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Courage

By Big Tent Democrat

We have certainly had our differences this campaign season, but this is a great post by Oliver Willis.

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    Courage? (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by TalkRight on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:37:45 PM EST
    Would it take courage for a black person to vote for Hillary?

    In the primaries? (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:40:07 PM EST
    That is a question.

    Parent
    social scorn (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by TalkRight on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:45:55 PM EST
    criticizes the article The Social Pain of Blacks Who Back McCain
    because of the extreme social scorn they will face from their left-wing black counterparts.

    It would had taken courage by Oliver Wills to acknowledge the basic premise of that article was right on target.

    Lots of black people have openly acknowleged that they are under tremendous pressure from other black people to go with Obama.. that is Social Scorn not?

    Parent

    Not only blacks (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by TalkRight on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:53:43 PM EST
    it takes courage for even the White voters to come out and openly tell that they will vote for McCain, because it will always be construed as a Racist [that's what Chris Mathews called democrats in NH (in primary) .. think what he will say to republicans in Nov]

    Parent
    I think it does (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by tnjen on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:59:45 PM EST
    I've listened to enough black Hillary supporters to come to the conclusion that it does take courage -- especially if they are open about it. Then again, depending on where you live and who your peers are it can take a lot of courage to support Hillary period. A lot of Hillary supporters are silent supporters because they know it's ok to deride her in the most awful manner publicly and they don't want to hear it. There have also been enough random incidents where women in particular have been attacked over bumper stickers or cussed out that it's a legitimate thing to not want to wear your support on your sleeve.

    And back to black support, look it what happened to Tavis Smiley. Also Cornell West (an Obama supporter) got reamed for daring to criticize Obama for not honoring MLK.

    Parent

    Courage? (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Spike on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:24:23 PM EST
    I'm an Obama supporter. And there have been times when I've chosen to be silent about it, too. I worked as a mid-level staffer in the Clinton White House for eight years. A couple of times over the last year I've gathered with former colleagues for a drink after work. I just keep my mouth shut when the inevitable campaign talk begins. I love to debate politics but I just don't go there with these folks. But somehow I don't think that I'm the only silent Obama supporter among the group.

    Parent
    You seem to be in (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Leisa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:53:47 PM EST
    a minority position to me in several ways, Spike. However, I wonder about what you are actually trying to say...  there are plenty of former Bill Clinton staffers supporting Obama, so why are you feeling closeted?  Are you a mole or something?

    I do not get your sentiments at all... It is cool to be for Obama... If you support Hillary, you are  __, ___. or ____...

    Are you sensitive to the idea that some people think that Obama supporters are overly passionate and therefore not thinking critically of their candidate of choice?  I do not get it.  BTD supports Obama and I think we all respect him for his views...  he is fair about his opinions and I hope you will be too.

    Parent

    Courage? (5.00 / 7) (#49)
    by BRockNYLA on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:25:50 PM EST
    I am a Black person who is staunchly for Hillary. I don't think it is courageous to vote my beliefs, but it does get heated at times.  Politics is pretty much off the list of topics with my family at this point.  However, I am actively engaged in a list server discussion with the Black alumni of my very white, elitist NE college.  Let's just say it has been interesting.  The passions are definitely running high, but most of the discussion is respectful.  On most days I am the only Hillary supporter participating.  Only twice has someone dared question my "Blackness" for supporting Hillary.  Recently one person tried that old Obama trick of calling the Clinton campaign out on "racial tactics".  Those charges will never stand as long as I'm a part of the discussion.

    Parent
    thank you, brocknyla. (5.00 / 0) (#112)
    by kangeroo on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:39:48 PM EST
    i'm grateful to you and every single AA person who's been willing to stick up for hillary in this election--often against the worst kind of treatment.  my heart is full for you.  thank you.

    Parent
    Do you think (none / 0) (#63)
    by tnjen on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:58:07 PM EST
    ...that your experience is any different because you're talking in highly educated circles? Most of the confrontational stuff I've heard about regardless of race has come from workplaces and joe average on the street deciding to yell at people.

    Just as an aside, I always think it takes courage to stand by your convictions when you're outnumbered so I think you may not be giving yourself enough credit. Standing up comes more naturally to some people but it's still something to praised and admired when there's an easier way out.


    Parent

    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by BRockNYLA on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:43:25 PM EST
    I'm not sure if it is a class thing.  I have a Hillary logo on my iPhone.  Inevitably someone on the subway will notice.  Most of the time they just look at me and smile.  The guys in the mailroom at my office building that I am friendly with are all pro-Obama, but give Hillary "props" for sticking it out and "kicking his a**" in OH and TX.  

    The consistent problem I am aware of is the fact that most all these people (from my fellow alums to the mailroom guys) are convinced that Obama's lead in the number of states won and the pledged delegates mean he should be the nominee.  Namely, if Hillary wins they will all think it was stolen.

    So, let's hope she wins the popular vote!  Better yet, let's work extra hard to make sure she wins the popular vote!  

    Parent

    definitely (5.00 / 0) (#97)
    by tnjen on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:57:14 PM EST
    She definitely needs the popular vote and I think she'll get it. PR is going to deliver, IMHO (knock on wood) -- folks on the island take politics seriously and I think the turnout is going to be big there. And KY, may not give up the delegates but she's definitely looking at a popular vote boost there. I also think that if we target Eastern N.C. we may be able to do a lot of surprise good there by just upping the turnout. IN is also open to huge dividends with some work. So yeah, with some investment and shoe leather I think the popular vote is within reach.

    I'm glad to hear your co-workers are giving credit where it's due. Unfortunately, the folks in my peer group are so pro-Obama that I rarely hear anything nice. I was going crazy until I found this site and a few others.

