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St. Barack Obama

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

I have sworn off calling rabid Obama supporters cultists. It is mean, divisive and not fair to the 95% of Obama supporters that realize Obama does not walk on water. But I must admit some Obama supporters sorely tempt me:

I don't recall past campaigns where one candidate (in this case Clinton) devoted pretty much all her resources into examining tapes and transcripts to find awkward phrases that could be used to fan fears about a the opposing candidate. I don't know. But I do know this. I'm glad my candidate [Barack Obama] is not the one who is relying on tactics like this to win to win the Presidency.

My gawd. The sad thing is he really believes this. I end this post now before I direct the dreaded cult word at him.

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    The response to him is so obvious (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:20:10 PM EST
    that I won't even bother.

    Some Pespective Here (none / 0) (#32)
    by msaroff on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:33:52 AM EST
    This is MJ Rosenberg, who posts at TPMCafe, and has taken to using non-descriptive titles, because you know from the subject matter what he will say.

    His writings have no bearing on reality.

    Parent

    What is wrong with TPM? (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by bjorn on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:22:35 PM EST
    Why even give this guy space?  Didn't someone tell him a blogger at Huffpost broke the cling-gate story?  Plus, get a better picture of yourself dude!

    LOL - naive (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Prabhata on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:23:28 PM EST


    Incurably " idealistic" (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Fabian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:25:10 PM EST
    And I think I'll stop there.

    Parent
    Obama Didn't Have To Examine Current Tapes And (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by MO Blue on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:24:34 PM EST
    transcripts. He just recycled all the right wing talk points on Clinton. Not to mention the recycled Harry and Louise ad on health care.

    I was surprised (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by cmugirl on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:25:27 PM EST
    I read the comments to this post on TPM, and most take him to task for it - even the Obama supporters.

    my god (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Salo on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:46:31 PM EST
    Like the last 20 years of the Media echo Chamber didn't already do that to Clinton!

    haw haw.

    Aw jeez (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:54:18 PM EST
    if he and his fellow Obamans hadn't spent the past several months trashing me and my candidate and calling us every name in the book, I might even feel sorry for this poor fool.

    BTD (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by pattonbt on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:07:46 AM EST
    You are absolutely right, 95% of us have no false illusions about who are what Obama is.  But there is an equal number of pro-Hillary supporters who are in the exact same vein as you describe and many of them are here on this site (as the 5% Obama-ers have infested DKos).

    Id like to see all sites do a better job of policing the despicable on both sides.  I think we let our support of our preferred candidate stop us from shouting down our own haters and irrationals and hence we end up with these echo chambers where the nastiest stuff is said, egged on and applauded as fact.

    I mean what innuendo people will twist and what logic people will torture to drive up their faux outrage is amazing.  Neither Obama or Hillary are saints or the devil.

    We have two great candidates where unfortunately one will have to lose, when either will win against McCain.  And the problem is that both camps know this so the stakes are high.  This is probably both these candidates only shots at the presidency and both probably believe its a slam dunk.

    As to the gist of your post I think both sides and their supporters are scouring everything they can.  I cant wait to see the post mortem on this primary and the impact youtube has had on it.  As much as I hate politics as usual, its politics as usual for a reason, because the prize is the ultimate so people will fight to win.  Thus they will look for anything to use against the other.  So yes, I believe the Clinton campaign is doing this and I equally believe the same about Obama and McCain.

    you're welcome to your opinion, of course, (none / 0) (#35)
    by kangeroo on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:09:12 PM EST
    but i totally disagree.  and unlike you, whether or not i agree with him, BTD has an excellent record--and therefore infinitely more credibility--for making calls for fairness or civility on both sides.

    i think clinton has exercised an enormous amount of restraint in this election; indeed, i think she's a much better person than i am for it.  obama, by contrast, has exercised little to none--citing and spreading false, divisive, misleading, and outright deceptive things about her at every opportunity in an attempt to besmear and denigrate her character.  and she hasn't returned the favor, bless her heart.

    i've never seen anybody here suggest that hillary walks on water, or that she's perfect, or that she hasn't made mistakes, or that she hasn't lied.  and i don't see anybody here pushing you out or insulting you for expressing your clear bias, like i've been at dailykos.  so please don't compare us to dailykos--frankly, i find the insinuation insulting.

