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CIA Admits Waterboarding

By Big Tent Democrat

Not shocking, I know:

The CIA on three occasions shortly after the September 11 attacks used a widely condemned interrogation technique known as waterboarding, CIA Director Michael Hayden told Congress on Tuesday.

"Waterboarding has been used on only three detainees," Hayden told the Senate Intelligence Committee, publicly specifying the number of subjects and naming them for the first time, as Congress considers banning the technique.

In our name. Shameful.

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  • Display: Sort:
    moreover (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by Nasarius on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:01:05 PM EST
    Why in the world should anyone believe him? After playing coy for this long, they come out with "oh, but we're only a little bit bad." Yeah. Okay.

    Get ready for the torture apologists (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:15:08 PM EST
    Why do they love physical abuse of prisoners?

    Torturing (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:29:38 PM EST
    makes the worthless and powerless feel powerful.

    Parent
    Do you promise it'll work? (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:35:37 PM EST
    Yes. I promise. (1.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 08:45:07 PM EST
    Now.

    Does your position make you feel morally superior? Even if not waterboarding caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands??

    And yes, it works.

    Parent

    morally depraved. (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:06:45 PM EST
    Rightfully protective against the (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:29:35 PM EST
    evil the terrorists do.

    Tell me. Have ever condemned the car bombings in Iraq?

    How about the two mentally challenged women they just used kill innocent people??

    Come on Molly, let me see, just one time, you condemn those who do such things.

    Parent

    I thought you were smarter than that (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:47:32 PM EST
    I am very disappointed in you. Of course, I condemn terrorism. That should go without saying.

    The fact they behave in a morally depraved manner is no reason for us to descend to their morally depraved level. If anything, it should serve as a call for us to live up to our standards, not down to theirs.

    If you think they are evil, why would you want to behave just like them?

    Why do you hate American values?


    Parent

    No, it should not go without saying. (1.00 / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:40:55 AM EST
    Verbal condemnations of terrorist activities is important. To not say it while continually attacking the actions of our military and current administration absolutely sends the wrong message to your fellow citizens and to the world as a whole.

    And I do not think they are evil, I know they are. And by your use of that expression/word, "think"  instead of the definitive "know" we again catch a glimpse of the differences between us.

    And American Values are not the discarded values of Chamberlain and other peaceniks around the world. Our values are worth defending, and we should do so with all we have. To do less, as history has shown us, is to cost millions of lives.

    It is a true pity that you can not understand that.

    Be safe. Someone else is paying the price of protecting you.

    Parent

    You are now insulting my patriotism (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:31:33 AM EST
    It does go without saying that I condemn terrorism. Do not be an insulting jerk.

    George Washington's values are

    "the discarded values of Chamberlain and other peaceniks"
    ?

    Oh my! Why do you hate George Washington?

    I heartily applaud all in uniform who do not torture, who understand our American values. I heartily applaud all who served in American uniforms who did not torture, who do not advocate torture and who understand our American values.

    Sadly, I cannot applaud you.

    The real pity is you have descended into moral depravity. and do not understand our laws, our traditions or our customs and yet somehow feel morally superior.

    Parent

    Again I say: (1.00 / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 11:32:31 AM EST
    You may think it goes without saying, but your inability to speak causes problems. And since I find you intelligent, you have to be able to understand that.

    Instead you act insulted and complain that you are insulted while launching verbal, nasty personal attacks.

    The Left's general lack of verbal attacks on terrorism by the various groups of the ME is not about patriotism, and I never claimed that you were not a patriot. Instead, it is about a mistaken belief that we can ignore and negotiate with these enemies of western civilization. One of the strangest things I see about the anti-war Left is its inability to understand that the radical Moslem terrorists will destroy all the rights of women and minorities that have been so hard bought.

    For proof, I again call to your attention the use of the word "think" vs "know."

    I find your mention of George Washington humorous.

    But the determination of foreign policy became preponderantly a Presidential concern. When the French Revolution led to a major war between France and England, Washington refused to accept entirely the recommendations of either his Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson, who was pro-French, or his Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton, who was pro-British. Rather, he insisted upon a neutral course until the United States could grow stronger.

    Thank you for bringing up Washington. The anti-war Left often likes to quote him without the proper context.

    That you consider defending ourselves "moral depravity" indicates that you do not understand the meaning of the words. And I find your defense of those who fight only under your belief system laughable. Unlike you, and the extreme Right, I understand that there is a middle ground, and that the essence of all of this is to not lose our ability to understand that our actions must be controlled by elected civilian authorities.


    Parent

    You are too funny and not (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:03:23 PM EST
    to be taken seriously. The middle ground is not pro torture. Washington's anti- torture stance was in 1777, not in during his presidency. Neutral stance was not mutually exclusive to his anti-torture stance, and if anything, his neutral stance is something you would decry today and demand that he denounce Moslem extremists.

    Torture calls for moral clarity. You are either for American values or you have the same immoral values of Moslem extremists. I know where I stand.

    Parent

    Feel free to quit trying to (1.00 / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:26:56 PM EST
    re-frame the question. It remains:

    Why don't you actively condemn the terrorists??

    Parent

    I DID (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:55:06 PM EST
     Several times in fact. Feel free to learn to read. In the meantime, feel free to explain how you have not descended to the level of the terrorists since you have endorsed their morally depraved methods.

    Parent
    Do you think so? (1.00 / 0) (#126)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 08:52:26 PM EST
    What I have read is protests that you see no need, and then when it is pointed out that you have as much time to condemn the terrorists as you do the war, you wrap the cloak of patriotism around you much as the far Right does.

    And your support is based on the military doing only what you think is right, rather than the support of a citizen of a constitutional republic.

    My point remains. Open support for the objectives of the government in foreign affairs is necessary for the morale of the troops involved, discouragement of the enemy and general well feeling of the country.

    Now, if you have actually done this in some other forum or comment in TL I have not seen them, and would be happy to read them.

    Parent

    You have as much time to (none / 0) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 11:37:51 AM EST
    condemn the terrorists as you do to attack the war.

    Your use of your time is your choice.

    Parent

    Rightfully protective against the (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 10:17:02 PM EST
    evil the terrorists do??

    Now you're advocating torturing Bush and Cheney?

    Will you make up your mind, for chrissakes?

    You do think they deserve to be treated better than they've treated their prisoners, don't you?

    Or don't you?

