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Dean: Candidates Can Veto Revote Plan

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

While I earlier criticized the Clinton campaign's work on revoting Michigan and Florida, let me reserve my most serious criticism for the work of the DNC on this, particularly Howard Dean. What I find hilarious is the notion that Howard Dean will somehow step in and "end the campaign," when he can not even step in and lead on this, where there is an obvious need for Party leadership. Instead, Dean says things like this:

[T]oday on CNN Howard Dean said the DNC wouldn't back any plan that isn't favored by both campaigns: "We’d like to do it in a way that’s fair, that both sides believe is fair. Fair to the voters but also fair to the campaigns."

So Dean will do nothing, lead nothing, help with nothing. What a disaster the DNC is.

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    BTD when was it we (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:42:16 PM EST
    had a thread on the Rules 20 and 21?  My reading on this is that this should be a process between the FDC and the DNC and not the candidates.

    Yep (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:45:10 PM EST
    Dean is a fraud on this.

    Parent
    One can only hope (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:47:47 PM EST
    for the best.

    Parent
    is it possible (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:54:05 PM EST
    they think they can use the lack of a revote to force the seating of the delegates as is?
    just asking.


    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by ghost2 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:49:03 PM EST
    Didn't DFA stand for Dean for American, and now his brother is heading it, and bashing Hillary Clinton?  And you may note that Dean hasn't commented on that or on Donna Brazile's absolutely shameful conduct.

    Dean is a fraud and a hack.

    Parent

    Do we know for certain (none / 0) (#67)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:35:50 PM EST
    that Dean isn't doing anything constructive behind the scenes?  I have no clue, just askin', but it seems at least possible that he's decided it's better to be bland and noncommittal in public statements in order to avoid publicly backing either camp into a corner.

    He's not really ever been known as a mild-mannered pushover, so I have a hard time buying the image of him dithering and wringing his hands on the sidelines.  But as I say, I know nuthin here.

    Parent

    He Supports Obama (none / 0) (#68)
    by dissenter on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:40:27 PM EST
    How do we know that? (none / 0) (#72)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:49:23 PM EST
    Whatever the case, (none / 0) (#91)
    by 0 politico on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:05:50 PM EST
    it sounds like a failure of leadership.

    Parent
    he should be... (none / 0) (#92)
    by DudeE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:11:11 PM EST
    ...if he's not already working behind the scenes.  But throwing some half-baked plan over the fence and claiming the candidates can veto if they don't like is a disaster.  Clearly there is now public perception at play if one or the other camp doesn't like Dean's method of splitting the baby.

    The responsible way to do this is to broker private talks with the candidates to propose a mutually agreeable solutions and then release it for public consumption.

    Parent

    Now that this is out there (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by AF on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:43:55 PM EST
    The Obama campaign can no longer hold to its position that it will accept whatever the DNC decides.  If it doesn't like mail-in primaries, it has to make a good faith counter-proposal.  

    Splitting the delegates 50/50 is a non-starter.

    They want to stall (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by ghost2 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:50:52 PM EST
    and then they will advocate caucuses. And blame Hillary Clinton every day for anything that goes wrong.  

    What they want is caucus with a chance for their supporters to create choas and plenty of cheating opportunities.  

    Gee, we should think two steps ahead.  

    Parent

    Caucuses are a legitimate counterproposal (none / 0) (#40)
    by AF on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:04:13 PM EST
    But it has to be a real proposal.  They need to advocate in a timely manner and work out the logistics.  And explain clearly why mail-in primaries are unacceptable.

    Parent
    ha (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by dissenter on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:05:49 PM EST
    Let's disenfranchise the people that have already voted by adding insult to injury. Ya, that will work.

    Parent
    The only people (none / 0) (#69)
    by JJE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:44:41 PM EST
    who hate caucuses are fervent Clinton supporters.  Many states have done them for over 100 years and nobody has complained.  Nobody else will care if it's a caucus not a primary.

    Parent
    Yes get over (none / 0) (#71)
    by RalphB on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:48:23 PM EST
    2 million people to caucus in a few location in FL.  What a stupid idea.

