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More On The "Umbrella Of Deterrence"

John Aravosis links to a Dr. Jeffrey Lewis of the New America Foundation on the Clinton "umbrella of deterrence" proposal. Aravosis quotes Dr. Lewis saying things that strike me as not only wrong, but nuts. Dr. Lewis provides three rules: [More...]

A couple of rules about nuclear weapons.

Rule number one is never, ever, ever threaten to use nuclear weapons against another country unless you plan to do so in the near future. Brandishing our nuclear arsenal doesn't achieve anything beyond what comes from having nuclear weapons in first place-- the Iranians are well aware of our nuclear capabilities. Talking about it always rings hollow, while encouraging the other side to call your bluff by saying or doing provocative things in response.

Never threaten to use nuclear weapons unless you plan to in the near future? Excuse me Dr. Lewis, but this is nuts. The idea of PLANNING TO USE nuclear weapons in the near future is something that should be avoided at almost all costs. The idea of deterrence theory is to let people know what will happen if they do something. So that you do not have to plan to use nuclear weapons in the near future. Being coy about it leaves uncertainty, not deterrence. I know Dr. Lewis is supposed to be the expert but this first rule strikes me as just plain nuts. Dr. Lewis continues:

Rule number two is don't act freaked out by other countries current or possible nuclear weapons. The model here is LBJ, who gave a very reassuring speech saying that China's first nuclear test in 1964 wouldn't change the balance of power in Asia. The goal is to reassure allies, not talk like some deranged lunatic, which Senator Clinton is normally not.

Hmmm. In terms of Iran's possibly gaining nuclear weapons, it seems to me that everyone is doing a lot of freaking out. Dr. Lewis must not have been following the Iran story for the past couple of years. Offering an umbrella of deterrence strikes me as a measured and thoughtful non-freakout. Dr. Lewis' reaction is the one that is rather overwrought. He looks the deranged lunatic here, not Clinton. Dr. Lewis continues:

Rule number three is to remember that the credibility of the nuclear umbrella comes from the credibility of our security commitment to other countries. So you don't talk about extending nuclear deterrence; you talk about how we regard the security of Israel (or Japan or Europe or whomever) as a vital national interest. The nuclear part is pretty obvious and best remains unsaid.

Hmm, this strikes me as the emptiest of arguments. If "the nuclear part is pretty obvious" then why does it remaini best unsaid? You'll excuse me, but if this is the basis for Dr. Lewis calling Clinton a deranged lunatic, let's make sure he has stays far away from the levers of power. His response is so unmeasured, so impolitic and, imo, so ridiculous, that one wonder how he came to be considered an expert in the field. (Se, I get to be unmeasured because I am just a blogger, not an expert. I can call him a deranged lunatic. He does not get to call Hillary Clinton a deranged lunatic and be considered a serious person.)

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    Au contraire (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:01:14 AM EST
    it is fair game to call Hillary a deranged lunatic and still be considered "serious."

    Check out the "serious" Obama bloggers. They have called her far worse.

    Let's face it, what could she know anyway? She's only a girl. She should stay in the kitchen and bake cookies, preferably barefoot and pregnant.

    This reminds me of Samantha (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:03:03 AM EST
    Power's infamous article from last August about
    "conventional wisdom" in foreign policy.
    Hillary Clinton, naturally, is an example of that CW. The article appeared after Obama's first threat to invade Pakistan. He got so much heat for his undiplomatic threat that Powers wrote a WORM article on Obama's wonderful foreign policy.
    One of Powers' points is that the conventional wisdom is to plan to drop nuclear weapons on terrorist training camps. In my opinion, she was close to a flat-out assertion that Clinton would use nukes if elected. Lewis's analysis is of a similar high quality.

    The people who are most likely to use nukes (none / 0) (#5)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:06:40 AM EST
    are Dick "Bunker Buster" Cheney and the brain-damaged chimp. I'm still unconvinced that they won't attack Iran in October to boost McCain's chances.

    Parent
    I thought the premise of her article was (none / 0) (#6)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:07:45 AM EST
    flat-out wrong. What I saw in the run-up to the Iraq war was a sharp divide in the FP community, with a  large number of people recommending against it.

    Parent
    Oh, absolutely. (none / 0) (#8)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:10:35 AM EST
    The real experts were horrified. And none of Iraq's neighbors thought Saddam had WMD's. H*ll, even Condi and Colin said so in early 2001. On TV! (Can't find my link b/c it expired, but it's true.)

    Parent
    You can read the memo (none / 0) (#16)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:17:13 AM EST
    here
    and judge for yourself.

    Parent
    OMG! (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:29:33 AM EST
    What a Koolaid drinker! Obama's judgment is supreme. Everyone else is an idiot!

    She doesn't seem to grasp that the broken foreign policy only happens when Republicans are in charge of the White House. Many in the FP community did NOT want to invade Iraq, but she claims they did. She blames the unwillingness to talk to our enemies on both parties. She blames Musharraf for not catching OBL, instead of Bush's stupidity (or complicity) in letting him get into a geographically ambivalent area.

    She doesn't have a clue.

    Parent

    Personally I thought her comment (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:32:42 AM EST
    about plans to drop nuclear weapons was the single most reckless charge of the entire campaign.


    Parent
    I just think she is wrong in so many ways (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:35:04 AM EST
    that I cannot pick just one out. If that's your fave, more "power" to ya. :-)

    MY fave came after this memo, when she said that Obama's plan to withdraw troops in 16 months from Iraq was a "best-case scenario." Talk about reckless!

    Parent

    Well, I have no illusion about the (none / 0) (#40)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:37:21 AM EST
    special wisdom of Ph.D's, when speaking of matters outside their own expertise. What I find interesting is that even in FP, an "expert" can make a fool of herself when speaking outside her area.
    Of course, Rice is a good example of this: as a specialist in Soviet Studies, she was a horrible choice for NSA.

    Parent
    Obama isn't planning on (none / 0) (#49)
    by Virginian on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:44:19 AM EST
    withdrawing troops in 16 months...read his policy position, it is a strategic redeployment -- he will remove some, but leave a contigency force in place, in other words...not withdrawing

    And of course, we shouldn't have gone in...but anyone who thinks we can just pick up and leave Iraq is delusional or short sighted...we're there for a long long time thanks to Bush...

    Parent

    At the time she said it, (none / 0) (#53)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:47:43 AM EST
    He had pledged to withdraw all troops in 16 months.

    But it hardly matters. It's only a "best-case scenario."

    Parent

    Oh...so this is pre-pre-specifics Obama... (none / 0) (#60)
    by Virginian on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:52:30 AM EST
    The article was not about Obama at all (none / 0) (#46)
    by Virginian on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:41:57 AM EST
    but a self-defense of Powers...it was autobiographical, because Obama was/is mouthing Powers' foreign policy theories...

    Parent
    No, it was about Obama; (none / 0) (#48)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:43:27 AM EST
    the memo intended to buttress his comments on invading Pakistan.

    Parent
    Right....his comments (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Virginian on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:45:50 AM EST
    but who is/was advising Obama? Who had his ear? Who was giving him FP advice? Who was his FP advisor?

    It was Samantha Powers...she was his "teacher" on this stuff...she was defending what she had "taught" him...thus she was defending herself...

    Parent

    What is your point? (none / 0) (#54)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:48:40 AM EST
    Is Obama not responsible for the words that come out of his mouth?

    Parent
    No...that Power's editorial (none / 0) (#57)
    by Virginian on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:49:55 AM EST
    defending Obama...was really an editorial defending herself...Obama parroting her ideas and theories...

    Parent
    This is getting too OT. (none / 0) (#63)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:53:40 AM EST
    Will comment no further.

    Parent
    Obama has said this already (none / 0) (#50)
    by Kathy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:44:50 AM EST
    Clinton a deranged lunatic

    Remember when he was talking about keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally deranged?

    (thanks, folks, I'm here all week...)

    Parent

    non-proliferation (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by p lukasiak on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:06:07 AM EST
    This guy is nuts.

    The whole reason that every country in the world doesn't have a nuke arsenal is that the US and Russia put the rest of the world under a "nuclear umbrella" -- if someone nuked one of their allies, the attacker would get nuked.

    That is what NATO, SEATO, the Warsaw Pact, and a whole lot of other 'collective security' arrangements were based on....

    Let me guess -- the guy is an Obama supporter?

    Gee Paul (none / 0) (#12)
    by myiq2xu on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:12:49 AM EST
    what was your first clue?

    What is "deranged" or "bellicose" about making clear we will retaliate with nukes if nukes are used against us or our allies?

    She did not suggest a preemptive strike.

