home

Is The "Creative Class" Blogosphere New to Politics?

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

Apparently, the "Creative Class" blogosphere just fell off the political turnip truck. Josh Marshall approvingly quotes (now seconded by Matt Yglesias, will it make the complete rounds of the "creative Class"?) Harvard sociologist Theda Skocpol:

I have been in meetings with the Clintons and their advisors where very clinical things were said in a very-detached tone about unwillingness of working class voters to trust government -- and Bill Clinton -- and about their unfortunate (from a Clinton perspective) proclivity to vote on life-style rather than economic issues. To see Hillary going absolutely over the top to smash Obama for making clearly more humanly sympathetic observations in this vein, is just amazing.

Um, if the difference between internal campaign discussions and candidate statements on the stump (and Ms. Skocpol's characterization of Obama's statements is extremely charitable at best) is beyond Josh Marshall, then it is pretty clear he has no clue about politics. But let's face it - Josh does know the difference. This is just more of his Clinton Derangement Syndrome. Oh BTW, I would not be trotting out a Harvard sociologist to defend Obama from a charge of elitism if I were the Obama campaign.

< Hillary Wins Nevada County Caucuses | Obama Then And Now: RW Talking Points? >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Ha! (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by lansing quaker on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:20:28 AM EST
    "Oh BTW, I would not be trotting out a Harvard sociologist to defend Obama from a charge of elitism if I were the Obama campaign."

    Right on, BTD.

    Yes, politics is a behind-the-scenes affiar.  It probably just more of that CDS; Obama does something that's up for criticism, and yet, "The Clintons did it, too!"

    Oy.

    The Obama camp obviously (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by felizarte on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:27:00 AM EST
    has not stopped digging the hole yet.

    Parent
    Oh BTW (none / 0) (#21)
    by 1jane on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:38:44 AM EST
    Read the entire Josh Marshall post and watch Obama discuss the same issues back in 2004 over there. Obama is talking with Charlie Rose.

    Parent
    That is a DIFFERENT post (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:40:06 AM EST
    You make it sound that I deliberately ignored that part of the post.

    Personally, I DOUBT that video is at all helpful to Obama. He needs this issue to go away - not "put it in context."

    Parent

    Exactly--this comment needs to disappear down the (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by doyenne49 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:55:14 AM EST
    media memory hole, not get endlessly nuanced and masticated over and re-spun by Obama partisans. The comments are killing him with constituencies he has to reach, and they aren't going to be mollified by pseudo-apologies, what-I-meant-to-say prevarications, or blustering assertions that Clinton said it too.

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#107)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:38:54 AM EST
    They are jumping into the hole with him and helping him dig.

    Parent
    According to Politico (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:15:53 AM EST
    Here's the key sentence from the Charlie Rose interivew: ""If we don't have plausible answers on the economic front, and if we appear to be condescending toward those traditions that are giving their lives some stability, then they're going to opt for at least that party that seems to be speaking to the things that...provide them with something solid to stand on."

    (Emphasis mine.)

    I'm speechless.  The Clinton campaign should do an ad with this clip and then right away his "cling to" comments.  He condemns himself out of his own mouth.

    Unbelievable.


    Parent

    He needs a new title (none / 0) (#109)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:40:46 AM EST
    for when he is speaking to closed invites of "millionaires only", Insular Blue Collar Affliction.

    Them. Them. Them.



    Parent

    If Obama back in 2004 (5?) (none / 0) (#139)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:41:39 PM EST
    saying he was not qualified enough to be president contrasted with the Obama of today didn't work, then I doubt that will.

    Of course, I'm sure Rove will think differently.

    Parent

    Oh, it's worse than ... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Caro on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:38:47 PM EST
    ... "the Clintons did it, too."  Obama's condescension is actually Hillary Clinton's FAULT!  You had to know this was coming.

    Sent to me by an Obama supporter:

    Congressional Republicans, Afraid of Obama, Throw Hail Mary Pass to Try to Keep Him From Nomination (by DHinMI at Daily Kos)
    Barack Obama's comments about the bitterness of Americans let down by their government has prompted derision from the Clintons, John McCain and the Congressional Republicans, who are all saying roughly the same thing.  Is it good for Democratic politics to have message discipline between Hillary Clinton and the GOP?

    I refuse to link to Daily Kos, so if you want to read the entire post, you'll have to go find it yourself.

    Carolyn Kay
    MakeThemAccountable.com

    Parent

    It's easier to feign outrage (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:26:03 AM EST
    if one can pretend to be clueless and born yesterday.

    I'm getting to where I can't even (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:32:09 AM EST
    feign sighing and scratching myself.  I'm almost intellectually issue comatose at this campaign point ;)  I'm working on not slinging mud but there's so much of it everyplace I look.  I could just lay in it and pretend this is a spa day I suppose, thoughtlessly laying around in mud.

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#67)
    by sas on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:58:21 AM EST
    a spa day..

    I'm sure those bitter small town voters, clinging to religion, guns, racism, xenophobia, and immigrant hatred, can relate to a spa day.....

    Parent

    Oh, snap! (none / 0) (#91)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:26:56 AM EST
    More latte, vicar?

    Parent
    at a certain blog (5.00 / 8) (#5)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:26:42 AM EST
    the diaries and comments are so dismissive of even the possibility that this will hurt obama- if the insular myopia of the creative crass echo chamber had ever been in doubt...

    the only question is about how much damage this has done, and whether it will hit fully in the remaining primaries, or not until the gop 527s get ahold of it. i don't pretend to know the answer, although the rasmussen tracker is interesting. but to completely dismiss- indeed, to disparage the idea that this is going to have impact- is just embarrassing.

    Honestly (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:28:45 AM EST
    I have never trusted Rasmussen. I do not believe he is a an honest pollster.

