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Late Night: Blinded By the Light

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:36:34 PM EST
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Manfred Mann, 1976.

This is an open thread. See you all tomorrow.

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    Late Night: Blinded By the Light | 107 comments (107 topical)

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    It's starting to look like North Carolina... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Universal on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:39:20 PM EST
    ...could be Obama's firewall to keep him afloat between PA and IN.

    If anything changes that equation in NC, Obama could free-fall into the nomination abyss.

    Paging John Edwards... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:46:06 PM EST
    where is the courage...

    Parent
    That is what I was thinking (none / 0) (#8)
    by bjorn on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:53:22 PM EST
    But maybe he still wants to try again down the road and does not want to be identified with either candidate.

    Parent
    I'm guessing (none / 0) (#13)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:00:18 PM EST
    it's some sort of family pact he and Elizabeth made, since she's clearly ambivalent about Hillary and neither one of them is apparently all that crazy about Obama.  And I think he's probably eager to have a role in the general and/or some influence over the way the nominee campaigns.  If he chooses wrong now, he and his issues are likely to be totally sidelined.

    Oh, who knows.  He's had some sort of epiphany somewhere between his last run and this year, and I don't think it's possible to apply conventional political analysis to his choices anymore.

    I'd almost rather have Elizabeth endorse Hillary than John, at this point anyway!


    Parent

    If Hillary can win PA by double digits... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:46:01 PM EST
    ...she might be able to make NC competative. Remember, there hasn't been an election since the Wright controversy, so it will be interesting to see if Obama's high poll numbers in NC really hold up in the privacy of the election booth.

    Parent
    Doubt it (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:47:14 PM EST
    The demographics make it almost impossible. She could get it close: probably about 10 points.

    Parent
    That's true (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:52:47 PM EST


    Parent
    too far out to know (none / 0) (#15)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:03:28 PM EST
    I'm waiting to see how things look after Pennsylvania.

    Apparently Hillary was within 1 point in North Carolina around the time of the Jeremiah Wright flare up.  While that was a frozen moment in time several weeks ago, what it does show is that the potential to get many of those voters to swing her way does exist in the state.  And yes that was just a poll, but people are basing their current opinions/predications about NC on just polls as well.  So fair game.

    Parent

    It would require that Hillary cut into (none / 0) (#18)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:05:37 PM EST
    Obama's AA base. Not gonna happen.

    Parent
    Based on polls, you mean (none / 0) (#23)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:11:21 PM EST
    The white support for Clinton in NC can also be described as a base.  So your opinion/prediction is predicated on both of those poll statistics to be accurate.  And that was my point.  None of this is based on actual votes.

    Hillary is much more likely to outperform a poll among white voters than Obama is to undeperform among African Americans, imo.

    Bottom line: I think Clinton can outperform the polls with whites as we head forward.

    I follow this campaign very closely and that is my sense of what is going to happen.

    I have been correct on quite a few developments the past 3 months so I'll go with my own opinion on this one !boooya.

    Parent

    unofficial report (none / 0) (#33)
    by angie on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:31:29 PM EST
    I live in NC -- just today two Independents (who lean Rep.) in my office told me they are going to vote in the Dem primary, not the Rep. one (since that one doesn't matter) and vote for Hillary because of Obama's "guns & religion" comment.  My boss (a strong Rep.) actually told me he is going to switch his registration to Independent and vote in the Dem. primary for Hillary because of Obama's comments.  Now, of course, these 3 people are going to vote for McSame in the fall, NC is going red in the GE, and this isn't exactly a "poll," so take this for what its worth.

    Parent
    Diplo... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Universal on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:10:41 PM EST
    I wrote you a response in the last thread just apologizing for not getting back to your email. I'm really sorry. I don't use that account much and forgot to follow up.

    My bad. I'll get back to you soon, though. I'm going nuts this last week.

    :)

    Paul F. Villarreal AKA "Universal" AKA "RokSki"

    Parent

    Actually I think you did respond (none / 0) (#24)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:11:57 PM EST
    I stopped going to MYDD anyway.  Don't sweat it.

    Parent
    Speaking of PA (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:43:00 PM EST
    The Times has an excellent article on Ed Rendell's role in the campaign.

    There's also an associated video on the home page that I can't seem to watch.

    Rendell is so strange (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:56:30 PM EST
    The article describes him as essential in rounding up help for her on Obama's "bitter" comments, but yet he himself totally shrugged it off as nearly meaningless on TV.

    And I can't EVER forget the shock of his being the first one to call for Gore to quit in the 2000 Florida debacle when he was head of the DNC.  I've never seen any reporter ever really press him on why he did that.  He really opened the floodgates that got Gore to give up.

    Odd duck.


    Parent

    Indeed (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:00:17 PM EST
    His foot is attached permanently to his mouth. But he's also fairly good at most of the important aspects of politics.

    Let's just put it this way: PA hasn't had a Philly Governor since forever.

    Parent

    Part of the expense of a politician... (none / 0) (#19)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:07:10 PM EST
    ...like Rendell is that he occasionally puts his foot in his mouth, but the overall advantages he gains by being a "straight-shooter" and viewed as being sincere clearly makes up for it.

    Parent
    I don't know (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:20:39 AM EST
    if calling for Gore to get out can be fairly classified as "putting his foot in his mouth."  He doesn't seem to be somebody who just foams at the mouth and blurts stuff out, he seems to me (as he did that day) to say exactly what he means to say.

