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Wolcott . . . Heh

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:46:37 PM EST
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By Big Tent Democrat

Wolcott. This is an Open Thread.

Note - Comments are now closed. A note of thanks to Flyerhawk for being a very good sport while we picked on him. Note to all of us, we should not have done that.

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    Wolcott . . . Heh | 213 comments (213 topical)
    Michael Berube (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:54:15 PM EST
    sums up my angst over Hillary's recent tactics perfectly well...

    've been using the Google all week to try to find out if a Democratic candidate for the presidency has ever praised his (or her!) Republican opponent on national security at the expense of his (or her!) opponent in a heated Democratic primary. Specifically, I've been trying to find out if there was any point in 1984 when Walter Mondale said, "I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold. I believe that I've done that. Certainly, President Reagan has done that. And you'll have to ask Senator Hart with respect to his candidacy," or any moment in 1968 when Hubert Humphrey said, "I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold. I believe that I've done that. Certainly, Richard Nixon has done that. And you'll have to ask Senators McCarthy and Kennedy with respect to their candidacies."

    Granted, it's not a fair comparison, since Vice-Presidents Mondale and Humphrey had significantly higher security clearances in the Carter and Johnson administrations than Hillary Clinton had from 1993-2001. But I'm just trying to locate any speeches or press releases in which Mondale gave the nod on national security to Reagan or Humphrey gave the thumbs-up to Nixon.

    So far, all I've come up with is a really obscure moment preserved in Ye Olde Google Cache, from a press conference in late May of 1860 when Stephen Douglas said, "I think that I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. Senator John Breckinridge has a lifetime of experience that he will bring to the White House. And former Illinois state legislator Lincoln has a speech he gave in 1858." But this doesn't seem terribly relevant. So it could be possible that we're seeing something truly unprecedented in American history. And that's really exciting!
    Um (5.00 / 12) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:55:58 PM EST
    How about John Kerry attacking Howard Dean in 2004? You folks need to stop acting so shocked. Let's deplore it but stop acting like it has never happened before.

    Wolcott is laughing at you.

    Parent

    Here Is Something Else From 2004 (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:23:08 PM EST
    From Doctor Dean:

    Dean: Chris, four years ago, my opponents got together and had a political action committee, all four of which, uh, contributors contributed to the thing, which morphed me into Osama bin Laden, so this is patty cake. This is a tough campaign between two well- well-spoken, smart people, either of whom are capable of being president of the United States. But this is not, by and large, out of bounds. Raw Story


    Parent
    My favorite line: (5.00 / 7) (#53)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:26:44 PM EST
    "Lawd, you'd think it was Judgment at Nuremberg, with all this lofty, Oscar-caliber emoting."

    Seriously!  Is this the Democratic Party or the Actor's Studio?

    Parent

    It's from (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by litigatormom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:28:11 PM EST
    the 5th floor of the Happy Valley Clinic.

    Parent
    Absolutely hilarious (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:27:14 PM EST
    and I want to know how Wolcott hacked into my family's heated emails lately.

    Last night, a sib actually sent an F. Scott Fitzgerald quote that said sib felt was oh-so-apt about Bill and Hill; excuse me, "Tom and Daisy."  And it was accompanied by an illustration.  I refrained from responding that said sib was being oh-so-stereotypically "creative class" about it all.

    And said sibs were absolutely Bill fanatics for eons.  Had baby pictures taken with him.  What is it with the turn-on-a-dime syndrome?  I don't get it.

    But Wolcott has got it down like nothing I've seen before.  A hoot.

    Parent

    What Dean forgot to mention... (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Dawn Davenport on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:30:01 PM EST
    ...was that the guy who created those Osama-turned-Dean commercials was none other than Robert Gibbs, who's now serving as Obama's communications director.

    Parent
    I'm fairly certain (none / 0) (#5)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:00:33 PM EST
    that John Kerry never praised George Bush in an attempt to disparage Howard Dean.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:01:47 PM EST
    All he said was the George Bush would kill him on the Commander in Chief issue.

    I wonder what he meant by that? Sheesh.

    You ARE intent in having Wolcott laugh at you I see.

    Parent

    And yet alarmingly (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:06:46 PM EST
    Bush did not prance around in the GE saying "look, even John Kerry admits I'm qualified to be CiC."

    Gosh, why not?  Because the whole point is that 2004 Bush, or McCain, doesn't have to resort to rhetorical cleverness to prove their CiC credentials.  Like it or not, it is self-evident to most of the electorate.

    Hillary still shouldn't have said it, but the hand-wringing is truly absurd.  Between this and the "as far as I know he's not a Muslim" flap, I'm truly starting to worry about people.

    Parent

    She should not have said it (5.00 / 6) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:09:27 PM EST
    And neither shouldhave Kerry. But this is exactly what Wolcott is talking about - this new fouind belief that she is breaking new ground here is so patently absurd, that one wonders if these people have a clue of what is actually going on.

    This goes from Josh Marshall to Matt Yglesias to well everyone on down to Flyerhawk here.

    These are not stupid people. What is wrong with them?

    Parent

    CDS (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:12:42 PM EST
    That's the only thing I can think of.

    Otherwise reasonable people would not be this disposed to think of Hillary Clinton as uniquely evil if the GOP had not spent a decade baking it into everyone's skulls.

    It's like everyone in the blogosphere gets to have their little "Rush was right" moment along the way in this campaign, when they finally realized the "truth" about Hillary.

    Parent

    And Wolcott rightly ridicules them (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:15:49 PM EST
    here, with Ken as the doppelganger for the lot of them.

    A bit cowardly of Wolcott truth be told. But a bit cowardly of me to not writer that in a post. But he raked me over the coals one time and I am not anxious to get in his crosshairs again.

    Parent

    Daily Frat (5.00 / 3) (#167)
    by Athena on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:46:18 PM EST
    That self-same diarist had recently deposited a nasty ad hominem comment to one of my posts recently.  An endless supply of sanctimony is apparent.

    Parent
    Moral Decision (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:57:51 PM EST
    If you watch closely enough, it is the same people who have come to the decision that it is a violation of themselves to vote for Clinton.  I have advised them to change their names.  The repeated indignation is annoying when it isn't laughable.

    Parent
    The problem is (none / 0) (#27)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:14:52 PM EST
    she KEEPS SAYING IT.  This isn't one isolated speech.  It is a campaign strategy.  And it will burn her or Obama.

    You have a quote where Kerry said that George Bush is competent?  

    Words matter.  General themes don't.

    Parent

    Ahhh (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:16:43 PM EST
    So if she had just said it once that would have been ok? How many times did Kerry say it? Do you know? Psst, it was more than once.

    Parent
    I'll ask again (none / 0) (#62)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:29:43 PM EST
    How many times did Kerry say that Bush was competent?  

    Parent
    Your energy level is truly impressive. (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:37:20 PM EST


    Parent
    I'm sorry (none / 0) (#77)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:40:02 PM EST
    how many times did Hillary say McCain is competent?  Every day y'all plumb that quote for more sinister implications.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by sander60tx on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:35:32 PM EST
    I wonder how many times she actually said it.  I think that it just keeps being replayed.  Each replay I've seen, she's wearing the same outfit, so I presume if she said it more than once, it was on the same day.  But, I really don't know what else she's said since then.  

    Parent
    No, no, you're just making excuses (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:51:34 PM EST
    as everyone knows that part of her evil strategy is to have exact replicas of every outfit, down to the accessories -- didn't you see Amy Poehler on SNL? -- so that you would think just this.

    Can you PROVE that cable tv ever reruns the same clip again?  Where is your link for that?

    No, clearly, you have been taken in by The Evil One and Her Campaign's Fashion Clone Strategy.

