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Fair Or Not

Via Confluence, Obama Campaign Manager David Plouffe says:

Fairly or not, the majority of voters don’t trust Senator Clinton.

Well, fair or not, voters think Obama lacks experience. Which all goes to prove, Geoff Garin was right.

By Big Tent Democrat

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    There is some truth to the statement (5.00 / 7) (#1)
    by myiq2xu on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:08:15 PM EST
    Many voters say they distrust Hillary (and Bill) but the explanation for the distrust is simple.

    For sixteen years the Right-Wing Noise Machine has accused both Clintons of everything from immoral behavior to rape and murder. We're not talking the National Enquirer (well, them too but not only) we're talking about major news networks, national newspapers, and numerous elected officials.

    If you heard stories like that about someone for the better part of two decades, wouldn't you be a little wary of them?

    But it's disgusting to see a Democrat repeating that meme.

    Yep. (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by pie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:13:45 PM EST
    but if you can get past that, any some of us did during the 90's, and look at the woman and what she's saying, she stands way above the rest.

    I could never understand why people supposedly hated her so much, but then again, I wasn't reading those, um, "bestsellers" written by Coulter and the Boyz.

    There was no there there.  It was all half-truths, innuendo, or outright lies.

    Parent

    fairly or not (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Salo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:48:20 PM EST
    Plouffe morphed Howard Dean into Osama Bin Laden in an advert.

    Parent
    and despite that (none / 0) (#136)
    by DJ on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:02:08 PM EST
    Pennsylvania still voted for Hillary!  Imagine that.  I don't think the distrust goes deep - more surface thing from all the negative 24/7 cable and talk shows.  They've painted her with that brush for a long time and it hasn't stopped her yet.

    Parent
    And why don't they trust her? (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by janarchy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:08:39 PM EST
    Because the MSM and Obama's surrogates have managed to pour that poison in some people's ears and keep repeating it until they accept it as gospel.

    Why don't we think Obama has any experience?

    Because, sadly for him, he doesn't. And a flimsy resume and a lot of claims otherwise are not going to change the facts.

    Fair or not (5.00 / 13) (#3)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:08:44 PM EST
    Obama is an unpatriotic elitist who hangs out with terrorists.

    Heh (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:18:53 PM EST
    But you know (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:24:10 PM EST
    None of that would really bother me if I thought he could do a good job as President.


    Parent
    or that he could win (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:31:50 PM EST
    I'm afraid he could win (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:36:45 PM EST
    What a disaster that would be for the Democratic Party.

    But more importantly, what a disaster that would be for America.


    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:39:42 PM EST
    the disaster he certainly COULD be if he wins is not something I am losing a lot of sleep over.


    Parent
    Ah, this is where I don't agree. (none / 0) (#72)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:40:14 PM EST
    Doddering, warmongering, economically clueless McCain would be much, much worse.

    I know what you're saying about the Party, though. But the country would be better off with Obama than McCain.

    Parent

    The assumption is (none / 0) (#92)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:46:42 PM EST
    A Democrat couldn't possibly make anything worse, could he?

    Parent
    That's not my assumption. (none / 0) (#111)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:52:27 PM EST
    It's a lesser of two evils thing.

    I know that McCain will make things much, much worse. He told me so. More wars. Jobs aren't coming back. Doesn't know much about the economy. Happy with Scalia as Supreme Court Justice. Bomb bomb bomb Iran. Sunni, Shi'a, whatevah.

    Do I think Obama would be a great President? No. He'd be okay. In an ideal situation, I think Obama would be a good caretaker-type President. You know, after HRC has put the country back on track, he could basically coast along and continue her policies.

    But I just will not and cannot pull that lever for McCain. He terrifies me.

    Parent

    We can disagree (none / 0) (#131)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:59:23 PM EST
    I think Obama will be a disaster.

    He will have different objectives but his efforts to achieve those objectives will be so inept he will cause more damage to America than McCain will.


    Parent

    it's a mute point (none / 0) (#139)
    by DJ on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:03:38 PM EST
    I don't think Obama would win in the GE.

    Parent
    Can we disagree? Yes, we can! (none / 0) (#162)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:25:00 PM EST
    My enjoyment of your posts continues unabated. ;-)

    Parent
    He will, she won't. Heh. nt (none / 0) (#189)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:51:42 PM EST
    I don't trust any politician (none / 0) (#141)
    by myiq2xu on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:07:09 PM EST
    I expect them all to lie to me, just like car salesmen.

    But I have to pick one, and I pick Hillary.  I trust her more than that inexperienced guy.

    Parent

    My sentiments exactly (none / 0) (#176)
    by shoephone on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:47:47 PM EST
    Plouffe's comment is sad proof of the desperation now festering within the Obama campaign.

    Parent
    Over on redstate (none / 0) (#95)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:47:59 PM EST
    They call Clinton untrustworthy too.

    Be sure to write Plouffe a letter letting him know how dissappointed you are in him.


    Parent

    Um... (none / 0) (#118)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:55:16 PM EST
    it was a joke.

    Snark.

    We thought it was funny.

    [rolls eyes]

    Parent

    It's not a joke (none / 0) (#122)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:56:21 PM EST
    Fair or not, that's how Obama is perceived.


    Parent
    Not yet... (none / 0) (#164)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:26:06 PM EST
    but wait till the Republicans get done with him.

    I wonder how Plouffe will feel about HRC's negativity and mean, vacuous attacks then?

    Parent

    That was me (none / 0) (#119)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:55:32 PM EST
    Have you finished your letter to Plouffe yet?

    Parent
    funny (none / 0) (#98)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:49:14 PM EST
    just this morning I was thinking the same thing about Kos and Americablog

    Parent
    or course it didnt dear (none / 0) (#179)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:48:33 PM EST
    I think (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:13:20 PM EST
    I'd rather have a candidate that voters don't trust than one that Americans think doesn't have their best interests at heart.

    Hillary-don't trust but has their best interests at heart.

    Obama-honest but doesn't have their best interests at heart. So I guess they think he's honest about Ayers then? Sometimes honesty isn't that great when you have a record of bad judgement.

    any candidate can be considered "honest" (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Josey on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:27:43 PM EST
    if the media conceals their lies.
    It's 2000 all over again - with the media promoting an empty suit as someone we'd all love to have a beer with.
    The media concealed Bush's past - manufactures negative narratives about Hillary - and is concealing Obama's LIES.
    But the GOP will expose Obama's lies.

    http://tinyurl.com/468n8v

    Parent

    Surveys (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:33:19 PM EST
    I have seen a number of polls where people say they don't trust her but that she is ready to be president and more qualified to be a leader.  Now, this is where the trust thing has been twisted.  

    So, people trust her to be competent, to have their interests at heart and do be a great leader.  What is it they don't trust?  I want specifics.  She will eat their children?  Take their lunch money?  Send their sons and daughters to war?  What is trust?  

    I trust her to be competent.  Do I want her as my child's catechism teacher?  No, she is a politician.  

    Parent

    I'd trust her to be a much better President (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:35:02 PM EST
    than Obama.


    Parent
    Exactly.... (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:38:45 PM EST
    they throw around trust and they don't say with what?  

