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Hillary's Indiana Ad Criticizes Obama on Gas Tax

Hillary Clinton has released a new ad in Indiana criticizing Barack Obama for opposing the suspension of the gas tax.

Hillary's plan: Use the windfall profits of the oil companies to pay to suspend the gas tax this summer. Barack Obama says "No."

People are hurting, it's time for a President who's ready to take action now.

< Hillary's Interview With the Indianapolis Star | Late Night: Gas Guzzlers >
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    Pandering... (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by white n az on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:05:00 PM EST
    good for her

    ;-)

    Yup (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Trickster on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:13:36 AM EST
    And liable to net her the nomination.

    Us latte-sippin' internet political geeks are always amazed by the impact of gas prices politically.  Hillary gets it.

    The cool thing is that, while pretty much every economist will tell you that gas taxes need to be raised, not lowered, this is not in fact a terribly bad economic move and may in fact be a good one.

    That's because demand for gas is very inelastic in the short term and only shows elasticity in the long run (when people have had time to adjust by, e.g., buying Priuses or moving to somewhere that won't require a long drive to work).  The opposite is just as true--people don't quickly start driving more just because is slightly less heinously expensive.

    So a short-term reduction in the price of gas is not really going to stimulate fuel demand in any significant way.  And in fact, it's an excellent short-term economic stimulus because not only does 100% of the money goes straight into the type of consumption that stimulates further economic activity.

    Decent policy, election-winning politics.

    Parent

    Just sleight of hand (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by rilkefan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:30:50 AM EST
    - won't reduce the price of gas - isn't good policy.  The thing about Clinton I've liked is her wonkishness - if a transparent pander wins her the nomination, that'll be sad and a bad precedent.

    Parent
    She is not just pushing (none / 0) (#145)
    by BernieO on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:16:58 AM EST
    a reduction in the gas tax, she is also pushing to stop adding to the strategic oil reserves, and releasing some to add to supply so it may well reduce or at least stabilize the price. And it is good politics because McCain's proposal appeals to many who do not realize it cuts into highway funds, something the public strongly supports. Hillary's windfall tax also appeals, and it highlights the fiscal irresponsibility of McCain's position while dinging the hated oil companies.

    By the way, she also said (I was at her rally in Charlotte on Monday) that there is evidence that there has been manipulation of the oil market similar to what Enron did to California's energy market and she is calling for an investigation. That would be a great idea as well as good political theatre.

    If you need more evidence that Clinton's idea is a good one, Tom Friedman doesn't like it and you know what a good judge he is. Just joking, I think.

    Parent

    If she had only restricted funding it by (none / 0) (#168)
    by dotcommodity on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:07:26 AM EST
    just stopping the overload to the Strategic Reserve, I would be fine with it as a temporary measure, along with assuming she got in to the WH and could instigaste her longterm clean energy policy.

    But.

    She didn't.

    She includes repealing the windfall profits tax to fund it. Now we know the Dems have all been trying to get that repeal passed all through 2007. At least 5 bills. Its not so easy.

    As such, this was a horrible move, and really cuts into her credibility as the greenest candidate. And it weakens her to allow cutting taxes be any part of her plan.

    Parent

    yes, this is what I have been saying. (none / 0) (#169)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:07:27 AM EST
    Plus, the Democrats would be on the good side particularly if Bush does veto (which he most likely would because of the windfall tax proposal).

    Parent
    Darn yeah.... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:07:18 PM EST
    I changed my mind, she offers a way to pay for it.  What has McCain or the wunder kid Obama done?  nothing.  

    Is that way possible this summer... (3.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Addison on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:09:27 PM EST
    ...with Bush as president? Bush isn't going to veto a tax on oil companies?

    No. It's pie in the sky. And still a pander.

    Parent

    Time for the Dem leadership (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:20:21 PM EST
    and Obama to show some backbone.

    Parent
    FIrst of all (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by BernieO on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:22:52 AM EST
    there is nothing wrong with pushing for something just because it may not pass. That is what is wrong with the Democrats. This is an election season and the gas prices are fueling inflation so there is a chance that the Republicans would go along with this if only to help themselves in the fall. Because Hillary also includes easing the supply crunch through releasing some of our stragegic oil supplies, it may actually work. It should take some of the pressure out of the futures market which is responsible for a lot of drive up of the prices. Since gas prices are behind a lot of the food price increase it should also slow that down.
    This is smart policy and politics.

    Parent
    global warming (none / 0) (#194)
    by diogenes on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:15:27 PM EST
    I thought global warming was a problem.  Reducing gas prices to increase demand will help this?  Maybe if she supported a permanent suspension of gas taxes to take effect January 21, 2009, this might help a little, but even then if demand goes up due to lower prices it'll be a wash anyway.
    Pander bear and triangulation-the Clinton way.

    Parent
    Yes. There is no way we will (none / 0) (#151)
    by lilybart on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:47:28 AM EST
    get a windfall profits tax passed anytime soon, and maybe never.

    I am not sure how you quantify "too much profit" in a capitalist system.

    What needs to happen is an elimination of tax breaks and subsidies, since clearly, they do not need them. And maybe penalties for extracting energy in America, but offshoring your profits to avoid taxes. THAT should be stopped.

    Otherwise, this gas tax holiday is pure pander.

    Parent

    lilybart, too much profit means (none / 0) (#165)
    by lookoverthere on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:39:14 AM EST
    you're making money and I'm not. Heh.

    Yep, it's pander, but I have to tell ya, our food bank has sent out another call for donations ahead of schedule. People (mostly single moms) are already having to choose gas over groceries and are going to the food bank to make up the difference.

    As summer comes, a lot of those single moms are going to have to hire babysitters or get daycare for their kids.

    I know quite a few truck drivers or people who hire out as heavy equipment operators are having a hard time paying for fuel as well. Our local farms...well, we're losing our family farms, like a lot of places.

    This ain't no longer term answer, but a gas tax holiday may ease the burden for some for a bit.

    Parent

    No it won't. (none / 0) (#167)
    by lilybart on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:52:50 AM EST
    I get that people are hurting but this gas tax will not result in lower prices for more than a few days until the summer demand drives prices up again.

    Save 18cents by cutting out processed junk food, like the gallon of Coke people drink.

    There is no reputable economist who thinks this is any kind of good idea.

    Parent

    lilybart, you think the people I'm talking about (none / 0) (#185)
    by lookoverthere on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:04:48 PM EST
    buy Coke?

    Are you kidding?

    They go to the local liquidation warehouse to buy dented cans and busted boxes of whatever they can get their hands on. They don't sell milk and fresh fruit and vegetables at these places. And the local farmers' markets don't sell fresh fruit and veg cheap, either.

    I agree with you: a tax holiday is not a long-term solution. But it's something and right now some people need a little help over the summer.

    Parent

    But Hillary says.... (none / 0) (#190)
    by lilybart on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    Hillary has endorsed it so don't try to talk sense to anyone here!

    Parent
    No, it is showing that the Dems get it! (none / 0) (#171)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:11:57 AM EST
    If this doesn't happen because of a Bush veto and no override due to Repubs intransigence, then the Dems win.  This is a big issue to Americans - the Repubs either are for us or agin us on this and if agin us, then, watch out in November.

    This is good politics and good short term policy.  A gas holiday paid for by the oil companies and a stimulus to the economy is good.  Of course, if Clinton didn't also have medium and long term plans, I would be against this.  But, she does.

    Parent

    just like the prez, and he blamed congress (none / 0) (#130)
    by thereyougo on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:22:52 AM EST
    no solutions, just blame. Guess he's still mad at Nancy for telling him he can't have his trade pact with Columbia before he fixes  the American people's economic problem.