    As we say in Project Runway, she made it work! :-)

    Parent

    Please keep up (none / 0) (#86)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:43:39 PM EST
    BTD referenced a quote by Kerry which said that Dean was not fit to be President, as an example of comparable situation as what Hillary is doing.

    It would only be comparable if Kerry also said that Bush was a competent, or fit if you prefer, President.

    Parent

    George Bush was already president... (none / 0) (#172)
    by kredwyn on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:50:29 PM EST
    not qualified or not, he was already in the seat that Kerry was trying to win.

    And btw...given that "Hope" is an overarching and general message, you might want to be careful with statements like "Words matter.  General themes don't."

    Parent

    why should we have all the fun? (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:44:30 PM EST
    You ARE intent in having Wolcott laugh at you I see.


    Parent
    It's so easy (none / 0) (#98)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:46:36 PM EST
    to take cheaps at the person that disagrees with the crowd, isn't it?

    The problem with the blogosphere is that it resembles a schoolyard playground far too much.

    Parent

    You know what's sad flyerhawk? (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:05:43 PM EST
    Obama has so many legitimate positive attributes that make him a great candidate. I never asked any of the candidates to be perfect. I think he made a HUGE mistake going with the trash the Clinton strategy. Al Gore made the same mistake...running away from our strengths. In that sense he let the Republicans call the shots. What I want to hear from his campaign is why he will be the better president. Rightly or wrongly, I already formed my opinion that Hillary Clinton has what it takes to be president long before I even heard of Barack Obama. He had to overcome her name recognition and her excellent track record in my mind. While I admire her, I didn't necessarily start out this primary season convinced that she was the best candidate.

    BTW, I thought that Dean and Wesley Clark were better candidates than Kerry in 2004 and I still supported Kerry.  

    Parent

    Trashing Clinton (none / 0) (#127)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:08:03 PM EST
    is a purely subjective argument.  The notion that either candidate was particularly kind to the other is pretty ridiculous.

    Parent
    Well you won't give an inch, will you? (none / 0) (#132)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:12:42 PM EST


    Parent
    he gives lots of inches (none / 0) (#158)
    by tree on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:41:37 PM EST
    You just haven't noticed yet that he's carrying the goalposts when he moves

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#163)
    by RalphB on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:43:32 PM EST


    Parent
    Give an inch? (none / 0) (#162)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:42:58 PM EST
    You're trying to argue that Obama started it thus Hillary's attacks are ok.

    I'm saying they are both willing to attack each other yet I am the one who needs to give an inch?

    Parent

    Seriously, I'm just trying to get you to... (none / 0) (#170)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:48:54 PM EST
    ...lighten up.

    Parent
    Show me where I said that .... (none / 0) (#176)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:53:35 PM EST
    ..Hillary's attacks are okay because Obama started it. If I did say that, it was unintentional. And if all you are saying is that they are both willing to attack each other, then I quite agree with you.

    Parent
    I don't have a problem (none / 0) (#14)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:09:17 PM EST
    with Hillary criticizing Obama as being inexperienced.  I DO have a problem with her PRAISING McCain.  Why is this so hard to understand?

    Parent
    What is so hard to understand? (5.00 / 7) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:11:57 PM EST
    that you actually NOW argue, through some double flips of parsing, that what Clinton said was worse than what Kerry said.

    Kerry said DEAN was UNFIT to be Commander in Chief!!

    Clinton did not say Obama was unfit, she said she and McCain were more fit. Very bad indeed.

    But in the scheme of things, what Kerry said was so much worse it seems hard to me to believe I have to argue this point with you.

    But you and Berube are INTENT on having the vapors so you will have them.

    This is why Wolcott is laughing at all of you.

    Parent

    I had a problem with Obama praising Reagan. (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:12:50 PM EST
    But I got over it.

    Parent
    I haven't gotten over it. (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by Boston Boomer on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:04:04 PM EST
    Obama's admiration of Reagan is evident in his book in multiple references.  I don't think I can get over the McClurkin business either.


    Parent
    The McClurkin business was worse. (4.75 / 4) (#135)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:18:17 PM EST
    I actually haven't gotten over that yet.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#42)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:21:02 PM EST
    It took you and others 2 months to get over it.  And his praise was tepid and referenced a dead Republican not the current Republican nominee for President.


    Parent
    She didn't praise him.. (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by lectric lady on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:39:39 PM EST
    ...she merely stated a fact. It IS a FACT.

    There are a zillion reasons to trash McCain, but he HAS passed the threshold to be CinC.

    Parent

    The thing about (none / 0) (#91)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:44:54 PM EST
    facts is that the are incontrovertible.  2+2=4 is a fact.  The Sun rises in the East is a fact.

    McCain passing some nebulous threshold of Presidential ability is an opinion.  Nothing more.

    Parent

    It was not a compliment. (none / 0) (#138)
    by 0 politico on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:21:45 PM EST
    A considered opinion, perhaps,  not one I would have offered in public.  But, it is an opinion some may share.

    This is not something that we need to blow gaskets over, IMHO.

    Parent

    BTW (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:02:44 PM EST
    John Kerry on the capture of Saddam Hussein and what Dean said about it. Look it up and stop acting like a fan.

    Parent
    Here you go (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:07:22 PM EST
    BOn December 16, at Drake University in Iowa, Kerry asserted that "those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe today that we are not safer with his capture, don't have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected president."

    Are you shocked yet? Do you have the vapors again? Should Obama denounce and reject John Kerry?

    Please. you and Berube need to grow up.

    Parent

    I'm beginning to suspect Obama's (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:10:05 PM EST
    having Kerry speak for the campaign is like the NAFT/Canada communication.  I'm against the Iraq war in this campaign, but don't worry.  I'll stay the course if elected.  

    Parent
    You miss my point (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:13:57 PM EST
    Kerry was saying DEAN was unfit, UNFIT, to be C-i-C. VERBATIM. In express words with no wiggle room.

    But Flyerhawk, with an assist from Berube, has decided to have the vapors now and act as if he NEVER EVER saw anything like it.

    Which is why Wolcott is laughing at the lot of them.

    Parent

    One more time (none / 0) (#34)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:17:12 PM EST
    and the last time because now it's just a gang up argument.

    I DON'T CARE if she says that Obama is not fit to be President.  That is politics.

    I have a problem with her praising McCain.  Why is this so hard to understand?

    Parent

    Because praising someone may be (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:21:28 PM EST
    bad politics but it is not wrong if you really believe that the person has the qualities you are praising.  Sort of when Obama called the Republicans the Party of Ideas or something to that effect.  Not good politics but if he felt that in certain areas they had the ideas who am I to argue with his beliefs.

    Parent
    Why? Obama has praised plenty of Repubs. (5.00 / 5) (#44)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:21:36 PM EST
    He's said that McCain is an honorable man. Why is the CiC thing so sacrosanct? I don't like her praising McCain either, but sheesh, why is this the dealbreaker when Obama has done it too?

    Parent
    No. (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by Mary Mary on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:22:04 PM EST
    You have a problem with Hillary. Full stop.

    Please. Do you really think that no one in this country would have thought that John McCain is qualified to be Commander in Chief if Hillary Clinton had not said it?

    Parent

    On e more time (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:22:33 PM EST
    Folks like you are being satired by Wolcott for a reason.

    Parent
    Do you really think (none / 0) (#55)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:27:44 PM EST
    that I care what Walcott says?  

    What's funny is that I have a very specific criticism of Hillary.  I have stated countless times that I would vote for her in November, unlike MANY here who state they WON'T vote Obama in November.  

