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Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat

For those not thoroughly fascinated with the ins and outs of Puerto Rico politics and the June 1 primary, here is an Open Thread.

< Puerto Rico, Obama and Clinton | AP-Ipsos Poll: Tight Races In Dem Contest And GE >
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    Mixed feelings (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:11:44 PM EST
    His last non-answer (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:15:18 PM EST
    at the bottom of the last page just makes me cringe.

    He's incapable of apologizing.

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:26:08 PM EST
    it's a total non-answer, and it doesn't calm my fears about his tendency to "hear all sides" and take no stands. The McClurkin thing wasn't in itself a deal breaker for me, but it made me quite angry and I would really like to have seen him show some better perspective on the whole thing than a sort of shrug and "people can disagree" thing.

    But then, I didn't really like the "I haven't been doing community specific interviews because I'm talking to a broader audience" thing, either. Sure, you have to reach the broad audience with these issues some, but there are also specific community concerns that tend to be ignored if you don't very specifically address them. I could criticize other bits, too -- a few statements stand out to me -- but I'll leave it.

    Dunno. In some ways, it's a troubling interview for me. OTOH, at least he finally did one, and though I find both candidates far less than perfect on queer issues, they both IMO do represent some movement in the right direction, which is my personal litmus test for now.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:29:10 PM EST
    The McClurkin thing wasn't in itself a deal breaker for me
    It was for me--at least in the primary.

    He has had multiple opportunities to make it right, but he just keeps digging in.

    Parent

    Totally understood (none / 0) (#43)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:38:02 PM EST
    I was willing to wait and see, but the more he digs in on it, the less willing to cut him a break on it I become.

    I know plenty of folks who walked away from him then, and I understand it quite well.

    My primary vote is done, so at this point I'm personally looking toward the general. That may help clarify my litmus test thing -- I will only vote for candidates in general elections who take us at least a bit in the right direction. I don't need them to be perfect, but I do need them to represent some real progress. In this case, I shouldn't have too much trouble on that front with either potential nominee, though I really do find Clinton better versed on queer issues (or at least more willing to talk about them more specifically).

    Parent

    Donnie McClurkin (none / 0) (#96)
    by kayla on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:50:50 PM EST
    to me is more in denial of his sexuality than homophobic.  He's just plain pathetic.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:32:02 PM EST
    "Some of my best friends are gay, even the ones whose names I can't remember."

    I also love the line about how the gay proff was comfortable in his own skin and didn't "proselytize."  Yeah, don't you hate it when they rub it in your face?  Ew!

    This takes the cake, though:

    Had the race stopped cold in the snows of New Hampshire, gays and lesbians would have been left with one interview of record for each Democratic candidate in total.

    Which is BULLSH*T.  Clinton called the HRC to her senate office and strategized with them on how to defeat the gay marriage ban and how to make sure it never came back.  She was the first first lady to march in a gay pride parade.  She has been a staunch supporter of gay rights from the get-go.  Some of y'all might not remember what it was like to be gay in 1992, but it wasn't all Will and Grace.  It was death threats and hate out in the open.  

    It just gobsmacks me that anyone in the gay community can get excited about taking these scraps from Obama.  The disloyalty is gut wrenching to me.

    Parent

    The message that I get from him (none / 0) (#36)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:35:15 PM EST
    is "I can take you or leave you." He makes me feel like I'm trying to sell a car or something. It's really the perfect antidote to Hillary's (admittedly quite generic) "you are not invisible to me" slogan.

    Parent
    I really don't find that "generic" (none / 0) (#53)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:46:00 PM EST
    and I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but the Advocate really ticked me off making it sound like Clinton was just as bad as Obama about giving interviews to the gay press.  The Advocate is not the only gay "news" mag she has spoken with:

    Clinton has done interviews with Dallas Voice, The Washington Blade, The Philadelphia Gay News, and two gay newspapers in Ohio. Last week, The Philadelphia Gay News left a blank space next to the newspaper's interview with Clinton to draw attention to Obama's snub.

    As a senator, Clinton worked very hard to open a gay and lesbian only high school in NY city.  She was appalled by the statistic--which has held since I was in high school--showing glbt teens have a significantly higher rate of suicide.  She used a lot of political clout and ticked off a lot of upstate conservatives with this, but she helped get it done.

    She's not just there for interviews when she's running for election.  She knows the issues, she knows what is important and she knows how to get things done.  How many US senators do you think summoned the HRC during the gay marriage amendment bullsh*t to try to figure out what to do?

    And don't even get me started on O's macho "Don't-worry-folks-I'm-a-real-man!" chuckling about being tested for HIV during one of the debates.  People in the Community who let him get away with this crap, when we've got one of the staunchest defenders of gay rights running against them...should not talk to me about this right now because I can really, really cuss really well.

    Parent

    You missed this paragraph (none / 0) (#124)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:18:59 PM EST
    that prefaced the interview:

    Unlike his rival Hillary Clinton, who's given interviews to Logo and several local papers since appearing on the cover of The Advocate last fall, the Illinois senator has only talked once, to address the Donnie McClurkin controversy.

    So I didn't get that impression. Of course I have also read some of the Clinton interviews in the gay media. I think most gay men who read the Advocate (which is subscription and national) would also be reading their local gay newspaper (which are free). I love my BAR (Bay Area Reporter) and read several more online.

    Parent

    Agreed. (5.00 / 5) (#31)
    by dk on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:32:21 PM EST
    He actually defends the use of McClurkin in his campaign.  Essentially, he said he is willing to pander in any way, even in ways that reject the human dignity of certain groups of people, to win votes.  I guess his defenders call that inclusiveness.  I call that a failure of leadership.

    Parent
    Oh No Mr. Bill (none / 0) (#25)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:27:50 PM EST
    Not another one of those......

    Parent
    HRC:71 Member LGBT Steering Committee (none / 0) (#62)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:55:20 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton Announces 71 Member LGBT Pennsylvania Steering Committee

    http://tinyurl.com/54zw8t

    Parent

    typical white woman (none / 0) (#65)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:00:37 PM EST
    I'd like to add that the "plans" Obama outlined in the Advocate interview are amazingly similar if not exactly the same plans Clinton outlined to Ellen Degeneres on her show last year (Sept 07).

    This is a clip.  Clinton did a funny that cracked me up.  Ellen says "some people don't know this, but I'm gay."  And Clinton says, "WHAT?!"

    LINK

    Parent

    Well, if you want to know what O (none / 0) (#71)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:11:23 PM EST
    will be doing next, just follow along here ;)

    http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/

    Thanks for the link. I remember that show :)

    Parent

    I was afraid (none / 0) (#119)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:12:58 PM EST
    to read the Advocate Interview knowing that it would raise my blood pressure. I had read the Philaelphia Gay News editorial which was scathing and the coverage of it on various gay blogs (especially towleroad.com) and what amazes me that some defended Obama for not speaking to the gay media (he's bringing us together by not pandering to us). Yes gay men can drink the kool-aid. Again it is the younger set though my friend and SF City Supervisor Bevan Dufty is for Obama though he would vote for Clinton, he just thinks Obama is more electible. However that view is hard to accept since on my block here in the Castro we are pretty all Clintonites who will not vote top of the ticket if Obama is the nominee. We will be writing in Clinton, voting for Nader and voting for McCain. When gay men in SF, albeit the wealthier set, are voting for McCain that surely spells trouble. This is why I think those that argue that Obama is more electible are mistaken. It is not reflective on this block of States Street and Castro in San Francisco. We all voted for Kerry and now 75% of us will not vote for Obama.

    Reading the interview I had been correct that indeed my blood pressure would rise. The condescending attitude that I don't like to pander to special interests groups so therefore I don't speak to their media. Hispanics are a special interest group? Personally I don't think of gay rights as a special interest group either, it's about human rights. Either you see that or you don't. The ENDA dialgoue was interesting. Basically his approach is like the credit card interest rate cap: Best deal that I can get. And that's call leadership? I beg to differ.

    Still nothing irked me in the Advocate interview more than his yet again insistence that all sides should be talking:

    I tell you what, my campaign is premised on trying to reach as many constituencies as possible, and to go into as many places as possible and sometimes that creates discomfort or turbulence. This goes back to your first question. If you're segmenting your base into neat categories and constituency groups and you never try to bring them together and you just speak to them individually -- so I keep the African-Americans neatly over here and the church folks neatly over there and the LGBT community neatly over there -- then these kinds of issues don't arise.