    Basically, I really don't trust the guy, though he is charming as hell in many ways, a throwback to the old-time pol types I grew up seeing.


    Parent

    x (none / 0) (#96)
    by Mary Mary on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:30:43 AM EST
    He's cheerfully and unapologetically an old-time pol, which is charming. Great at working the levers of government, which is good if you agree with his goals, not so good if you don't. I happen to think it's good, with the exception of the gambling (inevitable, though, IMO) and the privatization of the turnpike.

    It was so funny when he came to speak at a local Dem activist function. This is a farm area, he got questions about an important farm policy, and he sure did know all the facts. He was discomfited, though, about saying "manure."

    Parent

    I agree to varying degrees (none / 0) (#21)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:09:19 PM EST
    with that, depending on how close we are to a serious gaffe.

    Parent
    One thing that disturbs me about Rendell (none / 0) (#29)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:18:08 PM EST
    Chris Matthews likes him and asks reporters to go talk to Rendell as his #1 character witness.  (saw this in a recent magazine article)

    So obviously, there's something just not right about that.

    Eek.

    Parent

    I like Rendell quite a lot (none / 0) (#30)
    by andgarden on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:21:19 PM EST
    but he is imperfect. About as much as WJC, actually. (They get along famously, as it happens).

    Parent
    well if he is that powerful, then good for Hillary (none / 0) (#17)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:05:33 PM EST
    If Rendell managed to open "floodgates" that got Gore to give up, then I guess he's the right person to be helping Clinton behind the scenes as far as achieving a political goal is concerned anyway.

    Parent
    Ras Florida: Clinton over McCain! (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:43:46 PM EST
    ...while Obama gets beat by 15 points! With Florida, along with previous Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania polling, the general election electability arguement is now clearly in Clinton's favor.

    True (none / 0) (#16)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:04:37 PM EST
    but only we care.  The DNC doesn't care.

    Parent
    Not so sure... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:15:44 PM EST
    ...I have a feeling when SUSA does another all 50 states polling effort, (which they haven't done since pre-Wright) the state-by-state picture will not be pretty for Obama.

    Parent
    Good (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Trickster on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:59:19 PM EST
    I like the Manfred Mann version best.

    Or, as a friend from college used (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Joelarama on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:02:48 PM EST
    to say, "I like the douche version better than the Springsteen one."

    Parent
    Duh.... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:31:56 AM EST
    That is what I always thought.

    Parent
    Speaking of seeing the light, some women Obama (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by jawbone on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:15:52 PM EST
    supporters seem to be taking a second look--and are getting put off a bit at the way the boiz are treating Obama and women.

    From a comment by amberglow at Corrente, this is from Salon.

    One woman talks about a faraway glazed look that comes into the eyes of some of Obama's male supporters. However, I've seem that look in women's eyes as well. Still, very interesting.

    I had to stop reading at this point: (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:29:58 PM EST
    There are the pissed-off second-wave feminists, uptight and out of touch, howling as their dream of seeing a woman in the Oval Office fades.


    Parent
    It's actually a good story... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Dawn Davenport on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:46:13 PM EST
    and worth reading through to the end, if you can get past the parts about us ancient second-wavers being meddlesome old biddies. :) Her point is that the rampant misogyny emanating from Obama supporters and media cheerleaders is giving 3rd-wavers a "Hmmm..." moment.

    The author is the same one who wrote the Salon piece after NH that took Chris Matthews to the woodshed, and blamed him in part for Obama's loss in that state.

    Parent

    Thanks! Will read over morning (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:37:55 AM EST
    coffee then :) I hit that sentence, and I guess my overload from this election was reached . . . a girl can only take so much of the crap we've been dished the past few months.

    Some of the younger ones won't realize our reality for a few years. Ya know, after banging their head against the wall a few times, heh. Glad ot hear some are starting to go hmmm . . .

    Parent

    I'm going to give us a pat on the back... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:14:07 AM EST
    ...because we fought for our rights when we were still cute young things. The thing that a lot of these young women lack now, I think, is the deep kind of sisterhood support that we had in our youth over equality. Oh, I know that they have friendships, but when I was in college we didn't have to hide our reservations about sexism. We called people out on it. But of course we were fighting against an unfairness that was much more apparent.

    Parent
    Hey, speak for yourself! (none / 0) (#86)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:27:20 AM EST
    we fought for our rights when we were still cute young things.

    I'm still fighting and I'm still cute as a button, dagnabbit!

    Parent

    LOL Kathy but.... (none / 0) (#87)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:34:00 AM EST
    ..try as I might I can't lay claim to "young" anymore.

    Parent
    I try not to cling to it too much (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:39:52 AM EST
    because, sometimes, when I'm feeling down, it makes me bitter.

    Parent
    classic (5.00 / 9) (#37)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:07:04 AM EST
    Sexism is still acceptable in America.
    I see it every day.
    I've seen it every day since I was in 4th grade. That was 1955. Then it was accepted as a God given truth. Today it's simply ignored.
    Subtle, yes... devastating? Yes!
    Women are not allowed to be angry Women and Anger
    So when the creeps attack we're supposed to do what? Be passive? Yes! The Aggressive Male versus the Passive Female: An Analysis of Differentials in Role Portrayal

    Listen guys... I have really experienced this first hand.
    I have tried to be a role model for my daughter and my grandchildren. At the age of 27, a highschool dropout and a single mother, I began my college career as a physics major. It was the bravest thing I have ever done, and I'm proud of it. One instructer told me to "go home and take care of my husband"!  I was one of 3 females to earn a BS in Physics at my university the year I graduated. Kudos that I got some pretty outstanding help by way of financial aid and those who dispense it.

