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TPM Comes Clean: Accepts Its Partisan Obama Site Status

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

This post proves it. Doing a mashup attack video used to be something reserved for Republicans from Josh Marshall's Talking Points Memo. By doing an attack video on Hillary Clinton, TPM demonstrates that not only has it become an Obama site, it is one of the most virulent and unfair of such sites. The honesty is good. After all, like Nancy Pelosi, we all knew this. What was lacking was the candor to admit it. With his latest tactics, Marshall has ostensibly admitted what we all knew anyway. Pelosi should follow suit.

Now if only NBC will admit the same.

< Friday Open Thread | Dog Bites Man: Media Unfair To Hillary >
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    Because what the world needs right now (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:53:51 PM EST
    is a over-starched Drudge imitator.

    Drudge is honest about what he is (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:59:41 PM EST
    Marshall was not, until now.

    Parent
    Well, he's not exactly honest (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:05:28 PM EST
    but he doesn't maintain for the world that he's fair and balanced.

    Parent
    Haven't been to TPM (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by magisterludi on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:56:36 PM EST
    in months. Too much hypocrisy and spin. JM did such an incredible one-eighty, pointing out the hypocrisy of others in the past, and now seemingly incapable of recognizing his own.

    I suspect he's salivating and possibly attacking HRC more vociferously because he sees the chance to be a kingmaker for the next generation. I think Kos and Yglesias fit this mold, too. I believe their motivations are more than a little self-serving.

    Being close to the Obama campaigns, they can smell all the money and power, especially the power. I heard the scent is almost irresistible.

    BTW- I've always found MY kinda weird and esoteric. He gets into some real irrelevant minutiae.

    Parent

    Some honesty from MSNBC (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by kenosharick on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:54:47 PM EST
    would be refreshing. Every night they "analyze" every word spoken by both Clintons for the "real meaning" meanwhile Obama merrilly skates by with no scrutiny from the media. The repub. party will not play so nice in the general.

    Disgusting and how will he ever get his (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by athyrio on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:55:07 PM EST
    credibility back after all this is over....

    Answer what? (5.00 / 7) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 02:59:01 PM EST
    I know it would seem ironic to an Obama MAMA, but to a reasonable and honest person, my point is quite clear.

    Honesty, look it up.

    BTW, I missed the Obama attack video I prepared. Can you link to it?

    Can you answer my comment? Of  course not. Not honestly of course.

    the irony is (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by Turkana on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:10:17 PM EST
    that someone going by the name "obamamama" would claim to understand irony.

    Parent
    My actions EXACTLY match my claims (5.00 / 7) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:12:07 PM EST
    Compare my actions to my claims.

    You will find they match up exactly.

    But for an Obama MaMa, blind worship is required or you can not say that you prefer that candidate to the other.

    My record on this blog is clear. I have written many things that displeased Clinton supporters. Ask them.

    But you demand blind cult like fealty in order to be able to say the truth - I do not much like either candidate, but think there is not a dime's worth of difference on the issues between them and I think Obama is more electable.

    Hence, I prefer Obama to Clinton.

    That is my honest view. I write what I think. I always have and I always will. I have never been afraid to buck the blogosphere CW.

    Anyone who knows my blogging for the past 5 years knows that what you write is ludicrous.

    I do not need anyone's good will on the blogs. I get to say what I think. I am one of the few I think.  

    Parent

    I'm a Clinton supporter, and I approve (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by echinopsia on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:51:32 PM EST
    the above message.

    BTD isn't pro-Clinton, but it would be easy for an Obama mama to think so, because he is fair.

    He is one of a rare breed of Obama supporters. In fact I think he might be the last of his kind.

    Parent

    My take is that this is a place (5.00 / 4) (#117)
    by Anne on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:11:39 PM EST
    where, as long as one can be civil and refrain from name-calling and profanity, one's views can be expressed, and one can agree, disagree, offer another way to look at something, vent, whatever.  Jeralyn and BTD write posts on subjects that interest them - I think they attempt to be even-handed, are willing to criticize their candidate of choice, and are never reluctant to correct something they posted that was wrong.

    If someone doesn't like the posts, or the comments, there is nothing forcing them to read or participate - there are plenty of other blogs to sample.

    There's very little garbage here, a lot of thoughtful and thought-provoking comments - it is a pleasure to have conversations with people who take the time to construct an argument rather than resort to flinging mud; call me crazy, but that helps me out here in the "real" world, as I encounter people whose arguments are the bumper-sticker, talking-point variety, and who cannot explain why they spout the nonsense they do.

    I am ever so sorry that you will not find blind adoration here - of any candidate.  There may be a majority of Clinton supporters here, but trust me when I say that we know all about her flaws and her weaknesses - but when there is non-stop criticism and smearing and blatant bias being directed at Clinton from all sides of the media spectrum, sometimes just trying to be heard above all that noise can sound over-the-top, but someone needs to speak for us - so who better than us?

    If you don't like it here, don't participate - it's that simple.

    Parent

    BTD claims he's anything other than pro clinton? (1.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Faust on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:10:22 PM EST
    I haven't seen him claim that.

    Parent
    You are wrong (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:12:55 PM EST
    I am anti both of them really.

    But given a bad choice, I think Obama more electable.

    Parent

    The problem with you (5.00 / 5) (#129)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:26:31 PM EST
    is that you require support to actually mean "enthusiastic SYFPH closed ranks support."  

    Parent
    If I make (none / 0) (#137)
    by clapclappointpoint on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:39:56 PM EST
    five disparaging comments about you and your friends, and one midly supportive one, would you consider me one of your supporters?

    Parent
    Neither of these candidates (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by lilburro on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:01:39 PM EST
    are your friends.  Duh.

    A political party should be more dynamic than just 'GET IN LINE.'

    Parent

    Critical does not equal disparaging (none / 0) (#138)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:42:20 PM EST
    and your real friends always tell you the truth.

    Parent
    If it's constructive criticism (none / 0) (#141)
    by clapclappointpoint on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:56:58 PM EST
    I wouldn't want to be on the end of something really negative.

    Parent
    A bad choice? (none / 0) (#44)
    by AF on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:17:56 PM EST
    They are two of the three best Democratic presidential candidates since JFK.