    Parent

    What an ignorant comment. (1.00 / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:41:24 AM EST
    You either or you don't (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:06:25 AM EST
    have a mind to make up. If you do, answer the question.

    Parent
    What an ignorant comment. (1.00 / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 11:35:50 AM EST
    But then you blame the US.

    But...but...but... (none / 0
    by Edger on Fri Nov 16, 2007 at 07:56:45 PM CST
    I do my best to condemn you and Bush and Cheney and all the neocons and their murderous foreign policies for the past 50 odd years that caused 9/11 every day here, ppj.
    Did I miss a day?


    Parent
    Well, (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 12:04:57 PM EST
    I guess if you had a mind to make up you would answer the question, and if you don't have a mind to make up you'd avoid the question.

    Thanks for the great illustration of what it (doesn't) take to be a torture supporter and a Bush acolyte.

    I'm happy it's working out so well for you and Bush.

    Keep up the good work, ppj. I know it's torture for you. :-)

    By the way... you do think Bush and Cheney and their idiot supporters deserve to not be tortured and to be treated better than they've treated their prisoners, don't you?

    Or don't you?

    Parent

    hehe (1.00 / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 01:07:39 PM EST
    Your very words demonstrate the "depth" of your understanding and who you really are. Let's re-visit this demonstration that you have no idea of who the problem is in Iraq.

    Posted by edger at December 4, 2005 08:12 AM
    (I had written)Insurgents don't use car bombs to kill civilians or give booby trapped dolls to children. That is terrorist work, edgey

    (Edger replied) That is not "terrorist work" in the way you try to twist it to mean, at all. It is the work of the Iraqi people - the very people BushCo thought would throw flowers - fighting to kick the US out of Iraq":

    So the Iraqi people took two mentally challenged women and used them to kill other Iraqis...

    Truly pathetic.

    Parent

    I'm not surpised (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:06:26 PM EST
    at you avoiding the question and squirming like a worm on a hook, ppj.

    What I am surprised at though, is that though you've been told before that you're off the hook because no one expects you to get it, you don't seem to get that either.

    You don't think you should be let off the hook?

    You haven't been able to say that you think Bush and Cheney and their idiot supporters should be treated better than the prisoners they've been torturing... so the inescapable conclusion is that you don't think they should be.

    Don't you hate being tortured this way?

    Parent

    Avoiding?? (1.00 / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:12:09 PM EST
    Edgey, I am ignoring your ignorant comment while pointing out who you are and what you believe in.

    Have another one.

    The facts remain (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Edger on Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 12:23:42 AM EST
    which you conveniently ignore, that 1) before the invasion Iraq was one of the most advanced societies  on earth,

    I have lots more. Please keep on proving my point.

    Parent

    Heh! (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 08:34:22 PM EST
    Ignoring? You just answered, ppj, and you don't even know it. :-)

    Parent
    What an ignorant comment. (1.00 / 0) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 08:57:45 PM EST
    Here's another.

    Please keep poking yourself in the eye.

    No. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:41:04 AM EST
    There is no equivalence, ppj.
    White supremacist nutbars have barely grown feet from their flippers and crawled out of the primordial slime pits. They are eons behind anyone they try to demonize.
    There will probably never be equivalence.

    [ Parent | Reply to This |  1  2  3  4  5  ]
    edger (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:51:59 AM EST
    So you don't claim equilavence between the christians radicals, small though they may be in numbers, and the radical Moslems, your claim is that they are much worse than the radical Moslems.



    Parent
    You just answered again, ppj. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:13:05 PM EST
    :-)

    Parent
    What an ignorant comment (none / 0) (#150)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:31:58 PM EST
    But then you do love to demonstrate your lack of ability.

    Here's another.

    Enjoy.

    This guy defined what the illegal aliens have done to US labor.

    "Boy who saves America (none / 0) (#5)
    by matthood on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 12:34:07 PM CST

    They have no respect for American law because they claim that American law does not apply to them. Because of them my wages in the petrochemical has dropped by 50%. My health care has been taken a way because of the illegal who work with out benefits One day in 1985 in Freeport TX while my Union was destroyed my wages went from $15 dollars an hour with all the union benefits to  $10 dollars an hour with no benefits no health care thanks to the over saturation of illegals in the Industrial Painting industry by non-union contractor who willing hire them bastards for $7-$8 dollars an hour..."

    And this is what Edger had to say.

    "okay....... whatever you say. (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 01:50:44 PM"

    "yawn (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 05:25:11 PM CST"

    "Nasty Vulgar? (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by squeaky on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 05:47:42 PM CST
    Wow... must be new meds."

    "Too much of something. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 05:49:05 PM CST
    Or not enough, maybe?
    Heh!"

    "You are no liberal. You have proven that. (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 05:54:33 PM CST"

    Tell us how you love the working man, edgey.

    Parent

    You keep answering the question, ppj. (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 08:20:03 PM EST
    You only had to answer it once.

    I do understand how difficult this is for you to  cope with.

    But really, you're off that hook since no one expects you to get it or to take responsibility for yourself.

    Unless you've changed your mind and you now think that Bush and Cheney and their idiot supporters DO deserve better treatment than they've given their prisoners, now?

    Parent

    Every time you express an (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:31:22 PM EST
    opinion I feel morally superior. So the answer is yes.

    Parent
    I am sure you do. (1.00 / 0) (#107)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:21:24 PM EST
    That an about $12.00 will get you a decent glass of wine and many hotel bars.

    Parent
    Since he was a child (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:52:54 PM EST
    Bush has been fascinated by creating pain. As a kid he used to stick firecrackers up the cloacas of frogs and blow them up. As the head of his frat at Yale he made the NY Times because he would brand pledges on the butt with a wire clothes hanger twisted into the fraternity's sign. He's always been a despicable sicko, and his delight in causing other people pain has been embraced by the torturers in the CIA, although since the CIA has been teaching this to dictatorial regimes for decades it should be no surprise. There's an institutional memory for things like this.

    Parent
    Hey Bob! (1.00 / 1) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 08:46:18 PM EST
    Haven't heard those.

    Got some links? I'll put them in my collection.

    Parent

    torture is the definition of evil (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by noodles on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 12:56:20 PM EST
    Torture is intrinsically and fundamentally evil. For me, the issue of torture is a hot-button and I cannot support anyone who authorizes, ignores, or approves of torture. I want torture and Extraordinary Rendition to end as a USA policy. I want those CIA agents and Contractors that engaged in torture to go to jail. I want Gitmo and all those secret prisons closed. I want to put the stench and stain of torture in the past.

