home

Finally Someone Worries About Alienating Women Voters

By Big Tent Democrat

Via Kevin Drum, an expression of concern about alienating women:

Not so long ago, it was possıble for women, particularly young women, to share in the popular illusion that we were living in a postfeminist moment. . . . Then Hillary Clinton declared her candidacy, and the sexism in America, long lying dormant, like some feral, tranquilized animal, yawned and revealed itself. Even those of us who didn’t usually concern ourselves with gender-centric matters began to realize that when it comes to women, we are not post-anything.

The egregious and by now familiar potshots are too numerous (and tiresome) to recount. A greatest-hits selection provides a measure of the misogyny . . . It was hardly a revelation to learn that sexism lived in the minds and hearts of right-wing crackpots and Internet nut-jobs, but it was something of a surprise to discover it flourished among members of the news media. The frat boys at MSNBC portrayed Clinton as a castrating scold, with Tucker Carlson commenting, “Every time I hear Hillary Clinton speak, I involuntarily cross my legs,” and Chris Matthews calling her male endorsers “castratos in the eunuch chorus.” . . .

Will the "creative class" notice? Do not hold your breath.

< SUSA KY Poll: Clinton By 36 | The Inevitable Narrative >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Actually. . . (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:13:17 PM EST
    that's the creative class you're quoting!

    I think of them as (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:14:10 PM EST
    frat boys myself.

    Parent
    You called it!!!! (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:18:59 PM EST
    based on this I forgive your Obama affection.  Libertarian frat boys.  

    Parent
    The Boys on the Left (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:14:54 PM EST
    The 1960's feminist movement was greatly motivated by the ugly sexism in the "progressive" and "hip" left, the antiwar and civil rights movements. Read Robin Morgan's "Goodbye to All That."

    Feminism is as relevant today as it was then.

    The Robin Morgan Essay (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:25:30 PM EST
    It's the liberal cooptative masks on the face of sexist hate and fear, worn by real nice guys we all know and like, right? We have met the enemy and he's our friend. And dangerous.

    Here's a link.

    Read it.  It really captures the seething origins of early feminism.

    Parent

    The first women's movement in the 1840s (5.00 / 5) (#125)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:26:04 PM EST
    was motivated by the same thing -- male reformers relying on women to make the coffee and copies and clean up after them, in so many ways.  But allowing women only into abolitionist or temperance "auxiliaries" (overseen by men) rather than the regular ranks.  It was this treatment, refusing even to seat credentialed women delegates to a reformers' convention in 1840, that motivated the greatly respected Quaker minister Lucretia Coffin Mott and a young unknown named Elizabeth Cady Stanton to agree that there was need for a separate movement for women's rights.

    They were a bit busy but finally met in 1848 in Seneca Falls, New York to call the first women's rights convention  . . . and you know the rest.  And some good men were there as well.  But most of the boyz among the reformers more than 150 years ago only mocked the women and the very concept of women's rights and, most laughable of all, woman suffrage.

    I really think that women who thought that this was the "post-feminist" era -- young women who ignore hard data, who tell me that we won an ERA in the Constitution and that I must be wrong when I say not so, although it is one of my specialized work areas -- are getting a wake-up call . . . and that we may see societal impact again from this.

    Parent

    Worried about alienating women? Surely you jest,! (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by clio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:30:18 PM EST
     
    Women have been, and remain, the galley slaves in every reform movement.

    recall Stokely Carmichael's


    "The only position for women in SNCC is prone."

    That was in 1964.
    And what has changed?  
    Well, women's social "corral"  has been enlarged -  not taken down, enlarged* - but the fences are still there just further back.

    When a woman walks that much longer distance to the fence, as Senator Clinton has done, and tries to find the gate she, and we, discover that it's just as high, just as electrified, and just as well defended by male privilege as ever it was.


    Women are still only as free as the dominant men allow them to be.  A woman who refuses to recognize that will be mercilessly attacked, and if possible, destroyed.

    .
    .
    .
    * Carmichael's defenders point out he'd been drinking and that he worked well with women.  I reply "In vino veritas," and any privileged class is polite to the proles,  noblesse oblige, ya' know - as long as their status is not threatened.

    **Women have entered many professions but they still are vastly underrepresented in positions of power within those professions...and when was the last time you heard of women being encouraged to go into
    the skilled trades?
    the very specialized surgical specialties?      
    academic deanships?  
    CEO or CFO positions?  
    General officerships or flag rank in the services?
    I could go on and on.


    Parent

    Uh, I think that we're agreeing (none / 0) (#201)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:12:04 AM EST
    as I surely am not jesting.

    Parent
    Yes, we're singing the same song (none / 0) (#205)
    by clio on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:02:32 AM EST
    although I think I'm older and therefore angrier.  Could be wrong on that.

    Irony is impossible to do in print, at least for me, and I should know better by now than to try it without snark tags.

    Parent

    sad sad sad...last night my young granddaughter (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:15:10 PM EST
    called me (she is 18) and said that every time she objects to something, her boyfriend (he is 21) calls her bi*chy...she said "Grandma I am not a bi*ch and I don't like that"....She was understandably upset...I hope and wish this country would address this issue but like BTD I won't hold my breath as most men don't seem to realize when they are doing it...

    I hope you told her to dump him (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:23:59 PM EST
    Respect is vital to a good relationship

    Parent
    I told her I would school her on how to (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:26:50 PM EST
    deal with sexism as she would encounter it alot in her life....she is coming this weekend for her tutoring session...Any suggestions accepted...:-)

    Parent
    My suggestion? (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:28:32 PM EST
    It's a bit profane, but just tell them:

    "Sorry about your p***s."

    Parent

    HA HA HA HA! (none / 0) (#161)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:45:31 PM EST
    {gasp, wheeze!)  VERY funny!  Wish I'd thought of that way back when!


    Parent
    You're (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:33:11 PM EST
    a kewl Grandma...

    Parent
    Thanks for all the comments and (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:39:33 PM EST
    when he called her one, her come back was "Bi*ch?, you ain't seen Bi*ch yet"....LOL...She is a very strong and independent young woman, and I think she will learn quite easily LOL.....

    Parent
    Oh, let me find the post... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by echinopsia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:28:46 PM EST
    Can't find it. But you could tell her to use QCoFM.

    As in: B*tch? You're calling me a b*tch? Sweetie, I zoomed past b*tch when I was 14. I am so far past b*tch that you can just consider me Queen C*nt of F*ck Mountain.

    Parent

    Is she into books or movies? (none / 0) (#129)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:39:27 PM EST
    I can recommend either -- readable histories of women's rights and/or how to handle sexist crap still today . . . and historical "chick flicks" that my students have just so enjoyed.  I show excerpts in class, but some then go on their own to check out the full flicks.

    And many report back, also on their own but just because they want to share, that they invited mom, sisters, grandma, aunts, etc., to watch with them -- and that those historical "chick flick" nights are fond memories, in part because it's a way to get grandma and mom talking about how it used to be, and then students talking about how it is, and then cross-generational female bonding, counseling, etc.

    But fiction can accomplish much of the same -- and you know the list, from Working Girl and Nine to Five and Norma Rae back to almost anything with Hepburn, etc. :-)

    Others report that moms, sisters, grandmas, aunts, etc., take peeking looks into their books for the course and don't let them be sold back at the end of the semester, because they want to read their history, too.  And they like the  list of dozens more books on the syllabus for a reading list for years to come.  And that's just history -- which keeps repeating itself, as you say -- and there are many fine books, flicks, etc., on women today that are fascinating, including some on media portrayals of women in news and in ads that really may resonate with what she is facing.

    Btw, for a fast way to find lists of such resources and where to check them out, check women's studies links at local libraries, campuses, etc.  And, finally, I hauled out my old copy of The Assertive Woman for my daughter to read about what was happening in her workplace, relationships, etc.  And then we talked and talked. . . .


    Parent

    I took my 10 yr old granddaughter (none / 0) (#153)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:34:35 PM EST
    to see "Beatrix Potter" not long ago and had a long talk with her about what life was like for women in those days.  

    Parent
    oh thanks Cream...She has a reading (none / 0) (#155)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:35:23 PM EST
    comprehension problem and was in spec ed...She is smart as a whip but just cant comprehend unless someone reads it outloud for some reason...She however, types over 140 WPM and is going to study steno captioning for a possible career...so movies would be great if you have a list....She is one of those young ladies that is drop dead gorgeous and gets more than her share of attention from the opposite sex for all the wrong reasons...she is starting to resent it I have noticed...I just cannot believe we havent progressed at all since I was a girl many years ago....makes me sad...

    Parent
    that. I can barely type, and my thoughts get lost before the words are down!

    I've known many of my students who could answer EVERYTHING if I asked it aloud, but would get 40 percent on a written test... still smart as whips, but different formats for different folks.

    Parent

    Ah, athyrio -- that's my daughter (none / 0) (#170)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:02:21 PM EST
    who is just not a reader, either.  And is gorgeous and great in every important way.  But she loves movies and tv and gets a lot from them, thus that option -- and I'm even getting her into documentaries, like last week's on the mass rapes of women in the Congo.  My daughter was so moved, and it meant quite a discussion.