    Parent
    I think you damn with faint praise (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:20:23 PM EST
    Fair enough (none / 0) (#54)
    by AF on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:22:29 PM EST
    Depends on what you mean (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:20:40 PM EST
    by "good candidate." JFK was barely elected.

    It was left to Johnson to implement the programs AND win in a landslide.

    Parent

    I'm sure that many Hillary supporters (none / 0) (#81)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:43:52 PM EST
    (myself included) think Hillary is a great candidate----better than Bill, in terms of her values, though not as charismatic, but sharing with Bill a passion for policy and huge intelligence.

    Parent
    Ok then! (none / 0) (#51)
    by Faust on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:21:30 PM EST
    Thanks for clearing that up :)

    Parent
    "anti both of them" (none / 0) (#124)
    by magster on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:20:14 PM EST
    is more honest than saying you're an Obama supporter, as you have in the past.  "Supporter" does not fit you. How about "Obama begrudger"?

    Parent
    Bitter bitter bumble bee (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by blogtopus on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:03:38 PM EST
    Haven't you seen the several times that Jeralyn has stated, very clearly, that this site is not intended to be balanced, but is supportive of her choice for candidate?

    You know, just about all I've seen from Obama supporters on this site (with admirable exceptions, of course) is a game of 'no he didn't' or 'it doesn't matter' or 'Obama MEANT this'  in the face of overwhelming facts / logic.

    Many of his supporters are pretzeling themselves into hilarious positions so contorted they can't tell the time of day without looking into their own a**es. Some of them, like BTD, actually like to hold their candidate to the same high standard (if not more) that everyone else is holding the Clintons to.

    There is no irony at all (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:13:38 PM EST
    is your are intelligent, reasonable and not a cult member.

    Parent
    Again, it's puzzling (5.00 / 8) (#15)
    by eric on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:06:28 PM EST
    that JMM has gone so anti-Hillary crazy.  He is the last person that I would have expected to be so openly hostile.  His blog, up until this primary season, was very professional.  Slowly it began turning - many times with posts written by Kurtz, but also JMM himself.

    I'll ask it again - what is happening to people?

    People are insane (5.00 / 12) (#60)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:27:11 PM EST
    Look at this thread. There are a couple of posts questioning BTD's Obama support because he has said some things critical of Obama. Apparently, for many the only true support of a candidate is if you never ever question anything.

    It seems like not that long ago that on these same blogs, people would rail against Republicans who would never question the actions of Bush no matter what he did. People talked about the lock-step mentality as a negative thing. And here are Democrats doing the exact same thing. You're with us or you're against us.

    In this new Dem world, if you support a candidate you must never question them. And any other candidate must be pure evil. And anyone who deviates from this is obviously being deceitful about who they really support.

    It's a shame so many respected bloggers have fallen into this same thinking.

    Parent

    Precisely (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:30:03 PM EST
    The blogs think they are part of the campaign for the candidate they favor. It is just plain bizarre.

    Parent
    Naomi Klein's great article (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:33:38 PM EST
    Naomi Klien has a great article titled:  Players, Not Cheerleaders

    Her point is basically that the blogs should have pushed the candidate to take more progressive positions instead of taking sides and becoming cheerleaders.  Great Article.  

    Parent

    Due respect to Naomi Klein (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:35:41 PM EST
    But I was doing that long before she wrote that article.

    Parent
    Yes... (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:37:05 PM EST
    I know, that is why we stay here, finally, someone else is joining you.  

    Parent
    You were saying that (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:38:40 PM EST
    long before it came down to two. kos used to agree with that, I think.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#161)
    by joyce1 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:20:26 PM EST
    A very good article, something we don't see too often these days.

    Parent
    As I remember DKOS in '04 (none / 0) (#92)
    by fladem on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:55:41 PM EST
    this doesn't really represent a change.

    Parent
    I know you have said this many ways before (none / 0) (#144)
    by Marvin42 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:09:42 PM EST
    But for some reason this clean plain way of saying it cements it for me. What a shame. That really describes what has gone wrong in this entire process.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 4) (#112)
    by The Maven on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:07:27 PM EST
    and more than anything else, that's what's been driving me crazy this cycle.  For pretty much all my life, I'd enjoyed playing the role of devil's advocate, pushing against people's reasons for support of a candidate or position by doing whatever I could to poke holes in an argument or point out logical inconsistencies.  My reasoning, flawed as it might be, was always that successfully countering my efforts would ultimately make the position or candidate stronger and less vulnerable to attack.

    But this time around, it fairly quickly became clear that merely expressing skepticism was tantamount to an act of betrayal, and any criticism whatsoever -- no matter how merits-based -- would be viewed as a kneecapping ad hominem attack.  The double-standard, of course, being that Cinton was basically always seen as fair game, while other Dems of equivalent prominence were seen as off-limits in the regard.

    Like BTD, with whom I have disagreed on various issues over the years, I only wish that the willingness to brook such scrutiny of each candidate could be done without all the accusations and invective that has come to pervade so much of the blogosphere.  What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and all that.

    And as you mention here, this all does not bode well for how these same folks would respond to the inevitable letdowns and disappointments in a potential Obama administration:  would they become bitter, cynical and hardened against a "betrayal", or would they become enablers, excusing away even the inexcusable?  Neither would be good for the Democratic Party, obviously, but the possibility of going through the next four or eight years with blinders on is truly appalling (to me, at least).

    Parent

    Weirdly (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:24:15 PM EST
    It also seems that the blogs that used to be critical of MSM coverage now 1) jump to defend it, 2) feed into it and 3) are blind to facts outside it.

    Too many have become just a superficial, reactionary and "meme" driven as the pundits they used to despise.  Perhaps a taste of green room food is like the forbidden fruit....

    Parent

    Talk (none / 0) (#84)
    by sas on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:46:33 PM EST
    about a cheap rag.

    Parent
    Kurtz is funny especially (4.80 / 5) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:07:27 PM EST
    HE railed against those of us who urged a primary of Lieberman.

    Now he hates Clinton.

    Schizo.

    Parent

    Ouch (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:09:02 PM EST
    Don't you think TL is schizo (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:12:24 PM EST
    also if you compare Jeralyn's advocacy to BTD's?  

    Parent
    Two different people (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:13:54 PM EST
    So what you say doesn't make any sense.