    The flip side of it is, you never create the opportunity for people to have a conversation and to lift some of these issues up and to talk about them and to struggle with them and our campaign is built around the idea that we should all be talking.

    Really? Because that's not what Obama did in Beaumont, Texas. There in front of an African-American audicence he started to talk LGBT issues but the audience went cold on him so he switched back to Jesus and the ausdience roared. The Jesus crowd is never going to accept gay equality. I accept that fact. And so I feel it is within my rights to wholly ignore them. I will not sit down and discuss my rights with someone who thinks that I am scum of the Earth. Sorry, no go.

    I will not vote for Barack Obama and I will make sure none of my gay friends do. This is personal. My rights are not negotiable.

    And his refusal to apologize for Donnie McClurkin is just beyond belief.

    Charles Lemos
    San Francisco, CA

    Parent

    Give it up.... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:11:52 PM EST
    for New York's own Majora Carter, for whipping out the Tibetan flag while carrying the torch in San Fran.  The Chinese para-military torch guards were all over her arse, handed her to domestic mercenaries who threw her off the route.

    I know we have no right to complain since our mercenaries operate in other sovereign nations, but I'm not keen on Chinese mercenaries putting their greasy paws on an American citizen on American soil for excercising their rights.  Not cool, not cool at all.  That's not how we do...or at least that's not how we used to do.

    Randi Rhodes off Air America (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Fredster on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:12:51 PM EST
    Buh-bye...

    And good riddance (none / 0) (#17)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:18:38 PM EST
    You don't publically call presidential candidates f-ing wh-words -- ever. I don't care if they deserve it or not (Clinton doesn't deserve it).

    There is something about presidential politics that commands that level of respect (at least).

    Parent

    I must be familar.... (1.00 / 1) (#23)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:27:21 PM EST
    with a different brand of presidential politics, because the presidential politics I've seen most of my adult life doesn't commmand too much respect.  As far as I'm concerned the 3 stooges are all f*ckin' wh*res.

    Another one bites the dust...Thank you pc police for making the airwaves that much blander:)

    Parent

    She lives by the jock (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:31:54 PM EST
    she dies by the jock.  Heh, it's the nature of the beast.  Best thing is I don't listen to those people anymore.  

    Parent
    I was thinking about Randi (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:35:01 PM EST
    at the gym this morning.  Okay, I was eating a donut, but same difference:

    She was speaking to a packed audience at a democratic fundraiser.  Why didn't people walk out?  I've walked out of movies I didn't agree with.  What the heck were those people thinking sitting in those seats and listening to her tear down (1) a woman (2) a fellow democrat (3) a sitting US senator who has fault valiantly for democratic ideals?

    Disgusting.

    Parent

    "Fought valiantly".... (1.00 / 1) (#52)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:45:05 PM EST
    that's a laugher:)  On the campaign trail she fights like Smokin' Joe Frazier....in the senate, not so much.

    Maybe the audience agreed with Randi?  Or disagreed but aren't that put-off by common American vernacular?

    Parent

    she voted against (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:49:17 PM EST
    censuring MoveOn for that stupid ad.  She is running her campaign based on being a democrat supporting democratic ideals and getting (you guessed it) the majority of democratic voters.

    You've made it clear, though, that nothing penetrates, so I'll leave you to your own thoughts on this.

    Parent

    'common.' (none / 0) (#55)
    by oldpro on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:47:28 PM EST
    good word choice.

    Parent
    Answer: OBAMA fundraiser (none / 0) (#118)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:12:31 PM EST
    Randi Rhodes IMHO (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:33:37 PM EST
    had a responsibility to be neutral and support both Presidential candidates. It is not acceptable for someone who is supposed to be a progressive talk show host and represent a progressive station to constantly and ludicrously hate on a possible Democratic nominee for President.

    Unless the whole mission of their station is a joke, she stepped way over the line. Her behavior was disgraceful.

    Parent

    I think you hit the nail on the head (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:37:09 PM EST
    The mission of their station is a joke.  Didn't think it was before.  Do, now.  Don't care if it dies.  Bad "progressive" radio isn't better than NO progressive radio.

    Parent
    IMHO also (none / 0) (#47)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:40:38 PM EST
    Way over the line.  I've posted this before.  The thought of calling a sitting U.S. senator that name literally turns my stomach, just as much as it would if she had called Obama an equally bad word.  Dems deserve better from fellow Dems.

    Parent
    Sometimes (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by oldpro on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:40:52 PM EST
    it's not the "pc police."

    Sometimes it's just decent manners...you know...the kind your mom taught you (or should have).  Bottom line:  if you wouldn't say it in your grandmother's living room, don't say it in mine.  The airwaves come into mine.

    Is a little discretion in language too much to ask from adults?  You know...the locker room isn't the living room, etc.

    OK...I'm old and old-fashioned.  I prefer  civilized people.

    Parent

    You shoulda heard my grandma's mouth..... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:52:00 PM EST
    when she was alive:)  

    Besides, the airwaves have these things called stations that you can change...there isn't just one.  Surely there is prim and proper programming to be found.

    Call me new-fashioned, but I don't mind colorful language...sometimes it is quite appropriate.

    Give me a sincere gutter-mouth over an insincere "civilized" talkin' bullsh*tter anyday.

    Parent

    Hmm... (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:55:49 PM EST
    I seem to recall some cries of outrage when Cheney told Leahy to go f himself.  Lots of screaming about respecting a US senator, etc.

    Parent
    Agree to a point..... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:25:03 PM EST
    ...I wouldn't have minded if she had called Clinton a fu@#ing senator, but its the whore part I didn't like. Call me a feminist, I don't mind.

    Parent
    Ever see "Beerfest"?..... (none / 0) (#83)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:31:50 PM EST
    "We are all whores in our own way, Mr. Finkelstein."

    Parent
    You really don't understand (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:40:01 PM EST
    societal norms, okay, and professional norms, okay -- but you do know that broadcast media, unlike your grandma or your type of movies -- have to hold onto their licenses from the FCC?  And that it is a verrry Bushie FCC?  Air America ought to have acted sooner to save itself, as it has now . . . at least from the FCC, but not from me and many others.

    Because above all, it's up to advertisers, and they're buying us from the media.

    Parent

    Do you really not get (none / 0) (#92)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:43:48 PM EST
    how offensive the word "whore" is to a woman?

    And are you seriously quoting "Beerfest?"

    WOW.

    Parent

    I honestly don't..... (none / 0) (#103)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:59:34 PM EST
    Whore is a word, and I believe there is a time and place for it.  Each person must decide for themselves the time and place for them to use it.  It's part of my vocabulary...I'm whoring myself right now as a matter of fact.  I don't use it as a slur.

    Beerfest is a funny movie, and there is truth in that line.  We all whore ourselves at sometime in our life one way or another...dontcha think?

    Parent

    If you don't understand (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:09:24 PM EST
    then you never will.

    Yes, it is a female thing. Many men understand why it is offensive. You don't.

    It's okay. We just don't need to talk about it any more.

    Parent

    Most Of Us Get It (none / 0) (#154)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:40:33 PM EST
    I don't have to be a female to understand how degrading words as such can be.  There will be knuckel-draggers who seem clueless.  They don't represent the majority of men.

    At least I hope they don't.


    Parent

    dude, you're blowing my mind (none / 0) (#130)
    by angie on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:28:03 PM EST
    "whore" is not just a word (although I thought "words matter").  Referring to a woman who does not in fact actually exchange sex for money a "whore" is not only sexist, demeaning and insulting to all women, it is slander.  The fact that YOU seem not to know and/or are not willing to accept this is irrelevant. "It is what it is" as the young kids like to say.  

    Parent
    No I didn't see that. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:02:15 PM EST
    Since I'm an old fart, my favorite beer movie is Strange Brew.

    Parent
    How Is Fu**ing Whore Sincere? (none / 0) (#87)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:38:06 PM EST
    I assume..... (none / 0) (#94)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:44:47 PM EST
    that's how she really feels.

    Isn't it good to know how she really feels?  Would you rather she lie?

    I'd like to know how Obama and Clinton really feel about things...but both lack the honesty and integrity of Randi Rhodes.  They are too afraid to offend a potential voter to tell us how they really think and feel and plan to lead.

    Parent

    Rhodes lost her job. (none / 0) (#138)
    by Fabian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:46:46 PM EST
    For using "colorful language".

    Clinton and Obama probably want to hold on the jobs they have and not to risk the one they are competing for.

    Maybe you can get away with "colorful language" in your job, but most of us are expected to live up to our employers' standards.