    HRC is my hero. She embodies everything I was trying to teach my daughter. I am proud of her! This is deeply personal to me. Obama mocking HRC is deeply offensive to me.


    Parent

    Congratulations, nellre! (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by clio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:59:16 AM EST
    That's an impressive and inspiring story.

    Only women who have dared to break out of "traditional" roles get put down the way you were so when women who have managed to stay under the MCP radar say they've never experienced discrimination it's because they haven't threatened the system.

    That's what Hillary's doing: threatening the the system; bidding to break the ultimate glass ceiling and become the most powerful person in the world.   The boyz are scared limp.

    I have my differences with Senator C, and Edwards was my first choice because of those differences, but like you I admire her profoundly and resent like Hell the non-stop and unbelievably crude misogyny to which she has been constantly subjected.  The more the boyz attack her the madder I, my mother, and all our friends, get.

    With his disparaging remarks, both blatant and subtle, about Senator C. Obama has revealed himself as a sexist again and again.  It's easy to believe that he also feels superior to us "little people" in the little towns. He didn't misspeak. It was a Freudian slip.  He clearly thinks he's grown beyond the rest of us and become part of the elite, whoever they are.

    I'd never vote for McCain, but if Obama's the nominee I'm going to have to hold my nose in the voting booth, and even then I'm not sure I'll be able to do it.  

    Parent

    What's the matter, y'all? (5.00 / 0) (#97)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:33:04 AM EST
    You feeling bad about the pantsuit comments, the fat ankle and ass comments, the b*ch and c*t comments, the calculating, ambitious, and conniving comments?

    Why, y'all are just too PC, you've got no sense of humor, and you're strident, overly sensitive feminazis I guess. Besides, Hillary is rich and voted for the war authorization so she obviously deserves to be ridiculed and demeaned - it's not that all women deserve this kind of langugage, but with this particular one, it's totally understandable.

    Did I mention you seem humorless and unable to take a joke?

    :)

    Parent

    Thanks so much (none / 0) (#58)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:13:24 AM EST
    You nailed it. It's only when we try to break that "glass ceiling" that anybody notices.

    Parent
    And the glass ceiling was...... (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:37:19 AM EST
    ....so much lower in the 60s and 70s. I'm glad that my daughter didn't have to go through what I did, but on the other hand, I think she would have handled that kind of overt sexism better than she is handling the type of pressure that young women feel today. She's a fighter and an iconoclast, and she always fights hard for the underdog, but she's just incapable of seeing herself as the person that's being kept down. When she is discriminated against, which she was in a couple of instances going through school, she tended to think that it was because she did something wrong and was embarassed if I made a big deal about it with authorities. Sigh.

    Parent
    dang! I missed a sister's night! (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:38:59 AM EST
    When my grandmother divorced my roving grandpa, even though she had had a good job for fifteen years, she couldn't get a home loan or a car loan without my great grandfather co-signing with her.  She could not even have her own checking account without my great grandpa's name being on the checks, too, because no one would take them in town.

    This was in 1965 in small town Georgia.  This wasn't back during the stoneage.

    Recently, my 11 year old niece was wearing tie-dyed shirts and talking about how she wished she was a hippy in the 70s, and I told her to go back and read some popular fiction from that time and watch some of the more popular movies, because it was a great time if you were a man, but women were still second class citizens.  She did what I said (I know, my sister-in-law was shocked, too) and told me, "I take it back.  I wouldn't want to be a woman back then."  (She said more, but she's quite the potty mouth so I won't repeat it here)  She had no idea that the women's rights movement was happening at the same time.  She thought all that stuff had happened in the 1920s or more distant history.  You know, because we've come so far.

    I suppose that all those battles feminists (like Clinton-both of them) fought in the sixties and seventies give young women today the luxury of not worrying about women's rights, but I think as they grow older and look around, they'll see that there are new battles, and the war still rages on.

    Injustice never cuts so sharply as when you're the one bleeding.

    Parent

    Imagine (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:52:30 AM EST
    1954 ANYWHERE!

    Parent
    Even (none / 0) (#105)
    by nemo52 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:14:42 PM EST
    1972!

    Parent
    I never wax nostalgic (none / 0) (#103)
    by misspeach2008 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:44:23 PM EST
    about being one of the first women in an all male college in the late sixties-early seventies.  Although I got a great education, including how to negotiate with the Old Boy Network, it left permanent scars. I think I became a Hillary Clinton supporter because I watch her take all of the humiliation that was private for us so publicly and still go back at it the next day. It's not so easy being "first".

