed (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:35:07 PM EST
    all the comments by Ben Masel, KenoshaMarge, myself and other Wisconsinites analyzing our primary here on this blog, in reply to diaries about it here.

    I'm just going to have to miss your comments here, too.

    Parent

    Sorry meant no offense (none / 0) (#118)
    by kid oakland on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:46:10 PM EST
    if you link to them I will read them.

    Parent
    A request for BTD (none / 0) (#22)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:04:43 PM EST
    Hi BTD,

    Would you mind fixing your italics tag in this post?  You've got an open tag without a corresponding closed tag.  It's turning the whole page into italics.

    The missing tag appears to be the closing bracket on the "/i" following your "By Big Tent Democrat" signature line..

    I have a migraine today, so the italics really hurt.  Of course, I could go lay down, but I'm a hopeless addict.

    Thank you.

    I'll check it (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:06:12 PM EST
    Not showing for me.

    Parent
    Wierd (none / 0) (#43)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:10:04 PM EST
    It was there a minute ago (SWEAR!!!).  The whole page was in italics.  Now it's fixed.  

    Must be the magic of Talkleft (or maybe too much headache).

    Thanks very much anyway, you can delete this thread.

    Parent

    How about now? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:07:37 PM EST
    It's perfect, thank you ;-). (none / 0) (#44)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:10:31 PM EST
    Please use the proper linking (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:07:23 PM EST
    I have to delete this comment.

    Please try it again.

    its an honest criticsim of a narcissistic (none / 0) (#54)
    by sammiemorris on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:16:04 PM EST
    candidate whos wife claims he not only speaks the truth, but he KNOWS it as well.

    Whatever

    "My job is to be so persuasive that if there's anybody left out there who is still not sure whether they will vote, or is still not clear who they will vote for, that a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany ... and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Obama, the Democrat said in Hanover."


    Add that to what Robin Abcarian (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:24:24 PM EST
    included in her piece about Michelle Obama's efforts in South Carolina:

    At Glori Glori, a hair salon in Florence, S.C., she said she'd bumped into a young man earlier in the day who said he'd voted for Clinton. "Who on Earth will help you?" she said she told the young man. "If Hillary Clinton gets into office, I can envision what's gonna happen, and you can too!"


    Parent
    Michele Obama will be a huge (none / 0) (#80)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:27:11 PM EST
    liability for Obama in the GE---probably worse than Teresa Kerry.
    I have actually not seen one remark of hers which I find uplifting, but I've seen many snide put downs and delusional messianic comments about Barack.

    Parent
    The first time I heard here, she was (none / 0) (#89)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:30:30 PM EST
    speaking to a group.  It was on C-Span.  She didn't use any notes, she was very direct in her comments, and I was quite impressed.  But that was b/4 NH.

    Parent
    Well, I only see the comments that (none / 0) (#92)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:31:46 PM EST
    are deemed newsworthy.

    Parent
    The problem is (none / 0) (#95)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:34:23 PM EST
    she is an outspoken, independent woman with her own opinions. Sometimes she says things that people here have disagreed with. But she's no push-over potential first lady.

    If that's the worst liability he has in the general, then I'm happy to fight for her.

    Parent

    Sometimes she says them twice (none / 0) (#104)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:39:17 PM EST
    as she did with her comment about not being proud of her country until now -- twice in Wisconsin, in both Milwaukee and Madison -- and then her husband had to say What the Other Obama Really Meant, as if the quote was a slip and not from a script.  That's just dishonesty, yet again.  

    Parent
    It's pretty clear what she meant from the context (none / 0) (#110)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:43:18 PM EST
    Trying to go after other Democrats by levying the insufficient patriotism card is not a road I think we really want to go down.

    Let's let the Republicans own the circular firing squad this election.

    Parent

    Ah, it was "just words"? (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:45:37 PM EST
    Soundbytes are how politics is done, with no opportunity for context.  Knowing that is one of the reasons why experience matters.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#127)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:51:22 PM EST
    So why is the better sound byte candidate losing? (yes, I know, media bias, irresponsible youth, rigged voting systems, etc. etc. etc.). But I thought experience was learning how to defeat those?

    Parent
    You think Hillary is the better (none / 0) (#133)
    by Democratic Cat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:55:46 PM EST
    sound bite candidate? Seriously? Come on. She wonks about policy endlessly. I hapen to love it, but I don't think it's necessarily a great campaigning style, and she doesn't have many great sound bites.