    Parent

    True Courage (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by blogtopus on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:29:27 PM EST
    Is to do something you know is dangerous and you do it anyway, even if it scares you to do so, because you think / know it is right. This can be applied across all walks of life; if Rev. Wright said the things he said in the company of 30 blackwater troops, that would be courage.

    I don't know if she's scared, but Maya Angelou is definitely doing something she knows might knock her out of the good graces of many AAs. She follows nobody's drum but her own, God bless her.

    What isn't courage: Following a 'Tide'. Admittedly, I don't consider myself courageous because I support Hillary, because she has the facts and the strength on her side. I would give kudos to Obama supporters for supporting an obviously less experienced candidate with little to offer, but since they have such strong voices on their side, they have very little to fear.

    Parent

    i agree. there is no (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:09:21 AM EST
    courage unless you are afraid.  in today's political environment, my heroes are brocknyla (above), sugar (of sugar n spice), tavis smiley, maxine waters, michael nutter, sheila jackson lee, charlie rangel, stephanie tubbs jones, and other AA's supporting hillary.  you know, the ones who've been harassed non-stop with nasty phone calls and letters, dirty looks and insults, and in some cases even death threats, for their decision?  

    these are the people who have my gratitude and respect.  not the ones who face zero political risk--and indeed, have been actively enabling or even inflicting the harassment on their peers.

    now certainly, not all AA supporters of obama's are in this latter category.  but those who are certainly don't qualify as courageous in my book.  i don't care what color your skin is; if you're a bully, then you're ultimately a coward.

    Parent

    courage is not dependent on being afraid (none / 0) (#122)
    by kimsaw on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:09:21 AM EST
    Courage is when others offer that you should be afraid and you're not because you are choosing to do what you believe.

    Smiley and those like him are making a choice based on how they perceive a set of facts, its others that offer they should be afraid in order to intimidate. You go into battle knowing you can win, being afraid that you won't win can be part of your downfall. Head held high without nose in the air. Smiley, Jackson and others like them, show us that quality.

    Those who offer up the fear are the least courageous. They are dangerous because they link their courage to intimidation, that's not leadership that's tyrannical. It's a shame that those who fought for civil rights are now being intimidated by their own. It boils down to power once again. Generationally it appears we have learned nothing and actions repeat themselves, the arrogance of power is not racially exclusive. Change it's not, just a reorganization of what's wrong.

    Parent

    I have a book to suggest (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:51:53 PM EST
    that is more-or-less on topic. The Paradox of Representation by David Lublin.

    Parent
    Amy Holmes... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:42:16 PM EST
    would tear him up on CNN - perhaps he can get an invite to defend his notions.

    It does sort of prove the whole attitude that Hillary must be a racist just because she has the temerity to run against him for the nomination.

    No it doesn't (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:45:07 PM EST
    Your comment is nonsensical, imo.

    Parent
    do you believe that... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:05:33 PM EST
    the racist branding came from things said by Hillary?

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:06:11 PM EST
    I think BTD (none / 0) (#83)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:52:45 PM EST
    misunderstood your point.  Not sure I understand it myself, but I know you don't subscribe to the "Hillary is a racist" crap.

    Parent
    Funny (none / 0) (#71)
    by Oliver Willis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:26:35 PM EST
    Holmes is one of the ubiquitous black cons I was referring to in my entry.

    Parent
    that's what I'm bothered about... (none / 0) (#101)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:06:29 PM EST
    Say what you will about Amy Holmes, she holds her ground and never flinches.

    She is one of the best talking heads on cable network television news these days. She speaks her mind with conviction - lets it rip so to speak. She's articulate, educated, young, attractive and much to my disappointment, on the other side.

    In fact, the one thing that I have never seen her do is to defend an idealogical position that I can tell that she doesn't agree with but I had no knowledge of her when she worked for Frist when that would have been a likely requirement. I'm not sure that she has an equal these days gender/race irrelevant.

    Now to your blog posting...the argument you are making in essence is that every black must support Obama.

    Rather than go through what I was going through (and deleted twice now), I simply say this...Jackie Robinson was the first to play in the Major Leagues. His teammates found out that he was a good guy, a good teammate and someone who could help them win. It led to the integration in all sports.

    Conservative blacks are the Jackie Robinson's of politics...they are paving the way for blacks to be acceptable and find acceptable something other than the Democratic party. This is not an entirely bad thing.

    Ultimately, I think it works against Barack Obama to so thoroughly dominate the black vote because it allows white voters to simply not vote for him because he's the black candidate. I am discounting all racial motivations which of course do exist but people who will only vote out of racist motivations are lost to us. I do believe that as Barack Obama has come to dominate the vast numbers of black voters, his percentages of white voters drop.

    That said, I support Hillary but I started as an Edwards supporter, never really found myself believing in Obama and found as time went on, it became impossible to buy in.

    Parent

    Jackie Robinson? (none / 0) (#104)
    by Oliver Willis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:20:10 PM EST
    Gimme a break. To compare black cons to Jackie Robinson is a heck of an insult to Robinson. He broke down barriers and helped bring a sport into the modern era. Black cons help to prop up the old school.

    Parent
    well I agree... (none / 0) (#106)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:29:33 PM EST
    that my characterization didn't do much for the legacy of Jackie Robinson but the parallel is there.

    I find your terminology 'black cons' offensive from the outset because dismissive politics is ultimately a no win.

    These talking heads are people, nothing more nothing less. If the color of their skin is truly immaterial, then how can you characterize say Amy Holmes any differently than say...Karen Hanretty?