    And yet I am the one that is being satirized.  Yeah, ok.  Here's a tip for all of you.  When you start our a response "Yeah what she did was wrong but....." you're probably not making your point very strongly.  

    I am the one defending Obama on a heavily pro-Hillary web site.  I am not sitting comfortably in friendly waters getting outraged by every new faux outrage against my candidate.  

    Parent

    I'll take a vote cause I don't know... (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:31:50 PM EST
    Who here won't vote for Obama if he's the nominee? I'll vote for him, I've said so a million times.

    Parent
    I can name (none / 0) (#69)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:34:16 PM EST
    10 regular posters here who have said they won't vote for him or that he has to achieve some as of yet unknown goal to convince them to for him.

    Parent
    I have heard that many times from both (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:39:52 PM EST
    sides on different blogs.  But the majority of Clinton followers are life long Democrats not new comers or independents so they will vote for whoever the Democrats Nominate.  Can the same be said of the crossovers or independents Obama's campaign brags so much of attracting.

    Parent
    I speak (none / 0) (#81)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:41:41 PM EST
    soley of this blog since BTD chose to call me out as an example of Walcott's criticism.

    Parent
    Mind you that I believe BTD is pro-Obama (none / 0) (#85)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:43:08 PM EST


    Parent
    x (none / 0) (#94)
    by Mary Mary on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:45:33 PM EST
    I think you should've avoided the word "angst." And not quoted Berube. JMO.

    Parent
    x (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Mary Mary on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:40:40 PM EST
    I'll vote for him, but only after I travel to the polls on my knees, scourging myself with thorns,to show the proper penitence for committing such treason against my very soul.

    Parent
    Me too. And if he betrays me on (none / 0) (#96)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:45:58 PM EST
    SCOTUS nominees, I'll be the one marching on Washington.  

    Parent
    I told my dad about this cartoon (none / 0) (#115)
    by zyx on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:57:13 PM EST
    and he thought it was great--so I printed it (he doesn't use the 'net much any more) and mailed it to him.

    He voted for Obama in Wisconsin but said he'd be happy with Clinton.  He was a (Rockefeller) republican when I was a kid--and a career AF pilot.  His loathing of Bush and McCain actually kind of surprise me.

    http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh157/blogtopus/poli8.jpg

    Parent

    There's a petition online (5.00 / 2) (#207)
    by anniethena on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:38:54 PM EST
    link

    Obama Supporters Who Will Not Vote For Clinton in November

    Saw it on Huffpo this afternoon - it was a bit below 1600 signatures when I first checked and it's now over 1700. No idea when it started of course.

    You should check out some of the comments from the signers. This one's a beauty:

    Stop 'Wars for PROFIT'. Stop treating our Troops like second class citizens! Help them when they come home. Stop Profiteering by GOP'. World Domination is NOT the answer. REAL CHANGE means stopping the GOP.

    Amidst all the comments of "I'll stay home or vote for McCain"....

    Parent

    I take it you do not (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:28:49 PM EST
    But I found his post spot on, funny and devastating to people like you.

    Parent
    For the most part (none / 0) (#65)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:31:36 PM EST
    I don't care much for blogosphere self-flagellation.  

    It doesn't bother me but it doesn't interest me either.

    Parent

    Then why are you (none / 0) (#179)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:58:22 PM EST
    putting yourself through this misery in front of this audience?  

    <curtain slowly closes on scene of our hero setting down whip after flagellating self while giving stirring soliloqy against self-flagellation. . . .>

    Parent

    hey Cream are you a Drama Teacher? (none / 0) (#180)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:00:56 PM EST
    Reminded me of my Drama Class just now.

    Parent
    I'm dying here... (none / 0) (#125)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:06:59 PM EST
    I am laughing so hard right now I can't type!!!  This is so @##% funny!

    Parent
    Once again... (none / 0) (#93)
    by lectric lady on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:45:16 PM EST
    ... she didn't PRAISE McCain, she stated a FACT.

    Turn back the clock. Say McCain had been CinC on 9/11. Do you think he and his administration would have done what the Bushies did? I don't think so.

    I still detest McCain. I wouldn't vote for him in a million years because of 99.99999% of his beliefs. But the Fact is, he passes the CinC test, and Hillary, unlike you, understands that.

    Parent

    Once again (none / 0) (#101)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:49:36 PM EST
    she did NOT state a fact.  I have no idea what McCain would or would not have done.  

    BTW, do you have a copy of this CinC test?  I wouldn't taking it.  Is it like the SATs focusing mostly on fundamental secondary school knowledge or is more like the military ASVAAB, focusing on common skills? I'm not the greatest test taker but I would like to find out if I can pass the test to be CinC.

    Parent

    It is obvious (none / 0) (#174)
    by sander60tx on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:52:33 PM EST
    that if one bases fitness to be CIC on experience, that John McCain has much more of that, partly due to the fact that he is older.  People would have thought of on their own.  I don't necessarily think it's bad that she pointed that out, though I didn't really like tone of her comment.  I think she was trying to get people to think about how Obama would stack up to McCain in a CIC-creditials comparison.  Often when the question comes up, Obama brings up his good judgement (based on the speech he made in 2002).  She is trying to get people to think about how that comparison will look in a McCain-Obama race (experience vs. the judgement i.e., the speech) vs. how that will look if it is a McCain-Clinton race (more experience vs. being married to someone who was the CIC).  I don't think she should necessarily remind people about Bill (they haven't appeared together since Super Tues.) but it is relevant that she is married to someone who was CIC and that she would have the advangtage of his advice were she the CIC.  Whoever becomes president will have "on the job training."  She happens to be married to someone who, for better or worse, can personally provide it.

    Parent
    I got your point. Just venturing an off topic (none / 0) (#147)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:32:23 PM EST
    comment.

    Parent
    A quote like that is worth a 1000 words (none / 0) (#18)
    by lilburro on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:11:36 PM EST
    at least as far as Kerry goes.

    Parent
    Please indeed (none / 0) (#20)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:12:28 PM EST
    You need to spend more than 2 seconds understanding what the criticism is.  

    I think her tactic of praising McCain is not only bad for Obama, it is bad for Hillary Clinton and it is terrible for the Democratic Party.  

    This is a really difficult topic for Democrats to gain credibility on.  When Hillary cedes that the Republican is, in fact, experienced and competent on foreign policy issues you are ceding a huge point that won't be easy to walk back from.  

    It is really really really bad tactic.  

    Parent

    Strangely ... (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:14:14 PM EST
    the only people it seems to upset are Obama supporters.

    I wonder why?

    Parent

    I find it very strange (5.00 / 5) (#118)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:59:19 PM EST
    that no one is really looking at what Clinton said:

    "...I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold.  I believe that I've done that. Certainly, Sen. McCain has done that and you'll have to ask Sen. Obama with respect to his candidacy."

    So, what's Obama's answer?  "Here are my credentials!"?  No, his answer is, "that's not fair!  You said McCain was more qualified than me!  WAH!!!  I'm tellin' uncle Teddy!"

    Parent

    Because (none / 0) (#35)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:17:42 PM EST
    most Hillary supporters are content with attacking Obama and don't care about the repercussions down the road.

    Parent
    No because Hillary can claim just as much savvy (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:24:04 PM EST
    as McCain.  Let the voters decide who has a better grasp of Foreign affairs and the like and whose experience is more valuable when you debate and run against each other in the GE campaign.

    Parent
    Ironic comment of the day (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:28:00 PM EST
    Too funny.

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 5) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:19:10 PM EST
    but who gets apoplectic over a bad POLITICAL TACTIC and say someone is evil and they will never vote for them and that she is evil and oh, that she is evil.

    You are being quite the slippery eel in this thread.

    I hate the tactic and have said so.