    Parent
    just like the prez, and he blamed congress (none / 0) (#131)
    by thereyougo on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:23:24 AM EST
    no solutions, just blame. Guess he's still mad at Nancy for telling him he can't have his trade pact with Columbia before he fixes  the American people's economic problem.

    Parent
    You go girl! (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by bjorn on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:08:41 PM EST
    Rachel Maddow said this was negative campaigning. How old is she?  Where has she been?  

    How Is This Negative Campaigning? (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:11:57 PM EST
    She was going on and on about negative campaigning on one of the many shows you see her on now, and the veterans told her how tame this campaign has been, but that she should be more worried about what the GOP is going to do to the dem candidate.  If it is obama, he will completely fall apart and probably faint.

    Parent
    LOL (3.00 / 2) (#142)
    by kempis on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:18:23 AM EST
    she should be more worried about what the GOP is going to do to the dem candidate.  If it is obama, he will completely fall apart and probably faint.

    For some reason, that made me laugh until I cried....Ohpleaseohplease don't let it be him.

    I just now realized why I want Hillary in the driver's seat of this country: I really do trust her wonkish little head to make the right decisions, and  if she's driving, I can relax for a change.

    For 8 years I've white-knuckled my way through one George W. Bush disaster after another. I'd like someone COMPETENT in charge, please.

    If Hillary's pandering (and she is), it's clear that this is a nice little paid-for pander that won't ruin the country and will provide some relief not only in pocketbooks but in slowing inflation. I'm truly concerned about how working people with families are making it.

    If it's paid-for, helps people, doesn't help the oil companies, and helps get her elected, I'm cool with it. I just want to be able to sit in the backseat and read a book or look out the window for the next 8 years while someone competent drives the car.

    Parent

    Paid for pandering (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by BernieO on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:29:56 AM EST
    I like that.

    In addition to Hillary having the "wonkishness" (why is wonk a negative word?) she has demonstrated that beyond a shadow of a doubt she has the psychological strength to hold up under pressure.

    While everyone in the media seems to be back to praising Obama and his response to Wright, I am struck by how worn out he looks and and hesitant he sounds. Pundits have been talking about his show of emotion. If that is true, the guy must not have any. He was flat and looked weak to me.

    If he is faltering under this kind of pressure he is in no way ready for the much worse pressures of the presidency. I doubt that he has ever faced much adversity in his life. It seems he has always done well and been well liked.

    Parent

    I agree that Obama looked tentative (none / 0) (#150)
    by kempis on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:45:42 AM EST
    and not "passionate" yesterday. In fact, I almost actually fell asleep during one long and painful pause. And there were many as he floundered a bit. I've seen other Obama press conferences where he's done the exact same thing, so it wasn't that he was rattled by emotion; he was just rattled, period. He is not a good extemporaneous speaker.

    I sympathize with him because I tend to be halting in speech, too, as I look for the right words and carefully consider "do I really want to say that?"

    Hillary, on the other hand, speaks fluently in paragraphs, beautifully organized, supported and footnoted. He may be inspiring with a prepared speech to deliver, but Hillary is an awesome off-the-cuff communicator.  That, of course, gets no press.

    Parent

    I'm convinced... (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by reynwrap582 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:14:58 AM EST
    Hillary could release an ad praising Obama and asking everyone to vote for him instead, and Rachel Maddow would still call it a negative ad, claiming the voice-over tone was sarcastic.

    Parent
    gen Xer. like Kos (none / 0) (#132)
    by thereyougo on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:24:55 AM EST
    I just returned from a conference in (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by hairspray on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:10:34 PM EST
    San Francisco sponsored by an alternative energy startup on petroalgae as a biodiesel fuel for cars.  There were a number of foreign vistors there who talked about global warming and alternative fuel.  They took on Hillary over this saying that she was sending a message to Europe that she was not serious about letting markets rise to stimulate consumption.  I reminded the Dane I was speaking to that this was temporary and that she had a good plan but he felt Barack obama's response was better. I reminded him Barack was for nuclear energy and coal but he seemed more concerned about JHRC;s tax holiday.

    You should have called me... (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:13:05 PM EST
    I tell you the world is filled with morons.  It's not an exclusive of the US.  Look at Germany's policy on biodiesel, huh, now they have to change it cause of the implications.  All the stuff Obama supports.  

    Parent
    no I am not... (5.00 / 9) (#19)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:22:39 PM EST
    I am an old style moron.  A predictable old culture war moron.  Not a creative class, high information, meritocrat who votes based on how on how a candidate makes me feel, cause my meds are nor working moron.  Not a waiting for the plutocrats and so called intelligentsia to tell my how to think, kind of moron.  

    Parent
    I think I just (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by BrandingIron on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:28:37 PM EST

    fell in love with someone other than HRC.

    ;D

    Parent

    I'm more worded that Obama will (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by MarkL on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:18:43 PM EST
    be President Cornanol.

    Parent
    American Left has gone off (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:14:31 PM EST
    the deep end.  Their is a chasm that needs to be discussed.  The flighty impractical lefties and the people who get public policy and social justice.  

    I think you mean "you're" (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by angie on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:32:42 PM EST
    and it would behove you to follow your own advice:

    this post was about.....no not delfelection, what was the title...oh thats right 'Hillary's Indiana Ad Criticizes Obama on Gas Tax'

    Let's keep it on topic.


    Parent

    those are you're own words (none / 0) (#48)
    by angie on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:37:44 PM EST
    in a reply you made to Edgar08. You tell me what that means.

    Parent
    Think you mean "behoove" n/t (none / 0) (#127)
    by rilkefan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:05:08 AM EST
    It's a very convenient status... (1.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Addison on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:23:03 PM EST
    ...self-assigned, of course. But why bother with self-reflection when you know so much about social justice?

    Parent
    Stop the insults (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:31:25 PM EST
    Addison. You don't have to reply to every comment you disagree with. If you have something substantive to say, fine, otherwise, just scroll on by.

    Parent
    Okay. (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Addison on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:35:10 PM EST
    I think you're missing a chance to enforce that principle evenly. But it's your site. So I'll obviously stop.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:20:35 PM EST
    If Krugman's right about this kind of being pointless, he's right about the Health Care assessments as well, right?

    Okay newdeal (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Andy08 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:27:35 PM EST
    tell us about Obama's brilliant idea to help the people that are hurting badly now and will be for a
    while.

    Parent
    you made your point (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:41:43 PM EST
    please move on. Or you and edger can take it to e-mail.

    Parent
    Good ad, stupid idea (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:23:49 PM EST


    Agreed (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by phat on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:28:23 PM EST
    This is probably the one thing about Clinton's policy proposals during this campaign that bothers me the most.

    Parent
    I love and respect Krugman (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:24:50 PM EST
    so, I don't have to agree with him on everything and  I will not put him down if I don't agree with him on this point, like the creative class has done.  It's called being  a grown up.  

    If I were a typical consumer (5.00 / 9) (#29)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:28:16 PM EST
    and one who doesn't know from oil, energy or economics because I get up, get the kids ready for school, go to work, come home, make dinner, clean up, do homework and go to bed, I'd want a suspension of the gas tax so I can pay less at the pump -- even for the summer. The green I'd be most concerned with right now is that of the currency -- and lack of it -- in my wallet.

    I'd also be concerned that it's not just gas, it's the cost of groceries. I might even realize that the price of everything is going to go up because everything is flown, shipped or driven from one point to another these days and sellers' and transporters' fuel costs are going up which will be passed on to consumers.

    I'd probably be thinking like Scarlett O'Hara: I'll worry about the planet tomorrow, today it's about me. I'd vote for the candidate who promises me some relief now.

    The fact that truckers would get a holiday (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by phat on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:29:45 PM EST
    does sort of mitigate part of this for me. Without the windfall tax, I certainly wouldn't support it, though.