    Parent

    More than "Colorful Language" (none / 0) (#140)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:49:01 PM EST
    It rises to the level of a sexual smear.

    That makes it worse than "colorful" IMO>

    Parent

    And lookie here (none / 0) (#108)
    by Fredster on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:02:32 PM EST
    http://noquarterusa.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/barackrhodes.jpg

    From NoQuarter's website.  Green whatever is blaming
    poor ole Larry for taking down Randi.

    Parent

    Calling a woman an effing wh*re (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by litigatormom on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:44:49 PM EST
    is vile and offensive, even when the person doing it is a woman. If you want to say she's corrupt  or that she'll say anything to get elected, that's perfectly alright, even though I would strenuously disagree. What Rhodes said was way beyond being un-PC.

    Would you be worrying about blandness if Rhodes had called Obama an effing n****r?

    Parent

    Well, after all, Obama said the same thing (none / 0) (#85)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:34:58 PM EST
    in Spanish in a Nevada ad -- scripted by someone on his staff who didn't understand that terms have denotations and connotations.  And the connotations of the phrase ("no tiene vergüenza," as I recall) come down to just what Rhodes said, so I'm told by Latinas.  

    It shocked Nevadan Latinos/as, so I read -- but of course, I didn't see that slip discussed in mainstream media there or anywhere.

    Parent

    You are right. I remember that ad. I heard it (none / 0) (#95)
    by FLVoter on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:50:32 PM EST
    online. As someone that speaks Spanish, I was very upset by the language.  People that do not speak Spanish seem to think that the translation is "without shame"  but that word has much more meaning to it than a literal translation.

    Parent
    So, what's the deeper meaning? (none / 0) (#109)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:03:00 PM EST
    in colombia, (none / 0) (#123)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:18:00 PM EST
    it means that a person has no morals at all, and is somewhat open about it.

    As a matter of fact, an acquaintance once described someone thusly-- "el no conoce la verguenza.'

    An incredibly strong description and insult.

    Parent

    "he's not even familiar with morals?"

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#33)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:34:46 PM EST
    you really think it's too much to expect that a radio announcer wouldn't call a prez candidate a f-ing wh-word?

    You don't think that that level of respect is required?

    Hmmm, wonder what you'd say if Obama were called some reasonable facsimile of that.

    Parent

    well... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:36:42 PM EST
    in a fit of pique, I called O an "arrogant f*ckball" once, but Oculus tattled on me.  Does that count?

    Parent
    Unless I'm unaware (none / 0) (#42)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:37:51 PM EST
    you aren't a public figure, working as a rep of a radio station ;-).

    Clue me in if I'm wrong.

    Parent

    Not the same (none / 0) (#50)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:42:10 PM EST
    That is not a racist or sexist slur, and you are not a public figure

    Parent
    Imus was fired (none / 0) (#41)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:37:44 PM EST
    for calling female basketball players whores. Funny how it's okay for Randi to call HRC and Ferraro whores...I guess it was only the racial part of the remarks that offended some people.

    I was offended by the whole thing, personally...

    Parent

    Well she was fired (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by ineedalife on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:52:55 PM EST
    so it is not okay. And it required much less of a concerted outrage to get Randi dumped. So maybe we are making progress.

    What happened to Randi? I haven't listened to her show for several weeks, but then she was making a big deal out of her neutrality and how important to not lose sight of criticizing Republicans. A caller went on about how impressive Obama was in person and Randi said that Clinton also had that quality one-on-one. She went from that to "effing whore" in a few short weeks?

    Parent

    Was she fired? (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:23:15 PM EST
    I thought she was suspended and then quit. Can't keep these stories straight.

    Parent
    You are right, I was wrong (none / 0) (#84)
    by ineedalife on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:32:25 PM EST
    I used fired too casually.

    Parent
    No -- sorry to say it, but Imus was fired (none / 0) (#86)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:37:33 PM EST
    for his racism, not his sexism.  And those fine young women and their folks knew the difference and were incensed, as it was the sexism that seemed -- from the team's press conference, which I watched very closely -- to upset them more.  As it would anyone's daughters.  That Imus is on the air again is absolutely appalling, but nothing surprises me anymore about how low our media go.

    Parent
    I'm surprised this article stating (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by RickTaylor on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:14:42 PM EST
    that specific interrogation techniques we're discussed in detail and approved at the highest levels of government hasn't gotten more attention. I suppose I shouldn't be shocked but I am. Where do we go from here?

    Depressing, (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by eleanora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:34:52 PM EST
    horrifying, and sad. Funny how Ashcroft approved the techniques, but only got worried over the meetings to discuss them.

    "According to a top official, Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting: "Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly."

    If you've got a problem even talking about torture, what about, you know, not authorizing it?

    Parent

    Exile in America (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:10:00 PM EST
    Rice, Powell, Rumsfield, Ashcroft  and all the others are likely to be prosecuted in other countries for their war crimes.

    In a word, the interrogators and their superiors were granted immunity from prosecution. Some of the lawyers who contributed to this legislation were immunizing themselves. The hitch, and it is a big one, is that the immunity is good only within the borders of the United States.

    [snip]

    Those responsible for the interrogation of Detainee 063 face a real risk of investigation if they set foot outside the United States. Article 4 of the torture convention criminalizes "complicity" or "participation" in torture, and the same principle governs violations of Common Article 3.

    It would be wrong to consider the prospect of legal jeopardy unlikely.

    [snip]

    The judge and prosecutor were particularly struck by the immunity from prosecution provided by the Military Commissions Act. "That is very stupid," said the prosecutor, explaining that it would make it much easier for investigators outside the United States to argue that possible war crimes would never be addressed by the justice system in the home country--one of the trip wires enabling foreign courts to intervene. For some of those involved in the Guantánamo decisions, prudence may well dictate a more cautious approach to international travel. And for some the future may hold a tap on the shoulder.

    Philippe Sands long article but well worth a read.

    via War & Piece

    Parent

    Yup (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:34:09 PM EST
    that awaits. The fate of Pinochet does hover above their heads. Last year Rumsfeld was whisked out of France at a moment's notice because they were afraid that a judge was going to issue a bench warrant against him.

    I once heard that George W. Bush of his own volition has only been abroad twice both times to Mexico on beer runs while in National Guard. Might be an urban myth though.

    I would expect a judge most likely in Belgium or Spain were extra-territorality laws are on the books to issue arrest warrants. I suspect that they will get invited to speak a conference in a third country and then unsuspectingly be detained and charged. I assume they'll fight extradiction so the extradiction laws will have to be strong. I doubt that any trials in absentia will be held.

    I know Philippe Sands personally and his book on the day the world changed, the Arrest of Pinochet and other essays on international law are great reads.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#159)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:02:44 PM EST
    I did not know his work until this piece, and will get the book. The article was really good. Kudos to you for the company you keep.

    Parent
    Holy crap (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Steve M on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:25:42 PM EST
    I was a little confused when I read this at the NY Times site:

    Chelsea Clinton, who now voluntarily references the Monica Lewinsky scandal at campaign events, "has gone from a behind-the-scenes supporter of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton to her mother's most effective surrogate," writes Anne E. Kornblut of The Washington Post in a front-page story.

    That sounded weird to me.  Why would Chelsea be voluntarily bringing that subject up all of a sudden?

    Bob Somerby helpfully supplies the truth:

    And note the tricks these life-forms use. Why did Kornblut say that Clinton had brought up "the Monica Lewinsky scandal?" Duh! Because Clinton hadn't mentioned Lewinsky herself! Go ahead: Watch in horrified stupefaction as a leering cyborg types on:

    KORNBLUT (continuing directly): Speaking to a packed crowd of college students and recounting her mother's history of working with Republicans, the youngest Clinton talked for a minute about Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.), who as a House member during the impeachment hearings against President Bill Clinton was "one of the people who prosecuted my father in the 1990s," she said. Not "someone you would think would be an ally for someone with the last name Clinton, the 28-year-old added wryly.

    Nor someone her audience would expect her to mention...

    You see? Clinton hadn't mentioned Lewinsky at all! But Kornblut wanted to mention Monica--wanted to say her name very much. And so, like that a slick decision! Lindsey Graham was close enough! Kornblut said Clinton had mentioned the "Lewinsky scandal," not Miss Lewinsky herself.

    I agree with Bob.  These people are deeply sick.  And how many people, like the NY Times, will go around now claiming that Chelsea brings up the Lewinsky scandal "voluntarily"?

    that brave woman (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:30:57 PM EST
    Chelsea, I mean.  Kornblut's punishment is that I, like I am sure many people, always read her name without the "l" in it.