    Parent
    Thanks for the links! (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:08:30 AM EST
    I tried taking wood shop in 8th grade (35yrs ago). OOPS! Ended back in Home Ec. Hah! I had been cooking, cleaning and sewing since about 8yrs old. And that wasn't cookie baking cooking. But as an adult, I did have my studio with one of those nice big red tool chests, knew how to use power tools etc and even tried my hand at welding. Hopefully we've progressed enough that they aren't setting back young artists/sculptures no matter the gender.  I was stubborn and had a 'well I'll show you attitude', thankfully. I did manage to get out of taking the required typing classes. I made it very clear I wasn't going to be "typing for some damn man" when I grew up. Cheeky lil' thing, wasn't I, lol!~

    This has gotten much more personal for me than I ever thought it would. It's amazing what you 'soldier' through over the years and don't think too hard on as you try and keep going forward. I've had 4 bosses very similar to Obama (among other things over the years), which didn't really strike me until the primaries wore on. I saw some red flags, but they are flapping wildly now. Watching HRC campaigning for him, if she doesn't get the nom, will be very hard. I really don't want to see her as his VP either.

    I'm damn proud of her also! She' been there, done that and has just got 'IT'. I'm  also proud of you. You made it possible for me and others. Every woman that walked their path before me/us, widened our path and gave us more of a voice. Because of women like you and HRC, women like me could see that we didn't have to follow a path, that in our gut, we knew was wrong for us. We had a choice.

    Parent

    wow (none / 0) (#60)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:16:43 AM EST
    tears in my eyes. Thanks!

    Parent
    Do you think that it is something (none / 0) (#64)
    by MaxUS on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:30:33 AM EST
    in our culture that leads daughters to question the experience of their mother more than sons do of their father?

    I know I'm speaking generally, but it seems that movies and literature are riddled with daughters coming to appreciate their mother's experience and wisdom rather late in the game, usually after experiencing mistreatment of some kind at the hands of the guy her mother warned against.

    Male coming of age stories are very different from female coming of age stories.

    Of course, I'm a guy so I don't know much about the subject except to ask the question of women.

    Parent

    Max, I can only speak for me... (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:50:22 AM EST
    ...but I think that I made one mistake with my daughter...and that was not sharing enough of my struggle with her, trying to be too much the invisible supportive mother rather than a fully formed and flawed person. I was, in a way, trying to do homage to an idea that my life only really began when my children were born because I loved them that  much. My daughter actually had always tried to get me to talk about myself and what I experienced in the 60s and 70s, because she is fascinated with that period and has studied it extensively, but for some reason I was reluctant to open up..didn't want to encourage her to do some of the risky things I did in my youth, wanted to keep her from living my mistakes. So now there's a lot about me that she simply doesn't know and I think I'm going to have to find a way to tell her and fill out the picture.

    I have a son too, and we are very close but our relationship is very different. It's kind of a heart and soul thing, with my daughter occupying my soul...and I have a lot more conflict with my soul than with my heart.

    Parent

    mother/daughter (none / 0) (#92)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:48:46 AM EST
    relationships are probably the most complicated ones on earth.  My friends who have male children say it is just easier.  I have no idea why this is-something primal and genetic, I guess, that makes us not trust each other.

    (and I ADORE power tools!  Learning to TIG weld was one of the happiest weeks of my life!)

    Parent

    Good for you (none / 0) (#91)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:46:32 AM EST
    on the physics degree!  After my husband became a prof in '65, he was a pushover for female physics students.  (On the home front, it was still a battle--but I was the last one standing.)

    Parent
    Agreed, nyc -- that part is awful but seems (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:20:30 AM EST
    almost requisite for the younger readers.  But -- I read this yesterday and have thought about it more since, as it is provocative -- as dawn says, it is worth reading to the end.

    I wonder if we will be seeing, as we did in the earlier 19th century reform movements and again in the 1960s civil rights and antiwar movements, that the so-called "good guys" are the ones whose behaviors will awaken a generation of young women again -- a generation that thinks it is post-feminist and past all that need for howling (I don't recall howling! with me, watch out for when my voice drops :-).  I wonder if we will see them come into the movement and help to revive the ERA.

    And wouldn't it be interesting if, along with Clinton, we had Obama boyz and media boyz and more to thank for it, too?  That always has been the way in women's history, that movements do not come out of nowhere, because we're busy and have a lot to do . . . until we get angry about treatment.

    And then we get organized.  I never have liked the advice to not get mad, get even.  It is not a dichotomy than man need abide by.  And women or men, we only have made progress when we get mad and get even.  And the grrrlz are getting angry, this says, although they can't quite yet figure out why.  Been there, done that, and it's being done to a younger generation again.

    Anyway, it has been interesting to think that even (gasp, dare I say it) we lose this battle for Clinton, we may see more battles in a larger war because of this campaign.  I ponder about that and more from this pivotal campaign in many ways.

    Parent

    I wonder (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:37:57 AM EST
    if these young women were initially drawn into the Obama camp along with their boyfriends? The writer of the article repeatedly said "couldn't quite put her finger on it," referring to the 'glazed look at the men's eyes when in Obama's presence.  Is it possible they are jealous of the adoration that Obama evokes from their boyfriends? Is it a kind of crush? Or perhaps it is just sexism and the young women suspect that the same attitude applies to them (I remember it was also stated that they couldn';t really point to any one sexist statement made by the guys. This is really weird.

    But on a totally different topic:  Has Obama lost a lot of weight since he started campaigning?  He does look tired and his face looks gaunt.  Usually politicians complain of putting on weight because of the many dinners/lunches they have to attend on the campaign trail.  But he does look thinner to me in the latest videos.

    Parent

    yes, I think he has lost wieght (none / 0) (#67)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:55:41 AM EST
    he may have mentioned it, iirc. I think he's like I am, get busy, end up thinner. Usually, just a few pounds show because you don't have a lot to start with.