    But the reaction from the rest of the blogs has been simply ridiculous. That is Wolcott's point.

    Did you read his piece?

    Parent

    Please (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:19:57 PM EST
    While she shouldn't have said it, it is hardly ceding a "huge point" with respect to John McCain.

    We are very, very unlikely to win the threshold argument of whether McCain is experienced enough to be President.  We can poke holes around the edges but that's about it.

    On the other hand, the argument as to whether Obama is experienced enough is far more up in the air, and we could well prevail on that point.  But a lot of people need to get over the idea that we were somehow going to persuade everyone that John McCain was a clueless newbie, before Hillary gave away the game.

    Parent

    Indeed (5.00 / 10) (#54)
    by litigatormom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:26:55 PM EST
    No one can credibly claim McCain lacks experience on military matters. The question is whether he's learned the right lessons, and drawn the right conclusions, from that experience.

    I would say no.  Despite all the "experience,"  what McCain doesn't have, IMO, is the judgment and temperament to be CiC. And lots of senior military officials agree.  

    Obama, of course, is making a similar judgment, based on one vote, about Clinton: that she lacks the judgment to be CiC because of a single act: her Iraq resolution vote.  Well, many of Obama's most prominent supporters, including John Kerry and Tom Daschle, made the same judgment. Is it hypocritical of Obama to accept their endorsements, and send them out on the road as surrogates?  

    Parent

    Of course not (none / 0) (#49)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:23:34 PM EST
    We aren't going to convince people that McCain is a newbie.  But we can convince people that he has terrible judgment that his past experience is irrelevant UNLESS we cede the points up front.

    Parent
    Hawk, do I understand that (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:07:25 PM EST
    (oh, this sequenced comment thread, ouch) to LitMom's query:

    "Many of Obama's most prominent supporters, including John Kerry and Tom Daschle, made the same judgment. Is it hypocritical of Obama to accept their endorsements, and send them out on the road as surrogates?"  

    The sum total of your reply, Hawk, was "Of course not"?  Could you, uh, explicate?  Why is it not hypocritical of Obama to so criticize Clinton's judgment for the same vote cast by those whose judgment of him we are to accept and even embrace?

    Parent

    Kerry even went so far recently as to say (none / 0) (#185)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:10:15 PM EST
    he doesn't fault HRC for not redaing the NIE before she voted for the AUMF.  

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#61)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:29:31 PM EST
    I do not believe Hillary ceded that point in any way.

    Do you really think that when Obama says "McCain voted for the war, you can't trust his judgment," he will come back with "aha! but Hillary Clinton said I had passed the commander-in-chief threshold!"  The very notion is absurd.

    Parent

    experience is not the (none / 0) (#177)
    by tree on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:54:20 PM EST
    same as judgment. Two different issues. Ceding the point that McCain has experience doesn't mean that you can't make an argument that judgment or temperament disqualify McCain. A smart politician will cede the points that can't be won, so as to focus on the one's that can. And only you are confounding experience and judgment. You are the only one ceding the point. No one else has, including Clinton.

    Parent
    Please. . . (5.00 / 4) (#178)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:58:06 PM EST
    I think her tactic of praising McCain is not only bad for Obama, it is bad for Hillary Clinton and it is terrible for the Democratic Party.

    There are certainly people who believe it's a mistake ever to say anything non-disparaging about the Republicans or individual Republicans.

    But very, very few of them are supporting Barack Obama's post-partisan, no-one-party-has-all-the-good-ideas campaign.

    We've been through six months or so of "don't vote for Hillary, she's too divisive, the Republicans hate here, Obama can swing Republicans and independents".

    Now, because Clinton acknowledged something that pretty much everyone recognizes -- that McCain's been around government for a long time -- that narrative is completely out the window?  Because Clinton said "McCain has the experience to be C in C" suddenly she's not divisive enough?????  And Barack Obama, the post-partisan candidate, is the one who's credited with never having a kind word to say about Republicans?

    Could we at least have some consistency?  If divisiveness isn't good politics, why is non-divisiveness also not good politics?  Tomorrow, when Clinton attacks McCain's policies is it going to be back to last months argument -- that we need to attract Republicans to win?

    Parent

    Wasn't HRC's comment that both (none / 0) (#25)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:14:16 PM EST
    she and McCain were qualified to be Commander in Chief and Obama should speak for himself.  CinC is different than foreign policy, although they are, of course, intertwined.

    Parent
    What she said was that both (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by litigatormom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:20:41 PM EST
    she and McCain brought a "lifetime of experience" to the job of CiC, but Obama brought a speech he gave in 2002.  

    I wasn't happy with her putting the issue that way, but BTD is right -- it's not like she's breaking new ground here.

    And if I'm not mistaken, Obama has called her credibiity and integrity into question while giving McCain a free pass on that issue.

    It is, sadly, what politicians do.  Even when its not smart politics.

    Parent

    OMG (5.00 / 2) (#212)
    by Warren Terrer on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:52:36 PM EST
    That tears it. Better that McCain be elected than a Democrat who said something nice about him. Let's all cut off our noses to spite our faces.

    Parent
    Right, and when Obama is Prez (none / 0) (#26)
    by lilburro on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:14:28 PM EST
    Chuck Hagel will handle foreign policy.

    Parent
    Don't Forget Lugar At State (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by MO Blue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:52:30 PM EST
    and Arnold somewhere or other. Makes you wonder if he plans to include any Dems in his cabinet.

    Parent
    Is Obama promising to take Arnold (none / 0) (#113)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:55:52 PM EST
    off our hands in CA?  

    Parent
    hummmm (none / 0) (#99)
    by lectric lady on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:47:19 PM EST
    She didn't PRAISE McCain

    Parent
    Also the famous ... (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:10:45 PM EST
    Howard Dean "Osama" ad was created by Robert Gibbs a former press secretary for John Kerry.

    Robert Gibbs now communications director for Barack Obama.

    There are no clean hands at this level.

    Parent

    I know (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:19:53 PM EST
    It is just juvenile and puerile and well ridiculous.

    Parent
    George Bush was the incumbent President (none / 0) (#70)
    by ineedalife on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:36:22 PM EST
    So the whole thing doesn't apply in 2004.

    This only works when the opposing candidate is not an incumbent President or VP. That drastically limits your options since almost always the other candidate is an incumbent or VP.

    Parent

    How (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by tek on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:49:11 PM EST
    about Barack Obama accusing Bill Clinton of racist remarks that the President never uttered?  Or Obama accusing Hillary Clinton of diminishing MLK when, in fact, that never occurred?  Or how about Ted Kennedy announcing that he endorsed Obama because Hillary overlooked JFK's role in civil rights legislation and then a review of Hillary's remarks proves that she, in fact, stated quite plainly that JFK crafted the legislation and LBJ pushed it through?

    Never seen a Democrat slam another Democrat to gain political advantage?  You must not read the news.

    Parent

    You have a (none / 0) (#103)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:50:34 PM EST
    quote of Obama accusing Clinton of racist remarks?  That would be neat to have.

    Parent
    No he uses his surrogate like JJ jr for that. (none / 0) (#110)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:53:11 PM EST


    Parent
    I have a copy of a four-page memo (none / 0) (#112)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:55:45 PM EST
    quote of Obama accusing Clinton of racist remarks?  That would be neat to have.

    LINK

    Parent

    Looks like you take it up (none / 0) (#120)
    by flyerhawk on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:01:58 PM EST
    was Candace Tolliver.

    Parent
    Has Tolliver been fired for (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:10:56 PM EST
    misrepresenting her client's thoughts about Clinton?  In Tolliver's field, you don't even finish out the day if you do so.

    Has she been fired?  Or "resigned"?

