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Is Obama Trying To Depress White Turnout In PA?

By Big Tent Democrat

As Jeralyn noted yesterday, the Barack Obama campaign turned sharply negative this weekend. There are a number of reasons why a campaign might go negative. But strangely, I think John Zogby, of all people, may have hit on the reason:

If this small group of white/Catholic undecideds do not vote, Obama can win Pennsylvania if he is able to get out his base of young voters, African American voters, and Very Liberal voters. If those white/Catholics do vote, then they will probably vote for Clinton and she can conceivably meet the 10-point victory threshold that meets pundits' expectations. It looked like she was moving some of these voters after the debate, but today is a different story. Too soon to tell."

(Emphasis supplied.) Knowing he can not win their votes, Obama could be attempting to have these voters not vote at all. This is "politics as usual" of course but it is striking when compared to the rhetoric of the Obama campaign.

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    Apparently, they are borderline already (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by dianem on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:00:41 AM EST
    According to the link, these are a group of Democrats who say they are likely to vote McCain in the GE. If Obama can make them feel just a bit more negative about Clinton, they may stay home for the primary.

    I don't know if it's true (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by dianem on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:02:12 AM EST
    But if this is his strategy, then it's shameful right wing politics. How does trying to depress white Catholic turnout differ from trying to depress black turnout? If somebody were suggesting that Clinton was trying to suppress black turnout, it would be headline news throughout the nation.

    Yes (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:03:53 AM EST
    going negative is a classic way to depress the vote.

    as the Clinton camp should know (1.00 / 1) (#5)
    by po on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:06:20 AM EST
    They do know it (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:08:55 AM EST
    What's funny is some of you fanboys act as if Axelrod/Obama would NEVER stoop so low.

    The fools are you kool aid drinkers.

    Parent

    never said that (none / 0) (#10)
    by po on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:15:54 AM EST
    just wondering why Hillary's folks are so outraged that Obama would have the temerity to point out the banality of the past weeks.  

    not a fanboy and not a fool. just someone watching the wheels go round and round and finding it quite humorous that people apparently believe Obama should respond with thank you, ma'am, can i have another.  

    Parent

    You mean the chutzpah (5.00 / 8) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:18:41 AM EST
    to act as if he is not doing it? He lied about the fact that has campaign has pushed the Bosnia story. You are really drunk with the kool aid.

    Let me make this simple for you - they are both pols engaged in "politics as usual."

    Parent

    and you're shocked why? (none / 0) (#12)
    by po on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:21:42 AM EST
    that's my point.  simple enough for you now.  

    Parent
    I am NOT shocked (5.00 / 7) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:30:47 AM EST
    I am shocked by the fanboys who claim "Clinton is not a Dem" because of her negative tactics.

    You seem pretty dense to me.

    Parent

    I agree with you BTD (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by myiq2xu on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:36:25 AM EST
    but I think the obtusenss is deliberate.

    Anyone who can type in complete sentences can't be that dense.

    Parent

    Banality of the past weeks? (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:48:59 AM EST
    Obama literally freaked out because he got biased questions at the debate.  Never mind that when it actually turned to substance he turned to jello.  He complains of no substance and then when substance comes up he literally runs away.   He did so poorly at the debate he had to distract by brushing Hillary's imaginary dirt off him. Classy and substantive eh?  Please. The man is beyond scared of any actual policy that's why his two faces are: Hope and Change Obama (haven't seen that guy in at least a month) and Belligerent and Arrogant Obama (we've seen him every day for awhile now).

    Parent
    Obama's marquee plank is 'NEW' politics of Change (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Ellie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:51:19 AM EST
    If he's "equally" as scummy as his rival, but she's more experienced, seasoned and better at playing the game as is, by his own measure he's not in her league and has no argument that he is preferable.

    He's shown almost daily that he's like any other pol only worse, because much of his hyped "post-partisan" era Unity / Change / Hope mythologizing isn't matched by his words and actions outside his lofty rhetoric.

    Were he a fraction of what he claims to be, he certainly wouldn't be actively working to depress or impede any group away from the polls.

    Parent

    I think that Obama is proud (5.00 / 5) (#35)
    by Leisa on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:19:37 AM EST
    of the idea that he can behave in certain ways without impunity or scrutiny...  that is why he has told some groups that he is a "good politician"...
    He is just now being called on his duplicitous ways.  He has been negative for months.  His contempt and derision toward Hillary is palpable to me.  
    I think that he  has encouraged hateful and ugly remarks made by his supporters.  
    I first started noticing this in Texas.  Why do SD's have to say negative things about her when they put in their support for Obama?  It struck me as mobster rules, send out your henchmen.  
    When I realized what he was doing and encouraging, it became obvious.  I believe that if he really was the candidate of hope and change and that he was against politics as usual,  this negativity from his campaign and supporters would not exist.  He would have my vote if I did not see hypocrisy and hate, among other things, in his campaign.