    Parent
    Stupid it may be (none / 0) (#77)
    by JJE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:55:33 PM EST
    But the time to whine about it has long since passed.

    Parent
    Wrong (none / 0) (#76)
    by spit on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:54:34 PM EST
    I've hated caucuses for a long time. Has nothing to do with any support or lack thereof of any candidate -- frankly, both of these candidates are unimpressive as hell to me.

    A process that keeps turnout low because tons of voters simply cannot participate is unacceptable to me. And nobody should be open to intimidation or whatnot via a process that denies them a secret ballot.


    Parent

    All true in principle (none / 0) (#78)
    by JJE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:56:36 PM EST
    and a good argument against them for next time.  But not a valid concern when a solution needs to be found ASAP.

    Parent
    A result (none / 0) (#80)
    by spit on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:05:19 PM EST
    where a high turnout primary is replaced by a low turnout caucus isn't going to be seen as legitimate either.

    Parent
    A horrible and stupid solution is not better (none / 0) (#84)
    by RalphB on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:47:08 PM EST
    than none and fighting it out, unless of course you are a coward or worse.

    Parent
    that's bull! (none / 0) (#89)
    by hellothere on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 06:58:26 PM EST
    caucuses are unfair! period!

    Parent
    They are not. (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by ghost2 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:07:14 PM EST
    They are so open to being manipulated, and they really disenfranchise the soldiers overseas, the caretakers, the poor, the people with 2 or 3 jobs, the elderly, shift workders, firefighters, police, the list goes on and on.

    It's not funny.  Caucusing is a farce.

    Parent

    I know it isn't funny (none / 0) (#48)
    by dissenter on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:09:03 PM EST
    I thought that was clear but maybe not. I suggesting it would be a further farce.

    Parent
    You can try to hold that line (none / 0) (#54)
    by AF on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:12:15 PM EST
    But given that many states that didn't choose to violate the DNC rules hold caucuses, it's not going to work.  

    Caucuses aren't ideal, but they're "democratic enough."

    Parent

    They are a joke (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by dissenter on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:13:46 PM EST
    The time to make the case against this (none / 0) (#70)
    by JJE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:46:01 PM EST
    was in November in December, but we heard nothing.  They are a well-established mechanism and complaining about them now just looks like sour grapes.

    Parent
    so we're punishing "states"? (none / 0) (#94)
    by DudeE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:16:55 PM EST
    like the "state" chose to vote early so we punsih the "state" for not abiding by the rules for "states"

    in reality, states do not make decisions - people do.  states cannot be penalized - only voters.  this isn't an abstraction.

    Parent

    And to think.... (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Key on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:45:06 PM EST
    I actually voted for the guy last time around.  He's been really good on a lot of issues, but not on this one.

    I have a snarky suggestion.  Instead of doing a re-vote, why not simply do a re-count?  (Obviously this wouldn't work).

    If I were Clinton, I would say a re-vote now or we go to the convention and officially submit a request that the Florida and Michigan delegates be seated.

    Do you really think the party will want to risk loosing Florida and Michigan in the general election because people in those states feel like the party doesn't include them in the nominating process?

    My guess is that the party will seat the delegates.  If they don't, then maybe it isn't mature enough or ready to lead this nation out of the mess created over the last 7 years.

    Oh, and so much for Obama's unity crap.

    hmm. It's not like we've never had a floor fight. (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by katiebird on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:47:55 PM EST
    Most people don't think of Dean.  Around my office, Obama's taking the blame for this mess.

    And people've noticed.

    Parent

    Why would the party lose (none / 0) (#10)
    by Seth90212 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:48:44 PM EST
    those states over this? democratic voters are going to punish the party by staying home? this is a non-issue. winning or losing those states won't have anything to do with this, imo.

    Parent
    because (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by ghost2 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:02:43 PM EST
    democratic party has become nothing more than a collection of hacks and interest groups.  That's why.  