    Parent
    Well, it already worked with me (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by angie on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:55:41 AM EST
    I just turned 39 two days ago, and I'm a professional woman, so I think I fit into the upper end of the "third wave" the article is talking about (and yes, it is worth it to read to the end). When this campaign started, when all the Democratic nominees were in, I thought the last person I wanted to get the nomination was Hillary -- I don't know why -- just a vague "oh, not again with the Clintons." But as the campaign progressed -- first with the Iron My Shirt idiot, then the Citizens United Not Timid bs, the MSM's positive delight in "burying" her before NH, the sexist comments from Obama and his supporters not only going unchecked, but actually encouraged, I woke up.  Even when I was still not sure who I was supporting, I was defending her because of the attacks -- John Edwards in particular broke my heart with his comments after her emotional moment in the NH diner. Soon, I realized that for all my previous assumptions about women's rights (grateful to the women who went before me who pave dthe way, but at the same time thinking those battles were over and taking them a little for granted) were wrong. My mom put it the best to me -- this election proves women have rights only as long as they stay in the kitchen, not if they are running for President.  So, now I proudly call myself a feminist. To be fair, I also realized, as I started paying more attention after NH, that Hillary is the best candidate to ever run for President in my memory.  At the same time, however, I can also proudly say that I am not voting for her because she is a woman, but because I am.  

    Parent
    Beautiful, angie. Just beautiful. (none / 0) (#53)
    by clio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:04:36 AM EST


    Parent
    Great! (none / 0) (#57)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:11:20 AM EST
    I think it is time for the women to give out the WHISTLE!  Not just a dog whistle--an unmistakable whistle perhaps even a roar. It is time to point out that women who are give birth to and raise leaders are themselves leaders--perhaps even more so.  

    Parent
    Dog whistles are ok, as long as (none / 0) (#65)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:41:36 AM EST
    they are B*tch whistles ;)

    *funny side note: I designed some graphics to raise money for animal rescue and did a B*tch series for dog folks. Gotta tell ya, the Alphs-B*tch graphics have a wonderful effect on those men on the subway that invade your space. And they have no clue what it means for the most part, lol! ;) This 110lb woman gets a big kick out of it!


    Parent

    No... (none / 0) (#69)
    by Alec82 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:02:59 AM EST
    ...this is not OK.  This is not admirable.  This is not what feminism is about.  This is not the way to approach elections.  

     The idea that you vote on candidates on the basis of gender or race is something that should be relegated to the trashbin of history, along with other equally antiquated conservative ideals.  

     In 2007, I explained to my peers (virtually all fans of Senator Obama) why I was planning on voting for Senator Clinton.  This voter wasn't bitter about economic issues (although I was about social issues and the cowardly stances of the Democratic Party).  But you know what I was especially bitter about? Iraq.  Horribly bitter.  But even I was willing to forgive Senator Clinton on this.  And yes, forgiveness is the appropriate term.  Senator Clinton's supporters are fond of saying that Senator Obama was not in the senate, and his likely vote is therefore unknown.  I take a different stance: Those who were in the Senate, who voted for the Iraq war, must intelligently, coherently and believably explain, rationalize, and justify their vote.  The Iraq war is their burden to bear.

     Finally, sexism did not hurt Senator Clinton in the way some supporters imagine.  To persist in this habit of decrying support for Obama as support of misogyny is to persist in an extremely alienating campaign technique.  It will not win her votes in the GE, and it will not excuse President Clinton's gaffe in SC.  I am sorry, but it will not.  It will also not excuse her decision to unleash a former president on her behalf.  

    Parent

    It's not just about her (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by LoisInCo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:35:54 AM EST
    Finally, sexism did not hurt Senator Clinton in the way some supporters imagine.

    It's about how it makes her supporters feel.

    To persist in this habit of decrying support for Obama as support of misogyny is to persist in an extremely alienating campaign technique.

    To persist in denying any misogyny is equally alienating.

    It will also not excuse her decision to unleash a former president on her behalf.  

    No excuse needed. If the actions of the former President offend YOU, then you have the right to not vote for his wife. If Obama and or his wife and or his supporters offend me or any other person they also have an equal right to refuse to vote for him.

    Parent

    What is upsetting to me (5.00 / 0) (#73)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:43:16 AM EST
    about Sen. Obama's  "bitter/cling" comment is not only what he said but where and how it was said.  This was a fundraiser with a group of very wealthy people in "billionaire's row" in San Francisco; a comment not for public consumption; not generated laughter from the group.  It was a demeaning comment about a "small town people, poor people (relative to the group he was with).  As a person of color, I think that Barack demeaned himself even more because the image I had in mind was that of a distinguished person of color performing for these super rich for money.  It felt like a betrayal; to be made an object of laughter, by one who has claimed to be one of you, because he wants to be given money.  It is sickening.

    It is very upsetting to me.

    Parent

    way to go, Lois (5.00 / 0) (#94)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:55:02 AM EST
    I think some young women have seen their boyfriends or significant others railing against Clinton, calling her every horrible name in the book, and thought, "what does he say about me behind closed doors?"

    I've had those moments, where I've heard a male friend say something just awful about his wife, and thought the same thing.  And it's made me not want to be friends with them anymore.