    It's still problematic.

    Parent

    To be honest, too (none / 0) (#55)
    by phat on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:41:20 PM EST
    I've been a proponent of a windfall profit tax for a long time, anyway.

    Parent
    You're probably right (none / 0) (#40)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:31:57 PM EST
    But I think that's the essence of "bad pandering."

    It's just bad policy.

    Heck, we could declare a federal tax holiday  for the summer months too: I'm sure that would be really popular.

    Parent

    the thing is, I think the tax holiday (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by angie on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:53:34 PM EST
    will pass (and no, Bush isn't going to veto it). It isn't a coincidence that McCain is the one introducing the bill during an election year where the Dems should easily win back the WH after W's terrible performance -- this was a move to do a little bit of nothing for the voters that they will be grateful for, so the GOP can turn around and say "Who saved you $ this summer on gas? Vote for McCain." So, if it is going to pass anyway, why not use it to your advantage and make the oil companies make up the difference? This is what a good politician does -- beats the other guy at this own game.

    Parent
    let them pass it (none / 0) (#76)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:58:33 PM EST
    because what you are forgetting is he WON'T save them money, thats the problem after they do it people will notice that the gas prices will start going back up again.

    and then those who voted for this will get to explain why a gas tax holiday during the summer is sorta like giving tax cuts during huge spending.

    I want to see how McCain defends  higher prices after his holiday then before. not to mention the $10 billion loss he just cost to the highway funds for what would now seem was for no good reason at all

    Parent

    I hope Bush vetoes it if they pass it (none / 0) (#82)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:03:33 AM EST
    Who would ever have thought that a Republican would protect a tax?

    Parent
    and if you were a typical (none / 0) (#41)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:32:13 PM EST
    consumer you would know nothing about economics and expect your elected leaders not to pass stupid stuff hoping you don't know better and would only end up hurting not helping you.

    you wouldn't think saving $25 bucks over the ENTIRE summer worth taxpayers now having to foot a $10 billion short fall, but hey not like we have to worry about bridges or highways, they are completely sound and don't need funding for a few years while Hillary gets that windfall tax passed by congress

    Parent

    Gas in Mt Kisco Ny is $4.49-$4.69 (none / 0) (#120)
    by nycstray on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:43:10 AM EST
    as of tonight. I think they said it was $4.09 for reg self serve, but this was the pump price they showed, so it's prob full serve.

    They talked about a gas tax break. Not just the fed, but also city and state in NY. That would save folks $.64 a gallon. Let's say self serve reg gas hits 4.50, that's a $12.80 savings on a 20gal tank if I did my math right. Now the environmentalist they had on said it was like giving food to a glutton, but methinks he's missing the reality of many family's finances. I really doubt the average family is going to drive more. The gas will still be over $3.80 a gallon and rising! Also, most of us have higher electric bills in the summer and food prices are rising pretty darn fast too.

    The vacation upside is, more families will be camping in their regional parks for vacations this year. As a person who grew up having many such vacations, I'd say that's a good thing for American families and the parks  :)

    Parent

    it would really help (none / 0) (#133)
    by bigbay on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:44:13 AM EST
    truckers and businesses, more than individuals at their gas tank.

    Parent
    total agreement there (none / 0) (#135)
    by nycstray on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 02:14:42 AM EST
    but still, these days, pennies are adding up quick so many families may just not feel as stressed. Those that have no choice but to drive will be fine with the small but there break. When they say egg prices are up 30%, not all that much in dollars, but add in milk, grains etc. I think most folks will take any break.

    For someone who has to drive a lot, it may be like changing their light bulbs. That saved  me about 50 bucks a month, which quickly was absorbed by other price increases. Heh, kinda like treading water.

    My niece lives paycheck to paycheck, if she can catch even a small break on something while something else is rising, I hope she gets it. Even if it is just for the summer months. And if big oil pays for it, more the better, imo ;)

    Parent

    Agree, that is why it is great politics.. (none / 0) (#175)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:20:55 AM EST
    Clinton also pays with taking the money from the oil companies - more great politics.  But, it is also good policy because people, businesses and governments will have some breathing room to switch over to more efficient transportation, food and economic methods and models.  She has a comprehensive energy plan that also emphasizes jobs.  
    I am and Environmental Planner and I am ecstatic about how she is using great politics with great policy.

    Parent
    Good Policy, I don't think so (none / 0) (#176)
    by CST on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:24:24 AM EST
    "But, it is also good policy because people, businesses and governments will have some breathing room to switch over to more efficient transportation, food and economic methods and models."

    No, it will encourage people NOT to switch over by reducing the cost of keeping the status quo.  The only way we will get full commercial reform is if its the economically appropriate action.

    Parent

    Love the ad, pitch perfect. (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by eleanora on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:33:51 PM EST
    If this Geoff Gerin is driving her media buys, he's doing an excellent job lately. I loved the "people like me" commercial too.

    I'm confused by people criticizing Hillary for taking this position, since McCain's Gas Tax Holiday Amendment should pass the House and Senate easily in an election year. I want a President who can count noses and see where an issue is going and then steal that issue right out from under the Republicans' noses. She's working so hard to change the conversation, "Okay, that's a short term help--now how do we pay for it and what's the long term solution?" Standing on principle is great, but people listen to you more if they feel that you're trying to help them some.

    And working families could sure use any kind of a break that's out there. We worked awfully hard to get Dems a majority in 2006, haven't seen any practical good out of it so far.

    yep, great politics by Clinton. (none / 0) (#177)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:26:51 AM EST
    Gas Tax (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:39:44 PM EST
    Is still regressive right?

    Just making sure.

    Yeah, (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:40:56 PM EST
    but unless you regulate what the oil companies can charge, either the states will collect it or the oil companies will through "demand" charges.

    Parent
    Well yeah (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:41:32 PM EST
    It is then.


    Parent
    You're chattering n/t (none / 0) (#128)
    by rilkefan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:10:16 AM EST
    You're whining (none / 0) (#136)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 02:35:57 AM EST
    About people chattering.


    Parent
    Oh. (none / 0) (#137)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 02:40:10 AM EST
    And I finally looked it up.

    I don't qualify.


    Parent

    Basic economics... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:48:17 PM EST
    ... also says increasing the minimum wage should increase unemployment. That seems not to happen.

    To my liberal elitist mind, having gas cost a lot has its benefits. And economic theory dictates that the price of gasoline won't drop by very much. So my initial belief is that this is a bad idea.

    However, Clinton's plan seems harmless to me. Since it's paid for, the worst it does is nothing. (Or it's "pointless", as Krugman says.) And who knows? Maybe it will have an effect on prices.

    How about we make a deal? I'll agree with Krugman on this one if Obama supporters agree with him on health care?

    It isn't paid for. (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Addison on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:56:03 PM EST
    There is no windfall tax on Big Oil yet. And there won't be at least until George W. Bush leaves office. This would (or will, I guess it might pass?) deprive our transportation infrastructure of much needed funds.

    Something that hasn't been mentioned yet (and why I'm posting this comment) is that those road, bridge, tunnel, and other federal transportation projects employ a lot of people to boot, and they'd be out of work. Though, admittedly this could be down the line after a series of "emergency" funding bandaid bills that punted transportation bankruptcy down the road. And so the unemployed workers might be 1-2 years from now instead of this summer. But I guess someone would have to work the toll booths when the private sector had to take over our interstates.

    In short, Hillary's plan is good. Not great, but pretty good. As a total package. But she's not president yet, so she can't institute it. And most people feel it can't be instituted piecemeal, especially by implementing the revenue losses first.