    Parent

    Obama and Clinton (none / 0) (#123)
    by 1jane on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:05:37 PM EST
    Both candidates have surrogates they can't always control. As to the racist thing it was the media that jumped all over Bill Clinton's comment comparing Barack Obama's win in the South to a Jesse Jackson win. Mr. Clinton more than strongly infered that Barack Obama was just an African American flash in the pan. Mr. Clinton continues this line with heavy hints that Barack Obama would make a great VP for Hillary, again marginializing Barack Obama into junior status, not because he's an African American this time, instead he infers Obama is ready to be the next president.

    Parent
    Only in the eyes of those that see (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:12:03 PM EST
    Obama as the AA's candidate does Bill Clinton remarks
    more than strongly infered that Barack Obama was just an African American flash in the pan
    in my eyes all he was saying was that even though Jesse Jackson won SC and other Primaries he still did not win the nomination.  Now if you and others always want to see evil conniving motives behind every Clinton remark or statement your welcome to your opinion that does not mean I have to respect it.

    Parent
    Check out Blackprof.com (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by esmense on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:04:35 PM EST
    He has some choice quotes from Gary Hart campaigning against Walter Mondale in 1984:

    "Senator Gary Hart said today that Walter F. Mondale, as Vice President, was part of an Administration that was "weak," "inept," "uncertain" and marked by "days of shame" in Iran...

    "Walter Mondale now promises an America that can and will stand up for its vital interests," the Colorado Senator told an ebullient crowd of hundreds of students at Texas A&M University here. "But Carter-Mondale actually gave us an America held hostage to the ayatollahs of the world."

    "In national security as in domestic policy," he said, "we must not leave the American people with a bleak choice in 1984 between two failed pasts - that of Ronald Reagan and that of the Carter-Mondale Administration."

    `Reagan's Favorite Opponent'

    "After reviewing the record of the Carter-Mondale Administration, I can understand why Walter Mondale is Ronald Reagan's favorite opponent," Mr. Hart added."

    Parent

    I guess it has to be said, so . . . (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:40:12 PM EST
    might it just possibly be that

    (a) as has been said before, Obama is pursuing a primary strategy but Clinton already has moved on (and probably began with) a GE strategy; and

    (b) if she is the Dem nominee, she knows (and has known and probably focus-grouped this for years) that there will be particular issues that will be most difficult for many voters to overcome; and

    (c) those issues may go against such ingrained attitudes in our country that they might not be overcome if she waits until the end of the convention -- Labor Day -- to start; and

    (d) one of those attitudes that could be particularly crucial in a time when we are in two wars is whether we will be safe with a woman CiC.

    Given that, she has to get started taking on McCain on this issue, saying that she can be the CiC as much as the GOP nominee.  And I do believe that on this very blog, there have been many calls for our candidates to start running against McCain.  And, frankly, Obama ought to be doing more of that, too -- but in this area, he has the weaker hand.  So of course, she is not supposed to note that and just let Dems lose the White House?

    We were not supposed to notice that this is one of Obama's weak areas?  If he doesn't deal with it soon, and if he is the nominee, we are doomed.  He ought to stop avoiding it and start talking about why he is ready (which is far different from saying "I'm ready" to the cheers of "Yes, you are!")

    Parent

    Isn't it interesting that neither HRC nor (none / 0) (#161)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:42:50 PM EST
    Obama has to explain why they failed to serve on active duty?  But then the Republicans run a Vietnam vet.  

    Parent
    Not really an issue for Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by ineedalife on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:24:51 PM EST
    given the roles for women in the military in her time. Obama, of course, will have to deal with it.

    I am sure by November we will all be convinced that not pursuing a Wall Street job is a much bigger sacrifice for your country than going to Vietnam. In fact we will be asking why McCain shirked his duty to his country by vacationing in Southeast Asia while all noble young men were running petition drives in the inner city. /snark

    Parent

    Now, that is just (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:46:49 PM EST
    too circular a spin.  And thus, I suspect we will see it on MSNBC within a week.  Chortles!

    Parent
    Not an issue for Obama either due to his (none / 0) (#213)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:54:01 PM EST
    age and the cessation of the draft.  

    Parent
    Oh, one of my favorite opening lines (5.00 / 3) (#165)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:45:47 PM EST
    from students.  "I've been using the Google all week to try to find out" just begs for the standard reply:  Go. To. The. Library.

    Shocking, but true: Most historical materials, primary and secondary, are not yet online.

    It is -- as my students say -- a bummer, Berube.  But nobody said it was gonna be easy.

    Parent

    Wollcott! Kudos! (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by magnetics on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:57:50 PM EST
    And kudos again! for the excellent purge and corrective.

    Melancholy babies. Priceless. (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:58:36 PM EST


    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:02:17 PM EST
    I didn't even have to click the link to identify the author of that angst-ridden message.  I don't believe Abraham agonized that much over Isaac.

    I'm vaguely reminded of all the "sensible liberals" who have no respect for those who opposed the war because they didn't dwell long enough on the seriousness of the issues.  Here's the thing, if you  help President McCain get elected, no one cares how tough a decision it was for you.  That's why there are no memoirs of Nader voters on the bestseller list.

    The "in sorrow" diary -- YIKES (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by litigatormom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:15:31 PM EST
    I never got past the first paragraph on DK, but I read the entire excerpt in Wolcott. Dear God, it was even worse than I'd thought. Losing friends, writing it on the sly while his wife was out of town?  That guy has a serious case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder -- or Grandiose Writer's Syndrome.

    Or both.

    Parent

    Please (5.00 / 10) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:20:59 PM EST
    do not insult the rest of us who have Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Grandiose Writer's Syndrome by comparing our posts to that one.

    Parent
    BTD (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by litigatormom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:32:10 PM EST
    you are too good a writer to suffer from Grandiose Writer's Syndrome. As for NPD, I haven't seen you writing about the lint in your navel, so you're probably okay.

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#87)
    by tek on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:43:41 PM EST


    Parent
    BTD, it is not possible (none / 0) (#189)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:14:52 PM EST
    to display Grandiose Syndrome when you're so cryptic.  I mean, grandiosity requires at least six sentences in a comment.  I think that's your all-time record.

    Parent
    I shall bestride this (none / 0) (#198)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:27:59 PM EST
    diary like a colossus!

    I think I just did grandiosity in eight words.

    Care to try for six?

    ;)

    Parent

    I can do it in four (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by Mary Mary on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:38:53 PM EST
    L'Blog, c'est moi

    Parent
    Good one! (none / 0) (#208)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:41:29 PM EST
    Though it does seem more pretentious than grandiose.

    Pretentious, moi?

    ;)

    Parent

    D**n, I may be setting a record (none / 0) (#211)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:48:36 PM EST
    for how many times I have to clean my computer screen on one thread.  

    Parent
    To tell the truth (5.00 / 6) (#57)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:28:03 PM EST
    I think Ken could write a diary like that about his difficult choice to have grapefruit for breakfast.

    Parent
    DK still? (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by lectric lady on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:32:34 PM EST
    Are you STILL visiting DK? I quit weeks ago, and, by God, I am doing pretty well. Like quitting cigarettes, it get easier with time.

    Parent
    I check the front page from time to time (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by litigatormom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:37:30 PM EST
    in the hopes that there will be a good diary on FISA, telecome immunity or the various DOJ scandals.

    I am almost always disappointed.

    Parent

    Got to give mcjoan credit for staying (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:49:56 PM EST
    on track on FISA and telecomm immunity.  Must be kind of lonely.

    Parent
    mcjoan, kagro, mb, page (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Turkana on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:52:48 PM EST
    and a few others. but two, in particular, have run the site into a ditch. i wish the better fpers would spin off their own site.