    Brains!  Must . . . eat . . . brains!

    Parent

    "how he came to be considered an expert" (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:06:18 AM EST
    simple
    it was the deranged lunatic part.
    thats all Mr A needs to quote him.

    leave it to Aravosis (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by dws3665 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:10:08 AM EST
    To find someone, no matter how loony, to support his foregone conclusions. Don't forget, he nearly had a conniption about how the HRC campaign darkened the Obama photos. He has lost all credibility, which really makes me sad. I used to enjoy his site quite a bit.

    Has Rossmiller stopped blogging there? I wonder what he might have to say about this, though I don't think non-proliferation is his area of security expertise.

    Rossmiller (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:30:03 AM EST
    does seem to be the only one there who has not completely gone around the bend.
    yet.


    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:16:00 AM EST
    What's funny is that it has mostly been Obama who has criticized the traditional "you can't say that!" rules of foreign policy and sought to introduce a new paradigm.  Now it's Hillary who is criticized for daring to have a new idea.  Apparently it's now unthinkable to alter our traditional foreign policy in any way, because it's just worked so perfectly.

    LBJ did not downplay the threat from China because he was following the "rules" of what you're supposed to say; in fact, LBJ and his immediate predecessors wrote the rules.  He downplayed the threat because he didn't want to give his domestic political opponents any more fodder for their anti-Communist demagoguery.  Now, with that in mind, there might actually be a lesson here for Hillary.

    New Obama Rule (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:22:50 AM EST
    You can only say or do controversial things if you are Obama or support Obama.

    Parent
    Let me start by saying (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Florida Resident on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:19:47 AM EST
    Nuclear Weapons are EVIL.  Having said that we must understand that they are part of many of the World's arsenals.  They exist and they are real unless we can find a way of getting rid of all of them(HAH) we are stuck with them.  The idea of proliferation is also real and the problem is not helped by us being so damn selective about who we enforce it with. ie we develop nuclear agreements with India who violated the non-proliferation agreement.  

    But let's be realistic if you have nuclear weapons and you want to have them as a deterrent then you have to tell people when and how you will use them or,,   Where is the deterrent then???

    Rule Number 2 ... (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:53:08 AM EST
    is just about what you do after a country gets nuclear weapons.  Obviously, you don't overly freak out.

    But, before they get them, you can use a carrot/stick approach to convincing that it isn't a great idea.

    Of course, a sovereign nation can do what it wants to do.  But suggesting that there will be benefits to them to avoid making nuclear weapons, and consequences if they make them, just seems like diplomacy.

    And the invention of a nuclear umbrella is both a carrot to other countries in the region, and a stick to Iran.

    Sure, it may not work.  But the best predictor of future results is past results.  And deterrence did work in the past.

    Here is the question (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by Kathy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:53:23 AM EST
    Do real Americans--I mean the ones who have jobs and can't spend all their time online and such--really, honestly think that Hillary Clinton is going to nuke Iran?

    It's incredible.  This whole argument is absolutely ridiculous.  That they were able to take on statement and conflate it into all out nuclear war is on par with Hollywood.

    Actually, Matthew Broderick already starred in the movie (two points to whoever gets it!)

    Kennedy was ready to do it. (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Salo on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:56:10 AM EST
    Obama reminds every one of Kennedy--ergo--Obama would do it.

    snark.

    Parent

    War Games (none / 0) (#71)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:01:45 PM EST
    of course.

    I know my eighties movies.

    Parent

    Let's play... (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:03:13 PM EST
    Thermonuclear War!

    What a great movie.

    We STILL don't get it as a species. Sometimes I wonder how much longer we'll make it without totally destroying ourselves. :-(

    Parent

    For all the insane things ... (none / 0) (#81)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:10:18 PM EST
    the humane race has done.  We've done some great things as well.

    Our advances in medicine, the Sistine Chapel ceiling, Shakespeare, and Oreos with double-stuff!

    Sure, we may destroy ourselves.  But I think we just might survive, and have many more thousands of years to enjoy that double-stuff inside an Oreo cookie.

    Parent

    MMmmmmm.... (none / 0) (#89)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:12:29 PM EST
    reminds me that I'm hungry. Lunch beckons!

    Parent
    Wargames (none / 0) (#83)
    by vicndabx on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:10:37 PM EST
    Shall we play a game?

    Parent
    Damn. Sorry, trying to be first and all that.... (none / 0) (#88)
    by vicndabx on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:11:56 PM EST
    War Games! (none / 0) (#110)
    by magisterludi on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:39:13 PM EST
    Following The Links (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:58:48 AM EST
    Winds up contradicting Avarosis' main points.

    "Massive retaliation," as a reader pointed out, is a term of art in nuclear strategy.and a cornerstone of nuclear deterrence.

    Clinton seemed aware of the term's pedigree when Olbermann asked her about Iran.

    "We used [deterrence] very well during the Cold War when we had a bipolar world and what I think the president should do and what our policy should be is to make it very clear to the Iranians that they would be risking massive retaliation were they to launch a nuclear attack on Israel," she said.

    politico

    Following the link you will see Kissinger, Dulles both threatening 'massive retaliation at a time and place of our own choosing' if any of our allies are nuked. That seems to contradict Avarosis' expert and ensuing Hillary bash fest.

    My take is that Hillary answer to Olberman, is less about pumping anyone up and more about reassuring voters that contrary to all the BushCo warmongering, Iran is not a threat, even if they do acquire nukes. Her comment is in keeping with her talk of gaining new allies in the region who would obviously benefit from US protection.

    The question is only on the table because of BushCo Iran warmongering. The BushCo propaganda campaign would have most Americans believing that Iran is comparable to the USSR in military might, while in actuality it is closer to Sweeden. It is absurd to imagine that Iran would attack Israel with a Nuke.

    This has always been Hillary's (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Radix on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:03:29 PM EST
    "weakness".  She's always been ready to give specifics about her proposals, which gives people the opportunity to criticize those proposals. Obama is much better at political double speak, can't pin him down on anything, or nearly so.

    For myself, I believe Hillary's willing to put her ideas out there for actual discussion, as opposed to, discussions about what Obama really meant, is what makes her a better leader and Obama a better politician.

    Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated

    Don Henley-The Garden of Allah


    I think the overall concept is brilliant (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Trickster on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:24:02 PM EST
    At least potentially, this is the best and most original foreign policy idea of either candidate during the entire campaign, and in fact I'd call it at least potentially the best American foreign policy initiative probably since Camp David, and maybe even more important than that historic set of accords.  

    An umbrella security organization of the Middle East will temper the impetus for the strongmen over there to play their biggest-dick games for regional power as they have done from time immemorial.  It would commit us to playing a role as a moderating force in the region.  It would ensure that our moderating role is actually on the side of moderation, because our new-found status in the umbrella organization would mean that Israel is no longer our overwhelmingly most important regional ally.  It would give local nations a tribunal for consultation when the inevitable border disputes, etc., spring up.  And it would create a sounding place for us to bring our concerns about regional terrorism.

    I think--so long as it is implemented in a way that achieves it's promise--that it's absolutely brilliant.  The kind of imaginative melding of diplomacy, military power, and American influence that can actually make things better in the world, as opposed to just stumbling along and trying to handle crises as they pop up, which is our normal MO.


    Agreed (none / 0) (#114)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:42:46 PM EST
    it's an excellent policy, (none / 0) (#137)
    by cpinva on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:42:42 PM EST
    but as sen. clinton herself pointed out, it's hardly new or original; it's merely an updated version of "MADD", Mutually Assured Destruction. this was the policy in place during much of the cold war with the USSR. oddly enough, it was quite successful, you'll note we're all still here.

    that anyone with a brain somehow thinks this policy represents anything other than a deterrant, merely displays their ignorance on the public stage.

    MADD was he basic concept behind the movie "dr. strangelove, or how i learned to stop worrying and love the bomb". the russian "doomsday device" was the ultimate WMD.

    Parent

    What's new about it (none / 0) (#141)
    by Trickster on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:52:46 PM EST
    is the use of the deterrence umbrella to create a framework for political interaction between Mid-East states and the U.S. (and NATO I would hope and predict) on security matters.  Such a framework is badly needed.

    BTW, I stuck a bit from Dr. Strangelove into one of my comments above, so we're certainly on the same page there.

    Parent

    Fear Tactics (4.66 / 3) (#47)
    by miguelito on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:41:59 AM EST
    I love how they constantly accuse the Clinton campaign of using negativity and fear tactics while having surrogates push the "Hillary the monster is going to nuke us all!!"  narrative.  Pathetic.

    Sure...but the difference is they (none / 0) (#64)
    by Virginian on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:54:15 AM EST
    are so wrapped up in Obama and winning, they actually believe the latter.

