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Continuing A Theme: The Obama Rorschach Test

By Big Tent Democrat

Another excellent post from Chris Bowers at Open Left on the Obama Rorschach Test:

[T]his dogwhistle Rorschach test, which progressive activists and media elites are interpreting so differently, could create problems for Obama when it comes time to govern. . . . [T]he . . . media elites that also like Obama intend to hold him accountable unless he becomes the next Joe Lieberman.

. . . Obama's message of bipartisanship means different things to different people. Media elites see it as a sign that he will regularly engage in fights that will anger the progressive activist base of the party. By contrast, many progressive activists see it as simply stating that he intends to build a large, "bipartisan" majority in Congress that will pass a progressive agenda. If, when he becomes President, Obama breaks in one direction or the other, one of these groups will probably end up pretty angry at him.

Indeed. Finally, some traction for analyzing Obamas's theory of change.

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    If I could rate (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Coldblue on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:00:48 PM EST
    the first comment in the linked post I would have given it the highest rating
    I am confused  (0.00 / 0)
    How exactly do they plan to hold him accountable? Do blogs remember their own rhectoric? Isn't it here where people wrote elections have consequences? Isn't now rather than later where one should require clarity from him because once in office, aren't we stuck with him?

    Sorry, Chris is wrong if he believes that a 'progressive' VP is an indication of how Mr. Obama would govern, imho.

    Ignatius (yeah, I know) (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:06:18 PM EST
    Has some thoughts that bear repeating--

    I

    f Obama truly intends to unite America across party lines and break the Washington logjam, then why has he shown so little interest or aptitude for the hard work of bipartisan government?

    ...Clinton, for all her reputation as a divisive figure, has a much stronger record of bipartisan achievement.

    LINK

    contradiction in terms (5.00 / 6) (#6)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:36:16 PM EST
    from Bowers piece

    By contrast, many progressive activists see it as simply stating that he intends to build a large, "bipartisan" majority in Congress that will pass a progressive agenda.

    this is what kills me about progressive supporters of Obama.  They fail to see the inherent contradiction between "a large bipartisan majority" and "a progressive agenda."

    Obama might be able to build a large bi-partisan majority to do what Bill Clinton did -- govern as a slightly left-of-center moderate.  Or he might win by a landslide, carrying into office enough democrats that he can pass a progressive agenda.

    but there is no way in hell that he can build this big ass coalition, and pass a progressive agenda.  That's crazy talk.

    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:37:20 PM EST
    Republicans will magically become progressive don't you know?

    Parent
    No, Obama's going to FOOL them, (none / 0) (#9)
    by MarkL on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:42:47 PM EST
    but only we on the progressive blogs know this!

    Parent
    Paul, here is my idea: (3.66 / 3) (#8)
    by MarkL on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:41:54 PM EST
    I believe Obama intends to make a grand bargain with the Republicans: dismantle (privatize) Social Security in return for their cooperation on other issues.
    This is speculative, of course, but there is evidence.
    First of all, Obama's economics team is all strongly pro-privatization. In fact, Liebman is the coauthor of a privatization plan whose first mandatory step is to raise the cap on payroll taxes (imagine that!)
    to create a fund to jumpstart private accounts. In addition, he is connected to (student of?) another famous economist whose research is the basis for conservatives claiming that SS leads to lower savings rates. The only problems is that this research is fraudulent, and the numbers show the reverse!

    Second: Obama is not stupid. Therefore, he must plan to give the Republicans something to get their cooperation.

    Third: his rhetoric on health care, putting personal choice as a higher value than effectiveness, is not consistent with  support of SS.

    Parent

    You are woefully uninformed (1.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:06:09 PM EST
    Obama on SS:

    Obama will protect Social Security benefits for current and future beneficiaries alike. And he does not believe it is necessary or fair to hardworking seniors to raise the retirement age. Obama is strongly opposed to privatizing Social Security...

    In the midst of the 2005 debate over Social Security privatization, Obama gave a major speech at the National Press Club forcefully arguing against privatization. He also repeatedly voted against Republican amendments that aimed to privatize Social Security or cut benefits. Obama has also voted to force companies to properly fund their pension plans so taxpayers don't end up footing the bill.

    Of course you can just make up whatever sh*t you want and say it here. Who's concerned about facts as long as it smears the opponent?


    Parent

    Speculation (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:08:27 PM EST
    To be fair, Obama ALSO said everything is on the table re: Social Security.

    Your point is his web site says that is not his position. His web site is not the entirety of his pronouncement on issues.

    Watch the insulting of fellow commenters.

    Parent

    So why does he have Liebman (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by MarkL on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:10:38 PM EST
    as his chief economic adviser, and why is he inconsistent on the role of personal choice in health care and SS?


    Parent
    He has said he's against (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:16:24 PM EST
    privatization of SS. The onus is on you to provide evidence to refute that. You're the one charging that he's lying and is secretly planning to privatize.

    Parent
    I laid out my evidence. It's up for you (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by MarkL on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:19:42 PM EST
    to judge it. Consider how he has been caught out on NAFTA, I do not see how you can be confident he will not privatize SS.

    Parent
    Your evidence (none / 0) (#41)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:25:02 PM EST
    consists of nothing but unfounded speculation. In opposition to his actual campaign promises and record of previous votes supporting SS and forcefully opposing privatization.

    Parent
    Then - why did Obama (none / 0) (#48)
    by Josey on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:58:21 PM EST
    select advisors who are pro-privatization of SS and essentially YOYO on health care?


    Parent
    One adviser (none / 0) (#63)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:39:10 PM EST
    wrote a paper about how the current SS system hurts the poor and that new distribution models should be considered.  

    It's not like he has Jude Wanniski on his team.

    Parent

    Web sites and opinions (none / 0) (#94)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:21:23 AM EST
    A web site has not proven to be a method of accountability.  When his anti war speech proved to be inconvenient, he took it down.  A candidates web site can say anything.  Actually, can say everything so that all sides read what they want.  It's the new "Framing" aka propaganda.  We have to use our judgement.  

    Parent
    ah yes... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:07:40 PM EST
    read what he says on his website, not what he says in his speeches.