    Parent

    That's why the Dems need to pass as an entire.. (none / 0) (#178)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:29:32 AM EST
    package.  Put the onus on Bush and Repubs to veto and uphold the veto.  Dems look good either way.  As I have said many times, great politics and good policy.

    Parent
    Increasing gas cost (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:03:26 AM EST
    will mean the final death knell for struggling family farms. No kidding, The End.  The farmers where I live are barely hanging on and more and more of them are giving up and selling their dairy herds (for next to nothing) every day.

    Please, PLEASE remember that this country is more than suburbs, where people can choose whether to drive their SUVs to work or take public transportation.

    Where I live, the nearest general store where you can get basic groceries (at high prices) is 4 miles away.  The nearest hardware store is 10.  The nearest supermarket is 20.  I'm at a point where I'm seriously considering getting a horse to take me those 4 miles and back to the general store.

    Parent

    Rural Americans (none / 0) (#93)
    by eleanora on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:13:20 AM EST
    are being hard hit by this. I live in Montana and some people drive 30-45 minutes just to find a place to buy gas. By the time they get to town, get groceries, fill up, and get back home, they're tired out, broke, and p*ssed off at being abandoned by everyone who was supposed to look out for them. Congress and Bush have given all sorts of tax relief to the oil companies without anyone making a fuss, how about a little help for American citizens?

    Parent
    You said it (none / 0) (#160)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:56:12 AM EST
    And the Catch-22 is that if you can only get up to town once a week or less, you have to have a large vehicle, SUV or pickup, with crummy gas mileage in order to haul all that stuff, especially if you have a family.

    There simply is no give in rural demand for gasoline.  With these kinds of distances, nobody drives any more miles than they absolutely have to.

    Parent

    Get a couple of Mt Dogs and a cart ;) (none / 0) (#122)
    by nycstray on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:54:58 AM EST
    they were born to cart. I'm thinking about getting a wagon set up for my Dal to haul produce and poultry back from my CSA on Saturdays. When I move back to CA in the next year or so, I'm planning on living more rural, and transportation is something I'm thinking about. I've never been a driver, so I figure work out alternatives before hand so I don't get stuck depending on it.

    I have to wonder if our farmers figured in the higher gas costs when they did this years pricing. I was shocked to see where the prices were going tonight. I may just add a donation when I send in my final payment.

    Parent

    well, I can drive a horse and cart (none / 0) (#170)
    by lookoverthere on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:07:51 AM EST
    Yes, I really can. Just a one-up hitch. It's not hard, but caring for your horse and gear is expensive and takes a lot of time. And driving a cart on a road is not safe, especially out here. Not safe for bikes, either.

    We live 6 miles from the nearest gas station and bundle errands to make as few trips as possible. Luckily, we both work at home. Unlike most of our neighbors.

    Family farms here are barely hanging on, save for the wealthy people who keep horse raising and training facilities. Interestingly, members of one local farming family has hung onto their dairy farms by raising horses (Friesians, expensive breed), selling products at farmers markets, doing a fall hayrides and pumpkin patches with their horses, and working with the county and state to develop a methane-digester de-centralized energy production facility on their land.

    Even with all that affort, though, fuel prices could kill 'em since it affects the price of everything for their animals and adds to cost of every product they're trying to sell. And they're the exception among the local farms as they're considered to be prospering.

    Parent

    Oil prices (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Salo on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:09:12 AM EST
    will magically decrease in October.  Jut in time for Bush to take credit.

    It's magic. Really the guy takes lead and turns it into Gold.

    Parent

    except for its NOT paid for (none / 0) (#67)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:51:41 PM EST
    they want the gas holiday for this summer in only 2 months from now, so unless Hillary is getting Bush (a lame duck president) to sign that bill taxing windfall profits to the big oil company friends of his.

    it won't be paid for.

    Parent

    Well... (none / 0) (#104)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:24:52 AM EST
    ... under Hillary's plan it is paid for. She'd vote for a bill that combined a windfall tax profit with a gas tax holiday. You can't accuse her of supporting the tax holiday by itself.

    Parent
    the Tax Holiday (none / 0) (#106)
    by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:26:28 AM EST
    would go into effect in less then a month, will she have her windfall passed by then?

    if not if the vote for the holiday THIS summer comes up, will she vote yes or no on it? (assume no windfall because Bush isn't going to sign it)

    Parent

    She said... (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:32:54 AM EST
    she would not do one without the other.

    Parent
    But she will (none / 0) (#153)
    by lilybart on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:51:48 AM EST
    She will vote for it without the windfall tax because that is how you complete the pander.

    Parent
    Here Let's try this (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:57:20 PM EST
    Let's pretend a gas tax didn't exist and Republicans were proposing a gas tax, who here would be supporting it?

    I just want to see where people stand on this from an ideological standpoint.


    So you're hypothetical (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:59:40 AM EST
    involves a situation where the REPUBLICANS are advocating for higher taxes and the Democrats are opposing them?  

    Here's a hypothetical.  Let's say the Republicans propose a gay marriage amendment.  Would you still support it?  

    This is a classic GOP pander.  "We'll lower taxes.  Sure you won't actually notice it and it will likely cause all sorts of other problems.  But every little bit helps".  They would then proceed to fight tooth and nail against ever reinstating that tax again.

    The gas tax is one of the most easily justifiable taxes the government has.  Yet Hillary the Democrat wishes to eliminate it.  

    This may work politically, since everyone loves lower taxes, but I am simply amazed to see putative Democrats supporting this simply because it helps their candidate.

    Parent

    depends what is the tax for? (none / 0) (#80)
    by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:03:17 AM EST
    I live in MN we just PASSED a gas tax, you know what we are going to use it for?

    highway and infrastructure repair, we don't need anymore bridges falling.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#86)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:07:58 AM EST
    But what if you had a progressive state legislature that imposed a progressive tax to rebuild infrastructure, instead of a regressive tax that will obviously hurt poor people more than rich people.


    Parent
    thats nice (none / 0) (#91)
    by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:12:28 AM EST
    but once again we are talking about 1 month from now, they want to give a tax holiday in a month.

    sticking to the here and now, NO a gas holiday next month is NOT a good idea

    YOU don't benefit by saving $25 dollars, not even in the short run because that $25 is spread out over 3 months, so unless you save that $0.184 each time you buy gas you won't even notice the savings.

    Parent

    This is not Clinton's plan. (none / 0) (#179)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:35:45 AM EST
    Please stop implying that the gas tax holiday only is her plan.  If the Dems don't pass both at the same time, it is their fault, not hers.  If she votes for the gas tax  holiday while still in the race, I can forgive her (though I won't like it).  

    Parent
    Ideology is a terrible way to make decisions... (none / 0) (#84)
    by Addison on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:06:51 AM EST
    ...the gas tax is being kept because of what it funds, and the lack of an alternative right now (obviously with more time to plan the federal gov't could fund the transportation budget with other money from other sources).

    If it didn't exist it would be implemented only if those things -- roads, bridges, etc. -- were not being funded and couldn't be funded some other way.

    It's not about ideology it's about infrastructure.

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#87)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:09:08 AM EST
    So if you were in a position to impose a set of taxes that would pay for infrastructure, a gas tax is a good one?

    Parent
    I said if it were the ONLY one... (none / 0) (#97)
    by Addison on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:17:40 AM EST
    ...but I'll go ahead and engage you on your question  anyway.

    Well, it's a use tax, and that's a good part about it. It taxes the use of the roads which it helps maintain. That's sensical. To the extent that the money went to public transportation and not bridges to nowhere, that would somewhat negate the flat regressiveness of the tax, which is the most obvious downside. I think that I'd institute gas stamps of some sort analogous to food stamps (need based) or the EIC (the more you work the more you get, up to a point).

    So it wouldn't be my absolute last choice, as long as certain measures were taken to counteract the regressiveness.