    Parent

    What about (5.00 / 6) (#7)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:45:49 PM EST
    Oliver says:

    only on the left would it even be plausible for a black candidate to be a presidential contender.

    I think Colin Powell was a plausible presidential contender for Republicans.

    And Rice is a plausible VP nominee now. (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by MarkL on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:50:26 PM EST
    I Agree (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:54:10 PM EST
    I once thought very highly of him but he disappointed me in his actions in the Bush administration. I wish he had shown more courage/integrity and maybe as the President, he would have.  

    Parent
    I don't (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:59:33 PM EST
    did you believe... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:04:29 PM EST
    that Obama had a plausible chance to win the Democratic nomination a year ago?

    Parent
    Absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:05:52 PM EST
    knowing that the early voting states... (none / 0) (#59)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:40:04 PM EST
    IA - NH - NV - SC

    3 out of 4 were essentially void of blacks?

    I didn't see it coming.

    Parent

    It never occurred to me (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:15:42 PM EST
    to question that white Democrats would vote for a black candidate. I was very surprised when the fact that he won Iowa was talked about as remarkable because whites voted for him.  

    I've learned a lot since then.  

    Parent

    what I found out... (none / 0) (#107)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:41:12 PM EST
    this election cycle was that states that had very few blacks had very low racial consciousness. States with larger populations of blacks also have greater racial consciousness which seems to work against Obama once he became identified as the black candidate that the black voters unified behind as a virtually solid voting block.

    To be honest...I'm pretty removed from racial consciousness because I've lived in Arizona for 25 years. I grew up in Chicago where I was very race conscious.

    Parent

    that's not the whole story (none / 0) (#109)
    by tnjen on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:04:39 PM EST
    It's part of it. But there are lily white areas in a lot of these "mixed" states that aren't going the all white no-race conscious route. I think there's more to it. IMO, we're falling for race as an explanation when there is much more at play like economics and values. What's been hidden by Obama's success is that black voters tend to share similar values with their white counterparts regionally and socio-economically speaking. Black voters and white voters in the working class voted similarly in past elections. What's new is black voters voting with wealthy whites instead of whites in their regional and economic peer group.

    Parent
    I have always thought that it would... (none / 0) (#25)
    by Exeter on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:57:59 PM EST
    ...be easier for a woman or minority to be elected president if she were Republican.  It's kind of the same "hedge your bets" thinking that goes into the perception that a Southern Dem would be more electable because they have to be moderate.  

    Parent
    I thought this was a pretty outrageous (none / 0) (#52)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:29:17 PM EST
    statement too.  I mean, why would one think a Black man or woman who is republican could not be nominated? I think I missed the real point of the post.

    Parent
    I Think (none / 0) (#72)
    by Oliver Willis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:27:24 PM EST
    Powell was a plausible media candidate. It says something that it never went beyond an idea.

    Parent
    You may be right (none / 0) (#85)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:58:20 PM EST
    but I always understood that his wife, who has some mental health issues, was very much opposed to the idea.  And since we've come to know Powell better, it's fairly clear he would have shrunk away from proclaiming himself on many issues.

    But I think if he had run, he would have been swept to even the GOP nomination by acclamation and would have won against any Democrat put up against him.

    And I think he would have for some of the same reasons I believe, anyway, that Obama is so hugely favored among white liberals.

    My guess is he's been sitting there watching the Obama movement and smacking himself upside the head for never having taken the plunge himself.

    He'd have a much harder time now because of his intimate identification with Bush and Iraq and torture and etc.  But before all that happened, he was widely admired by most Democrats as sort of, um, post-partisan.


    Parent

    Agreed, the reason given (none / 0) (#89)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:06:37 PM EST
    for his not running has been his wife's issues and well-being.

    Parent
    Is no one worried that voting against Clinton (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:46:56 PM EST
    would be sexist?  (ha ha, I phrased that as a question as a little rhetorical joke to myself)

    I think that one thing this race might show us is the growing strength of the Hispanic voting bloc, which has the numbers to supplant the aa bloc in political importance.

    Considering how vilified and bullied aa's have been in this primary season, from John Lewis to Tavis Smiley, I agree it would take more courage to vote against Obama.

    I got these questions... (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by kredwyn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:09:26 PM EST
    when I pointed out that I wouldn't be voting for Libby Dole if she ever made it through the gauntlet to the GE. Someone asked "why not?" after all...we were both women...female solidarity and all that.

    My answer was simple...

    Her basic world view didn't even come close to matching mine.

    Did that make me less of a feminist? I don't think so.

    I don't see why people can't just vote for the person they think will be the best POTUS.  

    Parent

    Exactly!! I look at the past performances (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:23:51 PM EST
    being in horse racing and breeding. It doesn't matter if it's a filly or a colt, whether it's a grey or a bay, it's all down to the past performances.

    Past performance tells me what to expect in the future, and Obama is a front-running allowance horse who won a stakes race against no competition. He looks great in the morning works, but tends to fold in the stretch. This does not make him Derby material.

    Hillary is a great handicap horse with two good stakes wins under her belt and a great come from behind style. I think Hillary is the John Henry of politics. She does well no matter where you put her and she can run on all sorts of tracks.

    Look at the past performance for a glimpse into the future.

    Parent

    holy crap (none / 0) (#53)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:31:44 PM EST
    I know nothing about horses, but what you wrote sent a thrill up my leg!

    Parent
    Here are some links (none / 0) (#73)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:28:40 PM EST
    that will explain who and what John Henry was..
    Newsmaker of 2007
    Photo gallery scroll down to the link to John Henry, Honoring the life of a Legend.