    "Ohio, pay no attention to the phone call to Canada behind the screen!"

    Parent

    Please provide a link (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:10:08 PM EST
    to a speech where he says anything other than that SS will not be privatized.

    And if you can't, stop spreading lies.

    Parent

    Excuse me AA (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:13:49 PM EST
    Control yourself or you will be suspended.

    You seem unfamiliar with the well documented statement from Obama that everything is on the table regarding Social Security.

    Do not insult fellow commenters.

    Parent

    I'm not unfamiliar with (none / 0) (#39)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:20:00 PM EST
    that vague statement.

    I'm pointing out that all of his actions have been to support SS and to oppose privatization, since no one else here will bother pointing out that very obvious fact.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:27:36 PM EST
    the vagueness of the statement was the problem.

    Parent
    IMHO... (none / 0) (#51)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:03:58 PM EST
    imho, the problem is nomentclature.

    Saying you are against "privatization" is meaningless.  Unless you make a commitment to maintaining the structure of social security as it currently exists, you are waffling.

    And I'm simply not encouraged by Obama's rhetoric in Social Security.  

    Parent

    That's what he SAYS (none / 0) (#47)
    by Josey on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:54:43 PM EST
    but all his economic ADVISORS are pro-privatization of SS.
    Wait! he only chose them to attract Republican and Indy voters, but when he gets into the WH - he'll govern like a Progressive.
    ;>

    Parent
    And he certainly does say (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:08:17 PM EST
    that the "everything" that's on the table re SS specifically excludes privatization.

    "privatization is not something I would consider" (January 04, 2008)

    link

    And you're incorrect about ALL of his advisors. He has a team of advisors that numbers in the many hundreds. He takes input from multiple perspectives to develop his positions.

    But I'm sure you'll make up whatever narrative amuses you.

    Parent

    no AA you seem to though (none / 0) (#68)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:13:07 PM EST
    His main economical advisors are all of the Free Market Free Trade privatization school forget the hundred's you claim he has and concentrate on the main 3 including the one CTV claims was the one who called the Canadian Consulate.  Also research his foreign affairs people too while your at it.

    Parent
    Here are the names if (none / 0) (#69)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:15:59 PM EST
    you'd like to research their work

    Austan Goolsbee, David Cutler, Jeffrey Liebman.


    Parent

    I know about those key advisors (none / 0) (#72)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:28:25 PM EST
    and don't care for them either, though it's not quite as unshaded as you indicate.

    Economics is certainly primary to me.

    At least Goolsbee did the definitive debunking of the Laffer Curve.

    His foreign affairs people are better, IMO.

    Parent

    My point is (none / 0) (#73)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:34:34 PM EST
    "Dime con quien andas y te dire quien eres"  which roughly translates to Tell me who you hang out with and I'll tell you who you are.  If Obama surrounds himself with those kinds of advisors it is because he is not too far from them in his economic Ideals.  As far as his foreign affairs advisors I always had my doubts about some of them specially Brezinski.

    Parent
    One question have you (none / 0) (#74)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:35:58 PM EST
    read the published articles and books by those 3.

    Parent
    I'm most familiar with Goolsbee (none / 0) (#77)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:46:24 PM EST
    And I like Brzezinski.

    Parent
    You are politicizing (none / 0) (#79)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:57:15 PM EST
    their research work although I haven't read anything about Goolsbee being in favor of privatization although I doubt he would categorically reject it, as few economists would reject it without consideration.

    Parent
    Goolsbee is a Free Marketeer (none / 0) (#95)
    by Florida Resident on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 06:09:07 AM EST
     of the three Jeffrey Liebman is the one that outright has favored privatizing SS.

    Parent
    By the way Flyer (none / 0) (#96)
    by Florida Resident on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 06:15:31 AM EST
    Two points;

    When an economist joins a political campaign as an advisor his/her work becomes politicized by the effect it will have on the candidate's positions.

    Obama has said he does not favor or would privatize SS.  His ambiguity comes from also saying everything is on the table.  I believe him when he says privatization is not but then he should not use the word everything.  

    Parent

    His website has this from a speech (none / 0) (#34)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:14:28 PM EST
    -- that he opposes Bush's plan (which is dead now, anyway):  "Obama also outlined his opposition to President Bush's proposal to privatize Social Security, saying the plan is flawed in part because the U.S. would borrow from other nations to pay for the staggering transition costs to alter traditional Social Security.  Obama said Social Security is not threatened with bankruptcy."

    But he also said that "Rather, the system cannot sustain its current benefit levels without increasing revenues or cutting benefits."

    I think I just saw my benefits cut long before I get them . . . but after decades of paying in to get them.

    Parent

    Demagoguery (none / 0) (#55)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:19:57 PM EST
    the simple fact is, that while long-term projections show SS being unable to fully fund projected benefit levels, its all BS.

    First off, those forcasts are based on wages rising faster than overall inflation -- guess what; that hasn't been happening.

    Secondly, even with the proposed 'shortfall' in revenue in 35 years or so, benefit levels will still be better than they are today (based on the same 'wages rising faster than inflation' assumptions).

    Thirdly, the increase in minimum wage will have a substantial impact on SS revenues, while having only a minor impact on benefit levels -- that's because benefit levels are based on your best 30 years --- and minimum wage is seldom a significant part of people's best 30 years.

    Finally, under current projections, the economy will not have a problem paying full benefits once the trust fund runs out, because SS outlays as a percentage of GDP pretty much flatline at the same time that we have to begin depleting the trust.  (The Trust continues to run a surplus until 2029 -- around 2012, SS benefits as a percentage of GDP will stay around 4.2% until 2012, at which point they rise .2% a year until 2032, and from then on are pretty much 6.2% of GDP for another 40 years.  And the depletion of the trust will be minimal from 2029 through 2032...)

    Sorry for getting so wonky on this, but the SS system is fine.

    Medicare is a disaster.

    Parent

    I hope you're wrong (none / 0) (#12)
    by Coldblue on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:48:25 PM EST
    but you do make a credible case.

    Parent
    Now I'm gonna have nightmares (none / 0) (#20)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:57:00 PM EST
    thinking about that.  