    Parent
    Opinion polls (none / 0) (#102)
    by felizarte on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:49:40 PM EST
    should b e discarded as soon as the acdtual votes are in.  In Pennsylvania, it is obvious that 10% more of the voters trusted Hillary than those who trusted Obama. Those are true numbers, indisputable.  The same goes for Ohio, Texas, Florida, New Jersey, Massachussetts, New Hampshire, Arkansas, Tennessee, California, New York and excuse me if I omitted any of the other states that TRUSTED HER.

    Parent
    did you hear? the Koskids and DU is saying (none / 0) (#134)
    by thereyougo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:01:24 PM EST
    that she didn't get 10% it was more like 9.2.

    I mean, really.  Too many juveniles on their computers trying to act/do like adults.

    Parent

    Then lets look (none / 0) (#154)
    by cmugirl on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:17:45 PM EST
    at all the places Obama won and make sure there was no rounding by the networks.

    Jeesh are they ignorant!

    Parent

    That's okay. (none / 0) (#155)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:18:25 PM EST
    I can bake my own cookies. ;-)

    Parent
    Hillary should say (none / 0) (#124)
    by felizarte on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:56:32 PM EST
    People should not trust politicians so readily without any demonstrated follow-through on promises made or policies proposed.  That is the attitude that builds a stronger democracy--holding politicians accountable.

    Parent
    Trust (none / 0) (#184)
    by AnninCA on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:03:07 PM EST
    is one of the issues of her negativity factor, which is used to suggest she cannot win.  It's his electability argument.

    However, he has a much worse electability problem.  He's actually losing voters in major Dem. areas.

    There is nothing to speculate about that one.

    His voter base is shrinking, not expanding.  He can't get around that one, either.

    Parent

    In fact, (none / 0) (#93)
    by ghost2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:47:05 PM EST
    Hillary should turn it around, and say that's the best thing about me.  

    Really, wouldn't you rather have people NOT trust politicians, and then the politicians couldn't fool the public every time?

    She should say, look people still vote for me.  So, they only have a healthy skeptism, and a healthy dose of skeptism towards any politician is a GOOD thing.  

    Parent

    and yet (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by ccpup on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:14:25 PM EST
    whether they mistrust her or not, he still cannot make any discernible in-road into her -- and the Democrat's -- core constituencies.

    If she was everything the Obama Campaign claimed she  was, wouldn't the Voters pelted her with rocks or burned her at the stake by now?

    Whenever his campaign speaks these days, all I hear is a monumentally wounded ego and the unstoppable terror that comes from watching the nomination literally slip from your grasp.  Hard to convince the SDs you can win a Big State when you have yet to do it.

    Now (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:14:31 PM EST
    To actually address the topic of trust.

    Now.  Why would a state like PA vote for her when they don't "trust" her.

    Well.  There's different kinds of trust.  If you ask me if I think any politician is 100% truthful or that being untruthful is of paramount importance, I can say "Sure."

    But guess who was the most honest president in my lifetime?  The most trustworthy president in my lifetime?

    Yep.   Jimmy Carter.  The man's integrity was never in question.  

    Now.  Why would a voter vote for someone they think is less than truthful?  

    I'll wait and see if any Obama supporter -- take a shot, Mr. Plouffe --  can figure that one out without insulting that voter.

    I Guess I'm In The Minority (5.00 / 9) (#16)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:17:16 PM EST
    I trust Hillary and I do not trust Obama.

    That statement by Plouffe (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:19:54 PM EST
    is so disingenuous.

    As if Obama's campaign hasn't spent months and millions of dollars propagating that very same meme.

    I really hate Plouffe and Axelrod. They are lying snakes.

    Parent

    Do not hate them (none / 0) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:21:38 PM EST
    They are doing their jobs.

    Politics is what it is.

    Parent

    I don't think (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:24:37 PM EST
    they're doing their jobs.

    I don't think Obama is going to be elected.

    Why?

    Because they are pissing all over me, my candidate and my core beliefs, and telling me it's rain. They are trying to destroy the Clinton legacy and the Party. That is despicable and beyond the pale.

    I hate them.

    I do not hate Obama, however. And I will vote for him. But the majority of the country won't.

    And it will be because of his campaign and the way Plouffe and Axelrod are running it.

    Parent

    Plouffe and Axelrod (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:38:32 PM EST
    not just them.  the whole blogger boy army.
    I have said it before I would take no great pleasure in defeating Obama.
    I would take GREAT pleasure in defeating some of his supporters.

    Parent
    They're eating their own faces and feet (none / 0) (#100)
    by Ellie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:49:17 PM EST
    And burning the furniture to keep the bonfires blazing. (They don't have to, they just weirdly are ... )

    It'll be interesting to see which in-the-tank blogs are still standing at the end of their investment in Obama.

    TL notably maintains its cred for law expertise despite the mayhem of this race for the Dem ticket.

    Parent

    does two make a majority? (none / 0) (#26)
    by kimsaw on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:20:45 PM EST
    'cause I stand with you!

    Parent
    Three makes at least a plurality (none / 0) (#32)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:23:43 PM EST
    don't you think?  Me too.

    Parent
    In the words of Obama (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by janarchy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:25:21 PM EST
    Me too, me too! She's been a phenomenal senator for my state. If I hadn't trusted her before this, I certainly would by now.

    Parent
    Make that one more. :-) (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:27:43 PM EST
    Hey, we could start a religion!

    Parent
    Count (none / 0) (#117)
    by sleepingdogs on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:54:19 PM EST
    me in!

    Parent
    Me too.....I simply don't think alot of Obama (none / 0) (#147)
    by athyrio on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:12:45 PM EST
    supporters are even core Democrats and I am.

    Parent
    I had enough of trusting the good ol boy (none / 0) (#138)
    by thereyougo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:03:01 PM EST
    from Texas to last me a lifetime.

    I trusted then, not now.

    Parent

    Fairly Or Not (5.00 / 13) (#18)
    by BDB on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:17:57 PM EST
    Obama lost a large, critical state on Tuesday to someone the majority of voters don't trust.  

    Fairly or not, I can't help but wonder what that says about what voters think of him.

    Just signed in to recommend this (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:40:42 PM EST
    BDB, your comment is the perfect rebuttal and if the Clinton campaign adopts it, I suspect it will neutralize the Obama campaign's "trust" argument for the foreseeable future.

    Parent
    Hillary should say. (none / 0) (#114)
    by ghost2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:53:12 PM EST
    Yes, they still voted for me by a large majority, and A healthy dose of skeptism towards ANY politician is a very GOOD thing.

    Parent
    That Is Easy (none / 0) (#51)
    by HsLdyAngl on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:33:57 PM EST
    to explain.  Gov. Ed Rendell, one of Hillary Rodham Clinton's most visible supporters, said some white Pennsylvanians are likely to vote against her rival Barack Obama because he is black.

    On February 12, 2008, Governor Rendell made this statement, "You've got conservative whites here, and I think there are some whites who are probably not ready to vote for an African-American candidate,"

    Ergo, racism trumps lack of trust in Hillary in Pennsylvania for some white voters, according to the Governor Rendell.