    Hasn't the past 8, heck past 16 years taught every one that?  They still dislike Bill Clinton because he showed that he could win, even with the worst of GOP thrown against him and win it twice.  And remember Clinton came into the race when George Bush Sr. was at 90% in the polls, and had just won a war.  That was the year when lots of democratic politicians (almost the whole 88 crowd, including kennedy) had decided against running, b/c they thought no one can defeat George Bush.  

    People like Kennedy, Daschle, and Kerry resent that.  Because, heck, George Bush has totally bullied them and taken over in the past 8 years, and they havne't been able to say 'peep'.  They are afraid that in the event of a Clinton win, they would be irrelevant and also exposed yet again for utter incompetence.

    Any surprise that Bill Bradley (look at DailyHowler for documentation of his lies against Al Gore) is now backing the Obama campaign?  Ivory tower fake progessives are all grouping together.  

    At the beginning of this campaign, some sources said that Bill considered it a harder task for Hillary to win the nomination than to win the general.  I remember it, b/c I completely agreed with it.

    If you are bullied or abused, a democrat is like a parent/counsellor who always suggests the fault lies with you.  You must have done something wrong.  The democratic party heads never have the fortitude to stand for what is right, and let the chips fall where they are.  They are not good at sticking together either.  The result is the farce we see now.

    Parent

    polls (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by DudeE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:19:53 PM EST
    "democratic voters are going to punish the party by staying home? this is a non-issue."

    Hardly - a poll of FL Dem primary voters found that if delegates aren't seated, 5% will stay home and 14% will consider voting Republican in November.  Wave buhbye to Florida in the Dem column.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#19)
    by cmugirl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:53:37 PM EST
    they won't stay home, but I can tell you, being from Michigan, that lots of people I know will pull the lever for McCain instead of Obama.

    Parent
    MSNBC (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:18:28 PM EST
    Again... I don't know why I do it to myself, I was just listening.  They say AA's and the youth will stay home.  Embittered elderly wimin will get over it and vote for Obama and her democratic base will always vote Dem, there is no way they would stay home.  I changed the channel.

    Parent
    Well they are going to find out they are wrong (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by dissenter on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:19:29 PM EST
    Bigtime.

    Parent
    I hope they're only wrong (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by CST on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:22:51 PM EST
    About people staying home, not people coming out to vote.  Listen, this election is bigger than any one candidate.  It's about changing the administration in charge, not just the president.

    Parent
    I'll vote (none / 0) (#28)
    by Step Beyond on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:58:47 PM EST
    I'm in Florida. I stated last summer that I would still vote on other races/amendments. But I will not vote for whoever the Dem nominee is if I was denied my vote. I'll just skip that race as I'd rather poke an eye out than vote for McCain.

    Parent
    That may be... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Seth90212 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:58:48 PM EST
    And many will pull the lever for Obama over McCain. My point is, none of it will have much to do with this "controversy" that is created by Internet bloggers.

    Parent
    Not many (none / 0) (#53)
    by cmugirl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:12:06 PM EST
    if you believe the polls

    Parent
    are you kidding? many will pull the (none / 0) (#90)
    by hellothere on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:00:55 PM EST
    lever for another besides obama! write in, nader, or mccain. count on it

    Parent
    ah i get it now... (none / 0) (#96)
    by DudeE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:21:02 PM EST
    FL is a 'non-issue' if you're an Obama supporter

    Parent
    I used to like him also. (none / 0) (#17)
    by Step Beyond on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:51:43 PM EST
    Dean's position has been that they aren't going to lose voters over this. He said that last year and I doubt he has changed his mind about it. I'm sure that is what the Dem leadership is telling themselves over and over again.

    I think he's wrong. But then again they lost my vote last summer when they started this mess.


    Parent

    unhappy too (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by kris1111 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:47:22 PM EST
    This business of not letting Florida or Michigan voters have any say makes no sense.  Yes, you are drawing in new young voters for Barack but many of his wins are from states that often go to republicans.  Meanwhile, large swatches of people who traditional support democrats are shut out.  I see this as a DNC created problem. I see no good reason why iowa or new hampshire need to go first and actually think it would be better if they didn't.  Also, what is with Texas-where Hillary wins the popular vote and Barck wins the caucuses-not sure that is representative either.