    Thanks! ;(

    Parent

    do republicans still have that as an issue? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:57:05 PM EST
    I mean, yeah, I know that Bush wanted to privatize social security, but he couldn't get it on the table with his own party controlling both houses.  They rubber stamped him on the war, torturing and just about anything Bush wanted BUT privatization.

    I think it's one of those third rail issues republicans rattle their swords over but don't really want to have to take a stand on.

    So, they would need a bigger bone than privatization that they could take back to their electorate and say, "look at this great thing we have done in exchange for X!" (X being whatever Obama wants-and who knows what that'll be?  Change?  Hope?)

    What's up for grabs?  Choice would be at the top of the list.  No more abortions.  Or at least legal ones--the ones that kill women or end up sterilizing them are okay because of course those wh*res should be punished.  How about letting a little religion in schools?  Not a bad idea, right?  We are a Christian nation.  Vouchers-there's a great issue that republicans love.  Sells really well with their home-schooling constituents who don't want their kids going to schools with minorities and learning about (gulp) evolution.  How about dropping this silly healthcare thing? And let's make marriage a federal act between a man and a woman.  And let's stop this hatecrimes crap because of course we hate those gays.  What's the big deal?  And gays in the military?   Yeah, that's a good thing to take back to the conservative folks at home.

    There are plenty more issues the republicans would gladly embrace instead of privatization.  

    Parent

    But it's very easy for a Democrat to (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by MarkL on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:00:35 PM EST
    propose it! Needless to say, the word "privatization " will not be part of the discussion---it will be all about "fixing" and "modernizing" Social Security.

    Parent
    hey, how about slavery? (none / 0) (#82)
    by Tano on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:44:33 PM EST
    Last I checked, Obama has not come out with a definitive statement that he is opposed to the reintroduction of slavery.

    Therefore, it is fair to assume that he must secretly be for it.

    Parent

    You know. I keep reading things like this about (none / 0) (#24)
    by derridog on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:04:22 PM EST
    him. I hope you're wrong,but I fear you might be right. He says himself in his book (caveat: I did not read his book --I just read this online -so not sure if this is really what he said) that he is a blank slate that other people project their beliefs and desires onto.

    Someone said to me the other day, "Where did Obama get all that money when he first started running for President?" I think they meant--who benefits from his running?   I remember when Clark came in to challenge Dean and everyone said that the Clintons had put him up to it.  So who put Obama up to it?

    I think if we really had the answer to that question, we would have the answers to some of these troubling questions about what Obama is actually going to do as President.  What he says is, and I think we should listen carefully to that, he wants to be "bipartisan" and work with the Republicans,  he wants to appoint Republicans to his cabinet and even names Hagel and Schwarzenegger, he won't support doing away with mercenary military contractors, like Blackwater and many such statements that really concern me. this is not what I want in a Democratic President. If I want a Republican, I could vote for McCain.

    I wish I could stop worrying.  I want to know WHAT I'm voting for, not just who.

    Parent

    Well, I look at it this way: (none / 0) (#29)
    by MarkL on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:08:37 PM EST
    I think Obama is a perfect example of the Liberal Republican. The only problem is that there is no room in the GOP for Liberal Republicans anymore, and hasn't been since the Reagan years.
    Can you imagine Obama voting for McGovern, or Carter, or Humphrey, or Mondale?
    Please, to use BTD's line, don't insult MY intelligence. Obama has nothing but scorn for the left. He IS progressive in some areas, and he's socially tolerant. This makes him a liberal Republican. He is anything but a Democrat's Democrat.

    Parent
    So Obama= Bill Clinton (none / 0) (#59)
    by Socraticsilence on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:30:18 PM EST
    Basically, what you're arguing is that Obama will govern like Bill Clinton did (as a Fiscal Conservative/ Social Liberal) because that label seems to fit very well on the last Democratic President.

    Parent
    no. even fdr believed strongly in (none / 0) (#88)
    by kangeroo on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 01:39:08 AM EST
    cutting wasteful government spending, and he was the godfather of fed social programs.  unlike obama, bill didn't start out with social security and health care up for grabs; he was always solidly committed to those, although repubs beat him (or rather, hillary) to a pulp over the latter.  fulfilling our moral societal obligations and maximizing efficiency and productivity aren't mutually exclusive.  the question is where do you cross the line from being a blue dog dem to being a mccain.  for dems, the moral/societal obligation weighs heavier than marginal savings to the checkbook.

    Parent
    What do you mean, "If?" (none / 0) (#42)
    by oldpro on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:25:59 PM EST
    We know who "put him up to it" and raised all that money, gave him their lists and their staff and their fundraisers.  We know who drafted him...and if he wins, he will owe them everything.  All appointments, all jobs, all issues and policies which have to run through congress, all get run by them first.

    Who?  Daschle, Kennedy, Kerry, (the losers) who couldn't get the presidency themselves but could maybe get there with a surrogate...and if not, at least they could get rid of the Clintons.  Hell, yeah.  And Durbin and the Daley machine, now Dodd and Rockefeller...you know, the 'new faces' in government!  And not a female among them except for Daschle's wife, the DC lobbysist.  Any clearer now?

    This is what you're voting for.  The Dem DC establishment...the good ol' boys club is the 'new politics' and Obama is the frontman.

    Parent

    All those folks are DC insiders (none / 0) (#49)
    by ding7777 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:58:44 PM EST
    and yet the Obama supporters truely believe that
    Obama is part of Dean's 50-state "crash the gate" strategy.

    Parent
    Yup. The operative words here (none / 0) (#65)
    by oldpro on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:50:05 PM EST
    are "Obama supporters truely (sic) believe."

    You may have noticed, that's what the signs say, too!  "Believe!"  and "Hope we can believe in!"

    Totally ready to buy another 'uniter, not a divider' because they want to believe it.  It's the new political megachurch meeting...

    Parent

    Do you think Democrats will.... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:18:40 PM EST
    ...go along with that? I think you will see baby boomers rioting in the streets if he tries that.

    Fine. privatize social security but in the meantime give me and my husband back all the money we put in all these years, with interest, thank you very much.