    If your grrl likes tv, great reruns of Designing Women?  I'm especially fond of Julia's tirade in season three, the "First Amendment" episode.  She cuts to the core of the racism vs. sexism debate like no one can but a Sugarbaker. :-)

    Parent

    That rant was written by (none / 0) (#179)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:32:17 PM EST
    friends of the Clintons, they owned and wrote the show. Too bad Hillary can't get an endorsement from Julia Sugarbaker. :D

    Parent
    I recall that -- btw, re Hollywood support (none / 0) (#181)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:45:29 PM EST
    I just read a report that Hollywood money has absolutely split, only $300 apart amid millions, between Obama and Clinton.  The Clintons still have good and loyal friends there -- and I bet that you also can recall that they helped to give us a heck of an inauguration to watch.  I could enjoy seeing one like that again. :-)

    Parent
    There Was Also... (none / 0) (#187)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:28:09 PM EST
    A great one abt women in ministry that was VERY powerful...Great show.  And yes, the writers were from Arkansas...

    Hey,there's always XENA!!!!  :-)

    The Hours is another VERY good movie for showing through the years how it has been for women.

    Parent

    I suspect (none / 0) (#193)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:17:26 AM EST
    that part of my love for the series Star Trek Voyager was the number of kick-a$$ woman on the show. Just try calling Captain Janeway, Seven of Nine, or B'lanna Torres a bit*h and see how far you get.

    Parent
    Then there's Anglachel's slogan (none / 0) (#192)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:47:25 AM EST
    which is:

    "You call me a b**ch as if that's a BAD thing."

    Parent

    two things (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by DandyTIger on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:40:48 PM EST
    One is tell her that if she hears something from a man that she would not accept from a woman, then that's probably sexism.

    And two, the dual of that, for her male friends: when they react in that sort of way, they should think if a male friend was saying something similar would they react the same way.

    Of course adjust for type of relationship as appropriate (friend vs. more than friend subject matters/issues).

    There are probably some good role playing exercises out there to uncover this sort of thing.

    Parent

    Yep, the "test" much talked about (none / 0) (#131)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:44:52 PM EST
    in "the Year of the Woman" -- remember that, almost two decades ago, ha?! -- and the Hill/Thomas hearings.  That is, imagine your wife or mother is in the office with you, mister.  That usually would stop, before they even started, conversations with a young woman and coworker about porn flicks or a certain sort of hair on a certain sort of cola.

    And re the relationship test, i.e., would you think it okay for a girlfriend to say that, do that, etc., to you? it was one that finally worked for my daughter and opened her eyes to what was happening.  Good advice.  If only my mom had given it to me. :-)


    Parent

    Male Approval (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by Athena on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:30:56 PM EST
    This is a way of erasing women - too angry, too silly, too unimportant.  In this case, it is also abusive.  I hope she can learn to live without the approval of abusive (or non-abusive) men; so many women - much older - are still stuck there.

    I'm glad she's got you for guidance.

    Parent

    literally erasing her from this race (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by dotcommodity on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:49:56 PM EST
    to quote the Kevin Drum piece
    As the Pennsylvania primary nears, pundits and party members are again, as they did before Ohio and Texas, calling for Clinton to step down. ("The model of female self-sacrifice is deeply embedded in our culture," notes Bennetts.)


    Parent
    They are all very busy finding other jobs for her (5.00 / 6) (#71)
    by jerry on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:00:56 PM EST
    It's kind of amusing to see them tell her she would be a better Senate Majority Leader, or a better Governor, or anything but President, and that she should step down now.

    However, it's not just the men doing this, many of our "feminist" bloggers have been equally guilty of telling Clinton what she needs to do, calling her names, and deciding how they could never be a Democrat after this.  It's not rare at all to find "feminist" bloggers and pundits calling Clinton the most vile of names. cough Randi Rhodes cough.

    I find it amusing, because on many blogs I speak out against "kneejerk" feminism overreaches, e.g. Duke.  And so on many blogs, I have been called troll, concern troll, misogynist and worse.

    But I support Hillary Clinton, and I am relatively confident I am consistent: for 30 years now I have identified as a feminist.  Just not a knee jerk one.  I try not to be a knee jerk liberal either.  And given what we've seen the past six months or so, I would hope we can all see why we should refrain from knee jerk arguments.

    Parent

    they also try to qualify their sexism... (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:03:15 PM EST
    ...by saying that they'd be happy with a woman president, but not that woman. (How many times have you heard Clinton supporters say they'd be happy with a black president, but not that African-American? Never.)

    Many of the same Obama folks will then add insult to injury and suggest that Obama pick Sebellius or Napolitano for v.p. to placate Clinton voters--as if her supporters vote on the basis of XX chromosomes and nothing else.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#78)
    by Nadai on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:05:57 PM EST
    Amanda Fortini wrote that.  Kevin Drum just quoted it.

    Parent
    Thank God she has a grandmother (none / 0) (#142)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:06:17 PM EST
    who saw the damage and didn't just sail through it like the boomers.  Germain Greer is gone from the shelves, but needs to be printed again.

    Parent
    Hmmm...I'd Say (none / 0) (#166)
    by Blue Jean on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:51:53 PM EST
    play her this song.  It always cheers me up when I'm down, though I've gotten some funny looks when I've sung to myself.

    Parent
    The creative class... (5.00 / 8) (#5)
    by white n az on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:16:45 PM EST
    completely blew it by not speaking out a long time ago when the main stream media was clubbing Hillary.

    Instead, it served their purpose because she wasn't their choice.

    Now they want to lock the barn after the horses are all gone?

    Actually the way they drummed us all off of (5.00 / 8) (#65)
    by dotcommodity on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:54:26 PM EST
    dailykos, hootin and hollerin with every new GBCW departure, has made it clear they are political neophytes who seem to have no idea they need our votes.

    Plus it is now a hollow, boring place for the commentariat, with so many terrific writers dispersed throughout the internets...

    Parent

    The things that have happened (5.00 / 11) (#80)
    by joanneleon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:06:10 PM EST
    in recent months are beyond belief.  I have been beside myself over it, much as I try not to be.

    I still think there has been an infiltration over there.  I used to think that was the main reason for all the garbage against Hillary that's tolerated.  I thought surely the people I thought I knew and respected would never allow this to go unchecked.  And I'm not talking about minor things, and I don't tend to be overly sensitive that way.  I'm talking about eggregious things, and an overall hatred that oozes from cracks all over the place.  

    Then I started seeing outrageously unfair treatment by people whom I had previously admired or respected.  But it was still a minority of long time users.  What really got to me was when I'd see horrific comments that were uprated and allowed to stand with no dissension.  It happened more and more often.  Front pagers who I always thought were champions for women let it go too.  That was when I knew there were big, big issues.  I'm still trying to explain to myself how this could have happened in a place where so many exceptionally good people (so I thought) gather.  I'm completely bewildered by the whole thing.

    Parent

    Viral marketing through facebook... (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by citizen53 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:34:04 PM EST
    and texting.  So much of Obama support is a product of these phenomena.  It affected Daily Kos.  These people are in touch, but so lacking in historical awareness that it is frightening.

    Also, the hip hop influence has moved society backwards in the way people perceive others, especially in disagreement.

    Parent

    They are in touch with each other (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by dianem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:34:31 PM EST
    That makes them feel powerful. They have no clue that they are just big fish in a little pond. They have no idea how tremendously big the "big pond" really is. When I was 25, I thought I knew everything. Every 25 year old I've ever met felt the same way. As I got older I knew less and less. Funny how that works.

    Parent
    Yep. (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by citizen53 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:48:13 PM EST
    I love when they tell me about how things were when I actually lived through them, too.

    Parent
    Get off my lawn! (none / 0) (#126)
    by jerry on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:26:13 PM EST
    but so lacking in historical awareness that it is frightening.

    I agree with you, but this is largely a "Get off my lawn!" post. :)

    Parent

    Sexism. (5.00 / 6) (#7)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:17:43 PM EST
    Sexism is funny that way, when you call someone on it, they accuse you of being a feminist.  I say accuse, cause many consider it derogatory.  I still don't understand that one.  

    I think it was always there in (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:23:17 PM EST
    conservative thought and to a lesser degree in liberal circles in the past.  However, the intensity with which the conservatives attacked  the changes in the social structure after the 60's brought it to a head.  Women had not strayed too much prior to that but abortion and civil rights really was a lightening rod.  The rise of Bill Clinton and his "liberal" wife threw them into spasms of fear and they worked overtime to destroy the liberalization of society.  So how did the liberals buy into it?  They bought into the right wing meme that Hillary was a dominatrix (and what young man wouldn't fear that, even Tucker Carlson!). It was a catalyst to the latent sexism in the liberal males and females.

    Parent
    Some people are oversensitive (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by dianem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:43:30 PM EST
    There are stories, some at least partially valid, about some women who claim that any sex is rape because women have so little power that they can't legitimately consent. Or women who object to having doors held for them (I say thank you - but then, I hold the door open for the person behind me, regardless of gender). I'm on a college campus right now, and some of the poster's about women's rights make me cringe. I want to be equal, not separate, not better. Just equal.

    My "equality" radar has been turned down to low in the last few years, but this election has been a real wake-up call. The most subtle references to race were trumpeted as blatant racism, while totally overt sexism was laughed at. This is wrong. You don't insult women of Clinton's accomplishments the way she has been insulted. I've realized that women are still very much at the back of the bus.  Those who think that we are "privileged" if we move around as second class citizens in a white world are like the people who fought civil rights because (they said) black people were happier in their own neighborhoods and stores. These people think that you can have different standards for men and women and still have equality. You can't. Separate AND Equal is as much nonsense for women as it was for blacks.