    Obama is witty, but I'm not sure he's so great on sound bites either.

    Parent

    See umpteen past threads (none / 0) (#137)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:58:26 PM EST
    on Obama Rules vs. Clinton Rules.  The rules are that Obama and the Other Obama will get more air time (see comparisons of how much time Obama got in debates vs. how much time Clinton got).  What the Obamas do with the time is when experience matters.

    Parent
    The problem with the experience argument (none / 0) (#145)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:04:46 PM EST
    is that is is self (dis)proving in this case. If she really were experienced, then why is she in dire straits for campaign cash? Why is she cycling through messaging changes so often? Why was there a shakeup in the campaign staff? Why is the campaign being beset by all these insider leaks? Some of her problems are outside of her control (although Obama has a different set of problems outside of his control too), but some have been under her control, and she's botched them up.

    This is not the sign of an experienced politician.

    Parent

    That is not the mark of experienced (none / 0) (#150)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:19:51 PM EST
    campaign management.  Campaigning and Governing are not even close to the same thing.  If they were, GW Bush would be freaking Abe Lincoln.


    Parent
    andrewwwm (none / 0) (#162)
    by Kathy on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:59:16 PM EST
    do you really think Barack Obama balances the checkbook for his campaign?  Do you think he signs the checks to the staff and looks at the budget?  Do you think he asks for receipts when people run out to get him coffee?

    Come on.

    Parent

    I think any candidate (none / 0) (#164)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:07:23 PM EST
    that isn't prudent and careful about how they spend their campaign money deserves to lose, frankly.

    Whether it's them or their adviser that tracks this, it's ultimately the candidate's responsibility to make sure they aren't wasting their own money.

    I don't think Clinton has been especially wasteful, but she's made several key strategic errors about where to spend the money, and it has cost her big. Again, for someone that claims she's better able to beat the Republicans, this doesn't inspire confidence.

    Parent

    I wonder what your charges are based on (none / 0) (#168)
    by Kathy on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:35:04 PM EST
    I mean, seriously--I've read the same crap out there that you have, and it seems to me that what they are glomming onto as "proof" of mismanagement are two things:

    1.  The loan she made to the campaign.  Considering Obama announced he outraised her 2-1, I think it was very prudent of her to loan money to her campaign.  Was she supposed to bow out gracefully?   (and as a subsection to #1, I'd like to add: (a) has it occurred to you that the fact that she has 5mm bucks she can loan to her campaign in the first place proves that she can, indeed, handle her money rather well if she can float out 5mm without blinking an eye?)

    2.  The biggest nit-picking about expenditures seems to involve what would be termed as petty cash expenditures. Someone who has lots of volunteer staff should spend thousands of dollars on pizza and donuts.  I used to work for a newspaper in town that spent a couple hundred bucks every issue to get coffee, donuts and such so that the volunteers felt welcome.  It's called the cost of doing business, and I have seen enough footage of Obama coming out of Dunkin Donuts to know he is doing the same thing.

    Lastly, and I won't number this because it's a general question: doesn't it bother you just a little bit that someone outta nowhere like Obama can raise FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS in one month?  Read Freakanomics.  It gets to a point in these things where there is such a thing as too much money.

    (and if you want to throw Penn in there, keep in mind that he will more than likely write off the money "owed" to him, as most political consultants do.  It's a tax trick, plain and simple)

    Parent

    Those are about waste (none / 0) (#169)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:44:06 PM EST
    I'm talking about choosing where to spend her money. She spent most of her money in three locations:

    1. Iowa

    2. South Carolina

    3. Big 2/5 states

    So there was none left over to spend after 2/5. She basically gambled that a few early wins and a knockout on 2/5 would mean that there wouldn't need to be any money leftover.

    It's about how Obama has opened more field offices (usually outnumbering Clinton's by about 5-1) in lots of small and medium states. It's about how she's continually writing off states while Obama defends everywhere. Finally, and most damagingly, she neglected to tap into her base and ask of them what Obama has been asking of his until much too late. Her campaign was run too top town with an over-dependence on max donors. These are all poor strategy decisions that are coming home to roost now.

    If she would have won, then it would have seemed like a smart play. But she hasn't.