    Parent
    Attempting to suppress the vote (none / 0) (#39)
    by Lora on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:24:26 AM EST
    The phrase "attempting to suppress the vote"  sounds like something illegal -- intimidation or purging voter registration rolls or something, not just making negative comments about Clinton.  When I read on, I got it.  However, it seems like quite inflammatory language to say Obama hopes the white female voters of PA won't vote in the primary, so he is going very negative about Clinton in his rhetoric.

    And lest I be accused of being part of the Obama fan club -- I favor Clinton slightly over Obama for the nomination, mainly because I think she has a better shot at winning in November.

    Parent

    phrase was actually (none / 0) (#41)
    by Lora on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:26:36 AM EST
    Obama could be attempting to have these voters not vote at all.

    Not quite so inflammatory.  My apologies.  (Need more coffee.)

    Parent

    Thank you (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:27:29 AM EST
    But actually the title was "DEPRESS the white vote."

    Parent
    DEPRESS the vote (none / 0) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:26:58 AM EST
    Is reading no longer a part of the Obama fan club requirement?

    Accusing of voter suppression is INDEED an inflammatory charge. Obama supporters like Kid Oakland made such an accusation against Clinton with impunity. It is why I have lost all respect for him.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#92)
    by kid oakland on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 04:56:35 PM EST
    I just wrote another positive, fact-based diary on Obama that was recommended at Dailykos and is currently also recommended at MyDD. I am not the evil bogeyman you make me out to be, BTD.

    I specifically think that Bill Clinton's support of the lawsuit that would have closed the satellite caucus sites on the Las Vegas strip was wrong.

    Bill Clinton supported a lawsuit that, had it succeeded, would have COST Hillary Clinton support in Nevada since she won the Strip.

    I wasn't alone in thinking that the Nevada lawsuit echoed Republican "voter suppression tactics;" Josh Marshall made much the same argument in opposition to Bill Clinton.

    Does the Nevada lawsuit have anything to do with MI and FL and "the pledge?" No.

    Hillary Clinton violated the pledge and has taken three different positions on MI/FL. First she said MI/FL clearly wouldn't count and her adviser Harold Ickes voted exactly that way. Second, she said they did count in violation of the pledge and even held a "victory party" in Florida. And third she rejected caucuses in MI and FL and held out for rich benefactors to hold privately funded primaries that would be "revotes" in MI and FL.

    There's no comparison here. There is accountability, however.

    Are Clinton, Edwards and Obama responsible for signing the pledge and accepting those faulty terms from the DNC? Yes. Was that, ultimately, an error that we can regret in this nomination battle? Yes. We can all agree on that. The pledge was based on the idea that we'd have a clear outcome by Feb. 5th. We did not.

    Does this reflect well on the DNC and MI and FL state Democratic parties? No. The DNC and the MI and FL state parties, in particular their legislative delegations, grossly mishandled this.

    But to talk about "voter suppression" in MI and FL as if my position is advocating for suppressing voters in those states is just flat out wrong at best, and a demagogic smear at worst.

    I'm not for what you say I'm for, BTD. I have always been for a negotiated solution that would be acceptable to all sides and pass the significant legal tests that any revote would entail. Barring that, I am for the delegates to the convention to vote to seat MI and FL under some new rubric.

    With the MI and FL state legislatures both having bodies with GOP control, there was never a good chance of achieving a publicly-funded primary for a revote in MI and FL.

    Since Clinton rejected caucuses out of hand (the only fully Democratically controlled and funded option), that meant some kind of privately funded revote was the only alternative for a revote. For reasons of precedent and fairness, I personally am not in favor of a privately-funded primary revote, especially one that relies on John Corzine and Ed Rendell setting the terms. There might have been a solution, however, if all parties had donated the funds to the DNC and come up with mutually acceptable terms. However, realistically, any primary would have had to pass through the FL and MI legislatures which both have bodies with GOP control.

    There is no realistic way that the Democratic nominee was going to be chosen by rules written by Republicans.

    The Nevada lawsuit and MI/FL have nothing to do with one another.

    My position on Nevada was of a piece with Josh Marshall's. Bill Clinton's advocacy of that lawsuit was improper and riddled with inaccuracies. Further, it would have cost Hillary votes in Nevada! We agreed, as Democrats, to hold those caucus sites. Advocating for a lawsuit to close them was a moment of gross hypocrisy from Bill Clinton.

    BTD, you should get off your campaign to smear and defame me and stick to writing about developments in this primary season.

    I'm not perfect, but my positions are nowhere near how you have consistently mischaracterized them.

    We need to come together to find a mutually acceptable solution that works for the voters of MI and FL, but ALSO for the voters in all the other states that followed the rules and where so many millions of voters have volunteered and given their time and money.