    Parent
    It does when J says TL is this or (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:16:33 PM EST
    that and BTD is adamantly taking the opposite position.  I enjoy it; just think its funny.

    Parent
    Um, no (none / 0) (#43)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:17:41 PM EST
    but whatever.

    Parent
    I sign my posts (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:18:31 PM EST
    And indeed Jeralyn and I disagree on many many things.

    This campaign is merely one of many issues we disagree about.

    Parent

    You sign your posts and Jeralyn=TL (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:21:47 PM EST
    which includes you.  

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:23:11 PM EST
    TL is Jeralyn.

    Parent
    no, because (none / 0) (#37)
    by eric on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:15:43 PM EST
    it is all out in the open.  Nobody is claiming to be neutral here.

    So I guess you could say it's schizo but they take their meds here.

    Parent

    they need to step down (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:08:10 PM EST
    in order for the new younger progressive blogosphere with new ideas and hope to make history and change the world. It's time for the old to step aside. Snark.

    What's the difference (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by frankly0 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:11:30 PM EST
    between Josh Marshall and Tweety?

    Well, I'm sure Tweety wouldn't feel comfortable calling out for mashup attack videos; he knows even his meager fig leaf of journalistic integrity and objectivity wouldn't allow it.

    And so our A-list bloggers become lower and more despicable than the MSM they purport to criticize.

    Marshall's bias is in fact more contemptible than that of, say, Kos, because Marshall pretends to have a site that reflects some journalistic evenhandedness when it comes to Democrats. Even TPM's most important story, the political firings of the AGs, hung on input from all kinds of Democrats across the nation, otherwise the pattern would not have been noticable and demonstrable.

    I wonder how many of those Democrats would now refuse to help TPM along? I know I would never do anything to help that bias besotted site. And how many Democrats in the future will be glad to join them in a venture to fight for a larger Democratic cause, as many did when they fought back against the move to privatize SS? (Now so unimportant to TPM, apparently, given that Obama has declared that SS is in a "crisis", contradicting the former TPM, uh, talking point that it most definitely was not.

    Kos does what he does (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:16:34 PM EST
    Never made any bones about it.

    Parent
    I really don't agree with this (none / 0) (#80)
    by fladem on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:41:12 PM EST

    Well, I'm sure Tweety wouldn't feel comfortable calling out for mashup attack videos; he knows even his meager fig leaf of journalistic integrity and objectivity wouldn't allow it.

    And so our A-list bloggers become lower and more despicable than the MSM they purport to criticize.


    The essence of blogging is point of view. This is one of the things more interesting.  

    I have no problem with what Josh, or Markos, or Jeralyn or Jerome are doing.  There are playing the role of advocate.  There is absolutely wrong with that.  

    For the record, its never been my thing, but then I am not even a B or C list blogger.

    Parent

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:51:30 PM EST
    Are you saying Josh has openly embraced the role of Obama advocate in this race? Before he strenuously denied it.

    Parent
    One more thing (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:12:18 PM EST
    I fully expect him to claim, even after this, that he is neutral.

    Honesty (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by themomcat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:13:47 PM EST
    The main reason I was drawn to this site is that Jeralyn and BTD will not tolerate smearing of any candidate. The rules are clear. Support the candidate of your choice honestly and civilly. I stopped reading TPM when his bias became blatantly obvious. The shame of it is that after this is all over, regardless of who wins the primary or the general, I will most likely never go back there or donate to his blog. What a shame.

    TPM (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:21:27 PM EST
    TPM pretends to be a journalistic site.  Does TL claim to be a journalistic site?  I don't think so.  TPM is partisan but creates the delusion of real new gathering and truth vetting.   I found it mediocre and rather juvenile in it's tone, even though when I agreed with them .   This is where it becomes deceiving.  Many consumers of news, who just get their news from sources like Josh are obviously not informed and they do not learn how to question.  

    Even though TL is not journalistic, the standards force the participants to look beyond partisanship and to question what they  read from all sources.  

    Yup, TPM has done some great work (5.00 / 0) (#58)
    by kmblue on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:24:48 PM EST
    in the past, but they've been slip slidin' away.
    Over the edge with this video.
    Yet another blog I used to read daily and
    can read no more.

    Parent
    It's a good point (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by eric on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:33:01 PM EST
    about he journalistic nature of TPM.  They have titles: publisher, editor, reporter, and he even lists his "masthead".  JMM created a great blog and family of websites by commenting in a journalistic tone.  He doesn't do the "support this candidate" type posts or raise money or any such things.  It's a different kind of website from Eschaton, Kos, MyDD, etc.  I have enjoyed reading it for the insight, the investigations, and the professionalism.

    However, JMM and his staff are completely trashing their reputation.  I am not saying this as a partisan.  By any objective analysis, TPM has morphed into an anti-Hillary/pro-Obama website.

    And I wonder why.

    Parent

    Exactly... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:35:06 PM EST
    Did he not also just win some journalistic award?  

    Parent
    Completely Agree (5.00 / 0) (#56)
    by lyzurgyk on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:23:27 PM EST
    Talking Points Memo used to be my "go to" site for fair-minded left-oriented political commentary.    Now it's an unreadable cesspool of Hillary hate orchestrated by Marshall himself.    I wonder if the Obama campaign has promised him some sort of compensation...

    my go-to site (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Imelda Blahnik2 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:13:34 PM EST
    Until about two weeks ago TPM was the first site I'd check in the morning, even though it had been grating on me for weeks. I wrote Josh several times regarding smears, biased posts, etc., and while he did respond each time, his responses essentially belittled my questions or chided me for not understanding his point.

    I'll have you know that TalkLeft is now the first site I check in the morning. Seriously. Yes, there is lots of pro-HRC stuff on here, along with genuine criticism of many of her positions and cringe-inducing statements, but there is also sanity and respect. And civility.

    Parent

    No, Josh (none / 0) (#157)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:34:19 PM EST
    just doesn't want to be left off the Obama bus and miss the great wave of history that might happen.

    Remember he was pretty strongly pro-Iraq war before it became an obvious debacle.

