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The Rules Are What They Are: That Does Not Make Them Right

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only.

Oliver Willis writes:

In Texas, the vote will be weird. They have a traditional primary in the day, then at night there is a caucus. Now, remember, the Clinton campaign didn't have any problems with caucuses in Iowa. Then before Nevada they whined about them. Then they won Nevada so they were okay with them. Then the lost a boatload of caucus states and one again disliked caucuses.

Is it possible to analyze something without regard to how it will effect a particular candidate? Are pols shameless hypocrites? But of course they are. But bloggers do not have to be.

Is it so difficult to say that this Texas system, like the Washington system, is a travesty and a joke? That caucuses are disenfranchising? Oh, for the record, I said so before, during and after Iowa. Texas is what it is and the Clintons have to play be these rules. But my gawd, is it so hard to acknowledge these rules stink?

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    Thank you. (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by liminal on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:42:10 AM EST
    Goodness gracious, thank you.  I expect politicians to be hypocrites about these things.  If Obama were losing caucuses, I'm sure his more vociferous supporters would be criticizing them loudly.  

    But more than that, I just don't get why bloggers - especially progressive ones, you know, who want more people to vote and support voting rights and paper trails and all of that - can't admit that caucuses are undemocratic.  The Washington results (65-35 in the caucuses, 50-47 in the primaries) reveal just how dramatic the difference is, but have received absolutely no coverage in the newspapers - or even on the blogs.

    I'm not qualified (3.66 / 3) (#57)
    by Rorgg on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:09:40 AM EST
    to judge what a large, diverse group of people WOULD do IF things were some other way ("You hypothetical bastards!  I know what you would be thinking!").  I can only judge on reality.

    I think the reason you're seeing those is because it looks like this:

    +Obama +Caucus = "These are the rules in place."
    +Obama -Caucus = "These are the rules in place.  After the election, let's look at changing them."
    +Clinton +Caucus = [silence]
    +Clinton -Caucus = "The caucuses are undemocratic and irrelevant" (not all of them, but this is the campaign's line)

    That sets up for a pretty partisan discussion.  Pro-Clinton people who like the caucus system are going to just keep away from the whole mess.

    Parent

    I think it's a reasonable suggestion. (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by liminal on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:15:50 AM EST
    I'm a Clinton supporter.  I think that caucuses are unfair and undemocratic. I think that they tend to disenfranchise the demographics leaning toward Clinton more than the demographics leaning toward Obama, but not by design - just by function (older voters, the working poor, women, shift workers).  I think that the Clinton campaign should have been more prepared with a better ground game in the Super Tuesday caucus states.  I don't think that they are "irrelevant," any more than California, Ohio, or Texas should be irrelevant.  

    For the most part, my objections are moot.  I don't live in a state with a caucus.  I live in a state with a late primary.  I can see the benefit of caucuses for community organizing, but don't believe that they should be the primary means of distributing delegates in a primary race, given their undemocratic nature.  If I lived in a state with a caucus, I would get involved with the state party and lobby to change it.  

    I don't, though.

    I do think we need a different primary system, and while you don't know me, that's not a new issue for me.  Iowa and New Hampshire DO have too much influence on our presidential selection process.  I would like to have regional primaries rather than national primaries, but again there are logistical and $ issues with that.  I'm sure that some states have caucuses because the state government does not want to pay for 2 primaries - one early, one late.  


    Parent

    Not a Clinton supporter (2.33 / 3) (#104)
    by koshembos on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:47:16 AM EST
    I am not a Clinton supporter, but I am an Obama opposer because 1. he is Lieberman-Iraq 2. he is a conman. 3. his movement resembles fascistic movements and that scares the crap out of me. Joe McCarty was more than enough.

    I defend Clinton against attacks because they are racist, abusive, sexist, inhuman, unfair, vicious. As a progressive, very, it's my duty to defend the oppressed and abused. Hillary is exactly that.

    As for the so called progressive blogs. Progressive describes their beliefs, which by supporting Obama and abusing Hillary, they are not. Gang rapists is much better term in my view.

    Parent

    ugh... (none / 0) (#132)
    by mindfulmission on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:49:43 PM EST
    Gang rapists is much better term in my view.
    Seriously?  Is this necessary?

    Parent
    I hear you (none / 0) (#133)
    by Rainsong on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:03:37 PM EST
    Progressive describes their beliefs, which by supporting Obama and abusing Hillary, they are not. Gang rapists is much better term in my view.

    I agree with you, but this is the first time I've seen the view put so strongly, I thought I was mostly alone with it. Any campaign with that much hatred and abuse, is fascist.

    The fascism analogy also reminds me that among international newsfeeds, most seem supportive of him feeding direct from US based media (or ignoring it with their own troubles).

    Except for the UK/Europe, they seem to have become increasingly suspicious of him over time. They sure don't think he would be any good for NATO. I'm only guessing, but perhaps they have had more experience and history with "charismatic leaders"?  As in been there, done that grin.

    Parent

    Honestly... (none / 0) (#134)
    by dmk47 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:24:47 PM EST
    Jeralyn? BTD? Your thoughts on calling Barack Obama a fascist?

    Parent
    Blog competition (none / 0) (#44)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:48:24 AM EST
    You might have seen more of this caucus information if it proved for a candidate of their choice. I did not like Move On endorsing and I do not like the idea of a Blog endorsing. Move On having opinions and a blog site having a opinion makes them open. Endorsing closes them to being a form of a lobbysist.   Will AARP endorse next?

    If Obama was DLC and Hillary was just a candidate, would there be a push to destroy Obama?

    Parent

    I wouldn't mind it if they polled the members (4.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Ellie on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:11:38 AM EST
    ... and apportioned support by approval, rather than in an all or nothing way (eg, 20% of FeGawdSakes Let the Annoying Cat Out supports A, 22% supports B etc. etc.)

    I've been a pain in the ass (to put it mildly) about some groups I've belonged to because I've always believed in being true to the issue before party, or individual, or fleeting trend.

    The Bush / Cheney regime that hides behind a Potemkin postcard for the suckers -- I mean voters and public -- but operates a cosy backroom spa with cocktail lounge and gym for media and "both" parties have made me an even firmer believer in that.

    I'd rather abandon bartering and wheeling and dealing for rationally achieved, quantifiable measures like voting.

    Parent

    shaharazade rated this comment a near troll (none / 0) (#79)
    by Ellie on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:50:37 AM EST
    There's hardly anything trollish about it (certainly nothing in it that hasn't been widely expressed during the primaries.)

    Others have rated this comment as follows:
    shaharazade     2

    Until you can disappear people who express opinions different than your own down some scrubbery, I guess this will have to do, right?

    Parent

    whats the difference? (none / 0) (#73)
    by mindfulmission on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:39:47 AM EST
    I am not really sure there is a difference in whether they endorse or not.

    Kos has clearly been pro-Obama.

    Jeralyn has clearly been pro-Clinton.

    I could give pretty definite answers to who each blog (or at least writer) supports.

    If Kos officially endorsed Obama would it be any different than Kos clearly taking a pro-Obama stance?