    Parent

    you are dishonest and you know it. (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by ghost2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:51:32 PM EST
    Rendell was talking in generalities, and he is a straight-shooter.  He said in answer to a question, sure there are some who won't vote for him based on race, just as there are those who won't vote for Hillary based on gender. He then went on to say, those are very small percentages.

    But, by all means, play the race card.  That's the thing Obama campaign knows to do very well.

    Parent

    Think What You Will....... (none / 0) (#150)
    by HsLdyAngl on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:16:19 PM EST
    I am not being dishonest.  I quoted Governor Rendell's own words.  Take it up with him.  He acknowledges the fact that some white Pennslyvanian voters won't vote for a black candidate.  To deny that reality is being intellectually dishonest on your part, not mine.

    Of course, a portion of the male electorate would have a difficult time voting for a female for president.  However, I see race as being a more defining factor than gender in a presidential race.  I am an Obama supporter and I freely acknowledge that our nation has not overcome the racial barrier at certain levels of government.

    Thank you for your thoughts.

    Parent

    Read my comment (none / 0) (#168)
    by ghost2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:31:42 PM EST
    as many times as you need for the meaning to sink in.  

    Acknowledging gender is a factor for a small percentage of voters is NOT the same as saying people don't vote for Hillary because they are sexist.  

    Big difference.

    Parent

    Those new AA voters in Philly (none / 0) (#169)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:34:20 PM EST
    Helped BHO big time too. Otherwise, she would have won with higher numbers. The thing is, when it came right down to it among white voters, it was the experience factor and some of Obama's temperment was showing in the end. I might also point out that 30% of Scranton voted for Obama. That is where she has her ties and Scranton is like 96% white. With that few percents in mind, let's say for rounding off purposes, he got 25% of white voters. And maybe the over 45 don't trust HIM as much. Maybe with life experiences, older people might be able to judge more and know that when they were 21, they thought they knew everything. They didn't and so the experience of people might lead them to understanding that experience is needed to be top CIC.


    Parent
    That bodes ill for Obama's chances (none / 0) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:37:59 PM EST
    to win the GE, if true.

    What is your view on that?

    Parent

    but he's the media darling (none / 0) (#77)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:41:48 PM EST
    Don't let any of these other serious flaws trouble you.  He will win just because the media likes him best, remember.

    Parent
    I do not believe that Clinton voters (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:44:42 PM EST
    are racists. Do you?

    Parent
    You still believe Obama is more electable (none / 0) (#123)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:56:27 PM EST
    solely because of the media.  None of the rest matters.  But it would be nice if you could "let one go" and admit that perceptions are shifting and Obama may no longer be the most electable.

    It is going to start hurting your credibility the longer you hang on to that old notion.

    Parent

    Poll answers are misunderstood (none / 0) (#165)
    by DJ on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:28:04 PM EST
    After voting in our primary (TX) I filled out a form that asked if race and gender influenced me in this election.  I said yes, absolutely.  And I voted for Hillary.  But it was a tough decision because I was so excited to vote for an African American or a Woman.  All things being equal one candidate black male, one white male with same qualifications I would have voted for the black male.  Same thing with gender.  It is (was) exciting to get to this point finally in our nation.  But now I see the news playing Pennsylvania's numbers.  
    "xx number say race had influence, most voted for Hillary" as if you are a racist if you considered race at all EVEN if the consideration favored Obama.  After watching Hill be slandered in the "news" and blogs and seeing how she has kept on going I will be utterly devastated if she does not pull this off. And the reporting and arguments are so unfair.  I am trying to be a big girl and know that things aren't always fair.  But it bites.

    Parent
    agree.....trying to be a big girl (none / 0) (#201)
    by sleepingdogs on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:58:11 PM EST
    I will again look to Hillary for my example of how to do that.  :-)

    Parent
    As an Obama Supporter (none / 0) (#171)
    by HsLdyAngl on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:36:35 PM EST
    I have to agree with you that the issue of race bodes ill for Obama in a GE, despite how I wish it were different.

    I recognize that racism exists in both parties and that some of Clinton's supporters, as evidenced in Pennsylvania, voted for her, despite not trusting her.  The only rational explanation to account for this discrepancy would be the issue of race entering into the equation.

    Now on the more positive note, I sincerely "hope" (no pun intended) that the voters can look beyond their racial biases and vote for Obama, if he ends up being the Democratic nominee.  And if Obama is the nominee, I can easily envision all the new young voters, the cross-over Republicans and the Independents compensating for the lack of votes from these white Democratic voters, who won't vote for a black man for president.

    An additional note to make is that a majority white voters, who wouldn't vote for a black man for president under any circumstances, probably wouldn't vote Democratic in the first place.

    Thank you.  

    Parent

    As a woman, how do you feel when Obama (none / 0) (#190)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:11:43 PM EST
    condescends to Hillary and says things like "I understand that Senator Clinton, periodically when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal."?
    Or brings up the baking cookies thing from Bill's first presidential campaign?

    Or that he had to approve Michelle's boss and the job before she could take it?

    Do you want to go back to the 1950's and stay home and raise the kids while your man goes out and brings home the bacon?

    I don't and I don't think the rest of the women in this country do either. Obama isn't big on women's rights, and as a woman you should take that into consideration.

    And remember, when he looks down his nose at Hillary and comes out with a sexist dig at her, he is doing it to you too. I hope you like it. I don't.

    Parent

    HsLdyAngl, then Sen. Obama should quit now (none / 0) (#191)
    by lookoverthere on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:22:23 PM EST
    I recognize that racism exists in both parties and that some of Clinton's supporters, as evidenced in Pennsylvania, voted for her, despite not trusting her.  The only rational explanation to account for this discrepancy would be the issue of race entering into the equation.

    No, that is not the only rational explanation. Just because you say so doesn't make it a fact.

    People voted FOR Sen. Clinton for a myriad of reasons. Including that she has more experience. Her debate performance was better. She has a stance on healthcare that people agree with. She was able to connect with them as she criss-crossed the state. He11, there probably were pople who voted for her because they like her hair.

    However, if you want to believe the only rational reason for someone to vote for Sen. Clinton though not trusting her is racism, then following your argument, Sen. Obama should not be the Dem nominee because he cannot win the general election. So if he can't be the nominee, he should withdraw now.

    Parent

    Of Course (none / 0) (#200)
    by HsLdyAngl on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 08:54:17 PM EST
    Voters in Pennyslvania voted for Hillary for a myriad of reasons.  The topic that we are discussing is NOT why some voters in Pennsylvania voted for her, but why they VOTED FOR HER WHEN THEY DO NOT TRUST HER.  

    Once again, the most obvious reason was racism.  Please read Governor Rendell's comments that I posted above.

    Thank you.

    Parent

    very true! (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Josey on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:18:16 PM EST
    >>>It's an important distinction. The Obama campaign has chosen from its inception not to treat Clinton with the same respect. In fact, the Obama campaign has made an unprecedented assault on her character -- not her positions, but her character -- saying one thing about raising the tone of political discourse but acting quite differently in its treatment of Clinton.

    They've not only (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by pie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:23:00 PM EST
    attacked her, but her husband, a former Democratic president and a pretty good one.

    Stupid.

    Parent

    Obama trashing the Clinton admin (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Josey on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:36:45 PM EST
    probably didn't go over too well in PA, OH, TX, CA, FL, etc.