    Parent

    You are now talking about strategy (none / 0) (#171)
    by Kathy on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:00:41 PM EST
    when before you were talking about checkbook; however, I'll play along:

    You are saying that in your opinion, Clinton has played the campaign badly thus far (though, also, you seem to think the race is over, so I'm a tad suspect of your Monday Morning Quarterbacking)

    That being said, if she has played the game so poorly, then why is she only within a hundred or so delegates of Obama?  Why is Clinton a handful of races away from beating him (and polling in a way that would indicate she very well might)?

    It would be different if we were talking McCain/Huckabee (or, we could dare say Romney/McCain, as before Romney dropped out, he had the most money and McCain was on a shoestring budget), but what your analysis of strategy fails to take into account is two things:

    1.  If Obama manages to get to the ge, he will NEVER get most of the tiny red states that he has 'won' in the caucuses.  For instance, unless the Mormons were right and the second coming occurs, Utah will never be red. Georgia and Alabama will not be red for him.  Alaska will not be red.  This pretty much guarantees an uphill battle for Obama should he make it into the ge, and the scorched earth statements he has made about the democratic base along the way will make it even more difficult.  So, if you want to talk about strategy, his has been a good one for winning the battle but not the war.

    2.  Clinton's strategy of concentrating on the delegate rich, most populous states, has kept her very much in the race.  It is only the media who are spinning it (and the Obama campaign, for that matter) as if she has already "lost."  2% separates them.  If Obama is such the tactician, why isn't he trouncing her?

    But, basically, the charges you are making about strategic errors, and the further charges you make about campaign mismanagement, are based on unproven data--in effect that she has lost.

    Or am I wrong?

    Parent

    Not even 2%; only 5 delegates (none / 0) (#175)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:43:01 PM EST
    between Obama and Clinton, according to the NY Times. Typically, it is more cautious about the count -- as we all ought to be, with the "soft" counts in Obama's column from the caucuses. As we saw in Nevada yesterday, those are not at all settled yet.

    Parent
    fishy? (none / 0) (#170)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:49:49 PM EST
    At $250/person, $50 million is 200K donors in one month.  Wow, that's amazing, if true.  Somewhere there's a point of diminishing returns.


    Parent
    Indeed (none / 0) (#106)
    by Democratic Cat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:40:31 PM EST
    Many people don't like outspoken women no matter what they say. I don't like much of what she has said so far, but I am going to be open-minded about her once the primaries are over.

    If Sen. Obama is nominated, but loses in November, it won't be because of his wife.

    Parent

    adrewwwm (none / 0) (#115)
    by Kathy on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:45:28 PM EST
    what I am sure she will soon learn is that folks like MoDo do not like it when other strong, intelligent women succeed.

    MO will go off like a rocket.

    Parent

    So? (none / 0) (#123)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:49:48 PM EST
    Let's call her out on it then too. There's only one way to defeat sexism, and that's to get it all out in the open and drive it into rubble, whether it's against HRC or against Michelle Obama.

    I will not vote against a candidate because they have a strong-willed, independent, and intelligent wife. Nor would I vote against a woman because she has a strong, independent, personality. In fact, I would view either of them as favorables (and I do, for both candidates).

    Parent

    How about a candidate who has (none / 0) (#140)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:02:01 PM EST
    a strong-willed, independent, and intelligent husband?

    Parent
    Any combination is good (none / 0) (#146)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:06:09 PM EST
    But saying that we shouldn't elect Democrats with strong wives is just admitting defeat to sexism.

    Parent
    but wait a minute... (none / 0) (#161)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:55:54 PM EST
    progressives didn't unite at all against the sexist smearing of Hillary Clinton, did they?


    Parent
    i seem to remember you are correct (none / 0) (#165)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:15:25 PM EST
    maybe the Obamas will have to take care of themselves.


    Parent
    your argument is that dems won't (none / 0) (#189)
    by hellothere on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 09:21:26 AM EST
    vote for a candidate with a strong wife? huh? eleanor roosevelt? mrs carter? hillary? that just isn't so. michelle is strong to be sure, but the concern doesn't lie there. it lies with her sometimes nasty attitude and comments. i for one am a lady who owns my own company and like strong women in politics. of course i like strong men also to be honest here. but i find michelle offensive and i didn't feel that way about kerry's wife.

    for another thing i don't much care for laura bush because she is so go along with her husband's policies.

    Parent

    hehehe. i like that. (none / 0) (#174)
    by kangeroo on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:40:18 PM EST
    I think she'll get better (none / 0) (#100)
    by Democratic Cat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:35:36 PM EST
    More campaigning experience will help her.