    Parent

    I saw Josh Marshall (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Iphie on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:28:12 PM EST
    maybe a month or so ago at Bed Bath & Beyond. I contemplated introducing myself and asking him in person if he could understand why one might come to the conclusion that his site is pro-Obama and anti-Clinton. (I say in person because I've emailed that same question to him before, using specific examples, and he's never responded -- nor have I ever seen him quote any pro-Clinton email on the website.) I didn't approach him, but given how obvious his bias has now become, I wish I had.

    It's always more fun (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by kmblue on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:31:55 PM EST
    to be ignored to your face! (snark) ;)

    Parent
    I (5.00 / 0) (#99)
    by sas on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:57:36 PM EST
    don't care what he is.

    I don't read him anymore.  And I am better off for it.

    Shills (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by garage mahal on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:00:30 PM EST
    TPM, HuffPo, Olbermann are all afraid of the same thing. Clinton will not give them access if they get the White House. Pure and simple.

    Only question that remain is whether progs like Marshall in the event of an Obama presidency, if they would pursue a story like the attorney firing scandal. Wonder if they'd run with it, or be shills. My guess is shills.  

    Motivations (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Lou Grinzo on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:11:17 PM EST
    I keep asking myself what's going on with JMM, KO, etc., and I think it comes down to one of two possibilities:

    [1] The access argument you mentioned.

    [2] They've bought into this idea that Clinton is somehow more vulnerable to attacks from the Republicans and will be much harder to elect.

    (Note that I completely reject [2] as a valid concern.  If anything, I think Clinton is the safer bet simply because the Republicans have run her through the wringer so many times, while Obama has so much more downside potential, so to speak.)

    Whatever is driving them, the result is highly unprofessional.  Journalists of every stripe should be above such overt bias.  KO really drives me nuts, and I can no longer watch his nightly spin sessions laced with endless snippy one-liners about Clinton.

    Frankly, I'm exhausted by this cycle.  I voted in my state's primary (what feels like) about 27 years ago, and I think the D(ean)NC are going to load the dice for Obama to get the nomination as much as they can.  I just hope he can win in November and then be the excellent president my country desperately needs right now.

    Parent

    They all act like people who know (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:17:06 PM EST
    that they've made a very risky bid (on Obama).

    Parent
    Yeah, I agree with this. (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by frankly0 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:31:41 PM EST
    I'm absolutely sure that one of the unspoken reasons they are so very insistent that Hillary get out of the race and stop criticizing Obama is because they know in their bones that he's a house of cards, and the slightest wind of criticism will make his entire candidacy collapse in a heap.

    That's why they couldn't stand the 3 AM ad -- because it so effectively got at what they know his vulnerability was, which, in their minds, should not dare to speak its name. That's why it drives them crazy when the Wright issue is brought up, because they know how much protection he needs on this point.

    Parent

    Why (none / 0) (#162)
    by joyce1 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:40:05 PM EST
    does Obama want Hillary to get out of the race so badly? What is he afraid of? Could it be that he thinks that she could win a few of the next primaries by a big margin? And the difference between the two on the campaign trail is that he talks about how great he is and she talks about the issues in great detail. The corporate media is on his side cause what they want is a third Bush term and they know that McCain would beat him easily. So sad that the Dem leaders don't seem to realize this!

    Parent
    Access? (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:35:14 PM EST
    Yippee.
    A whole new crop of Judith Millers!

    I'm in favor only if they get to chill in the clink like she did.

    Parent

    How things have changed (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by echinopsia on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:03:42 PM EST
    I can barely believe it myself. (none / 0) (#146)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:33:02 PM EST
    "play to win"?

    Parent
    What happened???? (none / 0) (#158)
    by lilburro on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:56:25 PM EST
    This demands explanation.

    Parent
    so are the same people (5.00 / 0) (#113)
    by english teacher on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:08:04 PM EST
    who screamed about rev. wright being characterized unfairly by "thirty second sound bites" which could not do justice to a thirty year career now saying something different wrt an edited video of hillary?    

    that because the video is "factual" and contains "real footage" of "actual statements", it is a legitimate encapsulation of her positions and character?

    why yes, i do believe they are.

    Indeed (none / 0) (#122)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:18:27 PM EST
    Not that what Clinton said was comparable.

    Do not forget the Reagan praise by Obama demands for context by Josh Marshall.

    Look, we all know the deal. Folks want to look ridiculous then they will.

    Parent

    Reagan praise (none / 0) (#164)
    by Imelda Blahnik2 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:28:04 PM EST
    I wrote Josh a couple of weeks ago regarding comments Obama had made saying he would consider Chuck Hagel for Secretary of Defense. Those statements were nowhere on TPM. Nothing. Yet there was yet another posting about some idiotic thing Mark Penn had said. Why, I asked Josh, had he posted numerous quotes from the mouth of Mark Penn, not a candidate but a pollster, yet omitted any mention of Obama's statements? Chuck Hagel had voted for the AUMF. Chuck Hagel is a Republican. Is this not troubling that a Democratic candidate is considering appointing a Republican to Secretary of Defenses? (and not some lesser Dept. like Transportation)? Is this not newsworthy, something voters might like to hear?

    Josh's emailed response was that the story had been reported in the British papers (the Sunday Times), and that he did not "trust" the British papers on US elections. He didn't think they were reliable news sources. I kid you not.

    I was astounded. This was a few days after TPM had linked to Drudge regarding the pic of Obama in Somali garb. Josh, following Obama's lead, blamed Hillary for that, and never followed up on it.

    I wrote back. All I said in my second e-mail was "So, Sunday Times = bad, Drudge = good"?

    Josh's response to me: I didn't understand the point he had made in his email.

    I guess in a way he was right.

    Parent

    That says how far Josh has fallen (5.00 / 0) (#166)
    by ding7777 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:52:34 PM EST
    Even if Josh did not "trust" the Sunday Times - it was a lead.

     The old Josh would have flushed it out and reported on it; the  new Josh just ignores it.

     

    Parent

    i was referring to (none / 0) (#143)
    by english teacher on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:09:30 PM EST
    obama supporters who have commented on these threads, not josh marshall.  

    Parent
    But look how many posts TPM had (5.00 / 0) (#118)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:14:17 PM EST
    on the McCaskill and Kerry racist gaffes!!
    I mean.. someone saying that she was glad to have a black candidate who isn't a victim.. OUCH.
    TPM covered that, right?
    And Kerry saying Obama's qualified because he's black? Double ouch!!
    How many times did Josh write on those subjects?
    I forgot.