    The ACLU has asserted that the practice of Extraordinary Rendition; the kidnapping and transport of suspect to foreign countries such as Egypt to be tortured "traces its roots to the administration of former President Bill Clinton." I find it doubtful that Hillary will prosecute the same CIA agents who followed Bill's instructions and engaged in the crime of Extraordinary Rendition. Additionally, I was disgusted to learn that Hillary Clinton stated on torture, "In those instances where we have sufficient basis to believe that there is something imminent, yeah, but then we've got to have a check and balance."

    REF: aclu.org/safefree/extraordinaryrendition/22203res20051206.html

    This is a real issue for me. I expect you will dismiss my real anger that Hillary recently condoned torture and Bill Clinton authorized Extraordinary Rendition by contemptuously and dismissively calling me a "Obama-cultist". Personally, I would have been fine with most any of The early Democratic Party candidates; but I specifically will not support the Clintons because of their approval or involvement in this barbarous and disgusting activity.

    ============


    The problem is (1.00 / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 08:54:02 PM EST
    many of us don't believe waterboarding is torture.

    Now,can you define torture?

    And no, I don't want the law against torture. I want you to define torture. Here is Repack Rider's definition.

    No problem (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:33:31 PM EST
    Anything you would not want me to do to you is torture.

    Based on that, and given that the terrorists won't want to be held captive, I guess they would have to be set free.

    Do you agree??

    Parent

    legal experts do (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:08:32 PM EST
    It is morally depraved defend physical abuse of prisoners. George Washington said no to physical abuse. Why do you hate American values?

    Parent
    Again? (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Jen M on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:14:51 AM EST
    and again and again?

    There is no point in giving you links or definitions.  The laws ARE the definitions. You will ignore them, not read them, or say you don't think thats right.

    All because you want so desperately for others to torture in your name. You want others to loose their souls to protect YOU.

    Every human being knows what torture is.
    You do not.
    You are proud of not knowing.

    Parent

    Molly,, Nowonami, Jen, et al. (1.00 / 1) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:47:50 AM EST
    Your complaints and protections of those who would destroy us demonstrate much about you. I again note:

    If you will not do what is necessary to protect your fellow human from being attacked by terrorists, what do you bring to the table of "common good?"

    The answer is, of course, you bring nothing. You complain with a full stomach, a warm and comfortable home about the actions of those who protect you.

    I am embarrassed for you.

    Parent

    Ya can't believe a word the CIA says.... (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:00:13 PM EST
    i mean they lie and decieve for a living!

    I believe the criminal organization we call the CIA has been torturing people since it was founded following WWII.

    It's how they do....

    Yep... (none / 0) (#31)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:19:34 PM EST
    ...they've just been good at keeping it under wraps until recently.  And, we've been good at not thinking about it on a conscience level.  

    If don't think so, I'll bet you also think the CIA has never, ever been involved in drug trafficing, arms sales and the like.

    Parent

    The point is (5.00 / 0) (#34)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:29:11 PM EST
    to admit the bad behavior but in the best of all possible circumstances, i.e. right after the horrors of 9/11 when ya just can't blame Bush for being a little too gung ho.

    So no need to ask whether it happened after that. Now it's time to let the national healing, i.e. 'bipartisanship' begin.

    Parent

    Sheeeet.... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:31:07 PM EST
    I've probably used CIA-trafficked drugs:)

    Parent
    The only torture (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:08:03 PM EST
    they object to was Jesus'.

    And even that one they've managed to build a religion around.

    As Voltaire said: Monkeys dressed in silk.

    Wrong (1.00 / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 08:55:56 PM EST
    Voltaire was describing Catholic Bishops.... Cardinals.

    Not Christ.

    Parent

    You probobly (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:21:24 PM EST
    had to look up his name to get the spelling right.

    He was refering to humanity at large, with special emphasis on that tribe you belong to.

    Parent

    If he is your (1.00 / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 08:59:16 PM EST
    idol I feel sorry for you.

    Parent
    Face it, Jim (none / 0) (#145)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:59:19 AM EST
    There's always some uppity ferner somewhere that redblooded noncombatants like you want to waterboard, whether theres a war on or not. Shows folks what the good ole U.S of A is made of.

    And to Hell with that peacenik Jesus. Patton would've slapped his beard off.

    Parent

    Why don't you go to Iran (none / 0) (#152)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:33:45 PM EST
    and preach the Gospel of Jesus.

    Parent
    One is compelled to wonder (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by scribe on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:19:30 PM EST
    first, why Hayden (says he) came clean (a) on waterboarding (b) today (c) in testifying to Congress (d) without apparent prompting by Congress-critters and (e) went so far as to name the names of the torture victims.

    One is further compelled to wonder whether Hayden did all this on his own, or whether he had a little prompting from behind the scenes. (I think I know the answer....) If the latter, of course, we want to know the prompters and how they prompted him.

    I understand and share all the outrage - frankly, Hayden and the rest of them should be glad I'm not in Congress - but what I cannot and will not understand are the trolls who insist on trying to make light of actual torture being practiced by the United States Government for any purpose.  These trolls are, perhaps, even lower-life pieces of sh*t than are the criminals doing the actual torturing or ordering it.  

    And, as to those who think the torturers will have gotten away with something when they are not (or are only perfunctorily) prosecuted for their crimes, history teaches they'll be prudent to be looking over their shoulders for the rest of their days.  

    Finally, to those commenters who think along the lines of

    "Oh, I'm outraged by the torture but won't really pay too much attention to it because I'm just so excited Bush will not be in the White House come next January and a new era comprised entirely of halcyon days will dawn to the tune of songbirds singing the name of [insert favorite candidate here] and I'll just bounce up and down in place here waiting on that day to arrive and isn't candidate [insert name] just dreamy and the other side's a total meanie and no one could ever vote for them so we're gonna win",

    I say the following:

    1.  Stop acting like the screaming teenaged broads chasing The Beatles and crying incoherently from joy, as featured in the movie last night - "A Hard Day's Night".  You know what I'm talking about.  This is about politics, power and gaining it.  It is not pretty and it is most definitely not nice.  So, remove the scales from your eyes, already.
    2.  Just because there's an election scheduled for next November doesn't mean it will happen.
    3.  Just because Bush and Cheney are scheduled to leave office in January, 2009 doesn't mean that will happen.
    4.  Just because there's an election scheduled for next November and even assuming it does happen, does not necessarily mean that the Democratic candidate will win it.  This, because:
    (a) given their history, there is nothing preventing Bush, Cheney, Rove (he still walks the earth, remember?) and their henchmen from doing everything in their power to ensure the Republicans win it.  They held street riots and rigged the Supreme Court in 2000, and engaged in rampant vote-stealing in 2004.  They believe (it's in their legal papers) that the President is accountable to the voters at his next election - which means in his last term he is accountable to no one.
    (b)  It is not too cynical to imagine the current administration or someone working for the government would either act as a provocateur or act directly to create a terrorism event or start a new war so as to swing the election.  These thugs have already tortured many, and are responsible for over a million deaths in Iraq and elsewhere - a few more, or a new war is a small price to pay (in their minds) to continue their grasp on the levers of power.

