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Better Than 1990s Triangulation?

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

Discussing the seemingly NOT departed Mark Penn (did the Clinton campaign get rid of him or not? Apparently it was a demotion, not a firing. Bad move by the Clinton camp.), Ezra Klein wrote:

[quoting Mark Schmitt] "[T]he ambitions of the early Clinton years were abandoned for safe, symbolic gestures appealing to the middle-class swing voters -- 'soccer moms' -- in a few swing states." An argument can be made that that was the only viable strategy in 1996. I'm not adept enough with counterfactuals to really know. But there's no argument that that's all that can be hoped for in 2008. Penn might have once been necessary, but he's never been desirable. Now, however, he's neither.

Indeed, 1990s style triangulation is not desirable, necessary or effective now. But someone needs to tell that to Senator Barack Obama, whose campaign has been a case study in the fine art of Bill Clinton-like 1990s triangulaton. Has no one noticed this? Ezra Klein is a foremost health care blogger, who endorsed the Edwards health care plan. The one most like Hillary's. That Obama has ATTACKED that plan with "Harry and Louise" ads seems to not have entered Klein's thinking in that post.

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  • Display: Sort:
    It goes to show (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:02:54 PM EST
    just how consistent people are at choosing candidates instead of issues.

    Elizabeth Edwards streaming from Harvard (none / 0) (#45)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:06:45 PM EST
    at 6 pm ET, health care - http://www.iop.harvard.edu/

    Elizabeth will then appear on Countdown with Keith Olberman at 8 pm ET

    If you missed her interview on Good Morning America...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BILsBaySOKE

    Parent

    actually now she's talking about the media (none / 0) (#48)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:24:14 PM EST
    and press manipulating our elections.
    Maybe health care is later...


    Parent
    I've never found Obama (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by madamab on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:09:23 PM EST
    to be a straight talker on any subject. There is too much soundbyting going on, and all Democrats have to parse their words very carefully.

    Obama has learned the lesson well. (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:09:32 PM EST
    Bill and Hillary Clinton: Tried for universal health care, one of the most venerable goals of the Democratic Party. Got smoked.

    Barack Obama: Decides not to try at all.

    Good to see how far we've come.

    What is it with the fixation on mandates? (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by 1jpb on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:12:18 PM EST
    Most people who are in love with mandates don't even know the variations of Original Medicare versus the three private types of Medicare.  And, yet they think (mistakenly, as I see it) that they are health care experts and mandates are wonderful.

    Then, there are the experts like Krugman and those academics at the core of the HRC and MA plans.  These folks ask us to look at very different European plans rather than the problems with the MA plan which is much more similar to HRC's mandate plan.

    I don't understand why the problems with mandates aren't addressed.

    Here's the thing (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:20:36 PM EST
    In a debate Obama said his plan would mandate for children and that was a good thing because it forces parents to take responsibility for their children.

    My immediate reaction was very simple:  "Why doesn't the same logic apply to the parents.  Why shouldn't adults be forced to take responsibility for themselves?"

    A lot of this is good to discuss.  The analogy is not perfect.

    But there was a time when mandating car insurance was equally controversial.  Now it's just part of the way we think as Americans.  And if you were to meet someone who was driving and did not have insurance we would regard that person as very irresponsible and subject to sanction in the states where those sanctions applied.  

    This is how people will regard people without health insurance one day.

    And that will be a good thing.


    Parent

    I may be mistaken (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by BlacknBlue on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:23:38 PM EST
    As I don't have a car, but you're only mandated to get car insurance that pays for damages you cause other drivers, no? Thats is, you don't have to pay for car insurance protecting yourself.

    Parent
    You know (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:30:24 PM EST
    The analogy isn't perfect, is it?

    Did you respond to the point I made?

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#23)
    by BlacknBlue on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:34:41 PM EST
    But there is a HUGE difference between forced to have insurance to pay in case you run someone over, and being forced to pay insurance to take care of yourself. You shouldn't be forced to take care of yourself if you don't want to.

    Parent
    That's interesting, (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by dk on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:36:17 PM EST
    because I'm forced to take care of you if you don't take care of yourself and have no insurance and then go to some emergency room.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#41)
    by badger on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:58:14 PM EST
    The argument for mandates isn't "we know what's best for you" - that's a smokescreen.

    The argument is that mandates serve the common good and prevent selfish individuals from not carrying their share of the burden for something they will eventually make use of.

    Lack of mandates leads to people not getting early preventative care, which makes their health care more expensive. They're more likely to make their initial contact with the system in an ER, also more expensive. And they haven't been contributing to finance the health care system, which means everyone's premiums will be substantially higher so that a few selfish individuals can avoid paying for health care until they desperately need it but still get it when they do need it.

    Parent

    Through taxes (none / 0) (#44)
    by BlacknBlue on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:06:34 PM EST
    As citizens in Western European countries are. Which is how it should be: People paying taxes to the government based on their ability to do so, with the govt then providing care. Not forcing people to pay private companies.

    Parent
    Hillary's plan... (none / 0) (#54)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:33:48 PM EST
    ... has a public component. You can buy a plan from the government similar to Medicare if you want.