    I don't believe that Powers doesn't believe HRC is a monster...check out some Obamalogs and see their opinion of her...

    Parent

    In terms of Rule One... (4.50 / 2) (#45)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:40:44 AM EST
    ... I'd agree that it's a bad idea to talk about nuking other countries for reasons other than retaliation for use of nukes. But deterring a nuclear attack is different. "Leaving it unsaid"  leaves wiggle room for other countries leaders (particularly ones in places like Iran that may not know America all that well) to make incorrect assumptions about America's resolve. Best to be unambiguous.

    Threating to nuke people (3.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Jgarza on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:33:00 AM EST
    makes people want nukes of their own more.  It was a really irresponsible statement.

    No, threatening conventional invasions (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:35:20 AM EST
    us what makes countries seek nuclear weapons.

    Parent
    DING DING DING DING (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:38:20 AM EST
    Note that Ahmadenijad was elected AFTER Bush invaded Iraq. That's when they re-started their nuclear activities.

    Frankly, I don't blame them. They're on the "axis of evil," after all.

    Parent

    I wonder if you get a lapel pin (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Virginian on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:56:30 AM EST
    when you join the Axis of Evil?

    Right now in Iran they are probably really ticked off that Ahmadenijad isn't wearing his axis-of-evil lapel pin.

    /snark :)

    Parent

    LOL! (none / 0) (#69)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:58:23 AM EST
    That was some good snark. :-)

    Parent
    That's not (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:39:04 AM EST
    What she said.

    And it's not a case of saying what she really meant.  Cause she said what she really meant.  

    Parent

    She said... (none / 0) (#56)
    by mattt on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:49:21 AM EST
    "we should be able to totally obliterate" Iran.  Heck, if I were Iranian hearing that I'd want my own nuclear deterrent, too!

    There's an argument for an umbrella of deterrence, but it's a big can of worms and Hillary strikes me as being far too glib.  This kind of "obliterate" rhetoric coupled with an explicit nuclear alliance with Israel would certainly be used by extremists to recruit terrorists and rationalize "asymmetrical warfare" against the US.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:54:28 AM EST
    If they ever struck Israel with Nukes, we should be able to do that.

    All you people who have been screaming about context and not quoting people out of context when it comes to Obama are hypocrites.

    At least here it's in the statement itself, and I don't need to tell you what Clinton really meant.

    She said what she meant.  You just choose to ignore it.

    Parent

    The "obliterate" comment (none / 0) (#76)
    by mattt on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:06:31 PM EST
    was a hypothetical response to an attack on Israel, but the level of rhetoric was still reckless and would play to Ahmadinejad's hand as he tries to paint himself (and Iran) as the champion of the Muslim world vs an oppressive US.  And it's unnecessary - Israel has its own second-strike deterrence capability.  Most sane people agree Iran would want nukes to deter US aggression or interference in its regional ambitions; its the Bushie loonies who are trying to demagogue the threat to Israel and Hillary is playing to their hand, too.

    And it's not just Israel, she said she would extend US deterrence to attacks on other states as well.  This might be a good idea if conditions (eg, human rights progress in protected nations) were attached to this deterrent.  But we hear none of this, only a glib pronouncement that the US will use the full weight of its power to constrain Iran regionally.

    Parent

    How do you know (none / 0) (#80)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:10:13 PM EST
    no conditions will be attached to extending deterrence to other nations? I'm astonished that's your assumption. What do you think "carrot and stick" means?

    Parent
    I don't see where (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by mattt on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:18:59 PM EST
    Clinton has said anything about conditions, nor reason to assume any.  She wants to deter Iran from building nukes, or failing that from using them.  At all, against anyone.  No mention of conditions for protection, or need for any if the startegy is Iran-focused.

    Now, I think the idea of forming some kind of league of middle eastern nations willing to move toward freedom and democracy while protected by the US nuclear aegis might be a good idea.  Huge questions and complexities, but maybe a good idea.  But that's not what I hear Clinton saying.

    Meanwhile the "obliterate" rhetoric in defense of Israel is just pointless.  They don't need our deterrence, and as the Harvard article posted earlier shows, probably wouldn't want to be constrained by conditions that would come with it.  Clinton;s nuclear rhetoric in defense of Isrtael is a no-win pander for right wing votes that hurts the US image on the Arab street.

    Parent

    So you don't believe she will (none / 0) (#105)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:33:28 PM EST
    have conditions because you are assuming that she won't.

    Given the fact that she has slammed Obama repeatedly for stating he'd meet with foreign leaders without conditions, I assume she will.

    I guess we will have to wait and see if she gets a chance to implement this policy. But keep in mind that BTD, and other Obama supporters, say that Obama is in total agreement with HRC on this.

    Parent

    She more fully described it in the debate (none / 0) (#144)
    by Trickster on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:22:35 PM EST
    Here's the transcript of that portion, and I have highlighted parts where she spoke about or implied conditions or a requirement of cooperation:

    And I think that this is an opportunity, with skillful diplomacy, for the United States, to go to the region and enlist the region in a security agreement vis-a-vis Iran.

    It would give us three tools we now don't have. Number one, we've got to begin diplomatic engagement with Iran. And we want the region and the world to understand how serious we are about it. I would begin those discussions at a low level. I certainly would not meet with Ahmadinejad because even again today he made light of 9/11, and said that he's not even sure it happened and that people actually died.

    He's not someone who would have an opportunity to meet with me in the White House. But I would have a diplomatic process that would engage him.

    And secondly, we've got to deter other countries from feeling they have to acquire nuclear weapons. You can't go to the Saudis or the Kuwaitis or UAE and others who have a legitimate concern about Iran and say, well, don't acquire these weapons to defend yourself unless you're also willing to say we will provide a deterrent backup.

    We will let the Iranians know, that, yes, an attack on Israel would trigger massive retaliation. But so would an attack on those countries that are willing to go under the security umbrella and forswear their own nuclear ambitions. And finally, we cannot permit Iran to become a nuclear weapons power. And this administration has failed in our efforts to convince the rest of the world that that is a danger, not only to us, and not just to Israel but to the region and beyond.

    Therefore, we have not to have this process that reaches out beyond even who we would put under the security umbrella, to get the rest of the world on our side to try to impose the kind of sanctions and diplomatic efforts that might prevent this from occurring.

    I think this is outstanding stuff.  It makes me think her Administration would start out with the kind of diplomatic maturity and ingenuity that Bill Clinton's Administration had achieved by its second term.


    Parent

    Thanks for the quote (none / 0) (#151)
    by mattt on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:27:38 PM EST
    I missed that debate.  This statement makes a lot more sense.  I think a country like Saudi Arabia should have to go a lot further in terms of human rights than just forswearing nuclear ambitions in order to get a guarantee of US protection, but at least she intends some kind of linkage.


    Parent
    People always worry about the soft power (none / 0) (#82)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:10:21 PM EST
    Consequences of deterrence policy.  They never seem to manifest in real life.

    Parent
    What part of (none / 0) (#59)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:51:56 AM EST
    that response was to a hypothetical, assuming Iran had already attacked Israel with nuclear weapons, do you not understand?

    If we deter them by using this type of umbrella agreement, they may not EVER get nuclear weapons. Thus, no attack.

    Parent

    If Israel were nuked by Iran? (none / 0) (#68)
    by Salo on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:57:21 AM EST
    They would be glassed.

    No doubt about it.

    The US would even need to lift a finger for that to happen though.

    Parent

    I guess this is where (none / 0) (#72)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:01:51 PM EST
    the rub is.

    Would Israel be able to respond by itself if Iran did attack it with nukes?

    Opinions differ.

    Personally, I don't think it will happen because they will be deterred from doing so by a more sensible, Democratic foreign policy starting in 2009.

    Parent

    Whose opinions "differ"? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Jay Elias on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:09:54 PM EST
    Israel most definitely does have submarines which are capable of delivering nuclear weapons.  Further, Iran could only attempt a counterforce strike by nuking Jerusalem, which is for many reasons highly unlikely.

    Parent
    Have you been reading these comments? (none / 0) (#84)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:10:56 PM EST
    Yes... (none / 0) (#87)
    by Jay Elias on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:11:51 PM EST
    ...are you alluding to something in particular?

    Parent
    JohnS's comments (none / 0) (#102)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:26:21 PM EST
    for one.

    I think the hypothetical is ridiculous. Iran will not have nukes for 5-10 years, and if we develop a sensible policy towards them, they never will.

    Meanwhile, if you're going to be hypothetical about Iran's nuclear capabilities, why not assume they will know about Israel's second strike subs and will take them out at the same time as they nuke Israel's nukes?