    I don't think that blog endorsements would change a thing.

    Parent

    Will (none / 0) (#77)
    by tek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:49:04 AM EST
    say again, the Clinton campaign should be prepared for causes by now.  I still believe it would be better for every state to have a primary and have it occur on NATIONAL PRIMARY DAY.  It seems incomprehensible that we don't do that.

    We should also change the party's involvement in elections during the primary season.  It seems wrong to me that career politicians in any one party come out and endorse particular candidates.  It's really conflict of interest and infers that the people aren't smart enough to elect the person of their choice.  People in Congress and other federal branches should stay out until The People choose their candidate, then the Party should come in and throw all their support to the Party's candidate.

    Parent

    I disagree with (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:41:15 AM EST
    a national primary day. There would be no time for buyer's remorse. Having more than one primary day give us a little more time to vet these people.
    What I think would be a lot fairer would be to have a few days for primaries with a variety of states in each of them. These could rotate each election year. I would like to see a more representative cross section of the American people particularly in the earliest primaries. It is ridiculous to allow the people of Iowa and NH to have so much more influence than the rest of us, especially since they are states that clearly do not reflect the demographics of the rest of the country.
    Also NO MORE CAUCUSES. They are ridiculous. And undemocratic. I would hate to have to vote publicly in front of my neighbors, let alone co workers.

    Parent
    Six to Eight Regional Primaries (none / 0) (#128)
    by Manuel on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:49:56 PM EST
    with revolving, or luck determined, schedules would be best.  The system should be set up so the process doesn't drag on.  There is no reason why we can't select a party nominee within six weeks.

    The caucuses can remain but the rules should be changed uniformly for all caucus states.  The hours should be extended.  The delegate allocation should be based on the state wide, or perhaps county, counts.  There should be an option to just turn in a ballot and leave.  Transparency and ballot custody issues need to be addressed.

    "Open" primaries need to be reviewed.  Only party members, and possibly independents, should be allowed to vote for the nominee.  Party registration should be required.  Once you vote in a democratic primary, you should be considered a democrat and be subject to receiving party literature and fundraising appeals.  The "democrat for a day" nonsense should end.

    Super delegates should be required to abstain on the first ballot.  In the event no candidate meets the threshold of pledged candidates for victory, all delegates, including superdelegates, should be free to vote their conscience.  Alternatively, we can just declare the candidate with the most pledged delegates the winner.

    Parent

    Looks Rigged (none / 0) (#82)
    by Salt on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:57:44 AM EST
    But I digress, my question is, has anyone done the home work of which States and the related math that they believe either of these candidates win to become President?  I agree with Gov Rendell and Gov. Jennifer Granholm and Gov. Strickland, McCain is ripe for Pa, Mich and certainly Ohio. Add the DNC Mich. delegate mess and a real need for change. I also believe you need to factor in that if Clinton is not the nominee you have a Regan like Dem scenario and a major swing group, if Barack has done nothing to attract this constituency he won't and McCain attacks won't in fact move folks to him; we have seen an anti Barack segement of the Party emerge. All McCain will need to do is keep reinforcing and exploiting what the obvious problems are on Barack electability for the non enamored.

    And what will those Gov.s need to do not to lose their down stream State races?

    Parent

    Knowing this, is there going to be a Clinton Haka? (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by goldberry on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:50:46 AM EST
    You know the haka?  It's a Maori war dance that the AllBlacks rugby team from NZ has mastered.  They do this chest pounding berserking chant before the match to intimidate the other team, which usually just stares at them with stunned amusement.  
    Obama is very good at doing the haka for the caucuses.  Hillary needs one too.  There has to be a big-bad, meanass, coordinated haka for Clinton and someone should be organizing it.  If she can get people to the caucus with as much ferocity and coodination as Obama, this doesn't HAVE to be a total loss for her.  


    I bet Ace Smith has got it covered (none / 0) (#102)
    by Daryl24 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:44:29 AM EST
    Like when they said Obama would win the NV caucus but Hillary had Rory Reid on the ground. Ace Smith is kind of like that. Last I checked he predicted that not only would Senator Clinton win Texas but win the youth vote.

    I haven't heard anything since so I guess to paraphrase Bret Maverick "He's working on it."

    Parent

    Through reading your many writings (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:14:06 AM EST
    I have come to finally accept the fact that pols are frequently and without warning shameless hypocrites so save my worship for something less fallible and save my energy to pressure pols instead of worship them. Fight for my cause not pols!  I get it now.  It wasn't an easy thing to fully grasp at first after having been indoctrinated Americana style ;)  I started reading bloggers because they weren't shameless hypocrites.  Dearest bloggers.......there is no reason to devolve.  We've been through seven years of hell, at least at this house we have, but let us keep our wits about ourselves because soon I think it may be the only thing any of us will truly own or be able to count on during the rebuilding of everything that is broken ;)

    Hear! Hear! (none / 0) (#13)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:27:10 AM EST
    CLancy (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Kathy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:24:14 AM EST
    perhaps you can explain to me why-literally-twice as many WA state dems voted in the primary as opposed to the caucus if they knew for a fact that it would not count?

    4 times as many Kathy (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:28:34 AM EST
    800,000 to 200,000.

    Parent
    holy crap (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Kathy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:31:30 AM EST
    Even more!

    Almost a million people showed up and their votes don't count.  Hm...that reminds me of another state....or two...

    Parent

    Protest vote (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by hookfan on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:35:24 PM EST
    Many of us washingtonians resent the high handed actions of both parties that openly flaunt the expressed will of the voters in this state. Many of us, like myself voted in the primary as a protest. Neither party here have shown much motivation to really act as representatives of the actual voters wishes. I personally am very pleased that there is over a 20% swing in percentages in the results from the caucuses and primary results. The caucuses by this measure are not representative. Will it make a hill of beans difference to the Democratic party leadership here? Doubt it, but time will tell.

    Parent
    There is no answer (none / 0) (#15)
    by andgarden on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:28:09 AM EST
    the primary is clearly more Democratic.

    Parent
    more democratic, small d (none / 0) (#26)
    by CLancy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:37:36 AM EST
    I guarantee that in many states, caucuses are more Democratic. It's an important, albeit nit picky, distinction.

    Parent
    Less Democrats (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:40:58 AM EST
    voted.

    I do not believe you are right that more Democrats voted in caucuses than in primaries.

    However, you are PROBABLY right that the percentage of participants in caucuses, outside of Iowa, were probably more Democratic.

    That said, it is NOT AT ALL clear that the votes of Democrats counted more than the votes of non-Democrats. Rural overproportionment, in Nevada in particular, led to Republicans votes counting more than Dem votes.  

    Parent

    More democratic for fewer people (none / 0) (#42)
    by Cream City on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:46:40 AM EST
    is a contradiction in terms. Please clarify.

    Parent
    one detail is... (none / 0) (#22)
    by zzyzx on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:33:03 AM EST
    Some school districts in the south Sound area had levies on the ballot.  That would make people vote even if they knew that the presidential election was a caucus.