    I think you will see why I compared Hillary to him. And he beat out a popular preacher for the Newsmaker of the Year award the year he died. So maybe Hillary can take KY after all. They do love a champ who comes from behind down in KY, they really do. :D

    Parent

    No! I loved your analogy! (none / 0) (#80)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:46:42 PM EST
    Really admire your passion.  I think what you said was very apt.

    Parent
    Kathy, you are (none / 0) (#87)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:01:13 PM EST
    one of the funniest people on the Intertubes.  Do these things come to you instantly, as they seem to, or do you sit around and work them out?

    As my family used to say about my very witty aunt, you think funny. (That's a compliment.)

    Parent

    i second that. :) (none / 0) (#114)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:28:13 AM EST
    Good question (none / 0) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:59:17 PM EST
    I don't think the election will (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:51:37 PM EST
    be decided by race. I wouldn't vote for someone just to establish a historical marker, be it race or gender.

    If Obama is the nominee, I think the question will be whether he's ready to lead, and has the experience to lead the country.

    And Obama is not the nominee yet.

    The nomination is probably (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:52:27 PM EST
    being decided on the basis of race.

    Parent
    Wow. (none / 0) (#20)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:54:49 PM EST
    isn't that a racist comment (none / 0) (#21)
    by TalkRight on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:56:00 PM EST
    HA!!

    Parent
    Snark I hope? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:58:56 PM EST
    Um, no (none / 0) (#24)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:56:46 PM EST
    Really? (none / 0) (#94)
    by Spike on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:46:44 PM EST
    So you are saying that if Obama wins the nomination it will be because more than 50% of primary voters were African American?

    I've heard Clinton supporters say that the only reason that Obama is ahead in pledged delegates is because of his superior organizing in small Red caucus states, most of which have very small African American populations.

    I'm not sure I follow your logic.

    Parent

    No, I am not (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:58:22 PM EST
    When one demographic group votes for you 8 or 9 to 1, and constitues a large portion of the Demographic party, you'll tend to do well. Obama only has to convince about half of white Democratic voters that his unity shtick makes any sense, and he's a sure winner.

    I do not consider caucus states, as they a) distort intentions through public voting and b) suppress turnout.

    Obama tends to only really do well with white voters when they are suburban latte liberals. (Like me, incidentally, but he lost me last October with his "embrace the change" concert tour).

    Parent

    I agree with this (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by pie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:54:35 PM EST
    If Obama is the nominee, I think the question will be whether he's ready to lead, and has the experience to lead the country.

    That's not what some people want to talk about, however, because it obscures that question.

    I certainly agree it will be (none / 0) (#103)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:19:13 PM EST
    the question in the GE.  My wonder is that it has not been the question in the primaries.

    Parent
    It's impossible to read that (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:56:23 PM EST
    without thinking about how it fits within what we've seen this primary.

    If you're looking at a post-racial society, it occurs to me that the rich/poor dynamic would eventually supercede the black/white dynamic.

    Which means that there would be less uniformity amongst the AA voting group.  A low income black person voting republican would be no more surprising than any low income voter.

    Anyway, I think it's foolish for any poor people at all to vote Republican.


    I would like to see such an essay about (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by hairspray on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:56:34 PM EST
    changing the world by voting for a woman.  Recently I read in an Indonesian newsreport about the excitment by the populace over Obama. A feminist in that article countered with the " a woman would make a huge difference in our world." She went on to say how disenfranchised women were in that part of the world and how Hillary had been so evident over the years advocating for them when no one else was. So there you have it: Shall we have a black man in America as a beacon to Africa/Asia (where there already are a preponderance of men leaders) or a woman, where there are almost none.

    hairspray, I keep trying to make that point (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:03:08 PM EST
    In Iraq, we-American tax payers-are paying mullahs to "keep the peace."  These are the mullahs who beat women for not wearing scarves, refuse to let them work and encourage "honor" killings where women are burned alive.  In Afghanistan, young girls are "opium brides" where ten and eleven year olds are given to old men in trade for the family's debts.  In Egypt, female genital mutilation is seeing a resurgence.  All over the world, human trafficking has victimized women and children again and again.

    Over half the world's population is comprised of women.  Can you imagine what kind of message it would send to the word--to Iraq, to Afghanistan, to the Taliban--if a WOMAN was democratically elected to be the defacto leader of the free world?

    Someone needs to write an article about the 'courage' of women who vote for Clinton despite the criticism and ostracization coming from the chest-thumping, all boy sections.  If you want to change the world, how about showing 52% of its poluation-black, white, asian, and every other color of the rainbow-that they can LEAD.

    Parent

    That is the change I have been waiting for! (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:24:11 PM EST
    As someone who was raised by strong women and the father of daughters, as well as sons, I see electing a wonderfully qualified woman as the most dramatic change.  Rise Hillary!
     

    Parent
    kudos to you, ralph, and to (none / 0) (#116)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:55:41 AM EST
    all the men here who support hillary.  i love you guys.  :)

    Parent
    and the Dem Rep of Congo, where (none / 0) (#115)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:37:40 AM EST
    women are being tortured, mutilated, and gang raped en masse with impunity to "keep the peace."  funny how women are often the first ones sacrificed to keep the so-called peace, huh?

    Parent
    Kathy wrote a great (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by eleanora on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:13:11 PM EST
    comment on this topic awhile back. I saved it to re-read when I'm feeling low and like the fight may not be worth it.

    Re-reading Hillary's Beijing speech that women's rights are human rights, I can't think of anyone more suited to be the first female President of the United States.

    "The great challenge of this conference is to give voice to women everywhere whose experiences go unnoticed, whose words go unheard. Women comprise more than half the word's population, 70% of the world's poor, and two-thirds of those who are not taught to read and write. We are the primary caretakers for most of the world's children and elderly. Yet much of the work we do is not valued -- not by economists, not by historians, not by popular culture, not by government leaders."