    Then what will the US do?

    See how easy that is, when your premise is a complete fabrication?

    Parent

    Well, I'm not really interested... (none / 0) (#126)
    by Jay Elias on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:07:28 PM EST
    ...in discussing this infinitely, but it was the opinion of everyone involved that the United States was incapable of creating a full counterforce attack against the Soviet Union - little is more absurd than the premise that Iran would be able to develop such against Israel.

    The specific vulnerability of Israel is that its size presents an incapability of survival as a nation after a significant nuclear strike, not that it would lose reciprocity.

    Parent

    You and I might both consider (none / 0) (#129)
    by JohnS on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:19:29 PM EST
    this hypothetical ridiculous, but the Israelis don't. They repeatedly refer to a nuclear Iran as an "existential threat."

    Post-Bush, I'm not sure what kind of "sensible policies" we could provide the Iranians to keep them from working on becoming a nuclear power, but I certainly hope our next pres is working on them as I write...

    Parent

    A nuclear-armed Iran... (none / 0) (#146)
    by Jay Elias on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:32:30 PM EST
    ...is an existential threat to Israel.  However, while it can imperil Israel's existence, it cannot muster a sufficient counterforce strike to prevent an Israeli response.

    Nuclear strikes on Tel Aviv and Haifa would destroy most of Israel's population and effectively separate the north and the south of the nation, effectively making Israel unsustainable.  However, Israel would certainly still retain the capacity to retaliate with some of its nuclear arsenal.  This is all elementary in any case, as any attempt to build a workable counterforce ability is certain cause for attack according to deterrence theory.  In other words, should Iran try to develop such a capability, it immediately becomes the only sensible course to strike first.

    Parent

    I don't think she sounded like a (none / 0) (#9)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:10:45 AM EST
    derranged lunatic, but I do think that what I said in my post yesterday - which you disagreed with BTD - about framing the issue better by putting Iran's nuclear threat in context - by pointing out that they are five to ten years away from producing a weapon; and pointing out that the Iranian people like America - would have better insulated her from all three of these criticisms.

    In the BBE (Before Bush Era), a politician's rationality would have been assumed and most people would have accepted the idea without too much protestation.  But in the ABE (After Bush Era), I think it is safe to say that any politician who is talking about using nuclear power even diplomatically, is going to provoke a much more circumspect response from Americans - and particularly amongst Democrats.

    On the contrary, what Clinton offers is a (none / 0) (#10)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:12:21 AM EST
    refreshing honesty which does NOT promise pre-emptive war.
    No "all options are on the table" to keep Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.

    Parent
    I don't disagree with your POV - (none / 0) (#122)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:55:56 PM EST
    I am only making the point that given the current political environment and the extent to which Bush has undermined public confidence in political leaders where it come to issues related to war and conflict, there will be people who will feel threatened by her statements.

    In a sense, I am relieved to see her challenged after we saw none for so many years with Bush.  That is as it happens one big plus in her column for me.  If Obama had talked about this strategy, his true believers would be doing back flips to insulate him and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a number of them go so far as to try to rationalize a nuclear attack instead of simply making it clear that deterrence was the objective and that deterrence is designed to prevent any and all attacks.

    Parent

    I agree with your larger point. (none / 0) (#13)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:12:52 AM EST
    So many horrible FP decisions have been made in this time, that any politician who even mentions nukes is going to face misunderstanding.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#21)
    by JoeA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:21:13 AM EST
    I don't really have too much of a problem with the policy as such,  though it seems to me that the rhetoric from Hillary was overly belligerent.  

    It does seem that some wires got crossed behind the scenes in her campaign for aides to be coming out and saying "oh no she didn't mean we would nuke Iran" at virtually the same time as she was saying that yes she did mean nuking Iran.  

    Parent

    Rule number 1 is silly. (none / 0) (#11)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:12:25 AM EST
    There is a big difference in saying that these are reasons to use nuclear weapons ( think of the Cold War, for instance, when any use of chemical weapons by the Warsaw Pact would possibly, probably, or most assuredly, trigger a nuclear response-- the WMD proposition). It seems that many people think of nuclear weapons as being thermonuclear, and strategic, instead of smaller. The US has had an arsenal of tactical nuclear weapons for years. Jeez, just read Tom CLancy to find out about some of the weapons with variable yields! Stating policy is not a threat, unless the policy is bellicose. Agree wholeheartedly with your second and third points, BTD. I don't want to see nuclear weapons used in my lifetime. But I don't think unilateral disarmament, or playing coy, are appropriate.

    OT:Diaries (none / 0) (#14)
    by gaf on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:13:56 AM EST
    How does one post diaries on this forum?
    Is there a time limit before a new member can post a diary?

    Or is no one allowed to post a diary - the first diary on the Rec list is posted on March 02.
    The last one is Sep 20, 2007.


    I think the rules were changed so that you can't (none / 0) (#22)
    by JoeA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:22:41 AM EST
    post diaries.  Trusted Users also used to be able to troll rate comments and "hide" them,  I assume that functionality is also disabled.

    Parent
    Last week (none / 0) (#78)
    by Molly Pitcher on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:07:07 PM EST
    a suggestion was posted for people to make contact about doing diaries.

    Parent
    You have to ask management (none / 0) (#25)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:23:22 AM EST
    to enable to feature for your account.

    Parent
    Look there are (none / 0) (#17)
    by facta non verba on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:17:37 AM EST
    two types of deterrence: conventional (ie bases) and nuclear (submarines and the fleet). The first takes loads of manpower the second less so. The first can bogged in a guerrilla war or occupation, the second lives at sea and calls on ports. The first is expensive, the second is less so. Both require making clear what is acceptable behaivour and what is not. Clinton is doing that. It's brilliant and deterrence works.

    The way she has done it does (none / 0) (#33)
    by JoeA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:32:07 AM EST
    somewhat contradict the conventions regarding ambiguity.  In general I agree that the US should extend some kind of anti nuclear protective umbrella over the region,  I don't think it's helpful to be explicitly talking about nuking Iran though.

    Parent
    Hmmm is right... (none / 0) (#18)
    by JohnS on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:18:17 AM EST
    Because I happen to think Clinton's solution is the only rational way to stabilize the region once Iran becomes a nuclear power.

    But Lewis may have a point: "it's not what you say, it's how you say it." I simply did not understand how people were so able to mangle up/not get what Clinton said to KO, even such foreign policy "luminaries' as Josh M, (once supposedly a liberal hawk in the realist school, I believe). Was spelling it out just too much for people to handle, or in the case of Marshall, was it simply a jerking knee syndrome ( as it was coming from the mouth of HRC).

    Perhaps using diplo-speak would have been a better idea, both domestically and internationally. On the other hand, for a pro like Clinton to step in a big pile of poo on such a sensitive (and major) subject also sounds off to me.

    Frankly, I can't believe that JMM is (none / 0) (#20)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:20:58 AM EST
    discussing the issue honestly.
    He claims that Israel can handle themselves; therefore, Clinton's threat to retaliate on Israel's behalf is an empty gesture.
    He ignores the really stunning aspect of her plan, which is to include Arab nations in the security pact; in addition, he must know that Israel does NOT feel certain it would be able to retaliate---Iran may be able to "wipe Israel off the map" with a first strike.

    Parent
    Flaming For War (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:38:16 AM EST
    Iran may be able to "wipe Israel off the map" with a first strike.

    You are repeating a right wing talking point, that was constructed in order to pump up Americans to want war in Iran.

    Ahmadinejad said nothing of the sort. He basically said the same thing that we have been saying about BushCo, that we need to get rid of them. Them meaning not wiping America off the map but getting these f'kers out of office.

    Parent

    Re: flaming for war (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by JohnS on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:11:02 PM EST
    You are repeating a right wing talking point, that was constructed in order to pump up Americans to want war in Iran.

    Well that's one way to try to shut down discussion.

    Personally, I believe that Iran wants nukes for purely defensive reasons. And that their leadership is quite sane and would be happy to be in our good graces if we would allow that to happen. But for at least the next year that will not be possible.

    In the meantime, for now and for the foreseeable future, Iran will not be a nuclear power. But they are probably working on becoming one because George Bush has demonstrated to them in Iraq why they need to become one. And that has Israel and the Arab states in a panic.

    The fact of the matter is, the Israeli military believes that eventually, when Iran becomes nuclearized, their small size would leave them vulnerable to total demolition to an Iranian first strike, nuke armed or not. That's just a fact. I don't know if it's true or not. I certainly don't believe that's iran's intent. But the Israelis are consumed by paranoia (rightly or wrongly), and  I'm (more or less) safely ensconsed here in NYC and not downtown Haifa so that's an easy call.