    Parent
    he's a gop pollster (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:34:30 AM EST
    but his trends have followed gallup's, with perhaps larger edges moving both ways. i haven't written anything about the impact of this because it's not yet clear what it will be, or when it will fully hit, but the fact that it is getting so much media play can't be helping. and the fact that there's audio means we'll be hearing a lot about it come september and october. and yet, some people seem to think that obama's magic teflon will continue to protect him. actually, it's even worse- some people think he did no wrong, does no wrong, can do no wrong. any sane and honest assessment has to at the very least consider the possibility that this is just reinforces a framing that has been building, and that the gop is just salivating to take advantage of.

    Parent
    I ignore the shrill people (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:36:08 AM EST
    and watch what the candidate does.

    Obama seems to recognize that this is a problem.

    Parent

    he keeps (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:40:53 AM EST
    re-nuancing his explanation. which is interestingly telling.

    Parent
    I am happy to see he is (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:42:24 AM EST
    Axelrod is not a fool at least.

    Parent
    axelrod (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:45:13 AM EST
    is as slick as they get- and i mean that as a double-edged sword. but the more they keep massaging this, this more obvious it is that they're massaging it.

    Parent
    On Nuance (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by lyzurgyk on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:55:29 AM EST
    My apologies for the source but this is an interesting analysis.

    Get ready for plenty of this in the fall.

    Parent

    a lot of obama supporters (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:59:25 AM EST
    seem to think hillary is fighting dirty. they have no idea what the gop will make of these gaffes. i don't know if it's ignorance, naivete, or psychotic delusions, but any thinking person can easily imagine the coming gop ads.

    Parent
    After listening to a smattering of Sunday talk.. (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:34:44 AM EST
    ..I feel fairly certain that this will not hurt Obama with regards to getting the nomination. The media seemed more intent on covering up for Obama and in being outraged that this is something they even want to talk about when they had clearly planned to make today all about bashing Bill Clinton for giving them an opportunity to bash Hillary on Bosnia gaffe again.

    They want to pick the Democratic nominee. But they are really not helping Barack Obama by cleaning up after him every time he mispeaks because Obama doesn't really have to change very much and he will continue to say stupid things. In the GE election, on the other hand, McCain will be able to drag out the old Republican chestnut about the elite liberal media and this time around, it will have the ring of truth.

    Parent

    I told you so (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:38:45 AM EST
    Yes, but.. (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by daria g on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:08:24 PM EST
    If they're still talking about it.. well, they're still talking about it, so the story hasn't yet gone away.  Wonder if Hardball will chew over it for a few more days.  I saw Jeffrey Toobin on CNN just about spitting mad on Friday that anyone dared to call out Obama for his remarks - not even trying to pretend he had any objectivity on the matter.

    [Incidentally, BTD, I never thought I'd be agreeing with you a lot of the time after the dKos days, but I'm in self-imposed exile from there now and have been lurking here at TalkLeft for a long while.  I appreciate so much the voices of reason both you and Jeralyn have brought to the blogosphere during the primaries especially!]

    Parent

    Yes you did. (none / 0) (#46)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:47:14 AM EST
    But Not Sure It Matters (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by cdalygo on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:12:55 AM EST
    It's one thing for the national media to keep cleaning up for him. But what actually counts is the local media in the states and that's not going for him.

    Plus I believe that more folks are turning away from them as shown by dropping ratings.

    I can also only offer some slight but perhaps telling anecdotal evidence.

    I saw this falling away at a table full of non-blogosphere Hillary supporters in Northern California.  All expressed outright disappointment and bewilderment  at places like CNN. (Most seemed to have been fans of the shows that I stopped watching years ago. By that I mean they knew the names and characteristics of each reporters.) Many admitted to sheepishly turning on Fox just to get some good news about Hillary (though all knew it wouldn't last beyond primary).

    Their comments match those of the folks who post at the Taylor Marsh site. Yes, yes, I know that many folks here don't like that site. But it's one  that I liken more to talk radio with its broader audience.  

    So no personal offense BTD but I know longer believe that the MSM's rabid support matters. Much like some of the A-List bloggers, the emperor's clothes are off with their viewers. That especially holds true when you factor in how that support will disappear in the GE.

    Parent

    Ouch (none / 0) (#137)
    by waldenpond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:38:56 PM EST
    I live in Northern California and have read Taylor Marsh.  I don't make comments like that. (Although, like many here, I have had to watch Fox on occasion so I my head won't explode, they are equal opportunity haters after all)

    CNN is on 37 minutes of Bitter this morning.  Their opening was flipping back and forth from Obama to Clinton.. bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter etc.  Clinton is getting positive coverage this morning, Obama not so much.

    Parent

    Recall the term "the chattering class"? (none / 0) (#125)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:03:02 PM EST
    More descriptive of much of the blogosphere and media than this new moniker.

    Parent
    Turkana, could I ask you an offtopic question? (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:46:40 AM EST
    Now that I see you again!

    When Edwards dropped out on Jan 30/31, he gave as a reason for endorsing neither candidate, that "Obama was too inexperienced, and Hillary Clinton was too divisive."

    I am looking for a link to that news,... nothing! but I distinctly remember him saying it within a day or so of dropping out.

    (BTW I really enjoy reading the left coaster - but my computer can't figure out the commentsystem.)


    Parent

    Edwards never said that (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Josey on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:35:22 AM EST
    A few weeks after Edwards suspended on Jan. 30, a surrogate said Edwards thought "Obama was too inexperienced to be president."
    Like you, I can't find a link.
    Pretty sure it was at MyDD.

    Parent
    i don't recall him saying such (none / 0) (#52)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:50:46 AM EST
    and it sounds to politically blunt. i'm assuming it came from one of his surrogates.

    as for tlc- a) thanks, and b) the comments are a pop-up. for now...

    Parent

    It wasn't him speaking or writing it directly (none / 0) (#126)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:05:19 PM EST
    but my memory of it is a visual - it was against the backdrop of the podium where he announced...so it was either a newspaper I read... or I am thinking maybe it was the spokesthing opining quoting an anonymous source on broadcast news...I don't have cable(won't pay for faux news)

    Parent
    This part (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:31:55 AM EST
    got to me:

    To see Hillary going absolutely over the top to smash Obama for making clearly more humanly sympathetic observations in this vein, is just amazing.