    One day, hopefully before I die, Chelsea Clinton is going to write a book about her life.  I am going to be first in line to read it.  I have always said that the fact that she isn't in a looney bin somewhere proves what good parents she has.

    Parent

    Clinton 48, McCain 45 NEW from AP (5.00 / 0) (#82)
    by Salt on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:31:25 PM EST
    From AP-Ipsos poll:
    Obama 46, Clinton 43 (unchanged from February).
    Head-to-head matchups:
    Obama 45, McCain 45
    Clinton 48, McCain 45

    Of course they have not changed..

    Colombian Realities and an FTA (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:58:51 PM EST
    I am a Colombian by birth and by choice. While I have three passports now, I generally tell people when I meet them that I am a Colombian. Though I've lived in the United States on and off since coming to college in 1981 and I enjoy my life in San Francisco and generally think admirably of the US, there are times of immense frustration that I have with Americans. This past week was one such period.

    Now I have just returned from three weeks in Africa so I missed bits and pieces here and there but the attacks on Colombia and on President Uribe on various blogs took me by surprise. Thankfully no such vile was found on TalkLeft. Reading John Amato's comments and Sam Stein's comments on the Huffington Post however left me not just perturbed but rather anxious. That Colombia suffers from an image problem I won't deny hence hiring a PR firm like Burton-Marstellar is a bit of a necessity. But Colombia is not nor has it ever been a country like Chile under Pinochet or any other dictatorship. Military rule in Colombia has been the exception not the norm. It hasn't even happened in my lifetime. The last military govt was 1953-1958 and then before that 1838-1840.  That covers that.
    Colombia is not a right-wing dictatorship. For most of our history, Colombia has been a model two party (Liberals and Conservatives) state with regular, free and competitive elections. True the parties had machines and operate on patronage but that's also true of the US. Chicago comes to mind.

    Our troubles are essentially tied to the drug trade. Eliminate the drug trade (I personally favour legalisation) and many of Colombia's problems are ameliorated. Even though the FARC is now it seems in a death spiral thanks to Uribe's carrot and stick approach, someone else will rise to take control of the cocaine trade because there is too much money in it. So while FARC now seems defeated, we will have a new foe to fight.

    Personally I am pretty tired of fighting this battle. Unlike most of you, I have casualities to report. I have suffered two kidnapping attempts, the last in 1994 when I worked for the govt of Cesar Gaviria in the Foreign Ministry. My aunt Sophie was killed by a Pablo Escobar bomb intended for a judge. He missed the judge but killed 18 others including my aunt Sophie, my grandmother's sister. Then there are so many other friends. Benjamin Barney, 88, at the time of his death. Shot in the back of the head on his ranch by the FARC. My neighbors from childhood Mauricio Garces and his father Eduardo Garces. Kidnapped by the FARC in 1994 and never heard or seen since.

    The FARC's resurgence in Colombia is tied to their control of the cocaine trade after the demise of Pablo Escobar and the rival Cali cartel in the mid-1990s. Between 1994 and 2004, we were a country held hostage. No more. Thanks to Uribe.

    The trade unionists problem is not one many Colombians find to be a problem. But then you need to understand the history of Colombian sindicalism. There are 3 major labour groups in Colombia: one is tied to the Catholic Church, another (the largest) is independent and the last is tied to the Colombia Communist Party, the political front for the FARC. Most of the murders (some were actually battles with police or the Army though most were in fact extra-judicial murders) have effected the last union, the CUT. Despite there being three labour unions in Colombia, union membership has always been low by international standards. Only 4.6% of Colombian workers are unionized (Mexico by comparison is 16.2% and the US 13%).

    Next the murders which total 2,245 according to Amnesty International are now basically a historical event. Obama got himself in trouble in his speech in Philadelphia when he stated that over 200 trade unionists were being killed yearly in Colombia. That last happened in 2001 and Uribe can hardly be held accountable for that since at the time he didn't hold any political office. Andres Pastrana Arango was President then. In the last year, 26 trade unionists have been killed. I am not sure how many of these are extra-judicial killings. They are a problem. We would rather arrest them but it is hard to forgive when one's own family and friends have too been murdered.

    The image problem that CUT trade unionists  have in Colombia is that some of them are nothing more than members of the FARC. In 2004, two CUT union leaders blew their arms off while constructing a pipe bomb. In 2001, another died again in a self-caused mistep explosion in Yumbo, Valle. And then there is the 1998 bombing of the Cano Limon oleoduct where CUT union leaders were captured after planting explosives.  Hard for us to have much sympathy.

    Uribe might as well be god in Colombia. No other President even comes close, not even Cesar Gaviria, my former boss or Carlos Lleras Restrepo or even Carlos Lleras Camargo, legendary Presidents from the 1960s who are responsible for Colombia's slow but steady pace of economic growth. Colombia holds the world record for longest uninterrupted economic growth at over 45 years. But Uribe is special, we wonder who can replace him in 2010. 70% approval ratings, 90% after the raid in Ecuador that killed Raul Reyes and one other member of the FARC secretariat, a first. Within two weeks, another of the seven man Secretariat was dead, killed by his own men, his hand cut off as a macabre prize to prove to authorities that he was dead. Macabre to you but for me real joy. I cried when I heard the news. I am an athiest but I went to Mass to give praise after Reyes was dead.    

    The day after Reyes was killed in February I went to a Colombian restaurant here in San Francisco. It was full. We danced, we ate, we sang the National Anthem and we thanked Uribe. He has saved the country. He has made Colombia liveable. We are tired of war. The FARC is not an option and we want them to either surrender and be re-absorbed into civil society. That's Uribe's carrot. The stick is that if you don't surrender, we will take the war to you. That's why the leadership has had to take refuge in Venezuela or Ecuador. Chavez is now clearly supporting international terrorism and the US should take note.

    The irony of the FTA with Colombia is that in terms of our exports to the US, it matters little. Our exports already receive preferential tariff treatment under the Andean Trade Promotion Argeement This would only lock them in without having to get Congressional approval every two years. The benefits are largely for the US. It opens up Colombia to American agriculture, industrial products and consumer services duty free. No smallstep for us. It's likely to impact our grain manufacture and yet we in Colombia are willingly to run the risk. Largely in gratitude because we also think that Plan Colombia, the aid that you provided has made a difference in our battle against the FARC.

    If the FARC matters to you, then by all means don't approve the FTA. As a Colombian, I am really curious to see how Americans react to this FTA. I myself leave Saturday for Colombia to attend my aunt Lola's 80th birthday party. She is quite the social activist and community organizer. She is holding her 80th birthday party not at home or on our farm but in Cali's Aguablanca district, a slum with the women she teaches fashion design and sewing. Her choice and I think it is grand.


    Wow. (none / 0) (#169)
    by shoephone on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:44:04 PM EST
    A long time ago I might have thought your story was too incredible to be true. But I do not a doubt a word of what you have said here. And I am very sorry for your losses.

    I have been trying to find out for many years if Alvaro Uribe has a brother, or other family member, named Nicolas. Do you know? I went to school w/ a Nicolas Uribe and, without going into too much detail, think he may have been a close family member.

    I would appreciate any knowledge you have about this.

    Parent

    I know two Nicolas Uribes (none / 0) (#172)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:44:33 PM EST
    One is a Congressman from Bogota; the other is a painter from Medellin. Neither are related to Alvaro Uribe. President Uribe had one brother, Jaime Alberto, now deceased. It would help if you know the second name. Examples: Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Alvaro Uribe Velez. So Nicolas Uribe ???

    Or try this: Nicolas Uribe's Congressional Page
    http://www.nicolas-uribe.com/portal/index.php

    Uribe is a pretty common surname.

    I think any Colombian family, rich or poor, has long suffered. We are tired of war and thus Uribe has given us a way out. While the war was waxed and waned, it has effectively been on-going since April 9, 1948. That's just too long. If you read Spanish, from today's El Tiempo, 30 more guerrillas have turned themselves in. They're done.

    http://www.eltiempo.com/justicia/2008-04-10/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR-4089107.html

    Parent

    Thanks for your reply. (none / 0) (#174)
    by shoephone on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:45:27 AM EST
    I wish I could remember his second name!

    We went to music school together in Boston 1990  (he was a guitarist) and members of his family were kidnapped. He was one of my few friends at school and I remember him as very intelligent and a good person. He would be in his 40's now.