    Not understanding Israel's paranoia renders Clinton's proposal incomprehensible. And what she's proposing makes perfect sense as a way of lessening tensions/paranoia in Israel and the Arab states regarding iran.

    Because the McCain/neocon alternative is to blow Iran to smithereens now to try to kill their nuke program dead.

    Parent

    BS (none / 0) (#101)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:25:49 PM EST
    Well that's one way to try to shut down discussion.
    Your comment is silly. How is correcting BushCo propaganda in any way an attempt to shut down a discussion?  

    Most of the rest of your comment I agree with except I do not believe this:

    The fact of the matter is, the Israeli military believes that eventually, when Iran becomes nuclearized, their small size would leave them vulnerable to total demolition to an Iranian first strike, nuke armed or not. That's just a fact. I don't know if it's true or not.

    I do not agree that the Israeli military is worried about Iran acquiring a nuke because a strike would totally demolish them. Israel is worried that if Iran gets a nuke that they will not be able to be as easily bullied by the US or Israel and that there would be more balance in the region.

    Parent

    If you disagree that the Israeli military is (none / 0) (#132)
    by JohnS on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:25:25 PM EST
    "worried about Iran acquiring a nuke because a strike would totally demolish them,"  then why does Israel continually refer to a nuclear Iran as an "existential threat?"

    And take a look at a map or globe to see how tiny Israel is.

    And for the record, I think Iran has no intention of ever using nukes aggressively. Period.

    Parent

    Fearmongering Works (none / 0) (#139)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:49:10 PM EST
    then why does Israel continually refer to a nuclear Iran as an "existential threat?"

    When you say Israel you mean right wing Israelis, no?

    Same reason the right wing warmongers here referred to Iraq and now Iran as an existential threat. It has to do with the theory that fearmongering and permanent war is even a better tool than religion (opiate of the masses) for staying in power.

    Strauss 101.

    Parent

    What difference does it make? (none / 0) (#152)
    by JohnS on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:24:25 PM EST
    If Chas Krauthammer cries Iran is an  "existential threat" in a crowded American room, that's utter baloney. Is a nuclear iran an "existential threat" to Israel? I don't know, but it certainly appears to be a lively subject of debate over there.

    But either way, what does it matter if it is or isn't true, at least regarding this discussion. Because Clinton's proposal addresses those fears (irrational or not) and calm the ME down.

    Parent

    Yes I Agree (none / 0) (#153)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:49:08 PM EST
    That the baloney is flying. I see both candidates position as equal regarding Israel and the mid east, and nothing particularly new with Hillary's umbrella theory, save that she, and Obama want to make more allegiances in the ME.  What neither candidate will touch is the fact that if having nukes represents an "existential threat" Israel is the "existential threat" to Iran, et al., not the other way around, at least for now.

    Parent
    Ever heard of "ironic quotes"? (none / 0) (#44)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:39:29 AM EST
    The fact is, Iran COULD wipe Israel off the map if they had nuclear weapons. I made no claim that they plan to do so---in fact, I don't believe they have any such plans.

    Parent
    Hardly Irony (none / 0) (#104)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:32:56 PM EST
    Quotes repeating BushCo propaganda only reinforces BushCo intentional mistranslation, aka warmongering, of Ahmadinejad remarks.

    Sorry I do not see your quotation marks as remotely ironic.

    Parent

    Israel does have a submarine which is at (none / 0) (#28)
    by JoeA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:27:59 AM EST
    least capable of launching a nuclear response.  Of course depending on the size of their fleet it might be that they would not permanently have one at sea to maintain an effective deterrent. e.g. The UK has a 4 sub Trident fleet for their nuclear deterrent to ensure that there is always 1 at sea.

    Parent
    Regarding Israeli subs (none / 0) (#55)
    by JohnS on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:48:53 AM EST
    Iran has been getting missiles from Russia, and the Israelis know that.

    Regarding Russian missiles. During the Cold war the USSR determined they couldn't possibly compete with us with regards to its navy. That is, we were just too rich and could build much bigger fleets. So they turned to weapons technology instead and devedloped some pretty scarily effective anti-ship missiles.

    Including these:

    CLUB (KLUB, KLAB) [SS-NX-27]
    The Club system is a family of anti-ship, anti-submarine and land attack missiles with variants for delivery from surface ships and submarines. 

    Parent

    I'm with you on this (none / 0) (#36)
    by JohnS on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:32:54 AM EST
    I sent him an email too and got no reply.

    Because the crux of the problem is that the Israelis think (despite having nuclear warheads on at least 100 intercontinental ballistic missiles and I'm not sure how many nuke tipped medium range cruise missiles on their 3 submarines) that they will NOT be able to respond to a well-planned Iranian nuclear first strike. And the reason is Israel's size. It is tiny and can be easily leveled so that a response would be impossible.

    So Josh's post makes no sense. And Open Left was equally inane, despite recent posts from Bowers from Israel documenting the Israeli paranoia over Iran.

    Parent

    BTD - you're on a roll today! (none / 0) (#23)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:22:44 AM EST
    thanks for all your commentaries.


    Those rules are just plain nuts, BTD.... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:24:18 AM EST
    ...frankly, I had to literally force myself to keep reading past rule #1. How ridiculous.

    I must share a very (none / 0) (#27)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:25:19 AM EST
    brilliant comment from Aravosis bitter blog:

    That's another thing...this "umbrella"...where the hell have I been on this because last I checked "star wars" iodiotic plan to shoot a bullet with a bullet wasn't even able to pass it'¨s own rigged demo test.

    I mean, I think finally they were able to hit one rocket, that had a planned trajectory, no cloaking or other devices to confuse, and all...they finally got one to hit one, once...rigged.

    Last I heard we were NOWHERE near technologically capable of some "shield", "umbrella", "lean-to", "scarf" or any other clever aliiteration to some sort of cover. Keep in mind, this will keep Bush's buddies in yachts and champagne forever, since the missiles cost a lot less that attack, than the smart ones we have to build to defend, and EVEN if we had all the money and resources, it has to work flawlessly and from the very first and only time it needs to be used.

    We're talking fantasy land, and yet Bush, Clinto, the whole dynasty is talking as if this is possible.
    reply

    I mean, can this guy read, or can he read??
    That is quite a takedown of Hillary.

    In fairness, apart from completely (none / 0) (#30)
    by JoeA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:29:35 AM EST
    misunderstanding what "umbrella" people are talking about,  I would agree with his critique of the Missile Defense System.  :-)

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:32:43 AM EST
    I've been thinking about that myself. Instead of diplomatic deterrence, the Deciderer is focused on a multi-billion dollar boondoggle that has been proven effective only at making money for himself and his defense contractor buddies.

    Parent
    And Mrs. Lincoln loved the play. (none / 0) (#32)
    by MarkL on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:31:44 AM EST
    A fine Emily Latella moment! (none / 0) (#121)
    by tree on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:54:05 PM EST
    "....Never mind."

    Parent
    I'm reading (none / 0) (#52)
    by AnninCA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:47:40 AM EST
    but I make no claim to having solutions in this arena.

    My thoughts are basic.  I agree with Hillary that nuclear proliferation is something to avoid.  I like the idea that she broaches this as a security issue with surrounding countries.  A coalition of those countries who do not wish to also feel the need to arm themselves with nuclear weapons make a lot of sense.

    I heard....just me......that this has to be "felt out."  I agree.  It's would require a skillful diplomacy, but it would, indeed, give an open door to discussing the issue with Iran.  I would think the key would be in how we build that coalition.

    Obviously, that's not based on first strike talk.  The world is sick of us.  LOL*

    Obviously.  That would absolutely depend upon a huge shift in foreign policy.

    The MINUTE we elect a Democrat, that door opens.

    And it gives us something very tangible to concentrate upon.

    Iran is dangerous, but none of us wants another war.

    BTD (I still feel stupid calling you that)... (none / 0) (#58)
    by Jay Elias on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:50:14 AM EST
    ...I may not be nearly your equal in looking at this from the point of view of how this theory works politically.  But this is nonsense from the point of view of both deterrence theory and from the point of view of Middle Eastern politics.

    First of all, Israel has a durable nuclear deterrent equal in practical terms to that of the United States regarding Iran.  Were the United States to retaliate to a nuclear strike by Iran against Israel, the travel times would ensure that the US warheads were exploding over already irradiated ground.

    Second, the only way to expand this "umbrella" beyond Israel in a way which would prevent the risk of nuclear proliferation in the region is to enter a formal military alliance with Saudi Arabia.  This is both unlikely to be possible politically, nor is it actually advisable.  