    Parent

    Tell that to the 92% or so of the AA vote (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:18:15 AM EST
    for Obama. It's not going to happen in our lifetime or Rev. Wright's lifetime.  This election should be treated by itself according to the dynamics at work.  If women do not stand up as a group now, when?  When the rights of one are violated because of her gender, then all who are of that gender are also violated.  This is a question of priorities.  By your own logic, people like Sen. Kerry should not be "unleashed" to campaign for Obama, because he is one of those Senators who voted for it. Pres. Clinton was a good president.  His personal error, never affected his job as president.  Ken Starr proved that. Sen. Obama is very wrong, and unjust to lump Pres. Clinton with the failures of the Bush Administration.  Sen. Clinton did not make the "Bitter/Cling" statement.  Barack did and he should be held accountable for that.  Unfortunately, to many of us, our only way to make him accountable is to vote against.

    You are really not talking about principles here.  You are simply concerned that if women should wake up and collectively fight for their rights, Obama would lose; so will McCain.  And if the criteria is on knowledge, experience, and ability to get things done, Hillary would be the runaway nominee and president elect.  So please, spare me the preaching.

    Parent

    Um, did you pay attention to what I said? (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by angie on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:00:15 AM EST
    I specifically said (1) She is the best candidate to ever run for President in my lifetime -- not just this year; and (2) I'm not voting for her NOT because she is a woman, but because I am.  Now, you can think whatever you want about me, but you cannot tell me that I have no right to choose whom I support based on WHO I AM.  It is patronizing and demeaning.  I will say it again -- she is the best candidate to ever run for President in my lifetime -- her "gender" got me to pay more attention to her then I would have, and I'm glad I did, because I rediscovered a lot about myself and this country.  And, ultimately, I don't need your permission or condescension about my vote.

    Parent
    I apologize (none / 0) (#85)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:09:05 AM EST
    for the wrong placement of my response.  It was intended for Alec82.  Again, sorry.

    Parent
    speaking from SC (5.00 / 0) (#88)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:34:01 AM EST
    I am wondering if I should 'do' lunch with my friend who sees it from the 'other' side.  It must be tearing to choose between race and gender.  For many years women  kept black families intact--women who had to be far stronger than most of 'us.' I Joined forces with them to get education and some rights for our handicapped shildren. I became active in integration on the town/county level--for rights regardless of color, handicaps, and even gender.

    I AM second or third or fourth wave feminist.  There were the ones way back, and then there was the first generation who went to college and got decent jobs.  They had to watch their daughters choose family over jobs after WWII (gov/t propaganda, really).  I battled it out on a 'co-ed' campus, but then joined the battle for the rights of the handicapped instead.  

    As for the way to approach elections. I regret that Obama chose to run before his on-the-job training was anywhere near complete.  He demonstrates that every day now.  The sexism aspect just ices the cake for me.  My 'strong' friend in WA repeats the lies about Clinton to me; I shall not soon forget those lies and smears!  So beware: the metaphorical march has begun.

    Parent

    Well said! (none / 0) (#106)
    by nemo52 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:17:25 PM EST
    As an "old biddy' second-waver, welcome to the movement!

    Parent
    Well said! (none / 0) (#107)
    by nemo52 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:17:42 PM EST
    As an "old biddy' second-waver, welcome to the movement!

    Parent
    Heh, I have been wondering lately if . . . (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:28:32 AM EST
    another movement is on the way. And it's not the one Obama is leading. "Rise, Hillary, Rise" may end up being bigger than we think. Whether she wins or loses, she's fought hard and in doing so, the top has ripped off the can o' worms, imo.

    Some days I'm mad enough to want to start the movement myself. I doubt I'm the only one that feels that way. As maddening as it is right now, we may have to thank them for being so damn blatant (and accepting) of this behavior. Nothing like a good slap in the face to get ya off yer bum and get motivated again. I think the younger generation, that doesn't see it now, will wake up along the way. And hopefully join in. If they don't react to having their gender insulted, they should react to having their intelligence insulted, imo.

    Heh, yeah, I may be busy, but I'm not THAT busy ;)

    Great post. Thanks! Now I need to take my b*tch for a walk and clear the head for sleep. ;)

    {wakes up sleeping dalmatian to her dismay}

    Parent

    The problem is how do we (none / 0) (#104)
    by misspeach2008 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:57:55 PM EST
    get the younger women to see that all is not well?  When I was working in engineering firms, I would look through the resumes for young women and be totally obnoxious until they at least got an interview. If they got hired, I would tell them they now needed to see that two more women got job offers.  They were surprised to find out that I often had retrieved their resumes from the trash. They didn't seem to see the need to reach down and pull other women up with them. I'm tired of fighting the battle for them without any help from them.

    Parent
    Extortion (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by nellre on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:30:15 PM EST
    Obama has turned me off big time with his lies about HRC's stand on NAFTA to try to counter clinggate,  and his "the best defense is good offense" (which is also offensive to me) approach to the fact he will not recognize how offensive his clinging words were.
    I don't want to vote for him. Once I would have been happy to, but no more! His attacks seem very right wing to me these last few days. Am I alone?
    But SCOTUS?
    But Iraq?
    But but but...
    What are we to do? I feel blackmailed!

    Nellre, we don't (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:27:37 AM EST
    have to decide now what we're going to do in November if Obama is the nominee. I've been going back and forth very seriously on it since "cling-gate," which really just tore it for me totally.  But then I realized there's so much more that can happen between now and then, I have no idea how I'll feel then and I don't have to work it out in advance.  I can just wait for it and decide when we get there.