    Parent
    so what? (none / 0) (#25)
    by CLancy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:36:07 AM EST
    Washington state does not require you to be a Democrat to vote in its primary, you simply declare a ballot choice (GOP, Dem, Green, Lib, etc.). This does not mean that those voting in the Democratic Party's presidential primary are Democrats. At least in the caucus system (in the 1990s when I lived there) one declared an affiliation with the party . . . thus they were declaring themselves to be a Democrat. To me, this is important. It irks me that non-party members get to decide party contests (which is what these are; they are not "elections").

    I acknowledge that primaries are more democratic. Caucuses are simply not flexible enough to allow a large number of people to participate. The time constraints alone limit participation . . . not to mention the fact that it is often a complicated, multi-step process.

    Parent

    So Republicans crossed over (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:38:30 AM EST
    in a beauty contest primary to vote for Hillary but did not do so in the meaningful caucuses?

    Due respect Clancy, you are bordering on really making no sense.

    Parent

    Washington requires (none / 0) (#61)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:15:44 AM EST
    that you vote in only one caucus, either Republican or Democratic.  It also requires that you either vote in the Democratic or Repubican primary.

    Yes, you CAN cross-over in either primary or caucus.  The only thing you can't do is vote in both Democratic and Republican caucuses/primaries like you can in a few other states.

    Parent

    Actually... (none / 0) (#66)
    by zzyzx on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:23:43 AM EST
    by voting in the Democratic caucus, you do sign an oath that says that you will not vote in the Republican primary.  Since it is public knowledge which primary ballot you took and which caucus you joined, you could - in theory - get into legal trouble.

    Parent
    That's what I said (none / 0) (#68)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:29:56 AM EST
    I said you CAN crossover in Washington, but can only vote in one primary or caucus (so if you crossed-over and voted in the Republican caucus, you couldn't also vote in the Democratic caucus).  

    You CAN vote in multiple primaries in other states.

    Parent

    There's a subtle difference I think (none / 0) (#71)
    by zzyzx on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:37:57 AM EST
    "Yes, you CAN cross-over in either primary or caucus."

    That's where I'm saying it's not true.  You can only cross-over in a primary if you ALSO cross-over in the caucus.  It's not just that you can't just vote in one primary or one caucus, it's also that the primary you vote in and the caucus you vote in have to be for the same party.

    That's somewhat important because otherwise Democrats would have been tempted to vote in the Republican primary.

    Parent

    And turnout was (none / 0) (#29)
    by oldpro on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:38:32 AM EST
    strong for a primary...over 50%...when county auditors and the Sec/State were predicting 35% or so based on historical records and their past elections experience.  

    Huge political pressure by organized groups in Washington to get Maria Cantwell, Patty Murray, Norm Dicks and Jay Inslee to change their superdelegate votes from Hillary to Barack because of the caucus vote...the much-touted though inaccurate 'voice of the people.'

    Parent

    It has occurred to me (none / 0) (#56)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:08:07 AM EST
    that if the Washington State Democrats continue to refuse to include the primary results when determining the nominee, they should have to pay for the primary.

    We desperately need a new bridge along a major traffic route for which Gregoire is threatening to charge $7/day toll (i.e. a REGRESSIVE tax).  We could certainly benefit from not spending money on beauty contests.

    A state rep on a local talk show this week said that "the Democrats have a right to choose their own candidate any way they want."  

    Well, we as taxpayers have a right to ensure that money isn't thrown in the toilet.  If Democrats won't make the primary count, they should pay the state back for it.  Or, if they feel it's their right to choose the candidate? I'm more than happy to let them do the back room deal, because caucuses are no better.

    Parent

    heh (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:28:06 AM EST
    As Kathy points out the logical fallacy of your argument is that more than 4 times as many voted in the primary than the caucus.

    it's a shame not to count them (none / 0) (#30)
    by nycvoter on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:39:26 AM EST
    If they were going to spend the money on a primary that should at least have some delegates awarded to the primary like the insanity in Texas.  Again, I don't like the idea of caucuses because too many people get left out.  If they want the caucus for some type of party building then the prima-caucus system could be an answer but then the delegates should be awarded pro-rata to the percentages of people who participate in each.  In Washington more delegates would be awarded in the primay and Clinton Obama would have split those delegates, it would have been a much closer representation of what the people in Washington wanted.

    Parent
    If they counted, results might have been different (none / 0) (#36)
    by zzyzx on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:45:18 AM EST
    The assumption there is that the people who voted in the primary are the same that would have voted if it mattered.  When I went to my polling station in north Seattle (I voted just because I always do), there was no one else voting.  At 2 PM, fewer than 40 people had voted.  

    Obama has a great GOTV organization; it's one of the reasons he's been doing as well as he has.  I had two different people come to my house before the caucus to remind me about it, there were advertisements and reminders in the paper.   None of that happened on primary day.  

    Parent

    So Obama camp didn't care any more (none / 0) (#47)
    by Cream City on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:50:14 AM EST
    by the time you got to the primary, because delegates had been picked? Obama forces had left town? What does this mean?

    Parent
    What does it mean? (none / 0) (#49)
    by zzyzx on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:54:25 AM EST
    It meant that Obama was trying to get out the vote for the one that mattered and focused his resources elsewhere when it didn't.  I'm not sure why saving your resources for the important battles is supposed to be a negative.

    Parent
    hasn't Clinton been denigrated for (none / 0) (#54)
    by Kathy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:04:17 AM EST
    this same strategy--to concentrate her resources on the most populous states as opposed to, say, spending millions to get three delegates out of a red state?

    Parent
    Clinton had a valid strategy too (none / 0) (#59)
    by zzyzx on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:12:07 AM EST
    The only problems with it are that no one expected Obama's wins to be that huge and the snowballing effect of huge loss after huge loss.  It simultaneously forced her to need her wins to be larger and made winning harder to achieve.  I was very surprised that she didn't try harder to stem her losses earlier than she did, especially after seeing what happened to Giuliani.

    Parent
    Well.. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Rorgg on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:14:55 AM EST
    you don't see a distinction between populous state/smaller state and election that counts/election that doesn't?

    Parent
    Ding! Thanks, Kathy. You got it. (nt) (none / 0) (#89)
    by Cream City on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:20:07 AM EST
    more does not equal representative (none / 0) (#33)
    by CLancy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:41:07 AM EST
    As I pointed out, a sizable number of people would not have bothered as they knew it was meaningless. These are not new arguments for people here, they are the same ones being used to discount the MI & FL results as "representative." Frankly, I was surprised that Obama "won" the primary in WA, as his support seemed to be a little weak there compared to Clinton.

    Parent
    You are now suspended for the day (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:49:10 AM EST
    Do not comment until tomorrow.

    Parent
    Apparently (none / 0) (#106)
    by tree on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:54:04 AM EST
    a lot more people considered it meaningful, otherwise the number of voters in the primary would not have greatly exceeded the number that voted in the 2004 primary, when the Washington vote truly was "meaningless" in terms of selecting the Democratic nominee, since Kerry had already wrapped up the Demo nomination.