    No you didn't. ;) (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by kmblue on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:33:24 PM EST
    Because he didn't.

    Parent
    Talk Left Should do the same (1.00 / 5) (#25)
    by PGHKid on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:12:17 PM EST
    What fake ass righteous indignation from talk left - this site, especially Big Tent have been Pro-Hillary/Anti-Obama from day one.  So just admit it.....

    Jeralyn is pro-Hillary (5.00 / 6) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:15:56 PM EST
    and admits it.

    You do realize she writes her post and I write mine?

    OF course not. Honesty and intelligence are not the hallmarks of blind worshippers.

    Parent

    Was there Anything on TPM "Mashup" (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by TearDownThisWall on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:35:00 PM EST
    Video that is/ was untrue?

    Are these sites (Kos/ TPM/ TL/ Drudge)designed to tell the truth?
    or
    to promote their favorite candidates/ ideas/ agendas/ ???

    According to Alterman, and IMHO (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by kmblue on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:45:25 PM EST
    websites on the internet that purported to report news (like TPM) began as an alternative to the MSM.

    That's how TPM gained cred, with their outstanding reporting on the U.S. Attorney story, for which they won a Polk award--the first won by a freakin' blog.

    But now TPM has gone over (again IMHO) to the dark side, by abandoning journalistic cred and trashing a Democratic candidate with a mashup vid.

    I would condemn TPM just as strongly if they did it to Obama.

    But I stopped reading TPM a while back, as Josh's bias became evident.

    Parent

    Was there any such video of "true" (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:46:33 PM EST
    statements from Obama? As a matter of fact, it was not "true" in that it is edited to take statements out of context. If it were done to Obama what TPM did to Clinton by say, Fox, Josh Marshall would be up in arms.

    The irony is of course that Clinton said nothing but the truth about Jeremiah Wright and Josh Marshall was up in arms about her statement.

    So was I BTW.

    I really detest commenters and bloggers who are so dishonestly hypocritical. That means you too.

    Parent

    What? (none / 0) (#128)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:26:03 PM EST
    No he wasn't. Ypu are confusing you TPM smears of Clinton here.

    Parent
    Gimme a break (1.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Garmonbozia on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:34:38 PM EST
    I'd like to start off by saying that I've been a reader of this site for YEARS. For at least a year of that time, this site was at the absolute top of my blog list.

    But please...lay off the sanctimony about any other blog being pro-Obama. While you (BTD) and Jeralyn both claim to be at least neutral (and you claim to be leaning toward Obama), this site has been the most consistently pro-Hilary site among the left blogs. Not that there's anything wrong with that in and of itself. It's a teensy bit dishonest, but please don't drop another 40 stories in my opinion of you by continuing to vomit hypocrisy like this post.

    Like my father used to say, "make sure your own toilet's flushed before you go pinching your nose at someone else's."

    "virulent and unfair"? (none / 0) (#7)
    by clapclappointpoint on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:01:09 PM EST
    TPM is obviously pro-Obama (I think I remember JMM mentioning it once), but it is far from "virulent and unfair".  I think JMM tries to  If you want that, go check out these lovely folks.  Heck, you do more shilling for Hillary (as a self-proclaimed "Obama supporter") on an average weekday than he does for Obama.

    JMM has steadfastly denied it (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:03:30 PM EST
    And he has been VIRULENTLY anti-Clinton. He did an ATTACK video on her!!

    You gotta be kidding me.

    Parent

    in ObamaWorld fair = shilling n/t (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:03:34 PM EST
    BTW (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:05:33 PM EST
    Your reaction is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

    Can you point to one post where I "shill?" Perhaps the one where I criticized Clinton for discussing Wright.

    BTW, if you are comparing JMM to Taylor Marsh, I agree with the comparison.

    Parent

    TM (5.00 / 5) (#30)
    by nell on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:13:25 PM EST
    is different because she is a self professed Clinton partisan. She does not claim to be neutral and makes this very clear. So she is different because she is honest about where she is coming from.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:14:06 PM EST
    I think Taylor Marsh (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Iphie on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:17:23 PM EST
    openly acknowledges her support of HRC. JMM doesn't and then tries to pass off his very clear partisan attacks as coming from an objective observer.

    Parent
    You shill (1.00 / 2) (#57)
    by clapclappointpoint on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:23:49 PM EST
    when you take the Clinton position on nearly every issue (I'd be interested to know which issues you feel you take the Obama side on).  You attack all the Clinton campaigns' targets (Dean, Pelosi, MoveOn, the DNC, etc) just like any other Clinton surrogate.  When the Clinton campaign attacks, you defend it; when the Obama campaign responds, you decry it.  On top of all this, you pepper your posts with inflammatory adjectives that serve no purpose but to inflame passions (on both sides).

    I understand that TL has a specific editorial view (which perhaps you have to maintain to stay here), but you are being fundamentally dishonest if you think your work here is not in support of the Clinton campaign.

    Parent

    I take MY position (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:27:59 PM EST
    Was it the Clinton position when I attacked her for caving in on DLs for undocumented aliens? When I criticized Bill Clinton, Andrew Cuomo, Bill Shaheen, and Bob Johnson?

    When I criticized her for discussing Wright?

    When I applauded Obama on DLs for undocumenteds?

    When I urged a revote in FL and MI when the Clinton campaign was still arguing for the original vote? When I criticized the Clinton campaign for NOT fighting for revotes?

    When I urged her to accept a Unity ticket that might include her as the VP?

    You simply are full of it. You have no idea what I have written or why.

    A shill takes a position because it is what a campaign says. I have NEVER EVER done that.

    You can not name one time I have.

    You are a liar.

    Parent

    You should do a little more reading around here. (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by Iphie on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:36:37 PM EST
    There are plenty examples of BTD taking a contrary view of Clinton or of praising Obama. As a Clinton supporter, I can say that his recent suggestion that she accept the VP position on a unity ticket is most definitely not a Clinton position.

    Parent
    See here is the problem... (5.00 / 6) (#94)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:56:30 PM EST
    Agreeing with a candidate even if you don't support them is not forbidden - that is the perspective that the majority of Obama supporters I have come across fail to understand.  Not every idea, thought, or policy that Clinton has put forward is "evil" and "bad" or "worse" than Obama's - hell they're almost identical candidates anyhow - at least in the eyes of some of us who are watching this race.