    At this point, that solution will likely come from the delegates we've elected voting to terms for seating MI and FL. We should work to make that process happen, not to smear each other and make it impossible.

    Parent

    Yes you are (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:48:33 PM EST
    the bogeyman I make you out to be.

    Your attempts to silence me have failed.

    Enjoy your commenting and writing and whatever else you say you do.

    I know what you have become. It is a tragedy frankly.

    Parent

    First of all (none / 0) (#96)
    by kid oakland on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:58:42 PM EST
    ask the site owner if I'm welcome here before you tell me to go back to DailyKos.

    Second, holding a "victory party" is a campaign event.

    Ask Simon Rosenberg what he thought of that move:

    Having worked on the New Hampshire primary and in the War Room in 1992 for the Clintons, I was present at the creation of the famous "rapid response" campaign style and fierce fighting spirit of the Clinton era. In the very first meeting of the War Room James Carville warned us "that if you don't like to eat sh-- everyday you shouldn't be in politics." So I understand as well as anyone that this is a tough game, not for the faint of heart.

    But there is a line in politics where tough and determined becomes craven and narcissistic, where advocacy becomes spin, and where integrity and principle are lost. I am concerned that this Florida gambit by the Clinton campaign is once again putting two of my political heroes too close - or perhaps over - that line. So that even if they win this incredible battle with Barack Obama they will end up doing so in a way that will make it hard for them to bring the Party back together, and to lead the nation to a new and better day.



    Parent
    Hey, KO, know your audience (none / 0) (#97)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:24:37 PM EST
    The fact that your "fact-based" diary was recommended at DK and that Josh Marshall agrees with you does not add to your credibility here.  I would say, in fact, that the first is a complete credibility killer.  DK members do not appreciate fact-based diaries about either Obama or Clinton, period.

    And secondly, the idea that Clinton and Obama should agree on a plan for Fl and MI is complete hypocrisy and deliberate misdirection on your part.  They are the last people who should have any say in what happens to MI/FL because neither one of them would agree to a solution that disadvantages them.

    The only solution that's fair to the voters -- the voters -- in FL/MI is one Obama will never agree to.

    Parent

    When you write (1.00 / 1) (#99)
    by kid oakland on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:42:03 PM EST
    DK members do not appreciate fact-based diaries about either Obama or Clinton, period.

    You are engaging in a kind of inter-blog battle mentality that I completely reject.

    Josh Marshall, week in and week out, writes some of the best stuff in the blogosphere. I don't necessarily agree with him on everything, nor do I find him to be an "Obama partisan" which I, admittedly, am.

    This was one of his best recent posts:

    I was mulling over the ABC debate this morning and the moderators' claim that knocking Obama with a more or less uninterrupted stream of Swift Boat gotchas was justified by focusing the debate on 'electability'. And it occurred to me that we have now crossed an important threshold where the Republican operative cadre has sufficiently disciplined and trained the press (and more than a few Democrats) that their own role may simply be redundant.

    Think about it. Organized campaigns of falsehoods, distortions and smears used to be something most people thought of as a bad thing, if not something that's ever been too far removed from American politics. Now, however, members of the prestige press appear to see it not as a matter of guilty slumming but rather a positive journalistic obligation to engage in their own organized campaign of falsehood, distortion and smear on the reasoning that it anticipates the eventual one to be mounted by Republicans. In other words, we've gotten past the debatable rationale that journalists have no choice but to cover smears and distortions once they're floated into the mainstream debate to thinking that journalists need to seek out and air smears and distortions on the grounds of electability, as though the mid-summer GOP Swiftboating was another de facto part of the election process like primaries, conventions and debates...

    As I've noted it's pretty nauseating and disillusioning that Sen. Clinton has now also convinced herself that she's providing a service by mounting her own Swift Boat campaign. But she is after all running a campaign.

    In any case, at this stage it's not even clear the GOP slimesters ever have to come on the field. Journalists recognize their obligation to seek out potential Swift Boat tactics and do the job for them.



    Parent
    I'm sorry, but (none / 0) (#102)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:39:25 PM EST
    I find this comment frankly delusional.  The reason I'm here at all is because DK became completely insane with Clinton hatred, and in fact, her supporters were not just harassed and troll-rated and intimidated by the pack of screaming monkeys who make up the DK readership these days, but explicitly told to scram by the great Kos himself.  And I'm supposed to take the endorsement of those readers as some kind of evidence of impartiality or worthiness of your diary?

    Secondly, Josh Marshall most certainly is a strong Obama partisan, and if it is not obvious to you, it is obvious to pretty much everyone else, including his own pack of screaming monkey commenters.  Go Google "Josh Marshall" + kidnapped some time and see how many references you come up with.  He has been heavily slanting his blog, both his own posts on the main page and the other parts of his site, for some time now.  Theda Skocpol?  Good grief.  The fact that he refuses to admit it speaks only to his own strange insecurities (as does his unwillingness to allow comments to his own posts and his vitriolic responses to emails from readers who disagree with him).