    Obama-speak at its finest.

    Over the top = Shrill, hysterical harpy.

    Smash = giving a speech calling him on his gaffe.

    Humanly sympathetic observations = characterizing a large swathe of the Dem base as bitter and clinging.

    If I didn't know better, I'd think that some Obama supporters had never lived through a political race before.  Honestly, what do they think this is?  A pillow fight at a slumber party?  

    You missed ... (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by lyzurgyk on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:38:59 AM EST

    ... "a few days of lurid publicity"

    Lurid, lurid Hillary!!

    Parent

    Good catch (none / 0) (#40)
    by stillife on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:45:26 AM EST
    Lurid publicity = Clinton "baggage".  

    Parent
    Lurid according to Princeton ... (none / 0) (#71)
    by lyzurgyk on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:00:34 AM EST

    "horrible in fierceness or savagery"

    Parent
    It might be a number of things (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by blogtopus on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:49:50 AM EST
    1. The relatively young age of the volunteer support - this energy might be passing on to the older more 'seasoned' vets in the same way that voters are allowing their children to decide their votes for them: "It's the next generation - we should be listening to them and their hoobastank albums."

    2. The excitement of having a year where - at least a few months ago - the prospect of winning the election seemed like a slam dunk. They still haven't woken up to the fact that it is a real fight now, the bowing and scraping is over and the gloves are off.

    3. The KIND of class that Obama is attracting. BTD has it right: the Dem establishment is HORRIBLE at feeling the pulse of America, and goes for the limosine liberals almost every time. That's why they hate the Clintons - despite the moolah involved they don't exude the limosine feel; it's more like the newest, shiniest model pickup truck.


    Parent
    If I had listened to my son in 2000 (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:32:59 AM EST
    in his first prez election, I would have voted for Nader.  Instead, I talked with him afterward about how that had fallen out, and he learned from me (as ever, after making a mistake, but that's parenting).

    We have had to clean up (all too literally sometimes) after our kids for years, as our parents did for us, so I really do not believe that a sizeable number of older voters are letting their kids lead them on this.  That stupid story itself, based on a couple of anecdotes, said that the extent of any such trend is entirely unknown.

    When I was part of the "children's crusades," as they were called then, for McCarthy and McGovern, my parents watched in pride as I learned about politics the hard way . . . but voted exactly as they had planned to do and always did, on the issues.  Sometimes that meant we didn't vote the same; sometimes, we did.  

    So we learned from each other, listening to each other, my parents and I -- but I was the one who had a lot more to learn from them.:-)  

    Parent

    With regards to point #1.... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:54:42 AM EST
    ...I sadly have to admit now that my generation has coddled its kids too much. But then again, this group right behind us is even worse. $500 for Hanna Montana tickets?

    Parent
    "their hoobastank albums" Ha! (none / 0) (#62)
    by tigercourse on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:55:03 AM EST
    Over the top vs. scraping the bottom (none / 0) (#94)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:27:17 AM EST
    Of the two, I'll take the candidate who is upbeat and focused on talking to us about how she can help us fix our lives, i.e., Clinton -- rather than Obama scraping the bottom by dissing us to billionaires.

    Parent
    Copying myself from last night (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:31:58 AM EST
    When I know someone is a Hillary hater and not an honest analyst.  Easy, look at key words in this article:  
    Hillary going absolutely over the top to smash Obama, gaining a few days of lurid publicity
    she will need if she somehow claws her way to the nomination
    she desperately wants the nomination

    This passes for  commentary?   This is analysis?  

    Claws her way (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:34:30 AM EST
    Interestingly, Skocpol sued Harvard for denying her tenure. She claimed it was because she is a woman.

    Parent
    yes (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:40:04 AM EST
    but hillary is not a woman. she's a witch.

    one thing that has also gotten too little notice is that part of the reason she's lashing out at obama over this has to be deeply personal. he once again equated the clinton era with the reagan-bush era, once again completely denigrated the clinton presidency. he does that a lot. it's part of his schtick. not that he would go negative, or anything, but those of us who remember the reagan-bush era know that as flawed as the clinton presidency was, it was in no way comparable to the reagan-bush era. obama is hoist on his own petard. i had some sympathy for him over wright, even as i recognized the long-term political damage that would come, over the summer and fall; but because this one came from his trying to take another cheap shot at the clintons, i have no sympathy at all.

    Parent

    Funny you should say that (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:43:58 AM EST
    I had a friend of a friend tell me last night that the main reason she supported Obama is that "Hillary is basically a man."

    Parent
    You're friends with MoDo? (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:46:34 AM EST
    Hillary is a man and Obama is a woman is what she writes in all her columns.

    Parent
    heh, no (none / 0) (#50)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:48:46 AM EST
    but seriously, I didn't know how to respond. If people were as racist in public, they'd be ostracized.

    Parent
    She won't vote for Clinton because (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:51:59 AM EST
    she doesn't act "womanish" or she has somehow betrayed her female nature?  Trying to understand where this person is coming from.  P.S. thank God I don't read MoDo........what a load of eye crossing bull.  How do these people manage to get paid writing such manure?

    Parent
    i wrote about that (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:52:40 AM EST
    a few days aqo, after reading an exasperated joan walsh.

    Parent
    right before Ohio (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:14:42 AM EST
    60 minutes interviewed factory workers saying they wouldn't vote for a woman...zero response in the piece or on blogs...

    Parent
    Good thing there aren't that many (none / 0) (#87)
    by Fabian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:24:19 AM EST
    factory workers anymore, then.  Right?

    {That's snark. I live in the Rust Belt.)

    Parent

    That's another thing (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:47:10 AM EST
    that makes me so sick. He keeps referring to everything as the Bush-Clinton era. Things fell by the wayside with Clinton and Bush. He keeps saying it. It keeps making me less and less likely to ever vote for him.