    But I probably wouldn't choose it first, no.

    Parent

    Yes. (none / 0) (#144)
    by alsace on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:49:33 AM EST
    I voted for John Anderson in 1980 largely because of his proposed 50 cent gas tax.  Price is the only way to moderate demand, and I prefer the revenues go to filling potholes and fixing bridges rather than bonuses for oil company CEOs.  

    Parent
    Good and thoughtful question. (none / 0) (#180)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:40:49 AM EST
    My answer, no.  To me it is like a tax on food.  Therefore, other types of taxes should be used to pay for the infrastructure.  Addison had some interesting ideas.  

    I also think that this needs to be changed because the fuel type and transportation modes going to change.  So, Clinton I am sure is looking at other funding mechanisms besides the ones she has already outlined.

    Parent

    terrific commercial` (4.83 / 6) (#3)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:08:25 PM EST
    I think it will be very effective.  I don't care what Krugman says, something has to be done to give people a break right now.  More important than that,   Clinton understands that people want to hear about real action, not future promises.

    It's Krugman's job to be rational (5.00 / 6) (#43)
    by dianem on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:33:21 PM EST
    It's Clinton's job to try to get elected. Both are doing what is necessary to get the job done.

    Parent
    But Clinton is being rational. (none / 0) (#181)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:43:03 AM EST
    She is showing how to pay for this proposal, and I believe, laying the ground work to pay for infrastructure in other ways and not with the regressive gas tax.

    Parent
    Is that Rendell? (none / 0) (#10)
    by BarnBabe on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:15:49 PM EST
    Kinda sounded like him.

    beautiful ad (none / 0) (#13)
    by boredmpa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:18:48 PM EST
    lets her mention the obvious foreclosure freeze (that was addressing serious market problems), contrast it with obama, and tie it into the more panderlicious gax tax suspension.

    oh, and it lets her play chicken with McCain (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by boredmpa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:23:27 PM EST
    Ya know, I was worried about the second part of this before (the tying it to profits...and I still think it's trouble from a policy perspective), but now it's going to hit McCain if bush vetoes it or there isn't enough bi-partisan support for the oil company tax aspect.  

    It'll make for some great commercials about record oil company revenues and Big Companies against the little guy.

    Parent

    this is such a bad idea (none / 0) (#25)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:26:09 PM EST
    anyone with basic supply and demand understandings know this is just basic pandering.

    if they lower the tax, demand will increase, but without an actual increase in supply, the prices will only go back up, causing more profits for the oil companies, and a budget short fall for the government, meaning that the taxpayers will foot the bill to pay for funds to the highway funds that were taken.

    so we don't decrease prices, give oil companies MORE profits, and taxpayers get a $10 billion shortfall to pay for.

    but hey no problem Hillary promises that in a year she can pass a windfall tax on the oil companies to pay for it! (unless someone actually wants me to believe she will get it past Bush this year)

    Too erudite (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:38:56 PM EST
    How would you explain it to the average voter without a degree in economics? I think they can understand a plan to pay less for the summer, use that time to budget better and save some money so when it goes back up in the fall they are better prepared, but what do they care about oil companies making money in the abstract?

    Parent
    Here's what I would say (none / 0) (#58)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:42:47 PM EST
    The oil companies will just use this as an excuse to raise their prices.

    Parent
    That's been a claim made. (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by phat on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:46:00 PM EST
    They certainly could.

    Demand would likely go up if the price dropped, thus allowing the oil companies to ask for a higher price.

    I would guess, though, that a bill could include some limit to their ability to raise the price.

    Raising the price, at this point, for the oil companies seems to be all profit for them. Cap it and drop the tax?

    It's just an idea.

    Parent

    And such a predicatible one. (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by sweetthings on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:50:18 PM EST
    This is, of course the problem with going down this road.

    First, you remove the tax, because people are hurting. But that doesn't actually lower the price any, (at least not for more than a few days) because the market has to adjust the prices upwards to prevent shortages. So now, you have no money for roads, and people are still hurting. So come the calls for either subsidies, or caps. And people are hurting, right? So why not?

    And then things get really messed up.

    There are lots of things the free market doesn't really do very well. Health care, for example. But one thing it does very, VERY well is distribute fungible goods at the lowest possible cost.

    Let it work.

    Parent

    Well, if you go down that road (none / 0) (#63)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:49:04 PM EST
    the government might as well just nationalize the oil industry. I don't think that's such a good idea.

    Parent
    Well... (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by phat on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:58:47 PM EST
    Putting a cap on price increases is not nationalizing the industry. I believe HI limits price increases by statute. If this is an emergency, and it certainly could be, I trust that expecting the oil industry to pitch in to solve the problem isn't unreasonable.

    Granted, this is based on big ifs. If their increases are unreasonable profit (whatever that may mean) than it's not an unreasonable demand.

    The tax holiday idea is really not a good idea, though. It's certainly interesting, considering the current situation, though. I didn't like it when McCain proposed it. Adding a windfall profit tax made me consider it.

    Parent

    Now that I think about it (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by phat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:14:51 AM EST
    Is adding the windfall profit tax to the proposal an attempt to ad a de facto cap to price increases?

    Duh...

    That should have occurred to me before.

    So, if you devise the windfall profit tax to discourage profits that wouldn't have been taken before the tax holiday and any new demands, is that a problem?

    Granted, the chain of distribution is not all oil company profit. You have retailers, refineries and such, between Mobile and the consumer. I don't know that you could work out a good formula to mitigate the problems.

    On balance, I don't know that I like this proposal, still.

    It might be doable, though.

    Parent

    Price caps = Shortages (none / 0) (#100)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:21:58 AM EST
    and are a recipe for gas lines. BAD IDEA.

    Parent
    I'm not saying price cap, I guess (none / 0) (#105)
    by phat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:25:34 AM EST
    I'm saying cap on raise in price.

    That may be the same thing.

    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#107)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:27:33 AM EST
    Oil companies will divert gas to Canada or reduce production.

    Price caps don't work unless the government controls supply.

    Parent

    But (none / 0) (#114)
    by phat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:33:08 AM EST
    Is it possible to index price increases to "estimated pre-holiday" profit taking and base a cap on that?

    The only reason why I'm considering these ideas is because I do suspect that gas prices could get insanely out of hand in the next few months and any mitigation of that problem could likely be a good thing.

    Parent

    Hmm, my back of the envelope plan (none / 0) (#117)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:39:33 AM EST
    1. Flood the market with oil from the strategic reserve in the short term.

    2. Find an easy and cheap way to get the guzzlers off the road. Deficit spend of necessary. (This would have to be a staged process--over a few years, probably).

    3. Jack up the CAFE standards so that even europe will stand in awe.

    I'm sure there's other stuff you could do in the short term. The government could even heavily subsidize the price of gas like China and Iran do, but that seems like especially bad policy if our goal is to reduce dependence on oil.

    Parent
    Jimmy Carter? (none / 0) (#126)
    by phat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:04:34 AM EST
    Is that you?

    Parent
    To answer your question... (none / 0) (#103)
    by sweetthings on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:24:24 AM EST
    No. The windfall profit tax is an attempt to render this policy pointless, instead of outright harmful, to quote Krugman. Unfortunately, that attempt will almost certainly fail.

    I'm willing to concede that this may be very good politics. It's always nice to tell people what they want to hear, and if we assume that Americans don't understand economics, it should be easy enough to spin the negative effects as somebody else's fault when the time comes. But I'm afraid there is absolutely no way to spin it as good policy.

    Parent

    The "raising demand" argument (none / 0) (#68)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:52:53 PM EST
    Is such a frustrating thing to contend with, I think Jeralyn's point is the same one I've tried to make.

    Everyone discusses this as if the only people impacted are people who are using too much gas.