    I looked at the congressman's home page and it does look like him, without the long hair and goatee my friend was sporting back then! But I don't know read Spanish and it seems like this one is too young. Maybe my friend became the painter from Medellin?

    Parent

    Atrios sez (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:00:32 PM EST
    that Casey's endorsement matters more than Rendell's. Respectfully: bollocks. (am I over the language edge?)

    Heh (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:01:20 PM EST
    Did he really say that?

    Parent
    Not really, (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:04:56 PM EST
    but close
    I don't really know how much endorsements matter. Casey's probably helps Obama. Rendell tends to sound like he's endorsing everyone.


    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:10:50 PM EST
    That was a bit of a throwaway line but seems wrong to me. But heck, he is from PA and I am not.

    Parent
    Your analysis of PA politics (none / 0) (#11)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:13:02 PM EST
    has been better than his.

    There is only one part of the state in play, in my opinion: the Philly suburbs. That's Rendell country.

    Parent

    This is what he said: (none / 0) (#4)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:07:21 PM EST
    Endorsements

    I don't really know how much endorsements matter. Casey's probably helps Obama. Rendell tends to sound like he's endorsing everyone. Not clear what Mayor Nutter's does for Clinton, though it doesn't hurt (Rendell and Nutter are both in ads for Clinton).

    Um, I think Rendell's been pretty clear in his HRC lurve. ;-)

    Parent

    The Casey endorsement (none / 0) (#28)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:31:31 PM EST
    matters to ME for the GE!  It helps cement the notion that Obama isn't so pro-choice that an anti-choice Democrat wouldn't endorsement.

    And it helps instill in me that I have no confidence that Obama would protect Roe-v-Wade.  His election has been all about what's best for Obama, not the Democrats.  His re-election policy would likely also be about what's best for Obama, not the country.  If that means throwing Roe-v-Wade under the bus, so be it.

    Parent

    I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous (none / 0) (#38)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:36:26 PM EST
    they both have anti-choice endorsements. John Murtha is for Hillary, for example.

    Parent
    Murtha is not known as "anti-choice" (none / 0) (#46)
    by dianem on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:40:35 PM EST
    He is best known for his war opposition. Outside of his district, I'm betting that few people know what his position on abortion is.

    Parent
    Oh really, he isn't (none / 0) (#49)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:41:55 PM EST
    I think anyone whose vote he'll have some impact on does (i.e., people actually IN PENNSYLVANIA).

    Parent
    Not a fair comparison (none / 0) (#73)
    by angie on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:14:13 PM EST
    Murtha's views on the choice issue don't matter because we can be confident of Hillary's views -- that is, we know she is pro-choice based on her record.  However, with Obama we cannot be confident of his views because of his ability to be of two minds on just about everything, and his lack of record on the issue.

    Parent
    Casey's a NO choice protector of fertilized eggs (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:01:25 PM EST
    If some pol wants to say s/he's personally anti abortion but pro-choice, fine by me as long as s/he's upholding the constitution as befits the office.

    Casey's a hard right no-choice fanatic who uses his office to further his personal belief that a fertilized egg has more standing than the fertility pod surrounding it.

    No, my position on reproductive rights and full constitutional protection isn't "equally" fanatical, nor a special interest, nor a pesky obstacle to Dem ambitions, nor an abstract political choice.

    Personhood matters. I want to know why anyone who's walking on (fertilized) eggshells to protect Casey's "choice" in this doesn't ask where he got the right or standing to disenfranchise half the population of their constitutional protections.

    (This is a deal-breaker: no personhood, no justice, no support.)

    Parent

    I am with you, sister (none / 0) (#113)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:08:41 PM EST
    I want to know why anyone who's walking on (fertilized) eggshells to protect Casey's "choice" in this doesn't ask where he got the right or standing to disenfranchise half the population

    But it's not just half the population--it's MORE than half.

    And I don't trust Obama one whit on this, either.  He is the king of compromise, and I can easily see him choosing an anti-choice judge or two in order to mollify the right.  He wants to bring disparate views into the party, right?  Well, there's a big one right there!

    Parent

    Exactly right! Where are our allies on this? (none / 0) (#145)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:02:09 PM EST
    But it's not just half the population--it's MORE than half.

    Absolutely. I keep asking why rad right fearing hand-wringing Dems and progressives walk away so quickly from this by pretending it's some icky women's aisle of global human rights. (I restricted it to half the population here because of Casey's posture on fertilized eggs.)

    The Chicken Wing of the Dems has to stand up more affirmatively against no-choice deadbeats who use religiosity and their "choice" for open ended persecution of people they simply don't want to see with full franchise.

    It's not complicated to fight. Ask the bigots where they got standing to be in someone else's private med appointment, legal counsel or temple (fuggedabout the nerve). Make them bring it to court, bring it to the floor and FRACKEN fight it. Ask Casey where he'll get the menstrual police to carry out his vision.

    Several GOP hopefuls explicitly promised criminalization, even advocating jail time, for people who sought reproduction related services including abortion. WTF???

    Look: arrest us and charge us or leave us the f-ck alone.

    If it isn't clear to people who like Brand Obama, the hard right are the "post partisan" pals he's planning to Unite with. Makes what's left of choice to me easier. If he's the candidate, Dems could kiss my @$$ goodbye and it'll be the last sight they'll have of me -- pleasant one, that is.

    (And court schmort, Obama won't liberalize SCOTUS any more than the Blue Dog infested congress has.)

    Parent

    Nah, they won't arrest (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:51:45 PM EST
    the poor, stupid women who don't know what to do with their own bodies.  They will arrest the doctors for performing the procedures.  Look at what is happening in Portugal if you want to know what fresh hell that will be.

    The problem isn't outright eradication of reproductive laws, it is the slow tightening of the noose around certain freedoms attached to the right to abortion.  For instance, legislation that forces a woman to have a "time out" or a period of reflection before she can get an abortion (because most women are just going to the store and decide, "what the heck, I'll get an abortion!" and take a left into the clinic).  It is laws forcing women to go to government funded, right wing religious "pregnancy counseling" centers, who have tax payer funded ultrasounds they give women for free (nevermind that they show them the wrong films to scare them).  And, my favorite of all: only allowing a woman to have an abortion if she's been raped or is the victim of incest.  Yeah, because if she enjoyed the sex, then she should be denied the choice.

    People suck.

    Parent

    Murtha's position is not different from (none / 0) (#142)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:57:59 PM EST
    Casey's. You are being hypocritical, frankly.

    Parent
    Murtha has other eggs to fry (none / 0) (#153)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:39:35 PM EST
    He gets a zero on reproductive rights.

    Casey Jr. expanded his the "fight" to use his office to promote the view that life begins at conception

    They both suck. One sucks harder.

    Parent

    No on the (none / 0) (#88)
    by facta non verba on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:38:19 PM EST
    Vicar of Dibley though it does qualify as swearing.

    Parent
    ya know (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:54:02 PM EST
    one of the things that made me a very early Hillary supporter was a story a friend of mine told me.  She used to be a speechwriter for a high-level appointee, so she saw a lot of stuff on the inside.  Anyway, apparently, Hillary was known to call Bill sometimes when she wasn't too thrilled with a statement he'd made or a policy he'd endorsed and demand, "What the f*ck are you talking about?"

    Gotta love her!

    Parent

    What's with CA delegates? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Josey on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:08:29 PM EST
    supposedly Hillary and Obama "purging" activists, replacing with party loyalists.
    Boston Globe 4/9 - http://tinyurl.com/5as2f4

    Obama supporters are outraged, haven't seen anything from Hillaries.


    Looks like Obama (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:15:53 PM EST
    has done a lot more than HRC.

    Most of the cutting was done by Obama. His campaign dropped about 900 potential delegates, compared to about 50 excluded on Clinton's side.

    WOW!

    Parent

    Good googlie mooglie! (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:20:45 PM EST
    Nine HUNDRED?  That shows a lot of fear that their folks will switch sides.  I wonder what guidelines they used to determine the exclusions.  I also wonder what the kicked delegates are thinking.  That's got to hurt, you know?  I mean, to get kicked to the curb like that?   Not a way to win folks over.

    And, besides, he's Mr Unifier and he can't keep his own delegates unified?

    Oh, if only we had an active media.

    Parent

    Obama (none / 0) (#20)
    by BlacknBlue on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:22:14 PM EST
    To my knowledge hasn't had any delegates "switch". Clinton has.

    Parent
    Incorrect (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:43:34 PM EST
    You are confusing pledged delegates with superdelegates.  Obama is purging pledge delegates selected earlier in the process for ones he believes are more loyal.