    And the misogyny thrown at Hillay by WOMEN especially. Ugh. I cannot understand it.  

    Parent

    the misogyny (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:54:05 AM EST
    has been a cultural revelation. but you have to vote for obama, if he's nominated. four years of mccain is unthinkable.

    Parent
    A buddy system (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:04:59 AM EST
    I suggest that we should pair up while voting to make sure people survive the ordeal.  

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by sas on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:08:39 AM EST
    I don't have to vote for Obama.  

    I'm not going to vote for somebody the party tries to shove down my throat, who I don't like and don't even respect.

    Parent

    It's the "dynasty" meme. (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Fabian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:28:43 AM EST
    That's part of the reason that Obama keeps on pushing "Bush-Clinton".  It's just plain word association.

    I've yet to meet anyone who can adequately defend the "dynasty" meme.  As far as I can tell, it's just another reason to hate on Hillary.  What's even stranger is that some people appear to hate on Bill because they hate on Hillary.  It's just plain bizzarro out there.

    Parent

    She won, too (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:45:33 AM EST
    I'm guessing from her rant they actually denied her tenure because she's obnoxious.


    Parent
    If being obnoxious was a tenure-denying offense (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by clio on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:04:19 AM EST
    the number of tenured professors, male, would fall dramatically.

    Not that I particularly disagree with your point. You're probably right - but writing into tenure standards that female professors must not be obnoxious to male sensibilities is too outre in bold, cold print no matter how true in practice.  

    As for the quality of her academics please remember that equality will only be achieved when a mediocre woman can get as far as a mediocre man.

    Parent

    True enough (none / 0) (#99)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:31:14 AM EST
    and I agree with you completely in general.  But tenure committees simply have to consider personality, especially in a small department (although I believe the sociology dept. at Harvard is not a small one).  Academic politics are bad enough as it is without taking in a poisonous and divisive personality.

    There have been, I understand, just endless personal/political battles in this area of academic departments at Harvard that the tenure committee in her case might -- I say might -- have been working very hard to try to mend, or at least not make worse.

    That said, you're of course totally right that women still are allowed much, much smaller margins for "personality issues" than men do.

    I really don't know the details of Skocpol's tenure battle at Harvard, except that it was very ugly and went on for a long, long time.


    Parent

    As one initially denied tenure (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:38:09 AM EST
    for doing women's history . . . I have to ask that we be careful about tossing off witticisms so easily how it really works in an old boys' system.  Until you have been there, you cannot know.  And as a lot of people don't know, these are huge decisions against huge odds -- and can be career-ending decisions.  A lot of people I knew, and that I thought knew more about what it means, really didn't realize that not getting tenure means you're getting fired.  

    And afterward, you can find another job in academe, but not as good a job at as good a campus -- no matter how good you are.  It's almost a blacklist.

    Good for Skocpol for fighting back, and she is a fine scholar.  That said, her field is not poli sci.  Or women's history.  Or history at all -- and this historic campaign follows some models from the past but not others, as a historian would see.:-)

    Parent

    Yes, of course, Cream City. I was a bit glib. (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by clio on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:17:46 PM EST
    The very fact that tenure is crucial in an academic career is the reason that most tenure committees pay little or no attention to the congeniality of the nominee - provided that nominee is male.  The quality of the scholarship supposedly trumps all, and no one is required to like or socialize with one's colleagues.

    Women  in academia, as in so many fields, are often held to different, undocumented, unstated, and unadmitted standards.*  That Skocpel won her tenure fight in open court speaks to the quality of her scholarship in her field. That's a difficult fight to win for the same reasons that tenure may be difficult for women to achieve in the first place.

    It sounds like you, too, prevailed against odds.
    Congratulations!

    *cannot resist adding "like a certain presidential candidiate..."

    Parent

    No probl anyone with the name "Clio" (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:42:03 PM EST
    is okay with me. :-)

    You certainly have summed up well here how it really goes -- and especially with your asterisked comment.  Btw, my campus right now is in the "congeniality as a factor" fight, and it is telling about which colleagues get it, which don't . . . and, of course, which simply remove themselves and don't get involved in self-governance, don't get that it's a gift and not a right, as too many others in this economy know too well.  

    Coming late to academe, after being in the business world, I have to say that some academics are just so . . . academic.*

    *also cannot resist adding "like a certain you-know-who attempting to dumb down sociological discussions with billionaires, who aren't dumb -- and neither are the non-academic voters who know when they're being studied and not respected"

    Parent

    Next thing you know these women... (none / 0) (#19)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:38:00 AM EST
    ...will claim that Hillary Clinton isn't really a woman. That will allow them to cry sexist when they are wronged without having to feel like hypocrites.

    Parent
    I've already been told (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by echinopsia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:26:55 PM EST
    in no uncertain terms, that Hillary is not a feminist.

    She's playing victim. She complains of sexism every time someone criticizes her. She ought to be tough enough to take it. She rode her husband's coattails and has no record of her own accomplishments. She thinks she should be awarded the presidency as recompense for suffering.

    Seriously. On a feminist forum.

    The mind, it boggles. And the stupid, it hurts.

    Parent

    Let me guess (none / 0) (#145)
    by Nadai on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:33:13 PM EST
    Pandagon?  Or Feministing?

    Parent
    Salon TableTalk - feminism thread. (none / 0) (#146)
    by echinopsia on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 05:39:51 PM EST
    lovely (none / 0) (#23)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:38:55 AM EST
    I wonder if there will be a "catfight"? (none / 0) (#39)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:45:19 AM EST
    Interesting that they don't say when these mtgs were. I thought Bill was popular before the start of the Primaries? Could this go back to her first Senate Race? She has done well with upstate NY, which would be the harder market here for her to break into vs the city. When she ran for re-election she did quite well there. And she has been doing well with the demographic in question in the primaries, as we have been reminded waaaaaaay too many times. It was the mantra day in and day out.

    Parent
    Honestly (none / 0) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:47:16 AM EST
    Discussing what was said in those meetings strikes me as unethical to tell you the truth.