    Parent

    and you are welcome to yours (none / 0) (#36)
    by CST on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:42:38 PM EST
    See WillBFair 2 posts down and I think you will understand a little more.

    I am not suggesting Clinton has run a bad campaign, or that talk left is anything like daily kos (I never go there for that reason), but to suggest that the insults and bias are completely one-sided is a little dishonest.

    Parent

    i agree with you. (none / 0) (#37)
    by kangeroo on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:22:39 PM EST
    the insults and bias are clearly not completely one-sided; i have no problem acknowledging that.  in fact, i'm grateful to jeralyn and BTD for checking my conscience occasionally and reminding me (every time they delete one of my comments) how easy it is to devolve into incivility.  

    but for those of us who have been repeatedly maligned, attacked, threatened, personally insulted, and shoved out of other forums for months--merely for defending character assassinations on HRC--with zero regard for decency or facts or fair play, or for our personal histories or who we are as individuals, you could say it's, um, a tad difficult to turn the other cheek.  

    so i accept your assertion that both sides' supporters have engaged in insults and bias.  what i can't accept is the suggestion that the damage wrought by those supporters is anywhere near equal, or that their candidates are anywhere near equally at fault for encouraging reprehensible behavior in them.  to suggest as much would be to mock reality.

    Parent

    OT (none / 0) (#38)
    by pattonbt on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:52:09 AM EST
    Like the screename....any tie to down under land?

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#39)
    by pattonbt on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:59:49 AM EST
    I would disagree with this part of your comment:

    "i can't accept......that their candidates are anywhere near equally at fault for encouraging reprehensible behavior in them [their suppoerters]"

    I think both candidates themselves have been above the fray for the most part on the personal attack side and I dont think either of them have been directing their supporters to act in this manner, especially their supporters out here on the web.  So in a techincal sense I do believe both candidates have been equal in that neither of them have 'encouraged' the reprehensible behavior.  And for the most part I think they have been equal in taking to task their direct campaign surrogates who get out of line.

    As for us on the web?  We are totally out of control and they want nothing to do with us - rightly so.

    Parent

    "Neither Obama or Clinton are saints... (none / 0) (#40)
    by esmense on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:05:46 AM EST
    or devils." But one candidate is running a campaign that claims he is a saint (a new and better type of politician who inspires hope, faith and devotion because he is different from and much much more pure than all those evil, petty, divisive ones) and positioning his opponent as the devil --   "hoodwinker", "bamboozler," (characterizations he uses routinely on the stump), liar, racist, "do anything say anything," war mongering, mercilessly out to destroy good (him) in her cold, calculating, relentless drive for unearned power.

    The other candidate is running on experience -- 35 years of pubic service -- caring about, learning about (in unusual depth and breadth), dealing with and achieving often incremental, but solid, success on important policy issues. And, many years spent in the pressure cooker of political life enduring and surviving the brutal, vicious, amoral political assaults that are part and parcel of any effort to bring real political change. (Note to Obama supporters; real change does not happen without resistance, most often, brutal resistance. Go for "unity" and all you'll get is lip service, not change.  Going truly for "change" means having to tolerate being hated and well prepared for attacks. After change is accomplished you may get unity -- because the opposition will now find it useful to deal) Clinton concedes she is imperfect and has "baggage" -- but believes she is the best prepared for both the general election campaign and the presidency. She has critically questioned her opponents' policy and political experience and questioned his political judgement and performance. Her campaign  been hard hitting and sharply critical and challenging of her opponents campaign themes and statements and has challenged him to be more explicit and substantive -- but has never suggested that her opponent's emotional rhetoric was meant to "bamboozle" and "hoodwink." voters  Her campaign has not attacked his personality, his personal character, or gone anywhere near his family (the Obama campaign has planted people in the audience to embarrass Chelsea Clinton with questions about her father's infidelities, etc.)

    So, neither is saint or devil, both are sharp elbowed pols. But here is the difference as I see it; one campaign, in addition to the candidate's unique biography, consistently relies on demagoguery; demonizing the other in very personal and dishonest ways, courting voter anger, distrust and paranoia, positioning his opponent not as an opponent but as an enemy of the good while positioning himself as the pure savior, above the fray and outside the worldly corruption of Washington. The other campaign is running on the candidate's policies, record, experience, knowledge of the voters and their needs, personal grit and her belief that, as flawed as it, and she, may be, hers is a more experienced and substantial record than her opponent's.