    Parent

    If you're not a feminist, you're not a progressive (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by angie on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:03:24 PM EST
    I read that anglachel's blog. It's by Melissa McEwan.  Truer words were never spoken:

    Feminism is an integral part of progressivism.
    If you're not a feminist, you're not a progressive.
    No matter how much you hate Bush.
    No matter how much you hate the Iraq war.
    No matter how much you hate our current torture policy.
    No matter how much you want to restore habeas corpus.
    No matter how much you're totally going to vote for the Democrat in November.
    If you're not a feminist, you're not a progressive.
    You're a fauxgressive.
    End of story

    Parent

    I never miss (none / 0) (#194)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:28:21 AM EST
    anglachel now that I found the blog. And this particular post I think sums it up quite nicely. I copied it, enlarged it, printed it out, framed it and hung it on the wall beside my computer.

    My oldest granddaughter has now done the same thing.

    Parent

    The "Creative Class" will notice (5.00 / 11) (#8)
    by myiq2xu on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:18:38 PM EST
    women voters when they do the post-mortum describing how McCain won.

    Heh, sad but true. (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:20:20 PM EST
    Seems there's an equation 'they' are leaving out of "the Math".

    Parent
    They will notice (5.00 / 15) (#23)
    by rooge04 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:26:35 PM EST
    when we stay home. They will notice when 55% of Democratic women that support Clinton are not all there in November. They will notice at McCain's swearing in. Then they will notice. And then they will blame it on Hillary.  They will notice it when it's too late.  It's too late now, frankly. The misogyny that I've seen is something I never thought I'd see from Democrats.  Lately Republicans look less sexist.  When a sitting female President is called a f*c* w* and liberal boys try to justify it, you know there's acceptable sexism.   Obama will lose the votes of women like me---young and old--who are sick to death of being taken for granted. Taken for granted and insulted at every turn.

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 7) (#32)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:39:08 PM EST
    The f*c*w incident removed any trace of a doubt for me. I will never look at these so-called progressives the same way again. They are not on my side.

    Parent
    You highlight something (5.00 / 4) (#67)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:55:39 PM EST
    That offensive remark was made by a women. Some of the worst sexists are female.

    Parent
    There's always women who want to be one (5.00 / 7) (#101)
    by derridog on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:32:55 PM EST
    of the boys and they think that this will happen if they attack other women and take on male attitudes.  I've seen this happen over and over.   Never works, I'm afraid --or else, it only works when they are young and attractive and still have sexual power.  When they get older (or get married and have babies) they suddenly find exactly how the system is rigged.

    Parent
    MoDo (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:53:55 PM EST
    and Arianna suffer greatly with HDS.

    Parent
    There were woman anti-suffragists, too (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:52:19 PM EST
    and with a sizeable organization, offices, etc., that sent them out of the home to tell women to stay in the home and stop talking about getting the vote.

    Later investigations found that much of the funding of those groups came from corporate interests, which knew (long before focus groups, polls, etc.) what women would do to them with the vote.  As they did, with many of the laws won against child labor and for workers' compensation and the like -- and much of what went into force in the New Deal, thanks to the first woman in a presidential cabinet, Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins . . . who had witnessed the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire in 1911, almost a 9/11 then for women.

    I wonder if we will see the same, someday, about the sources for the anti-Clinton/anti-women forces that we see now.  We need to always ask "who is this for?  who benefits most?"  And we need to remember that behind every race or gender war is a class war.

    Parent

    They'll notice. But the post-mortem will (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Joelarama on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:30:48 PM EST
    go something like this:

    "It's Hillary's fault that Obama lost."

    John Aravosis has been helpful enough to say this explicitly, in advance.  Kos has implied it on several occasions (before I stopped reading him).

    An aside, why don't we go back to the more accurate, 1990s term for the "creative class":  "the overclass." Overclass is more accurate.

    Parent

    Naw, it will be the trendy thing (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by myiq2xu on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:47:44 PM EST
    for the kewl kidz to talk about.

    "The Democratic party hates women."

    They're already explaining how racist we are.

    Parent

    I place a lot of responsibility (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by MichaelGale on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:50:50 PM EST
    on the blogger and the other guy. I was an Edwards supporter and liked Obama and I liked Hillary. However, when this all started ,the Hillary hate, I just got so angry and disgusted. Decision made.

    So they cannot blame Hillary and be little victims here.  The share the responsibility if women go to McCain. or don't vote.

    Of course, they and the DNC, believe this will never happen. They believe that everyone will be one big happy Democratic Party and vote anyway.

    I am from Florida and if our votes are not counted again, I think the Democrats are done in Florida ...period.

    Lord.  I used to be a Yellow Dog Democrat, just like my Dad. Things certainly have changed.

    Parent

    My mom and dad both were dyed-in-the-wool (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:54:57 PM EST
    and strike-me-dead-if-I-don't Dem voters, too.  And worked toward the goals of both civil rights movements of their eras -- for AAs and for women.

    Seeing the Dems today, my parents would be so anguished.  I'm almost glad that they're gone, off to a far better place where everybody wins. :-)

    Parent

    Ironically, (5.00 / 8) (#73)
    by nemo52 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:02:52 PM EST
    Many female Clinton supporters in that over-the -hill 35+ age group are indeed working in the information-era, higher-education-needed workforce (the so-called "creatvie class") but do not congratulate ourselves quite so much on our membership.  It took too much hard work to get here.

    Parent
    I am one of those, indeed, (5.00 / 5) (#89)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:17:08 PM EST
    and I put up with a lot of BS to get where I am.

    Parent
    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Jgarza on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:03:20 PM EST
    if they do that, womens rights will suffer probably more than any other.  

    Parent
    From what I've seen (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by echinopsia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:38:08 PM EST
    Obama is no guarantor of women's rights. Abstinence education, finding a "compromise" with anti-abortionists, almost voting for Roberts - Obama is not a friend to women's rights. I have never seem him speak out about sexism, andhe's had plenty of chances.

    He's not working for my vote. He's taking it for granted.

    Boy is he gonna be surprised.

    Parent

    If it is him, they think we will just come home (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:01:54 PM EST
    As dutiful women do. But this time, I don't think so. I could be wrong, but I am not afraid of not voting this time. Never missed a vote since Carter, but if I do not believe that BHO is the Democrat who would make a good President, I will probably pass for another 4 years. The reasons, there are two. First of all, it would show the sexist men that we should not be taken for granted just because someone snaps their fingers. And secondly, I don't want a Democratic President who I feel might be equal to the one we have already. He really is not all that liberal. He is a Centralist. I read up on him on how he got to be Harvard Law Review President and I notice the same tactics he uses now. He goes in and states the obvious to disarm the other side before they can state it. Then he says how he understands their anger, disappointment, etc, and agrees with them. They they decide he is middle of the road. It seems to work. That was what he was saying when he mentioned his age and race the other night. He was saying the obvious that people were thinking.

    BTW, I am not worried that the women's rights might lose anything because that has been a threat for a very long time. A Woman President would be good. Why are American men so afraid? They even have had women leaders in the Middle East and Asia where sometimes the women are 2nd class citizens. What do the men think that a Woman President would do for them? Like they will have to split the chores or something. And the remark is not aimed at sensible males on this site. There are many men who don't feel threatened by a Women President or Hillary.

    Parent

    Obama (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by sas on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:04:47 PM EST
    He does not have my vote, nor can he get my vote.  I recommend that we women not vote for him together.

    This is the only way we have power.

    If we capitulate, they will take us for granted again.

    I have no fear for abortion rights or the Supreme Court.  I will not be held hostage.


    Parent

    Not true (none / 0) (#99)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:31:52 PM EST
    I find Obama and McCain about equal on that one issue.

    Parent
    Women's rights suffer? (none / 0) (#195)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:48:02 AM EST
    How much more than seeing that misogyny is not only accepted in the party many of us have thought we were a part of and supported for many years but that it is mainstream. Racism is a mighty no-no if even thought to be present. Sexism? Not a problem.

    Parent
    The commenters on Kevin Drum's (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Boston Boomer on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:50:42 PM EST
    post seem pretty unconcerned.  They are living in such a bubble that they don't realize how much anger there is among women.  And they completely discount the working class reactions to Obama's condescension too.  I wonder how they think they can get him elected?  Personally, I will never vote for Obama, and I'm even starting to think about not voting for any Democrats downticket either.  I know I'm not going to vote for John Kerry.


    Parent
    I emailed some of my down-ticket (none / 0) (#139)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:57:39 PM EST
    Dem candidates some questions.  So far, those who replied still will get my vote.  And let it be said that in some cases, I will be voting for a man instead of a woman.  It's not about their genitalia.

    Parent
    Yeah. They'll talk about how stupid we are. (none / 0) (#96)
    by derridog on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:27:45 PM EST
    I think feminist like liberal, the right (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by athyrio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:19:40 PM EST
    wing has made sure to make unpopular as words...When the right wing feels threatened by something they try to demonize it...

    Sort of like (none / 0) (#14)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:23:51 PM EST
    small town, USA?  Gunz and Gawd?