    So I repeat, the fact that DKos readers and Josh Marshall agree with you is an automatic credibility killer.

    Parent

    No it sounds something Republican (none / 0) (#45)
    by Marvin42 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:28:06 AM EST
    So to democrats who believe everyone has a right to vote and this is very important, it is bordering on illegal.

    Parent
    Everyone has the right to vote (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:32:55 AM EST
    except for MI and FL, you mean.

    Speaking for myself, this white voter has been depressed for a while now.

    And speaking as a woman, any female of a certain age will take one look (or listen) at what Obama is doing and saying about Clinton and gladly pull the lever for her.

    I didn't agree with the pundits that NH came about because of all the ganging up on Clinton, but I think if you accept that Obama can keep folks at home with his negativity, then you also have to entertain the obverse, which is that his negativity can actually drive people to vote for Clinton.

    (and "you" in general rather than specific)

    Parent

    Hear, hear! (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Lora on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:50:25 AM EST
    Speaking for myself, this white voter has been depressed for a while now.

    I'm with you, Kathy.

    And speaking as a woman, any female of a certain age will take one look (or listen) at what Obama is doing and saying about Clinton and gladly pull the lever for her.

    I hope your vote counts as you intend it to count.


    Parent

    Exactly, not only may he try (none / 0) (#57)
    by bjorn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:53:14 AM EST
    to depress white voter turnout in PA, Obama has refused to count or let MI and FL revote.  That is stealing an election.

    Parent
    Naw, I ain't buying it (none / 0) (#31)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:11:29 AM EST
    It's a streach of creduilty to think that this is anything out of bounds.  I understand why some who read this would be confused by the weak connections between the politics and the conclusions made.  Negative politics us used becuse it works.  My take is that BHO is trying to minimise the damage by keeping his loss close.  Both campaigns have had thier negative monents, but nothing that's been out of bounds.

    Parent
    Out of bounds? (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:12:39 AM EST
    Excuse me, where did I argue that it was out of bounds? This is politics as usual.

    Parent
    It Was Certainly Implied (none / 0) (#38)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:22:58 AM EST
    by "supperssion"  That's normally considered improper.  

    Parent
    Yopu ned to read more carefully (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:25:14 AM EST
    Depress the white vote is what I wrote.

    I agree "suppress" is a dastardly thing.

    It is why I did not use that word.

    Please be more careful.


    Parent

    I mean "depress" (none / 0) (#42)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:26:45 AM EST
    which is the same thing, actually.  I know you'll probably make a big deal about the word supperss/depress.  Either way, it means pretty much the same thing.  I'm not buying it either way.  Both campaigns have had their negative moments. I don't think either can own the issue.

    Parent
    It is NOT the same thing (5.00 / 0) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:33:36 AM EST
    It is outrageous that you think it is.

    Suppression is delberately attempting to block the atempts to vote by willing voters.

    Depression is an attempt to discourage voters from WANTING to vote.

    your comment is specious and outrageous imo.

    Parent

    Whatever (none / 0) (#54)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:43:14 AM EST
    I reject the whole argument.  You're looking with tunnel vision at the language.  I don't believe there is anything remarkable about how his campaign is intended to depress or suppress votes.  You're comments about "attempting to have these voters vote at all" is looking like something out of bounds, not just to me, but other readers as well.  Maybe you can be more clear with your comments if you want less confusion.

    Parent
    I do nthink there is anything remarkable (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:48:33 AM EST
    about it either. It is politics as usual. I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

    Parent
    I'm Saying (none / 0) (#60)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:01:27 AM EST
    i'm not going to try to explain myslef to you.  I think this has become a useless conversation.  I had expected that if something is important enough to post about, then there is some sort of special or remarkable aspect that is being explored.  But you say it's just politics as usual, and I can go along with that.

    Parent
    It was something interesting to (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:21:09 AM EST
    post about. TO someone who likes politics as I do, the political tactics are interesting.

    The contrast with the rhetoric is also noteworthy.

    You seem not to like the post. Skip it then.

    Parent

    I Like Tactics Too (none / 0) (#65)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:39:37 AM EST
    And I've become infected with political addiction during this campaign.  It was difficult for me to see your point in the original post.  It sounded more nefaious ( on O's part ) than it turned out to be.  Yesterday, I was at Taylor Marsh ( or No Quarter, I can't remember which ) and they were going on about some comment from Rev. Wright about when he included homosexuals in his "have the audicity of hope" sermon, as though he was making some sort of biggotted remark.  And I'm thinking that it is we that are being negative even more than the campaigns.  We are ferroting every little minutia from the campaigns and blowing up some big deal out of it.  Sometimes, a big breath would be appropriate.