    Parent
    3 of the 4 mentioned did (none / 0) (#128)
    by Coldblue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:11:15 PM EST
    it was called 'The Next Hurrah'.

    Parent
    still exists (none / 0) (#139)
    by Turkana on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:22:34 PM EST
    but one of the two is also there...

    Parent
    Lately (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by badger on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:41:21 PM EST
    it looks like emptypockets just comes in to clean one or two days a week, but leaves some good stuff behind.

    Parent
    I know (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by Coldblue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:42:08 PM EST
    but the point is that they most likely are happy to get the readers that DKos provides, rather than venture out on their own exclusively.

    Gilliard, Soto, and to an extent Theoria have done so.

    Parent

    if the best lof them (5.00 / 3) (#168)
    by Turkana on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:47:36 PM EST
    ventured out with a scoop/soapblox type blog, i bet they'd become pretty big, pretty quickly.

    soto's place is one of the best, anywhere! i highly recommend everyone read it, every day- particularly week days!

    Parent

    I read The Left Coaster (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by Coldblue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:56:47 PM EST
    and you are doing a great job.

    My mo is that I don't comment very frequently.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by litigatormom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:55:20 PM EST
    mcjoan is good on that subject, but almost all the rest....

    Parent
    sounds like (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:41:49 PM EST
    Hillary isn't the only woman in his life who scares him...

    writing it on the sly while his wife was out of town?


    Parent
    Only because Kathy....she might take his (none / 0) (#105)
    by Teresa on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:51:22 PM EST
    writing and put "bad words" in it and not even feel SORROW about it.

    Parent
    There's a reason she's out of town. Most (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:57:24 PM EST
    patient woman.

    Parent
    how unseemly (none / 0) (#119)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:01:25 PM EST


    Parent
    But He Felt Perfectly Feel To Speak For Her (none / 0) (#187)
    by MO Blue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:11:29 PM EST
    while she was gone. How nice.

    Parent
    ::sigh:: (none / 0) (#195)
    by kredwyn on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:25:45 PM EST
    I don't know what to say...

    Parent
    Let's see the Obama supporters act shocked (5.00 / 7) (#30)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:15:33 PM EST
    over one issue but forget that they and their Hero's campaign have been unleashing almost every single Republican Talking Point at Clinton since the beginning of the campaign.  Yep they are the victims of this nasty Clinton tactics. Right

    If I ever needed any convincing that this politics of inclusion is attracting some unsavory characters to the campaign the last couple months have gone a long way in convincing me.  Let's blame the Clinton's for everything that went wrong in this Country, lets call them Liars, monsters, conniving, and willing to to the dirtiest of tricks to win.  If this is the Politics of hope please let me remain cynical and without hope.

    You're correct; this is at the very core (none / 0) (#190)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:18:42 PM EST
    of the Obama campaign, and much comes under it.

    And it is appalling how many people who used to claim to love the Clintons have embraced this.  I never knew until knew how many ingrates and/or idiots I knew.

    Parent

    Join the Club but then I ceased to (none / 0) (#200)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:30:14 PM EST
    be surprised many years ago.

    Parent
    Poor Baby (5.00 / 6) (#60)
    by john horse on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:28:56 PM EST
    re: "I'm so depressed. I cannot decide which would be worse, four more years of Republican presidency or four more years of Clinton drama."

    The type of person who doesn't think there is any difference between four years of Hillary and four more years of Bush/McCain is the type of person who believed there was no difference between George Bush and Al Gore.

    Poor baby.  Maybe you should vote for Ralph Nader.  (sarcasm alert) I mean whats the worst that can happen?  

    This is what is meant (5.00 / 9) (#71)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:36:41 PM EST
    when they say Obama is the candidate for people who don't really need a President.

    You don't see many people who are struggling with no health insurance, living paycheck to paycheck, saying "Gosh, I wonder if I'd be worse off with Republican policies or with Clinton drama."

    Parent

    Good One. (none / 0) (#92)
    by tek on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:45:06 PM EST


    Parent
    simply right on! (none / 0) (#141)
    by RalphB on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:25:41 PM EST


    Parent
    What's the worst that can happen? (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by litigatormom on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:44:04 PM EST
    John Horse, your comment reminded me of a classic SNL mock-commercial for "Bad Idea Jeans."

    I don't know how to embed videos here but here is the URL:

    http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=5579379

    Bad Idea Jeans

    Guy #1.....Kevin Nealon

    [ open on group of guys sitting on a bench on a basketball court, laughing ]

    Guy #1: Hey, we've got our apartment. We ripped up the floors, pipes, wiring, and having everything completely redone.

    Guy #2: You're renting, right?

    Guy #1: Yeah.

    [ image on screen: BAD IDEA ]

    Guy #3: Well, he's an ex free-base addict, and he's trying to turn around, and he needs a place to stay for a couple of months.

    [ image on screen: BAD IDEA ]

    Guy #1: [ tosses bottle to Guy #2 ] Head's up!

    Guy #4: Now that I have kids, I feel a lot better having a gun in the house.

    [ image on screen: BAD IDEA ]

    [ close-up of the jeans they're wearing, the label reads: BAD IDEA JEANS ]

    Guy #3: I thought about it, and even though it's over, I'm going to tell my wife about the afffair.

    [ image on screen: BAD IDEA ]

    [ more shots of BAD IDEA jeans ]

    Guy #5: I don't know the guy, but I've got two kidneys and he needs one, so I figured..

    [ image on screen: BAD IDEA ]

    Guy #2: Normally I wear protection, but then I thought, "When am I gonna make it back to Haiti?"

    [ image on screen: BAD IDEA ]

    Announcer: Bad Idea Jeans.

    [ shows a group of tough looking basketball players on the court ]

    Guy #1: Hey, you guys ready? Let's bet these guys! A hundred bucks.. make that two hundred! Two hundred bucks!

    [ fade to image on screen: BAD IDEA JEANS ]


    Parent

    Ha ha. (5.00 / 7) (#63)
    by Boston Boomer on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:30:40 PM EST
    Please excuse me if I'm sort of happy that Wolcott chose to use that particular kos diarist as an example.  I saw that post and didn't read beyond the first line, but I knew what it would be like, since I'm familiar with the writer's style and tone.

    I hope this comment is tactful enough.

    I will excuse you because it made my day. (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Teresa on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:38:49 PM EST
    It was appropriate and funny. I tried to read the original but first I gagged and then I decided to laugh, but I never dreamed Wolcott would give me such an assist.

    Parent
    Let us request to be excused (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:21:21 PM EST
    together to go out of the room and into the hall to compare notes.  Thank you for saying it first, and so nicely.

    Parent
    You make me feel (none / 0) (#194)
    by Boston Boomer on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:25:23 PM EST
    like I'm back in high school giggling in the girls' rest room.  Tee hee.


    Parent
    That column was funny. (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by halstoon on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:40:24 PM EST
    And whoever that Kossack is is a pathetic sort. No wonder we get called names. That guy is a loser.

    Aside: is it sexist to call him a sissy? I mean, I respect all the strong intellectual females I've encountered here, but that is just what we call a guy like that. I come from the South, though, so sexism may just be a natural part of my raising. I also personally agree with Eminem et. al. that calling a guy a fag is not homophobic. It's not about his sexual preference, so I don't see it as offensive to my gay friends, since they're gay and not fags.

    Anyway, Wolcott's point should be adopted by all fellow Obama suporters: this is politics. It is a bloodsport. If you don't wanna fight, you're just gonna end up tapping out or getting knocked the f*#k out. Obama's team is gonna do some shady s#*t; get used to the idea. If he doesn't win, we can't change a dang thang. We have to get inside to hold power; that is what Alinsky taught. Hope and Change and Progress come after the fall; not during the primary.