    Some of us feel no real need to join either cheerleading squad.  Some of us are going to agree with each candidate when they say something we like and disagree when they say something we don't.  Somebody has to do it because ya'll certainly aren't.  I don't take any candidate "as is".  I want to hear them out and give them feedback because they are working for my support and ultimately my support - I have no obligation to be in their fan clubs.  They will be working for me and every other citizen in this country and I think they ought to be reminded of that early and often.

    As a relatively neutral party - except for the part where I vote for the Democrat in November - I have found the Clinton crowd much, much easier to hang around with because they by and large seem much more realistic about their candidate and willing to ask her to improve.  I find that very refreshing.  At this site in particular, it seems that people can have a reasonable and fact-based conversation - no one requires that I take an oath to give Obama my first born child and no one is insiting that I give a blood oath to Clinton.  I like that I can just be a Democrat here.  I am grateful to the gracious hosts who allow people to be who they are and who have not thrown truth and honesty out the window in favor of promoting any candidate.  

    Parent

    Re this quote: (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:52:57 PM EST
    Perhaps the one where I criticized Clinton for discussing Wright.

    I'm trying interpret your decision not to post on Obama's relationship w/The Rev. Wright.  Too volatile, given the comments to other posts about Wright?  A way of lending support to Obama?  I did see your comment that Obama should have sd. and done what HRC sd. a couple days ago.    

    Parent

    Support for the likely Dem nominee (none / 0) (#97)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:57:08 PM EST
    on a story that could be very damaging.

    Parent
    Admirable self-restraint. (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:02:39 PM EST
    But perhaps Obama would benefit from your thoughts on how to handle this mess.

    Parent
    TPM is less virulent and more fair (none / 0) (#65)
    by AF on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:30:06 PM EST
    Than most partisan sites -- present company excepted.  

    But it is a partisan site.

    Parent

    Less virulent (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:31:59 PM EST
    Not by much.

    Not now.

    Parent

    Josh Marshall (none / 0) (#78)
    by AF on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:37:23 PM EST
    Is getting more pointed in recent weeks.  Though the coverage of the Wright situation was pretty intense, and, until Obama's speech, not very positive.

    Greg Sargent has been straight down the middle, in my opinion.  

    Parent

    Greg Sargent is excellent (none / 0) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:56:27 PM EST
    and David Kurtz is willing to post letters (none / 0) (#100)
    by MarkL on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:58:31 PM EST
    that are not either love letters to Obama or heated calls for Hillary to drop out.

    Parent
    I disagree (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:06:40 PM EST
    Marshall is different than Kos and Bowers.

    OR he pretended to be. Kos and Bowers are doing what they always do - fight for their candidate.

    Marshall claims to not have a candidate.

    kos used to be able to credibly claim to be (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by Turkana on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:12:54 PM EST
    reality-based. gone.

    Parent
    That is a different point (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:14:25 PM EST
    heh (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Turkana on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:15:34 PM EST
    fair point.

    Parent
    He used to have a fairly diverse community (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:16:55 PM EST
    that would keep him honest.

    But I digress. . .

    Parent

    Your last iteration of your bio over at Orange (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jes on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:21:08 PM EST
    gave me giggle-fits late last night. Kudos.

    Parent
    So are you saying (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by MichaelGale on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:15:02 PM EST
    that gutter talk about a woman running for president is "fighting for your candidate"?

    That calling the woman a "pig", "idiot", "wrinkled old bag" and various other nouns I cannot repeat her..is fightin for your candidate?

    Please.  These men have become degenerates. Is loathing and disgusting.

    Parent

    I'd be quite interested to learn (none / 0) (#133)
    by clapclappointpoint on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:34:35 PM EST
    who, exactly, used these adjectives.  Links would be handy. I have a hard time seeing JMM or kos or Bowers calling anyone a "pig" or a "wrinkled old bag". Also, how is "idiot" a sexist insult?

    Parent
    Hm... (none / 0) (#46)
    by sweetthings on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:19:52 PM EST
    I confess I had not ever actually watched any of the Clinton statements in that video. (I get most of my news from NPR and the net, and deliberately avoided this issue after Jeralyn mentioned it was a non-starter for her.)

    I have a better understanding of why this is hurting her so badly now. I assume that the video has been edited to show Hillary in the worst possible light, but it's certainly effective.

    And to think this Dem-on-Dem stuff is going to go on until July. Ouch.

    It is edited as an attack video (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:22:15 PM EST
    a "Democratic" site attacking a Dem candidate for President. An "impartial" site with no favorite in the race?

    You know I am right about Josh Marshall. Everybody knows.

    The other blogs do not have the guts to call him out. I do.

    Parent

    I'm beginning to wonder (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by Fabian on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:32:56 PM EST
    if "scorched earth" isn't attributed to the wrong campaign.

    It's almost as if Obama surrogates have become mini-Bushes.  We used to wonder which Bush we would get every live blogged presser.  Obama's surrogates remind me of the petty, vindictive Bush with just a hint of the petulant Bush thrown in.  

    Hillary won't step down?  Then we'll punish her!

    (Of course my favorite Bush was the Gonzales resignation presser.  The first time I saw a terse, angry Bush.  He barely even bashed the Democrats at all.)

    Parent

    Oh (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by sas on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:55:23 PM EST
    this ir rich.

    Howard Dean calls for sanity and uniting.

    Now we have this attack video from TPM.

    Way to go buddy.

    Parent

    Obama calls for sanity and unity (none / 0) (#155)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:30:43 PM EST
    It's a fraud because he inspires his followers to this kind of personal attack followers and makes zero attempt to rein them in.  He does not believe in sanity and unity.


    Parent
    Josh email.. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:25:54 PM EST
    This last week I wrote TPM telling him how most of the Hillary supporters do not read him anymore, that he is sort of playing to his crowd.  I guess he now is convinced that they bailed.

    That seems improbable since we got just as many emails from Hillary
    supporters a month ago as a week ago as a day ago.  If you're right they all
    bailed in the last 24 hrs.

    The verdict is in, based on your post, he verifies that he is a one audience medium.  