    Anyway, I don't dislike the post.  I still don't see the connections to the conclusions, but we can agree to disagree.  I can't wait till Tuesday, becuase this is a defining moment in our history, and this vote means everthing to the nomination.  I certainally understand why emotions are running so high.

    My take is HRC wins big and goes on to fight it out at the convention.  National polls are showing that she is making gains from the recent debates and gaffes by her opponent.  BTW, I read with interested your comments about the 'magic' of delegate count.  In that vein, I see this as a very interesting convention, and not at all a forgone conclusion.

    Parent

    No Quarter (none / 0) (#68)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:09:43 AM EST
    can certainly be reactionary, but the audacity of hope thing resonated with me.  As with everything Obama, it's not one or two statements, but the man's history that tells us where he really stands.

    Obama's support of McClurkin, his rejection of Newsom, and now the "audacity to hope for homosexuals" all bring bile to the back of my throat.  Let's throw in the Advocate interview, and it paints a very clear picture of where Obama stands.  And we have to look at these individual events and statements, of course, because, while Obama might claim that "no one has been a bigger advocate" for gay rights than he has, his history belies this claim.  From my reading of the Advocate interview, O sees gay rights as a luxury that he might or might not be able to get to.

    Parent

    I Don't Disagree With You (none / 0) (#69)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:17:22 AM EST
    and you seem to have some knowledge that I don't.

    But how is "audicity of hope for homosexuals" a biggotted remark?

    Parent

    audacity of hope (none / 0) (#71)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:23:08 AM EST
    for homosexuals implies what?  Are you hoping they are accepted and get the same rights that all Americans are guaranteed under the constitution, or are you hoping (like McClurkin) that they will see the light and change their wrongful ways and become straight and proper citizens?

    If you read that a different way, I'd be interested to know your interpretation of the remarks.  

    Parent

    It Not Easy To Know What It Was Supposed (none / 0) (#73)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:43:02 AM EST
    to mean.  It was sort of a strange comment.  But, my take was that, considering the context, he included homosexuals with "hope" for family, etc.  I admit I haven't read the ENTIRE text, but my reaction to the comment would not have been to think it was biggotted.  It was very odd, I admit.

    Has the rhetoric gotten to the point that there are words, names and phrases that simply cannot be said?  I was told that I can't use a candidate's initials when referring to him.  I'm as sensitive as anyone, but the rule makers have gotten out of hand.  We've seen race, sex, sexual orientation and now even someone's name being used to bludgeon those who would address any of these entities.  The rhetoric "police" make any charges without explaining how what we say connects to the accusatoins.

    Well, that's just my take.  I know I'm probably in the minority here.  Maybe I just don't have the recationary gene.

    BTW, I finally got around to following the link to J's post about O's campaign's negative statements.  I heard about this absurd charge yesterday, but I didn't realize it came from his team.  And I think it's a dispicable comment.

    Parent

    As a gay voter. (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by lansing quaker on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:24:28 PM EST
    "Hope" doesn't get me jack all regarding federal tax benefits as a "married" couple.

    So yeah.  "Hope" means bull.  Hillary, as someone who was around for DOMA, saying she would only remove the federal ban plank of it, is realistic and informed to me.

    "Hope" means absolutely nothing, along with the "I've done more..." meme.

    Parent

    I'm not clear I understand (none / 0) (#74)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:58:47 AM EST
    your interpretation of "hope" in that context--are you saying that Wright was charging the listener to hope that homosexuals were able to have a family one day?

    The sentiment is clear to me, and taken with McClurkin and other statements coming out of Wright's mouth, what he is saying is that the listener should "hope" for some kind of cure, or revelation on the part of the homosexual, wherein they choose to embrace a straight life over a gay one.

    Parent

    I Haven't Really Givin An Interp. (none / 0) (#75)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:06:14 PM EST
    that' probably why you don't understand.  I've only said I don't necessarily buy into the one given.  so here goes; when I hear 'hope' in this context, my reaction is to hope for the will-being of the person or persons referenced.  That could, of course mean different things to differnet people.  Rev. Wright might indeed hope that homosexuals "heal" as he might define it.  But I think he just might be sincere in his thoughts, even though you could reasonable disagree that homosexuals need 'healing.'  Either way, I don't think we should call him a biggot based on his comments.

    This is an interesting discussion.  However, I think I've breached my 10 comments/day rule.  We might need to continue tomorrow.

    Parent

    Maybe you are new to politics? (none / 0) (#98)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:31:07 PM EST
    Voter suppression is a very specific term with a very specific meaning and a long legal history.  It is illegal.  It is disenfranchisement.  It is preventing people from exercising their right to vote through intimidation, dirty tricks, etc. (See "Jim Crow" or "Florida 2000")

    Depressing the vote is an, unfortunately, time-honored political tactic which means to so disgust people that they don't want to vote and don't bother.