    Parent
    thanks for reposting that (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:21:31 PM EST
    God, she's so brilliant.  Talk about making a powerful speech.

    Parent
    I need to work on that one awhile... (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Leisa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:00:03 PM EST
    there was something about the tone.  I just do not see it as a great article.  

    I know some black republicans that I admire and respect.  They will vote for McCain in the fall and they are not fools and it does take courage for them to vote for McCain.  It takes courage for them to be republicans.

    So, I really disagree with the assertion that black conservatives who will vote for McCain are fools and lack courage.  To me, this article is close to calling them an Uncle Tom or a house slave.  So, to me, it is hypocritical and shows that they will be scorned, as the author of this article so unconsciously told me with their own poorly disguised words.

    And a reason why black conservatives who help to prop up barriers to progress aren't martyrs but fools.

    I think this also says so much for reaching across the political divide.

    I know that black people in my community have been scorned for supporting Hillary.  It has been very hurtful to have their friends and church members turn on them because of their choice in candidate.  

    Thanks for sharing the article and giving us a chance to share how we interpret it.


    Mind Your Own Goddamned Vote! (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by JoeCHI on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:10:27 PM EST
    I happen to believe that people have the right to exercise their right to vote any way, and, for whatever reason they so choose.

    Further, they are entitled to exercise that right without being slandered as fools, traitors, racists, et al. by those who wrongly elevate themselves to the role of an all-knowing minor deity.

    That was the feeling I got reading the article. (none / 0) (#42)
    by leis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:19:15 PM EST
    I cannot fathom why ANYBODY would vote republican. I don't draw the line at any particular color and think, they more than anybody, should not vote republican.

    Parent
    Ah... (none / 0) (#45)
    by pie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:23:05 PM EST
    But that's not how this primary has been reported, either in the media or the blogs.  It's the balck man against the woman, and people have been thrilled to exploit that.

    Anything to keep from talking about qualifications.

    Parent

    Black (none / 0) (#46)
    by pie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:23:49 PM EST
    but then you knew that.

    Parent
    i totally agree. (none / 0) (#117)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:05:27 AM EST
    if you're only allowed one option, your "right" to vote becomes pretty meaningless.  anybody who's willing to bully, coerce, deceive, or otherwise unconscionably manipulate people into narrowing their own options--under the guise of deciding what's in their own best interests, of course--is always going to be a red flag for me.  it's the precursor to abuse of power.

    Parent
    I believe that one of the reasons (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by misspeach2008 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:10:36 PM EST
    many of us think that the caucus process for choosing a Presidential nominee is a bad idea is that it is so ripe for bullying.  Imagine being an African-American who supports Hillary Clinton at a caucus.  It might take courage. But why would it be unreasonable for an African-American to prefer her health plan, her more solid support for abortion rights, her stand on sex ed?

    Why is it unreasonable for an African-American to support the ideals of the Republicans? Something must have drawn Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, Condi Rice, etc. to the party.

    Just as not all women share the same political ideologies, why would African-Americans all think, act, and vote the same way? And why should anyone find fault with a person voting on issues instead of race, age, or gender?

    Well in light (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by lilburro on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:34:52 PM EST
    of the voter depression article BTD wrote today, could we say that the negative campaign against Hillary by the media and the Obama campaign has depressed her organizational and electoral turnout?  

    I realize Oliver Willis didn't write anything about Hillary supporters in his post, so this is technically OT.  But I wonder if we should take the unhinged rabidity of the OFB more seriously, outside of the rotten smell it's spreading across the blogosphere.

    Yes, Yes, Yes (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by boredmpa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:55:20 PM EST
    Blacks shouldn't be expected to vote for a candidate they think is full of crap just because they share the same skin color.

    A lot of fear, uncertainty, and doubt was spread about the clintons early in the campaign--and when that happens people increase the pressure on others to vote as a block.  Without the race-baiting (fear/outrage), I don't think the primaries would have been as bad.  Disclaimer: I'm coming at this from my queer/feminist experiences.

    As long as there is progress to be made there will be pressure for minorities to vote as minorities...but that tendency can be gamed, limits diversity (and partnering with other groups), and creates a double standard for minorities.  Drives me bonkers when someone tries to define my own personal ethics for me.

    Disloyalty (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by boredmpa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:13:23 PM EST
    I'm done responding to individual comments on this thread.  Instead I'll post a top level comment before I get too irate.

    I honestly think many of you have missed the boat and are expressing discriminatory views and double standards for minorities.

    What right do you have to demand that minorities vote as minorities?  That voting non-democratic is disloyal or stupid for certain minorities?

    By telling minorities that they must vote as minorities you are defining their ethical values for them, limiting their behaviors, and dehumanizing them.  You're also setting them up for easier exploitation because they're a "reliable voting bloc".  And I don't care if you are a minority, you're still dehumanizing individuals in your group by telling them they have no choices but your ethical frame.

    We are all individuals, and the hard work that has been done lets us vote and act as individuals in this country.  We are all able to vote for our personal beliefs and interests.  That's what was fought for and that's what freedom is about.


    Freedom = choices. (none / 0) (#90)
    by oldpro on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:17:45 PM EST
    Yup.  You took the words right out of my mouth.

    That is the whole point of the women's movement in spite of all the stupid and foolish things that others said about it.

    Choices.  Freedom.

    True for everyone.