    Yeah.  Some people will be "annoyed" and even a few may even change their behavior slightly.

    But we're conceding now, as progressives, that acomplishing a conservation mindset at one end of the economic spectrum is more important than what's happening at the other end of the economic spectrum.


    Parent

    Sweetthings has it right (none / 0) (#79)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:01:51 AM EST
    One option, of course, is to flood the market with gas from the strategic oil reserve. I'm not even sure if that would do the trick, though, given the worldwide demand.

    Parent
    Yet another (none / 0) (#83)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:06:15 AM EST
    Short term solution.

    There's too much noise in this discussion anyway.

    If the argument is that Clinton's proposal will have no impact on the actual price of gas, then the idea that it will increase demand should be tossed out the window anyway.


    Parent

    That doesn't make any sense (none / 0) (#85)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:07:52 AM EST
    but I learned earlier that you don't really want to discuss this.

    Parent
    Lets discuss (none / 0) (#89)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:09:54 AM EST
    Will Clinton's proposal impact the price of gas?

    Parent
    Almost certainly not in any meaningful way (none / 0) (#92)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:12:44 AM EST
    IMO.

    Parent
    Then it won't (none / 0) (#96)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:15:18 AM EST
    Impact demand either.

    That's all I was trying to say.

    Parent

    yes it will impact (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:18:32 AM EST
    demand because people will THINK they are saving and thus increase demand, maybe take that family vacation they were going to put off. and THIS will raise the prices back up.

    plus we lose all that money to the highway funds, there is just no good reason to do this besides cheap political points

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#99)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:21:27 AM EST
    3.95/gallon  = 3.95/gallon.   People won't think anything other than that.

    If there's no impact on price, there's no impact on demand.

    That's econ 101.


    Parent

    At the pump for most people, there won't be (none / 0) (#101)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:23:46 AM EST
    Or rather, the price might be lowered, but no gas will go unsold, and so the price will quickly return to equilibrium.

    Parent
    On balance, though (none / 0) (#102)
    by phat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:24:22 AM EST
    If people do take vacations they might not take, could that possibly have a positive impact on the economy?

    If, say, you also insist that any unreasonable profit (however defined) be taxed to balance the losses to the highway funds, could something like this work?

    I'm not opposed to short-term mitigation of problems for people in an emergency. If this isn't an emergency, well, it's bad policy.

    This could be a severe crisis, though.

    Parent

    If it's a real crisis (none / 0) (#108)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:29:10 AM EST
    then the government can offer to buy gas guzzlers from people and give them vouchers for hybrids etc.

    Parent
    That seems an untenable solution (none / 0) (#116)
    by phat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:37:50 AM EST
    And it's certainly not a short-term solution.

    The gas-tax holiday is an attempt at a short-term mitigation of short-term problems that may have long-term positive effects.

    I don't really buy it. But I don't mind discussing it.

    Parent

    Seriously, in the short term (none / 0) (#118)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:41:15 AM EST
    if we're talking about a serious crisis, you just make it illegal to drive guzzlers.

    Parent
    At this point (none / 0) (#124)
    by phat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:58:15 AM EST
    you have to consider what is fair.

    Telling poor people that they can't drive the only cars they can afford is not fair.

    Asking the oil companies to suck-it-up and limit profits and markup is much more fair.

    Who should take the hit in a crisis? Someone who is having trouble filling up their tank to get to their 9.00/hr job shouldn't have to deal with this problem. The people with 3 homes and a yacht should pitch in just a little bit, shouldn't they?

    And, in the context of a "gas tax holiday" this is much more clear. When a crisis that we might be facing occurs, I think it's reasonable to ask those who have little, to no, loss in standard of living, to tighten their belts, just a little bit.

    Again, I don't know that a gas tax holiday would do this. But it's certainly something worth considering.

    I don't know that I'd be able to write that legislation. I'm pretty sure even if I were able to write that bill it wouldn't get passed.

    However, the short-term mitigations of problems for the poor and middle-class (not to mention small business and farms) may make something like this worth it.

    We run huge deficits as it is. A small bump in those deficits may not mean much in the long run, assuming we get some sane people in office soon. It's a gamble, sure.

    Parent

    An 18 Cent reduction is the make or break (none / 0) (#154)
    by lilybart on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:54:00 AM EST
    for whether someone takes a vacation with a car or not?

    I know people here are desparate to support Hillary and any lame idea she has, but do you seriously think that this 18cents means anything? Better people stop buying Diet Coke and that useless crap, and go on a vacation!

    Parent

    This is (none / 0) (#158)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:27:22 AM EST
    the type of thinking that hurts Dems. It comes off as elitist. It's only 18 cents! Well, yes, it's only 18 cents but it still adds up.

    Parent
    TurthMatters, you assume the only people (none / 0) (#174)
    by lookoverthere on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:20:51 AM EST
    filling up are people who have money to take vacations. I disagree with your assumption.

    What about single moms whose kids will be out of school this summer? They have to pay for a  babysitter or daycare. $20 a month can be the difference between their kids eating supertsh!tty food or just sh!tty food.

    This is no long-term fix and yes, it's a pander. But even a little bit may help these folks. if there's apolitical hay to be made for the junior senator from New York, fine. Because once she's in office, I will hold her accountable to enact the energy plan she has outlined.

    Parent

    I'm not an expert on our strategic reserve... (none / 0) (#112)
    by sweetthings on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:31:13 AM EST
    But my impression is that we're mostly stockpiling oil, not gasoline. In which case, even opening the reserve won't really help...you'd still have to refine the oil into gas before Americans could put it into their cars.

    Even if we DO store large amounts of gasoline in the reserve, however, I would still oppose such an action. There is absolutely no evidence that the current oil prices are due to some kind of short-term fluctuation that could be overcome by a release from the reserve. Quite the contrary, actually. And if we are really looking at a long term supply, then we'd be absolute fools to start burning the reserve now.

    Parent

    That (none / 0) (#115)
    by phat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:35:06 AM EST
    I would have to agree with.

    I consider the reserves untouchable at this point.

    Parent

    I think you're right... (none / 0) (#138)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:05:08 AM EST
    It's called the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, not the Strategic Gasoline Reserve. I don't know if we have the refining capacity to turn it into gasoline quickly--this was an issue after Katrina, but maybe we're back at full capacity now.

    Parent
    yeah maybe the (none / 0) (#64)
    by TruthMatters on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:49:36 PM EST
    average voter wouldn't understand it, thats why its Hillary's job not to pander and promote things that just won't work and could do more harm then good.

    you tell me exactly how you saving $25 dollars on gas, is worth the $10 billion the Highway funds will lose?

    or are you telling us to believe that Bush will also sign the windfall tax?

    Parent

    In fairness, I don't think so. (none / 0) (#72)
    by sweetthings on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:56:10 PM EST
    I'm deeply, deeply disappointed in Hillary on this issue. She's supposed to be the smart one, the one who understands how things work and how to get things done. Obviously, this policy, if actually enacted, is just the opposite of that.

    However, Hillary is also a politician, and a politician with her back up against the wall. I can understand her need to differentiate herself from Obama on this issue. Sure, he's right on this one, but saying the right thing doesn't always make you popular. Sometimes you have to take the low road to finish first. That doesn't mean you always will.

    Parent

    She is smart enough (none / 0) (#155)
    by lilybart on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:55:35 AM EST
    to know this is just a pander. She will do whatever she needs to do to win, even if it is not good policy.

    Parent
    Yep, agree with the synopsis. (none / 0) (#183)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:58:42 AM EST
    lack of supply (none / 0) (#134)
    by bigbay on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:46:27 AM EST
    is not what is causing prices to up...it's speculation and the collapse of the dollar.