    Parent
    Yep. "Feminazi"----coined by (none / 0) (#58)
    by vicsan on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:50:34 PM EST
    none other than the Conservatives and Rush Limbaugh:

    Feminazi (also spelled femi-Nazi or femme-nazi) is a pejorative term used to characterize feminists. It is used predominantly in North America by social conservatives to refer to feminists whom they perceive as intolerant of conservative views.[1][2][3][4] The term does not relate to the National Socialist Women's Organization or any other organization of women who served Nazi Germany.

    Popularized by Rush Limbaugh

    The term was popularized by conservative talk-show host Rush Limbaugh, who credited his friend Tom Hazlett, a professor of law and economics at George Mason University, with coining the term.[4] Limbaugh originally stated that the word "feminazi" not only referred to an extreme feminist but to a woman whose goal was that there should be as many abortions as possible, saying at one point that there were fewer than twenty-five true feminazis in the U.S.[7]

    Though Limbaugh has claimed these limits to the definition of the term, in practice he has employed it in a much wider context. For example, on April 26, 2004, Limbaugh said, "Some funny comments from the femi-Nazis at the pro-abortion rally in Washington yesterday. Not many. It didn't take long for us to put together our montage, but we'll let you hear it when we come back." Limbaugh referred to the March for Women's Lives.[8] The march's organizers estimated that 1.15 million people attended.[9]

    Limbaugh has also used the term to refer to members of the National Center for Women and Policing, the Feminist Majority Foundation, and the National Organization for Women -- which has over 500,000 members.[10][11][12]

    Among those named as "Femi-Nazis" was noted Women's Gender and Sexuality scholar, and author of "Reading Oprah: How Oprah's Book Club Changed the Way America Reads," Cecilia Konchar Farr.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminazi

    Parent

    The most annoying thing (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by nellre on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:20:54 PM EST
    Men will interrupt. This is especially annoying at work.
    You can see it on TV, when female commentators are trying to get a point across.
    It's like we don't have anything worth hearing to say.
     

    Or they'll be like Tweety (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:24:14 PM EST
    and denigrate the women commentators by telling them they're beautiful instead of responding to the substance of their remarks.

    Parent
    Personally, I'm waiting for the day (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Joelarama on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:10 PM EST
    when Tweety calls Rachel Maddow "handsome."  The man really has no filter.

    Parent
    I'm waiting for the day... (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by dianem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:55:45 PM EST
    ...when an unattractive woman gets a position of power on any news channel.

    Parent
    It might just be more of a style thing (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by BachFan on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:03:10 PM EST
    I've noticed -- actually, it's been brought to my attention by others! -- that I tend to interrupt people, when I'm engaged in animated discussions (and I'm female).  It's something that both of my siblings (one male, one female) and my mother do as well ... only my father is polite enough not to interrupt.  I'm trying to change that habit -- to wait until someone's finished making his/her point before jumping in with both feet -- but it's suprisingly hard to break the habit.

    Parent
    I interrupt also (none / 0) (#184)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:03:42 PM EST
    all the time.  I suspect part of it is I do not often get a chance for conversation (live alone).  But a big part is that all my family tended to get excited and just had to break in.  I've one child that does not appreciate that trait--but it is truly part of me. (I do try not to in public.)

    Parent
    You are on to something here. (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:49:24 PM EST
    Interrupting and talking over is prevalent in business and male dominated occupations like medicine once was. There has been much wailing about how women are taking over much of medicine (not the high paying specialites, however) but actually these women LISTEN to their patients.  I know from personal experience.

    Parent
    that's especially detrimental in schools (none / 0) (#50)
    by DandyTIger on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:47:56 PM EST
    This seems to be  behavior learned at a pretty early age, and of course learned behavior from teachers that permit that same problem. And if course this is why all girl schools have a lot of merit.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#114)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:07:40 PM EST
    So true. I truly don't even think they realize it sometimes. But, I will not tolerate that. I have learned some time ago to just call them on it and tell them they are being rude for interrupting in a very nice way of course. heh.

    Parent
    Saw it on the debates, see it in the media (none / 0) (#140)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:01:41 PM EST
    and I just know that there are graduate students out there in this great land of ours who are analyzing videotapes and coming up with studies that will call for a new edition of Tannen's and others' books on gender and communication.  And when we read them, we will say . . . saw that, said so, was ignored when I did -- and interrupted when I tried to make that point about the 2008 campaign. :-)

    Parent
    Yeah...and to hear so-called progressives... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by citizen53 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:21:57 PM EST
    show that they are no better than Archie Bunker.

    We needed the ERA back then and still need it now.

    What a good reminder (none / 0) (#115)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:09:29 PM EST
    The ERA Amendment. At the time, I could not believe that the men would not pass it. It was so important to us but it just blew away. I had completely forgotten about it. Excellent example.

    Parent
    Women were the majority of voters then (none / 0) (#141)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:05:20 PM EST
    too -- when the mostly men of Congress did pass it, after almost half a century, and it went to the states.  And it went until my state was the first to feel the force of Phyllis Schlafly, remember her?

    She's still around, still sending out her newsletter, still arguing against any effort to revive the ERA campaign -- including last year, when women in Congress brought it forward again, btw.  It made a great photo op on the steps of the Capitol that day; I saved it.

    Stay tuned, and let's see what younger women do, if enough are awakened to the reality that we haven't hit the "post-feminism" period yet.

    Parent

    Unfortunately, I do not see younger women (none / 0) (#147)
    by FLVoter on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:20:54 PM EST
    taking up "the cause".  Alot of the younger women I have met (21, 22) do not even admit that there is a problem.  What happened?  When I was that age I became a member of NOW.  Without these young women getting on board, the chances of ERA passing in my lifetime seems remote.

    Parent
    They'll notice (5.00 / 8) (#17)
    by Nadai on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:24:03 PM EST
    when it hurts them personally and not before.  And even then, most of them will find a way to blame women for being alienated.  It's our role in life to swallow whatever gets shoved down our throats, and if we won't, well, then, see "castrating scold" above.  I find almost as much day-to-day sexism among "progressive" men as I do among conservative men.  Only the justifications are different.

    IACF (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:25:39 PM EST
    if Obama tanks before the end of June.

    IACF that he said what he said in SF.

    IACF that he gets completely trounced by McCain.

    We're already seeing exactly what you're saying. :-(

    Parent

    I wonder what Marcos would say if (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:14:17 PM EST
    all those sexist horrible remarks were made against his wife or little girl. He should be happy that Hillary is paving the way for his daughter to be a President herself someday.

    Parent
    personally (5.00 / 8) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:24:24 PM EST
    I think Tucker Carlson just wants a excuse to cross his legs.


    That is funny! (none / 0) (#27)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:29:23 PM EST
    I do think you have the right notion.

    Parent
    These sexist men (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by felizarte on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:28:03 PM EST
    were raised by mothers who probably allowed themselves to be treated that way by their husbands; or they were girls raised in an environment where that notion was tolerated.  It is, certainly a struggle that continues to be fought.  Women must learn to demand their rights and should stand up for any one whose rights are being violated in the best way they can.  Right now, it is our voice in this election.  I think I read somewhere where Sen. Obama would not let Michelle take a job until he approved of it.  Sexism is deeply ingrained in most men.

    I mostly agree but.... (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:12 PM EST
    ...some of these sexist boys were also raised by feminist mothers. Its the culture and the pop media. Parents can only do so much to mitigate the effects of the pervasive misogyny these boys see in video games, movies, or hear in the popular music they listen to. This is just as true for boys as it is for girls, although it has been more widely recognized as harmful to girls. For boys, if they don't end up serial killers or rapists many people assume that they have not been effected, but they have been effected, particularly in their relationships with women.

    Parent
    That's true (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by stillife on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:52:57 PM EST
    I hate to say it, but my son is a bit of a sexist.  He grew up listening to hip-hop and OK, I did wait on him a little bit so it's partially my own fault.   Of course, he's also a joker so he'll make outrageous statements just to get a rise out of his sister and me.  He's kind of a marshmallow inside his tough exterior and is extremely devoted to his girlfriend.  And he's voting for Hillary next week, so I guess I did something right!

    Parent
    I have three (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by joanneleon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:46:06 PM EST
    and none of them show signs of being sexist so far.  My oldest (a teenager) chose Hillary before I did because he believes we need someone who will have the resources to fix the things Bush has broken as quickly as possible and because he respects experience.  I was a strong Edwards supporter and it took me quite awhile to choose another candidate after he dropped out.  My son had chosen Hillary weeks before I came around.  She remains his first choice, even after being accused of racism at school simply because he didn't choose Obama and even though he hasn't a racist bone in his body, as evidenced by the broad assortment of friends he has.

    They have no sisters, so they're a bit baffled by girls and women sometimes, but they have not the slightest bit of hesitation of choosing a woman for president.  Obviously, I'm happy about this.  My oldest is for Hillary, my middle one leans to Obama, and my youngest is undecided and the other day he said "Mom, as long as it's a democrat, I'm good."  I support all of them in their choices.

    Parent

    My son is a tremendous sexist -utterly unconscious (none / 0) (#105)
    by derridog on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:36:51 PM EST
    of it, of course, and he was raised by my daughter and I. My husband died when he was 12.  

    Parent
    I'm home free! (none / 0) (#182)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:55:10 PM EST
    My son is gay...and his older sisters would have drowned him in his bathtub if he'd dissed them (they are a lot older).

    Parent
    Exactly. Our entertainment culture (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:55:07 PM EST
    is so laden with testosterone. It is so pervasive.  And we have a "gung=ho" president to boot.  The whole violent tough guy is absorbed by kids from a young age.