    Third, this is actually unworkable from the perspective of deterrence theory, whatever a single Harvard study suggests.  Nuclear weapons have three uses: obviously as offensive weapons, as a method of coercion, and as a deterrent against attackers.  The third purpose, the universally recognized main purpose of rogue regimes such as Iran, will not be diminished by this nuclear umbrella.  The first purpose is suicidal whether or not the umbrella exists.  And the middle purpose can be used even if those who the nuclear-armed nation wishes to coerce are nuclear armed themselves, as was demonstrated by Schelling and Brodie.

    I'm indifferent to how this is portrayed politically.  But this is not substantive as a theory of deterrence.

    I disagree with you (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:21:24 PM EST
    And your "can't do" spirit.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#111)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:40:34 PM EST
    You're wrong about (none / 0) (#90)
    by facta non verba on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:13:44 PM EST
    this:

    The third purpose, the universally recognized main purpose of rogue regimes such as Iran, will not be diminished by this nuclear umbrella.

    The Iranians are not insane. They understand deterrence. And the umbrella is not just for Israel, it is for all US allies in the region. Turkey is already under that umbrella and has been since 1947. And apart from Iraq, the country that Iran has tried most to destabilize is Bahrein. Read the Asia Times if you want to know more about the region. And we have had a formal military treaty with the Saudis since 1960. Where have you been?

    Parent

    OK... (none / 0) (#91)
    by Jay Elias on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:17:20 PM EST
    ...explain to me how I'm incorrect that the "nuclear umbrella" would do nothing to diminish the deterrent that an Iranian nuclear arsenal would pose against an attack on Iran?

    Meanwhile, the point that the umbrella is for other nations besides Israel is not lost on me.  My point is that for it to deter other nations from developing nuclear weapons (which is its avowed purpose) you would need not merely a treaty, but a formal military alliance with Saudi Arabia (and Egypt, although that is more possible).  And no, the nation that Iran has tried most to destabilize is not Bahrain, but Lebanon.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#116)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:44:23 PM EST
    I utterly disagree with your discussion of deterrence theory and note that was not even Lewis' critique.

    Parent
    It was not Lewis' critique... (none / 0) (#125)
    by Jay Elias on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    ...it is mine.  Considering that this is actually an area where I have some expertise, I don't feel the need to be limited in my discussion with you (which we now do so rarely) to that which Lewis suggests.

    I'm more than interested if you have a more detailed explanation of why you so utterly disagree with me, and by proxy, with the work of Brodie and Schelling.

    Parent

    I got that (none / 0) (#142)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:05:48 PM EST
    Just don't have the time to engage you here.

    Tell you what. Why don't we  do a Docudharma thing on this issue, taking it out of the election madness.

    Parent

    Great idea... (none / 0) (#145)
    by Jay Elias on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:25:42 PM EST
    ...I've been hesitant to even post here because I don't want to be a part of the election madness.

    Let me know how/when would be good for you.  And I hope you've been well, incidentally.

    Parent

    I'll e-mail you about it (none / 0) (#148)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:04:54 PM EST
    Politically It Was A Mistake... (none / 0) (#73)
    by mcdtracy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:01:52 PM EST
    Hillary used this tactic to move to the right in Pennsyvania. It will be used against her in the states that follow. Big mistake. She had a chance to back off and she forged ahead repeating the message to show she'd be a tough Commander in Chief.

    It speaks to judgement and alignment with the the Democratic Party. She's moving to far to the right to build a coalition and then she'll need to move back to the left if she is facing McCain and NOT Obama. The larger strategy for her campaign has been compromised for a short term gain in PA.

    Only 124 days until the Convention! INdecision2008... unless of course the Super-Delegates declare their endorsements and make the outcome clear before then.

    Why wait?

    The Right? (none / 0) (#92)
    by facta non verba on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:18:12 PM EST
    National Security is neither left nor right. It is National. I'd read up on geo-politics and military affairs. This is about averting wars by sending clear signals. It does not preclude diplomacy nor engagement, it only lays out what the consequencs would be if Iran launched an attack on one of its neighbors. Go to Manama or Doha and ask them what they think of the Iranians.

    Parent
    I disagree (none / 0) (#96)
    by JohnS on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:22:20 PM EST
    I do not think Clinton's "umbrella" proposal is right wing at all.  We already posess the nuke arsenal and yes, it is evil. But she is proposing to use this evil arsenal that we already posess to do some good: That is, to keep Israel from preemptively going tactically-nuclear on Iran in the very near future and to keep the arab states from going nuclear.

    We did practically the same thing vis a vis Western Europe and Japan post WWII. Mutually assured Destruction ain't pretty,  but it kept the peace and prevented even more profileration. It was official U.S. policy from Eisenhower's administration through every subsequent administration, Dem or GOP until the Cold War ended.

    It has a proven track record and I have not seen a single critic propose another alternative to the israel/nuclear Iran problem.

    Parent

    Penn (none / 0) (#109)
    by AnninCA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:39:10 PM EST
    vote wasn't about national security.  That much I'm clear about.  I'm reading and trying to learn here about national security issues, but I am on firm ground about her win there.

    That was about the economy.

    His NAFTA attack failed.  He hasn't convinced anyone but his kool-aid drinkers on that score.

    If he's a smart fellow, he'll move on.

    But I want the more "left" of our party to talk to me........a definite centrist........

    about this issue on national security.

    I'm listening.

    Parent

    The Role of the US... reverse the decline. (none / 0) (#123)
    by mcdtracy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    "Penn vote wasn't about national security."

    That's why I think it was a mistake. No one took the bait and commented on Jimmy Carter's excusrion to the middle east but Hillary decided to comment on Iran and how scary they are. Odd.

    Coming from the left, we want a return to diplomacy as an effective tool for US policy... we have a lot of relationships to mend globally. Obama sends a clear message that we have seen the error of the last 8 years. Hillary should send a similar message and NOT create talking points for Islamo-facist recruiters, IMHO. The message that we will wipe them out if they attack Israel will be repeated widely in the middle-east WITHOUT the IF. It will probably be repeated widely here without the IF... "Shame on you, <fill in the source here>"

    The General Election will center on National Security because McCain needs to make his strength the issue.

    Tying National Security issues to the economy will likely counter any uncertainty about a Democrat in office at this time. People will look to get the engine in order before committing more resources to try and fix the middle east... which most believe will take 100 years but we just dont want to be the primary funding source for regime change and nation building anymore.

    The democratic focus needs to return to:

    1. making government effective (use the resources swisely)
    2. fixing our role in the global economy (strength of the dollar and diplomatic statesmanship)

    Just my take. Obama and HRC in-fighting aside.

    Parent
    I am hearing (none / 0) (#130)
    by AnninCA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:19:35 PM EST
    Hillary saying.......this is all about diplomacy.

    She's so not a war-monger.  Her plan is more aggressive than his about removing troops.

    I am sure she'll deliver.

    Why?

    Because I think Bush isn't as stupid as everyone thinks.  He knew.  He added troops.

    He gave Dems an out.

    Hillary is smart.

    She is taking the out.

    Parent

    Iraq isn't even a war... (none / 0) (#157)
    by mcdtracy on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 08:39:59 PM EST
    The war was over in a few weeks. The remaining effort is an occupation.

    At some point I'd like a little candor from a democratic candidate explaining that Dick Chaney wanted a military base in the middle east and this little war was a way to make that happen.

    They never intended to leave... they want a base next to Iran to increase influence in the region and work covertly against Iran's increasing control of the region.

    Osama bin Laden (as an enemy of the Shiite controlled Iran) was someone they could let go while they turned their sites in Saddam Hussein... (oh my I said an Islamic surname: Can you imagine the balls it would take to run for office with such a name? I digress)

    So, I wish Obama (or Clinton) would start calling it an occupation. Afganistan MAY meet the criteria for a war... but it's probably closer to a policing action than war.

    We need a leader that can confront this disaster authentically and re-position the US in the world.
    Hillary's Umbrella just strikes me as more of the same middle east saber rattling that got us where we are now: exhausted with little to show for the investment.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#77)
    by facta non verba on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:06:33 PM EST
    this is the general concept:
    The idea of deterrence theory is to let people know what will happen if they do something.

    Don't blame them though, they were still in diapers when the USSR was still around and China is only a source of cheap goods to them not a nuclear power.

    Making no claim (none / 0) (#86)
    by AnninCA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:11:05 PM EST
    to even begin to predict if such an umbrella can be created.

    I honestly just read, read, read. Where I personally come out?

    Diplomacy is just so tricky in the Middle East.  ON the one hand, I think we all agree.  Palestine must be resolved.  On the other hand, I believe that Iran is a threat.