    Parent
    And yet we are told he has 10 years (none / 0) (#108)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:42:42 PM EST
    of experience in politics, many campaigns -- and apparently with the same wife.  If she needs more experience at it, that might suggest that he does, too. . . .

    Parent
    You'll get no argument from me on that one! n/t (none / 0) (#122)
    by Democratic Cat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:48:17 PM EST
    Every right wing characterization (none / 0) (#70)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:24:18 PM EST
    of black preachers since MLK (pre-lionization days) through Jesse Jackson down to Al Sharpton. Basically any black preacher that can motivate people is automatically a snake-oil salesman to the right and not to be trusted.

    So Obama can play the angry black man and lose by being the black candidate. Or he can be the inspiring black candidate, and lose by being labeled the black preacher candidate.

    Problem is that I haven't seen to many (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:27:05 PM EST
    people making that argument against him actually I think you might be the first person I've read bringing up the subject.  I lost count of the times I heard, or read of Hillary being an Angry B***h so for me at least your argument is not valid.

    Parent
    I see shades of it a lot (none / 0) (#101)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:36:13 PM EST
    Not by most regulars, true, but it's out there. But I'm probably more sensitive to it because I'm an Obama supporter.

    Parent
    I don't support either over the other (none / 0) (#126)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:50:02 PM EST
    is just that I am not prone to accept a candidates talk if it is surrounded by so much vagueness sorry is just the way I feel.  If he is the nominee I will vote for him as the choice is would be a disaster for America.  What I am mad at is those supporters on both sides that find it necessary to put down the other candidate and do not accept the bad thing of their candidate.  I know your an Obama supporter but How much change do you think he'll bring to politics.

    Parent
    That's a legitimate concern (none / 0) (#135)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:57:45 PM EST
    I guess I'm maybe more assured by his past history than you are, and less assured about Clinton's future goals given her advisers than you are, but fair enough.

    I'm not naive enough to think that either will really be able to change much in American other than reversion to the pre-Bush status quo (although it's nice to think about). But I think Obama has perhaps more potential to get things moving. I understand if you disagree though.

    Parent

    I've done some research and found that (none / 0) (#143)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:03:46 PM EST
    the advisors to both come from the same pool.  Both as you say at least getting away from the Bush era is our main concern now.

    Parent
    Right wing that may be true, but not in (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by RalphB on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:30:57 PM EST
    the democratic party.  For example, I admire Jesse Jackson to the point that when Bill Clinton mentioned him in SC, I didn't see it as racist.  I thought it was Bill acknowledging an old friend as winning there before.  Being a Black preacher isn't a bad thing for some of us.


    Parent
    Jesse Jackson rules (none / 0) (#153)
    by mexboy on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:33:27 PM EST
    I voted for him when he ran because of his platform on human rights. He has spoken out for justice for everyone! So, I too have great admiration for him.

    Parent
    Why is it a smear to be compared to Jesse Jackson? (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:33:23 PM EST
    I like Jesse Jackson, and I voted for him twice. Why does he get the angry black man rap? Operation PUSH totally advocated nonviolence and what could be more touchy feely than the Rainbow coalition?

    I also like Al Sharpton though I realize to some people that is more controversial.

    Parent

    Actually I like Sharpton quite a bit (none / 0) (#111)
    by MarkL on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:44:09 PM EST
    although I don't think I could vote for him.
    He's quite intelligent, and very funny.

    Parent
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#132)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:54:41 PM EST
    I missed that. Got a link?

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#134)
    by tree on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:56:51 PM EST
    The same names that first came to my mind too. Poor, poor white males! Always bashed and negatively stereotyped.

    Of course, as Jonah Goldberg has insanely insisted, the white male is the Jew of liberal fascism!

    sorry (none / 0) (#138)
    by tree on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 05:59:32 PM EST
    The above post was meant to be under BTD's post about Swaggart, et al.

    Parent
    Visual Evidence of the Clinton Rules (none / 0) (#151)
    by goldberry on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:20:04 PM EST
    All during the past couple of years, we have heard how calculating and inauthentic Clinton is.  She does nothing that is not carefully calibrated to produce the greatest effect and Obama NEVER does that.  No, no, NO, no.  

    Really?  

    Check this out: Michelle channels (or is that Chanels?) Jackie

    First HE cribs Deval Patrick's campaign down to the last jot and tittle.  Now, SHE adopts a persona not her own.  How long will it be before we see the kids riding a pony named Macaroni?