    Parent
    Got a link for this? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:32 PM EST
    I think I read somewhere where Sen. Obama would not let Michelle take a job until he approved of it.

    Sexism is deeply ingrained in most men.

    How sexist of you!

    Parent
    Obama's web site (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by echinopsia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:46:10 PM EST
    For the Michelle had to get his permission to take a job story. It's in a magazine article. His web site is such a mess I'm not going to do the work to find it again - but it is true. She was offered a job at city hall and she told her prospective boss Barry had to approve before she could accept.

    Parent
    No link, (1.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:28:12 PM EST
    posting rumors

    And sexist to boot.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#128)
    by Steve M on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:36:08 PM EST
    Here is the link.

    In the summer of 1991, Valerie Jarrett, then Mayor Richard Daley's deputy chief of staff, interviewed a young Sidley Austin attorney named Michelle Robinson. After the 90-minute conversation, Jarrett offered her a job, but Robinson called back a day later, not to say "yes" but "maybe." First, she said, her fiance wanted to meet Jarrett.

    By that time, Obama the independent-minded community activist had privately expressed his political ambitions. This job would put his wife-to-be squarely in the offices of the man whose father had perfected the Democratic machine.

    "My fiance wants to know who is going to be looking out for me and making sure that I thrive," Jarrett recalled Robinson telling her.

    So the three of them -- the prospective boss, the job applicant and the man she would marry a year later -- piled into a booth at a seafood restaurant in the Loop and got to know each other over a long dinner.

    At the end of the evening, Jarrett turned to Barack and asked, "Well, did I pass the test?" Obama smiled, put his head down, closed his eyes and said, "Yeah, you passed the test."



    Parent
    Thanks (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by echinopsia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:21:31 PM EST
    I get so tired sometimes of Obama people who demand cites for everything, then when you knock yourself out to provide them, dismiss them or don't read them.

    Hey Coyote - beep beep!

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#204)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:48:07 PM EST
    Weeeellll, Wile E? (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:09:54 PM EST
    Apologize.  And that link has been posted here many times before.  Did you even look here, google, etc.?  Stop asking for stuff to be reposted just for you and stop with the presumptions that if you don't know something, it must be incorrect, not worth knowing, and might even be not what you expect.

    Parent
    I never understood the name change (none / 0) (#122)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:20:34 PM EST
    For being one of the guys in school and for having a memorable name in politics. Calculated indeed. Heh.

    Parent
    Another woman... (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:40:45 PM EST
    OT - but Michelle is on Colbert tonight.  I think we should start a drinking game - every outrageous thing she says - you have to do a shot (like Hillary).

    I predict we'll be drunk at the end of the 5 minute interview.

    I think I read that Hillary will be on on Thursday (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:10:49 PM EST
    Need to verify that though.

    Parent
    I was red-bannered at MyDD (5.00 / 7) (#37)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:42:27 PM EST
    yesterday, for commenting on one of the threads about the awful racist comment of that Kentucky governor.

    I said something similar to what I said here, about how there's outrage about the racism, but the sexism that permeantes the entire internet community and networks like MSNBC goes on with a shrug.  (Yes, the one comment was awful, but we get the drip, drip, drip every day which is at least as bad).

    Yes, I was WARNED, almost banned for saying something to that effect.  YES, I was.

    So yeah, angry white woman, me here.  Not going to vote with those who permeate the despicable daily hatred toward women. And going to encourage as many of my friends as possible to do the same.

    And BTW this is a (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:45:45 PM EST
    different attitude from me than I had just a couple of days ago.

    A couple of days ago I would have said, I won't vote for Obama, and you can do what you want.

    Today, it's I won't vote for Obama, and if you vote for him, it's a vote to send women's rights (via his supporters and especially the MSNBC frat) back a hundred years.  So just don't do it.

    Parent

    I'm with you. (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by dk on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:00:22 PM EST
    Remember, in the Faith Forum the other night, Obama said in so many words that his position on abortion is still in flux.  So even on the one issue that the blogger boyz always trot out to explain why they think women would eventually suck it up and vote for Obama, abortion rights, Obama isn't really trustworthy.

    Lack of universal healthcare, unnecessary tinkering with social security, gay baiting, continued presence in Iraq....the list goes on.  I'm not voting for McCain, but I honestly don't think the actual results coming out of an Obama administration will be materially different than that of a McCain administration.  I'm staying home.

    Parent

    As if Obama's going to protect abortion rights (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Ellie on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:54:55 PM EST
    I swear, the sudden concern about Roe v. Wade every four years is as cyclical and predictable as a political man-period.

    Please. It should never have been a political wedge in the first place and could be smacked down quite handily by applying the "pro" life standards to other, shall we say, more exclusively nutsack related medical procedures.

    Men who keep putting it on the back burner don't want to go there out of naked sexism (excepting those who are plain cowards or simply don't give a damn at the hundreds of thousands of women, children and young people the "pro" life hooey condemns to death.)

    Obama won't liberalize the SCOTUS. He's too busy working outreach to bring fresh hands to the persecution of women movement.

    I swear, I'll take a sabbatical to personally get up in the face of any jackass who tries to blame future right wing court appointments on women who didn't applaud the Dems and "progressives" loudly enough during the latest recruitment drive for new persecutors.


    Parent

    A vote for Obama (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:33:34 PM EST
    Is a vote for the Main Stream Media.

    It's as simple as that.


    Parent

    Ed Schultz today on Air America (5.00 / 14) (#41)
    by dotcommodity on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:14 PM EST
    is right now screeching about Rendell saying theres racists in PA. Flip over to the DailyObama and half a dozen dairies screeching about the Obama talkingpoint of the moment...

    But right before Ohio, 60 minutes had guys in factories blandly saying they would never vote for a woman....zero reaction from the (female) reporter or the blogosphere....

    Even the demands that she get out, or fury at her for running even the blandest of ads (like this one with gun owners not liking being dismissed)is evidence of that.

    Theres very apparently an underlying belief that she simply has no right to compete for this job.

    There was (5.00 / 9) (#48)
    by Steve M on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:47:08 PM EST
    a video from before the SC primary, from CBS news I think.  They went into some local diners and asked the patrons, almost all African-Americans, who they supported in the primary.

    The dynamic was striking.  Almost all the women claimed to like both candidates and to be torn between them.  But a large number of the men were quite open about coming out and saying that they didn't think the Presidency was a job for a woman.  Some of them, and this is the part that really amazes me, had no reservations about saying that right there in front of their family.  I can't even imagine what my daughter would think if she heard her father say something like that.

    I always wondered whether CBS cherry-picked these comments.  I have my doubts.

    Parent

    Yep, they don't react or object because... (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:52:17 PM EST
    ...not want to vote for someone because she's a woman seems like a valid reason to them.

    Parent
    Ed Schultz Has Sold Out for a Unity Pony (5.00 / 4) (#64)
    by BDB on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:53:10 PM EST
    If he said that.  Because his entire schtick is as a midwestern populist democrat.  He's all about the very people Obama insulted.  

    Not that I've ever liked Schultz.  The left's version of Limbaugh, if you ask me, and I'm one of the folks who never thought we needed that.

    Parent

    Ed Schultz (none / 0) (#196)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:11:58 AM EST
    is still honked off because Hillary didn't come on his show. It's about HIS giant inflated ego. Not saying he isn't a sexist, just remember when he got all outraged when she didn't scurry over to do his show.

    I seldom listened to him, just another windbag IMO and stopped listening to Air America entirely. Rachel Maddow is such a disappointment and the others are just Obama shills so why do more damage to my blood pressure and give them any ratings help?

    Isn't it funny how a short time ago, Democrats were laughing at how the Republican Party was in such disarray? And now thanks to alienating a large protion of their base the Democrats are in a far worse position?

    Parent

    Well I bet (none / 0) (#157)
    by Lora on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:39:18 PM EST
    The guys in the factories won't vote for a black man either, but you won't hear that on 60 minutes.

    Parent
    I have noticed (5.00 / 22) (#44)
    by Steve M on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:40 PM EST
    that for every woman who complains about sexism, there are ten who feel the same way but keep it to themselves.

    I don't like when we force racism and sexism to battle one another (as by asking "which is worse"), but one thing that seems hard to dispute is that our society rewards those who levy accusations of racism.  Their charges are taken seriously, public debates ensue, people lose their jobs for stepping over the line.

    I don't see the same treatment generally afforded to those who make accusations of sexism.  If you're a woman who complains about sexism, you're written off as either a whiner or, more commonly, a b*tch.  And many women absorb this lesson and decide that they're better off keeping their complaints to themselves.

    No matter how this nomination shakes out, there's a risk that some people will be alienated.  By and large, Hillary's supporters are not the squeaky wheels, and so there's much attention paid to the question of whether Obama's supporters will abandon the party in the fall and not nearly as much paid to Hillary's supporters.  But if someone silently decides not to vote for the Democrat, we've lost that vote just as surely as if they threw a tantrum in advance to let us know their intentions.  What worries me is that a lot of people don't seem to care, though, unless you stage a big production.

    Indeed. (5.00 / 7) (#56)
    by kmblue on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:50:04 PM EST
    Spot on, Steve M.
    I've keep my mouth shut to keep my job too many times to count.
    As I imagine many women have.
    As I imagine many black people have.
    As you said, we cannot really compare racism and sexism.
    It is my firm belief that racism is not acceptable to many.
    But sexism is.