    Grow up.  Work hard to elect More Democrats and Better Democrats.

    Time is short.

    Well, we're getting part of the answer: (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by scribe on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 11:38:47 AM EST
    On NPR this a.m. the term was (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:34:05 PM EST
    "simulated drowning."  How very civil.

    Of course (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 03:39:35 PM EST
    if you say anything about Mossad doing it, or training other people to do it, you're a Holocaust denier.

    Parent
    Now that was a leap of logic. (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 03:51:40 PM EST
    Not for JIndee it wasn't. (1.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:23:34 PM EST
    Would that we had legislators and judges (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by scribe on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 04:09:47 PM EST
    who had the love of the Constitution that this one did.

    From wikipedia, about the Filipino legislator and, later, Associate Justice of their Supreme Court, Gregorio Perfecto:

    "In 1934, Perfecto was elected a delegate to the Constitutional Convention that drafted the 1935 Constitution. After the constitution had been drafted, Perfecto had a doctor open a vein in his arm so he could sign the document using his own blood as ink."

    He was then about three years post having an attack of polio which had paralyzed his legs.

    Oh, and he was a big fan of habeas against military detention and of the rights of the accused, too:

    Perfecto's separate opinions give a clearer indication of his jurisprudential philosophy. His firm libertarian views were fully expressed in several dissents. In Raquiza v. Bradford, 75 Phil. 50 (1945), he voted to grant habeas corpus to three Filipinos detained by the United States military as Japanese spies, despite a proclamation from General Douglas MacArthur ordering the indefinite detention of Filipinos who collaborated with the Japanese Imperial Army during World War II. In Moncado v. People's Court, 80 Phil. 1 (1948), the majority refused to adopt the exclusionary rule as a consequence of an illegal search or seizure. Perfecto wrote in dissent: "May the government profit from an illegality, an unconstitutional act, or even a crime to serve its aims, including the loftiest? May justice be administered by making use of the fruits of a lawless action?"

    In Bushworld, crime-by-government is the engine of profit and lawlessness the rule.

    Uh.. (1.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:26:32 PM EST
    I think he was speaking of the citizens of his country.... Not terrorists.

    Parent
    Who Let The Cat Out (Of the Bag)? (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by john horse on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:00:10 PM EST
    Remember when Bush would not say whether the United States actually waterboarded any detainees because giving information about specific techniques would enable the terrorists to prepare countermeasures.  So I'm shocked that none of my rightwing friends are upset that this information was revealed by CIA Director Hayden.  By revealing what we do to prisoners, isn't the Bush administration giving aid and comfort to the enemy?  Or did you also not believe Bush when he was peddling that bullsh*t?    

    Sock Puppets (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:02:01 PM EST
    reading through this thread (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:17:41 PM EST
    I'm disgusted at the moral depth W's maladministration has plunged us to. The torture sycophants' phony arguments --is waterboarding torture, torture is justified by the need for security, etc and ad nauseam--flow from that moral sewer called the Oval Office.

    The lies, hypocrisy, incompetence, callousness, and fiscal profligacy of the W years will be a burden on the US for generations, making us more vulnerable, less respected, and infinitely weaker than had rational folk been in charge.

    Torture is always wrong and no amount of mindless pseudo-patriotic spin from the torturers or their sycophants changes it.

    Waterboarding is not torture (none / 0) (#142)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:10:38 AM EST
    And your belief that we should not take all necessary steps to protect this country is an immoral position.

    Many times in life we are our brother's keeper. And we must do things that we don't like. That is one of the basic tenets of civilization.

    Parent

    PPJ you're simply wrong (none / 0) (#160)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 06:01:51 PM EST
    Wrong about waterboarding, wrong that torture is ever a "necessary step," wrong that barbarity is somehow one of the basic "tenets of civilization."

    You simply don't know what you're pretending to talk about.

    You assign beliefs and ideas to me that I do not hold in order to make your debased and horrid position seem plausible. Bad luck for you, since on this thread, as elsewhere, folk see you for the authoritarian sycophant you are.

    Unimpressive.

    Parent

    Who where they (2.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:11:52 PM EST
    and what did they find out.

    It is my understanding that this technique was used on very high level targets and that it did reveal actionable intelligence that was used by the CIA and our government.

    I honestly don't have a problem with waterboarding in extreme circustances when it is in a time of war which this period was when it happened.

    I think the hullaballoo is being pumped up by people as a way to attack the War on Terror, Iraq and Bush in genearl when it really doesn't have anything to do with any of it.

    If the CIA only did it when they are now saying they did it I have no problems with it.  If they let anyone do it whenever they want then of course it is a problem.

    Somewhere in between lies the truth and partisans on both sides will assume what they want to.

    The fact that it was (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:25:13 PM EST
    a war of choice obviously doesn't factor into your thinking. Just start a war and torture it AOK with you.

    "War on Drugs" anyone?

    Parent

    Torture dealers (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:31:22 PM EST
    guaranteed they wouldnt raise a peep about that either.

    Im a sucker for a man in uniform myself.

    Parent

    Really?? (1.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 08:59:46 PM EST
    Remind me never to wear my uniform in a Memorial Day parade around you.

    Parent
    With the hood (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:23:05 PM EST
    nobody'll recognize you anyway.

    Parent
    I think I would be also (1.00 / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:49:31 AM EST
    be safe around you.

    Thank God for small favors.

    Parent

    Please note that (none / 0) (#12)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:30:32 PM EST
    the "technique" or "torture" was used before the war in Afghanistan so you can't pin it to the war in Iraq.

    Next.

    Parent

    You're the one (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:36:19 PM EST
    who claimed 'time of war' as a justification. What war was going on BEFORE Afghanistan?