    Honestly, every time I hear this "Hillary will force you to buy from private insurers" I want to scream. That so many people apparently believe it shows just how successful Obama's campaign against universal health care has been.

    He's done more harm to the cause of universal health care since Harry and Louise in 1994. And Democrats can't wait to make him our nominee.

    Parent

    In time (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    That difference will appear irrelevant.


    Parent
    In time (none / 0) (#31)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:45:06 PM EST
    The problem is that it would be good to get health care reform now....Mandates will be easier to morph into socialized medicine come Fall....By allowing people to have a "choice," you will garner more support from Independents....

    You have to be very far in the weeds to understand, let alone have a strong preference regarding, mandates....But this formulation is easy to understand: Mandates="Hillary care"=no health care reform.

    Parent

    Incrementalism (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:48:15 PM EST
    Triangulation.


    Parent
    Pre-emptively giving up... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:31:51 PM EST
    ... because of fear of the opponent is not inspiring.

    It also seems to concede the point that Hillary's plan is better, just that Obama is afraid to push for it.

    Parent

    Not necessarily (none / 0) (#58)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:51:20 PM EST
    It is unclear which plan is better to many....

    I can tell how it sounds...and it sounds like something that would easily scare suburbia.

    Parent

    That's a valid argument... (none / 0) (#29)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:40:01 PM EST
    ... but it's one espoused by the Libertarian Party, not the Democratic Party.

    What happens when you don't take care of yourself, and then get sick, and decide that living is better than dying after all? Then who pays for it?

    You can't opt out of paying for public schools, or fire departments, or the police. Health care shouldn't be an exception.

    Parent

    There's been a lot of comments, (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by 1jpb on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:15:09 PM EST
    but nobody is addressing my link in my first comment.  The point is that we have every reason to believe that people will not magically have insurance just because the government declares (mandates) that all shall purchase insurance.  HRC's plan, very wrongly, assumes that there is no need to have a structural reform that would truly deal with the two big problems 1) the private companies living off of the government programs (in a way unique to the US), and 2) lack of strong cost controls.

    I see that a lot of HRC supporters comment that the solution to health care is simply to declare that people must buy it.  I am not motivated to respond to that argument because nobody can point to situations where simply ordering such things has been successful (deities excluded.)  Hopefully some folks can present a more complete argument in favor of the HRC plan.

    Parent

    Well... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:30:50 PM EST
    Cost control is a separate issue from getting everyone insurance, but still, you can't begin to control costs until you have everyone in the system. Cost control certainly won't work in a plan like Obama's, which practically invites adverse selection to launch costs to the moon.

    Clinton's proposal includes a public plan, similar to Medicare, that will be open to everyone that will compete with private insurers. Since it won't be run for profit and can hopefully match Medicare's extremely low administrative costs, it will either force private insurers to improve their own efficiency (in addition to the requirements that Clinton is already proposing) or go out of business.

    As for people following a mandate, I argue that most people follow the law. We almost all pay taxes, avoid littering, avoid driving in the carpool lane, get driver licenses, stay on trails in national parks, etc. For a lot of those, the chance that we'll be caught if we don't do it is minimal, and the consequences not that severe. Yet we obey the law anyway.

    Finally, any argument that mandates won't work invites the question--why does Obama have them for children then? Why are they such a great idea and so workable for kids but somehow a huge government overreach and obvious catastrophe when applied to adults?

    Parent

    My link (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by 1jpb on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:33:27 PM EST
    answers all of this, and more.

    Parent
    I disagree... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:40:09 PM EST
    Why wouldn't low cost, healthy patients choose the government plan, that has lower premiums and less administrative cost?

    And you didn't appear to answer the part about adverse selection. If Obama's plan passes, the first thing I'm going to do is drop my health insurance. I'm healthy now, and I don't need it.

    If I get sick, then I'll go buy it. Obama's plan says that the insurers have to give me a plan despite my pre-existing condition. I'll get treated, recover, and then drop it again. Maybe when I turn 50 and start getting chronic illnesses I'll stay on it. But basically, I'll only be on insurance when I have a lot of bills. How on earth can such a system work?

    Massachusetts is an experiment, and far from a failure. That it's not perfect in its first year isn't an argument for tossing it completely. You say it's already enrolled half the uninsured, even without the aggressive subsidies, regulations, and public plan that Clinton offers. Obama's plan in its entirety only expects to enroll 2/3 of the uninsured.

    Obama's plan simply won't work. Adverse selection will destroy it. And even if people don't take advantage of it, it will still leave 15 million people uninsured. That's not universal health care, that's pre-emptive surrender.

    Parent

    People (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:04:21 PM EST
    don't buy what they don't want....

    Here in California, I just do not see people being cool with being told they have to buy coverage--there is a strong libertarian streak that has propelled Ahnold here.....You are talking about trying to accomplish a major change in attitude, and new level of governmental interference in people's personal lives....

    People who have coverage now are not just going to drop it if Obama's plan passes.....There are all kinds of transitional costs and uncertainties....If you got it, you would keep it rather than gamble.