    Parent
    I think you are right (5.00 / 7) (#66)
    by joanneleon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:55:30 PM EST
    There is a lot of quiet simmering going on in this country right now.

    Parent
    So true Steve M (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:18:14 PM EST
    I think the squeaky wheels have backed the superdelegates into a corner.  

    Maybe it's time for us to get a little squeakier.

    Parent

    There's this too: (none / 0) (#180)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:38:19 PM EST
    More than 50% of Americans, more than 50% of possible voters, are female.  Last I read, racism won't hit home with that many people.  And I also read that Hispanics are going to be the largest minority group in the future.  But women are in all demographics that are not based on gender.  And some of our husbands and brothers and sons don't appreciate the put-downs either.  Somebody better start counting.

    Parent
    It's because (none / 0) (#199)
    by misspeach2008 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:27:02 AM EST
    we haven't threatened to riot in the streets of Denver if Clinton doesn't get the nomination.  I copied from another blog what appeared to be a legitimate threat with a detailed plan of what a group of Obama supporters were suggesting they would do if the nomination went to HRC and sent it to the DNC. All I got back was a request for a donation.

    Parent
    CLinton hatred (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:45:04 PM EST
    is the figleaf

    Clinton Hatred is real (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by myiq2xu on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:49:34 PM EST
    Misogyny is just a "new and improved" version.

    Parent
    And the idea that Clinton hatred (5.00 / 10) (#55)
    by BDB on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:49:59 PM EST
    at least for this Clinton, hasn't long been driven by sexism, is itself ridiculous.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:56:24 PM EST
    I am astonished only by the Democrats (5.00 / 16) (#51)
    by Joelarama on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:48:21 PM EST
    and alleged progressives who have bought into the media narrative on Hillary.

    Special disgust is reserved for the blogger boys who made challenging the media's bias against Democrats a centerpiece of the great Netroots experiment many of us were excited to feel a part of.

    The Netroots have been betrayed by their own.  Or, maybe the blogger boys were never what they claimed to be.  They were interested in "Crashing the Gate" only so that they could become exactly like Joe Klein, Frank Luntz, and the rest of them.

    Salon's got a related article (5.00 / 10) (#62)
    by tree on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:52:33 PM EST
    on the topic from the younger female Obama supporter's angle. Even some of them are noticing it. Hey Obama boys:Back Off Already


    I received e-mails and phone calls from women voicing various strains of frustration: They told me about the sexism they felt coming from their brothers and husbands and friends and boyfriends; some described the suspicion that their politically progressive partners were actually uncomfortable with powerful women. Others had to find ways to call me out of earshot of their Obama-loving boyfriends. Some women apologized for "sounding so feminist." Interviewees expressed vexation at not being able to put their finger on what it was about Obama-mania that creeped them out so badly, while maintaining a deep assuredness that something was not quite right. Perhaps most surprising was that the majority of the women I spoke to were not haters: They were Obama supporters, or at least Obama-appreciators.


    KDrum doesn't actually sound worried (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Klio on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:57:23 PM EST
    he's merely taking note:  
    In the end, my guess is that neither group will stay home. The specter of John McCain in the White House will simply be too strong.

    And if you scroll down through his comments {which I don't believe Kevin does or he might actually worry} you'll see the threat made explicit:  Roe v. Wade, baby.  I can't begin to count how many times I've heard this, the women will come back because where are they going to go....?  

    In my opinion (5.00 / 6) (#72)
    by kmblue on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:01:31 PM EST
    They've beaten the Roe v. Wade puppy to death.
    I'm a woman who feels strongly it's a stick being used to poke me to line up behind Obama.
    Sorry, I'm tired of being pushed around, and being told (patronizingly) that I musn't be a low information voter working against my own interests.

    Threats won't get my vote.

    Parent

    Yeah, I'm sick of (5.00 / 6) (#92)
    by stillife on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:21:16 PM EST
    being threatened by Roe v. Wade. From a purely selfish standpoint, I'm old enough not to worry about an unwanted pregnancy and rich enough not to have it affect my daughter.

    From a political standpoint, I don't believe most of the Repugs are truly interested in overturning Roe.  It's such a mobilizing force for them, what would they do without it?  

    As far as Obama is concerned, considering his statements that pro-choicers should acknowledge the concerns of pro-lifers and that he would advocate abstinence education, he's given me no reason to trust him on that issue.

    So - no.  Don't assume I'm gonna fall in line for Obama based on this issue.

    Parent

    Agree with you (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:42:09 PM EST
    They pushed too far. I will not be bullied into voting for BHO because they will call me a racist if I don't or because of Woe vs Wade. As long as Obama thinks that Roberts and Alito were good choices, and he will not commit, I am not holding my breath that he will stand by Pro Choice. Nope, so far, no dangling carrots.

    Parent
    Obama's (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by nemo52 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:33:54 PM EST
    blather about abstinence at the Faith forum is disturbing as well.  I do not trust him on reproductive rights at all.  Not when he wants to be Mr. Unity/Compromise.

    Parent
    Too old for R vs. W (none / 0) (#178)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:30:15 PM EST
    I am, and so are my daughters.  Furthermore, there's the 'morning after' pill, not to mention regular contraceptives are better now.  And THE conversation now is likely to go:  "Did you bring one?"  "No, I forgot."  Well, I did."  

    And when you come right down to itm I am not sure Mr. O. is totally on board.  

    Parent

    When Roe v. Wade is a weapon (5.00 / 4) (#154)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:35:09 PM EST
    used by so-called progressives as much as by the right wing, well, that told me there is something very wrong with both groups.  So then I started thinking about what they have in common . . . and that is not a line of thought that the so-called progressives would have wanted to suggest to me.

    Parent
    But (none / 0) (#197)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:21:42 AM EST
    the guilt police are all ready out in full force. We can't vote our conscience because we have to vote for the good of the country. Or if we don't vote for Obama in the GE, should he be the nominee, we are not real Democrats. I respond; guilty as charged. I changed my affiliation to Independent nearly a year ago in outrage over the wimpy Dems in Washington. And I vote my conscience not any dang party.

    Personally I don't think that it's good for the country to validate the kind of behavior I've seen during this campaign. If I vote for Obama then I'm saying that it's okay to be sexist, it's okay for the MSM to choose our candidates, it's okay to disenfranchise the voters of two states, and that as a progressive I don't mind not having a level playing field so long as it's tilted my way. I won't vote to validate any of that. It would IMO be un-American and against everything I have ever believed.

    Parent

    Exactly -- validating thiese behaviors (none / 0) (#202)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:15:38 AM EST
    by media, blogz boyz, etc., is what I cannot do.  You have called it out perfectly here.

    Guilt either way, huh?  But we're used to that as women. :-)

    Parent

    As a woman of a certain age... (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:28:46 PM EST
    ...pregnancy is no longer a concern for me, and I've often wondered whether it'll take evisceration of Roe to rouse all the younger "post-feminists." So no, that argument rarely moves me.

    Besides, if younger women don't feel they have a stake in feminism because it doesn't affect them or hold meaning to them personally, why should I continue to work my ass off defending the rights they now enjoy?

    Parent

    I know -- we women of a certain age (none / 0) (#203)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:22:38 AM EST
    are getting weary . . . and I am measuring out my time as finite, with much deferred still to do.  I find myself thinking "do I get involved in this, and if I do, what am I giving up that I won't get to do?"  Actually, my job means I give a lot of time to teaching young women (and men) about women's history, so I have to get away from it to stay sane when some keep telling me that we have an ERA in the Constitution, they don't need the movement, etc.!

    As long as I can keep focusing on the others who treat every lecture as a revelation, who react by learning to question everything ever taught to them about history to take that lesson into life after their time with me, I can keep going.  But I just don't have the time left to keep marching, too -- that is a younger woman's work, as they have so much time left to them.  May they use it as well as our foremothers did and taught us to do.

    Parent

    IIRC One Of The Main Reasons Kerry Lost (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:13:10 PM EST
    was because the Soccer Moms voted for Bush. IOW he lost the women's vote.  They didn't seem to worried about Roe vs Wade then and I don't think they will worry about it in November either. The Republicans do a great job of educating their voters on of the impact Republican control of the judiciary.  IMO the Dems have not.  When canvassing in 04, my mentioning SCOTUS as a reason to vote for Kerry was generally met with blank stares and complete lack of understanding by most of the people I talked to about this issue.

    Parent
    Once again (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:20:03 PM EST
    we're just uninformed, otherwise we'd vote for Obama.

    Parent
    To be fair, I was at the event (5.00 / 3) (#160)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:44:24 PM EST
    that was billed as Kerry's major speech on women's issues.  It was packed, with many media there.

    So I watched and watched to see what media did  about it.  Most did nothing, a couple of networks gave it a couple of minutes.  Not that it was a great speech; it was Kerry, after all.  But it made good points, and it got a great reception from us.

    I especially remember watching the media pretty faces and crews covering it, mostly men.  They were bored, they lived up to their moniker of the chattering class, and they covered it like a joke.

    Some media women were there, and they just seemed nervous being assigned to the story.  I recall that one gave it a good straight report, but then the screen went back to the anchors -- a woman as well as a man -- who just sort of laughed about it, with that quizzical "who cares" look.  And then the screen went to sports or something.