    Parent
    And they keep repackaging that 'divisive' smack (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Ellie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:35:59 PM EST
    Rather than making a reasonable case to voters of why he is better suited to be President than either HRC or McCain.

    Basing his public stance on figuring new ways to slam Sen Clinton based on right wing talking points, at this stage, only underscore his skimpy credentials for leadership, policy=making and governance.

    What does he plan do, pray tell, if by some miracle he becomes President? Hang out and complain about HRC aka The Clintons?

    Parent

    why does the clinton team (5.00 / 7) (#23)
    by Turkana on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:20:02 PM EST
    keep using these negative attacks that could help the republicans, in the fall? oh, wait!

    Should we worry about MA with Obama? (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by Manuel on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:21:47 PM EST
    From Survey USA

    Deval Patrick's ratings are trending down.  Obama is closely associated with him.  Will this hurt Obama?  IMO Clinton is stronger than Obama against McCain on the economy.

    No, we shouldn't worry. (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:33:14 PM EST
    After all, Obama lost MA to HRC despite the endorsement of the Governor, John Kerry and Ted Kennedy. They love him there!

    Oh, wait....

    Parent

    Obama lost MA (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ccpup on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:33:58 PM EST
    on Super Tuesday even WITH the "political machine" of Kennedy, Kerry and Deval Patrick behind him.  By 10 points!

    Guess the Voters in MA already heard the "hope and change" spiel from Patrick and realized soon after he was elected that it was a lot of useless hogwash. With that tasty little nugget of info in their rear view mirror, there was no way they were gonna buy it from Obama.

    And they won't again.

    Parent

    People in Massachussetts (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:49:14 PM EST
    could it be that they are just reluctant to vote for a black man?

    /snark

    Parent

    Yeah probably. UGH n/t (none / 0) (#161)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:24:06 PM EST
    But remember (none / 0) (#58)
    by janarchy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:36:17 PM EST
    in Obamaworld, winning = losing and losting = winning. So his supporters can celebrate his fabulous 'win' against McCain in the GE when it goes to McCain, right?

    Parent
    Yesterday (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Manuel on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:51:04 PM EST
    there was a thread about how we could win in the long run even if Obama lost in the fall by capturing the new generation of voters.  I think the new generation of voters will be the same as the old generation.  "It's the economy, stupid".  Voters trust Clinton more than Obama on the economy.  And they may end up trusting McCain more than Obama on the economy as well.

    Parent
    Yes..... (none / 0) (#163)
    by miriam on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:25:33 PM EST
    These "new" voters will be just like old voters when they leave school and have to stop living off Mom and Dad. It's amazing how political perspective changes when one is forced to become responsible for oneself.  

    Parent
    They Will Be Celebrating That He Lost By Less (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:00:13 PM EST
    than the polls originally forecasted, declaring it a win and BTW, IACF.

    Parent
    and it will be Hillarys fault (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:47:55 PM EST
    and ours, or course.

    Parent
    Yeah... (none / 0) (#170)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:34:57 PM EST
    Definitely looking forward to long discussions about losing by 9.4% and not 10% and how he was never supposed to be expected win states in the Appalachian corridor anyway.

    I am finding this all very depressing.

    Parent

    Depressing You Bet (none / 0) (#175)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:47:27 PM EST
    Also, IMO there is at least a 50% chance that the coattails that Obama brings to down ticket candidates will result in a net negative effect. I will be very interested to see poll data on how the Rev. Wright ads running against Dems in N.C. who endorsed Obama effect their chances of winning.

    Parent
    I am not sure I buy (none / 0) (#186)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:13:37 PM EST
    the downticket either.  but I think it is possible at least in some places.
    I am really just trying to find a reason to see a depressingly empty glass half full.


    Parent
    Maybe Tomorrow I Will See The Glass (none / 0) (#188)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:31:15 PM EST
    half full but all I'm seeing right now is how many of the right wing attacks the Republicans always use are being reinforced by Obama and his campaign. Instead of helping the American people see how badly the conservative strategy has failed them, Obama IMO is doing long term damage to the party.

    Parent
    Rules don't apply (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by cawaltz on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:25:06 PM EST
    to the "creative class," just us little people. Now why does that notion sound vaguely familiar?

    The word you're thinking of (none / 0) (#43)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:30:05 PM EST
    is "plutocracy."

    Isn't that supposed to be, like, not as good as democracy?

    Me so confused.

    Parent

    Is that rule by Pluto? So, which Pluto? (none / 0) (#193)
    by lookoverthere on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:45:01 PM EST

    The cartoon dog?

    The god of the underworld?

    Or the it-was-a-planet-now-it-ain't? True story: hen my fab GF heard about this she looked at me and said, "I suppose we should write an orbituary."

    Parent

    Obama: Thinnest Resume in American History (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Exeter on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:29:17 PM EST
    Not only as a Drm nominee, but as a potential  President. The audacity of hop... ing you can win, Obama!

    Lack of Experience or Lack of Message? (5.00 / 6) (#44)
    by Petey on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:31:08 PM EST
    "Well, fair or not, voters think Obama lacks experience."

    I think Krugman today says it even better:

    Let me offer an alternative suggestion: maybe his transformational campaign isn't winning over working-class voters because transformation isn't what they're looking for.

    From the beginning, I wondered what Mr. Obama's soaring rhetoric, his talk of a new politics and declarations that "we are the ones we've been waiting for" (waiting for to do what, exactly?) would mean to families troubled by lagging wages, insecure jobs and fear of losing health coverage. The answer, from Ohio and Pennsylvania, seems pretty clear: not much. Mrs. Clinton has been able to stay in the race, against heavy odds, largely because her no-nonsense style, her obvious interest in the wonkish details of policy, resonate with many voters in a way that Mr. Obama's eloquence does not.

    Yes, I know that there are lots of policy proposals on the Obama campaign's Web site. But addressing the real concerns of working Americans isn't the campaign's central theme.

    Tellingly, the Obama campaign has put far more energy into attacking Mrs. Clinton's health care proposals than it has into promoting the idea of universal coverage.

    During the closing days of the Pennsylvania primary fight, the Obama campaign ran a TV ad repeating the dishonest charge that the Clinton plan would force people to buy health insurance they can't afford. It was as negative as any ad that Mrs. Clinton has run -- but perhaps more important, it was fear-mongering aimed at people who don't think they need insurance, rather than reassurance for families who are trying to get coverage or are afraid of losing it.




    Obama's campaign when it comes down (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:47:15 PM EST
    to it really is not about hope.  Not when it comes down to it.  It about managing expectations.  Kerry gets on TV appearing as a surrogate for Obama saying that Clinton's healthcare plan is DOA in the Senate because it is too bold and it would upset Republicans in the Senate.  

    Obama is not audacious - he is tenative.  He doesn't seem to get it.  I don't get the sense he understands just how seriously screwed up things are in this country right now.  

    How in the world is it that he lost in Ohio and learned NO lessons about how to talk to the working class folks?  How in the world is it that the guy who says he is going to bring "change" to Washington seems completely unable to adjust and adapt to speak to those audiences?