    Parent

    look obama could give them everything. (none / 0) (#75)
    by hellothere on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:36:59 PM EST
    they will take it say get lost and go down the road. they won't work with obama. they'll work against obama. what a joke!

    Parent
    here's a link on who O's advisors are (none / 0) (#92)
    by thereyougo on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 02:28:43 AM EST
    here are some of Os advisors (none / 0) (#93)
    by thereyougo on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 02:33:45 AM EST
    Disabuse Your Illusion: Weighing Obama in the Balance of Reality            
    Written by Chris Floyd  
    Friday, 29 February 2008
    Hope, said Emily Dickinson, is the thing with feathers, a tough little bird that sounds sweetest in the midst of a storm. It's a commonplace by now, but no less true, that Barack Obama's winged words of hope have borne him up to the high place where he stands now, on the threshold of the White House. And these words shine all the more brightly against the torrent of filth that the Bush Regime has rained down upon the American people for years. Thus it's no surprise that millions of people have been inspired by Obama - including a million who have put their money where their hope is, in the most remarkable grass-roots funding campaign in U.S. political history.

    It can't be denied that an Obama presidency would be better in many respects than the Bush regime - if only for the replacement of the thousands of fanatics, cranks and witless apparatchiks with whom Bush has packed the federal bureaucracy. The ouster of these cadres will make an appreciable difference, on the ground, in the lives of many people. To cite just one instance, it is likely that an Obama administration (or a Clinton administration, for that matter) would restore the funding to family planning services and health clinics in the poorest regions of the world that Bush has maliciously - and murderously - cut off to please the religious extremists in his political base. That alone would save thousands of lives each year.

    But to make this observation is not an endorsement of Obama's candidacy, nor a call for "lesser evilism." It's simply a statement of fact. As we've said here before, echoing Noam Chomsky, even small mitigations in the operation of vast power structures can translate into benefits - or alleviations of suffering - for substantial numbers of people. Again, this is an observable fact, not a value judgment. Whether these mitigations of injustice and suffering in certain instances outweigh the cost of participating in - and thereby to some extent legitimizing and perpetuating - a system that inevitably produces injustice and suffering on a massive scale is a question that each person must decide for themselves, in their own individual conscience.

    And this question is certainly pertinent in the case of Barack Obama. For by the choices he has made in picking advisers to help him shape his policies, he has given every indication that while his presidency might represent a better management and presentation of the current system, it will in no way overturn or even seriously challenge it on any essential point. In other words - and bearing in mind the type of not-insubstantial mitigations noted above - he will keep doing what Bush has been doing, only more competently, less radically, with a greater care for the long-term viability of the power structure. And what is that structure that Obama seeks to refine and extend? It is an imperial system based on militarism and the exaltation of elitist profit and privilege above all other concerns.

    (It should be noted that this profit/privilege motive is not always elevated to the exclusion of all other concerns - civil rights, health care, disaster relief, education, et al. There are horrors enough in this system without having to pretend that it is operated at all levels and at all times by inhuman monsters. In fact it is, like every system of power, all too human; it partakes of the same chaos, contradiction, selfishness, ignorance, and bestial impulses that afflict us all. Yet because the system is made up of human beings, it also contains traces of the empathy, awareness and striving for transcendence that flicker inside us from time to time. But however much these higher concerns might occasionally animate various individuals - or even larger factions - within the system, they are always, in the end, subordinated to the pursuit of elitist aggrandizement. Measures that attempt to address these other concerns are not allowed to hinder elitist profit and privilege in any serious way; indeed, these reforms are often designed - or forcibly perverted - in such a way as to make them serve this rapacious, relentless pursuit.)

    We know that one of Obama's principal foreign policy advisers is Zbigniew Brzezinski, an incorrigible Great Gamester and one of the unsung architects of the modern world. It was Brzezinski who, as Jimmy Carter's National Security Advisor, devised the strategy of arming and funding violent Islamic extremists in order to destabilize Afghanistan and bait the Soviets into a military intervention to bolster their client regime in Kabul. Brzezinski can thus lay claim to being one of the fathers of the global jihad that has spawned - and been used to justify -- so much death and suffering....and so much profitable permanent war. We know that Obama has called for the American military to be even larger and more powerful, more ready to strike anywhere in the world with overwhelming force whenever the nation's "interests" - defined solely by the elite - are "threatened." We know that his plan for "withdrawing" from Iraq involves leaving an undetermined number of troops in the conquered land, carrying out the same "missions" which they are supposedly conducting now: training Iraqi security forces, fighting terrorism, protecting American assets and personnel, bringing "stability to the region," etc. And as Jeremy Scahill points out, Obama's plans could also lead to an increase in the number of private contractors - mercenaries - in Iraq. Obama has refused to support legislation banning the use of these volatile hired guns in war zones.

    In all of this we can see that Obama is a "safe pair of hands" for the militarism that underpins the never-ending quest for America's "full spectrum dominance" over world affairs. The "hope" for genuine change in this regard is a tragic illusion, a hope projected onto, not embodied by Obama.

    At least in the case of militarism, there is not a great deal of hypocrisy involved on Obama's part. His allegiance to the imperial project is fairly open. The domestic front, however, is a different matter. Here too Obama has become a blank screen onto which the hopes of millions for some kind of rectification of the ever-worsening economic and social injustices in American society are being projected. And again, while an Obama presidency would not be as openly radical and predatory as the Bush Regime in the pursuit of elitist profits, his choice of advisers gives every indication that his actual policies would differ largely in management and presentation, not in essence. Yet unlike the case with Obama's unabashedly militarist statements on foreign policy, the dichotomy between his progressive rhetoric on socioeconomic justice and the agenda of some of his top advisers and backers means he cannot escape the charge of hypocrisy.

    A new report from Consortiumnews.com puts this in stark relief. It tells the back-story of the Finance Chair of Obama's campaign: a woman who was instrumental in devising and pushing the same kind of sub-prime loans and predatory lending practices that he now routinely denounces in public. Dennis Bernstein reports:

    [In 2001], 1,406 people...lost much of their life savings when Superior Bank of Chicago went belly up in 2001 with over $1 billion in insured and uninsured deposits. This collapse came amid harsh criticism of how Superior's owners promoted sub-prime home mortgages... But this seven-year-old bank failure has relevance in another way today, since the chair of Superior's board for five years was Penny Pritzker, a member of one of America's richest families and the current Finance Chair for the presidential campaign of Barack Obama, the same candidate who has lashed out against predatory lending.