    Some Clinton superdelegates have switched.  I do not believe ANY pledged delegates from either side have.  (And, indeed, the need to have "loyal" delegates would seem to undermine the argument of Obama supporters that it is insane to even suggest that pledged delegates can switch.)

    Parent

    How? (none / 0) (#137)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:43:04 PM EST
    How can you purge a pleadged delegate?  

    Parent
    From what i can tell (none / 0) (#166)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:25:11 PM EST
    It doesn't look like the actual "going to the national convention" pledged delegates have been picked yet.  These folks are candidates for those slots in upcoming county conventions.  Obama is essentially taking them off the ballot to eliminate even the possibility of them getting the ticket to Denver.

    I could be wrong, but that's how I read the article.

    Parent

    Of course not. (none / 0) (#21)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:23:27 PM EST
    He's "purged" all the ones that would have.

    I keed, I keed! ;-)

    Parent

    Wow is right (none / 0) (#44)
    by litigatormom on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:38:26 PM EST
    Given how much Obama touts his pledged delegate lead, that's a stunning number.

    Is Obama concerned that there might be more than one ballot, or is he actually concerned that his pledged delegates won't even stay with him on the first ballot?

    Parent

    He is obviously concerned about desertions. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:47:11 PM EST
    I don't think this is a great sign of confidence for Obama.

    Nor was the constant screeching for HRC to get out before she trounces him in the upcoming primaries.

    I think he and his campaign are very aware of how precarious his position as the front-runner is right now, even if the media doesn't cover it.


    Parent

    Yikes (none / 0) (#64)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    that is a huge purge. I was ignoring this story when it appeared this morning at the Sac Bee (I skim, most mornings, as it's my first read after pouring a cup of coffee), but I had no idea it was that many.

    That's going to seriously anger a lot of folks.

    Parent

    I read a report from one of the purged (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:18:40 PM EST
    this morning on some blog or other -- and yeh, he's ticked, he doesn't know what he did in some past life to be considered unreliable and a latent (gasp!) Clinton backer.

    Frankly, though, from what we've read about before in Texas caucuses, where at the second stage it was discovered that some Obama delegates had not registered to vote . . . I wonder whether some of this purging was just to clean up the rolls themselves before more problems emerged.  What was kept pretty quiet in Texas might make more news in California.

    Parent

    Possible (none / 0) (#79)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:29:38 PM EST
    but they purged the guy who is president of the California Young Democrats, for example. I don't think he was going to be a problem in terms of showing up.

    I dunno. Again, I'm going to have to do some digging on this one to make any sense of it. Just seems like a really strange choice to me -- I mean, everybody expected some cuts based on a few different factors, but that's just a huge number.

    Parent

    Yikes. As a former Young Dem leader (none / 0) (#97)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:52:59 PM EST
    now I'm outraged.  Isn't the Obama campaign supposed to be all about party-building and bringing in youth and all that?  So because Young Dem state leaders are already involved, diss them for newbies or what?

    Parent
    This blog has some interesting comments (none / 0) (#101)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:57:07 PM EST
    I find this update by the author (none / 0) (#111)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:04:59 PM EST
    kinda sweet.

    Who am I kidding, I'll still give Obama money and my time. And perhaps I was a bit out of line when I said otherwise. However, as Lucas points out, it's a pretty top-down move from a campaign that is supposed to be bottom-up. I can forgive mistakes and move on, but I still think the campaign needs to send out a message to its grassroots supporters that it values and respects them.

    All he wants is a little love from his hero...

    Parent

    I certainly (none / 0) (#114)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:09:20 PM EST
    won't pick on Brian, to be clear, who is just trying to make sense of this himself IMO. He works his buttocks off at calitics and in the real world.

    Parent
    I really can't (none / 0) (#110)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:04:13 PM EST
    make heads nor tails of it at the moment, skimming over the lists.

    Parent
    It must really hurt (none / 0) (#128)
    by alsace on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:25:31 PM EST
    for him to learn that he's not one of "the ones we've been waiting for" in the new post-partisan, changing world of fuzzy notions.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#156)
    by Josey on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:49:36 PM EST
    Oh --- you are BAD! :)


    Parent
    That's because he had so many more candidates. (none / 0) (#66)
    by tbetz on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:02:08 PM EST
    Obama cut nearly as many candidates as Clinton had in total -- he had about twice as many -- for approximately the same number of delegate seats as Clinton.

    The conventions would have been unwieldy -- he had to reduce the slate if only for purely practical reasons.

    Parent

    He had about twice as many (none / 0) (#69)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:08:12 PM EST
    but he cut about 18 times as many.

    That's seriously a heck of a lot of cutting. The Sac Bee article makes it look like some very strange choices were made, too.

    Parent

    Of course he did. (none / 0) (#112)
    by tbetz on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:06:14 PM EST
    They have approximately the same number of delegate seates to fill, and will now have approximately the same number of candidates to compete for them.

    You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Parent

    Maybe it's a molehill (none / 0) (#125)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:19:17 PM EST
    and maybe not, but simply culling more than half of your potential delegates has the potential to really anger those who are cut, and I'll be really interested to see whether they release any info on the criteria they used. Because I seriously can't make any sense of it.

    Parent
    maybe they were "Dems for a day"? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Josey on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    just to boost his delegate count - not actualy expected to support him at the Convention or general.


    Parent
    No way (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by spit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:10:27 PM EST
    some of the folks cut are names I know. They're not dems for a day, and there's really no justification in terms of candidate loyalty, either, at least for those particular folks.

    I'm sure there's some reasoning behind it, but it looks like a very poor move, IMO, and it's really surprising to me. I'll have to dig a little more.

    Parent

    'Dems for a Day' is so perfect (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:20:53 PM EST
    My apolitical (but in many ways more radical / liberal) spouse has been enjoying that one: "At least it's a day more than what most of them have turned in lately."

    I hate it when the last thing I can throw against that is really good soy-almond milk latte.

    Dang good Soy Almond Milk Latte
    -------------------------------
    Soy-Almond Milk: soak about 2 oz. firm tofu, a dozen almonds and a couple of drops of almond essence with warm distilled water in a mini-blender. TIP: use a ball of plain marzipan if you don't have the almond essence (or like the stuff). A soaked Amaretto cookie's good too.

    Buzz well and strain. Sweeten to your liking.

    Froth as you would cow juice and enjoy with a strong double shot of espresso. I like mine so strong it walks into my cup on its own.

    I don't know if there's a God but there sure is a Heaven.

    Parent

    They're just making sure... (none / 0) (#9)
    by sweetthings on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:12:44 PM EST
    That all pledged delegates drink deep of the respective kool-aid.

    I doubt very much that there's a 'purge' going on, though. The overwhelming majority of delegates will already be total loyalists for their candidate. They're just trying to eliminate the odd outlier that might pop up here and there...in a race this close, every delegate counts.

    Parent

    What were the voter registration rules (none / 0) (#58)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:50:32 PM EST
    for CA? It sounds like he purged a high percentage of his delegates.

    Parent
    as far as I know... (none / 0) (#162)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:49:03 PM EST
    ...the only rule is that you have to be a registered Dem in California, and reside in the CD for which you're running as a delegate.

    As far as I can tell from reading the news stories about the delegate cuts, delegate candidates submitted paperwork to the state party, then the lists were turned over to each campaign for vetting.

    The state party caucuses are to be held this Sunday at 2 p.m., according to cadems.org, grouped by candidate in each CD. Each person running as a delegate will give a 60-second pitch, then attendees vote for that CD's delegates to the DNC.

    Some of the blogs talking about the Obama cuts are saying he kept the big-money donors on the list while cutting low-dollar contributors, and it's likely both campaigns are cutting out decline-to-state voters, who were eligible to vote in California's Dem primary but who aren't eligible to represent the party at the convention.

    Parent

    also... (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:54:21 PM EST
    By paring the list so vehemently, Obama's delegate slates in a lot of CDs (like Harman's district, CD-36) looks pretty firmly in place, meaning that once his campaign gutted the list of applicants, just about everyone left is a sure delegate to the convention.

    This contravenes the spirit of the delegate caucuses, in which one's community members and fellow activists choose the delegates, rather than the official campaign.

    Parent

    Thanks so much! (none / 0) (#168)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:22:02 PM EST
    I have gotten so confused this year, nice break out :)

    I have to wonder if there isn't going to be a bit of backlash on this. If he really did hang on to more large donors and stifled the process, along with his fund raisers last week . . . kinda kicks the 'spirit' of his campaign.