    The time to have this conversation was.... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Blue Neponset on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:58:04 PM EST
    ...a few years ago, not while the process is in motion.  If Clinton can't win with the rules as they are then she can't win.   I don't see how that is the DNC's fault.  

    Parent
    Have you read the rules? (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:58:55 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#35)
    by Blue Neponset on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:00:33 PM EST
    Then why do you call it a fantasy? (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:01:16 PM EST
    When did I do that? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Blue Neponset on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:02:49 PM EST
    I answered in the wrong comment that time. (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:05:47 PM EST
    Here I was going to say that a lot of the problem lies in that the DNC did not properly applied them and therefore caused a situation which could have been avoided.  But the rules state that the procedure includes appealing to the Rules committee by the state committee.

    Parent
    sorry wrong place (none / 0) (#39)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:03:07 PM EST
    It's not about (none / 0) (#88)
    by Warren Terrer on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 06:04:02 PM EST
    who can and can't win according to a set of rules. It's about who the voters want to be their candidate.

    Could you just STOP with the Obama spin, please?

    Parent

    Ridiculous... (none / 0) (#98)
    by DudeE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:29:46 PM EST
    ...sure it's all about the "rules" right?  Which would include the rule stating that superdelegates are free to vote however they wish.  Now tell me why Obama supporters are ready to stage a coup if these superdelegates don't rubber stamp their guy?

    Parent
    Move along (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:48:40 PM EST
    This is not new.  I keep saying this is circular logic.  Dean will approve what the candidates approve and the candidates will accept what Dean accepts who will approve what the candidates approve.  I know they are deadlocked in the credentials committee but Clinton has the majority in the Rules committee.  I wonder why they don't even consider a vote.

    It's all an insidious plot.  The Dems and Reps are conspiring against all of us.  They are trying to piss us off so we leave them alone to run their country.  If they screw the elections up often enough, I guess our threshold for what is acceptable will lower.

    punting to the campaigns is irresponsible. (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by cy street on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:48:59 PM EST
    his decision brought us to this.  he easily could have employed the rnc approach and we would have none of this.

    dean has become irrelevant.

    the power vacuum of the party is up for grabs without leadership.

    where are the elected leaders while we are at it?

    This has the potential to end very badly (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by ahazydelirium on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:49:40 PM EST
    for Hillary. I can just imagine a possible spin scenario:

    Obama vetoes a re-vote for both states, as is his current line. The reasoning is that "rules are rules." He's willing, of course, to ignore the rules in the case of his idea: an even split of delegates. [Otherwise, he'll definitely lose both states in a General. So he can't support actually following the rules through and denying the delegates seats at the Convention.]

    Hillary continues her support of a re-vote. Even if a re-vote is on her side, it's still the democratic thing to do. She pushes for it, against Obama.

    Dean doesn't do anything to reconcile the situation. Instead, he just harps on how the candidates must find a solution.

    Hillary is seen as an obstructionist, vile politician. The blogosphere, the media and Obama supporters up their diatribes against Hillary. They really put the pressure on.

    I just don't know how such a situation ends. Although, I presume it can't be good for Hillary.

    Hillary is taking no prisoners (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Seth90212 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:08:01 PM EST
    in her pursuit of the nomination. She is exploiting or attempting to exploit every advantage. Gee, maybe Obama ought to be allowed to take some actions that benefit him. Wouldn't you agree?

    Parent
    So we have (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Warren Terrer on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:51:40 PM EST
    Obama saying 'whatever the DNC says if fine' and we now have the DNC saying 'whatever the candidates can agree on is fine'. Utterly stupid, but just what I expected Dean has been up to.

    However, it's an opportunity for either candidate to step up with a concrete proposal that enfranchises the voters and forces the other to get with the program or be perceived as obstructing democracy. I hope Hillary steps up and does it. I know Obama won't.