    Parent
    of course they stink (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by nycvoter on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:33:54 AM EST
    caucuses are ridiculous and as far as I'm concerned so are primaries that allow independents and republicans to vote on the Democratic side.  Caucuses are difficult for elderly, for people who have to be at work or those who cannot afford a babysitter.  State parties like them because they are cheap, that is not the way to run an election.  Not to mention that our military cannot participate.  A few years ago Bloomberg tried to get our primaries to be open and we voted it down, now I realize how important close primaries are.  I think you should have to commit for a cycle (if switching parties) or register originally in that party) that you are part of a party before you can help to choose that parties nominee

    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by tek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:50:03 AM EST
    on the primaries that allow Independents and the opposition party to vote.  Just a scam.

    Parent
    what do you do in Virginia? (none / 0) (#97)
    by A DC Wonk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:37:08 AM EST
    In Virginia one doen't register by party.  You simply register to vote.  Period.  I kinda like that -- I don't see where the State should have any interest in which party I affiliate with.

    I do see that that's a problem with primaries.  But, still, I prefer to be a registered "voter".

    Parent

    I am not sure (none / 0) (#101)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:43:43 AM EST
    about independents voting in primaries, but it is ridiculous to let the opposition do this.
    I would like to know why this was allowed in the first place. Anyone know?

    Parent
    I would agree (none / 0) (#107)
    by BryanNYC on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:54:23 AM EST
    but lately I'm not so sure. My boyfriend's mother showed up to vote for Hillary Clinton in the primary but it turns out she's registered as a Republican. I guess she didn't know that our primaries aren't open. It got me to reconsider my opinion. Open primaries do make me uncomfortable, but both Clinton and Obama have generated a lot of genuine excitement among non-Democrats. Voting in the Democratic primary as an independent or Republican could be an important step toward a person beginning to think of themselves as a Democrat.

    Parent
    As Cream City has told you (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:35:11 AM EST
    Republicans played the system here in Wisconsin. Just one small bit of evidence of crossover voting in Wisconsin can be found in the comments section of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. These ethically challenged folks not only played our system of open registration but are bragging about it in the states largest   paper. http://www.jsonline.com/content/forum/primary.asp

    Sadly my vote for Hillary Clinton was negated by some Republican thug with no ethics or integrity that will then proudly cast a vote for McCain in November.

    Our system of open and same day registration in Wisconsin is supposed to make voting easier for everyone. Trust the Republicans to play the system for their own benefit. May be legal, but for people that blabber on about their "values" it sure isn't ethical or something done by people of integrity. Guess those things aren't of value to them like they are to me.

    Rush Limbaugh is telling Texas Republicans to do the same. Kinda makes ya wonder if those people that don't bother to vote, and whom I have excoriated over the years may not be right. If our elections are played, corrupted, and otherwise not representative of the voter's wishes, what's the point?  

    Que: Am I Blue?

    Open Scamming (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Athena on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:58:31 AM EST
    Open primaries are a scam.  I've already posted about the 30-40% of Wisconsin that was either Indies or Reps.  Why have a party primary if it doesn't poll the preferences of its registered voters?

    Parent
    hmm... (none / 0) (#75)
    by mindfulmission on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:44:55 AM EST
    The 30-40% number would be more relevant if we compared it to previous primaries in WI.

    In 2004, 9% of the Dem primary voters were Republicans and 29% were independents.  

    This year, it was 9% and 28%.  

    So it doesn't look like there was any kind of significant effort that impacted Wisconsin's primary more than any other year.  

    Further... even IF the independents and Republicans made a difference, Obama STILL won among Democrats.

    Parent

    Here's a previous primary for you (none / 0) (#91)
    by Cream City on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:31:55 AM EST
    in Wisconsin: 1964. Go see how George Wallace did, only four years after Wisconsin launched JFK on his way to the White House. Were those the same Wisconsin voters in 1964? Tell us what you think. (Tip: See whether the GOP slate was settled. . . .)

    Parent
    And as we don't register by party (none / 0) (#92)
    by Cream City on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:33:06 AM EST
    or ask for ballots by party, we all are Independents in Wisconsin by the rules of many other states. So the percentages you cite must be from exit polls -- and guess what, part of the game here is to lie in exit polls, too.

    Parent
    Hear (none / 0) (#80)
    by tek on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:51:11 AM EST
    Hear!

    Parent
    Poll-cats said white men supported OB not HRC (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ellie on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:24:05 AM EST
    News failed to mention that Repugs might be gaming the system here to get someone they could take down easily. (Sorry not to give more specifics; passed it by somewhere while I was surfing the news.)

    Granted some white mailes -- as with other males under other categories -- might not want to throw their support behind a woman candidate or this particular one.

    I don't know what's up with expecting a lemming-like drive towards one's lookalike since there are too many examples showing otherwise. (I was an early Edwards supporter but hoped Gore would be draftable, so go figure.)

    Parent

    The system (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by fladem1 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:37:53 AM EST
    has always been anti-democratic.

    Last summer I wrote a couple of diaries designed to show the power that New Hampshire and Iowa have in the primary process.  My point at the time was that few understood how the system really worked, and how much power was being given to two states.

    The DNC's primary goal over the last year has been to protect Iowa and New Hampshire.  Lesser concerns about the essentially anti-democratic nature of the primary process have been of little interest.  In fact, the entire theory of super-delegates is to reduce the amount of influence average voters have in the selection of the Democratic nominee.

    The simple truth is that the DNC's actions in Florida and Michigan are outrageous.  Much of the blame for this must be laid at the feet of Dean, who should have resolved this issue before voting took place in Michigan and Florida.

    BTW - I give up - I have tried to reset my password on fladem three times, and the password's sent do not work - thus I post under fladem1.

    Thanks for the comment FlaDem (none / 0) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:48:01 AM EST
    Your work has been solid this primary season.

    E-mail Jeralyn about the FlaDem account.

    Parent

    Cross-Over Conspiracy In Texas? (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by BDB on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:45:59 AM EST
    Via Paul Lukasiak,

    An analysis of a 2/20 IVR Poll shows that:

    Analysis of the data has revealed a surprisingly large number of Democratic primary voters that would vote against the same candidate in the general that they voted for in the primary. Almost all are older white Bush voters, and they break heavily for Obama. Those that break for Clinton are mostly female, while the Obama voters are equally split on gender.

    This group of voters is outside of the expected model, and will require revisions to be made. Backing them out of the Democratic part of the model will tilt the numbers towards Clinton, but then adding them on top of the Democratic model should boost Obama's numbers, possibly giving him the lead.

    And also via Corrente, check out this ABC graphic about Democratic voter preferences in Ohio and Texas.

    This, of course, comes after Paul Lukasiak's analysis of Democratic participants showing that Clinton was up more than 600,000 votes among people who identified themselves as Democrats (pre-Wisconsin).

    Yeah, Obama's the democratic party's choice for the nomination.  Nothing wrong with this selection process AT ALL.

    To Be Clear (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by BDB on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:46:35 AM EST
    That IVR analysis refers to a Texas poll.