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:29:04 PM EST
    HE gets the same number of e-mail complaining about him from Clinton supporters I am sure. LEt's face it, he has no credibility now.

    Parent
    Not exactly consistent of him... (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by frankly0 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:49:32 PM EST
    He remarked just a week ago or so that he got very few emails from Hillary supporters when he posted something strongly anti-Hillary, far, far less than when he might have done something like that in the past.

    Of course, what did he do with this fact? Use it as evidence that Hillary supporters were so demoralized that they wouldn't respond anymore, rather than as evidence that far fewer Hillary supporters read his junk than had in the past.

    You see, when you have a bias as large and overpowering as Josh's, everything that happens is only further evidence that you and your side can only be doing right, and you just have to figure out how to fit the evidence into that foregone conclusion.

    Parent

    Marshall now makes a habit (none / 0) (#156)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:32:32 PM EST
    of responding with snippy, condescending, sometimes outright insulting emails to people who disagree with him.

    Parent
    The Democrats (none / 0) (#66)
    by themomcat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:31:34 PM EST
    are eating their own. They have given fodder to the Republicans to use in the GE. The netroots, the blogs and the Mainstream Corporate Media are destroying the two best hopes we have of regaining the White House and restoring this country. How sad.

    Eric Alterman has (none / 0) (#72)
    by kmblue on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:34:35 PM EST
    a great article in the March 31 New Yorker about blogs and newspapers called "Out of Print".
    I just finished it.  Eric mentioned Josh.  With that tease, I'll let that o.t. mention go. ;)

    Go back to late '03, early '04 (none / 0) (#85)
    by Trickster on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:47:16 PM EST
    It wasn't as bad as it is now, but Marshall was clearly biased against Dean and in favor of Kerry.  He drew all sorts of uncharitable conclusions contra Dean.

    So this ain't a new thing, it's just an expansion of a previously shown characteristic.

    I thought he was pro-Clark then (none / 0) (#87)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:49:57 PM EST
    myself but not openly anti-Dean.

    Here he is anti-Hillary.

    Parent

    I don't think that is the point (none / 0) (#96)
    by fuzzyone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:56:46 PM EST
    First, I think the video is "accurate" in the sense that it is all real footage.  Clearly Clinton has made statements on several occasions  about her trip to Bosnia that are not accurate.  But it is also clearly a partisan attack.  I don't like it when Clinton and her supporters do it and I don't like this either.  I fundamentally don't like either candidate attacking the other this way whether it is Hillary and her supporters with Wright or this.  I'm interested in substance and in beating the Republicans. You don't do the later by imitating them and giving them a headstart in bashing the Dem nominee, whoever it turns out to be.

    Second, I think TPM makes a claim to be different than the other sites you mention it that it has pretensions to journalism that I think this video is not consistent with.

    However, it should also be noted that objections to such attacks on Obama are generally met on this site with the response that such attacks are permissible because the republicans will do the same in the general.  If that is your metric then there is nothing wrong with this video.  (To be clear, that is not my metric.)

    No comment was deleted (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:05:32 PM EST
    As for your LAST graf, I strenuously deny it. You are NOT telling the truth about this site.

    Parent
    You are right, I was unclear (none / 0) (#148)
    by fuzzyone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:35:00 PM EST
    I meant some of the commenters on this site.

    Parent
    This would have made more sense (none / 0) (#101)
    by fuzzyone on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:58:35 PM EST
    if the post I was replying to had not been deleted.  Not sure why it was, it just argued that there was nothing wrong with the video because it was accurate.

    Parent
    he stitched some clips (none / 0) (#98)
    by myed2x on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 03:57:28 PM EST
    together capitalizing on a story thats in the news....how the heck is that partisan??  He even says he is doing it b/c some of the other clips don't give the whole story, good journalism, just b/c you don't agree with it doesn't make it partisan, at least not from an impartial viewpoint.

    Oh my yes (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:10:00 PM EST
    I'm sure his mashup of every contradictory statement Obama ever made about Rev Wright will be soon to follow. I can't wait to relive that trainwreck. I just hope it doesn't make Obama look foolish (not that there's anything wrong with that).

    Parent
    I seem to recall (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by kmblue on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:36:00 PM EST
    some Obama folk shrieking about some Wright clips.
    Oh, never mind! ;)

    Parent
    Where is the Obama clip? (none / 0) (#103)
    by themomcat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:00:38 PM EST
    yeps (none / 0) (#104)
    by BethanyAnne on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:02:14 PM EST
    but protraying HRC in a negative light when she has done something wrong is somehow "virulent."

    Sigh...

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#110)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:04:28 PM EST
    Does it all the time with Dems doesn't he? At least once a month with Obama right?

    You folks are hilarious.

    Parent

    Ha!! (none / 0) (#108)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:03:42 PM EST
    Classic.

    Parent
    Accepts? (none / 0) (#106)
    by BethanyAnne on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:03:18 PM EST
    I see no evidence that TPM has "accepted" anything.  Maybe they have made something or other more clear to you, but that's a realization on your part, not theirs.

    The snark escaped you I see (none / 0) (#123)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:19:26 PM EST
    Such earnest Obama partisans.

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#120)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:16:26 PM EST
    You go with that one.

    This is an attack video.

    Why the harsh TPM attacks? (none / 0) (#135)
    by NYDem on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:37:57 PM EST
    First of all let me make clear that I am NOT a TPM troll, and I have no vested interest in this or any other issue discussed here or there.  I do happen to believe that TPM does a very good job as a journalism site.  And I believe that TL has done a very good job in its core area of talking about the intersection of crime, politics and law.

    I think that it is unfortunate that any of the major left blogs have become infected by the divisiveness of the Clinton versus Obama campaign.  Frankly to me, TL has become a lot less engaging as a site when so much energy is devoted, at least by Jeralyn, to openly campaigning against Obama.  I think we have lost sight of the fact that the key is to beat McCain in November, and that trashing each other's Democratic favorite is counterproductive.

    I also thought that the TPM video in question was not unfair. The Clinton campaign has been carrying on for days, if not longer, about the heroic trip HRC took.  But from the inception, not only did that seem odd but it was aggravated by the Clinton campaign who criticized anyone who questioned them, then gradually walked it back to a "mis-speak".  Get with it, guys: it's not a mis-speak when you tout the same, exaggerated scenario over and over.  It's a confabulation, intended to create an aura about you that is in contrast to the truth.  And to this viewer, at least, the video just matched up the statements made by HRC with contrary eye-witness accounts.  I have yet to hear anyone say why HRC's characterizations should be accepted or ignored.