    I never thought there was much to the guy, but I did think he was smarter than this.  I did think he was nimble enough to find ways to appeal to a wide audience.  The reality is that Clinton has been the one who had adjusted, changed, shifted and fine tuned and Clinton is the one who appears more responsive to the needs of the electorate.

    Meanwhile Obama still seems to think that the strapped families in this country give a damn about Washington lobbyists and whether or not a politician is seated or standing while eating with them.  They.Do.Not.Care.  Those people want someone who cares about their lives, not Washington intrigue and silliness.  They want to know what the change is going to yield.  Change is a given - the question is what the change will do for them.

    Parent

    Yup (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Petey on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:56:00 PM EST
    "I never thought there was much to the guy, but I did think he was smarter than this.  I did think he was nimble enough to find ways to appeal to a wide audience.  The reality is that Clinton has been the one who had adjusted, changed, shifted and fine tuned and Clinton is the one who appears more responsive to the needs of the electorate."

    Yup.  And the funny thing is that the Obama challenge has nicely positioned Clinton for the general election and administration.

    Clinton would never have been able to connect with working class voters this well without getting to compare herself to Obama for months on end.

    I now think Clinton has a decent shot to win places like West Virginia in the general election, and I don't think that shot would've existed without the contours of the nomination race we've been watching.

    Parent

    I think she may have. It does help (none / 0) (#194)
    by nycstray on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:52:35 PM EST
    having the campaign go on so she gets good solid face time with them. She has learned the lessons of the working and rural classes, blue and red. It does help that Obama's experience is mostly Southside Chicago, as it shows the contrast. She worked hard to win over NYS outside of NYC and did even better when she ran for re-election. Her experience is more inclusive than his is and it shows in her campaigning and her policy statements.

    Parent
    If You Want To Get Picky About It (none / 0) (#135)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:01:47 PM EST
    Both.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by Steve M on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:41:10 PM EST
    This lack of trust, it's just something that, you know, HAPPENED.  Unfair attacks by political opponents surely did not contribute.

    I trust Hillary and the Clinton family (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by diplomatic on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:44:31 PM EST
    I think our country would be in safe and capable hands under the leadership of Hillary Clinton.  The polls show that many people do trust her, despite the spin.

    Parent
    Yeah well I don't trust her or any other (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:43:41 PM EST
    politician or public servant either really.

    I am always skeptical - hopeful at times - but still skeptical.

    The only reason I listen to campaign rhetoric is to find out what I won't get from a candidate - not so much to figure out what I will get.

    Does that mean (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:50:07 PM EST
    "Fair or not" is the new "some people say."

    Better the devil you know than the devil you don't (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by cymro on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:50:38 PM EST
    I'm not calling either candidate "a devil," just pointing out how well that idiom seems to apply in this instance:

    it is often better to deal with someone or something you are familiar with and know, even if they are not ideal, than take a risk with an unknown person or thing

    This is not my own reason for supporting Hillary, but it may apply for many voters who are not as plugged in to the election news and analysis, especially in these uncertain times.

    Hillary's experience and strength are known quantities, and I think she is gaining in credibility every week for demonstrating those qualities during this campaign. And after she gets the nomination, we will be grateful to the Obama campaign for helping her to prove herself in front of the electorate.

    Fair or not (now I can say whatever I want) (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:56:37 PM EST
    Obama is  hypocritical.   He says he is not a politician, yes his minister, his mentor, says he is a politician.  Obama says he cared for the people, yet he let Rezko take away their affordable housing and never criticized him.  He says he has experience in foreign policy and he only gives us an example of his childhood.  He says he is transparent and gives no press conferences.  He says he is religious, yet he used religion for political purposes.  He says he  is a Democrat, yet he trashes former Democratic presidents and praises Republicans.  He says he is for health care, but not universal health care.  

    Have I given enough examples?  

    lol (1.00 / 4) (#5)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:12:32 PM EST
    when hillary loses, I am going to start an anger management company to help all the hillies deal with their rage.  Maybe since this is the only blog i read or participate in I am missing the hate filled rhetoric from obamaheads, but the anger and vitriol here is ROVIAN.

    Someone tell me again, how does hills platform differ wildly from obamas???

    Healthcare (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:14:48 PM EST
    Obama doesn't support UHC.

    Parent
    Mercenaries (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Kathy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:16:46 PM EST
    She's not going to keep using American tax dollars to pay hired killers.

    Parent
    Mortgage crisis (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:20:32 PM EST
    30 day moratorium on foreclosures; cap the interest rates for 5 years; $50 billion to help home owners.

    Parent
    sure (none / 0) (#47)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:32:22 PM EST
    sounds a lot like Obama's.  Do you think Hillary wrote that herself or looked to her advisors?  Do you think Obama wrote it hisself or asked his advisors?

    For the record, i think locking in rates is a bad idea because it punishes the next round of borrowers as banks will raise rates to cover losses.

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:42:48 PM EST
    What's Obama's?  B/c all I've heard from him is that homeowners need to take responsibility for their bad mortgages which, to me, sounds like:  too bad, so sad about yer house, the bank's coming tomorrow to evict you.

    I don't think Obama's plan is like Clinton's, I think Obama's plan is not as good.  Also, Clinton was out front on this issue and Obama lagged behind and that's important to me:  I prefer a leader on issues rather than a follower.

    But if you've got specific facts, I'm glad to hear them. So far, you've not provided any.

    Parent

    facts about what (1.00 / 4) (#91)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:46:22 PM EST
    facts that many of the Hill supporters here need anger mgmt?  Facts that the platforms are nearly identical?  Facts that NEITHER Hill or Barry write their own plans?  Facts like Hill could not get out of the starting gate with UHC 10 years ago when we had a Trillion dollar surplus?  What facts do you seek?

    Parent
    Fact (none / 0) (#185)
    by themomcat on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:04:31 PM EST
    Hilary's health care plan failed in 1993, 15 years ago when we did not have a trillion dollar surplus. That is a fact.

    Parent
    You do need to look at the advisors (none / 0) (#199)
    by dotcommodity on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 08:42:20 PM EST
    for any candidates for president.

    That is because presidents will select their advisors. Who they pick shows their judgement, and it shows the likely policy, and it shows if they can be pushed around on policy and be a mere puppet as Bush was for big oil. Puppet presidents are the most dangerous.

    I looked at Cheney and Pearl and the neo-con thinkers, and knew what a disaster the Bush presidency would be.

    Obama's clean energy advisors are two Republicans, a nuclear power CEO and two ethanol lobbyists, you can read their advice directly at the Bipartisanpolicycenter.org or see how unbalanced his plan is towards ethanol, clean coal and nuclear by skimming through it, and noting how many mentions of wind or solar power there are by comparison.

    Clinton's advisor Gene Sperling of The Center For American Progress has devised a clean energy plan that is influenced by the Pew Climate, NRDC and Al Gore's ideas, and includes the 12 Socolov/Pacala wedges to wean us from the oil age safely with a balanced menu of solutions to climate change (including some ethanol, but not relying on it).

    Parent

    if they beat this drum enough, it will be (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by thereyougo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:19:43 PM EST
    the defining issue that elects HRC.

    I really believe this.