    Parent

    hear, hear! well put. (none / 0) (#119)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:18:38 AM EST
    Thanks for the link (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Oliver Willis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:30:05 PM EST


    Thanks for the post (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:01:12 PM EST
    Well, I'm not sure I agree with this: (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:39:03 PM EST
    On paper, many of these voters should be Republican voters,

    That would require a complete shift in the alignment, and it's likely that many more whites would be Democrats, in that case.

    In the event, it's something to chew on.

    That is a fair point (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:40:35 PM EST
    I disagree with that.

    Parent
    That is interesting (none / 0) (#13)
    by lilburro on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:52:08 PM EST
    I am curious as to what exact issues form the social conservative segment of AA politics.  It's perhaps sort of similar to the large amount of Catholic voters that vote Dem - so much of Catholic theology is social conservative, yet Dems often garner many Catholic votes.

    On the other hand, you have (as Krugman/Bartels pointed out) the latte liberal class that votes on social issues first (but liberal social issues).  They send their kids to private schools, but want to support public schools.  I'm glad Krugman brought it to public attention that it's not always a matter of economic self-interest in either party.

    Parent

    Log Cabin repubs (5.00 / 0) (#17)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:53:48 PM EST
    make me livid.  Of course, there the stupidity is pretty clear cut, where your very existence is something the GOP actively campaigns against.

    Parent
    No offense (none / 0) (#51)
    by boredmpa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:28:25 PM EST
    But that is a discriminatory view that perpetuates double standards for minorities and keeps them from succeeding as individuals.  Such a view undercuts the progress that allows people to identify and vote on issues not related to their orientation.

    Please consider that you are effectively saying that minorities owe minority allegiance above all other issues.  

    I've seen this constantly in the queer and feminist community, and I disagree with it at a fundamental level; it creates more work for minorities, regulates their ethics, and limits their ability to be seen in larger society.

    Parent

    Economic versus social (none / 0) (#81)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:50:33 PM EST
    A fair number of gay men, at least, around my age have always been Republicans, and still are.  They are fairly affluent, and resigned to/comfortable with their particular place in society as gay men.  They don't think gay marriage is particularly important -- to them, anyway -- and generally work in fields or companies where they're well accepted, so they don't feel personally much of the sting of homophobia.  So they vote on the basis of their economic interests, which is pretty straightforwardly Republican.

    Just because you're gay doesn't automatically give you a liberal mindset.  These friends of mine are genuine conservatives on most social issues, as well as economic conservatives.  So although they don't like the Republican Party's homophobia, it's way down on the list of things they feel are important and that directly affect their lives.

    Needless to say, we don't talk politics much...

    Parent

    I have two older, gay friends (none / 0) (#88)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:02:50 PM EST
    exactly of the type you describe.  They don't care about gay rights because they are affluent and powerful enough to buy their rights.  They wouldn't deign to worry about the "great unwashed."

    Actually, you're right.  They really are republicans: so long as I'm still wealthy and get special treatment, why should I care about anyone else?

    (they, of course, were briefly democratic at the height of AIDS, but once it became chronic and manageable, they were back in more climate-for them-republican waters)

    Parent

    Indeed, see (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:53:46 PM EST
    Courage or Temerity? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Exeter on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:15:33 PM EST
    I actually really like Barack Obama, but I'm angry with him for putting all of the goodwill chips he has earned inside the Democratic Party on the table now instead of 2012 or 2016. I knew that if he ran now, he would likely win the nomination because of his rock star popularity, but I also believe that he simply does not have the resume to be President. Not even close. This will not only be an issue in and of itself in the general, but it is a blank slate that will also allow him to be much more easier defined.

    I think if you realize that you have a reasonably good chance to get your party's nomination, and you realize that this candidacy had added importance because of the historic nature of electing the first African American, you have a responsability to only run if you believe you can win the general.

    And, to be honest, I have a similar feeling about Hillary, but I cut her a little bit more slack because of her age -- she might not have ever got another shot at it. Obama on the hand, is still a young man and he should have waited.

    ...Disregard above comment... (none / 0) (#58)
    by Exeter on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:36:36 PM EST
    ...Sorry, I thought BTD was referring to something else, nevermind.

    Parent
    Looking past race, gender and religion... (none / 0) (#43)
    by mcdtracy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:19:42 PM EST
    I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

    Voting on the basis of race, gender, or religion as a core issue is morally suspect for me.

    I don't mind soeone preferring Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama on the basis of a difference in character. The race (for me) seems to be boiling down to issues of character. And it dramatically close.

    In my heart I may be judging Hillary negatively on the basis of gender. I think about it but I keep moving back to issues of values. She's a cold judgmental and calculating politician (for me) and frankly I don't think she has run enough campaigns to see that this won't play well with democracts. They tend to value empathy and vision.

    In 35 years she has only run for office twice, I think and she is learning a hard lesson against this young visionary, charismatic upstart. We don't know what he will do once he's elected but we believe it will be different. Like Jimmy Carter... different is enough.

    I don't think he could possibly be as poor an executive as Carter or his campaign wouldn't have been so effective.

    Let's see how the next few primaries go and keep the conversation going.

    "Anyone But McCain".

    If you are referring to her as cold, you (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by leis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:26:26 PM EST
    have answered your own question on whether or not you are voting against her based on gender.

    Parent
    Is "cold" a code word for gender bias? (none / 0) (#61)
    by mcdtracy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:51:30 PM EST
    Is is possible a female can exhibit a cold character? Consider the recent news item regarding Hillary suggesting "Screw 'em". There are many such reports that have surfaced throughout her career.

    But I'll consider the feedback. I try to root out bias in myself and I'm sure I'll never finish learning when I'm not being fair to someone due to my shorcomings.