    I thought the most significant idea was to start exploring just how far Iran is willing to go to obliterate their own population.

    That many martyrs?

    I am, by admission, very unsophisticated about the military stuff.  I saw us plopping down many patriot missles in Afganastan into the dirt.

    That's my uninformed opinion.  We wasted millions of dollars on blowing up dirt.

    So I will read the posts of you who are more "war" oriented than me with interest.

    Nuclear missles (none / 0) (#95)
    by facta non verba on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:21:49 PM EST
    are stored on land. Those are ICBMs and have a range of 5,000 miles. Most nukes are actually always on the move either on submarines or by plane. The submarine has long been the primary deterrent. They can be anywhere anytime. The US 7th Fleet has also been stationed in the Gulf since the 1970s.

    Parent
    Can you (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by AnninCA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:34:20 PM EST
    go a bit further to educate me?

    So are you saying, we could actually take out their missle sites without killing every Iranian?

    I like that idea.

    I live in LA.  We have a lot of very lovely people from the middle-east.  I am really not a "military" mind here.

    I liked my neighbors.  I don't like when we kill people.

    That's incredibly naive, I know.

    But that's how I really feel.

    I don't want to kill people.

    Could we eliminate the threat without killing people?

    Parent

    Some perspective on that (none / 0) (#115)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:44:04 PM EST
    When people think about who's really responsible for that death and destruction.

    And I think the best way I've found to figure out where people really come down on that is to re-format the question.

    And use silly analogies.

    But suffice to say, if a country's leadership knows full well what the response will be and they decide to do it anyway, then I think that they become the responsible party in terms of collateral damage.

    It sounds trite.  I know.  I know of no better way to describe it.

    For instance, I think Hussein had a choice to abide by UN resolutions and then sanctions would have been removed and then millions of Iraqi children would not have starved to death.

    So, again, I think about it like this.  It wasn't the sanctions that starved Iraqi children.  It was Hussein's CHOICE not to abide by UN resolutions.

    I hope all that makes sense, and it doesn't seem too trite.

    The objective here is certainly never to be to kill innocent people.


    Parent

    The death toll from Regime change... (none / 0) (#127)
    by mcdtracy on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:08:43 PM EST
    We focus on our tropp death toll and forget what the actual costy of human life is from our occupation of Iraq.

    And now we are raising the issue of Nuking Iran out of existence.

    100 Years to stabilize the region might be a conservative estimate.

    Hubris: actions taken in order to shame and humiliate the victim, thereby making one-self seem superior.

    It's a poor quality in a leader and unacceptbale for me in a democrat.

    Parent

    Only if you actually think (none / 0) (#128)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:10:37 PM EST
    The intention is to nuke Iran out of existence.

    Sure you must have thought JFK was just trying to figure out a way to bomb the Soviet Union.

    Parent

    Argghhhhh (none / 0) (#133)
    by AnninCA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:27:06 PM EST
    I will continue to read.  I didn't absorb your psot.

    I'm frankly...well, just probably a "bozo" in this are to most.

    My son was raised in LA within an affluent suburb.  He was the darling of the middle eastern neighbors.

    That is a actually all about food.  We loved the variety of food.

    So he was the darling because he love the food.

    Let's get real. Culture is about simple stuff.

    He also won the UCLA communications award because of his own editorial regarding Muslims on that campus.

    However, here's the kicker.

    He's blonde.  He's blue-eyed.  He was raised by a Southern Clinton Democrat.

    (that's me)

    And the story here just so reminds me of how silly pundits can be.

    We are America.......a big ole mix.

    Parent

    I admit (none / 0) (#136)
    by AnninCA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:41:39 PM EST
    I am so not on the same page.
    but I'm listening.

    Parent
    No biggy (none / 0) (#140)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:50:10 PM EST
    It's hard to talk about collateral damage without sounding disgustingly trite anyway.

    Parent
    It is indeed (none / 0) (#100)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:25:34 PM EST
    The fundamental and not to be overlooked or underestimated difference between Neo conservative and Liberal thought on the topic.

    There are those who believe Iranian leadership, if given a choice, will choose to make martyrs of of their country.

    There are those who believe they would not.

    And indeed, Republicans will attack any liberal agenda in that manner.

    They will say "They're not the Russians, if we don't attack first and wqe try deterrence, then THEY will attack first and make themselves into martyrs."


    Parent

    Iran is a threat to who? (none / 0) (#103)
    by cawaltz on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:28:05 PM EST
    As far as threats go I don't see them as a very large one to the US. One might make the argument that they are a threat to the ME and its stability. Of course, if WE make that statement though it'd be like the pot calling the kettle black.

    I see nothing wrong with Clinton making an overt statement saying that if Iran attack us or our allies with nuclear weapons that there will be retaliation. Of course, I think it would have been stupid IMO for the Iranians to believe otherwise even if she DIDN'T say it out loud.  

    Parent

    The only point of nuclear weapons (none / 0) (#97)
    by Trickster on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:22:27 PM EST
    is to appropriately threaten to use them.  Because you can't actually use the things.

    But setting up clear lines which, once transgressed, would (at least supposedly) trigger a nuclear response is a tactic of proven effectiveness.  It can actually stop horrible things like Iran nuking Israel from ever happening in the first place.

    Strangelove:  Mr. President, it is not only possible, it is essential. That is the whole idea of this machine, you know. Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the fear to attack. And so, because of the automated and irrevocable decision making process which rules out human meddling, the doomsday machine is terrifying. It's simple to understand. And completely credible, and convincing.

    Turgidson:  Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines, Stainsy.

    Muffley:  But this is fantastic, Strangelove. How can it be triggered automatically?

    Strangelove:  Well, it's remarkably simple to do that. When you merely wish to bury bombs, there is no limit to the size. After that they are connected to a gigantic complex of computers. Now then, a specific and clearly defined set of circumstances, under which the bombs are to be exploded, is programmed into a tape memory bank.

    . . .

    Strangelove:  [B]ut the... whole point of the doomsday machine... is lost... if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?

    DeSadeski:  It was to be announced at the Party Congress on Monday. As you know, the Premier loves surprises.



    I have long stopped caring what (none / 0) (#99)
    by Joelarama on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:25:03 PM EST
    John Aravosis has to say.  He sees the world through two lenses (1) the gay lens (disclosure:  I'm gay, too), and (2) the Clinton-hating lens.

    He'd agree with Hillary if she weren't Hillary.

    And, he's another hotheaded blogger boy, fixated on a "civil war" in the Democratic Party, on of his won making..

    A baseline level of knowledge on the subject. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Ginny in CO on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:36:39 PM EST
    Let's start with who this Jeffrey Lewis guy is.

    "On April 9th, Jeffrey Lewis, director of the Nuclear Strategy and Nonproliferation Initiative, hosted James Acton, a Lecturer in the Centre for Science and Security Studies in the Department of War Studies at King's College London for a talk entitled "Nuclear Mind Reading: Iran's Nuclear Intentions and the IAEA". Acton analyzed the IAEA's ability to assess states' intent--as opposed to their capabilities--and then asked what the IAEA means when it announces that an issue is "no longer considered to be outstanding." Finally, he discussed the implications this analysis has for the enforcement of arms control treaties."

    So, this is very much his field of specialty. And since he was hosting an event at King's College, probably not without some degree of respect in the field. The New America Foundation is apparently a LIBERAL Think Tank (as opposed to the oxymoronic Conservative Think Tank).

    I have a VERY limited reading on the Cold War and the nuclear arms race in terms of where the specialists have taken it. I am aware that a LOT of the cold war thinking, posturing and rhetoric was found to have been very counter productive.

    In particular, the reality of using nuclear weapons is very simple.
    You put radioactive crap in the air, water and soil. It recognizes no boundaries. Please understand that the bombs we have developed since Hiroshima and Nagasaki are thousands of times more powerful.

    So the probability of our actually using them is?

    The whole mindset of foreign policy that is based on deterrence has been called into question by MANY scholars in FP. Samantha Powers happens to be one of them. Obama impressed a lot of us, who do actually have brains, read a lot of really long, difficult tomes on this stuff, because he brought her into his FP advisory team. You bet I'd rather he was answering the red phone - whatever time of day it rings.

    An introduction to this that I highly recommend is James Carrol's House of War I think it is close to 700 pages.

    Credentialism (none / 0) (#113)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:42:18 PM EST
    is not an argument.

    Parent
    It Is Avarosis (none / 0) (#117)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:45:06 PM EST
    That has the credibility problem here not Jeffery Lewis. He uses Lewis to bash Clinton.