    Parent

    You're too funny dude... (none / 0) (#99)
    by DudeE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:31:36 PM EST
    ...love it.  Clinton is trying to win and Obama is just hanging out while people inexplicably vote for him.

    Parent
    It can't be good for Obama either (none / 0) (#79)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:01:07 PM EST
    He wins, and Republicans have a two state head start.

    Two big states.

    I assume Obama wants to be president, right?

    Parent

    My implication (none / 0) (#105)
    by ahazydelirium on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:57:21 PM EST
    was only that progressives and Democrats will turn around and blame everything on Hillary, if she doesn't capitulate to their pressure. They will accuse her of all manner of political dirtiness and ruthlessness.

    All this in contrast to the fact that she did not create this problem.

    Parent

    Problem is even if we have a re-vote (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:50:40 PM EST
    I'm having a hard time convincing my wife she should vote again.  And I suspect she is not the only one that feels that way.

    The problem with Dean is... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by CST on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:57:00 PM EST
    No one blames him, and this is all his fault.  The Clinton supporters are up in arms saying "It's all Obama's fault" and Obama fans are just as quick to blame Clinton.  This will further divide the party and hurt everyone in november.  This needs to be solved NOW, and ACTIVELY, by ALL SIDES, but ESPECIALLY DEAN.

    Dean Supports Obama (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by dissenter on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:00:29 PM EST
    That is the bottom line. These people have become so delusional that they think Obama is gonna waltz into the White House. Instead, it is going to be a gigantic defeat, a split party and Dean will be run out of town. I don't really think he cares either. I liked Dean a lot but I had some serious issues with some of his policies.

    I find it ironic the reformers are the repubican-lites and they are the ones saying the Clinton's are.

    Parent

    blaming (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:00:14 PM EST
    the person who is SUPPOSED to be the referee is dangerous.

    Parent
    Ok let me re-phrase (none / 0) (#46)
    by CST on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:08:29 PM EST
    I really think this is the DNC's fault.  And Dean is the head of the DNC - but it's not 100% him.

    Parent
    Leadership (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:00:16 PM EST
    is strikingly absent here, which is going to give way to endless GOP talking points in the general election campaign along the lines of "Why would you want the Democrats in charge - they can't even figure out how to nominate a candidate, and don't really care about the voters."  

    Karl Rove is rubbing his sweaty hands together, and McCain has not only figured out "how to beat the b*tch," he's got all he needs on Obama.

    I used to think Howard Dean was one of the good ones, but he is failing us badly now; I don't know when they hold their own elections, but he's got to go, as does Donna Brazile.

    Why is this getting blamed on the DNC?? (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by dyeletz on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:08:17 PM EST
    It was obviously the state parties that screwed the pooch.  Everybody got to vote on the rules, the rules were set, Florida and Michigan broke the rules.  Rules are rules; you register after the deadline you don't get to vote.  Tough titty.  Seat the delegates 50/50.  Enough of this imbecility.

    The DNC broke the Rules when (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:09:58 PM EST
    when it took away 100% of the Delegates instead of the 50% the rules stated.

    Parent
    That's a whole 'nother can of worms... (none / 0) (#100)
    by DudeE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:33:21 PM EST
    ...which is the question of why the DNC is hell bent in protecting the primacy of Iowa and New Hampshire at virtually any expense...

    Parent
    Picking sides (1.00 / 3) (#56)
    by BlueMainer on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:13:50 PM EST
    Now it's all Dean's fault? If everybody could agree on an equitable plan - fine, do it. But, since the HRC campaign is in scorched earth mode, there probably isn't going to be any agreement on any plan that is fair to both.

    What's your equitable plan? (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by RalphB on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:26:43 PM EST
    Give the votes to Obama?


    Parent
    Because... (none / 0) (#101)
    by DudeE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:34:29 PM EST
    ...primaries unfairly favor Clinton ;)

    Parent
    Florida Revote Crumbling? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Coral Gables on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:45:29 PM EST
    IMO (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Step Beyond on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:55:02 PM EST
    I think that is more reason to push forward. Especially if they want to win in November.