    There's a HUGE difference between the two, and
    since BTD is very familiar with the political and legal history, as you are not, he was very careful to make the distinction.

    Parent

    BTW (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:13:26 AM EST
    What IS out of bounds at this site is reference to Obama's middle name. Do not do it again.

    Parent
    Are You Serious? (none / 0) (#58)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:53:42 AM EST
    I can't use the man's initials as a shortcut to whom I'm referencing?  We've been using initials from the start.  

    Of course I'll abide by the site's rules, even the absurd ones.

    Parent

    No you can not (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:57:07 AM EST
    Use BO. Or write Obama or Barack.

    No argument.

    Parent

    I wasn't arguing (none / 0) (#62)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:03:45 AM EST
    I said I would abide.

    Parent
    No initials please (none / 0) (#76)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:10:28 PM EST
    I have asked readers not to use his initials since some use it as an insult (BO) -- please type Obama or Barack Obama or Sen. Obama.

    Parent
    That's Exactly Why I Used His FULL Initials (none / 0) (#78)
    by flashman on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:22:59 PM EST
    Indeed, to those of my generation, BO is an insult, although I'm not sure our younger members realize that.  

    I respect your request.  I never intended to use the man's initials as an insult.

    Parent

    When I see BO 1st thot is "body odor" (none / 0) (#90)
    by jawbone on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 04:27:24 PM EST
    so  I know what you mean--I just type out Obama even if is a few more key strokes.

    And I think "modus operandi" when I see MO.

    Parent

    Hasn't he always done this? (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Davidson on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:10:23 AM EST
    Or am I mistaken?  Besides, doesn't the media already have the whole "Everyone, hate Hillary!" theme down?  I don't know how much more they can do.

    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by nell on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:32:28 AM EST
    the constant pounding his campaign and the media engage in every single day does keep her down. But then when the public gets to see her unfiltered, like they did during the debate, her poll numbers tend to see a bounce. She was up by one yesterday in the Gallup poll, while he had been up by 11 one week and holding steady for a few weeks. The media creates a negative filter for her. While this is a problem for her in the general election, I think it is also a huge problem for Obama. He obviously has a lot of soft support that is more based on uncertainty about Clinton than positivity towards Obama given how big the swing is when he starts to get some negative media attention. And people don't hate McCain and the media will treat them equally at best, and favor McCain strongly at worst. Not good for Obama come general election time.

    Parent
    Not good for US come GE time. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Burned on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:48:37 AM EST
    agree (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by miguelito on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:33:13 AM EST
    they've been completely negative since at least NH and in the process have lost the GE regardless of what happens in the primary.

    Parent
    He may have started to late for PA (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by ineedalife on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:59:56 AM EST
    But looking forward he knows he has to depress turnout to keep Hillary from overtaking him in the popular vote. The next two weeks before IN/NC is going to be fugly.

    Oh it will be (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:13:38 AM EST
    nasty!! I saw at the debate how Obama behaves and reacts when Hillary simply says his PLANS are not good enough. Never attacks him personally.  Yet he gets indignant, mad and lashes out.  He reacted at the debate by saying that she was "attacking him" when in fact, she had attacked his tax policy.  He took it SO personally. It was off-putting and extremely rude. You could see his face twisted up in anger and he immediately lashed out at Hillary.  I get more and more from him that he's a petulant teenager.  And is taking every criticism as a personal affront.  

    Parent
    O has proven again and again (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by Kathy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:20:52 AM EST
    what a sore loser he is--starting back with Nevada.  We already have a spoiled brat in the White House.  I don't want another one.

    I think that his negative attacks are going to backfire because of the way he delivers them.  He almost looks like a snarky comedian-the way he holds the microphone, the way he waits for the crowd to laugh before he laughs.  If you watch him with the sound off (which is a pleasure, let me tell you) then you'd be hard pressed to say whether he's a political candidate or Steven Wright. (woops...Wright!)

    By contrast, I think Clinton looks absolutely radiant lately.  And she seems to have lost some weight, too.  She's behaving like the front runner, which she has every right to do!

    Parent

    To the point (none / 0) (#52)
    by rooge04 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:35:12 AM EST
    where Bush comes off almost humble in comparison.  He is a jerk, to be sure, but I've never seen him personally attack any Democrat (personally!) the way that Obama has attacked Hillary.

    Parent
    Nooo (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:15:49 PM EST
    Because that would be absolutely effing stupid. She attacks Obama to drive the white vote to herself.

    She knows the A-A vote is locked up. She knows it is going to be big.

    She needs a huge white turnout.

    Look, perhaps Obama supporters are intent on looking simple, but I can not for the life of me understand why they want to.  