    Parent
    I'd have to agree in this situation (none / 0) (#60)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:54:33 AM EST
    and frankly, a tad desperate. I'll give credit for not being 'an unnamed source inside the Clinton Campaign', but otherwise . . .

    Parent
    I agree, BTD -- and if it's a consolation (none / 0) (#111)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:42:28 AM EST
    I think that her consulting opportunities will become more limited because of this. :-)

    Parent
    and just google desperate Hillary attacks (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:08:59 AM EST
    for instance: it takes you to the http://desperatehillaryattacks.com site which the Obama campaign runs...look at factcheck.org on that site...

    The Obama campign operatives at dailykos try to force you to use factcheck.org as if its impartial ...I tried to point out citing opensecrets.org what her actual PACs are (from nursing associations etc) not some evil "special interests" - but it is a lost cause.

    I just hope the superdelegates realise that dailykos has been forcibly cleansed and is no longer representative of the range of progressive voices it once had.

    Per the NYT, the RNC has bought up hundreds of domains to attack both, but for the Obama campaign to use authoritarian astroturf tactics really frightens me...

    Parent

    Axelrod: (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:26:54 AM EST
    Astro turf king.  Best part is the picture.  See what you will think of that MSNBC limey pundit now.  

    Parent
    Truman Capote might call (none / 0) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:35:53 AM EST
    it "reportage" but probably not.  He'd probably call it creative writing.

    Parent
    GAG (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:35:37 AM EST
    Brazille defends Obama's Gaffe of Stephanopoulos: "Constitutional law professor and community organizer"  

    I saw trhat too (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:38:08 AM EST
    Can you say "limousine liberal?"

    How bad are Democrats at politics? VERY BAD.

    Parent

    There's a book to be written (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:41:13 AM EST
    about the last 30 years of Democratic politics: Trying to Lose.

    Parent
    How about (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:43:19 AM EST
    Playing to Lose

    Parent
    Reminds me of a great title (none / 0) (#130)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:15:23 PM EST
    from a colleague about the history of an institution -- a title that couldn't be used, but here 'tis:

    Striving Toward Mediocrity

    Parent

    i'm sure you saw (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:43:43 AM EST
    the close of the seelye/zeleny nyt piece:

    David Saunders, a Democratic strategist and rural advocate, advised John Edwards's presidential campaign but is now neutral. He said he believed that Mr. Obama's comments would offend rural voters.

    "It could mean he's rendered himself unelectable," Mr. Saunders said. "This is a perfect example of why Democrats lose elections."



    Parent
    I did not actually (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:44:59 AM EST
    I do not much care for MudCat Saunders either truth be told.

    Parent
    he's had his own slimey moments (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Turkana on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:48:13 AM EST
    but he's not exactly a clinton booster. and i think his assessment is accurate. he's not saying this will make obama unelectable, but to ignore the possiblity that it might is just absurd. you don't get to keep making these types of gaffes, as they keep reinforcing the same image. eventually, that image calcines into popular conception.

    Parent
    Gore only sighed elitely once (none / 0) (#98)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:30:45 AM EST
    Kerry only winsurfed elitely once, Dukakis only posed in a tank elitely once.

     I don't think theres any way to put this back..its over for Democrats.

    Parent

    Gore always had my sympathy. (none / 0) (#110)
    by Fabian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:42:18 AM EST
    If I had to debate GWB, I'd be hard pressed not to sigh, roll my eyes, smirk or guffaw.

    My husband and I went to see a live showing of the 2004 debate(#2) and he was mad at me because I was heckling GWB.  ("Answer the danged question!" edication, IIRC)

    Parent

    Indeed...who wouldn't? (none / 0) (#127)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:07:43 PM EST
    nice to see you here too, Fabian, wish we weren't all so cramped in this small blue room...I miss seeing everyone at dailykos, theres just too many henchmen there right now.

    Parent
    Well, twice for Dukakis (none / 0) (#132)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:17:29 PM EST
    at least, as he also had his arugala moment.  But it was Belgian endive, a crop that Dukakas recommended to Iowa farmers facing foreclosures.

    Hops for Belgian beer would have made some sense.

    Parent

    As a Metropolitan Opera wing Democrat (none / 0) (#44)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:46:56 AM EST
    I quite agree.

    Parent
    We are elitists (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:48:31 AM EST
    But I know politicians can not proudly wear that badge on their political sleeves.

    Parent
    Physical discomfort with class (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:56:33 AM EST
    The truth is America, now more than ever is divided by economic class.  It's not race, religion or ethnicity anymore.  At the same time Americans are in complete denial and still cling to America the meritocracy.  Meritocracy is getting harder when the meritocracy of the last generation rigs the system so that new people don't get to come in.  

    Edwards made the meritcorats uncomfortable.  But guess what, the Liberals/Democrats cannot win without the poor people of all races.  

    I don't think the Obama message works.  It's obvious by him not being able to close the deal.  He had to unite around class, would have been the smart and winning strategy.  He chose the outliers.

    Parent

    I also heard a lot of (none / 0) (#54)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:51:58 AM EST
    "he was only telling the truth" last night.

    This campaign has indeed turned lots of people into political bumpkins.

    Parent

    I found it shocking. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Fabian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:35:22 AM EST
    Are these people supporters or are they mobies, throwing Obama an anchor?

    I've always had a problem impulsively blurting things out that I've instantly regretted.  The internet has helped some - there's no [preview] button when I'm talking.  But those commenters seem not to understand why the perception is the problem and why repeating the meme is just making the problem worse, not better.

    I'm beginning to think Bush thoughts again - "Are they just totally clueless or malign?".

    Parent

    Did Michelle (none / 0) (#25)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:39:43 AM EST
    really say: it's hard to pay the 10,000 for piano etc?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:41:25 AM EST
    If I was anti-Obama the way Marshall is anti-Hillary, you would have been reading about this at this site.