    Were we at war after McVeigh bombed the federal building in OKC, btw? I guess you would have approved of his waterboarding as well, since it was a 'time of war' by your definition.

    And the 'war on drugs' has been going on for a long time now. Waterboarding for pot smokers? Why not, huh?

    If you believe that no one was waterboarded in the 'time of war' that Bush created in Iraq, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in purchasing, for a low low price.

    Parent

    If you don't think (1.00 / 0) (#27)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:00:33 PM EST
    we where in a time of war with Al Queda after they blew up the WTC then why should we even argue?

    As I stated in my first post some will trust the CIA and some won't depending on their partisan point of view.

    Parent

    Simple fact (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by manys on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 05:49:24 PM EST
    Calling it a war does not make it so. War was never declared, regardless of what you think of the War Powers Act. If it's a war, declare it. It's just wimpiness otherwise.

    Parent
    If someone kicks in the front door (1.00 / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 08:58:54 PM EST
    of your home, steals what they want and kills some of your family, do you think it has to be called a home invasion by the police to make it one??

    Parent
    Who about the ones (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:28:30 PM EST
    beaten to death, suffocated and violated with halogen light bulbs?

    It's my understanding that they weren't all high level targets.

    The "hullabaloo" about the war -- and it's whores -- is because of all the murder, torture, traumatization, displacement, and general instability it's engendered.

    Or, do you guys really believe it's because people "just hate Bush"? Whatever the Hell that means.

    Parent

    That was just (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:31:06 PM EST
    a 'few bad apples', remember?

    Parent
    yeah (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Jen M on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 03:19:07 PM EST
    at the top

    Parent
    Don't reframe (1.00 / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:00:40 PM EST
    What you describe was torture and people have been punished.

    Parent
    you honestly don't have a problem (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Jen M on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:41:52 PM EST
    torturing people?

    Why would you voluntarily resign membership in the human race?

    Torturers aren't human.

    Their supporters aren't much better.

    It's got nothing to do with the frakin war and everything to do with being the daughter of a torture survivor.

    Torture. Is. Wrong.

    I happen to think my nation should not do loathsome irredemable things.

    I happen to think my nation should be better than those f**ks who flew airplanes into our buildings.

    Forgive me if I don't jump to support your idea that we should become just like them.

    Parent

    The difference is (1.00 / 0) (#29)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:06:17 PM EST
    I really don't consider waterboarding torture.  It's mean and terribly frightening and I'm sure I'd never want it done to me but nobody dies, nobody suffers bodily harm etc...  It is the most frightening thing that can be done to someone without harming them.

    Now I can understand someone not approving of the technique and drawing a line past where I draw mine but my supporting the use of this technique in rare circumstances does not mean I should resign from the human race does it?

    I consider tortue when you cause someone massive pain in order to get information whether that be beating them with a fist, electricuting them etc...  

    Here's a video of waterboarding.  Is this torture?  Remember our own intelligence community puts interogators and operatives thorugh the technique so they can learn more about it.  Is that torture?  Should they resign fromt he human race?

    Parent

    Ready to pardon Nakamura et al? (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:22:02 PM EST
    Are you ready to pardon Hideji Nakamura, Yukio Asano, Seitara Hata, and Takeo Kita? They got sentenced to 15 years in 1947 for water-boarding US servicemen. Was it all just a mistake? A miscarriage of justice?

    Do Jag Corp officers count?

    We write Because this issue above all demands clarity: Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal...Waterboarding detainees amounts to illegal torture in all circumstances. To suggest otherwise - or even to give credence to such a suggestion - represents both an affront to the law and to the core values of our nation.

    Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, United States Navy (Ret.)_Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 2000-02
    Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, United States Navy (Ret.)_Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 1997-2000
    Major General John L. Fugh, United States Army (Ret.)_Judge Advocate General of the Army, 1991-93
    Brigadier General David M. Brahms, United States Marine Corps (Ret.)_Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant, 1985-88

    Its more than "mean and terribly frightening", its physical abuse of prisoners. Something George Washington said no to in 1777. Torture is physical abuse. If you are for physical abuse, you are for torture.

    Parent

    it is torture (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Jen M on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:26:27 PM EST
    simulated execution is torture

    waterboarding makes the body, not just the mind, think it is going to drown.

    Yes. It is torture.

    Parent

    And of course (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 03:52:38 PM EST
    if a video emerged of "Al Queda", (i.e., anyone opposed to the occupation) waterboarding an American soldier, or worse, Rush or Glen Beck, no one would say it was torture.

    Parent
    Why are you concerned about (1.00 / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 01:17:47 PM EST
    what anyone would say about the actions of the terrorists?

    Parent
    Because effective action (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:10:04 PM EST
    depends upon clarity of thought. Not upon dishing out a steady stream of jingoistic b.s designed to make the dumb dumber.

    Parent
    Jondee is defined, again. (1.00 / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:31:50 PM EST
    Your inability to understand that sometimes it is necessary to take actions to protect your fellow citizens fits quite well.

    You take everything given and give nothing. There are street signs named after you.

    ONE WAY

    Parent

    And for you: (none / 0) (#146)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:07:12 PM EST
    DEAD END.

    I remember how well you expressed your concern for "fellow citizens" when the Cal wildfires were going on. But, that was different: those were America-haters.

    Parent

    Eh?? (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:36:54 PM EST
    Provide the comments and I will gladly educate you.

    No. That's impossible. Make that "try" and educate you.

    Parent

    You are wrong. (1.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:06:20 PM EST
    Torture. Is. Wrong.

    Waterboarding isn't torture.

    But if you knew that a terrorist captive had information that would save lives, you wouldn't do whatever necessary to get the information?

    Tell me. What moral right do you claim to not take all necessary steps to protect your fellow citizens?

    Do you remember the people jumping from the WTC? Think of the choice they had to make.

    Do I stay here and burn to death? Or do I jump and die when I smash against the ground.

    Parent

    Water-boarding is torture (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:50:33 PM EST
    this issue has been decided. Your president authorized torture.

    Parent
    The issue wasn't decided (1.00 / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:50:59 AM EST
    If it had been then the Senate would have brought that forward.

    Parent
    Then why did we prosecute water boarders (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:33:05 AM EST
    for torturing our servicemen? Why do you those who serve in our uniform?

    Parent
    Whatever we did (1.00 / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 01:09:24 PM EST
    it was because we won.

    Try to hold on to that concept.