    My state (Vermont) is almost certainly going to vote Dem., so I expect I'll have the luxury of casting a (probably very lonely) protest vote.  But it's important to me who I vote for, even if it doesn't affect the end result.

    So I'm just going to wait.


    Parent

    Well I'm CA (none / 0) (#47)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:45:26 AM EST
    So either way we're blue.
    But to vote for somebody who has so misrepresented himself, over just standing down?
    I didn't think for a second I'd do that until Obama's latest attacks... and maybe I won't... but I am tempted. Sorely tempted.

    Parent
    I am in Colorado (none / 0) (#56)
    by LoisInCo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:10:02 AM EST
    and my vote goes 3rd party if Obama gets the nomination. But I AM voting Dem for the entire down ticket.

    Parent
    I am in California (none / 0) (#59)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:15:04 AM EST
    and of the same idea as you, Lois.

    Parent
    I'm in NY, writing in HRC. (none / 0) (#66)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:50:04 AM EST


    Parent
    Another from the Golden State (none / 0) (#74)
    by rghojai on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:05:40 AM EST
    Was strongly leaning Obama, made a 100-mi. r/t to hear/see him in Oakland on St. Pat's Day '07, was impressed... and got less and less impressed as time went on.

    He's done a lot which struck me as extremely hypocritical, told lies or damn close to them via word games, had his share of "misspoke moments"--the nuke bill he "got passed" and talk of his anti-war speech "in a high-stakes Senate campaign" among them--and he's often not so good when not reading from a teleprompter. His post-Texas moment of being flummoxed at a brief press conference (something along the lines of, "That was like eight questions" and sayanora was an embarrassment for any serious candidate. Did I mention he's on tape saying he would not vote to fund the war?

    Beyond that, I've yet to come across anything significant he's accomplished or anything hard he's fought for (even if it was a losing fight).

    I voted HRC in the primary, I've come to think Obama's a joke and if he's the nominee, I will vote third party in the general.

    Parent

    Not time yet to despair (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:51:55 AM EST
    Things are finally beginning to look up for Hillary. We all know that the boiz have stacked the deck against her but that should make her victory even greater.  She'll make a great president.  The Clintons know how to win presidential elections and the republicans know that only too well.  Which is why they are working so hard to make it Obama to face McCain.  As Bill said, if Hillary wins Pennsylvania and Indiana, she will most probably have the nomination.  And Bill also said early in the campaign that winning the nomination will be harder for Hillary than the general election.  So let's hope for the best in Pennsylvania, Indiana, West Virginia, Kentucky, Puerto Rico, Oregon and N. Carolina.  Once she surpasses Obama in the popular votes without Florida and Michigan, then comes close in the pledged delegates, then she'll have the nomination by the Convention vote.  This is pretty exciting.

    Parent
    not to worry-- (none / 0) (#44)
    by Arcadianwind on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:36:31 AM EST
    PA and Indiana and West Virginia will ease our pain....

    Parent
    Ah, memories (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by clio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:16:17 AM EST
    Years, many years, ago went to see Manfred on tour.  Not sure how popular the band was at the time, but past their peak, I think.

    I do vividly remember that they played in a very large school gym using huge speakers and amplifiers suitable for an open amphitheater, and the music was so loud it was acutely painful.

    The only song I recognized was "Blinded by the Light."  Even that was so distorted by the echoes and the volume that it initially didn't sound familiar, and the friend who had accompanied me and I realized long before the concert ended that at 28 or so we were w-a-y too old for the scene.

    Obviously hadn't grasped, having spent most of our twenties in various academic programs, that while we were  studying the world was passing us by.  Went out to dinner afterwards feeling positively decrepit.

    Now, having advanced much further into decrepitude, it's funny, but at the time it was dispiriting.
    Very.

    If any of you Hillary supporters would like to (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:30:07 AM EST
    write diaries here, send me an email and I'll change your user status to diarist.

    I nominate Cream! (none / 0) (#95)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:01:26 AM EST
    And, on a personal note, Jeralyn (and BTD, who may or may not still be miffed at us) thank you so much for making TL not just a safe place for Clinton supporters, but a safe place for women.  It's such a relief to come here and know I'm not going to see all the bashing and insulting and denigrating that goes on elsewhere.

    Parent
    I nominate Cream and You Kathy! (none / 0) (#100)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:06:21 AM EST


    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#102)
    by Kathy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:39:06 AM EST
    Thank you, but it's much easier to just let others do the heavy lifting and then chime in with my little nuggets of wisdom!

    Parent
    At the Faith & Compassion forum (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:30:09 AM EST
    the other night, Hillary mentioned Esther as someone she admired of the biblical personalities.  That, she is.  However, in reading the book of Esther, I am really more fascinated by the queen that she replaced--Queen Vashti and why this beautiful woman was replaced.  According to the bible, when King Artaxerxes once gave a banquet for all his officials and vassal kings in his opulent palace in the capital, in the last week of the celebration, when his guests (all men) were quite inebriated, Artaxerxes commanded his eunuch to bring Queen Vashti to the celebration so that all could admire her beauty.  Queen Vashti refused.  The bible is silent as to her reasons.  My guess is that she did not want to be paraded in front of all the drunk men even if they were all royals.  The men offered their opinion as to the queen's punishment (replacement) because they said that what she has done is an offense not only against the king but against all husbands.  Because if word of what she did reached the wives in the kingdom, the wives may no longer be obedient to their husbands. (honest, it is so written)  So a search for her replacement was proclaimed and the rest is what is related in Esther.