    Gotta give Clinton credit for not bending under pressure in that direction.

    Parent

    Seniority in a Joint Ticket (none / 0) (#14)
    by stevenb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:15:52 PM EST
    I've noticed how often BTD mentions the belief in Obama becoming the democratic nominee in 2008.  However, it looks pretty good that Clinton will win the popular vote, even without FL and MI, and that adds a twist to the issue  (i.e., Gore/Bush 2000).

    So, seeing that she has pledged to go all the way to the convention, there will have to be a choice between Obama and Clinton by the DNC, or a vote
    for a joint ticket.

    If the unity option is on the floor, who gets to be Prez and who Veep?  Well, I'm a supporter of seniority (in general), and that seems like a fair
    characteristic to throw into the consideration between Obama and Clinton. Clinton is definitely his seniority in many, many respects in my opinion.

    I'm interested on your opinion on this, whether it would be good or bad to
    have a unity ticket at all, and whether it's clear/opaque as to whether
    Obama could realistically function under Clinton and whether Clinton could
    function under Obama (I mention this particularly because I feel Clinton's
    policies go much farther than Obama's (such as health care), and Obama as
    Prez would surely limit Clinton's effectiveness).

    What are the pluses/minuses of  Unity Ticket, and how should the DNC make the choice for who is Prez and who is Veep?

    unity ticket (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:38:32 PM EST
    I favored Clinton/Ometoo originally, but no more!  I've been thinking about the representation of Dan Quayle as a feather and wondering what the strip would do with Ometoo.  I have about decided on a stick figure.  Let's have two adults on the ticket.

    Parent
    Eh (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by nell on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:59:47 PM EST
    While I recognize that a unity ticket may be forced (unless, of course, Nancy P. has her way), I personally would not like it at all. I see why it would be necessary, but I am not enthused.

    This may not be a popular view, but I don't yet trust Senator Obama. He has yet to show me what he stands for and what he believes in, other than unity for unity's sake. I have no idea what he will fight for in office other than making nice with Republicans. That, to me, represents a very naive world view. The Republicans, for the most part, don't give a crap about Kumbayah. His "me too" routine also makes me feel uncomfortable because I feel like if he was VP he would always be trying to overshadow Clinton and if he was President, Clinton would do all the work and he would take all the credit.

    And, of course, there is the whole feminist slant. It would make me REALLY uncomfortable to have Senator Clinton as a VP. There is just something so off-putting about a more experienced, more qualified woman training her less experiences, less qualified boss for the job he has been given. This would make me uncomfortable especially after all of the unbounded sexism in the media that I believe has given Senator Obama a boost.

    Parent

    Logged in for (none / 0) (#16)
    by eleanora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:18:13 PM EST
    the first time in awhile on Kos today to say thanks to jotter for his daily and weekly high impact diary lists. His tireless efforts really deserve praise and support if you have a minute.

    Some DK'ers are a bit upset over MT Gov Brian Schweitzer criticizing Senator Obama in an interview. Sounded pretty mild to me, actually; I don't think Schweitzer is particularly against Obama, and he doesn't mention Clinton; he's just a policy wonk who likes to talk about issues.

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Steve M on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:30:44 PM EST
    Here are a couple links for those, like me, who refuse to give Big Orange any site traffic.

    Schweitzer was always a netroots fave, but of course, all criticism of Obama is automatically misguided.  You wonder when these people will realize that Paul Krugman, Elizabeth Edwards, and Brian Schweitzer are all criticizing Obama on the mandate issue because he's wrong as a policy matter, not because they're a bunch of deranged haters.

    Parent

    I have to assume (none / 0) (#170)
    by shoephone on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:52:58 PM EST
    that even the smallest criticism of Obama from Schweitzer will be causing Sirota's head to explode.

    Parent
    My issue today is (none / 0) (#18)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:19:39 PM EST
    that McCain thinks pre-emptive war is awesome.

    More Bush Doctrine! Woo-hoo!

    Not only does he think pre-emptive war (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by litigatormom on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:49:46 PM EST
    is awesome, but he doesn't seem to think he needs to get Congress's assent to such a war. Yeah, you consult with a few people, your neo-con friends, just enough to say that you didn't act unilaterally, but enough to say that you actually complied with the Constitution's edict that only Congress can declare war.  Maybe, after the war starts, you'll try to get Congressional ratification under the War Powers Act, but you know, you can always say that any aspect of the GWOT was authorized by the AUMF, so why bother?

    P.S. my husband just e-mailed me that he is sitting in a restaurant next to Keith Olbermann.  The last time we saw KO in a restaurant (2 years ago) we told him how much we loved his show.  I e-mailed my husband back: "Tell him I don't like him anymore."  My husband is nervy, but probably not that nervy.  We'll see.

    Parent

    I await a report! (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:50:57 PM EST
    Hubby says (none / 0) (#171)
    by litigatormom on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:25:27 PM EST
    he didn't tell KO of my disappointment.  He said looks pudgier than he does on TV.  That's something, I suppose.

    Parent
    Well, Obama's Pakistan comment (none / 0) (#27)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:30:32 PM EST
    sounded he agrees.  He can go into a sovereign nation and start blowing things up.  How is that different?

    Parent
    That was part of what was wrong (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:38:30 PM EST
    With Obama's statements on Pakistan.

    The other part is that he seemed to think Mussharraf was in a position to capture Osama Bin Laden.

    So he was trying to establish some hawkish bona fides.

    All he did is show that he has very little understanding of the political situation in Pakistan.


    Parent

    Do NOT get me started (none / 0) (#37)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:35:59 PM EST
    on Obama and foreign policy cluelessness. I'll be here all day. ;-)

    Parent
    Well we know Hillary agrees (none / 0) (#100)
    by fuzzyone on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:56:57 PM EST
    having voted for preemptive war.

    Comparing Obama's very limited statement that, if we had actionable intelligence about a high value terrorist target and if Musharraf would not act he would, to McCain's vision of endless war is absurd.  Has Clinton said what she would do in that circumstance?

    Parent

    She said she would attack (none / 0) (#146)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:06:02 PM EST
    but call first so they would know it wasn't an attack coming from India...

    Parent
    My hometown paper (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:27:40 PM EST
    has a story in it today about salvia divinorum showing up in schools. Apparently it's a hallucinogenic plant and legal in most states.

    Anyone have any experience with it?

    I tried it once..... (none / 0) (#68)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:07:18 PM EST
    they sell it legally here in NY at head shops and such.

    It's almost like a 5-15 minute mushroom trip....the giggles with some light visuals, and before you know it you're back to normal.  The smoke didn't have a pleasant flavor, and harsh on the throat.

    I'm in no rush to try it again...kinda disappointing actually.  And I've heard second-hand that if you don't have experience with psychedelics it's possible to bug pretty hard and have a "bad trip".

    There's been some noise here locally about banning it.

    Parent

    Thanks, kdog, (none / 0) (#105)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:00:08 PM EST
    I figured you'd be the one who'd tried it!

    I googled as well and it doesn't really sound like it's all that much fun, and usage seems pretty low also, probably for that reason.

    I imagine there will probably be some here who call for it's banning as well, but I hopefully our legislature can find something more important to do with their time.

    wiki, I think, says it might help with arthritis. I've got a banged-up shoulder from years of rugby that I'd love to get some non-surgical pain relief help with...

    Parent

    You know me too well:).... (none / 0) (#117)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:10:11 PM EST
    I definitely do not recommend salvia for pain relief...fwiw.

    I'd tell you my preferred pain killer options but I'm probably already over the line:)

    Parent

    Yes, I need pain relief (none / 0) (#120)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:13:41 PM EST
    as well as the ability to speak in complete sentences.:-)

    I guess I'll stick with my ibuprofen.

    Parent

    Ibuprofen?..... (none / 0) (#129)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:26:12 PM EST
    That sh*t is for kids:)

    Too bad our govt. treats us like children, otherwise you could go to CVS and buy something that works without obtaining a permission slip first.

    Feel better brother...

    Parent

    perhaps try a Homeopathic cream with (none / 0) (#141)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:49:13 PM EST
    Arnica in it. My Chiro turned me on to it years ago. He's German and said that's what the athletes there use. I use it for my computer wrist/hand and anytime I do something stupid that causes a flare up from past injuries. (shoulder/neck/back)

    I get it at a health food store, but I'm sure some reg pharmacies carry it also.

    Parent

    Thanks, I'll try it. (none / 0) (#165)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:13:18 PM EST
    Have you tried acupuncture? (none / 0) (#121)
    by tree on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:14:18 PM EST
    Haven't needed it myself, but I know of a few people who have been helped by it.