    Parent

    yes (none / 0) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:34:39 PM EST
    beat away

    Parent
    And the cost (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:22:49 PM EST
    is 50-60billion less a year.  Much easier to start with a lower financial burden and increase as you deal with cost per person regarding health. The US has the highest cost per person on the planet, there are 2 problems here, the uninsured and the costs of care in general.  I would rather see an incremental plan to cover children first and all adults long term, than a universal plan that has no chance at passing the house and senate.

    Parent
    Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:37:17 PM EST
    won't cost less, it will probably cost more and planned for failure. And yes I know, it's something that Obama is already willing to concede he can't do. What else is he unwilling to try for? IMO, everything because he has no values. He told the unions in IL that he supported single payer and then caved and ended up with a committee. I imagine that will be the story as to what will happen on the slim chance that he makes it to the WH. Pretty much nothing accomplished.

    Parent
    hey can you provide me (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:43:46 PM EST
    something that shows it will not cost less?  because from what i have read your statement is completely untrue.

    Parent
    Krugman (none / 0) (#90)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:45:16 PM EST
    Go read Krugman.  Obama's plan costs more and does less.

    Parent
    this krugman? shill (1.00 / 2) (#110)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:52:13 PM EST
    KRUGMAN THEN: Obama's Health Care Plan "Is Smart And Serious, Put Together By People Who Know What They're Doing." Paul Krugman wrote, "The Obama plan is smart and serious, put together by people who know what they're doing...So there's a lot to commend the Obama plan." [New York Times, 6/4/07]

    KRUGMAN NOW: "The Fundamental Weakness Of The Obama Plan Was Apparent From The Beginning." Paul Krugman wrote, "The fundamental weakness of the Obama plan was apparent from the beginning." [New York Times, 11/30/07]


    Parent

    Guess you didn't read the whole article: (none / 0) (#143)
    by pie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:09:07 PM EST
    Now for the bad news. Although Mr. Obama says he has a plan for universal health care, he actually doesn't -- a point Mr. Edwards made in last night's debate. The Obama plan doesn't mandate insurance for adults. So some people would take their chances -- and then end up receiving treatment at other people's expense when they ended up in emergency rooms. In that regard it's actually weaker than the Schwarzenegger plan.

    I asked David Cutler, a Harvard economist who helped put together the Obama plan, about this omission. His answer was that Mr. Obama is reluctant to impose a mandate that might not be enforceable, and that he hopes -- based, to be fair, on some estimates by Mr. Cutler and others -- that a combination of subsidies and outreach can get all but a tiny fraction of the population insured without a mandate. Call it the timidity of hope.

    On the whole, the Obama plan is better than I feared but not as comprehensive as I would have liked. It doesn't quell my worries that Mr. Obama's dislike of "bitter and partisan" politics makes him too cautious. But at least he's come out with a plan.

    Senator Clinton, we're waiting to hear from you.

    Written before Clinton put hers out. Heh.

    Parent

    SCHIP (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:44:43 PM EST
    We already have an incremental plan to cover children first.  It's called SCHIP and was one of Hillary's accomplishments during Bill's administration.  You're about, hmmmm, a decade behind the curve here.

    Parent
    you need to read some (none / 0) (#101)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:49:35 PM EST
    States must cover all children under age 6 with family incomes below 133% of poverty and children ages 6 to18 with family incomes below 100% of poverty.

    That is not ALL children.

    Parent

    I didn't say it (none / 0) (#180)
    by Emma on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:51:46 PM EST
    covered all children.  I said it was an incremental plan to cover children.

    Parent
    Parents will be given a mandate to (none / 0) (#183)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:58:58 PM EST
    cover their children.  Sheesh.

    All those Obama complaints about "mandates" and here his plan not only mandates coverage, but throws the sole burden on parents already strapped for cash and none of the rest of us.  Talk about the potential fodder for the GOP on that subject... "Barack Obama hates American families.  His healthcare plan will put parents in the crosshairs, but everyone else will have a choice."  I can just see the ad now.  Or he'll just abandon healthcare reform all together which is what I think he is setting up for already.  He'll chalk it up to being "post partisan" and not upsetting his Republican colleagues.

    Parent

    Wrong. (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by janarchy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:15:17 PM EST
    Try it the other way around. Obama's the "me too!"-er, not Hillary. Pity he can't come up with his own thoughts or policies rather than parroting hers. Perhaps some of us are angry because we're tired of him getting the pats on the head and the cookies for copying her work.


    Parent
    Are you talking about my post? (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:16:27 PM EST
    Excuse me? Anger? No, I reject your characterization.

    Parent
    was not addressed to (none / 0) (#31)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:23:34 PM EST
    you btd.  was addressed to commenters on this site in general.  sorry for the miscommunication

    Parent
    Ok (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:24:17 PM EST
    mind  . . . on both sides of the divide.  All the handwringing over negative campaigning is getting old.  We have a knock down drag out primary fight on or hands.  Let's just battle it out and do our best to unite behind the winner.

    Parent
    Simple (5.00 / 6) (#15)
    by Fabian on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:17:02 PM EST
    Clinton listens a lot.
    Obama talks a lot.

    I do not like to be preached at and "inspired".  I prefer boring, detailed solutions and a comprehensive grasp of the problems we face.

    Parent

    Keep comparing (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by pie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:20:29 PM EST
    Hillary supporters to Rove and see where it gets you.

    Constructive criticism is not the same as smears.

    I believe that, right now, Obama isn't as qualified to be president as she is.  That's not to say he wouldn't make a good one someday.  If that's considered Rovian, then there's something wrong with you.

    Parent

    Nothing wrong with your (1.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:57:42 PM EST
    post, in fact I like it, save for the threat about keep calling it rovian and you will see what happens, woooo, so sexy.

    Parent
    HRC didn't run on a Change / Unity platform (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Ellie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:28:43 PM EST
    She's promised to listen to voters, to work for her votes, to fight hard for issues that she and voters believe in and that she's experience in the system as it exists. She has met her promises during her campaign.

    Obama has promised to establish a different style and tone of politics. He hasn't met his own standards nor delivered any of his promises, even at the campaign level.

    Parent

    Ar you kidding me (1.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:35:20 PM EST
    she has promised to listen to voters.

    Wow, that is novel.  I don't think anyone has ever said that.

    Does she promise "to make america great again" as well?

    Parent

    She has kept her promises. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:37:05 PM EST
    Obama hasn't.

    Parent
    what promises? (1.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:40:10 PM EST
    specificity is important when making and winning an argument.

    Parent
    Oh please. (none / 0) (#78)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:41:50 PM EST
    The promises that were referred to one comment above yours.

    YAWN.

    Parent

    are you serious (1.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:55:39 PM EST
    she promises to work hard? to fight? those are the promises?  you have very low estimations of what a pres candidate should be.  

    I have critiqued obama on this site several times, especially for empty rhetoric, i don't recall any of you mopes bashing me for it, nor was i bashed by any Obamaheads.  

    Methinks the Hill crowd is a wee bit bitter and the Obama crowd on this site a wee bit more intellectually honest.  


    Parent

    Bye, troll. (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by madamab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:21:03 PM EST
    I won't be responding to your moronic statements any more.