    Parent

    Yes, cold is a word used to (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by leis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:41:08 PM EST
    belittle women.  Do you her that word being used in terms of men?  Frigid/cold? Strictly for the ladies Ergo;sexist.  And I'm glad you are willing to constantly evaluate your positions perhaps you should extend that to your choice of nominee. And as for Hillary saying 'screw em' about anybody, I'd like a bit more information.

    Parent
    You're not jaded at all (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Regency on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:33:20 PM EST
    Yep, you're judging her character based on gender.

    And you're wrong about her in so many ways I'm actually at a loss where to begin.

    Parent

    Well at least try... (none / 0) (#64)
    by mcdtracy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:58:20 PM EST
    If you have the energy. Pick something to help make your point.

    Frankly, jaded means "Worn out; wearied" and I'm assuming you're being sarcastic and that you mean I'm am jaded.

    Sell me on Hillary's warmth for example.

    When she linked Obama to Ayres adding that they served on a board together I could not beieve it.

    Parent

    Sell me on Obama's warmth (none / 0) (#67)
    by lilburro on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:16:31 PM EST
    Cold is not a word you want to defend when discussing characterizations of female politicans.  We never have to be sold on a male politican's warmth, only a female's.  Scan the newspaper and see how often cold is linked to women, how infrequently to men.  Applying it to Clinton in the very least is insensitive.

    You may not have been touched by Clinton's "warmth," but check out her supporters and the many people who find her very kind-hearted, open-minded, and personable.

    This has already been dealt with in this campaign.  Remember "likeable enough" and how unfair that was?  Defending the characterization of "cold" is equally unfair.

    The Obama-Ayers stuff is true btw.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#69)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:18:27 PM EST
    They hat tipped each other in each of their books.

    He launched his IL Senate campaign at his home.

    Ayers was one of the first contributors to Obama's IL Senate campaign.

    Are those better connections that you can believe in?

    Parent

    There was a positive there (none / 0) (#75)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:31:01 PM EST
    cold judgmental and calculating politician
    Leaving the cold out, because I don't think she is cold. I once would have said the same based upon the MSN, but you can see the warmth in her face. You can't manufacture that. I have actually seen Obama being more colder and would have to say the same for him. You mean, you do not show up in NO or MLK day because you calculate that you should not be seen surrounded by black people?  So that is one thought. And by the way, we sure have to question BHO about the friends he chooses. His judgment is not so good, IMO. I understand where you are coming from, but the quote above really says who you have chosen and that is your prerogative. Yep, we all get to vote.

    Parent
    Here's an example (none / 0) (#92)
    by oldpro on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:36:59 PM EST
    reported by Joe Wilson (google for the whole thing...I'm not with it linkywise):

    "David Axelrod, the top Obama political strategist, for one, knows better. After all, he and his wife were direct beneficiaries of Hillary Clinton's personal kindness and public policy experience when, in the midst of the impeachment trial of her husband, she travelled to Chicago to support Susan Axelrod's efforts to raise money for her foundation, Citizens United for Research on Epilepsy (CURE), established by her after one of the Axelrod children was afflicted with the malady. As reported in the New York Times in April, 2007 (with thanks to eriposte of the Leftcoaster blog for his research):

    `It was January 1999, President Clinton's impeachment trial was just beginning in the Senate and Hillary Clinton was scheduled to speak at the foundation's fund-raiser in Chicago. Despite all the fuss back in Washington, Clinton kept the appointment. She spent hours that day in the epilepsy ward at Rush Presbyterian hospital, visiting children hooked up to machines by electrodes so that doctors might diagram their seizure activity and decide which portion of the brain to remove. At the hospital, a local reporter pressed her about the trial in Washington, asked her about that woman. At the organization's reception at the Drake Hotel that evening, Clinton stood backstage looking over her remarks, figuring out where to insert anecdotes about the kids. 'She couldn't stop talking about what she had seen," Susan Axelrod recalled. Later, at Hillary Clinton's behest, the National Institutes of Health convened a conference on finding a cure for epilepsy. Susan Axelrod told me it was 'one of the most important things anyone has done for epilepsy.' And this is how politics works: David Axelrod is now dedicated to derailing this woman's career.'"

    Parent

    wonderful example (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by mcdtracy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 02:01:09 AM EST
    Thanks for the story. It's powerful.

    Parent
    Just another example (none / 0) (#93)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:39:50 PM EST
    of a former ally stabbing her in the back.

    At the risk of getting yelled at for being a feminist, I will say this--again: Axelrod would have never done this to another man.

    Parent

    Sure he would, Kathy. (none / 0) (#100)
    by oldpro on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:01:17 PM EST
    Axelrod is for sale.

    In this case it's not misogyny.  It's business.

    Loyalty isn't expected across the board...people on the political makie are expected to look out for themselves and their careers.  It's only when they lie and try to have it both ways that they really get into trouble...ie. Richardson.

    Parent

    So They Owe Her Forever? (none / 0) (#105)
    by Oliver Willis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:23:21 PM EST
    David Axelrod is allowed to have a career even if it offends Sen. Clinton, and perhaps while he may like Sen. Clinton he thinks Obama would make a better president. This is the same attitude of entitlement that got Sen. Clinton into her present pickle in the first place.

    Parent
    "entitlement" (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:45:03 PM EST
    Now that I am sorry really grates on my nerves when people say that.  I don't think she had a sense of entitlement, to have worked towards something is not entitlement.  Would you say that your side now assumes that Obama is entitled to the nomination?  

    They are politicians and doing politics.  To constantly attribute all that evil to one and all that goodness to another is rather simplistic.  

    I think Axelrod is in it for Axelrod, he wants to be a kingmaker.  He is a hired gun and wants to prove he is better than Rove.  I don't trust any of those guys as far as I can throw them.   Forgive me for not having such awe for Axerlord, Mr. Astro turf.