    Parent
    Google Michelle (none / 0) (#141)
    by waldenpond on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:48:30 PM EST
    I wrote that she was a 527 on her own.  She's on video making comments about Americans that would make an awful clip, up there with Wright.  I think that is why she hasn't been out much.

    Parent
    Can't be this bad at it (none / 0) (#92)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:27:03 AM EST
    they gotta want to lose.  yuck

    Parent
    The Obama people must be worried. (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by lyzurgyk on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:35:39 AM EST

    For Marshall to spotlight a hit piece that clumsy and weak has the whiff of panic.   I find it hard to believe that Skocpol is a highly-respected academic based on her email.

    Her comment at the end comparing Hillary's income with Obama's stood out for me.   Skocpol must know that economic standing is far from the only factor involved in "elitism".   And anyway, Obama certainly makes  a great deal of money compared to the "small-towners".   I don't know that either of them are particularly populist but Obama's gaffe in San Francisco have to be of concern.

    Josh Marshall continues to disappoint.   A new low.

    Well it's elitist in itself (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:40:52 AM EST
    to pretend that less-than-wealthy Americans are just disdainful of money. They are not. They see the Clintons as having risen from the working-class roots they have.  That's why they are still so loved among that group.  They don't hate wealth. They hate elitism. As do I. I can't stand it.

    And having Harvard professors coming to your defense does not remotely help your cause.  Not to mention how wrong she is. It's one thing for Bill to point out that sometimes people vote against their economic best interests. It's wholly another to claim that it's the same thing as insulting those voters by calling them bitter, racist, gun-toting religious nuts.  

    Parent

    clingy (none / 0) (#89)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:25:49 AM EST
    like desperate...it implies needy. And this is becoming a fight between those who need help and the heartless who resent having to help.

    Hillary is the more populist of the remaining candidates, and will actually help the sick, the old, the disabled, children, the outsourced and the ecosystem itself

    Obama picking on segments for being needy is the precursor to abandoning those segments. Its a Republican mindset.

    Parent

    clingy (none / 0) (#142)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:51:18 PM EST
    reminds me of what Jon Stewart said way back before I stopped watching him because he was so anti-Clinton:

    (I paraphrase) "Doesn't he sound like her d*ck ex-boyfriend?"

    Parent

    Mixed in with my resigned depression is (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by tigercourse on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:43:22 AM EST
    a growing morbid bemusment. I'm watching the "creative class bloggers" (the day that phrase was created was the begining of the end for the blogs' influence) cling tighter and tighter to this sinking ship. As Obama goes under, he's not only taking a good chunk of the party with him, but he's drowing the Marshalls and the Kos's of the world.

    Polishing the brass on the Titanic? (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by blogtopus on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:56:43 AM EST
    Hell, they're matching curtains at the White House while it's burning up around them. These people have the entitlement thing down pat, and it will be both saddening and amusing to see their reactions when McCain gets sworn in.

    Parent
    IMO (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by sas on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:03:25 AM EST
    Obama has "McGoverned" himself with his recent remarks.

    He is totally unelectable at this point.

    She is going to rack up big numbers in PA, Ky, W Va, and Ind.

    This is not going to go away.

    in Arizona... (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:11:25 AM EST
    when you come across a scorpion or a black widow spider, you kill it with whatever tool is handy, instinctively and without regard to the fact that you haven't actually read the magazine or newspaper in your hand yet.

    That is how JMM operates...he sees Hillary as a unwelcome pest and so he reaches for the nearest tool to get the job handled, without respect for the tool he is using because he is suffering from CDS.

    Josh doesn't want to pay the price for admitting his own CDS and thereby losing traffic so he demonstrates his cognitive dissonance by bringing in these tools.

    What he suffers in the longer term is reader realization of his own dishonest efforts and when Josh loses his credibility, he has nothing at all.

    The only difference between quoting Skocpol instead of pulling from his mailbag is that he is hoping that Skocpol has more credibility than some random mail writer and thus would be more authoritative. It is further proof of his intent to influence yet retain a deceptive appearance of objectivity.

    He's also deeply impressed (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:36:37 AM EST
    by perfessers and lawyers and insiders of various kinds, if we're going to talk about elitism.

    Parent
    Dukakis? (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by kenosharick on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:12:30 AM EST
    One talker compared Obama to Dukakis this morning and I am beginning to see it. The supers have got to see that this plus wright, plus all the other stuff equals a huge loss in Nov. If they give him the nom- they are committing deliberate suicide for the Dem's presidential hopes.

    Apparently Josh missed campaign 2004 (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:27:05 AM EST
    wherein wind surfing was turned into The Sport of Kings

    You now have earned full rights (none / 0) (#133)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:21:52 PM EST
    to change your user name to Wonderfully Snarky. :-)

    Parent
    Yeah, your point (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by frankly0 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:27:20 AM EST
    is exactly on target, and shows the stupid bias of Skocpol, whose hatred of all things Clinton is obviously seeking any harbor it can find.

    While she says, breathtakingly, that, somehow, the "clinical" observations of the Clintons and/or their aides were less "human" than Obama's, to any objective person it's obviously more acceptable to talk about such delicate issues in as "clinical" and  emotionally neutral, and objective terms as possible. Why? Because one wishes above all not to be passing judgment on the people involved, or even appearing to be doing so, precisely because it would seem unfair and unsympathetic to do so.

    And describing Obama's "clinging" sentence as a more "humanly sympathetic" approach is so off-target than it's hard even to read without gagging.

    Yeah, the sentence is more "human" alright, in the sense that it is filled to the brim with a sneering, morally judgmental tone toward those voters -- the precise thing that any "clinical" approach is designed to avoid. He is essentially calling them deluded fools who turn to morally suspect values in their bitterness. Yeah, that what a "human" might say -- a "human" who is so infected with his sense of moral superiority that he can't help but come out with condescending remarks about the little people who refuse to acknowledge his wonderfulness.

    There is a huge difference between (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:35:00 AM EST
    analyzing the behavior and insulting the people that display that behavior.  Maybe they don't teach that at Harvard. Glad I went to college in a small town in the midwest.