    Parent
    what were the results of the IVR poll? (none / 0) (#83)
    by Josey on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:00:57 AM EST
    Caucus shock (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Lou Grinzo on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:54:15 AM EST
    I live in NY, a state where most people who aren't political junkies really don't understand what a caucus is.  My wife and I had some friends over for dinner a few weeks ago, and one of them brought up the primaries.  Someone asked, "Just what is a caucus, anyway?"  I explained it, and they were horrified at the notion of their vote not being a secret ballot.  I agree.

    I've heard people say that there's something wonderful about joining your peers in a room and actually talking about candidates and trying to persuade each other.  I get that, and I see a lot of genuine value there.  I would like to see a hybrid system, where people can either just vote and leave (or vote absentee/early), or enter a discussion room, talk it out with others, and then cast a secret vote.  That might be one way to get the benefits of both systems without too much compromise.

    That's the Minnesota caucus (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Cream City on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:35:35 AM EST
    system you just described, as I understand it. Secret ballot -- but not necessarily after lots of discussion. Don't see how it's different from a primary . . . except, oh, it limits access more. Pesky detail.

    Parent
    I love your idea because (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:07:30 AM EST
    I have seen a caucus do healthy things as well as achieve some not so healthy things, even undemocratic things.  Sometimes people aren't up to date on how a candidate's stand will affect them locally though and sometimes people need their cult of personality likings challenged a little bit too.  So I pick you to head up the Democratic National Committee after 2008.  I would say that the majority of personality types out there though will not be hybrid caucusing with us because from birth that sort of thing totally turned them off ;)

    Parent
    Secret ballots. (none / 0) (#72)
    by liminal on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:39:20 AM EST
    First, I completely agree with you regarding the caucus system and secret ballots.  That said, I had this same conversation with a friend this weekend, who is part-way through a biography of John Marshall.  (Apparently, it's pretty boring.)  Anyway, the biography included a description of election day (in the general), when Marshall ran for Congress on his return from France.  Both parties set up on the courthouse lawn, both parties had a barrel of whiskey available for their supporters, and both candidates in the district were present too.  Voters showed up, walked up to the election official, and announced, "I support John Marshall," or "I support Other Guy," (note: I didn't read the book, so I'm not sure who the Other Guy was) whereupon all of the candidates' supporters cheered and the candidate himself stood up, shook the voter's hand, and thanked him for his vote.  Some voters sampled whiskey from both candidates' barrels before voting, of course.

    One other anecdote: two clergymen were in town, and were cajoled into the voting, although neither wished to do so.  The first walked up and voted for Marshall.  The second, though, walked up and voted for the Other Guy.  Asked about this, he said that he was determined to vote opposite of the first clergyman, as he didn't want anyone to be able to say that the clergy had an undue influence on the election.

    So, there was a time when even one's general election ballot was not secret.

    Parent

    Something non-Washingtonians might not know (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by hitchhiker on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:07:43 AM EST
    about our caucuses is that high school seniors (age 17 now but will be 18 before the next election) were the only group allowed to register and participate on the spot.

    Barack Obama's team took advantage of this by having busloads of public high school students delivered to his daytime rally at the Seattle Center the day before the caucuses . . . those kids were fired up.  

    It felt a little odd to sit in that room and watch 17-year-olds cast the deciding votes in our precinct--I mean, my own daughter was one of them.  

    I wanted her there, and I love that she cares, but I'm not going to pretend she has much of a grasp of what's at stake.

    Hybrid system fine by me (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Gritsforbreakfast on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:28:19 AM EST
    I'm not sure what the beef is: The Texas Democratic Party created this system of assigning delegates more than 20 years ago. It's not our fault our state's primary hasn't mattered in a presidential race since 1960.

    And anyway, what's so great about the popular vote that parties shouldn't let their more devoted cohorts have an extra say in the nomination?
    Are the opinions of people who are less engaged superior to those who are involved with the process, or vice versa? I'd argue the latter. We have "a republic, if you can keep it," not a "little d" democracy. The 2000 elections should have taught everyone that the electoral college, e.g., is not required to submit to the popular will - the Constitution makes the popular vote a part of the process, but not all of it.

    Finally, even states without a hybrid primary/caucus have superdelegates, which puts the same issue in play. It doesn't bother me a bit. Those are the rules: Go play the game.

    Bawahahahahaha (none / 0) (#109)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:56:09 AM EST
    The Texas Democratic Party created this system of assigning delegates more than 20 years ago. It's not our fault our state's primary hasn't mattered in a presidential race since 1960.


    Parent
    Caucuses . . . (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Doc Rock on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:34:58 AM EST
    . . . disenfranchise the poor who have no child care alternatives, little wherewithall to travel, little free time to invest, and destroy the sanctity of the secret ballot!  

    The Supreme Court has ... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:40:09 AM EST
    essentially said party nominating contests are allowed to disenfranchise voters.

    But just because they Democratic Party can, does that mean we should?

    Why? (none / 0) (#111)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:03:18 PM EST
    What was the reasoning for that ruling?

    Parent
    Without reading it (none / 0) (#114)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:12:07 PM EST
    I would imagine that the ruling is based on the fact that the Party primaries are not Constitutional constructs.  They are, in fact, private organizations.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#135)
    by Rainsong on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 02:34:54 PM EST
    Republicans do it differently, with mostly a winner-take-all, and they don't seem to have a problem with it. In other countries, the equivalent process is often called "Party Pre-Selection" trials, and generally designed for registered Party members, not just to have a say in the nomination, but also start their planning for their local/regional coordination of the ground-troops for the election campaigns.

    When they are 'Open' for non-Party affiliated people to attend, its like an information day, so people can come along, get more info about the Party, the process, the candidates, maybe pulled into the eventual volunteering foot-slog for the campaign itself etc, maybe join the Party, but if they are allowed to vote at all, they have less weight given to their votes.  

    I agree with the idea of the Super-Dels having a final say, as it is a Party issue - and if you don't like the Party, then don't vote or register Democrat, you may as well be Independent, and not Party-affiliated at all.

    There's far too much risk of gaming the system in the US Democrat side. Most of the time, the popular primary vote works fine and its not a problem - but as I think we've seen this time, there is a lot of doubt about several of the Open primaries and caucuses run to date, to have much confidence in the results.

    Besides, if the Party officials do pick the wrong one, they take the rap! LOL


    Parent

    The rules are the rules (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Steve M on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:54:55 AM EST
    but there are two reasons it's relevant to talk about how unfair the rules are:

    1. Maybe we can have a better system next time.

    2. The results of this unfair set of rules are being used to leverage other advantages in the process, like the argument that all hell will break loose if the superdelegates don't follow the candidate with the majority of pledged delegates.  Yes, the state of Texas can use a hand of poker to allocate its delegates if it wants, but there's no reason superdelegates should care about the results of a process that allocates delegates in such an unfair manner.  They should vote for who they believe to be the best candidate, period.


    And both candidates (none / 0) (#110)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:58:22 AM EST
    are well within their right to try and influence those superdelegates, as is each individual voter.  

    Superdelegates aren't solonian arbiters of truth and justice.  They are, primarily, politicians who are, ostensibly, supposed to follow the will of the people.