    And as far as this goes:

    Please understand that the bombs we have developed since Hiroshima and Nagasaki are thousands of times more powerful.

    That may be true but the problem is the opposite. BushCo and his neocon cronies have been developing nukes that are much smaller than the bombs we used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The reasoning is that conventional nukes are not possible to ever use because they will cause total devastation, but smaller bombs, bunker busters, will only wipe out a block or two. This kind of thinking is all about putting nukes back into the arsenal for actual use  and not solely deterrence.

    Parent

    deterrence is best when subtle (none / 0) (#108)
    by po on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:36:54 PM EST
    you don't typically get the response you want by demanding that someone give up their attempt to do X by threatening them with X, i.e. it really doesn't work to say don't build a nuclear bomb or we'll nuke you -- all it does is make Iran (like say Iraq)  want that power (to deter, not necessarily to use),or at least have its neighbors perceive that it has or is well on its way to having that power.

    As the US is the only country to actually use nuclear weapons against others, the world knows that we'll use them.  No real need to say so.  Of course, that doesn't stop tv pundits talk dismissively of this or that nuclear strike to further US interests.  And of course it makes simpleton America feel safer to hear their fear(ful) leaders threaten the world with oblivion if our demands are not met.  Still, threatening to go nuclear, unless you really plan on doing so in the near future, is an empty threat, unless your in the middle of a contested presidential race and who can nuke the world quickest is deemed to be a good argument.  

    There are multiple players here (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:20:32 PM EST
    Iran probably knows the consequences of a nuclear attack without being told.  Israel probably knows the consequences as well.  But Hillary's doctrine is designed to speak to other countries in the Middle East as well, and discourage them from getting into an arms race with Iran by letting them know we have their backs.  I think it's important to be very clear and unambiguous in that respect.

    Parent
    So far (none / 0) (#134)
    by AnninCA on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:31:18 PM EST
    that's exactly what I'm hearing, too.

    And it makes sense.

    Parent

    why do we have to have (none / 0) (#135)
    by po on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:35:35 PM EST
    the world's back?  why can't we focus our energies on setting up systems such that neither we nor anyone else needs to have someone else's back.  Otherwise, two bit players get to play games that they should safe in the comfort that the USofA will come riding to the rescue.  I don't know about y'all, but this kid is quite tired of the bill for protecting the world from itself.  

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:47:14 PM EST
    I can offer a two-part answer to that:

    1. As the king of the hill, we have the most to lose if the existing world order gets disrupted, and we have the most to gain if it gets preserved.  I'd analogize it to the top 1% of US taxpayers, who pay higher rates because they have the biggest stake in preserving the status quo.  Setting aside the problem of the military-industrial complex, it's in our national interest to keep things peaceful and stable so we have a multitude of trade partners.

    2. What Hillary is proposing is actually one of the least expensive methods imaginable of playing "world policeman."  It's ridiculously expensive to send our military around the world to contain the ambitious of the Husseins and the Milosevics.  With nuclear deterrence, on the other hand, we already have all the tools we need; we just need to broadcast our willingness to use them if someone crosses the nuclear line.  If Hillary's policy works - and countries like Saudi Arabia decide not to pursue nukes because they're comfortable with the umbrella of deterrence - that means we don't have to devote resources to monitoring the Saudi nuclear program, that means we don't have to worry about the consequences of an escalating arms race in the Middle East, that means we've avoided a huge hassle and the creation of a potential new trouble spot.  On the other hand, if we decide it's not our problem, then nations like Saudi Arabia will decide they have to take their defense into their own hands, which means a lot of hassle and expense for us in the long term even if it allows us to wash our hands in the short term.


    Parent
    king of the hill (none / 0) (#143)
    by po on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 02:09:22 PM EST
    world policeman . . . how about reading today's papers and figuring out what the world policeman is doing to its citizens at home -- locking them up because they won't conform to the prevailing paradigm.  

    Do you really think that we can keep funding our police-state apparatus and acting as the world's policeman at the rate we are indefinitely?  And what will we say to Russia when it decides to provide a nuclear umbrella to its energy surrogates in the region.  OR China in Africa or Latin America?  Kudos, good work, thanks for the help . . . doubt it.  It would probably be more like what we did with Cuba in the 60s, that, even though our installing missile bases in Turkey prompted the Soviet action.  

    Playing games with nuclear weapons when you're not prepared to use them is not a wise policy.  And it wouldn't be cheap or wise to use nuclear weapons in the Middle East (or anywhere else I dare say, least not by us, the only nation to actually employ these WMDs against others).  At some point, you lose all your goodwill and just become an obnoxious pariah and bully intent on getting your way no matter what.  That's not the America I want the world to continue to see.

    and Hussein was our own creation.  Milosevic, just fallout from the end of the Soviet era whose movement would not and could not have been deterred through any nuclear weapon umbrella.

    Parent

    Hillary's speaking (none / 0) (#149)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:08:05 PM EST
    to reassure the American public, as well.  She's saying there's no need to run around talking about "taking out" a potential Iranian nuke facility.  Just make it clear to them that if they do get nukes and they use them, then that will be the end of them.  Takes the whole non-issue, IMHO, of Iran and its possible nukes off the table completely.

    Parent
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#112)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:41:33 PM EST
    No, I think deterrence is better when clear and unambiguous.

    Parent
    read my last paragraph (none / 0) (#119)
    by po on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:48:47 PM EST
    our deterrence is pretty clear and unambiguous -- nothing is ever taken off the table and everyone knows that we spend more than the rest of the world on our military, readily use it for various aims and, in the case of the Middle East, have so many nuclear equipped ships and submarines in the area that any major act of aggression in the region could be met with swift and complete destruction.

    also, one point that might be missing from your analysis of the utility of deterring Iran by threatening nuclear obliteration is that Iran sits on a lot of oil, as do the majority of its neighbors, and it's pretty darn close to Israel, our purported ally in the region.  Taking out Iran through the use of nuclear weapons so that Iran is obliterated would, almost by definition, also take all that oil out of production for a significant period of time.  The radioactive fallout would also likely affect large parts of the region, including Israel.  While great for oil conservation efforts, totally counterproductive if the idea of deterrence is to keep Iran isolated while at the same time keeping the oil flowing and Israel safe.  

    Parent

    Do you not understand (none / 0) (#147)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:03:10 PM EST
    that nobody, and particularly not Hillary, is threatening to "take out Iran"?  Are you unable to read and comprehend?

    Parent
    Did You Miss That Quote? (none / 0) (#150)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:16:11 PM EST
    Or are you saying 'what she really meant was....'  If you missed it  here you go:

    Clinton further displayed tough talk in an interview airing on "Good Morning America" Tuesday. ABC News' Chris Cuomo asked Clinton what she would do if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.

    "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran," Clinton said. "In the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."

    ABC

    If you are saying 'what she really meant was....  '  I think you are missing the point of the entire 'umbrella' thread.

    Parent

    No, it's quite clear from your own (none / 0) (#154)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:20:41 AM EST
    quote that you are the one who doesn't understand and you fail to grasp the point of the "umbrella."

    Your post is really quite silly and I think a deliberate distortion.


    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#155)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:40:22 AM EST
    You must be in love.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#120)
    by cawaltz on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:52:37 PM EST
    In my opinion the biggest mistakes we have made in foreign policy have been where we have done things under the rader rather than been clear and unambiguous.

    Now if we can only get rid of the double standards we seem to have for some countries but not others.

    Parent

    how about (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by po on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:04:09 PM EST
    getting rid of the real double standard the US  relishes, that of do what we say not what we do.  Practicing what you preach is always a nice start when you're trying to convince someone to do what you want them to do.  

    Parent
    So what's Obama's plan? (none / 0) (#118)
    by Radix on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:46:49 PM EST
    We all know that people dislike Hillary's plan, so what's the alternative plan, proposed by Obama? And before anyone says preventing Iran from getting nukes in the first place, which would be great, let's focus on the portion of Obama's plan that deals with Iran having nukes.

    Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated

    Don Henley-The Garden of Allah

    just read (none / 0) (#156)
    by cpinva on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:31:31 AM EST
    the rude pundit. apparently he too either:

    a. is totally baffled by the "umbrella of deterrance" policy outlined by sen. clinton., or

    b. is just lying through his teeth.

    he also seems under the impression that a nuclear glass lined, black-hole-in-the-ground iran would continue producing terrorists for export.

    as well, he appears certain that 500 iranians, tossing a nuclear warhead, would get it to new york.

    since the policy has been around since the soviets first got the bomb, up through the fall of the wall in '89 (at least), i have to reasonably assume he's either totally clueless or willfully lying.

    either way, it's kind of pathetic for a purported "progressive" blog.