    To that end, Obama better knock Clinton out next time he has a chance. He blew it in TX. Do it again and he's likely to end up either VP or running for governor of IL. If you wanna be president, there will be blood. Make damn sure it's hers and not yours, Obama.

    Actually in my opinion if he doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:30:26 PM EST
    get the nomination I would hope he would concentrate in becoming the best damn Senator he can be.  Heaven knows he has the Intelligence and qualities to be one.

    Parent
    It would be homophobic ... (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:32:11 PM EST
    to call him a "sissy" it would be sexist him to call him "girly."


    Parent
    Interesting distinction.n/t (none / 0) (#154)
    by halstoon on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:38:05 PM EST


    Parent
    is it sexist to call him a sissy? (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by echinopsia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:35:29 PM EST
    Yes, it is.

    Parent
    Sexist or homophobic? (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by halstoon on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:37:37 PM EST
    Robot said homophobic.

    Thanks for replying, btw.


    Parent

    Call him a sissy (none / 0) (#203)
    by echinopsia on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:34:39 PM EST
    and you're calling him a woman, as if that were a bad thing to be.

    No reason it can't be both sexist and homophobic.

    Parent

    Actually in my experience calling someone (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:46:00 PM EST
    a sissy does not always translates to implying they are Homosexuals as when kids do it because some boy cries so that I guess would be an example of it being sexist you know implying that only girls cry.  So I must agree it is probably more of a sexist remark.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#136)
    by phat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:18:26 PM EST
    You pretty much confirmed a lot in this little comment.

    Heh.

    phat

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#142)
    by halstoon on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:26:08 PM EST
    to you, too.

    phatty

    Parent

    These (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by tek on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:42:26 PM EST
    remarks remind me of the comments from our Obama supporting friend yesterday.  These people sound as off the wall and brainwashed to me as the Bushies.   I scour the news everyday and yet this person comes up with statements that puzzle me.  I have no idea where this stuff comes from.  Maybe it's e-mails or mailers the Obama campaign is sending out.

    I still can't believe the Obama people think the media and the DNC have a bias toward Hillary!  Of course, I guess if a person read HuffPo and nothing else you would come away thinking Hillary truly is a monster.  

    LOL, and we could even recommend it if (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Teresa on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:44:45 PM EST
    we're so inclined. You two made me choke I laughed so hard. OK, I'll be nice now BTD.

    Wolcott makes my day (5.00 / 5) (#126)
    by Munibond on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:07:35 PM EST
    That dailykos diary was one of the most simultaneously sanctimonious and arrogant things I have ever read. To call Clinton "morally unfit" to serve because you don't like her campaign tactics shows some serious lack of perspective.

    And as a teacher, might I note (none / 0) (#197)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:27:43 PM EST
    that I rather shuddered at that phrase and more in conjunction with his saying that some of his students read his posts and that he would use this one, as he apparently has used others, as material for classroom discussion?

    I don't recall what he teaches or to what grade level, but a few thoughts from the field:  There never, never is enough time to even fit in enough readings from Shakespeare and a few other writers of some note and significance.  Wouldn't it be better to have students read some Shakespeare?  There's always a Shakespeare play, after all, that fits for discussion of just about anything in politics.  Or life.

    And, second, there are professional standards about having teachers assign their own works for students to read.  It certainly is done, but it usually is . . . oh, a peer-reviewed book or article of some note and about something other than the teacher's angst.  

    Parent

    Don't the people (5.00 / 4) (#129)
    by rooge04 on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:11:38 PM EST
    being mocked understand how utterly ridiculous they've become? The poster that said he threw the Clinton bios off the shelf, in particular....what is wrong there? I mean, you thought previously they were good people with good life stories that you admire? What made you change your mind? Seriously? Obama has shown you the light and evil way that the Clintons have always been? I mean, it something out of this world!! People that defended Bill when that ridiculous ABC movie was shown are the same ones acting like he is Evil Incarnate and his wife is the Devil's Soul. It's beyond ridiculous and I can't believe it. I truly can't. More specifically because the REASON is that she's telling the country that she's more fit to be President than Obama. That is her great sin. Making a case for herself. And after ALL the incidents of Obama campaigning just as heavily and "negatively" as her and letting the media attack her viciously for months...it's simply not acknowledged. Obama is Good. HRC and anyone that dares stand up for her, support her or are married to her are fair game.  Simply because they don't think Obama should be the nominee.  

    I mean, seriously? Some people need to get a grip.

    its kind of funny how blinded they are (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by tree on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:35:48 PM EST
    The reader you mentioned went over the edge because the Clinton campaign accused the O's of Ken Starr tactics.  I'm sure that he had no such problem when the O's accused Bill of using Lee Atwater tactics. Probably thought it was a damn good point.

      And then there are those who think that accusing your opponents of using Ken Starr tactics is WAY worse than calling your opponent a monster. (No doubt, they think, because the monster slur is true, but Ken Starr? Now that is an attack that will live in infamy!)

    Personally I think many of these people are suffering from selective amnesia and overactive outrage glands.

    Parent

    Obama Supporter Outrage Watch! (5.00 / 6) (#133)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:12:53 PM EST
    Obama supporters are always OUTRAGED!

    It really reminds me of Republicans who are the kings of manufactured outrage.

    And there's only one reason Republicans and Obama supporters do this.  

    They're afraid to argue issues.

    It can be an effective strategy.  But that's all it is.  A strategy.  An act.  

    They aren't really outraged about any of this.  

    wow (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by RalphB on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:41:19 PM EST
    I knew they reminded me of some group.  You're right it's the Republican outraged daily talking point group, the 101st Fighting Keyboardists.


    Parent
    "the 101st Fighting keyboardists" (none / 0) (#192)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:22:17 PM EST
    Heh.

    I like that.

    Parent

    As Digby says, (none / 0) (#201)
    by Boston Boomer on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:32:11 PM EST
    They are constantly running to the fainting couch.  They are just like the Republicans.  And these same people used to laugh at the Republicans for doing it.  And they wonder why "some say" they are a cult (not me, of course).


    Parent
    Mail In Vote (none / 0) (#12)
    by Saul on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:07:31 PM EST
    is not a good idea according to a state Florida, Rep that came out with Britt Hume on Fox.  She said that it would be experimental and Florida has no experience with such a method, and many people have changing address's and the chances that a lot of people would not get the ballot would be very high plus many of those that had already voted would not vote again.  She said the original primary was a record turn out and you would never get that same amount of people to participate again using an experimental method like the mail in vote.  She said she to use the count of the original primary and that they were thinking of voting options for many who did not vote.  What exactly those options would be was not discussed in detail

    My brother is registered Independent (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:15:09 PM EST
    in FL, didn't vote first time around and says he won't be able to on a re-vote either.  

    Parent
    Can't Primaries in Fl are Closed (none / 0) (#32)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:16:37 PM EST


    Parent
    and no provision to change registration (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:20:46 PM EST
    from Independent to Dem. b/4 the primary?

    Parent
    Deadline (none / 0) (#169)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:47:42 PM EST
    I thought they had until March 23 or something....

    Parent
    I'd tell him but I'm pretty sure he's (none / 0) (#171)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:49:29 PM EST
    "anyone but Hillary."

    Parent
    Unless some special provision is enacted for (none / 0) (#175)
    by Florida Resident on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:53:21 PM EST
    this event.  Fl electoral vote says any party affiliation change or registration must occur prior to 29 days before the electoral event.