    Parent

    Superdelegates (none / 0) (#113)
    by wasabi on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:11:35 PM EST
    "They are, primarily, politicians who are, ostensibly, supposed to follow the will of the people."

    The superdelegates were added to make sure that the Democratic Party doesn't drive itself off a cliff.  They will vote against the "will of the people" if they see that a particular candidate for whatever reason (late breaking scandal, etc.) cannot win the election.

    I don't have a problem with this.  I can't imagine short of some huge event occuring, that they wouldn't vote for the candidate who won the most votes/delegates.


    Parent

    What I meant was (none / 0) (#116)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:13:48 PM EST
    was that their day job was being a representative of the people.  They are allowed to do whatever they like.  However, because they are politicians, they are going to vote for whomever helps them the most/hurts them the least politically.

    Parent
    What you meant (none / 0) (#123)
    by wasabi on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:29:02 PM EST
    I agree with that.  They still will vote against the supposed nominee if they see that they need to in order to win in the fall.  I am sure if they did this, then there would also be huge buyers remorse in the general electorate as well.
    Again, it would be the will of the people as gauged at the time of the convention, and not what the will of the people was in January and February.

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#131)
    by Steve M on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:02:26 PM EST
    Then I assume you disagree with all the Obama supporters who insist the superdelegates are under some moral obligation to act in a certain way.

    I have no problem with ordinary efforts to influence the superdelegates, but I am extremely tired of "tear the party apart" rhetoric coming from Obama supporters, which strikes me as no different than threats to vote third-party if you don't get your way.  Yes, people have the right to make those threats, but I have the right to view them with contempt.

    Parent

    A hand of poker? (none / 0) (#137)
    by Gritsforbreakfast on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 07:36:43 PM EST
    Texas Democrats will get to vote at the ballot box and a second time, if they choose to, at their precinct conventions on election night. That's hardly a hand of poker, just a different set of rules, if admittedly an odd one. However, those on this thread complaining about open primaries (TX has them) I'd think would welcome the idea that more committed party activists would have a stronger say through the precinct convention process.

    I've yet to hear anybody explain what's so great about relying solely on the popular vote or why more committed party members views shouldn't count more in deciding the nomination. Especially in light of problems with open primaries, Texas' hybrid system doesn't bother me a bit.

    Finally, while in practical terms the set-up would appear to favor Obama based on his recent record in caucuses, it's worth mentioning Hillary Clinton has a BIG ground game going in Texas and could do MUCH better in these caucuses than people expect. She could still win in Texas, without question, whatever the system. The D electorate seems very fluid, and I STILL know quite a few undecideds, even at this late date.

    Parent

    On the other hand.... (1.00 / 0) (#11)
    by myed2x on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:24:49 AM EST
    I don't know, how hard is it to admit that her campaign said Texas was a firewall, that if she lost either Texas or Ohio it would be over for her....

    And who said they are backing off from that? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:26:58 AM EST
    On the other hand, it is always fun to make up stuff.

    As you just did.

    Parent

    Chelsea Clinton says HRC (none / 0) (#121)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:23:23 PM EST
    must win TX per Huff Post.

    Parent
    Question for you on this BTD (none / 0) (#2)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:49:19 AM EST
    Isn't really up to the state of Texas to clean up their primary system?

    I agree that a hybrid/caucus system seems needlessly complex and counter-productive.  

    But if Texas wants to select their nominee by drawing straws, in a proprortional manner to comply with DNC rules, isn't that their right?

    I don't mean this to be contrarian but the entire system is designed to allow each state to come up with their own system.  These systems have morphed over the years.

    We can chide Texas if we want but ultimately it is up to the citizens of Texas to change their nomination process.

    FTR, it seems silly to me to get upset about either candidate trying to game the system.  That's what politicians do.

    Then how is it ok.... (1.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ineedalife on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:56:10 AM EST
    to disenfranchise entire states? States like Texas and WA make a mockery of the process and other states that try very hard get penalized. Jeez, you can vote twice in Texas. Vote early and vote often. Right up a Chicagoan's alley.

    Parent
    Of course it is up to Texas (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:51:49 AM EST
    Not sure what your point is on that.

    Are you saying because I am not from Texas I should not criticize Texas' system?

    That seems wrong to me.

    Parent

    Weird (none / 0) (#7)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:21:22 AM EST
    I wrote a full response to you but it disappeared and I had to re-login.

    Anyway, of course you can criticize Texas.  I was simply pointing out that ultimately it is Texas' issue.

    Washington is a good example of when good ideas go wrong.  The WA dems felt that the GOP was screwing them.  They created a caucus system to avoid that.  But the caucus system causes just as many problems as the primary did, especially since they kept a beauty contest primary in place.  But that doesn't change the fact that their intent was clear and well-meaning.

    Parent

    I find your comment (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:30:18 AM EST
    this one, frankly irrelevant.

    I do not no one's intentions. I criticize WHAT THEY DO.

    I doubt the DNC wanted to give Florida to the GOP with its actions, but that is what they have done.

    Parent

    let's be honest here (none / 0) (#41)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:46:38 AM EST
    Do you really believe that a large number of people in Florida are going to either not vote or change their vote because their primary didn't count?

    This is the first primary in my life where my vote actually mattered(prior to this year NJ's primary was in June).  This is true for a lot of voters.  Never stopped me from voting, eventhough I did get annoyed that it was so late.

    At the very least there will be 4 months between the Democratic nomination and the general election, and most likely several months more.  Of the people that actually care right now, the vast majority of them will move on and worry about the fate of their nation.  If they were going to vote for a Republican beforehand they are still voting for a Republican.  If they were going to vote for a Democrat they are voting for a Democrat.  If they are undecided they probably didn't have much investment in the primaries to begin with.

    Parent

    I think it won't take a large number (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Kathy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:03:01 AM EST
    it will take a certain number.

    Are you forgetting 2000?  Every vote counts.  Why alienate anyone?  This is the democratic party, for the love of God.  Every vote should matter.

    Parent

    So in other words (none / 0) (#74)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:42:17 AM EST
    who knows if anyone will truly feel alienated but we might as well give the delegates to Hillary just in case?

    That's..... convenient.

    Parent

    no (none / 0) (#76)
    by Kathy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:47:21 AM EST
    You said a handful of disenfranchised voters did not matter in the big scheme of things.  I said Florida was a perfect example of why a handful mattered a great deal.

    Parent
    Florida (none / 0) (#85)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:04:13 AM EST
    in 2000 was a statistical anomaly that won't happen again.  

    Parent
    says who (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:44:41 AM EST
    tell that to the minority voters the Republicans are still trying to keep out of the rolls.

    Parent
    I'm not sure (none / 0) (#94)
    by Daryl24 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:33:42 AM EST
    but why would the DNC even want that hanging out there? Pissing off the voters of two powerful swing states going in to a general election is living dangerously.  

    You can bet Republicans are going to remind Florida and Michigan voters of over and over again that their vote did not count in the dem primary. I don't know how many would buy it. I'd rather not take that chance.  


    Parent

    Actually, it is up (none / 0) (#34)
    by riddlerandy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:41:19 AM EST
    to the Texas Democratic Party to determine.