    ... Though Superior Bank collapsed years before the current sub-prime turmoil that is rocking the world's financial markets - and pushing those millions of homeowners toward foreclosure - some banking experts say the Pritzkers and Superior hold a special place in the history of the sub-prime fiasco.

    "The [sub-prime] financial engineering that created the Wall Street meltdown was developed by the Pritzkers and Ernst and Young, working with Merrill Lynch to sell bonds securitized by sub-prime mortgages," Timothy J. Anderson, a whistleblower on financial and bank fraud, told me in an interview. "The sub-prime mortgages," Anderson said, "were provided to Merrill Lynch, by a nation-wide Pritzker origination system, using Superior as the cash cow, with many millions in FDIC insured deposits. Superior's owners were to sub-prime lending, what Michael Milken was to junk bonds."

    In other words, if you traced today's sub-prime crisis back to its origins, you would come upon the role of the Pritzkers and Superior Bank of Chicago.

    As Bernstein notes, the Pritzkers' move into predatory lending schemes stemmed from an earlier instance where elitist profit and privilege were exalted over other concerns: the savings-and-loan scandal of the 1980s (which saw one feckless scion of privilege, Neil Bush, walk away after costing taxpayers $1 billion to cover for his sweetheart deals with cronies). The same overriding aim to protect the privileged from the consequences of their actions was evident throughout Superior Bank's sorry saga:

    Superior was founded at the tail end of 1988 in the wake of the failed Lyons Savings Bank. The Feds were trying to keep a lid on the magnitude of the S&L post-deregulation crisis and were selling failed or failing thrifts for a song, along with a lucrative package of special benefits. Chicago's billionaire Pritzker family and their partners bought Lyons Savings for a quite reasonable $42.5 million, but were also given $645 million in tax credits. The kicker was that the buyers only had to come up with $1 million in cash, and got access to the $645 million, and all the bank's deposits insured by the Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation (FSLIC).

    ...In a 2002 article in In These Times about Superior Bank's collapse, business writer David Moberg reported that the bank's operations were "tainted with the hallmarks of a mini-Enron scandal...And yet the bank's owners, members of one of America's wealthiest families, ultimately could end up profiting from the bank's collapse, while many of Superior's borrowers and depositors suffer financial losses."

    Moberg wrote that "the Superior story has a familiar ring. ... Using a variety of shell companies and complex financial gimmicks, Superior's managers and owners exaggerated the profits and financial soundness of the bank. While the company actually lost money throughout most of the '90s, publicly it appeared to be growing remarkably fast and making unusually large profits. Under that cover, the floundering enterprise paid its owners huge dividends and provided them favorable loans and other financial deals deemed illegal by federal investigators.

    "Superior's outside auditor, which doubled as a financial consultant, engaged in dubious accounting practices that kept feckless regulators at bay. Many individuals --disproportionately low-income and minority borrowers with spotty credit record s-- had apparently been exploited through predatory-lending techniques, including exorbitant fees, inadequate disclosure and high interest rates."

    Anderson said the bank owners and board members used Superior for their pioneering work in sub-prime lending, developing the financial instruments that helped set the stage for the current sub-prime meltdown...

    "This is a story of two Americas with two sets of laws, one for the rich and powerful and another for the rest of us," said Clint Krislov, the depositors' attorney, in a recent interview. "My clients will all be dead, before they get back their money, given the Supreme Court's recent decision to uphold the lower court, which put the predatory owners on the front of the line, if any money is recovered."

    Obama has now put one of these "predators" in charge of his campaign finances; doubtless she - or someone else of that ilk - will be placed in charge of the nation's finances if he makes it to the White House. Thus once again, it appears that any hopes that an Obama presidency will produce genuine structural change in a system designed to perpetuate harsh injustices on behalf of a privileged elite will also prove to be a tragic and painful illusion.

    And so the question returns to the individual conscience: do you choose to support the chance - the hope - for some mitigation of the system's evils? Or do you reject the system altogether? Again, this is a balance that each person must strike for themselves. But it should be done with eyes wide open - and no illusions.
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    Parent

    I think it's an assumption that is going to hurt (none / 0) (#30)
    by Anne on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:09:04 PM EST
    a lot more than people realize.

    What a lot of progressives I used to think were very smart seem to be assuming is that Obama has no intention of kowtowing to the Republicans or Independents whose votes he is courting, but there is simply nothing in what he has said, and nothing in his record, that indicates that this is what he is up to.  

    You can't build a bi-partisan anything if, once you have the WH - or any office - you abandon a whole segment of the voters who put you there.  What you get is a backlash from people who feel betrayed and bamboozled into buying a product that isn't going to deliver.

    I hear nothing from Obama that indicates that he will ever start from a position of other than compromise, and that bothers me a great deal; there is so much that needs fixing where there simply is no place for compromise.

    There just doesn't seem to be any fixed line in the sand for Obama - and his willingness to keep re-drawing it makes me think he will get bogged down in the various coalitions and voting blocs and find himself unable to settle with any certainty on anything.

    The key is going to be Congress - a progressive Congress could keep Obama on a more left-of-center course, which would be a good thing.

    Parent

    Chopping your Coalition (none / 0) (#60)
    by Socraticsilence on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:33:12 PM EST
    I don't know it worked for Clinton when he threw GLBT's and the lower class under the bus, and he got re-elected in a landslide in 1996.

    Parent
    Excuse me (none / 0) (#70)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:18:22 PM EST
    but Bill Clinton certainly did NOT throw GLBTs under the bus.  If anything, he pulled them out of the way of a speeding bus.

    US out of the way, I should say.  If you don't agree with this, then you have a very convenient memory.  

    Parent

    That seems to be common in the (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:20:59 PM EST
    Obama camp selective memory about the 90's.  I guess it comes from watching to much MSM and listening to talk radio,

    Parent
    or closing their eyes/ears and singing (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by hellothere on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:38:17 PM EST
    lalalalala until time for an obama speech.