    Parent

    Ah... victor's justice (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:05:14 PM EST
    We did it because we could (according to you). Here I thought the rule of law applied to everyone equally.

     How are you different from Moslem extremists?

    Parent

    Cerainly. (1.00 / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:33:22 PM EST
    But the fact remains that this is the greatest country on the face of God's Green Earth.

    Do you disagree??

    Parent

    yes (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Jen M on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:23:41 PM EST
    and your continuing to advocate royally screwing it up is not appreciated.

    Parent
    So you disagree (1.00 / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:43:38 PM EST
    that this is the greatest country on God's green earth?

    Hmmmmmm

    Who is better?

    Parent

    and your logic (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Jen M on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:22:03 PM EST
    of me agreeing this is the greatest nation on earth and you trying to make it a bad nation you interpret to mean the opposite?

    So did you not read one single word of the response or is there some sort of problem with english? Is it your second language? You have some sort of cognitive disorder?

    Or are you indeed "DimJim"?

    What part of "yes" was so terribly hard for you?

    Parent

    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:14:41 PM EST
    My comment was.

    But the fact remains that this is the greatest country on the face of God's Green Earth.

    Do you disagree??

    You replied:

    yes (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Jen M on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:23:41 PM CST

    I replied:

    So you disagree

    And now you protest????

    You write:

    What part of "yes" was so terribly hard for you?

    What part of you saying yes at 5:23PM to my question:

    Do you disagree?

    is supposed to be to complex for me to understand?

    You are clearly disagreeing with my comment:

    But the fact remains that this is the greatest country on the face of God's Green Earth.

    Please try and keep up.

    Parent

    BTW (1.00 / 0) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:45:08 PM EST
    How are you different from Moslem extremists?

    That question was so dumb I just ignored it.

    Parent

    No, according to JimakaPPJ rules (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:00:38 PM EST
    you must answer it.

    The terrorist (which I have now condemned several times in compliance with the JimakaPPJ rules) engage in morally depraved tactics. You, JimakaPPJ, insist on engaging in morally depraved tactics in dealing with known or suspected terrorists.

    So how are you different from Moslem extremists/terrorists? (other than choice of religions)

    We are all waiting on your response.  

    Parent

    I do trust you did not (1.00 / 0) (#131)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:28:10 PM EST
    become bothered during the wait. That would truly be heart breaking.

    Your question's answer is so simple I understand that you can't grasp it.

    The answer requires you to know that this a nation of justice and that we did not declare jihad on the radical Moslem terrorists.

    Our acts were acts of defense against an enemy that has chosen to fight a asymmetrical war against those they view as unworthy of life. Should they choose to fight a conventional war I would be content that they were afforded all rights of Prisoners of War.

    Parent

    So you are no different. Congratulations! (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:39:44 PM EST
    Look at what you wrote. You talk about justice, but then you deny the applicability of the rule of law.

    Whether or not we declared jihad has nothing to do with living up to our standards or your living down to theirs.

    You make a mockery of all this nation stands for and you do it in our name. I say live up to our values, not down to theirs. We did not need to become just like the Nazis to defeat them. We remained true to ourselves and our standards.

    Clearly you are weaker than my father and uncles and their generation who fought and defeated a great evil. You would turn tail and run with fear from our values, traditions and laws because of an evil morally depraved man hiding in a cave.

    You embarrass yourself.

    Parent

    Rule of law? (none / 0) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:29:31 AM EST
    What are the rules of law when we are being attacked by a band of terrorists using guerrilla tactics.

    You speak of fathers. My father, and I believe yours, would have hung those captured, and well they should have.

    Your lawerly training is good in the courtroom, but it can not be applied to everything in life. That is especially true when the other side doesn't agree with the rules. Life isn't a court room.

    Tell me, should we line our troops up and march them through the streets of the world waiting for the terrorists to explode a bomb so that we can capture them and try them in a courtroom in the US????

    That is stupid.

    Parent

    That 's not the question (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 06:10:14 PM EST
    The question is whether we live up to our standards and not torture or physically abuse prisoners or if we live down to theirs and behave in a morally depraved manner.

    I have made my choice and you yours.

    Parent

    Family Values? (none / 0) (#149)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:14:17 PM EST
    My father, and I believe yours, would have hung those captured, and well they should have.

    At least we know where you learned to hate American values.

    BTW- Would your father have tortured before the hanging, or is that your own 'eagle' addition to your family's values.  

    Parent

    I suspect he would (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:40:57 PM EST
    have sat down and asked your father on how to do it.

    Now that we have engaged in middle school insults of each other's family, don't you feel all snuggy and prissy??

    Parent

    Sorry Dude (none / 0) (#163)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 06:19:57 PM EST
    My parents believed in the US constitution and UN mandate against torture.  They, like me, were against vigilante justice, torture, and the kind of unAmerican sadomasochistic authoritarianism you take pride in.

    It is no wonder that you think that torture is fine, given that you are proud that your father would have dispensed with long held international laws regarding the treatment of POWs and just simply murdered them.

    Parent

    More "American Values" (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 03:32:40 PM EST
    from ppj.

    Might makes right. To hell with those discarded peaceniks.

    Parent

    Yes (1.00 / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:34:31 PM EST
    When it is the US applying it, might does make right.

    Read some history.

    Parent

    hehe (1.00 / 0) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:31:25 PM EST
    how much did the gov't have to pay out after apologising for mistreating US citizens on it's own soil?

    Actually, not a penny. The fact that it paid, and what that means, seems to be too complex for you to understand.

    Like I have noted to Jen, please try and keep up.

    Parent

    Learn to read (none / 0) (#147)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:15:22 PM EST
    and think period.

    Every blinded-by-self interest, tribal egoist since the beginning of time has believed that their country was bearer of the values of civilisation.

    They cant all be right.

    Parent

    I understand that your position is that (1.00 / 1) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:44:18 PM EST
    America is evil. Fortunately, few pay attention to you.

    Simon Peres, in a visit to Boston, was asked what he thought about the war in Iraq. "First," he said, "I must put something in context. America is unique in the history of the world. In the history of the world, whenever there has been conflict, the nation that wins takes land from the nation that loses. One nation in history, and this during the last century, laid down hundreds of thousands of lives and took no land. No land from Germany, no land from Japan, no land from Korea. America is unique in the sacrifice it has made for liberty, for itself and for freedom loving people around the world." The best ally peace has ever known, and will ever know, is a strong America!



    Parent
    No America is not evil (none / 0) (#162)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 06:15:23 PM EST
    People who espouse morally depravity such as torture and physical abuse are evil.