    In California, the Dem Party decided to allow independents to vote in the primary, the GOP did not

    The Legislature cannot require parties to allow crossovers to participate in their primaries against their will

    Of course, that doesnt mean that it isnt a silly system, just that it is the Tex Dem Party that is to blaime

    Parent

    It is up to the states (none / 0) (#105)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:53:10 AM EST
    but I think we should draw the line at anything that disenfrachises people. States are not allowed to undermine people's basic rights.

    Parent
    I thought the Nevada caucus was bad, too (none / 0) (#9)
    by Kathy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:22:54 AM EST
    and I think if there hadn't been so much media attention (the big networks have not, to my knowledge, put tons of cameras at caucus sites in subsequent states) then the margin might have been slimmer.

    What we are seeing happen in Nevada at the second stage of the caucus, with voter intimidation and outright threats of physical harm, indicates quite clearly what is wrong with the system.

    When someone is afraid for their safety, that is not a fair vote.

    threats of physical harm . . (none / 0) (#17)
    by CLancy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:28:35 AM EST
    . . have been documented? Or, is this just more bluster from one camp or the other?

    Most county caucus/state convention goers are pretty harmless party activists or young people new to the system. They're usually run by very experienced and professional people. Most elections, by the time the county or state conventions roll around, a candidate has ben settled on, so they are also fairly uneventful processes. This year, because of the contested campaign and front-loaded schedule things seem a bit different. That, and the sheer number of participants seems to be overwhelming the organizers.

    I'm from CA (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by tree on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:05:25 PM EST
    so all my recent experience is with primaries. But decades ago I lived in a caucus state and one election year I attended a caucus. No physical harm, but a lot of emotional intimidation. It left a very sour taste in my mouth. The problems of caucuses is nothing new. Frankly, they stink. Its a blight on democracy that should have been dealt with decades ago, IMHO. Theoretically they don't have to be so fraught with intimidation, but that really depends on type of people that attend, not on the system itself. Anything that can't definitively rule out emotional or physical intimidation doesn't belong in a democratic voting environment.

    Parent
    they closed down one of the sites (none / 0) (#19)
    by Kathy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:30:52 AM EST
    because the tempers got too hot.  Yes, it's been documented--I saw it on CNN and ABC, so you know it's bad if they actually lowered themselves to reporting something.

    Parent
    Please use the reply function (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:31:37 AM EST
    Stand along comment like these seem to make no sense.

    Parent
    yes, yes, sorry (none / 0) (#35)
    by CLancy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:42:13 AM EST
    I'll try not to offend the posting police in the future.

    Parent
    You just did (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:46:19 AM EST
    with your comment. And you are now suspended for the day.

    Do not comment further until tomorrow.

    Parent

    I like the mixture (none / 0) (#31)
    by zzyzx on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:40:57 AM EST
    The way I see it, closed primaries, open primaries, and caucuses measure different things, all of which are important in November.

    Closed primaries show how many people in the party like a candidate.  Open primaries can give evidence that someone is more appealing to independents.  Caucuses are a test of depth of feeling and organizational skill.

    If we switched to just having one type of election, we'd run the risk of having a bland candidate that no one outside the party really liked, a group of people trying to game our system, or a candidate that a few people absolutely love but everyone else dislikes.  Mixing them around increases the odds of getting someone who can win all three types of elections.

    Another advantage of the process is that it's a test of the candidate.  Having different rules and approaches, shows us a little about their organizational skills, their ability to understand convoluted systems, and how to deal with unexpected challenges.

    It's far from perfect, but I like it.

    But isn't the point... (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by americanincanada on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:04:16 AM EST
    of a democratic primary to pick a candidate to represent the democrats? Why in the world should we let indys, who cannot decide n a party; or republicans, who have decided another party reflects their beliefs better, pick our candidate?

    I have yet to see a good explanation for why this is happening. Perhaps there should be an entirely different, national primary, for independent and republicans to vote in, so they don't screw up ours.

    Parent

    I can give you two reasons (none / 0) (#63)
    by zzyzx on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:38 AM EST
    One is that people move over time.  You want to leave the door open for someone to become a Democrat if they aren't already. Let independents vote and they will think of the candidate they voted for as theirs and will identify more as a Democrat.

    The second is that we get some information that we wouldn't have otherwise.  Suppose there are two candidates who are similar on most issues, but one appeals to independents and the other drives them away.  Wouldn't that be something you'd want to know before a general election?

    Sure there will be some gamemanship, but there's a small number of people who are that politically aware that they know of the campaign and are willing to go out of their way to drive to the voting booth (especially in Wisconsin in February), wait in long lines, and vote just to do that.  Heck, most years we can barely get actual Democrats to show up.

    Parent

    I always thought the point (none / 0) (#65)
    by Rorgg on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:20:51 AM EST
    was to pick the best candidate to win for the party in the general election.  Which is a combination of base and broad appeal, and why there's a mixed system.

    You may disagree with that, but the reason it's like this now isn't completely accidental.

    Parent

    should be (none / 0) (#64)
    by Rorgg on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18:57 AM EST
    "shifting" sorry for the typo

    Yes, we can analyze (none / 0) (#69)
    by AF on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:30:16 AM EST
    caucuses without regard for their effects on particular candidates.  But it is not realistic to expect such a discussion in the middle of primary season.  

    You are absolutely right - these rules stink. (none / 0) (#70)
    by sar75 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:32:45 AM EST
    I would love to see all of the caucuses replaced by rotating regional primaries with proportional delegates but no pledged delegates.
    I'd donate money to a group that is working for that (does anyone know of one?)

    BUT... these are the rules, and one campaign has done a better job at understanding and playing by them than another. For Bill Clinton to suggest that Hillary could win the primary and then have her victory stolen from her in the caucus is breathtaking.  If they had their stuff together, they'd know how to win both.

    So, again, I agree with BTD, but campaigns must work within the system that exists until it's changed. Obama's campaign has done this, and Clinton's hasn't.

    Why You Hatin' on Ollie? (none / 0) (#81)
    by QuakerInABasement on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:53:30 AM EST
    BTD, I don't get what your complaint is with Oliver. You ask:

    Oh, for the record, I said so before, during and after Iowa. Texas is what it is and the Clintons have to play be these rules. But my gawd, is it so hard to acknowledge these rules stink?

    If you read aaaaall the way to the bottom of Oliver's massive 163-word post, you'll see he agrees, almost to the letter:

    The rules are wacky, they are weird, but they are the stinking rules.


    Called burying the lede (none / 0) (#124)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:31:36 PM EST
    What are the odds (none / 0) (#84)
    by Joike on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:01:11 AM EST
    that we will see any serious effort to refort the nomination process?

    If the nomination is wrapped up after March 4 or after the Pennsylvania vote, we'll have several months to go until the national convention.

    In that time, will all the anxiety created by this dysfunctional process be forgotten?

    There was a hue and cry over the Electoral College after 2000, but squat happened.

    Admittedly, reforming our party's nomination process would be easier than eliminating the Electoral College.  I still think it's possible that we get a case of collective amnesia regarding the primary.