    Crist is saying over and over again how the state will help and provide info. If it turns out they can't and that is the cause of why the revote fails, suddenly there is a Republican to blame.

    I'm not saying this is the best solution or even a good solution if the goal is to do the right thing, but certainly if winning in November is THE goal someone should be pushing to continue to move forward on the mail vote.

    Parent

    this was obvious long ago (none / 0) (#16)
    by Seth90212 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:51:24 PM EST
    But Hillary and her supporters, instead of looking for a viable solution, were arguing a fantasy that would only benefit them. Time spent indulging the fantasy could have been better spent on creating a consensus around a credible solution. Too late now, I'm afraid.

    Hillarys fault (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:55:20 PM EST
    again
    in spite of the fact she has been consistent on wanting a revote.
    sigh

    Parent
    BECAUSE (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:58:48 PM EST
    not as many democrats voted as republicans so the record turnout could not POSSIBLY be representative.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#74)
    by Warren Terrer on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:52:39 PM EST
    she needs to come up with a concrete plan now. Neither Obama nor the DNC are going to do it. That much is clear.

    Parent
    And when would that have been, Seth? (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:11:41 PM EST
    There were very few who thought this election would still be up in the air after February 5 - almost no one thought Florida and Michigan would be in any worse a position than any other state that was scheduled to hold an election post-Feb 5.

    So, when should something have been done?  February 6th?  February 20th?  When?

    And why is it all up to Hillary, Seth?  Why wasn't it up to the Florida and Michigan state parties, and their voters, to start a campaign to be seated?  Do you remember what happened when Hillary went to Florida on the night of January 29th and told the voters she would fight to see that their delegates were seated?  I know you remember she was once again raked over the coals for "not playing by the rules" and violating "the pledge" and only caring because she needed their votes to win.  Except that, since it was before February 5, even she didn't know whether she would actually need their delegates.  

    I am really tired of this meme that somehow, this is all Hillary's fault, and the fault of her supporters.

    The truth is that Howard Dean took this too far in stripping all of the delegates; had it been 50%, we might be looking at a whole different contest, as no one would have taken their names off the ballot in Michigan, and Obama could easily have been looking at two very big losses.

    Which kind of makes me wonder if the decision of the rules committee wasn't intended to punish the states as much as it was intended to stop Obama from flaming out early.  Given Dean's ridiculous position now, that fairness to the candidates has to be a factor, I really do wonder.

    Parent

    Obama flameout? (none / 0) (#59)
    by BlueMainer on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:18:49 PM EST
    Insert eye roll here.

    Parent
    At the time (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:28:59 PM EST
    he didn't think he could win in either state, and only left his name on the ballot in Florida because he couldn't take it off without withdrawing from the race.  Before primary season ever started, Obama was the underdog, remember?  Behind everywhere by double digits.  It is not unreasonable to think there were supporters who helped him by taking the draconian step of completely nullifying the results in Florida and Michigan.

    Eyeroll, indeed.

    Parent

    Yes, I agree with you (none / 0) (#75)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:52:51 PM EST
    Dean has caused this mess with his 100% punishment of 2 states and no punishment for 3 other states. I have read in several places that he was paving the way for John Edwards. When he didn't catch on, seems that Obama became the beneficiary. Hard to believe changing a date equals complete disenfranchisement.

    Parent
    Hillary was delusional to think and argue (none / 0) (#82)
    by Seth90212 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:22:56 PM EST
    for seating the delegates as is. Remember her "victory" speech in FL? She has been delusional alot this campaign season. It did not help that her most ardent supporters aided and abetted the delusion. Consequently there was no effort to come up with a non-delusional option. Go back and read the comments on this site. Some were even arguing that it was Obama's tough luck that he took his name off the ballot in MI--that Hillary should be awarded all those delegates while none go to Obama. Now, this would never happen in a million years, yet this was being argued. In fact, Hillary has made this argument as recently as yesterday.