    Parent
    oops (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Jen M on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:26:08 AM EST
    I used complicated words.

    Simulated execution is torture.

    Pretending to kill someone is to kill someone is torture.

    Making someone think they are going to die is torture.

    You want links? Try reading the ones you've been given so many times.

    You want us to become just like them. You want us to give up our way of life. Bush said 'they hate us for our freedoms' and you are so frackin scared you are falling all over yourself to give up EVERYONE ELSE'S right to protect yourself.

    Good thing you didn't live around here in '02. You would not have come out of your basement bathroom for 3 weeks. Unlike the rest of us over 18, who pretty much went about our lives.

    And if torture works so well, why were the us pow's giving out so much FALSE INFORMATION. What, you think only Americans can lie? You think our pow's lied about what happened in Vietnam?

    Parent

    Nope (1.00 / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:04:00 AM EST
    You want us to become just like them. You want us to give up our way of life.

    It is your actions and attitude that causes me concern in that regard. I find it difficult to believe, but you have finally convinced me that you are incapable of understanding that we are being attacked by a group of truly evil people.

    Laying aside the argument re waterboarding and torture because we will never agree, I will again try and educate you about information obtained during interrogations.

    The information is vetted. It is compared against other known facts to determine its accuracy. There is nothing new about this and is done by all intelligence agencies and police forces, not to mention parents checking up on kids, around the world.

    So your concern about false information merely reflects your chicken little attitude towards our country, our military and those who protect us in general.

    Parent

    your response to evil (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Jen M on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:37:06 AM EST
    is to advocate becoming evil and condeming all who do not want to become evil.

    You want to be evil.  Congratulations. I think you are doing quite well.

    Parent

    And your response is to lie down (none / 0) (#92)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 01:15:15 PM EST
    and let evil take over the world.

    And "condemn" is too strong. View with great distaste is more accurate.

    Parent

    And your responce is vote (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:25:18 PM EST
    for it and then bend over.

    Or is it the other way around?

    Parent

    because your mind can't grasp (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Jen M on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 02:54:29 PM EST
    proportionate response.

    Being as binary as you are.

    Parent

    proportionate response. (1.00 / 0) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 06:41:48 PM EST
    is about as stupid a military strategy that has ever been devised. Try and think about this.

    I have an advantage.

    I won't use it.

    Instead I will let you kill my troops.

    Or does this bother you??

    Parent

    you try SO hard (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Jen M on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:32:04 PM EST
    to advocate torture over normal and effective interrogation.  

    Why do you want so badly to make the us an evil country?

    Do you love evil so much? Do you admire the terrorists so much?  Do you long to be just like them?  

    You certainly sound like it.

    So enthusiastic to hurt people.

    (don't tell me, let me guess, we aren't talking about people we are talking about i;;egal ali.. er.. terrorists)

    Parent

    heh (5.00 / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:34:11 PM EST
    Taking necessary steps to defend yourself and your fellow citizens is a moral act.

    Failing to do so is an immoral act.

    How many of us are you willing to watch die just so you can feel "good" about yourself??

    Parent

    but you don't care (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Jen M on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 01:42:38 AM EST
    what is moral or not.

    You advocate immoral acts. You advocate "might makes right" which means morality dpes'nt matter, only strength.

    Make up your mind.

    Parent

    Taking necessary steps to (none / 0) (#156)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:48:23 PM EST
    defend the country is moral.

    What would be immoral, in the context we are now discussing and as I have commented before, is the acts committed by the guards already tried, convicted and in prison.

    What they did was for their own ego. They did it because they enjoyed it.

    If you can not see the difference between these two positions then I seriously question your ability to comprehend complex subjects.

    Parent

    You keep making (1.00 / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:36:02 PM EST
    references to homosexual sex. Please be advised that you aren't my type.

    Be you girl or boy.

    Parent

    I can see it now: (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 12:18:04 PM EST
    Looking for politically conservative female into latex and waterboarding.

    Parent
    It has been my experience (none / 0) (#157)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:50:29 PM EST
    that people talk about things they enjoy.

    Do you have other favorite fetishes??

    Parent

    Your understanding that it revealed (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 02:04:06 PM EST
    "actionable intelligence" is from George W. Bush and his press secretaries' office.

    These are the same people who told you Saddam had WMD- which turned out not to be true. These are the same people who Saddam had a connection to 9/11- which turned out not to be true. These are the same people who told you that the air in NYC after 9/11 was safe- which turned out not to be true. These are the same people who told you the Iraq invasion would pay for itself through oil- which turned out not to be true. These are the same people who told you Saddam was seeking yellow cake in Africa. - which turned out not to be true.

    What was that old saying from Texas? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice.... won't get fooled again?  

    Parent

    Wrong (1.00 / 1) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:21:06 PM EST
    These are the same people who Saddam had a connection to 9/11- which turned out not to be true.

    As you well know, Fitzpatrick in his testimony to the 911 Commission noted that there was a connection.

    Why do you attempt to rewrite history?

    Parent

    Why do you? (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 09:48:38 PM EST
    Fitz said what he said (1.00 / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:11:49 AM EST
    We did understand from people, including al-Fadl -- and my recollection is that he would have described this most likely in public at the trial that we had, but I can't tell you that for sure; that was a few years ago -- that at a certain point they decided that they wouldn't work against each other and that we believed a fellow in al Qaeda named Mondu Saleem (ph), Abu Harzai (ph) the Iraqi, tried to reach a, sort of, understanding where they wouldn't work against each other. Sort of, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    Link

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    What did F. Gump say? (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:16:47 AM EST
    So just because there was no written treaty between them there wasn't any help?

    hahahaha

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    BTW - Using talking heads (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:19:52 AM EST
    rather than testimony is not exactly a confidence builder in your conclusions.

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    Uh.... it wasn't two gentlemen that (1.00 / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 01:11:47 PM EST
    I referenced F. Gump.

    Read the transcript. See what Fitzgerald said.

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    Why don't you read the conclusion based upon (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:05:23 PM EST
    All the evidence:

    We're quite sure on the basis of the evidence we have that there was not an operational tie between Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi government on the one hand and Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida on the other with regard to attacks on the United States.

    As an aside, now you like Fitz? So Libby was guilty?

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    Fitz? Libby? (none / 0) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 05:39:28 PM EST
    Is your logic so poor that you believe that it is not possible for a person to be correct on one point and wrong on another?