    Parent
    You're a clutter troll; no need to repeat points (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Ellie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:41:07 PM EST
    Just re-read all the posts you're asking to be repeated to you and save the bandwidth.

    Parent
    elli elli (1.00 / 3) (#126)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:56:41 PM EST
    It is not nice to call people names, which is why I will not call you a big headed empty poster.

    Parent
    Oh, good, a lesson in etiquette (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Boia on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:48:27 PM EST
    It is not nice to call people names, which is why I will not call you a big headed empty poster.

    Excellent point!  Which is why I will absolutely refrain from calling you a nagging, illiterate,  self-infatuated nuisance.  Nor will I point out that a proclaimed lifelong Democrat whose mechanical response to a challenge from another Democrat is to insult the challenger with a stale and witless wisecrack is the blog equivalent to a mosquito in a darkened bedroom--noisy, irritating, difficult to get rid of but, ultimately and definitively, merely a buzzing insect.

    As you note, it would not be nice to say these things, so I won't, and I'll urge everybody else not to, either.

    Parent

    and I will (none / 0) (#203)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:50:35 AM EST
    be waiting here for something of substance besides HIllary making America great again.sheesh. Jim Jones had a better pitch

    Parent
    She Hasn't Put Social Security On The Table (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:28:45 PM EST
    She hasn't had a cure the gays minister campaign for her or refuse to have her picture taken with Gavin Newson.

    She hasn't declared she will adopt a foreign policy like Reagan and BushI or stated that she will put Republicans in the positions of Sec. of Defense and State.

    Her health care program is the only workable way to obtain universal health care and she would never run a poison pill ad against health care.

    She hasn't put down working people.

    She is knowledgeable about what is actually contained in her stated policies and Obama can't even talk about his without stumbling around. I'm not even sure he knows what actually contain except for an overview.

    Also, I think I will need that anger management class more after Obama loses the GE if he becomes the nominee.

    Parent

    Ah my first client! (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:36:19 PM EST
    yippeee!  What if he wins though? I mean he is beating Hillary in delegates and pop vote.  that seem strange to you?

    Parent
    Delegate Counts Sure (none / 0) (#144)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:10:20 PM EST
    Popular vote - maybe not.

    I never put it past people to vote for a candidate based on media hype and not substance. After all, one way or another, GWB was elected twice.

    Parent

    yes, but (none / 0) (#196)
    by Josey on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:47:33 PM EST
    >>>he is beating Hillary in delegates and pop vote.

    Those were acquired in the pre-Wright pre-Bitter/Cling-gate era.
    Now if the media had actually scrutinized Obama - like they do the Clintons....
    Oh heck! if the DC establishment and elites that support him had scrutinized him beyond his rockstar lights....


    Parent

    Obama's economic advisor (none / 0) (#45)
    by cawaltz on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:31:32 PM EST
    derided Clinton when she attempted to merge the concept of providing economic stimulus to individuals while also wanting to increase government spending on governmental programs and infrastructure. For the record, I agree with Clinton.

    Parent
    you're on the wrong site for Rovian tactics (none / 0) (#56)
    by Josey on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:35:25 PM EST
    >>>>>Someone tell me again, how does hills platform differ wildly from obamas???

    She has one - he copies her.
    FYI - her name is Hillary.

    Parent

    I have been on this site (none / 0) (#67)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:39:07 PM EST
    for the better part of 5 years, maybe more, and you?  

    For the record, I will gladly vote for Hill if Obama loses and will campaign for her as well.  I don't dislike her or her policies, just her fans who are as silly as the obamaheads who think he is a savior...

    But in the meantime, her campaign and many of her followers is rovian.  It is ok, sharpens my guy for the GE

    Parent

    Be sure to let the Obamaheads (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:42:41 PM EST
    Over on Dailykos.com how silly you think they are.

    Otherwise you're just over hear pretending to treat everyone with equal measures of disdain.


    Parent

    never been there (none / 0) (#130)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:59:16 PM EST
    eddie, this is me home, whether i agree with J's politics or not, I love that this site is a great advocate for the politics of crime, and i come here for that.  The politico stuff is appetizer5

    Parent
    Well head on over there (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:01:13 PM EST
    And let them know your thoughts.


    Parent
    eddie (1.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:03:59 PM EST
    I will stay here as I have for many years, prior to your arrival and long after you are gone.  I never did like you or your posts, but you are welcome to stay, you have my permission.

    Parent
    I didn't say you couldn't post here (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:14:31 PM EST
    I said you don't come off as very credible when you make a claim that you think both groups are silly but can only muster the courage to say so to one group and not the other.

    Hey.  At least one person I ran into here could point to a post or two elsewhere where they were criticizing Obama supporters likewise.

    I had to concede that point to them.

    Parent

    "rovian" (4.75 / 4) (#85)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:44:14 PM EST
    I love it when you guys use that.  Have you seen Greenwald's book about how Rove and the Republicans create a "narrative" for a candidate.  Their's usually gets to be a hero, honest, brilliant etc. ,the opponent is painted as someone not to be trusted, a liar, a scum.  

    Who from the get go said that Obama is a story?  Axelrod.  A narrative.  What has his campaign done when they saw he had no chance with AA voters?  Easy, "frame" (hate that word) the Clinton's as racist.  

    Now, it continues, valiant honest sir Obama, is fighting the wretched witch Hillary and he would be fine if she was not soiling him.  

    This is Rovian.  So go learn what Rove did.  

    Parent

    There are some differences (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:40:39 PM EST
    Those differences are minor compared to a different set of distinctions.

    Parent
    sure i do (none / 0) (#137)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:02:36 PM EST
    he got them southerners and soccer moms feared of them alkaider figgers, and got dem angry at "the more electable" candidates "cowardly" heroic war background.  He done also got peoples angry at the sissification party of the democrats, see they just cowards that would let saddam run wild.

    One of the worst presidents in modern history won reelection on the above, either americans are dumb, angry or just in love with our asskickin texas boys...

    Parent

    RE (none / 0) (#187)
    by Evie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:24:52 PM EST
    Because Americans are still dumb, angry or just in love with our waffle-eatin' Illinois boys. OBVIOUSLY.

    Parent
    Hillary can do what she says she can (none / 0) (#192)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:31:01 PM EST
    Obama can't. She has the details of her plans and policies on the tip of her tongue. Obama tells us to go read his web site because his STAFF will have them up soon. So if HE did the policies and plans, why can't he articulate them?

    And if, by some mischance, Obama gets the nomination, I am going to get ready for a McCain presidency because Obama cannot beat him in the GE. Too much fresh baggage, and he lies about it.

    I can't wait to hear his explanation for not driving or walking a mile to see the housing conditions inflicted by his good friend, Tony Rezko, on Obama's constituents. While he was attending parties for billionaire friends of Rezko's, his constituents were living in unheated slums put up by his host. No way that is going to not be exploited to the max in the GE. And what is Obama going to say? He was too busy house-hunting?

    He claims to care about "ordinary people", well, there were ordinary people suffering in his district, and he didn't do squat. So you just go ahead and do anger management programs. You are going to need one at the end of the GE. So will Obama.