    Fo these people even have personalities of their own?

    I saw that pink suit (none / 0) (#160)
    by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:49:31 PM EST
    and wondered if it was from a vintage clothing store -- and definitely thought of that day in Dallas, too. Definitely a makeover; see 1998 at <http://electronicintifada.net/artman2/uploads/1/barackobama2483.jpg> (sorry, I simply cannot seem to embed url's, so I hope you see this soon, before it is deleted).

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    i wouldn't worry too much (none / 0) (#154)
    by cpinva on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:34:05 PM EST
    about the discovery, after nov., that obama isn't actually a "real" progressive. should he be the democratic nominee, he'll be slaughtered in the GE. he'll then go back to being the junior sen. from ill., not to be seen or heard from again.

    anyone care to bet real money on it?

    the "obamamaniacs" will sit, stunned, totally confused as to what happened to their saviour, and having no comprehension at all that they helped bring it about. such is the nature of blind faith.

    You're welcome to put your money where your mouth (none / 0) (#156)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:40:20 PM EST
    is. Obama is trading at 55 on Intrade for winning the Presidency. Sounds like you could short that and make a killing (Clinton is at 10 and McCain is at 35).

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    One word for that (none / 0) (#157)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:45:21 PM EST
    Day-trading.

    Intrade in February is NOT a predictor of a November election.

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    Of course it isn't (none / 0) (#159)
    by andrewwm on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:48:14 PM EST
    But the poster said that he/she wanted to make a bet on Obama flaming out bigtime. Well, Intrade is nothing if not a big betting site...

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    I'm not so sure cpinva... (none / 0) (#182)
    by Rainsong on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 05:25:58 AM EST
    "anyone care to bet real money on it?"
    I will be if Obama wins the nomination.

    "the "obamamaniacs" will sit, stunned, totally confused as to what happened to their saviour, and having no comprehension at all that they helped bring it about. such is the nature of blind faith."

    But I'm still not 100% convinced the Obamamaniacs are the whole story - thats cos I just dont trust cross-overs suddenly turning blue, not in the numbers being reported - a few % here and there can win a swing-state, sure, but in solid red states? And the caucus figures? they just don't add up right to me.  Then secondly, if even just a few % of Hillary's supporters sit it out in the GE, in just a few key states - Obama's chances look even slimmer.  

    But I could be wrong... way wrong..

    But thats what gambling is all about, huh? and the odds on a McCain win on the betting sites will be good if Obama is nominated. I'll take the bet under those odds :)  

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    you know (none / 0) (#184)
    by facta non verba on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 06:53:36 AM EST
    your post got me thinking about a comment that Obama made prior to Iowa and the electability issue. He noted that he and he alone could capture the greatest number of voters because of his appeal to moderate Republicans and independents. After Iowa, he broadened that statement to include his ability to energize new entrants. That assumption is falling by the wayside. It is likely no longer valid.

    He may still bring in moderate GOPers and independents as well as young voters however he seems to have alienated a large number of progressives, liberals and rank & file Democrats. And the GOP numbers do seem to be inflated. There are and have been letters going from GOP state party activists to GOP party members to vote for Obama and defeat Clinton. Someone called it a "two for one" Clinton now Obama later. So he is getting votes he won't get in November.

    It is unfortunate but I blame the DailyKos with their idiotic public statement encouraging voters in Michigan to vote for Romney. Gaming the system is wrong on so many levels. It is time we make the Democratic Primary only open to registered Democratic Party Members.

    Petitions circulating that the superdelegates should vote as their district voted are non-sense since almost 40% of superdelegates aren't even elected officials plus it overlooks the reason superdelegates were created in the first place, to prevent the party from making a mistake. It is a check on the voters. Originally it was to prevent the party from going overboard on the port side, now I hope it prevents us from going overboard on the starboard side.

    I think you're right Obama and his supporters will be stunned. Somehow I think they will find a way to blame Mrs Clinton.  

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    Do you have any actual evidence for your (none / 0) (#188)
    by andrewwm on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 09:19:07 AM EST
    claims? Like exit poll data or copies of these letters? All I've heard are a few grumblings on right-wing blogs.

    Exit polls out of Michigan showed no real effect of Kos' strategy, and I doubt there are very many Republicans voting strategically in the Democratic primary either. People just don't vote strategically in any large numbers.