    Btw, I also remember well that this was one of the too-typical times in too many Dem campaigns with bad handlers, as Kerry was late enough to miss the best news hour -- clearly a time planned well, but these candidates have got to get staffers that keep them on time (and listen to those staffers, as much or more often the problem, so I hear).

    I also never will forget getting to meet Teresa Heinz Kerry, who is a kick, and how she handled the very organized hostile anti-Kerry troops in my town at another event stacked against them by local Repub officials who gave free rein to the crazies.  Her husband handled them well, but with his too-typical cool.     Heinz Kerry did not lose it but got them good with her improv'd lines.  Love her, wish she could be out there for Clinton now.

    Parent

    What if Obama picks a woman VP (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:06:04 PM EST
    that is not Clinton?  Would that make up for anything?

    For me it depends on who it is - I can't think of anyone as good as Clinton, off the top of my head.  But right now anything less would seem like just insincere pandering to me.

    Wouldn't Make Obama More Desirable To Me n/t (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:14:00 PM EST
    It would be an insult (5.00 / 10) (#85)
    by stillife on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:14:53 PM EST
    Female political candidates are not fungible.

    McCaskill? Sebelius?  Pelosi?

    Puh-leeze!

    Parent

    Short answer (5.00 / 7) (#86)
    by joanneleon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:15:23 PM EST
    No, it won't make up for the past behavior, IMHO.

    Parent
    And (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by joanneleon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:16:20 PM EST
    in my opinion, it's as clear as day that his VP will be Richardson.

    Parent
    Help us all (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:22:58 PM EST
    If that's the case - Richardson is a doofus (and I say that as someone who had Richardson as her first choice when this whole mess started forever ago).

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by Steve M on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:24:15 PM EST
    Maybe Obama supporters will be satisfied with a Clinton/Bob Johnson ticket.  What do you think?

    Parent
    Or maybe Clinton could just pick some other (5.00 / 6) (#108)
    by derridog on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:46:06 PM EST
    black man to be her VP? Wouldn't that be good enough for the Obamamaniacs?  After all, he'd be black.

    Parent
    how about samwell on the bottom of the ticket? (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by boredmpa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:55:49 PM EST
    snark
    possibly not work safe
    doublesnark especially, if you're in PA

    personally I prefer samwell, i mean why not celebrate the characterizations of liberal men?
    And he's from chicago too, if i recall.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 4) (#123)
    by sas on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:21:08 PM EST
    he can't just pick another woman....

    can you be bought off that easily?

    Parent

    No (4.90 / 11) (#93)
    by cmugirl on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:21:51 PM EST
    As another poster on this site a few weeks back put so eloquently, and if I may paraphrase here - it's not the idea of any old uterus being on the ticket - we like this woman.

    Parent
    It's also interesting to note the wave of (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by Joelarama on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:46:50 PM EST
    excommunications going on at the boy blogs.  I'm not talking just about Kos' infamous "goodbye and good riddance" to Clinton supporters (taking in his sweep people like me who never declared themselves "on strike").

    The circle of progressives and Democrats who are "off the bus" (or under the bus) has become progressively wider: Taylor Marsh, Goldberry, then MyDD, then Paul Krugman, then Clinton Kossacks . . . now we're seeing the same statements about Jeralyn and BTD, uprated by some of the more prominent enforcers of group think.

    It's not unlike what is happening more widely among Democrats.  The "creative class" (ugh) has forgotten the lessons of the 80s and 90s, and has forgotten to respect Democrats who are not like them.  It's Dukakis all over again.  

     

    Just yesterday ... (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Cassius Chaerea on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:55:06 PM EST
    they were after Katrina vanden Heuvel. Apparently she's now a Clintonista, despite The Nation having endorsed Obama and her just posting an editorial agreeing with his "bitter" speech. But she didn't pay enough lip service to Hillary's inherent dishonesty, so now she's off the bus. Most of the commenters in that diary didn't even know who she was.

    Parent
    It's Left Freeperstan over there. nt (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by Joelarama on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:10:42 PM EST
    that's sad! (none / 0) (#175)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:20:25 PM EST
    I loves me some Katrina VH. I'm glad she's fighting the tide, though.

    I read a story in the L.A. Times today about Mayhill Fowler's getting death threats from Obama supporters for posting her "bitter" story last week about Obama's S.F. fundraiser.

    In the many post-mortems that are written about this election in the years to come, I hope at least a few take on the thuggery and rampant sexism that we've witnessed. As others have said in this thread, I knew it was out there--but I never expected to see this level of anti-woman vitriol coming from Dems.

    Parent

    "Just not this woman" (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by zebedee on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:16:52 PM EST
    Of course, the "creative class" females have no trouble finding a creative way to justify their hostility to Hillary. Invoking all the RW talking points, they'd love to see a woman president, just not this particular one. Which begs the issue, which one and when? Is there anyone on the horizon between now and, say, 2020 that would be as ready and more acceptable.

    Unfortunately I suspect that a younger and more overtly glamorous woman would be more appealing to these so-called progressives.

    Are you sure (none / 0) (#174)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:14:10 PM EST
    she'd stay more glamorous?  I was thinking this morning what Hillary must have to go through every day to look well turned out.  Hair--he just combs his.  Make up--he just has to shave.  Clothes--Michelle (or a surrogate) probably coordinates them and keeps them looking nice.  Stockings--no way!  Shoes--his probably don't hurt, and the heels won't break.

    Parent
    Just a reminder. (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:24:59 PM EST
    Skip the cursing here please. It the rules and they seem to work out well. And just because RR's said it, does not make it repeatable. Thanks.

    Oops (none / 0) (#137)
    by Grey on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:55:37 PM EST
    I thought quoting was allowed; my mistake, and it won't happen again.


    Parent
    The rule (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by Steve M on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:13:32 PM EST
    is at least as much about office profanity filters as it is about civility.  Unfortunately, the sort of profanity filter that reports to your boss that you're reading naughty stuff on the Internet doesn't have much understanding of context.

    Parent
    An interesting article (5.00 / 0) (#150)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:25:07 PM EST
    by Ms. Fortini.  She swoops in from great heights though, judging feminism's progress from an upperclass POV.  Women from all over know that sexism exists.  But who cares what the everyday woman thinks about sexism, about being catcalled, about some things being called "girly" or about other women freely being called any number of sexist names?  Nobody does.  Not TPM - let us all REMEMBER the huge diss TPM gave to the woman (I forget her name right now, sorry) who wanted to write about female voters throughout this campaign.  So women vote quietly, and remain uncovered by the media.  And some people act surprised.  Well well.

    On second thought (none / 0) (#164)
    by lilburro on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:48:23 PM EST
    this article is pretty simplistic.  In terms of offering an explanation of why women back her so strongly, it doesn't, at all.  It's obsessed with the trials of professional women.  Those trials exist but the women that come out for Hillary aren't just professional.  When will the creative class do more than write about itself?

    Parent
    It always surprises me (5.00 / 3) (#167)
    by Lora on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:54:48 PM EST
    Then Hillary Clinton declared her candidacy, and the sexism in America, long lying dormant, like some feral, tranquilized animal, yawned and revealed itself. Even those of us who didn't usually concern ourselves with gender-centric matters began to realize that when it comes to women, we are not post-anything.

    Dormant?!  I encounter sexism every day of my life (except possibly on those exceptionally rare days when I don't see a TV, computer, movie, radio, newspaper, magazine, or billboard).


    Obama's not worried (5.00 / 0) (#188)
    by kmblue on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:29:25 PM EST
    about the women's vote.
    As we have seen, he thinks it can
    be bought with a kiss.  (ugh!)

    More than 30 women have run for president (4.83 / 6) (#146)
    by Cream City on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:19:59 PM EST
    in our history.  And every one of them has been hit by sexist crap -- Clinton has just gotten farther, so has gotten far more, so that more of us see it now.

    But that is evidence to me that much of this is not at all about Clinton.  I actually have met three of the women who have run for president, including her.  And every one of them was worth more than a thousand of the boyz on the blogz and on the screen we see now, more than most of the men in the media and in Congress we have now.

    These women presidential candidates have ranged from liberal to conservative, left-wing to right-wing, near-saints to free-love sorts.  In every case, the concern trolls throughout history have said, well, I would vote for a woman but not that woman.

    No woman and few men today have earned the record to run for president that Hillary Clinton has.  If not this woman, who?  If not now, when?  Those are the questions to ask.  The answers are telling -- and not about Clinton.

    Shirley Chisholm (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by caseyOR on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:06:23 PM EST
    I had the great honor of casting my first presidential vote for the Honorable Shirley Chisholm. That was 1972. My parents and everyone else in my life voted for McGovern, and they were all stunned that I didn't. It is the only time my vote has not gone to the De. nominee.

    Parent
    Here's (4.66 / 3) (#120)
    by sas on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:19:31 PM EST
    my attitude...

    Screw you frat boys...I don't need you....I don't want you....I don't care about you....you are nothing to me.....

    Now, don't ask for my vote - 'cause there is nothing you can do to get it.

    That was an excellent piece (none / 0) (#6)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:16:52 PM EST
    by Kevin Drum.

    A bit of self-awareness at last from the Boy Blogosphere?

    I don't think the piece itself (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by nemo52 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:15 PM EST
    was by Kevin Drum;  a 39 (?)-year old woman wrote it, after noticing that she wasn't as postfeminist as she had believed she was.  I think he is quoting her piece on his blog.