    Parent

    I read more on the (none / 0) (#6)
    by waldenpond on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:12:47 PM EST
    David Plouffe piece at RCP.  Obama will win the blue states and rest assured...[So our supporters, the Clinton supporters -- this question of will you vote for the other person in the election in the fall -- you know, there's hard feelings. So a lot of people are saying no, but we seem to forget history. There's always hard feelings, and then the party comes together. And I think everyone ought to take a deep breath here and understand that the Democratic nominee is going to get the majority of Democratic voters.]

    Whew, I was worried.  I keep wondering how they are going to make me mark my ballot for him, but somehow they have a plan.  Maybe I shouldn't wear my tinfoil hat while at the computer and the 'plan' will come over the intertoobules?

    paging Charlton Heston... (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Kathy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:17:53 PM EST
    I keep wondering how they are going to make me mark my ballot for him

    With my cold, dead hand.

    Parent

    Waldenpond- (none / 0) (#82)
    by leis on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:42:58 PM EST
    That made me laugh out loud.  Intertoobules-Priceless!

    Parent
    Fairly or not, (none / 0) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:33:12 PM EST
    the majority of voters believe the last thing they heard.


    Plouffe's blink (none / 0) (#112)
    by Truth Partisan on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:52:33 PM EST
    Garin wrote:
    "On the one hand, it's perfectly decent for Obama to argue that only he has the virtue to bring change to Washington and that Clinton lacks the character and the commitment to do so. On the other hand, we are somehow hitting below the belt when we say that Clinton is the candidate best able to withstand the pressures of the presidency and do what's right for the American people, while leaving the decisions about Obama's preparedness to the voters.

    Who made up those rules? And who would ever think they are fair?"

    Plouffe blinked. It was a major give to Clinton to say: "Fairly or not, the majority of voters don't trust Senator Clinton." See, he said "or not."

    We're in the primary and the majority of Dem voters DO trust Clinton. She has the highest popular vote, ever actually.

    Who says the Obama campaign hasn't changed?


    This is NOT an Open Thread (none / 0) (#116)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:53:55 PM EST
    Keep your comments on topic please.

    This Post (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:20:57 PM EST
    Was pointless.

    We already knew the Obama movement is a scum filled Clinton hating movment.

    They already think Clinton's a liar.

    What WAS the topic here, anyway?  

    Parent

    Fairness? Fuggedabowdit. (none / 0) (#145)
    by oldpro on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:11:43 PM EST
    My state's supreme court decided recently that a candidate can even lie about their opponent in ads, interviews, whatever...with no penalty whatever.

    They Pound Hillary and she pounds back (none / 0) (#146)
    by Mrwirez on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:12:37 PM EST
    At this point I see Obama as the McGovern candidate. If Obama loses Indiana along with CA,NY,NJ,OH,PA,FL,MI, and MA the good folks of the "RED" states can have him. The destruction of the Democratic party IS because of BO. I feel Hillary Clinton can not get a fair shake. Why is it against the will of the people If the Super Delgates's vote for HRC? Look at Massachusetts, HRC won by 15% yet John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, and the Governor of MA back BHO, is that NOT against the will of the people? It is all BullSh*t. Barack Obama will lose in November, the rich media types like KO just don't get it. White working guys will go to McCain, maybe for good. I hear it on the job sites. It is very destructive. I really hope the SD's hear the chatter in the back of the room. I hope Hillary wins for the sake of the Democratic party. The DNC is so .... Stupid, they still have not learned how to win. They keep putting these softy, uber-liberal candidates against the much tougher Republicans. I just don't get it. Bill Bennett said it the other night on CNN, the Republicans are 0-7 versus the Clintons. The Clintons run to the middle.

    IBEW Electrician, Pittsburgh PA

    I think (none / 0) (#148)
    by AnninCA on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:13:21 PM EST
    Obama should worry about his own polling.  

    More important, he should worry about his own voters.

    Emphasis on the (none / 0) (#151)
    by oldpro on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:16:30 PM EST
    "dead."

    WOW talk about not fair (none / 0) (#166)
    by waldenpond on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:28:08 PM EST
    Rasmussen was supposed to discuss favorability but had another section first...

    Two AA men (Armstrong Williams and Mark Lamont Hill) on to discuss Clyburn's statements about WJC.... the viciousness of the Clinton campaign, lack of grace and dignity, arrogance above the party, implode the party, making sure Obama is not electable, running for 2012  don't care if McCain wins, purposely used Osama in an ad to link the names Osama/Obama (WTF).  They agreed with Clyburn's statements and agree with each other on every wacky idea.  Did the AA vote drop off in Penn?  I know this issue comes up for a state with a substantial AA demographic, but come on!

    Fair or Not (none / 0) (#167)
    by SpinDoctor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:28:46 PM EST
    Of course it is fair.  As you accurately stated in another post, this is politics and these are politicians.  Garin and Plouffe are drawing opinions that are obviously tainted by their own partisanship.  So what?

    I do find it curious however that there has not been a single mention of Ambassador Gabriel Guerra-Mondragon's defection from Clinton to Obama.  Amb. Guerra-Mondragon was not only a President Clinton appointee, but was a Hilraiser, having brought in $500,000 for Senator Clinton.  Given the apparent importance of Puerto Rico if this campaign goes to the end, I am surprised that no one has mentioned it.

    Then again, I am not.  It is endemic to what is wrong with our political debate today.  Sites like TalkLeft and Daily Kos have become echo chambers and any sense of journalistic honesty and objectivity are lost.  Both sites fixate on little nits of the candidate they are not supporting and completely ignore comparable nits of their own candidate.  It is both maddening and saddening to see the myopia, the vitriol and rank dishonesty that has infected the blogosphere as a result of this primary season.  Neither of our candidates are all good o all bad.  They are imperfect, albeit decent people with similar visions for our country yet  we are falling into the GOP trap of villifying our opponents while losing sight of the fact that our opponents are us.

    So when are (none / 0) (#172)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:36:46 PM EST
    you going to mention something negative that happened to Obama, like you've just done about Clinton?  Or are you just a pot calling the kettle black.

    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#173)
    by SpinDoctor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:39:57 PM EST
    You just proved my point.

    Parent
    Interesting (none / 0) (#182)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:56:51 PM EST
    that you come in, trash Clinton, then proceed to call the blogs biased because of their trashing.

    When I happen to comment about your one-sided trashing of Clinton, you say "I prove your point".

    You make no sense.  I guess it's the cognitive dissonance that one has to undertake to support Obama.

    Parent

    Well I do, the polls are probably wrong but SO (none / 0) (#195)
    by Salt on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:23:29 PM EST
    what she still beat the pants off of their guy Obama so whats that say about him.

    Breaking: Obama to start running as a Democrat (none / 0) (#197)
    by dotcommodity on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:54:43 PM EST
    "He is going to be articulating policies and ideas that Democrats believe in."
    Finally coming after us Hillary voters! Good for him/never too late.

    WHHW-What had happened was... (none / 0) (#202)
    by Regency on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:50:59 AM EST
    "Sorry, false alarm."

    Parent
    Breaking: Obama to start running as a Democrat (none / 0) (#198)
    by dotcommodity on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:55:03 PM EST
    "He is going to be articulating policies and ideas that Democrats believe in."
    Finally coming after us Hillary voters! Good for him/never too late.