    Something shiny will happen to distract us and we'll move on and forget the significant problems with the system.

    Not The Whole Story (none / 0) (#87)
    by Oliver Willis on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:13:30 AM EST
    What you neglected to mention in your post that what prompted me to write that was President Clinton's complaining about the process. He made that complaint in his role as his wife's top surrogate. i made clear the rules are messed up, but it's also not as if they sprang to life yesterday. People have known about this for a long time, and one of the two campaigns was clearly prepared for it.

    Sometimes things don't make sense, but you've got to deal with it. I expect if Sen. Clinton were doing better in caucus states she wouldn't have such a problem with them. But she isn't so she does.

    Actuallly addressed in my post (none / 0) (#100)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:41:17 AM EST
    The part about candidates being shameless hypocrites.

    Another example - Barack Obama on independent expenditures.

    Parent

    Complaining (none / 0) (#122)
    by tree on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:25:20 PM EST
     The problem as I see it is that the caucus system s*cks. But its always considered a low priority problem (or even a forgotten problem), except in election years. If we are going to insist that no one can complain about caucuses during the one time that their inequities become apparent to all, then we simply guarantee that NOTHING will ever be done to correct the problem. The hypocrisy that really hurts is the one that leads the candidate that benefits from the system's deficits to stay mum, or to try to shut down any criticism of the system.  Yup, for the time being, we are stuck with the system that stinks, but that doesn't mean that any and all criticism shouldn't be allowed. That's undemocratic!

    We should welcome whatever criticism exists and be willing to debate it on its merits instead of simply dismissing it by saying that if the tables were turned the criticism would be voiced by someone elae.

    Parent

    Texas primacus (none / 0) (#93)
    by wasabi on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:33:22 AM EST
    The purpose of the caucus, in addition to adding another "vote" to the total cast is to bring up by way of propositions those issues that the precinct wants to add to the county platform.  The county caucus "votes" on which issues are state-based that it wants to add to the state party platform.
    The caucus is held every two years after the polls close at 7PM.
    In my precinct in 2000, about 7 Democrats caucused.  In 2004, about 20 Democrats caucused.  There were 309 votes for a Democratic nominee that year.

    I give up : it has come to this for me (none / 0) (#115)
    by diplomatic on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:13:01 PM EST
    I am quite frankly disgusted with the Democratic Party right now.

    Here are some of the reasons I will be leaving the Democratic Party and becoming an independent if and when Hillary Clinton bows out of the nomination race:

    1. There is a disturbing lack of loyalty in our ranks.  After everything the Clintons accomplished in the 90s, they were abandoned by a bunch of ingrates.

    2. The silence from our party leaders when our candidates were subjected to media atrocities such as race-baiting, sexism, and double standards.  Where was Howard Dean, where was Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid? Nobody and I mean NOBODY called out the media while they were brutally unfair to one of our most admired Democratic women.

    3. Undemocratic, corrupt farce that is our primary system.  Allowing crossover Republicans to have so much influence over our nomination is ridiculous.  I never want to hear the term Open Primary again.

    4. Caucus system that allows a small minority of our electorate to bully and bus their way in to victory while we disenfranchise huge populations in the primary states of Florida and Michigan.
    We have allowed a very small amount of people in a bunch of red states to have more say in who our nominee will be than the  massive blue state populations that best represent our core.

    1. The liberal, so-called Democratic blogosphere.  Nothing needs to be said about this.   It is a swap full of tragedy now.

    2. 2012 is right around the corner.  Sweet release! lol

    I predict that one week from today I will officially be an "independent" and will begin to move away from politics and blogs and just focus on living a peaceful life free from the headaches of the twilight zone reality that is 2008 America.

    Elected Democrats seem (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by RalphB on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:54:18 PM EST
    to be more afraid of alienating the WAPO editorial page than the members of the democratic party.  That's the main reason I became independent after 2000.  They didn't stand up for Gore when it counted so to me they weren't worth my time, money etc.


    Parent
    I fail to see (none / 0) (#117)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:19:47 PM EST
    why I owe Hillary Clinton any sort of loyalty.  Actually I find that argument noxious.

    First of all she wasn't the President, or even an elected or appointed official.  Second of all I don't much care for dynastic politics.  People should for Hillary because of what she stands for, not because of the legacy of her husband.

    The rest of this reads like sour grapes.  Massive blue states matter but Wisconsin, Missouri, and Virginia don't?  Pretty elitist of you.  

    Parent

    There is something of a point here (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by RalphB on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:02:21 PM EST
    which doesn't necessarily have squat to do with Hillary Clinton.  Basically, party leaders have remained silent while the media has gone a long way towards picking our nominee.  It's not the first time and probably won't be the last, but it should be.  What bugs me is that it happens every cycle, witness Howard Dean in '04.

    When a republican is attacked in media, any of them, they take the media on and have won in the past.  As a result you don't see nearly the piling on against republican candidates.  There's no reason, other than cowardice, that democrats shouldn't do the same.

    Parent

    Wasn't talking about you (none / 0) (#119)
    by diplomatic on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:21:09 PM EST
    I didn't bother listing all the people who I feel have not defended or supporter Clinton that should have done so, but rest easy that you were the farthest thing from my mind.

    Parent
    duh, it IS sour grapes (none / 0) (#120)
    by diplomatic on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:22:58 PM EST
    It is a GBCW Democratic party rant.  That I am bitter and disappointed with the direction of the country and our leaders is an understatement.


    Parent
    You gotta do (none / 0) (#126)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:35:55 PM EST
    what you gotta do.

    However I don't understand why you are willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater.  

    I realize that you are upset about Hillary seemingly not getting the nod. I would be upset of Obama didn't.  But switching to Independent isn't really going to do anything for you unless you decide it's time to support the Greens or some other minor party.

    Parent

    No, I will disengage from politics completely (none / 0) (#127)
    by diplomatic on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:43:45 PM EST
    And especially from the blogs.

    I'll probably be a lot happier by following this course of action, don't worry about me.


    Parent

    swamp = the liberal blogosphere (none / 0) (#118)
    by diplomatic on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:19:53 PM EST
    ^^ fixing that typo

    Talkleft excluded of course.  This place is a good example of how to run a blog.  It is a refuge of sanity.

    Parent

    Diplomatic, agree with SOME.. (none / 0) (#136)
    by Rainsong on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 03:07:17 PM EST
    .. with some of what you say.

    I've been living/working overseas for 3 years now, so voted as a Democrat Abroad. Strangely, I rarely showed up at primaries at home, more interested this time. The disunity among Democrats has been weird to see. But seeing what has happened to Hillary from half-way across the planet, has been a real eye-opener. To people here in the UK, the abuse has been appalling.

    Whatever you think of Hillary, she is a still a high-profile Senator, and people here are puzzled at how so much * personal* abuse (like the South Park episode) can be levelled at ANY politician of Congress. Contrasted with seeing Obama Girl getting so much air-play here, many Brits roll their eyes in disbelief. To be fair, they are only seeing a smaller portion of it.

    Parent