    Parent
    Yes she's delusional... (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by DudeE on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:36:40 PM EST
    ...thinking that 1.7 million people actually went out and voted for a Democratic candidate and that, by a margin of 300,000, more of them chose her.

    All just a dream.

    Parent

    Seth, you are so wrong. Again. (none / 0) (#93)
    by Anne on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:14:18 PM EST
    Hillary is not arguing that she get ALL the delegates, she is making the case that she should get however many delegates are allocable to the percentage of the popular votes cast for her; where I come from, that's known as getting what you earned.

    And, sorry, but Obama made the decision to take his name off the ballot - there was no requirement that he do so.  He did it as a nod to Iowa, and because he feared he would not win there.  He forfeited the contest.  Didn't show up.  Had something else on his calendar.  Didn't buy the lottery ticket.  Whatever - however you want to describe it, it was his decision, and if it turns out to bite him in the butt, well, that's just too damn bad - it isn't up to the state party, the DNC or the Clinton campaign to make up for his own short-sightedness.

    Maybe in some circles, your argument works, but there are too many people here who have made it theri business to get the facts that it's just not going to play.

    Parent

    Have you read the rules? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:57:33 PM EST
    this was not obvious before TX and OH (none / 0) (#47)
    by AF on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:08:36 PM EST
    It looked quite plausible that Obama would clinch the nomination on March 4.  It only became obvious that this is necessary after TX and OH.

    It's still not obvious that the primaries will be necessary, but they have to be set up now because we can't wait until after PA.

    Parent

    The link is busted n/t (none / 0) (#18)
    by Blue Neponset on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:53:35 PM EST


    Voters: (none / 0) (#21)
    by tandem5 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:54:50 PM EST
    We can veto the Democratic party in the general election.

    so not worth it (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by CST on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:57:31 PM EST
    And end up with McCain???? NO THANKS

    Parent
    There's always a reason why voters have to (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by tandem5 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:09:50 PM EST
    cede their power to some greater cause or threat, but I don't think there's any greater cause for this country than the protection of a person's vote nor greater threat than the prospect of having it taken away.

    Parent
    ok... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by CST on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:16:30 PM EST
    I find the right to vote very important.  But I find the right to not be tortured more important, and many "democracies" don't even have primaries.

    Parent
    Time for a Sorrow and Pity Party (none / 0) (#50)
    by kaleidescope on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:09:52 PM EST
    Yes, it's a disaster that HoHo won't help states get to re-vote when they waited more than a year to come up with a re-vote plan.  As soon as the legislatures in those states passed primary laws that violated the DNC's rules, the Florida and Michigan state parties should have set up alternative procedures that would allow delegates to be selected in a way that conformed to the DNC's rules.  

    Instead, they simply assumed that no one would have the gonads to enforce the rules.  Only a feckless weak and incompetent party leader would actually enforce the rules.

    So let us not forget that it was the Michigan and Florida state Democratic Parties -- not Howard Dean -- who put us in this situation.

    I suppose it's also a disaster that HoHo won't go out of his way to help the Clintons, especially given how much help they've always been to him.  The Clintons played a giant game of chicken -- assuming along with the Florida and Michigan parties that no one would actually enforce the rules.  Either that or they assumed that they would have the nomination in the bag by this time and wouldn't need Michigan or Florida.  The Clinton family lost that game of chicken and I'm sure Howard Dean would really, really want to help them take their bet back, if only HoHo were competent.  

    I have a word in mind that I would like to insert in the middle of the phrase: "Boo Hoo".  But this is a work-friendly blog and using that word would violate the site's comment policy.

    So, in the alternative, let's just say that the violins are tuning up right now.  Table for how many?

    President McCain (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by RalphB on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:25:18 PM EST
    is that sorrow and pity enough for you?

    Personally it's fine with me.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#83)
    by kaleidescope on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:30:09 PM EST
    As long as we're going to eat some worms and then we'll die and Howard Dean will be sorry that he picked on us . . . .

    It looks like any way you dice it it's going to be President McCain, since the Democratic Party can't get along with itself enough to cooperate and win.  Personally, I have enough assets that I can live comfortably if McCain is the President.  In fact, he will probably be economically better for people like me than either Obama or Clinton.