    When is the word 'bitter' ever used to compliment, or at the very least show compassion for someone?

    What happened to intelligent discussion? (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:40:36 AM EST
    I joined DK right after Kerry lost because I was frustrated that people were blind and could not see how GW should still be the President. I was a proud member of a growing movement. I didn't write but a few diaries and they were of no consequence, but I joined the call to action and I was very vocal in the comments department. I flinched some times when Diary titles were F$#R&*(#U or a "get off my site" so and so to a elected official. Like they were the ones who owned the site. And I am quite capable of sounding like the Sopranos in some occasions. I think writing ugly words anonymously give people some where to hide behind. I looked up to our FP writers. Even listened to BTD on radio. I felt like we were all working together to win back our Congress and Senate in 06. Wasn't that a great feeling.

    Now it is now.  I wonder what happened to the same people who would have slammed a GOP member for some of Obama's slights. They sure attack Hillary. That is the problem with wearing blinders. I know what Hillary's flaws are. I can see what BHO's flaws are but the same Bloggers I once idolized are not willing to acknowledge them. I would feel better if they were more honest and willing to say, I don't think that was right to say but he has learned from it.

    Dan Quayle was actually a smart man who made gaffes that made him look stupid. GW makes gaffes big time. We laugh and shake our heads. Obama makes a gaffe and he is defended without question by the MSN and bloggers.What happened to their honesty? Was it really there or was I following the wrong crowd? For all I know, all the new members at the top blogs are the GOP crossing over to insure that Obama will be the candidate against McCain and all these gaffes will come home to haunt him. The problem with Obama's gaffe's are each one tells us about the real man and it is not just the spelling of potato.

    I'd love for someone (none / 0) (#113)
    by Fabian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:49:35 AM EST
    with access to the data (jotter?) to show the trends and especially the commenters moving into and out of the blogs.  The front page counts for something, but community blogs are driven by a different dynamic.  As the Edwards, Gore, and Clinton supporters lost influence, others must have gained it.  Who are they?  (And why do they recommend such drek?)

    Parent
    We disappeared and gave them control (none / 0) (#131)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:16:12 PM EST
    It got too ugly and we choose not to be part of the mob rule.

    Parent
    In a way, it's useful (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by frankly0 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:06:07 PM EST
    to see the inner workings of the mind of an "intellectual" like Skocpol when it comes to Obama -- because it shows how shallow their ability to perform reasoning really is when it comes to their biases, and how little room there is for common sense to work against their ideology.

    Really, Skocpol might be regarded as Exhibit A in the mindset of a core group that has coalesced around Obama. The blindness to the effect of their own biases is breathtaking.

    Suffice it to say, anyone who can read Obama's notorious sentence, and think it fairly captures its essence to say that it's just "humanly sympathetic" has lost the ability to see any hand in front of their nose, and maybe their nose as well.

    And the Clinton Derangement Syndrome must be duly noted as well. Just the fact that Skocpol can see only Hillary's attacks on Obama, and not say a word, apparently, about those of McCain and the entire Republican Party, shows how twisted is her perspective on what is taking place.

    Skocpol's commentary is the sort of irrational, distorted observation and "analysis" that gives academics a bad name.

    In general, academic sociologists (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by frankly0 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:08:59 PM EST
    have a very poor reputation for being able to get beyond their biases when it comes to evaluating the phenomena in their own field, namely social groups and behavior.

    Skocpol makes it pretty clear how that reputation might often be deserved.

    Parent

    best comment of the day! (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:52:20 PM EST

    There certainly are some intellectually rigorous sociologists, but it can also be a field rife with biased and distorted analyses. At my institution, there seems to be a constant battle between hard scientist types and social scientists regarding hypothesis testing and intellectual rigor. But this is nothing new. In any case, as you say, it doesn't take a Harvard degree or anything else to see the egregious mismatch between her commentary about Obama's comments and the comments themselves.

    Parent
    Ha! The line on Meet the Press this morn (none / 0) (#138)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:41:18 PM EST
    comes to mind -- from Shrum, trying to fix it all for Obama:

    "He's not running for sociologist-in-chief."

    Good thing, that.  

    Parent

    Whoever Kidnapped Josh Marshall... (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by lambert on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:14:54 PM EST
    ... is doing a really poor job and wrecking the brand.

    How can I trust anything else on the site when nonsense like this goes on?

    I've started using the acronymn WKJM, since it's shorter to type...

    Are we to believe any of this (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by tarheel74 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:33:17 PM EST
    So this woman writes in to Josh Marshall who approvingly (together with Yglesias...Sullivan's satellite) cites her letter. Here are some things to ponder: did she really meet the Clintons and did they tell these things to her? I seriously doubt they would make a rookie mistake like that. Then there are those anonymous people working in their campaign? really who are they? names please.
    Seriously I think this whole thing is a smoke-screen, fabricated to take down Hillary. I mean it is one thing to support your candidate and it quite another to make excuses for his gaffes by making up stuff and acting so righteous about it along the way.
    I understand the frustration of Markos and Josh Marshall. They became "respectable bloggers" out of nowhere and they chose their candidate, Obama. He was to win it all in NH, the super Tuesday I, super Tuesday II, nothing happened. He won a bunch of red-state caucuses which even they doubt whether he will carry in the GE. He is behind in PA (a swing state) and as the primary goes on he is making more and more unforced errors, the Obama enthusiasm in the media and otherwise is waning, he is being exposed as just another ordinary pol. Clinton was supposed to roll over and play dead instead she wants to fight on till the convention and she still has people fighting for her and contributing towards her. Yes it is frustrating to them so they come up with these smears and attacks which they don't realize might one day might be used against her if she becomes the nominee. Sad fact is if anyone is tearing down the party it is "respectable bloggers" like them. When they say such things her supporters like me dig in deep and level the same charges against their candidate. You can't preach unity when in fact you are actively driving a wedge and driving people away with fabricated smears and slanders.