    Parent
    That TimesOnline article (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:49:02 PM EST
    The Times wouldn't have been stretching the story with info from unnamed "senior advisers" now would they? That never happens after all, does it.

    And isn't it actually quite common to hint you just might reach across the aisle for appointments? Whether they ever actually materialize is another thing.

    And I did note that the only direct quotes from Obama himself in the article were:

    "Chuck Hagel is a great friend of mine and I respect him very much."

    and

    "I think America deserves the best person for every job and so we are going to be canvassing far and wide if I am fortunate enough to be elected."

    Hmmm.

    All that said, I fully expect a President Obama would govern not as a progressive but as a centrist. I have no illusions on that, though I'll be delighted if I'm wrong. But that would include a number of policies that would not be enacted by either a conservative administration or a weak and heavily opposed more traditionally liberal one. Half a loaf being better than no loaf at all, and all that.

    Obama progressive (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by lentinel on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:11:13 PM EST
    I am a progressive that thinks that Obama's so-called "bipartisanship" is nothing more than pandering to the right-wing.

    While he's not ideal... (none / 0) (#83)
    by Alec82 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:59:43 PM EST
    ...this progressive still voted for him, and I don't think it is pandering.  Pandering is when you change or design policy positions to appeal to the right, known as triangulation when President Clinton did it.  He hasn't done that, as far as I can see.

     With respect to foreign policy, he is the only candidate I can line up behind in the primary.  Senator Clinton's positions disturb me, and Senator McCain's positions terrify me.  Rank arrogance is a political achille's heel in this area, and globalization is not going away.  Technological changes and global migration patterns have ensured that.  I am very concerned about an area our Iraq distraction is killing us on: East and South Asia.  We are in desperate need of reform in China, India and Pakistan.  I suspect that energy and realist concerns about China and India were a component of the Iraq war, but that is a disastrous approach.  

     Either way, Senator McCain's approach is never going to be something I can line up behind, so I will of course vote for Senator Clinton if she is the nominee.

    Parent

    Have you read, re foreign policy (none / 0) (#84)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:28:26 AM EST
    the links that were provided to you (on other threads) to articles by Joe Wilson and others? After reading those, I find it hard to understand how you could consider Obama's record stronger in foreign affairs.

    Parent
    Admittedly.. (none / 0) (#86)
    by Alec82 on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:48:30 AM EST
    ...I don't remember seeing those links.  Could you point me in their direction or provide them again? I respect Wilson and I am happy to read them.  

    Parent
    Wilson on Obama (none / 0) (#87)
    by tree on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 01:03:53 AM EST
    Okay... (none / 0) (#90)
    by Alec82 on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 01:58:26 AM EST
    ...I read them.  I have mixed feelings.

     1. Re: Subcomittee hearings.  Very mixed feelings, because I am distressed that subcomittee hearings on other key issues have proven meaningless.  I really just don't know.  And admittedly I despise the Democratic leadership for their role in validating the most obvious excesses of this administration.  

    2.  Re: Support for Bush's policy in 2004.  Very difficult, because to me it means at the very least a draw.  An additional problem is that, conveniently after the election, President Bush admitted that much of the intelligence that supported the Iraq war was incorrect.  Also, Senator Feingold has stated that he prefers a candidate who was present in the Senate and voted against the Iraq war or, in the alternative, a person who opposed the war in 2002, which leads me to believe that the intelligence presented was very, very weak.  I do agree with a friend of mine who supports Senator Clinton that she was probably privy to intelligence gathered during President Clinton's presidency, but for me that is just not enough.  Sorry, I thought it was a disastrous decision at the time and although it was politically unpopular I took every opportunity presented to me to speak out against it. To be fair, I also said that the removal of Hussein would be a positive, but I was very concerned about the vacuum he would leave.  Because my position on Iraq when I was 20 was true, I am disturbed by anyone that supported it.  I really feel it was a politically calculated vote, and the senators I most admire voted against it.  On the other hand, I was not privy to intelligence that Senator Clinton was probably privy to, particularly intelligence on WMDs gathered during the Clinton administration.  

     3.  Pakistan.  Hyperbole on Mr. Wilson's part and I just don't buy it.  He makes compelling points on a lot of issues, that is not one of them.  Any pragmatic president would do exactly as Senator Obama suggested, and I believe that is true of Senator Clinton.  It is an unfortunate but necessary political and military reality.  Pakistan must reform and their nuclear technology must be regulated and controlled.  

     4.  Iran.  A problem for Senator Obama, admittedly.  I really do not like the fact that he was not present for the vote on the revolutionary guard, but I am more disturbed by Senator Clinton's lack of a vote on FISA telecom immunity.  The latter is a much more clear cut case.  I am very disgusted by the idea that the house would vote for immunity.  I do think, though, that we need to engage in talks with them.  In 2006 I started to feel very weary about a proxy war between the US and Iran in Iraq.  

    1.  General Clark.  I agree with Wilson that he was an early opponent of the Iraq war, one of the many reasons I voted for him in the primary in 2004.  Alas, not enough.  I like him and I hope Senator Clinton chooses him as a running mate if she wins the primary, but I am just not convinced it can explain away the Iraq vote when he will not be the president if she is elected.

    2.  I do not like their positions on Israel, and I spent four months on a project to assist Palestinian economic law reform in 2006, my first substantive exposure to the issue.  They are both far too supportive of Israel.  I am not alone.  My first cousin's husband is serving in the military and believes Israel's behavior is simply inexcusable.  To be fair, he also believes Senator McCarthy was an American hero.  I do not agree with that point, but I agree that we need a more balanced perspective that we will be denied in 2008, regardless of the candidate.

     I appreciate the links.  They did force me to think about my vote.  Do you guys have anything on East Asia or South America expert critics of Senator Obama?  I am willing to read them.  Also, my best friend from undergrad is a lifelong Democrat who has moved to Texas, and someone who closely follows every election.  She plans on supporting Senator Clinton despite my attempts to persuade her.  If you offer more foreign policy reasons to do so, I will gladly give them to her.  