    What an interesting world you live in.

    BTW - Note the "quite sure" indicating doubt.

    Just read what Fitz inside the hearing room.

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    Jim, Jim, Jim you igno... (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 07:04:41 PM EST
    Fitz is one witness. HE was not the end all and be all. You must consider all of the evidence.

    You are elevating the evidence of one witness to the end all and be all, not me. If he is the end all and be all, as you make him out to be, he must be right about Libby- QED, no?

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    hehe (5.00 / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:41:15 PM EST
    Am I to believe that if I see a 1000 people telling lies and one telling the truth that I am to believe the liars?

    That you cover your eyes to the truth is your very own problem. Not mine.

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    What Fitz said (1.00 / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:39:05 PM EST
    is completely believable.

     

    fellow in al Qaeda named Mondu Saleem (ph), Abu Harzai (ph) the Iraqi, tried to reach a, sort of, understanding where they wouldn't work against each other. Sort of, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    Again, what an interesting world you must live in if you can not understand the accuracy of that statement.


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    I hope you never serve on a jury (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:45:00 PM EST
    you are incapable of reviewing all evidence. Further you show a and inability to think for yourself and a weakness for following authority (not surprising for an authoritarian).

    Fitz was a witness, not all the evidence. Why are you so right and Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton so wrong? They reviewed all the evidence and came to a conclusion. You grasp the straw you want to hear and ignore the rest. That's a weakness.

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    Well, I have served. (1.00 / 0) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:57:37 AM EST
    Foreman, I was.

    We acquitted the perp based on ALL the evidence. Which for the DEFENSE consisted of ONE piece. The video tape made by the police that, to us, clearly showed that the citizen was not drunk.

    Now that was somewhat subjective because it wasn't of great quality, and the prosecution kept claiming that he had been staggering as he walked on the road's shoulder. We didn't see it that way.
    Using ONE piece of evidence we made our decision.

    We didn't allow ourselves to be confused by the claims and blatherings. We didn't decide that world was made up of many shades of gray and that we had to convict merely to balance the claims. We just looked at the tape and made our decision.

    The problem you have is that you think the world's a courtroom and lawyers such as you command the terms and agenda.

    You don't.

    My comment re Fitz is that his comments are part of the transcript, not someone blathering on with some biased talking head.

    And it is exactly that he didn't make wild claims that impressed me. He merely noted that the relationship had stresses, but was based on the world's oldest diplomatic rule.

    An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    And understand that if this relationship had been allowed to continue, at some point al-Qaida would have some variation of a dirty bomb and Manhattan would be a no go to zone for the next 10,000 years.

    That's why the pre-emptive strike was made. Our intelligence was not 100% accurate, but it was accurate enough to demand we take action.

    So get out of courtroom, come to the real world where the majority of us live and try to think on your own. Some things are too important to agonize over. Sometimes leaders have to make decisions that aren't based on "rules of evidence." In this case Bush was right. Not on his claim of what was. But on what would have been. He said it best, in the 2003 SOTU:

    Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option

    Clinton had an opportunity to arrest OBL, but he did not. His claim is that he had no charges that would stick. He was educated as a lawyer. I have no doubt he was correct from a legal view.

    But from a historical view, and that is where he will be judged, he made one of the most damnable wrong decisions in the history of this country.

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    I don't have time to respond to your (5.00 / 0) (#144)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:45:06 AM EST
    nonsense today, so I will be brief

    Evidence in the legal sense is merely logic applied in a court room setting, so there is no need for me "to get out the courtroom".  

    Lets try it in a science setting instead, since you get hung up on law.

    There is evidence that the earth is billions of years old and evidence that it is only 6000 years old.

    One has  to review all the evidence before deciding which is correct. YOne has to review it in its totality.

     You, however,  just want to stovepipe the evidence that fits your preconceptions. Sort of like Douglas Feith and the OSP. We know where that led.

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    And your point is??? (none / 0) (#141)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 11:05:23 AM EST
    but Iraq apparently never responded.

    but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship.

    at a certain point they decided that they wouldn't work against each other and that we believed a fellow in al Qaeda named Mondu Saleem (ph), Abu Harzai (ph) the Iraqi, tried to reach a, sort of, understanding where they wouldn't work against each other. Sort of, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    And thanks for making mine.

    Yadda yadda

    BTW - Do you actually believe that it is advisable to base the protection and safety of millions of citizens on statements that have such qualifiers as "apparently, do not appear, tried to reach?"

    Actually the anti-war Left does. And that's why I strongly disagree with them.

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    Reading your comments (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:57:21 PM EST
    eliminates all questions to your abilities that I might have had.

    tehe

    Fitz said what Fitz said.

    As I noted in another comment to Molly B, the issue isn't what was done, but what would have been done.
    That you can't understand us not acceptable.

    You just don't want to because it eliminates all of your arguments.

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    three prisoners (1.00 / 1) (#7)
    by diogenes on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:18:43 PM EST
    Would FDR have supported waterboarding of a grand total of "three" high value detainees during World War Two?  And why is this an issue wasting bandspace since the presumptive GOP candidate is McCain?  Surely you don't think that Hillary is going to waterboard people if she is elected?

    Hard to believe (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:29:58 PM EST
    it was only 3 detainees 'shortly after' 9/11 given how hard Bush was fighting for his right to torture long after 9/11.

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    Actually (1.00 / 0) (#23)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:48:36 PM EST
    he had them shot.  Simple and quick.

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    FDR hung one German spy... (none / 0) (#159)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 04:58:20 PM EST
    Btw (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:38:53 PM EST
    When exactly did the U.S stop torturing people, or training other people to torture people?

    Reagan more or less gave his o.k to torturing nuns and he's a real live American he-ro ridin' off into the sunset.

    Pssst (none / 0) (#19)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:40:20 PM EST
    Reagan is dead.

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    And he made the avaricious (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:47:47 PM EST
    and those living in black and white Capt America fantasy worlds feel better about themselves.

    That kind of therapy for a nation you cant buy.

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    school of the americas (none / 0) (#21)
    by Jen M on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:44:44 PM EST
    is not.

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    I'm just referring (none / 0) (#24)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:49:27 PM EST
    to the line that Reagan is a 'real-live American hero'.

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    Whats the difference (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:53:35 PM EST
    What was ever the difference?

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    He can't be (none / 0) (#26)
    by Warren Terrer on Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 01:56:03 PM EST
    a real live anything if he's dead. That's all. Not a major point.

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