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    then they'll forget him just as fast as they (none / 0) (#190)
    by hellothere on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 09:24:55 AM EST
    found him. he'll be so yesterday to them. that is the age today, gulp fast and on to the next video game.

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    Every story is slanted or spun (none / 0) (#166)
    by myiq2xu on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:28:26 PM EST
    It's really ridiculous.  The story about Hillary's speech in NOLA yesterday was headlined "Hillary apologizes"

    It's really sad because for several years the Blogosphere has been justifiably critical of the hackery of the traditional media.

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised, Arianna got her start trying to pimp her husband's losing Senate campaign.

    I remember (none / 0) (#167)
    by facta non verba on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:30:53 PM EST
    the first time I ever heard of Arianna Huffington, when her then husband was running for the Senate. They were right-wing as if from the 1950s, a throwback to the early days of the John Birch Society. Then the incredible occurred. Her husband gay and discredited and Arianna reborn from a conviction that something was seriously wrong. When she launched the Huff Post, I was an early fan. She lost me with the columns by Lawrence O'Donnell and Guy Saperstein, unwarranted personal attacks on John Edwards. I stopped commenting there by Super Tuesday. It has lost all objectivity and became not a pro-Obama site per se, though it is that, but an irrelevant hack site on Mrs. Clinton. If any one site is responsible for driving perhaps an unbridgeable wedge in the Democratic Party, it is the Huffington Post. Should the Democratic Party fail in November, the first blame should be cast at the Huffington Post.
    More than Obama himself, whom I just think naive and not a progressive, I came to loathe the irrationality of Obama's surrogates and supporters. They remind me of the old Hearst New York Journal whose reporting led to a war with Spain. I don't see how Arianna Huffington is going to regain the respect of much of the progressive left. Pity, the Huffington Post was a damn fine collective of progressive thought and opinion. Luckily I found TalkLeft. Here the discussion is rational and more fact based. I appreciate the efforts of Big Tent Democrat (he? she?). There is someone who lives up not only to his/her moniker but also true Democratic and Progressive values.

    The highlight portions above pale in comparison to other dabbles on the Huff Post. It is tragic how divided we are now. I fail to see how it can be mended. The feelings are too raw. I do applaud your efforts to heal. But I am going with Nader. This experience has led me to believe that indeed the system is broken. Perhaps four more years of GOP misrule will cure us what does ail us. That shocks me to say that because I have never subscribed to the theory that things have to get worse before they get better nor have I ever believed that ends justify the means.

    Shell shocked in San Francisco.

    i do agree with this part of your comment (none / 0) (#176)
    by kangeroo on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:45:12 PM EST
    "It has lost all objectivity and became not a pro-Obama site per se, though it is that, but an irrelevant hack site on Mrs. Clinton. If any one site is responsible for driving perhaps an unbridgeable wedge in the Democratic Party, it is the Huffington Post. Should the Democratic Party fail in November, the first blame should be cast at the Huffington Post."

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    actually i should say huffpo is the most (none / 0) (#177)
    by kangeroo on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:54:50 PM EST
    to blame in the blogosphere--but she's just an extension of the media now, anyway.  only she's even more sensationalistic than the traditional pencil press...  she's like the online version of tv "news" sensationalism.  with great power comes great responsibility, and she's clearly abused hers.

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    Arianna Huffington (none / 0) (#178)
    by spit on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:12:28 PM EST
    cracks me up. I say that as a Californian old enough to remember her when she was right wing. Not just any right wing, but that special breed of them we grow here in CA.

    She'd be a better governor than Arnie, for what that's worth. I generally don't actually pick on people for having been republicans before. But she's always been a sensationalist. The right here is very good at that.

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    HuffPro (none / 0) (#179)
    by TGood on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:25:29 PM EST
    I used to enjoy HuffPro when it first started up, but it has been taken over by some of the nastiest, most vile postors I've ever seen at any other forum.

    While behaving like the lunatic fringe of a cult, in their adoration of Obama, they go into rabid attacks on anyone who won't join in the horrible attacks on anybody that doesn't subscribe to the Obamamania  there.

    It's frightening to know that people can become so vicious in the name of being an upstanding American interested in the political health of this country while attacking their fellow citizen.

    The best thing that could happen to Huff Pro is that it quickly dies a death from lack of sponsorship . Smear campaigns by the owner and their resident loonies represent the very worst in this country. If they represent Obama, what  poor representation he has.