    I thought this was a fascinating bit of gender discrimination even then.

    Ah, a wonderful song from (none / 0) (#9)
    by Joelarama on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 10:55:15 PM EST
    childhood.  Makes me want to put in the DVD of Dazed and Confused , but I have to get to bed.

    8 tracks and 71 Ford Torino (none / 0) (#42)
    by surrealone on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:28:55 AM EST
     good time ... click...click.. the track change in the middle of the song :)

    Parent
    BREAKING: Hillary may pick up 2 NJ superd's!! (none / 0) (#20)
    by Universal on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:09:17 PM EST
    Just caught this story and wrote it up fast over at my site:

    http://www.villarrealsports.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=379

    It appears the worm has turned in earnest. North Carolina could be a lot more important to Obama than many thought.

    Let's worry about Pennsylvania first! (none / 0) (#25)
    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:13:49 PM EST
    The worm will be comatose if Obama wins Pennsylvania and nothing after it will matter.

    I will worry and not take PA for granted until I see the checkmark next to Hillary's name and the frown on Keith Olbermann's face.

    Parent

    A poster on mydd... (none / 0) (#34)
    by Dawn Davenport on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:42:31 PM EST
    ...said that two superdelegates from PA are supposed to announce they're switching from Obama to Clinton tomorrow, fwiw.

    I know, it's just a rumor, but I'm still waiting on those 50 supers for O that were gonna be "rolled out" after March 4.

    Parent

    link (none / 0) (#49)
    by nell on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:52:45 AM EST
    to mydd write-up, pleasE. thanks.

    Parent
    Honestly, I don't even remember the thread... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:07:58 AM EST
    ...or the poster. I guess we'll see by tomorrow whether it's true. :)

    Parent
    Frown on (none / 0) (#101)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:09:19 AM EST
    Olbermann's face to be followed by explanation of why her "win" wasn't big enough. Shills like Olbermann don't give up just cause they're wrong so often.  

    Parent
    Does anyone know what the... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Exeter on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:17:16 PM EST
    deal is with add-on super delegates?

    Parent
    Digg (none / 0) (#36)
    by lyzurgyk on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:46:21 PM EST

    Does anybody else find themselves waiting on Digg.com when loading TalkLeft?   I do all the time.  

    Dump the Digg links until they can handle the traffic.

    Yes! (none / 0) (#80)
    by Joan in VA on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:32:48 AM EST


    Parent
    Dump it if you can (none / 0) (#83)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:58:24 AM EST
    One thing helps me, but it is counterintuitive.  Everytime I need to go from one screen to another, I go back to my bookmark and enter the site again.  It seems to go faster than waiting for a screen to go backwards.  (may have terms wrong)

    Parent
    Digg links (none / 0) (#98)
    by jmacWA on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:50:45 AM EST
    I have noticed extremely slow response on one of my machines for TL.  It does seem to get hung on the Digg links, but when I switched to reading TL via the feed on that machine, I no longer had the slow response.  Could just be coincidence, but you might want to give it a try.

    Parent
    we just changed the digg link (none / 0) (#99)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:31:41 AM EST
    it should not be hanging now. Let me know if you still have problems.

    Parent
    MoveOn.org (none / 0) (#52)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:03:55 AM EST
    The sent me a survey form (I was a member) which I refused to participate in (too many personal info required). I unsubscribed myself which sent me to a last plea to stay.  They had a questionaire that requested info on reason for unsubscribing.  I was surprised to find that they included in the pull-down menu:  "endorsement of Barack Obama" which I of course checked.  But it looks like many other members opted out for that reason which is why they provided it, I supposed for speed.

    Gotta Wonder How Many Members They Lost (none / 0) (#79)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:23:37 AM EST
    over their endorsement of Obama. I know I unsubscribed over the endorsement.  Bad move on their part IMO. Will hurt them even more if Obama wins the nomination and loses the GE in a year when a Dem should have been a shoo in for the WH.

    Parent
    I'm One (none / 0) (#108)
    by nemo52 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:21:17 PM EST
    I unsubbed a while ago, and gave the endorsement of Obama as a reason.

    Parent
    I'd like to see HRC as our candidate (none / 0) (#61)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:25:54 AM EST
    So, let's make it happen ok?
    Random thought: (none / 0) (#68)
    by LoisInCo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:58:13 AM EST
    I had the factor on ( don't yell its the late night repeat and I have seen EVERY  episode of Forensics Files 20 times) and Billo is still pushing the fact that Obama said he would be on the show and hasn't yet. Does anyone else find it odd that a man who claims he will personally meet with our national enemies without pre-conditions can't seem to get the cojones to meet with an American enemy? I just find that odd.

    Obama will meet with Bill-O (none / 0) (#72)
    by Fabian on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:32:35 AM EST
    When MI and FL get their delegates seated.....

    Parent
    I do not think the quotes you cited (none / 0) (#78)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:21:12 AM EST
    "saves" him.  It is a precursor to his subsequent 'bitter/cling' statement.  He is still designating church going and hunting as 'pursuits' or the consequence of lack of employment.  The condescension is already there.  It is not something that just happened.

    Late Night: Blinded By the Light | 107 comments (107 topical)

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