    Parent
    I totally agree. (none / 0) (#104)
    by tek on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:51:12 PM EST
    james Carville offered to pay for a real primary.  What's wrong with that?  Of course, at this point, anything Obama agrees to I'll find suspect.

    I really don't see why Florida should have a re-do.  All the Dem candidates had their names on the ballot.  Obama was the first one to campaign there.

    I think if Obama gets the nomination by disenfranchising MI and FL, he'll regret it.

    Parent

    Yes, I am concerned that so many (none / 0) (#205)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:38:05 PM EST
    seem here to think that this is a good electoral methodology.  See the book Deliver the Vote, for one study of election fraud, suppression, etc., and on just this tactic.  That is has worked out in Oregon, at least so we think and so far, does not in the least reassure me that it will work in Florida.

    For one thing -- well, it's Florida.  It may have changed a lot since 2000, but it did not then prove to be a state ready for the onslaught of subterfuge and not-so-subtle, frankly goshawful fraud tactics.

    Also, even Oregon had a lot more time to get ready for this.  Even my state, considered one of the best in electoral integrity, needs a lot of time to get ready for any election -- as none are really at the state level but overseen there; elections are conducted by thousands of municipalities in Florida.  And none of them is ready for this, for the budgeting to be done for the hiring to be done for the printing and addressing and mailing and receiving and securing and counting to be done of ballots not even designed (can we say "butterfly ballot"?).

    And I know that I don't even know an nth of all that could go wrong with this.  But say, has anyone here ever paid a bill and put it in the U.S. Mail and later found out that it didn't get there on time or at all?  What, do I live in the only city in the entire United States that has occasionally problematic postal service?


    Parent

    Right On (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:08:07 PM EST
    A timely wake up call.

    On the CiC issue (none / 0) (#45)
    by ajain on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:21:42 PM EST
    Mark Halperin says that there is a possible foreign policy trip coming up for Obama.

    Link

    What do you guys think? Will it help him to have a photo with Iraqis and/or American soldiers or make look like he is trying too hard?

    I think the purpose of the trip is to divertn (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:24:19 PM EST
    attention from the Rezko trial.  

    Parent
    That's a good point (none / 0) (#64)
    by ajain on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:31:33 PM EST


    Parent
    possible backfire (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:52:11 PM EST
    #1 issue to majority of Americans is the economy right now and Obama wants to fly around the world holding photo ops with foreigners to beef up his international creds?

    Clinton ad: Obama is in Afghanistan today.  Though he was the leader of the oversight committee on Afghanistan, this is his first time visiting there.  Day Two: Obama is in Pakistan today.  Perhaps he can explain to the Pakistanis why he plans to bomb their country if he has what he believes is actionable intelligence?

    Question: Who is paying for Obama to go on a crash vacation around the world (along with the press corps, of course) while Clinton is back home taking care of business (I'm sure she'll submit a bill a week while he's gone)

    Plus, he needs those stadium rallies.  Or is Obama admitting he doesn't stand a chance in a real election (that is to say, one that is not a caucus)

    Parent

    Just Keep Him Out Of A Tank n/t (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by MO Blue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:25:14 PM EST


    Parent
    Superman (none / 0) (#134)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:16:19 PM EST
    He already has a picture of himself in front of Superman.

    Parent
    HRC seems to remember all those (none / 0) (#137)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:21:12 PM EST
    silly photo ops and avoid them.  For example, I never saw her in a Stetson.  She's supporting NASA but no crawling-through-the tunnel photo op either.  Keep up the good work.Now if she keeps her head on her shoulders through hunting season, . . .

    Parent
    This would be ... (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:28:56 PM EST
    incredibly stupid.

    It would be a tacit admission that the attacks on him are true.  Plus, it would add nothing to his defense.

    "He gave a speech, now I hear he's taking a trip."

    And there are numerous other pitfalls.  This would be a colossal blunder.

    Very Dukakis.

    Parent

    so... (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:37:17 PM EST
    I take it you are hoping he goes, too?

    Parent
    sounds fine to me. (none / 0) (#160)
    by RalphB on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:42:12 PM EST


    Parent
    I thought he had already planned a victory lap (none / 0) (#95)
    by ineedalife on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:45:40 PM EST
    for after March 4. But Hillary left a big turd in the punch bowl for that party.

    If he goes thru with it he is going to lose valuable campaigning time at home.

    Parent

    Equal (none / 0) (#131)
    by 1jane on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:12:12 PM EST
    Barack Obama's visits won't look like he's trying too hard, any more than Hillary's visits do. McCain is doing the same thing.

    Parent
    Well.. (none / 0) (#140)
    by ajain on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:22:45 PM EST
    When you go in the middle of your campaign, where you are being slapped left and right on your foreign policy cred, I think it may look a little silly. Of course the die hard types may not agree with me, and it is entirely possible that they are able to spin the media on it being a great idea. I dont know.

    Parent
    Reminder to Obama (none / 0) (#148)
    by 1jane on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:32:24 PM EST
    Barack Obama better make sure he takes Sheryl Crow and Sinbad along with him like Clinton did when she went to Kosovo. He'd better not forget to have tea with those Irish ladis either. After all Clinton claimed those events gave her foreign policy credentials.

    Parent
    uh... (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Kathy on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 07:44:39 PM EST
    can you tell me who Obama has had tea with that makes him so much more qualified?

    Parent
    Obama doesn't need to have tea (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by tree on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:12:48 PM EST
    He transcends tea.

    Parent
    If we hadn't been gifted with (none / 0) (#209)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:42:46 PM EST
    some posters here, we might have had to invent them.  Just so I could see some Kathysnark to make my day.:-)

    Parent
    aravia on feminism (none / 0) (#84)
    by Miss Devore on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:42:54 PM EST
    hilarious.

    Please (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Coldblue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:46:23 PM EST
    lettuce live in peas

    Parent
    No, Miss D is welcome (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:52:26 PM EST
    She can have a chuckle at my expense. No harm, no foul.

    Parent
    Of course she should (none / 0) (#114)
    by Coldblue on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 06:56:30 PM EST
    it was a tribute to her writing style. She was always one of the best in the old stomping grounds.

    Parent
    waves to coldbluesteele (none / 0) (#217)
    by Miss Devore on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:10:02 PM EST
    thanks for the CD.

    Parent
    Dueling bumper stickers (none / 0) (#181)
    by Redstar on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:02:35 PM EST
    Open thread, eh?

    I passed a car today in New Orleans (where I do recovery work) that sported both Clinton AND Obama bumper stickers.  I like it!  

    (Clinton was on top - yeah!)

    fyi (none / 0) (#182)
    by cdo on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:06:58 PM EST
    tucker carlson out of a job it seems. huffpost has the story.

    Oh no! (none / 0) (#204)
    by Steve M on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:36:38 PM EST
    Both his viewers will be heartbroken.

    Parent
    For more hysteria, check out (none / 0) (#215)
    by MarkL on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 08:58:56 PM EST
    Clinton's going to steal the nomination and lick her fingers afterwards!!!

    I didn't even bother to read, but I'm sure the comments are as temperate as is the norm at DK.

    Heh (none / 0) (#216)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:08:26 PM EST
    How dare she play by those famous rules!!

    Parent
    "Longwinded, preeny, pious dirge." (none / 0) (#218)
    by oldpro on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:15:51 PM EST
    Says it all.

    Few diaries are as revealing of the neediness for attention and approval as this one by Ken.  The sad thing is, it probably won't even slow him down.  He will likely not pause for reflection, alter his outlook, edit his endless diaries, give more attention to his students and less to himself...

    I wish he would for he is not entirely without skill or worthy values.  He just can't stop relating every single goddam thing in the world to himself.

    Painful to watch.

    Wolcott . . . Heh | 213 comments (213 topical)