And the longer the news media refuses to hold Obama's feet to the fire, the more confrontational things will get.

I can't speak for Michigan, but I know down here in Florida there's organization among the 55+ lady Democrats for a mass voter registration exodus to Independent if the Florida vote isn't counted by June 3rd, and a closing of  pocketbooks to the DNC.

Alternatively, if FL/MI are treated the same as SC/NH etc, then you get:

--Delegates (AP) with FL/MI estimate from demconwatch
Clinton 1427,  Obama 1528 (101 diff)

and with super delegates that means the current situation would be 68 difference:
--Delegates (AP), and FL/MI estimate and super deleg (AP)
Clinton 1677, Obama 1745  (68 diff)

She said she had heard a lot of that and apologized and said she'd tell Dean (which I asked her to do -I said I had supported him in 2003 and 2004 and that disenfranchising Florida and Michigan was the stupidest thing I ever heard.)

Sigh.  All of these are strong contenders for the prize.  But I'm going with the smugness, because you could have all of the above, and if there was ALSO an element of humility or even modesty, the whole feel would be different.

Any dem who would have fought that bill would have had their heads removed in this state after wen endured 18,000 missing votes in Sarasota in 2006 in Katrine Harris's county..

but we were the very first state to Ban the DRE voting machines for the 2008 election and the first state in the nation to mandate VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS..for the 2008 election..the only state to do so in the nation!!!!!!!!!...but call us silly..

but this is the very bill Dean punished us for!!

and Yes the FDP tried to get that amendment removed for that bill to no avail!

Dean is a liar , he planned this he planned it because as soon as this bill was signed he began pushing the FDP into a caucus..and his push kept it up and in Oct or Nov he offered the FDP $800,000.oo + to do a state wide caucus..so no one will tell me his plan to steal elections by Caucus was not planned!

specially in m state of PA.

The democrats have found a way to snatch defeat from the overwhelming chance they had for victory.

And, the sad thing for me is that at this point I could care less.

Yet the one Dem president in my voting lifetime, the Dem president who protected choice and the SCt, is being demonized as a racist and a failure.

I'm really tired of the emotional and poltical blackmail.  If you really don't want McCain elected, insist that the DNC and its minions stop weighting the scales for Obama.  That's the real problem, that, if anything, will be the cause of McCain getting elected.

Even if you think I'm a low information voter, I don't need to do any additional reading to know who McCain is or what a McCain presidency means.

I also know the republic will not collapse if McCain is elected (although 4 more years of Republicans in the White House will make collapse more probable). If I thought it would, I'd have moved to Canada already.

Obama and co weren't on the MI ballot because they removed their own names, which certainly wasn't the MI voters' fault.  MI turnout was depressed, probably because half the candidates chose not to be on the ballot. But the 600,000 people who turned out to vote on that cold, miserable day deserve to be heard, just as they voted. Obama and Edwards can fight it out for the uncommitted delegates.

The 1.7 million FL turnout was the largest Dem primary ever there--because FL has more registered Republicans, they had a larger turnout, but the Dem turnout was ~43%, which is right in line with 2008 turnout in other states.

"Plus, the Mich. vote has been declared invalid by the courts."

In Florida, the democrats in the legislature had one choice, vote against the January primary AND against a paper trail or vote for both. They tried to separate the issues but the republican majority prevented that option.

In any case I'm suprised people are suprised. This is actually not new information to anyone who's been paying attention. It was quite clear when the revotes failed/got blocked that this is what was going to happen.

It remains the case that the supers are free to include FL and MI in their independant calulations.

What a silly argument to bring here.  I'm sure there are an awful lot of lazy or apathetic dems who stayed home instead of voting for Gore or Kerry who are now shouting about the injustice of Bush.  Probably a good many who are now claiming to have been opposed to the war from the beginning.  Or, you know, to have remained consistent about a really nice speech.

To echo cpinva, so what?  Do we thrash and wail about the past, or do we decide what to do now?  Because the fact is that now, in the present, we are ticking off two very important states--and many other individuals in the process.  We are alienating donors and making our party look as if the Keystone Kops were a well-oiled machine.  It matters none what was done by whom, or who is contesting what.  We are talking about making sure votes count...or not, as the case may be.

I live in Florida - WE ARE LIVID.  I've written and telephoned the DNC and never got a response.  That organization will never get another dime from me.  And if Obama is the party's nominee, I openly promise here and now that I will not vote for him.  Since he doen't want my voted counted in the primary season, he certainly won't get it later.

Does rejecting the FL and MI delegations help the Democratic party?

The issue is a) can you vote? b) does your vote count in the outcome? and c) are all eligible voters treated the same in every state?

States or state parties can set eligibility rules, just as states do in Federal elections. The issue of open vs. closed primary is an issue of eligibility.

The issue of superdelegates is one of the party being able to set its own rules. Parties get to set the rules for their nominating process. What they don't get to do is apply those rules unequally in the various states. The parties can allow the superdelegates to count for 99% of the delegate votes (or even 100%) if they choose to - as long as they apply the rules equally to every state.

Denying voters a chance to have their vote count is one way of disenfranchising voters. It's the method the SC chose in Bush v. Gore, and the method the DNC is currently using to disenfranchise MI and FL voters.

Feel free to respond, but don't expect a reply, as I've had this discussion in detail at least a half a dozen times now, and it's highly unlikely you'll bring up something original.

Nope first my votes were stolen by Republicans and the DRE voting machines with no capapbility of an audit..now it is stolen by Howard Dean and Obama and Donna Brazile..and Pelosi, and Kerry  and Kennedy..

if you can tell i am angry..that is only the least of it.

I will be voting for Mickey Mouse in November..they didn't want my vote for the primary , they will not get it in November, and I will Vote Mickey Mouse 08, so the dem party gets the message loud and clear!

As a 2004 elected  delegate for the state of Florida I stand with the voters of my state and the voices of our elected representatives- our delegates!