    Parent
    I haven't. Thanks, I'll look into it. (none / 0) (#122)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:15:41 PM EST
    The concept appeals to me.

    Parent
    Acupuncture! (none / 0) (#126)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:21:56 PM EST
    It was the only thing that helped my back when I had a swollen disk that was putting pressure on my sciatic nerve. It was incredibly effective and quite painless. :-)

    Parent
    Come on, BTD! (none / 0) (#75)
    by Kathy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:23:07 PM EST
    That O on the Down Low article was hilarious!  The rainbow O alone was priceless!

    Here is something folks should check out (none / 0) (#93)
    by 1jpb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:43:52 PM EST
    Maybe it's been mentioned on talkleft, since it's a little old.  But, I've been watching it piece by piece as time permitted, and the whole thing is great.



    New Rules (none / 0) (#98)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:53:14 PM EST
    New rule; comedians like Bill Maher have to start doing comedy that is funny.  For the last two weeks, Mr. Maher han tried to resurrect old, tired, overused jokes about Bill Clinton and Ms. Lewenski.  For the last two weeks, the audience's laughter at these jokes has been underwhelming.  These jokes were funny for awhile, back when the story first broke.  But to hear them now is like watching "Caddyshack" for the 1,000th time.  In order to be funny, comedy has to have some kind of 'unexpected' punch line, and when the audience alreasy knows it by heart, it just ceases to be funny.  Hey, Bill! It's not the 1990's anymore. The rest of the world has moved on!  You tired, old jokes just don't work now.

    There are only two reasons I can think of that a comedian would continue to tell jokes that don't elicit laughter.

    1)  He's a lazy SOB and so doesn't try to create new material.

    -or-

    2)  He wants to keep an old story in his audience's mind in order to darken their perception of the presiden's wife, who's campaign he's decided to try to poison.

    What about a hybrid? (none / 0) (#102)
    by 1jpb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:58:24 PM EST
    He sees that HRC's chances are dwindling, so he needs to toss out the old material before it looks even more lazy because she isn't in the race.

    Parent
    How Is The Weather In Your World? (none / 0) (#134)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:34:11 PM EST
    In the world most of live on, she is in the race.

    Parent
    I wasn't clear. (none / 0) (#135)
    by 1jpb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:39:53 PM EST
    I meant that he is doing this now because she is still in the race now, but odds are that she won't be later.

    Parent
    The Voters Are Underestimated (none / 0) (#151)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:29:43 PM EST
    The press corps holds theirselves in unreasonable high esteem.  Look at all the self-congradulatory events they hold to honor theirselves.  They believe they will be able to tell the whole population what to think.  Ok, maybe that works for A.M. radio dittoheads.  The electorate can be surprisingly independent of the kingmakers of the press corps, however.

    The media is unquestioningly hostile to Clinton.  Have you seen the you-tube video complilation?  Have you watched MSNBC( Misogynic, Sexist Neanderthals Bashing Clinton ) network?  They use valuable air time in a concentrated attempt to bring her down.  If they suceed, then they can all celibrate, but we lose in the process.  There is a responsibility that isn't being kept.  People need accurate information to make informed choices.  The media is letting us down.

    I don't mind people taking sides.  The responsibilities need to be kept, protected and assured.  Maybe they will bring her down; time will tell.  My hope is that the electorate can see through the smear and make a good decision in spite of it.

    Parent

    Huckabee's website countdown (none / 0) (#127)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:22:43 PM EST
    is interesting.  I'm hoping he's running for President with the Constition party. McCain's VP would be nice, but unlikely.  Probably just a countdown to an updated website...

    Maybe a countdown to the Rapture? (none / 0) (#131)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:28:06 PM EST
    Romor has it it's all over baby, in 2012:)

    Parent
    Dec 21. 2012, I think (none / 0) (#144)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:01:40 PM EST
    But his countdown ends next week.

    Parent
    That's it.... (none / 0) (#155)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:43:55 PM EST
    the Mayan calendar millenium...thanks.

    If one of 'em is right, I hope it's the Mayans:)

    Parent

    Jackie Speier (none / 0) (#132)
    by akaEloise on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:33:26 PM EST
    The newest member of Congress begins as she means to go on:
    Speier sworn in, booed by Republicans


    Only Rhodes knows..... (none / 0) (#143)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:59:09 PM EST
    what Rhodes believes.

    I think she really doesn't like Hillary, and I think she was being sincere.  But you don't know, I don't know.

    Aren't you glad she said it? If she hadn't, you wouldn't know how much you dislike her and disagree with her.  If she had censored herself, you wouldn't know how Randi Rhodes really feels and would not have complete info to form an opinion of her.

    That's why I want people to speak their minds uncensored...so I know how to feel about them.  

    PS...I certainly don't mind, but you need to through an asterisk in your f-bombs or something...it's a site rule to prevent the site from being blocked by law firms with filtering software.  Your comment could get deleted, and I'd hate to see that, I wanna know how you really feel:)

    It's Simply Not Thinkable That She Would Believe (none / 0) (#147)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:06:55 PM EST
    I would have to be exceedingly guillable to think anyone would honestly belive what she has claimed.  It's in insult, pure and simple.  If I didn't have the good sense to honestly criticise someone, I could just call a bunch of disgraceful names, but that would make me Insincere.  No, I'm not glad she said it.  It adds nothing of value to the dialog.  It cheapens the discussiona and distract us from what is real.  It gives other a sort of rational to make equally useless remarks.  It doesn't matter if I like her or not.  She is as umimportant to me now as she was before.  

    I'll take your advice on my f***g remarks.

    Parent

    She has repeatedly said on her show (none / 0) (#148)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:09:54 PM EST
    that she likes and admires Hillary. She has called HRC "wonderful."

    Then she turns around and says that.

    So who knows what she believes? I think she was pandering to the audience, which was made up of Obama supporters who had paid to be there. Rightly or wrongly, she felt that they would agree with her.

    I am no closer to knowing what she believes, but I do know that I now think she is a complete jerk.

    It's Phonominal (none / 0) (#152)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:36:59 PM EST
    To see democrats, liberal, progressives, or whatever they call their selves ( anti-Republicans? ) who, upon deciding to support one candidate, immediately began to spew vile and hatred towards the other.  No wonder we lose often.

    Parent
    NY Times Hypes Obama experience (none / 0) (#160)
    by boredmpa on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:25:11 PM EST
    Sigh, why is the times running basically a press release for Obama's saturday speech on Foreign Policy?

    NY times on Obama experience

    They conveniently left out that he was in indonesia from 7-11 and that Clinton did more than just meet with CIA station chiefs and see native dances.  And WHY did they leave out that he said he didn't NEED an experienced VP?!

    However, they did point out the McCain had lived abroad (rather funny, imho).  Why no love for Hillary and no analysis of Obama?  This speech is from saturday so what's the excuse for not doing a bit of analysis?

    Hypes? (none / 0) (#161)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:36:41 PM EST
    Isn't the article about Obama's speech? Because it is not bashing him, and praising CLinton, it is a PR piece? How would you want the speech covered?

    Let me guess.....

    Obama Hypes His Experience Or Lack Of It

    Parent

    well, you're trolling (none / 0) (#163)
    by boredmpa on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:50:51 PM EST
    But I'll respond anyway.  

    a) The speech is from saturday, and such things don't usually get popped into the nytimes as news, at least without some analysis/responses/checking.

    b) It doesn't ask any of the questions raised about the speech over the past week.

    c) It ignores key questions asked during the event--the VP selection comment.

    Thus, it hypes the speech.  If it was same day reporting, maybe they'd get a pass on b).  But remember that the press tends to ask clinton hard questions two to three times until they get a good soundbite and it HAS been 5 days.  Here we don't even see the I don't need a VP with foreign policy experience quote (wait til the general vs McCain). They cannot get a pass on c)


    Parent

    Trolling? (none / 0) (#167)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:29:44 PM EST
    How is that. Because I am not bashing Obama or shilling for Clinton?  I read the article and it made sense. It was not hype as I understand the word.

    From WordNet (r) 2.0:

    hype
         n : blatant or sensational promotion [syn: ballyhoo, hoopla,
              plug]

    The article was purely descriptive and recounted the main points from the speech.

    Yes, I get it you are campaigning for CLinton so any article about Obama must be negative otherwise it is "hype".

    I would lay off the kool aid it is affecting your reading comprehension.


    Parent