    Obama is a weak candidate (1.00 / 1) (#18)
    by awang on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:37:06 AM EST
    The democratic party has clearly been hijacked by the extreme leftwing. For left-leaning independents, this is very frustrating. The extreme righwing nuts of the Republican party took control of the party and they gave us George W. Bush. The democratic party is in danger of repeating the same mistake---not electing the most capable person into the white house. Our country needs Clinton NOW. There is no time for the empty "hope" talks. In Wednesday debate, it was obvious that while Hillary has provided detailed and substantive proposals, Obama spent most of his time describing this country's problems that we already know. He provided little insight on the solutions to these problems. Obama, I am afraid, is quite hollow in terms of his plan to lead this country to a better future. We need to alarm the democratic party that many independent voters could turn to McCain if Obama is nominated. I think this scenario is quite real and it has not been talked about enough in the main stream media. Take a look. http://ivotemccainifobamaisnominated.blogspot.com/ (I vote for McCain if Obama is nominated)


    This drives me crazy (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by magisterludi on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:55:32 AM EST
    Where is this "left-wing Obama"?  All i hear from BHO is pablum policy. The only time he's animated is when he's attacking HRC.

    Parent
    I Think The Left Wing Is Getting Unfairly Branded (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by MO Blue on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:02:35 AM EST
    in all of this. People like Huffington and Kos who are driving a lot of the Hillary Hate on the blogs are former Republicans using Republican tactics to destroy the Clintons.

    Parent
    Do you remember during (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:31:27 AM EST
    the Cold War how people worried about "sleeper" spies? Well, I am beginning to think that perhaps Kos and Arianna are Republican sleepers sent to disrupt the Democratic party. The Republicans knew what they were doing when they sent in Bush, they knew what he was and they used it to their advantage. Now we have two of the allegedly most influential voices in the Dem party doing what they can to fracture the party completely. I know, tin foil hat territory, but still..I do wonder if the Republicans thought that far ahead, knowing the mood that the country would be in after Bush. I just wonder..

    Parent
    tin foil hat (none / 0) (#53)
    by RalphB on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:37:04 AM EST
    Where do I get one?  I really hate to think so, but you could be onto something.  If so, I doubt it has anything to do with Bush specifically, just that control of the WH tends to change after 8 years of either party.  Might be brilliant strategy to break that mold.

    Parent
    Obama is not progressive; Unity with the RW ... (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Ellie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:03:35 AM EST
    ... at the cost of disenfranchising millions of their constitutional protections so he can enjoy short term political and media gains isn't progress.

    It's more of the same tactics we've seen from opportunists who put their individual fortunes above restoration of law and constitutional government, and even basic human rights.

    It's disgusting that he's doing this in such a way that imperils what should have been a likely -- if not certain -- Dem win.

    Parent

    i couldn't agree with you more. (none / 0) (#87)
    by kangeroo on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 03:40:25 PM EST
    you took the words right outta my mouth.

    Parent
    Left wing? (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Munibond on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:34:31 AM EST
    I think it is mainly the same group that acquired the 2004 nomination for Kerry, plus the Chicago/IL party machinery plus the newly emergent libertarian wing.  There may be liberal dems that think Obama will revert back to his earlier liberalism once elected.  Frankly, that is what I will be hoping for, if he gets the nomination, but there is nothing in his past to indicate any willingness to fight the good fight.

    Parent
    Dems let RW spin select the last dud candidacy (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Ellie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:02:22 AM EST
    Now we're getting it again by allowing them to thin the herd and game the system so they get to compete with another weak candidate for the presidency.

    Kerry was weak in the election, whether for not standing up to his attacks or listening too much to perpetual loser-Dems.

    I hate that losers like Donna Brazile and other opportunists are assisting Repug interests to sabotage Dem interests generally and Sen. Clinton's campaign specifically.

    I was a Dean supporter who'd rather have seen him or Edwards run for the WH, not just for how each would have handled the election but in actual governance.

    Why they're propping up someone who's not only weak to run but worse to govern is beyond me. This is beyond throwing out the baby with the bathwater: I have to think hard at what principles Obama is affirmatively FOR -- besides hating HRC and egregious bigotry against the "wrong" type of voter -- and see nothing there but his own self-interest.

    And no, I don't believe he'll deliver once we put him in power. In my entire voting lifetime, I've heard that line too many times to buy it again.

    My vote needs to be earned not by another empty promise or pistol wink that equality will be mine, just not, er, um, right now 'kay?

    I can look after my own soul and medical choices, thanks. When do I get to see my slice of this Constitution thingy?

    Parent

    ellie, you rock. (none / 0) (#88)
    by kangeroo on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 03:43:21 PM EST
    i've been loving your comments.

    Parent
    awang (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by standingup on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:48:02 AM EST
    is spamming threads with this comment.  It is the only comment awang has ever made on Talk Left.  

    Parent
    Yep, (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Mary Mary on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:23:32 PM EST
    and it reads very much like someone from a party that would enjoy having Dems not vote for the Dem candidate in November.