    As for non-economic issues, my personal view is that in his recent novel "The Road", Cormac McCarthy describes very well what is in store for our kids and (perhaps, if humans survive long enough, some of) our grandkids.  And that will almost certainly be the case no matter who the Democrats nominate and regardless of whether a Democrat or Republican is elected president.

    So, though I would prefer that either Clinton or Obama be the president instead of McCain, it ultimately doesn't matter.  The human species is not adaptable enough to live with the consequences of its (limited) intelligence.

    Perhaps that's the basis for a real sorrow and pity party.

    Parent

    We come at this from diametrically (none / 0) (#86)
    by RalphB on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:54:26 PM EST
    opposing viewpoints, but I also will have no problem with John McCain as president.  I don't believe the US could withstand another 4-8 years of a Bush like neophyte in Obama, even from the left.


    Parent
    Who Woulda Thought (none / 0) (#103)
    by kaleidescope on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 08:11:02 PM EST
    That if you vote for McCain, he wins.  Can I have your autograph?

    Parent
    I was browsing through some old articles (none / 0) (#81)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:07:45 PM EST
    and I came upon this jewel;
    Ms. Brazile suggested that Democrats in Florida, given what happened there in 2000, should be particularly sensitive to what the party was doing. "I'm going to send a message to everybody in Florida -- that we are going to follow the rules," she said.



    Dean supports who? (none / 0) (#85)
    by ItsGreg on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:47:13 PM EST
    I keep seeing folks claim that Howard Dean supports Obama. Or that he used to support Edwards, then switched his support to Obama after Edwards dropped out. But in all the reading I've done and in all the interviews I've seen or heard, I've never come across anything to buttress that claim.

    Can somebody point me toward a quote from Dean that shows his support for any particular presidential campaign?

    Personally, I've got no clue who Dean (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by RalphB on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:56:54 PM EST
    supports and care less.  He has done a truly despicable job as chairman of the DNC.  If he can't or won't lead on the MI-FL issue, he should just resign now and get it over with.


    Parent
    My opinion of Dean is validated (none / 0) (#97)
    by chemoelectric on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 07:21:22 PM EST
    I don't understand what people saw in Dean in 2004. He was plainly a naive bumbler. Even now people blame the MSM for Dean's decline, when it was the MSM that made him a household name and declared him "inevitable". And Dean just bumbled along, on one occasion displaying shocking ignorance of our culture's symbolism (the CSA battle flag flap), and having difficulty controlling his temper.

    But he is very charismatic (none / 0) (#107)
    by dianem on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 12:55:43 AM EST
    Charisma is the most important thing in leaders. Didn't you know that?

    Parent
    What about Gravel? (none / 0) (#104)
    by Ben Masel on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:51:09 PM EST


    The 48 state strategy (none / 0) (#106)
    by dianem on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 12:54:19 AM EST
    What they heck... we can win the Presidency without Michigan and Florida. At least I hope we can, because we're going to be dealing with a lot of Democrats who are really annoyed that the Democratic Party didn't care enough to give them a chance to vote. I know... their leaders made a choice to move up the primary. But the voter's had no say in the choice, and the Democratic Party does not seem to care about remedying the situation. Obama should not be doing this. He is so far ahead that this won't make a difference anyway. What does he have to lose? Is he trying to sabotage his chances in the general election?

    Candidates (none / 0) (#108)
    by cal1942 on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 01:15:28 PM EST
    should have NO say in this matter.  

    The DNC is responsible for the National Convention and the Presidential race.  The states run the primaries.  Nowhere is it written that candidates make decisions about primaries.

    Dean has done some good for the party before this major debacle, but his conduct since last fall has been lame enough to destroy what before was a good record.

    I was pissed when he allowed the death penalty and am even more pissed that he's blowing the opportunity to at least salvage something by fobbing off the DNC's rightful role to the candidates who souldn't have any say in the matter.

    His decision is ridiculous.