    This proves the strength of Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:45:57 PM EST
    charisma: just as with Bush, mesmerized adulation turns even educated people stupid.

    To you willfully obtuse Clintonites (1.00 / 1) (#53)
    by AdrianLesher on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:51:21 AM EST
    the point is that the mask Clinton wears during the campaign is just that. Behind closed doors, she has no problem "condescending" to the rubes. In public, she pays tribute by talking about how she's a real down-home gal who shoots guns and downs shots, not like that "liberal elitist" Barack Obama.

    I suppose this is "traditional politics," but it lacks substance and obscures real debate. Obama actually has a congruence to the positions he takes, not swerving from pose to pose as he moves from state to state and audience to audience.

    Those of us who are dismayed at Clinton aren't amazed to see this type of politics, we just expected better from Clinton. Unfortunately, Clinton runs like a Republican, and by doing so enforces right wing ideology.

    Hilarious (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:52:53 AM EST
    I'm glad to see that you weren't too... (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:00:22 AM EST
    ...willfully obstuse to see the humor. There's hope for you, my dear! :-)

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 7) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:03:01 AM EST
    It really was funny.

    The message is Hillary is a pol, and Obama is a God on Earth.

    Look, if they do not want to be called cultists, they need to stop acting like a cult.

    Parent

    More than hilarious - ludicrous and dishonest (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:12:42 AM EST
    "Obama actually has a congruence to the positions he takes, not swerving from pose to pose as he moves from state to state and audience to audience."

    ________

    Yes, he has a congruence alright - he is congruent in his constant triangulation and attempts to pander to everyone. First he's pro gay rights, but then he trots out McClurkin to appease the baptists. First he's pro-choice, but then he trots out some insults about pro-choicers to appease the pro-lifers. First he's post-racial, but then he trots out some racial insults about poor whites to make the upper class liberals chuckle.

    Give me a break. I don't suggest any politician, including Clinton, doesn't pander but it's absurd to portray Obama as consistent in his positions.

    Parent

    Don't take it seriously (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:14:32 AM EST
    if you do, the insanity is ratified.

    Parent
    OK, thanks (none / 0) (#88)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:25:10 AM EST
    good point.

    Parent
    Very astute (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by blogtopus on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:59:17 AM EST
    Hillary is a Politician - you win again!

    Obama is a politician too - and you'll lose because you haven't grasped that yet.

    Parent

    "mask" (none / 0) (#72)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:00:40 AM EST
    Don't you think this little incident and the Wright incident unmasked Mr. Obama?  That really he does not think much of most Americans and wears the unity mask for our pleasure?  

    Obama actually has a congruence to the positions he takes, not swerving from pose to pose as he moves from state to state and audience to audience.

    I guess the Okie doke speeches he used those with the SF rich folks as well.  What about the marijuana positions?  for them and against them.  

    Parent

    Is that the point? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:01:54 AM EST
    My gawd, then they are stupider than I thought.

    You could not have insulted them more.

    Parent

    BTD, how do I change my user name (none / 0) (#97)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:29:19 AM EST
    to Willfully Obtuse?

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#101)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:33:08 AM EST
    Did you fail to realize (none / 0) (#136)
    by Chisoxy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:37:25 PM EST
    These remarks werent given on the campaign trail. These were behind closed doors, where no press was allowed and if it wasnt for someone realizing how inappropriate they were, would never have been seen.

    You cannot credit someone for frankness and the other for sleeze, when his public stance was far from "congruent".

    Parent

    Whatever could possibly (none / 0) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:23:38 AM EST
    sell candidate Obama is what Josh feels is called for.  Next election cycle perhaps Dem pundits and bloggers would do better to just sell used cars......sigh....same stuff different day, what a long primary and it isn't because we've beaten the issues to death!!!

    Um, I guess he's never been in a mtg (none / 0) (#7)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:28:11 AM EST
    discussing target markets? Heh, I'm part of the "Creative Class" and have been doing it for 25yrs. We even have focus groups, lol!~

    I do find it interesting though, as she seems to do well with the 'target market'.

    Does he think we don't understand this theory? (none / 0) (#112)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:47:04 AM EST
    I would bet that most of Josh's readers have at least heard of Thomas Frank's book What's the Matter with Kansas, which lays out this theory.  You could not miss discussion of it in left blogostan or on the radio and TV when it came out after the 2004 election.  I myself own the book but heard Franks interviewed so much that I still haven't read it.  (Maybe I'll skim it this afternoon.)

    We get the point Obama was clumsily trying to make.  That is not the issue.  There is no doubt in my mind that Obama would never have used that language if he knew it would get out to the public.  He knows better than that.  He was telling the elite what they like to hear about the rubes.

    So glad you're all here (none / 0) (#122)
    by Truth Partisan on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:47:16 PM EST
    Thanks for sharing your very sane and well-reasoned thoughts.
    It's such a relief.

    Trusting government is not the issue (none / 0) (#129)
    by dianem on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:11:17 PM EST
    The problem is that Obama 1) equated religion, guns, and racism and 2) suggested that rural people were "clinging" to these ideas because of their bitterness with the government. It's not particularly controversial to suggest that Americans have problems with trusting the government. It's pretty sad when you suggest that they are only going to church because of it.

    Clinton's line was terrific (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by Cream City on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:27:30 PM EST
    and I bet we will hear it again this week in the debate -- and quoted in pulpits and used in church newsletters, which may matter more than other media:

    That we go to church not because -- or only when -- we are "materially poor" but because we are "spiritually rich."  

    It's a line that hums and resonates like an uplifting hymn, the sort that come to me when I most need them . . . but also just when, even in the worst of times, we are gifted with a glimmer of real hope.

    Parent

    scopkol's comments (none / 0) (#140)
    by isaac on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:48:07 PM EST
    require translation for us bitter, unenlightened working class rubes

    i'm surprised (none / 0) (#143)
    by isaac on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:11:34 PM EST
    bloomberg was so nice to obama after his precious j-e-t-s stadium was astroturfed by the rovian axelrod and cablevision