    Parent
    I guess it's possible (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:34:09 AM EST
    So would it then be worthwhile for Hillary to go positive tomorrow?

    The psychology here is a bit above me.

    That is standard (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by ineedalife on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:03:29 AM EST
    Usually in the final weekend you go all shiny, happy to get people inspired. BO spending extra millions and a change of message to full out negative now means he is scared.

    Parent
    the final touch... (none / 0) (#36)
    by SAINTIXE56 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:19:39 AM EST
    Usually in the final weekend you go all shiny, happy to get people inspired. BO spending extra millions and a change of message to full out negative now means he is scared.

    there is 2 reasons why he gets into higher gear

    either he is scared...

    or he is going in for the killing

    we all know pollsters cab be dead wrong
    so imagine if he was going actually to win Penn.and by double digit.
    Imagine what it would mean if
    not only Clinton would not win by lets say a 5% but BHO win by 8-9%

    lets talk about rewriting history...


    Yes if that happens it would be something (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Marvin42 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:34:00 AM EST
    It would definitely end the primary season and would mean Obama has made great gains and is a good campaigner.

    Also I would have to carry umbrella with me to prevent the poop from the flying pigs from hitting my head.

    Parent

    Phone calls calling Hillary a liar (none / 0) (#48)
    by ineedalife on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:33:09 AM EST
    A couple commenters in the last few days have said they received calls in the Pittsburgh area calling Hillary a liar. Does anyone know if these calls were targeted to white catholics?

    I'd like to hear those calls (none / 0) (#80)
    by nycstray on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:20:05 PM EST
    on the evening news to show the O campaign's true character.

    Parent
    x (none / 0) (#83)
    by Mary Mary on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:24:53 PM EST
    I got one and I am one. Hmmmmmm.

    Parent
    What was the content of these calls? (none / 0) (#91)
    by jawbone on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 04:30:31 PM EST
    And who would think to tape one, right?

    Drat.

    But what do you recall of the wording?

    Parent

    x (none / 0) (#94)
    by Mary Mary on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 06:21:29 PM EST
    It was a woman who identified herself by name and said she was from Pittsburgh (I live in Berks county, which is five hours from there). She didn't sound like a Pittsburgher, though, she sounded like she was from coal country. In an angry tone, she said she used to support Hillary Clinton, but [I forget what she said here]. What follows in quotes, though, is a direct transcription:

    ""you'll probably get a lot of negative calls from Senator Clinton's campaign, but don't believe 'em; they will say anything."

    That's what closed the call. WhatEVer. :-) It wasn't  as bad as it could have been; you should hear what some regular voters say when I call as a volunteer from the Hillary campaign. Yeesh.

    Parent

    depress the votes... (none / 0) (#64)
    by white n az on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:39:10 AM EST
    of all the people that he identified in San Francisco as being 'bitter' and 'cling' to their guns and their religion?

    You must mean that he has given up bowling...

    In re: Campaign consultants (none / 0) (#67)
    by Doc Rock on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:52:02 AM EST
    Exile them to Siberia!

    Your telepathy aside, if Obama has won ... (none / 0) (#79)
    by Ellie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:51:43 PM EST
    ... his campaign should declare victory, show the math, stop trolling and thugging and do a press conference Monday morning announcing the plan to take on McCain.

    Tactics like astro-trolling, smearing, egregious bigotry and fear-mongering aren't the politics of change but the Bush / Rove politics we've seen the last 8 yrs. Clinton bashing has gone on for longer.

    The misogyny, gay-bashing and bigotry? Well, ain't THAT a surprise bonus in Obama's "New" politics of Change.

    My vote is my own. It has to be earned, as does my trust and respect. After watching both campaigns from candidates who weren't my initial choice, Sen. Clinton has done that.

    Obama's campaign has been so repulsive, I wouldn't vote for him even with a signed promise from him that he'd (:: pistol wink ::) suddenly stop pandering to the right and affirmatively stand for something once given a job he doesn't come close to measure up to.

    I'd rather see Sen. Clinton take on McCain.

    Catch up on the discussion first (none / 0) (#86)
    by Ellie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 02:22:22 PM EST
    No, I won't take you by the hand through items we just finished discussing here because you're apparently too lazy to do your own homework.

    You can start with today's threads, which I'm remarking on, or go to the tags on Wright, Newsom (and respectively, Obama's support and dodge).

    The misogyny slurs in his "kitchen sink / thrown china" were abundantly discussed yesterday.

    Once you've caught up, come back to the topic and we can have an actual discussion.

    Parent

    what's a "pistol wink"? (none / 0) (#89)
    by kangeroo on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 03:49:16 PM EST
    All of this doesn't matter! (none / 0) (#101)
    by Kbentleyis on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:50:33 PM EST
    Our girl is pulling ahead inch by inch in PA. So depress?; supress?; who gives a rat's pajama's.  Hillary's on the move!  GO HILLARY!