    Parent
    SS is in crisis or so Obama and the (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:49:49 PM EST
    Republican Party have said but then the MSM has said it so many times a lot of other people say it too.  The only reason there may be money problems in SS after 2052 if something is not done comes from the fact that Government has been borrowing from it to pay the National Debt.  Obama campaign web page says he opposes privatization and he has said this other times.  But then he also says "everything is on the table".  To me this is what creates confusion about his position either you won't consider privatization or everything is on the table you can't have both.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    "Bamboozled" (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by OldCoastie on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:53:43 PM EST
    this word seems to fall too easily from Obama's mouth.

    Most of the evidence... (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:22:42 PM EST
    ... suggests Obama will be a cautious, fairly moderate president.

    • No universal health care plan, and in fact argues against universal health care.

    • Apprently plans to appoint Republicans to important Cabinet positions.

    • Thinks Ronald Reagan curbed the excesses of the 60s and 70s, reined in a government that had grown and grown without accountability, and brought clarity, dynamism, and entrepreneurship back to America.

    • Three very centrist ecomonic advisers, one of whom apparently went and told the Canadian government not to worry about NAFTA.

    • A very limited response to the housing crisis that does not include an interest rate freeze or moratorium on foreclosures.

    • Calls the GOP the party of ideas for much of the last 10-15 years.

    • Barely ever makes the case for the Democratic Party over the Republican Party.

    • Thinks Social Security is in "crisis".

    • Plays on people's fears of having their wages garnished, sometimes known as taxation.

    • Allowed an anti-gay singer to raise money for him.

    • Refused to have his picture taken with Gavin Newsom during San Francisco's season of gay marriage. (A moment that nearly burst my heart with pride, I should mention.)

    • Generally says the problem with Washington is that Democrats and Republicans bicker too much, not that the Republican Party has gone off its rocker.

    In contrast, I can't think of a single position on which he's taken a stance much to the left of Hillary Clinton, who is generally reviled among the self-proclaimed guardians of progressive politics as the worst kind of centrist Democrat. (I disagree with that viewpoint, but that's not relevant here.)

    Also, I've heard the argument that he has policies on his website. Those don't matter unless you talk about them and make the case for them. Bill Clinton didn't make health care a big priority in his 1992 campaign. George W. Bush didn't talk about privatizing Social Security, though I'm sure there was something on his website about it. In the end, they didn't have the mandate for this kind of thing, and it didn't pass.

    A lot of self-described progressives seem to have projected their ideals on a relatively unknown candidate. A lot of them are going to be pretty disappointed once he actually starts governing.

    Obama and Online Dating (3.00 / 2) (#45)
    by echinopsia on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:45:53 PM EST
    f I did not know that the people around me were talking about Obama, I would have guessed that I was among a group of excited fans, infatuated with a rock singer, or a movie star. In fact, when I ask Obama supporters about how they expect him to fare against other US presidents, their general answer is that he is likely to be the best president of all time (some think he will be second to JFK).

    Since the emotions and excitement toward Obama seem to be those usually reserved for romantic attraction, I would like to draw on some lessons from our research (Mike Norton, Jeana Frost, and I) on the ways in which people form impressions about others in romantic settings and the pitfalls of their impressions. What we found is that although people expect that the more they get to know another person the more they will like this person, in reality familiarity breeds contempt!

    As it turns out, on average, the more we learn about someone, the less we like them. Why is this the case? When we get partial information about others we tend to fill in the gaps optimistically; we assume that they are wonderful, just like us and that they share our exact values and preferences. This may sound like a recommendation to not reveal much about ourselves and as a consequence gain more affection. However, this approach also presents a possible trap: As people learn more, their over-optimistic interpretation dissolves, the disappointment begins, and from then on the disappointment escalates, leading to lower and lower liking. For example, imagine that someone writes that they like music. You assume that it is the same music you like (blues) and you immediately like this blues-music-lover. But when you learn more, you discover that in fact they like classical music, and once you encounter this one disappointing fact, everything you learn afterward is colored by that initial disappointment.

    So, what does this say about Obama? In my estimation one of the charms of Obama is that we know so little about him (we definitely know less about him than about Clinton), and I assume that this lack of knowledge, coupled with our tendency to fill in the missing information in an over-optimistic way is one of the reasons for the Obama love fest. It also means that we should expect a hard and disappointing awakening as we learn more about Obama and realize that he is not the super-human we now imagine him to be.



    Source


    Is it a theory of change? (none / 0) (#1)
    by dk on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 06:58:51 PM EST
    Or a theory of winning an election while basically guaranteeing an inability to govern?

    Obama & Online Dating (none / 0) (#4)
    by surfmonkey89 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:06:22 PM EST
    Here's a great article from an MIT professor comparing the Obama lovefest and online dating. If he's right - and I think he is - there will be a backlash. It's just a matter of when.

    http://www.predictablyirrational.com/?p=162&date=1

    Behavior (none / 0) (#11)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:48:10 PM EST
    I think he is right too.  I wonder if people really felt like victims of Bush during the national nightmare of his presidency, 8 long years, consistent pressure and felt so powerless that they were looking for a rescuer or savior.  He's right in that expectations are so high and when one falls off the pedestal, it is very, very bad. Victims again.

    Parent
    well that's just great America... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:26:39 PM EST
    ...jump right into another hasty relationship. Don't come crying to me when things go sour. ;-)

    But seriously, I think there will be a backlash and many of the Obama supporters that I know fear the same thing simply because too many people have been projecting everything that they want onto Obama.

    Parent

    How hard is it...? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:27:36 PM EST
    ...to outmaneuver and outthink the MSM?  Not very...if you have conviction and courage and genuine creativity.  But those are in short supply, no matter what the Hillary and Obama partisans might believe in their deluded hearts about their candidate.  That there hasn't been a moment yet when either candidate just looks at one of these MSM jerkoffs and says, "You know what?  That's ridiculous, you're ridiculous, when are you going to start acting like a free American journalist and actually report on something that AFFECTS the American people, instead of gossiping about things that only affect the busy-body nature of this horrid campaign season and coverage?  When?  Can you give me a date, I'd like to make sure my mom can be there and witness a miracle before she dies."  In other words, at what point is one of these candidates going to offer us that "Have you no decency, sir?" moment that finally ended Joe McCarthy?  It is long overdue.

    we had our chance (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Nasarius on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:56:27 PM EST
    With John Edwards. It took real guts to run a campaign like that, advocating liberal policies without apology or equivocation, and speaking passionately in clear, moral language about our responsibility to all Americans.