    Parent
    Krugman doesn't like it (none / 0) (#49)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:38:26 PM EST
    Hillary's twist doesn't make it work either.  She's pandering, but a lot of folks won't figure it out.

    Here's Krugman

    I'm with Obama and Krugman on this one.

    Oh sorry (none / 0) (#53)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:40:09 PM EST
    didn't see the Krugman above.

    Parent
    While I think that isn't the best idea (none / 0) (#73)
    by ajain on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:56:11 PM EST
    I think that it is a not so bad idea.
    I mean oil prices are at historic highs and truckers and farmers and just people  who travel a lot need some sort of break. Even if it is minimal, although this would really help some truckers. Not enough, but its something.

    The better idea is obviously to find a way to reduce oil prices directly, but if that isnt gonna happen, gotta do something. So I think all this hemming and hawing is just an over-reaction and while clearly this isnt the "progressive" approach, I dont think it is a particularly bad approach.

    That's DEFINITELY part of what we see here (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:42:48 AM EST
    Obama has a bad week and suddenly an idea that can be regarded as pandering but is ultimately benign is criticized as if it's socio-economic armageddon.

    If there's no over-reaction there's probably a lot more room for consensus on this being a legitimate criticism of Clinton.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#123)
    by ajain on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:58:02 AM EST
    The problem is a more immediate and direct one. It is about the gas prices. The overall economy is definitely in a bad place, but just on and everyday level, for people who really have to commute - this isnt about people in cities, this is about the truckers and other long distance commuters - this will provide some minimal relief in the absence of other actions.

    Now Hillary Clinton is not taking away money from the infrastructure maintenance fund, she is taxing the oil companies. Now whether or not it will happen is a totally separate issue, but I don't think there is any doubt that in the short term this will provide some relief to consumers, not a lot and not in the long term. But to somehow call her a Republican or a Conservative for this is just ridiculous. People have different ideas and while this is pretty imperfect, I think this is a legitimate discussion to have.

    Parent

    Clinton addresses the commodities market. (none / 0) (#184)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:03:05 PM EST
    She has it in her short term plan and the Dems are also talking about (saw both Dorgan and Cantwell).  She also talks about this on her stump speech.  Clinton has a comprehensive short term plan as well as medium and long term plans on energy.  She put this out in her press release and she talks about it in her stump speeches.

    This is great politics and good policy.  I know I have said this many times, but it is. A

    Parent

    It's a good thing (none / 0) (#121)
    by daryl herbert on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:53:04 AM EST
    there are no issues left to debate in this campaign.

    Otherwise we would have to endure more boring debates where absolutely nothing happens and we learn absolutely nothing about the candidates.

    Can't we just get back to the real issues, of which there aren't any, and not debate them?

    I wonder if this... (none / 0) (#139)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:19:30 AM EST
    ... is a classic issue where there is a real economic and urban/rural divide.

    To urban folks like myself, who are fortunate to be able to drive less or afford paying more, higher gas prices are annoying but not much else. We may even think that they're good, as they reduce pollution and carbon dioxide emissions. We probably use less gasoline than average.

    On the other hand, for those who have to watch their budgets more or live/work in places where using a lot of gasoline is almost required (rural areas where everything is far apart and there's no real public transportation, farms where machinery consumes a lot of gas), it's a different story. For the rural folks, gasoline is a real necessity. You simply have to have it, and not only that, you need a lot more of it than the average urban resident.

    My guess is that you'd read columns like today's piece by Thomas Friedman in the NYT, where he derides the idea of a gas tax reprieve, and disdainfully implies that the only benefit will be to make it cheaper to drive to the beach, in disbelief. I can't help but think that the column is amazingly condescending to people who (1) don't live anywhere near a beach, (2) can't afford a vacation, and (3) pay a heck of a lot for gas at it is.

    As someone pointed out, the gas tax is very regressive. Ordinarily, replacing a regressive tax with a tax on oil companies would be a no-brainer for Democrats, even if the overall effect is diminished by a subsequent change in gas prices. The gas tax's only real benefit is the negative incentive on driving that it produces. At some point, given the hard economic times, it's worth considering where the balance lies.

    From my own point of view, I don't mind paying more for gas if it helps the environment. But I understand a lot of people have a good reason to feel otherwise.

    Absolutely! (none / 0) (#152)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:48:48 AM EST
    This is why I appreciated Edgar08's and Jeralyn's and some others' appreciation of the complexity of this issue.

    While I agree that temporary suspension of the gas tax is not the best long-term policy in terms of environmental and other issues, and I think Krugman has it right, it is ALSO true that the price of gas is absolutely killing poor rural people right now. And is hits poor people disproportionately hard.

    This issue is not easily amenable to simple policy discussions right now. Sometimes I think people are  insensitive to the needs of poor people when they discuss things from a black-and-white policy angle only.

    Parent

    Paid by a progressive tax on oil companies and... (none / 0) (#186)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:05:51 PM EST
    not a regressive tax.  Brilliant politics, good policy, progressive and looking to the future because there will be need for another way to pay infrastructure costs after oil.

    Parent
    Gas tax regressive? (none / 0) (#159)
    by jsj20002 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:48:00 AM EST
    How so?  Federal gas taxes are user fees that apportion the fee to those that use them most, at least approximately. As others point out, these taxes pay for roads, bridges, etc.  More importantly, since the roads and bridges are in the U.S., the funds generated by the federal taxes employ Americans for the most part and they are investments for America's future.  Yes, people in rural areas pay more for transportation than people in urban areas, but they may pay less for housing. Farmers do not pay the federal gas tax on the fuel they use on their farms so take that out of the equation; Hillary's and John's plan does not lower the cost of fuel for farmers, but by stimulating increased demand for the fuel by motorists, probably raises the cost of the fuel the farmers need.  I also agree with those who say Hillary's plan to pay for it with an oil company excess profits tax will never see the light of day.  It is a tax increase, which Bush will never sign into law, and he will blame the Dems for having nerve to try to do it.        

    Parent
    Do you know what the word (none / 0) (#162)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:07:18 AM EST
    "regressive" means?  You don't seem to.

    Parent
    Yes, I know what a regressive tax is. (none / 0) (#163)
    by jsj20002 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:19:21 AM EST
    I majored in economics in college and specialized in government regulation of business in law school. I also worked twenty five years as a career lawyer at the U.S. Department of Commerce. Please explain your concept of a regressive tax instead of criticizing my concept of a user fee.  

    Parent
    My impression... (none / 0) (#187)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:09:14 PM EST
    ... is that regressive means it takes a larger percentage of the income of the lower income folks than higher income folks.

    Is that not what it means?

    Parent

    No. (none / 0) (#191)
    by jsj20002 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:14:33 PM EST
    By your definition, a bus fare is a regressive tax since everyone pays the same fare to board the bus but the fare represents a much higher proportion of a lower income person's disposable income.  Indeed, under your definition, virtually every user fee would be a regressive tax.

    Parent
    Okay... (none / 0) (#193)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:46:20 PM EST
    That's a good point.

    Though I hear people say that a sales tax is regressive too, and that seems to be similar.

    Whether or not a gas tax is officially regressive, it does take more money from the poor than the rich, and that remains a valid criticism, I think.

    Parent

    Bush may try to blame the Dems. (none / 0) (#188)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:15:19 PM EST
    But, the Dems should be able to frame this and put the onus back on him.  

    I do have a question.  Are farmers exempt from federal gas taxes for all their vehicles? I really want to know.

    As far as paying less for housing, I moved to a rural area after living all my life in a urban area and that is true.  However, there are much less jobs  and pay much less so any increase hurts disproportionately the rural and small towns.

    BTW, this ad also talks about foreclosures. A neat trick to show another difference.