    Parent
    Oops! (none / 0) (#59)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:50:58 PM EST
    Multitasking is not my friend. ;-) My bad.

    Parent
    Read the Comments (5.00 / 7) (#47)
    by BDB on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:47:06 PM EST
    Some are quite good, but then there are those like this, from Al:

    It's much less remarked that an awful lot of liberal women are appalled at how Hillary has been treated during this campaign and that some of them might stay home as well if she doesn't win.

    In what way has Hillary been treated that you consider appalling? If she was not so willing to do anything and say anything to win and more of a uniting charamastic post-partisan speaker like Barack, she wouldn't be treated this way. Unfortunately liberal women are low information voters, so it's no wonder they get upset at the the slightest criticism of Hillary.

    I'm hoping it's parody, but given so much of what I've read like this, I don't think it is.  And the number of commenters who seem to feel the need to declare that Hillary has not, in any way, been subject to sexism or misogyny is just weird.  One can presumably admit the sexist attacks against Clinton and still vote for Obama.  I'm not an Obama supporter, but even I could come up with positive reasons to support him that do not rely on painting Hillary as teh evil through sexist attacks.  So I don't understand the need to deny they exist.  Psychologists adn socioligists are going to have a field day with this election for generations.

    And then there are the folks who have apparently never read an exit poll:

    Many young voters will stay home, or be out having fun, regardless of who wins the nomination. The risk is with the lower income, usually marginalized voters who have become energized by Sen. Obama's campaign staying home. Their support for Sen. Obama scares the Wall Street Democrats and Republicans, who would prefer these voters either vote for the candidates the elites have chosen or stay home.

    Yes, that's Clinton's general election problem, she can't figure out how to get poor and working class whites to vote for her.  Oh, wait...

    I'm beginning to remember why I read so few comment threads these days.  

    Parent

    Heh. (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:50:19 PM EST
    I do think that first comment was parody, although the fact that we can't tell doesn't speak well of the toxic atmosphere in general.

    IMHO, the reason some Obama supporters can't admit that HRC has been attacked because of her ladyparts, is because they themselves don't really support Obama. They are only anti-Hillary. They themselves can't think of a positive reason to vote for him, nor have they ever tried.

    Parent

    While I hate the title troll, Al (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by jerry on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:04:17 PM EST
    Al has always been the Official Troll of the Political Animal blog.  If Al is not present, it's almost always okay to add your own troll as a pseudo Al, and let others try to figure out if you're Al or a pseudo Al.

    What's interesting these days are how so many comments there include statements like:

    "I never thought I would agree with Al, but I think we do need to look into Clinton's murder of Foster...."

    Parent

    What I never figured out (5.00 / 6) (#87)
    by madamab on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:15:45 PM EST
    was how she could be both a lesbian AND Vince Foster's lover. :-p

    Parent
    the theory to slinging mud... (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by white n az on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:32:38 PM EST
    is to toss enough and hope that something sticks.

    Thus it never really matters if theories are directly opposed to each other, you simply adopt the most convenient theory at the moment.

    Admittedly, CDS rules are very convoluted but the predicate is early and often, not that any need be accurate.

    Parent

    Sorry for the Spelling (none / 0) (#52)
    by BDB on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:48:28 PM EST
    Socioligists?  That's just embarassing.

    Parent
    BTD (none / 0) (#15)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:23:52 PM EST
    what's up with the continued push of this "Creative Class"?  just wondering....

    They self identify that way (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:25:42 PM EST
    who? (none / 0) (#116)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:11:51 PM EST
    all obama supporters?  i'm just a little lost on the topic. thanks

    Parent
    The creative class defined (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:30:20 PM EST
    The creative class is a class of workers whose job is to create meaningful new forms. The creative class is composed of scientists and engineers, university professors, poets and architects, to name a few. Their designs are widely transferable and useful on a broad scale, as with products that are sold and used on a wide scale. Another sector of the creative class includes those positions which are knowledge intensive. These careers usually require a high degree of formal education.


    Parent
    which of course applies (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by DandyTIger on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:52:04 PM EST
    to a lot of people including me. But since the kool-aid drinking pro Obama folks took on that name for themselves as a way to distinguish a demographic of people for Obama. Of course it's hard to not use that term in a way that isn't elitist. Which begs the question, why did they start using it in the first place. Perhaps Kerry has an opinion on that. Snark.

    Parent
    I'd like to know when a net-nerd became a (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by nycstray on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:04:30 PM EST
    became a 'creative'. I find it offensive.

    Heh, maybe I'm just an over-sensitive female artist  . . .  ;)

    Parent

    Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:08:54 PM EST
    Yes, most of these guys are about as creative as my shoe.  Very funny.

    Parent
    Apparently, (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by nemo52 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:35:48 PM EST
    backing Hillary sucks all the creativity right out of you!

    Parent
    Great story (none / 0) (#163)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:48:13 PM EST
    And you probably weren't trying to prove your stuff by dominating the stallions, either.


    Yeah, the mine is bigger than yours (none / 0) (#176)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:27:27 PM EST
    contest isn't one I get to enter. Of course, the horse always wins that one. Heh.

    Parent
    Great Story, Indeed!!! (none / 0) (#186)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:20:42 PM EST
    Thanks for sharing that - and what a totally cool life!  I love horses (and "wrangled" a couple of mini horses today when I went to see my horse - they had gotten out of their pasture.  Teehee!  They are so cute, and were no problem to get back.  Tee only problem is that I have really bad knees, and am just getting over knee surgery.  Typically, the stable owner, who had rescued them from an abusive owner, came home just as I was getting back to the barn with them.).

    As to the post by this just-clued in guy, all I can say is, "NO FREAKIN' DUH!!!!"  I might also add, I don't think most women thought we were in a post-feminist world - I think men just wanted to CLAIM we were so they wouldn't have to deal with their sexism (or women their internal misogyny).  Frankly, I thought things had gotten worse in the past 10 yrs or so, not better.  That young women haven't a CLUE what we went through to get them even Title IX is telling and sad.  I think most young women are not taught women's history, certainly not recent history, and it shows.  They have no idea how hard many of us fought for the things they now take for granted...

    Anywho - so, yeah - pretty telling that the blogger is just NOW getting that Hillary has been getting slammed by the media, her opponent, the DNC...Getting slammed by Obama and even people like Jon Stewart for having a beer - something Obama did recently, too, and no one said a WORD abt it (DOUBLE STANDARD).  And the insults hurled at her are familiar to a lot of women, so yeah - speaking for me, I take it pretty personally.  And it makes me even more committed to getting Hillary elected - not just because she is a woman, but because she is a BRILLIANT woman, and the best candidate for president PERIOD.  IMHO.

    Parent

    Alienating Women Voters (none / 0) (#171)
    by Cal on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:02:53 PM EST
    What a great discussion.

    medical specialities (none / 0) (#190)
    by SAINTIXE56 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:41:36 PM EST
    I do know I am a member of the group
    men can work longer hours in theatres, sorry this is a physical fact , nothing to do with brains
    men dont get pregnant and dont have the time spent in nursery, nothing wrong with that but then you get bypassed.
    my husband is a consultant, I am a gp ; he has been great in times to help me with the kids, i did my share when he carried on.
    people do not-period- realize the sheer physical strength some positions require, I have almost fallen asleep in theatres wheras he was happy plodding along.
    My stamina was not good enough, it is not letting down sisterhood, when one is tired, one is tred. and men are stronger than us.

    And of course (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by kenoshaMarge on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:37:25 AM EST
    all women have the same degree of stamina as do all men.

    I've worked rings around most men I know most of my life. I never considered whining about not having enough "stamina" because I was a women. I just got on with it and if some job was too big or just too heavy I asked for help. Just like a man does when the job is too big or too heavy.

    Parent

    This is nonsense (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by dianem on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:23:35 AM EST
    And if you're a doctor, you should know it. SOME women have less stamina than SOME men. Overall, though, women tend to be very good at tasks requiring stamina as opposed to physical strength - better than men. As for taking time to have babies - many women don't. And even if they do, this is no excuse for not hiring them. Men take time off to care for babies, too, and there is no reason in the world that men can't take more of the responsibility for raising children. Many already do.

    Parent
    Husband is consultant, SAINTIXES56? (none / 0) (#206)
    by Elizabeth Blackwell on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:26:37 AM EST
    Where are you working and where did you train?  Neither consultant or gp are common usages in the states.

    As for your point about women not having stamina. You  must be very young. Any woman who got into medical school in the 60s and 70s was both smarter and stronger than most of the men.  They didn't get if they weren't the first and they didn't stay if they weren't the second.  I can still out-stamina most, if not all, younger men in the OR.  Some of it comes with practice.  Some with bloodymindedness.

    Babies?  Worked until the last 2 weeks, except for the last who came early, and returned 2 weeks later.  No more than a long vacation which many male physicians take also.  Not saying you have to do this, but if you're in solo practice it may be necessary - and quite possible. Women who go home to one or two toddlers after a birth work just as hard. [If you live in a small town the patients will come and knock on the house door.]

    I personally know women in every surgical subspecialty including ortho and cardio.   Every one of them is just as technically adept and able to perform all the surgical techniques that the men can do.  

    Don't tar a whole group with your personal  preferences.
    There's a word for such generalizations.

    Parent