    We had our chance, and instead we chose the usual tepid incrementalism. There's a quote from The West Wing that I've always loved: "American voters like guts. And Republicans have got 'em."

    Somehow, the essential truth of this statement still hasn't sunk in for the Democratic Party.

    Parent

    bill clinton did this in sc, and (none / 0) (#89)
    by kangeroo on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 01:54:36 AM EST
    look at what the media did to him in retaliation.

    Parent
    I think Bowers is off the deep end (none / 0) (#13)
    by Tano on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:48:29 PM EST
    as has become so popular in some circles, with this looming scary notion of the ruling media elites and their "high-Broderism" nonsense.

    Its taking a snapshot descriptive understanding of media influence and postulating it as some permanent behind the scens governing force.

    The media were entranced with Ike in the fifites - the leader in the great struglle that many of them were part of. The media environment was not favorable to Dems. Along came JFK and he had them eating out of his hand. Then came the late-sixties and established circles became very afraid of rioting in the streets and "sane" Republicans got good press. Until Nixon really showed us all what Nixon was and the press turned on him too. Reagan was the complete bumbling idiot-actor until he somehow won the hearts of 60% of the people and the media tagged along.

    The media does not control this country. They write to the conventional wisdom - something that is defined by forces that they might have some influence over, but do not in any way control. Repbulicans have been a very strong force in Washington DC for 28 years now, controlling either the White House or the Congress or both for 26 of those 28 years.

    Starting next January, there is the very real possibility that all that will change. Dems will control everything in town. Reporters will need to suck up to Democratic administration officials, Democratic Congressmen, Democratic staffers, if they have any hope of doing thier jobs, of gaining access. Even lobbyist groups will be hiring Dem-sympathizers in order to get better access for thier clients.

    We will define the CW. They will write about it. Thats how it works. People really need to put the recent past into some realistic perspective.

    Correction: Republican administration (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by MarkL on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:50:29 PM EST
    officials. That is guaranteed, if Obama and McCain are the nominees.
    The press doesn't need to push Obama towards the right. He is happy to go there on his own.

    Parent
    Nice One (1.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Socraticsilence on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:37:33 PM EST
    Yeah and Hilary will govern as a strong progressive, I mean I'm sure she wouldn't basically throw a large portion of her coalition under the bus like her husbana actually did. Seriously, your argument boils down to: "I think Obama will be as bad as Bill Clinton actually was" and then you choose to ignore who the triangulators of the 90s are backing now.

    Parent
    Judging by his advisors and the people (none / 0) (#66)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:52:16 PM EST
    surrounding him I think it is Obama.

    Parent
    context is everything. (none / 0) (#91)
    by kangeroo on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 02:01:43 AM EST
    there was a huge conservative movement (and backlash) when bill was pres.  by contrast, dems have a much better electoral landscape today, especially in this election.

    Parent
    Tano great quote! (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by kmblue on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:16:01 AM EST
    We will define the CW. They will write about it. Thats how it works.

    Your quote above is straight out of the Rove playbook on handling the press.  You have learned your lessons well.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:52:33 PM EST
    I'm making a comeback Tano.

    Watch the insults please. One more and you are gone.

    Parent

    My son's friends voted for Obama (none / 0) (#37)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:18:44 PM EST
    because, they said, he said at a rally that he would start a program that would allow them to get paid $4,000 a year for volunteering.

    I said, "oh, you mean like Americorps -- which we already have?"  And I showed them that's what it already pays and that Clinton calls for that level to be increased.

    They voted for Obama, anyway.  And really couldn't say why, beyond this program he wants to start that would allow them to get paid . . . etc.

    I suppose it is possible... (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:11:10 PM EST
    ... to appeal to voters across the aisle, even if their representatives in Congress resist - that is how Reagan got a conservative agenda through a fairly liberal congress. But I haven't personally seens signs that Obama has the sort of clear-cut progressive princibles that would suggest he'd do that - instead, he seems like a less polarizing version of Bill Clinton.

    Bill (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:24:29 PM EST
    Wasn't polarizing in 1991.


    Parent
    He was already pretty polarizing... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:36:33 PM EST
    ... once the '92 election was in full swing. But at the time he was elected, he was still viewed partially the way Obama is today.

    I liked Bill Clinton, and still do, so from me that's not really a knock. But I do think it's a reminder that politicians almost never turn out to be as transcendent as it seems they might when they are still covered in New Car Smell.

    Parent

    Clinton - several fronts re student aid (none / 0) (#56)
    by oldpro on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:21:07 PM EST
    First...google "Hope Scholarships & Lifetime Learning Credits" - a Clinton tax-relief 1997 bill, I think.  More people have gone to college on Hope scholarships than the GI bill.

    Also, one thing the Clintons tried to do was take students loans away from the middlemen...the banks...since they are 'federally guaranteed loans' anyway with the feds backing up the banks, students could save half or more of the interest by making those loans federal to start with.  Both Republicans AND some Democrats on the banking committees killed that one.

    Affordable college/education has always been an issue for Hillary Clinton...as First Lady of Arkansas and as First Lady of the US and as a US Senator.

    That's a start...

    I linked my son (none / 0) (#85)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 12:33:47 AM EST
    to the Clinton website, where you can look at her plans for higher education, for college students, etc. He found it informative. And yes, as the poster above says, the Hope program and others have made major improvements for financial aid for a lot of students I know; they just don't know that those were Clinton plans. Also, you'll be glad to know that the Clinton White House in the '90s won back the great program we had when I was an undergrad -- but not when I was a grad student in the Bush '80s. So it was too late for me in the '90s, but I was all for it, as it means you get to deduct your student loan payments from your taxes, once you graduate and are working. That means a lot when starting out at entry-level pay. And you can bet that it will not be lost under another Clinton administration.

    Parent