    Parent

    Of course not....I hope you (none / 0) (#111)
    by oldpro on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:30:07 PM EST
    were responding to Kathy or someone else and not to me!  Read my #100 posted 1/2 an hour before you wrote this...

    Good grief.  I was giving an example to the poster who asked for one...an example of Hillary's 'non-cold' 'warmth!'

    Parent

    "owe her forever"? (none / 0) (#120)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:41:05 AM EST
    um, no.  how about a little decency--you know, unlike this catalog of crap, much of which i've seen obama bloggers recklessly repeat and perpetuate with abandon?  and exercising a little, um, self-restraint and integrity, that would be nice too.

    Parent
    Huh? (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by pie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:35:56 PM EST
    Obama is visionary?

    We all want America to be better.  Obama isn't telling me anything I don't already know.

    You've got to be able to get it done.

    Visionary.

    Good grief.

    Parent

    Like the firemen running the country ad (none / 0) (#76)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:33:13 PM EST
    He makes it all seem easy. Clean water and air? Yep.It makes me LOL because it is funny but the sad fact you can not just snap your fingers and it gets done. You have to figure out how to get from A. The idea to Z, the completion.

    Parent
    shorter mcdtracy... (none / 0) (#66)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:16:16 PM EST
    WWTSBQ

    Parent
    Hillary ran for the Senate twice (none / 0) (#68)
    by Boston Boomer on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:17:29 PM EST
    in NY and is now running her third formal campaign.  She was very active in her husband's campaign as well.  I do not find her to be "cold" at all.  In the debates, she comes across as very human and caring.  She has demonstrated how much she cares about people over the course of her adult lifetime.  On the other hand, I have never seen any signs of empathy toward others from Obama.  He seems to focus only on himself and how other can get him elected.


    Parent
    Are you laboring under the impression (none / 0) (#91)
    by oldpro on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:24:46 PM EST
    that candidates are in the habit of running their own campaigns?

    Parent
    Where is the "Great"? (none / 0) (#55)
    by pluege on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:33:52 PM EST
    but this is a great post by Oliver Willis.

    I'm not getting it. Wills makes the claim 'blacks are socially conservative' and the only evidence he offers is the BS that they're socially conservative because they go to church.

    A) there is no equation between people going to church and being socially conservative or republican. Anyone who knows and follows the teachings of Jesus would draw exactly the opposite conclusion, that church-goers should be the most tolerant, liberal people on Earth... not the oppressers, accusers, and intolerant hags in America that are pawned off as people of faith in the republican, US corporate media hype.  

    B) there is no evidence that I'm aware of, and certainly no evidence offered by Wills that Blacks go to church more than any other group in America. Based on the lack of opportunity to Black children and families in inner cities and rural areas, and all the difficulty for steady family life that portends, I'd be real surprised if Blacks had a higher than average church-going rate.

    Blacks have been steady Democrats because republicans have been doing Blacks dirty for a very long time. Period.

    The few Blacks that become republicans are not brave, courageous, or anything else except opportunists, selfishly disloyal to the interests of Blacks in general.  


    Great Or Not (none / 0) (#77)
    by Oliver Willis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:33:22 PM EST
    The argument I'm making isn't that church = social con, but black Americans are more socially conservative than the white liberal base of the Dem party. Look at issues like gay marriage or the overall acceptance of homosexuality. There is a reason what Bill Cosby is saying is resonating with so many.

    As far as church goes, I point this out because black Dems do go to church more often than the white liberal base does, but the media assumes church = conservative when the most powerful liberal leader this country ever had is Rev. King.

    Parent

    Jello (none / 0) (#82)
    by pluege on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:51:13 PM EST
    The argument I'm making isn't that church = social con, but black Americans are more socially conservative than the white liberal base of the Dem party.

    you're not making an argument at all. You offered a number opinions without evidence (as you have once again). You offer a toss-in of the bogus meme of Blacks being more church-going than others (as if that means anything even if it were true) as your proof of opinion, and now adding that Blacks are anti-gay. Blacks may be more anti-gay than other groups, but there's no evidence here or the original post of that.  

    All in all, the post is unsubstantiated sloppy conjecture. I'm only baffled as to why BTD would characterize it as "great", which given my opinion of BTD is the only reason I read the post, but am now baffled.

    Parent

    Which "white liberal base"? (none / 0) (#84)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:57:54 PM EST
    If you look at demographics and exit polls, I have a hard time believing that holds up everywhere. Especially because "white liberal base" is so diverse.

    Parent
    A lot of "theys" ... (none / 0) (#60)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:44:07 PM EST
    in that article.

    Just shows how far we still are from the "content of character" test.

    Conflating race and gender (none / 0) (#95)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:48:41 PM EST
    On Maher this week AYAAN HIRSI ALI said the following and I agree with her.  This is the idealistic and simplistic mistake both sides made this election.  They are two individuals and should be judged as such.  
     
    But never conflate - it's very risky to conflate the candidates with race or gender. You can be a white male and run for presidency and fail, and that particular president has failed, and we move on. If you run on your color or on your gender and you fail, then it's all black people who fail as presidents, weren't - not good enough--

    This is the problem when we conflate and we attribute all good of that race or gender to the pioneer.  

    This would be courage (none / 0) (#99)
    by ding7777 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:58:53 PM EST
    I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not [vote for a person because of] the color of [his] skin but by the content of [his] character.


    nice! thank you for that. (none / 0) (#118)
    by kangeroo on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 01:15:41 AM EST
    that was a heartening post.  the more who speak up, the less lonely it'll be on this blue island.