    They're not harsh enough (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Camorrista on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:20:28 PM EST
    ...Trashing each other's Democratic favorite is counterproductive.

    Translation:  See how reasonable I am?

    I also thought that the TPM video in question was not unfair...

    Translation:  But Clinton had it coming.

    Get with it, guys: it's not a mis-speak when you tout the same, exaggerated scenario over and over.  It's a confabulation.

    Translation: Because she's a liar, you fools.

    And to this viewer, at least, the video just matched up the statements made by HRC with contrary eye-witness accounts.

    Translation:  Liar, liar, liar!

    First of all let me make clear that I am NOT a TPM troll,

    Translation:  Would you like to buy a bridge?

    Parent

    Oppo research Mash Up Video (none / 0) (#136)
    by garage mahal on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 04:39:41 PM EST
    BTD
    What do you presume Kos and TPM answer will be if Hillary is running for Senate reelection and the Republican opponents are linking to Kos/TPM to make a negative case against her?? Marshall paid someone to make that attack video that any 527 would run, and Marshall is giving it away for free.

    Showing what was actually said by the Senator, (none / 0) (#142)
    by halstoon on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:04:47 PM EST
    instead of say, by her pastor, would seem to be far from an "attack."

    The post clearly makes the point: here is what Clinton said, what others present said, and video of what happened; no Faux News voices, just people part of the story. Make your own decision.

    Yes, that "attack" is just completely over the top and a good prosecution exhibit to prove how much they don't like Sen. Clinton.

    If you wish to make a case for Clinton-bashing, it would seem you could come up with a better example. Just sayin'.

    TPM and Josh Marshall (none / 0) (#151)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:47:53 PM EST
    did more than almost anyone else to prevent the Republicans from privatizing Social Security in early 2005.  His terms Fainthearted Faction and Conscious Caucus were hits, and he did a lot of reporting on the positions of U.S. Congress members on this, and that reporting made its way into the MSM....

    His view was to keep the Democrats in Congress, then in the minority, united.  He watched Lieberman like a hawk.

    In early 2005, when most of the liberal blogosphere was defeated, Josh Marshall continued to fight on important issues....

    Now, he is being bashed by some here....

    How is the video unfair? (none / 0) (#152)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 05:54:28 PM EST
    It helps Obama but how is it unfair?

    I also don't understand (none / 0) (#160)
    by dem08 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 07:05:59 PM EST
    how this video is unfair or how it means that Josh Marshall, whom I do not read by the way, despite what knee-jerk Hillary Supporters will think, loses credibility over showing the truth as some comments here assert.

    Please allow me to make two points:

    First, This event is shocking because Hillary needs a better campaign staff. Hillary allowed one of her strengths, 80 overseas missions,   to be turned against her by her own words.

    Her staff knew that Hillary wrote differently of this event in her book and knew that Sinbad, who accompanied her, was saying that the Bosnia trip was good and meaningful, but not dangerous. Where was her staff?

    I am no longer a Hillary supporter, but the 20 hour days will lead to problems and the sheer number of times she brought this up really indicts her staff.

    Second, why didn't her staff think of what this narrative said about our Armed Forces and President Clinton? All she has to do is say, "We flew into a War Zone but thanks to our military, we were all safe. No only do they protect us by risking our lives, they protect us when we go to thank them."

    I wish Hillary had hired me. I think all along she has had the winning hand and her paid professionals allowed her campaign to shoot itself often and severely.

    Blame the progressive and left wing bloggers, blame the MSM and the people who have disliked The Clinton's all along, but how is her staff helping her win?


    Parent

    How many times is (5.00 / 0) (#165)
    by ding7777 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 09:47:46 PM EST
    a "sheer number of times"?  She mentioned it in Iowa last year and what? one or two other times?

    And Sinbad? Well,  

    September 2000 that quoted Sinbad as describing the situation in Bosnia as "so tense. It was Crips and Bloods
    ."

    Crips and Blood - doesn't sound very safe to me.

    Parent

    sorry to disagree ding777 (none / 0) (#168)
    by dem08 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 11:07:44 PM EST
    But Hillary's campaign really blew this one. Six times this year, up to and including March 24, 2008, she insisted that she faced sniper fire and/or a "cork screw landing" and/or people sat on their bullet proof vests, etc.

    Her staff prepared her speech on March 17th, after Meredith Veira asked he during the first week of January, 2008.

    Howard Wolfson defended Hillary's account on March 24, 2008 before backtracking in a later call the same day. She still insisted THAT day that there were "bullet proof vests" and the welcome ceremony had to be cut short.

    And her remarks about facing danger were an insult  to her husband, who presumably sent his wife and daughter into harm's way, and her protectors.

    And PLEASE remember, the trip itself was an actual accomplishment. She flew into a War Zone to thank the troops who welcomed her.

    If she reminds people that is what she did and that she made a mistake, if she reminds people how proud she was that our Armed Forces serve our country and how grateful she is that they protected her when she had the chance to remind them that people back home cared and care about them, if that was what Hillary Clinton said on her voice on March 24th, this story does not just go away.

    The Bosnia story itself, even after her mistatements becomes what it should have been all along: a good example of how she cares for her country and the brave women and men in its Armed Forces.

    Why aren't you angry at the people Hillary pays millions of dollars to? Our Armed Forces protected her; her paid advisers sent her out to face sniper fire that is all too real and lasting.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#153)
    by jcsf on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:03:15 PM EST
    You've got a strange notion of fair.  We will have to agree to disagree.

    So what is the alternative site? (none / 0) (#154)
    by Oje on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:04:15 PM EST
    I have been looking for a replacement to TPM. I have replaced my old sites, like Pandagon and dkos. So what are the best alternatives? Any suggestions?

    Also, what happens when Atrios decides that Clinton is the Queen of Hearts? He is recently been gazing into the rabbit hole...

    Josh Marshall is a clown (none / 0) (#167)
    by doyenne49 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 10:47:41 PM EST
    He should have a big red nose and a fright wig.