    In politicians I prefer the second approach to the first -- because it straight-forwardly presents an argument I can accept or reject in whole or in part. It makes assertions that can either be proved or disproved.

    But demagoguery is something I can't forgive. It panders to the worst in us and presumes that emotion and trickery, rather than a reasonable argument is the better way to get my vote. The man who feels he has to trick me into giving him my vote is unlikely to gain more respect for me -- or more honesty -- once in office. If this is the way he campaigns it is also how he will govern.
     

    Parent

    Refreshing (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by allpeopleunite on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:20:45 AM EST
    It's so nice to have found this blog and put it in my reader. At least I've found one blog that is on the Left but not on their knees for the Obama camp and criticize both candidates and hold neither as holy.

    I have no such qualms (3.00 / 2) (#7)
    by BigB on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:26:32 PM EST
    I will gladly call them cultists.

    actually, (none / 0) (#8)
    by cpinva on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:37:44 PM EST
    the word "stupid" comes quickly to mind. you can't fix stupid.

    I don't want to insult people in cults (none / 0) (#9)
    by ruffian on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:39:42 PM EST
    by calling this guy a cultist.  So I'll go with tragically misinformed.

    Why not call him a cultist? (none / 0) (#10)
    by catfish on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:45:12 PM EST
    What's so bad about that?

    I saw this around January. I'll admit, people did not react well to the 'c' word, and I've stopped using it. But that's what I see!

    Ohhhh, the stoopid, it hurts (none / 0) (#13)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:52:01 PM EST
    and at TPM?  WTF?!

    Rosenberg has been (none / 0) (#14)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:52:40 PM EST
    virulently, even hysterically over the top since the beginning.  He's really an embarrassment to the site, even an Obama partisan site, IMHO.  Good to hear he was taken to task by at least some of the commenters.

    I think it is just a (none / 0) (#16)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:55:31 PM EST
    snark.  He wants to do a "funny'.

    ugh. (none / 0) (#17)
    by mindfulmission on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:55:35 PM EST
    I would say that something like this would be said by somebody who was just naive and ignorant.

    But Rosenberg is not either.

    So that means he is just being plain deceptive.

    And I say that as an Obama supporter.

    Instead of calling me a cultist (none / 0) (#18)
    by magster on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:57:54 PM EST
    You can now call me a proud 5 percenter.

    As the debate draws nigh, I'm starting to suffer PPP intoxication.  Clinton will lose on Tuesday.

    LOL. Proud 5%. I like that. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:00:26 PM EST
    Cultist-American (none / 0) (#30)
    by Zee on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:12:04 AM EST
    "Clinton will lose on Tuesday. "

    Wow.  Koolaide is the only explanation.

    Parent

    Walks on water (none / 0) (#22)
    by sef on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:27:21 PM EST
    I would slightly disagree with you on Barrack.  He does walk on water, but when he does he sinks up to his ankles.

    Just kidding, Barrack is merely the best thing since sliced bread.

    ::tic::

    Wow (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:27:54 PM EST
    TPM has stooped pretty low. Good things things change, I am sure that he will become popular again after the nomination is decided.
    Any attempt to bash democrats after the nomination, would be basically GOP.  

    stealthy (none / 0) (#24)
    by uppity kitty on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:58:57 PM EST
    "examining tapes and transcripts"

    The deaf-blind are quite disenfranchised voters in this scenario.  Hopefully, they are not bitter, or gun owners.

    To take a cue from Bar Bush (none / 0) (#26)
    by OxyCon on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:31:51 PM EST
    ...don't waste your "beautiful mind" on that lost cause.

    It is worth noting... (none / 0) (#28)
    by jr on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:28:50 AM EST
    ...that the defining moments of Obama's campaign have come when he made grandiose statements on America ("Yes, We Can" and the Race speech), and the defining moments of Clinton's campaign have come when she made contrasting statements with Obama (3 A.M., "Commander-in-Chief threshold").  A lot of that is a product of the media setting the narrative, but when the postmortem is done on this primary those will be the narratives that stick throughout history, and not without some cause.

    Ill-informed quote you cited, nonetheless.

    another disgruntled clinton (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:56:21 AM EST
    appointee