    Parent

    According to the IRS Website (none / 0) (#192)
    by jsj20002 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:34:37 PM EST
    "Fuel and Road Use Tax - Agriculture Tax Tips"

    You may be eligible to claim a credit or refund of excise taxes on fuel used on a farm for farming purposes. This applies if you are the owner, tenant, or operator of a farm. You can claim only a credit for the tax on gasoline used on a farm for farming purposes. You can claim either a credit or refund for the tax on aviation fuel used on a farm for farming purposes.

    What Cannot be Claimed as a Credit or Refund

    You cannot claim a credit or refund for the tax on undyed diesel fuel or undyed kerosene used on a farm for farming purposes or for any use of dyed diesel fuel or dyed kerosene.

    You buy dyed diesel fuel and dyed kerosene excise tax free. You must use them only for a nontaxable use, including use on a farm for farming purposes. If you use the dyed fuel for a taxable use, you could be subject to the excise tax and a penalty. For example, if a truck used on a farm for farming purposes is also used on the highways (even though in connection with operating the farm), tax applies to the diesel fuel used (or sold for use) in operating the truck on the highways. The fuel was used off the farm for a taxable use.

    Parent

    Updated Info (none / 0) (#195)
    by jsj20002 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:59:53 PM EST
    Just watched Gwen Ifill filling in as anchor for Jim Lehrer on PBS.  Seems that both McCain and Clinton said their federal gas tax moratorium would help farmers.  Apparently neither of them know that farmers do not now pay that tax for fuel for tractors and other farm equipment. This can't be good for Hillary as all Indiana and North Carolina farmers are well aware that a four month tax moratorium will not reduce their fuel costs very much.  On the other hand, Barack said the tax moratorium might save the average family about $30 over the course of the summer. The PBS expert, a former Treasury career civil servant whose name I can't recall, refuted Barack and said the tax moratorium would not reduce gas prices at all because the refineries are at capacity right now and cannot produce more gasoline if a lower pump price were to stimulate demand. The expert said a gas tax repeal might result in the average motorist saving about $2 over the next four months. Unfortunately, it appears that all three candidates need to retake Econ 101.    

    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#161)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:05:56 AM EST
    You are exactly right, and I don't know what the solution is in the short and medium-term.  Long-term, among other things, CAFE standards have to be raised significantly and expanded, and maybe they should start imposing them on heavy machinery like tractors and other farm equipment.  I doubt there's any real reason why that kind of equipment can't be made to run more efficiently.

    I will say, though, that despite having to drive a gas hog vehicle, I actually use less gas here than I did in the suburbs.  That's partly because on fast country roads, it runs vastly more efficiently (and the engine lasts a hell of a lot longer) than it does spending all day stuck in stop-and-go suburban/urban traffic.  It's also because the distances mean I'm very careful in planning my trips.  If you forget to pick up your arugula (heh) at the supermarket, there's no quick dash back across town just before dinner to pick it up.

    Parent

    I also... (none / 0) (#140)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:22:20 AM EST
    ... remember a quote (or paraphrase of a quote) from Carville from the 1992 primaries.

    Bill Clinton was proposing a middle-class tax cut, and Tsongas opposed it, saying he wasn't Santa Claus, much to the approval of most editorial page writers and pundits. According to Bob Woodward, Carville said that political courage is defined by the willingness to slap working people around, and that we need to help them out, rather than bury them in political courage.

    After reading Armstrong at MyDD.... (none / 0) (#143)
    by Oje on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:42:23 AM EST
    I have to say I think this could be an effective pivot to a discussion of taxes on corporate profits. I am generally against the idea of "less taxes" as a stimulus, but Clinton is not really proposing that. Her plan shifts the tax burden from consumers to (oil) corporations.

    The key premise, though, is "windfall profits." What is that?

    Economists, armed with their 19th-century science, and progressive Obama supporters no doubt, will come out of the woodwork to suggest that profits are what they are because the market demands/bears it. Or, to tell us all that taxation of capital sinks the ship that carries us all to wealth and prosperity. There are no "windfall profits!"

    W/E.

    In any case, Clinton will be challenged to convince Americans that the taxation of corporate profits does not retard the economy or inflate prices. Personally, I would like to see a progressive tax on dividends linked to P-E ratios. She might argue that such a tax does not retard production or increase prices in the long run because it forces corporations to allocate more funds to research and development or to upgrade existing infrastructures, rather than dissipate industry earnings with excessive dividends.

    Exactly. What is too much profit? (none / 0) (#156)
    by lilybart on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:59:37 AM EST
    In a capitalist system, how can there be too much profit? Unless there is a monopoly and price fixing, then whatever profit a company can make is how capitalism works.

    Oil companies do not need tax breaks or subsidies. That can all be stopped and should be stopped. when a company is selling something that is moving like hotcakes no matter what the price, then the market says they will make huge profits. How can we mess with that without nationalizing oil and gas or something?

    The hard fact is that this resource needs to be replaced. There should be investment in alt energy NOW through higher gas taxes!


    Parent

    Ummm (none / 0) (#166)
    by Oje on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:47:04 AM EST
    I think you miss the point of my third paragraph, which is to dismiss neo-classical or Miltonian arguments about market utopianism. You immediately create a false choice: untaxed profits or nationalize. Again, whatever...

    Parent
    So what is the (none / 0) (#164)
    by flyerhawk on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:27:27 AM EST
    Senate Resolution # for this proposal?

    If she really believes that this is a good idea then she better get on proposing some legislation enacting the removal of the fuel excise tax.

    This is a terrible idea (none / 0) (#172)
    by CST on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:18:27 AM EST
    And it won't win her any of the voting block she doesn't already have.

    This hurts my common sense, and frankly, it hurts my economic situation too since I, like thousands of others, rely on that money for a job.

    I'll take a dose of the windfall tax without a tax vacation on the side please.

    Political Stunt (none / 0) (#173)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:19:01 AM EST
    Posturing at the expense of the American people is what HRC and JM are doing.  Nearly every economist I read says it is a bad idear, and I tend to favor the libs in economics.  Yet here we have Edgar telling us the basics of econ 101.  Robert Reich, Krugman, Amer Society of Civil Eng, and a half dozen other economists all say bad idea. Creates demand which increases price.  

    Want to go after windfall profits to force reinvestment into alternative sources for energy that will create new jobs and give the economy a "real" lift, now there is an idea.  Robbing from Peter to pay Paul only  makes Peter ask for more "donations" from his flock to cover his losses.  If we are going to pay for windfall profits we may as try and force some new jobs out of it.

    But hey, don't let the leading economists tell you why Hillary's idea is awful, it sounds great to the "working man" so it must be good....

    I like Krugman and agree with him on most issues. (none / 0) (#182)
    by alexei on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:56:40 AM EST
    Just not on this issue.  If Clinton's proposal is passed in its entirety, it is good policy and great politics.  In a nutshell, here is why I believe Krugman is wrong:

    1. Oil companies will not reap the benefits, they will be taxed instead.  No net loss of income to infrastructure repair.
    2. I believe that Clinton is looking at other funding mechanisms for infrastructure to replace this regressive tax in conjunction with the windfall profits tax.
    3. There will be some help to those that depend on their vehicles (truckers, farmers,etc.) and at a minimum, people will feel that the government is helping them.  This is important.
    4. I don't think that people will drive more, I don't think that it is enough to cut the cost to allow that.
    5. There will be other methods and modes both fuel and type of travel to replace internal combustion vehicles.  This is a step to move on other fronts for funding those.
    6. Clinton has a comprehensive energy plan and this is just part of her short term proposal.
    7. The Dems will look good, and Bush and Repubs will look bad if he vetoes and they uphold his veto.  Otherwise, how bipartisan is this if it does pass in its entirety.