    Parent

    He has talked about (none / 0) (#61)
    by 1jpb on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:01:09 PM EST
    retroactive charges for those who try to game the system.  So that deals with adverse selection.

    He opens the government plan just like HRC so if you believe:

    "Why wouldn't low cost, healthy patients choose the government plan, that has lower premiums and less administrative cost?"

    Then the same is true for BO's plan.

    The problem with the MA plan is that the architects of that plan (and the HRC plan) didn't consider all the things that could; and did, go wrong.

    The only big difference between the BO and HRC plans is the regressive mandate penalty.  Why are liberals in favor of such a regressive (up to 10% tax) plan?

    Why are liberal mandate advocates pretending that the underlying system isn't broken?  Only with this purposeful blindness does the mandate plan work.  Which is precisely why the mandates overlaid on our existing system don't work in practice, reality doesn't allow us to ignore the inconvenient facts.

    Parent

    People... (none / 0) (#63)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:55:12 PM EST
    This retroactive penalty doesn't seem to be laid out very firmly in his position paper, unless it'd been added recently. I've only heard it mentioned rather vaguely at debates.

    Don't you think having to pay back premiums will cause people to avoid getting care?

    Parent

    His penalty (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by 1jpb on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:13:56 PM EST
    is just as detailed as is HRC's mandate penalty.

    I'm sure you'd agree that both are being political by avoiding specifics.  

    I think that our system is fundamentally broken: it costs too much, and provides too little for too few.  I'm sure you saw that my link refers to a Duke study showing that some health care providers charge twice as much as others, and the less expensive providers get better results.  

    People with medical problems will still get care because they won't have another option, i.e. what's worse: terrible injury/death or a penalty?  Until politicians really reform the underlying system people are better off without a regressive mandate penalty that hurts families.

    Parent

    But... (none / 0) (#71)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:26:00 PM EST
    ... when someone says you're required to do something (get health insurance), you naturally assume there must be some penalty if you don't.

    Does Obama's plan say anywhere there will be a back penalty if you don't sign up?

    Parent

    I don't believe you understand (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by BevD on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:17:56 PM EST
    Clinton's plan.  There are three options to her plan: 1. people can purchase insurance on their own, 2. people can continue to purchase insurance through their employer, 3. people can purchase one of the plans that government workers are entitled to buy.  The first option is self explanatory as is 2 with the provision that employers will receive tax incentives to offer insurance, if they don't offer insurance then they must pay into an insurance pool to offset the cost of health insurance for their workers.  Small businesses will receive tax credits and other incentives to make insurance affordable to them and their employees.  The third option allows workers to purchase those plans that are available to govt. workers, who have access to different plans.  

    Those workers who are at a certain income level threshhold will receive tax credits to offset the cost of the insurance refundable in the same manner as federal tax credits are - when their return is filed for that year.  Medicaid  and Schip will still be available to supplement and/or pay medical bills.  Medicare will still act as the conduit for payment for the retired.  The purchasing of insurance will be mandated in the same way FICA and SECA are mandated - through statutes.  The employer will collect the insurance premiums (and probably contribute something) and remit those payments in a timely fashion to the government.  Not only will mandates spread the risk over a much larger pool of insured, it will also serve the purpose of conditioning workers and employers that both must contribute in any system, whether it is universal single payer or privately administered insurance.  No one will receive "free health care" from the government, it is just not possible.

    There are several reasons why this country cannot move to a single payer system overnight.  One major reason is  economic - it will be disruptive to the economy and felt through the entire financial system - the insurance industry is a major source of investment funds, hundreds of thousands of workers will be out of work as will workers in the health care industry itself.  How will we replace this source of investment funds, how will we provide jobs to the million or so people who work in the industries, how will we manage the disruption in the financial sector?  All of these problems must be addressed before we can begin the transfer to a universal single payer system.  Cost controls will be managed in the same way Medicare controls them now - they negotiate volume discounts and tie costs to the "average regional cost of procedure".  My own opinion is that we are looking at a ten year time span from inception to implementation.  (Just as seatbelts were mandated or the move from analog to digital signals were.)

    I can point to two situations where mandating or ordering such things is successful - medicare and social security.  Both programs are quite efficient in their administration and distribution.  Yes, problems, errors and mistakes occur, but they occur in any institution privately or government owned and operated.

    Parent

    BevD. Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by RalphB on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:31:06 PM EST
    I believe you're right that it's not understood.  There is also a public plan, similar to Medicare, available to anyone who chooses it in Clinton's proposals.  Since the admin costs of such a plan should approximate Medicare, thus lower than current private insurers, it would provide incentive for consumers to choose it at a lower cost.  I see it as the camel's nose under the tent for true UHC, or the private insurers will successfully compete.  Either way that's a good thing.


    Parent
    Thank you... (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by BevD on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:57:32 PM EST
    people seem not to get the big picture - Clinton's plan is the only truly progressive plan because it puts us on the path to universal, single payer health care.  Obama's plan just kicks the can up the road.

    Universal single payer health care is the goal, but it needs to be implemented in the least disruptive manner.

    Parent

    Good post (none / 0) (#59)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:54:32 PM EST
    I have heard that there is a problem with mandates in Massachusetts....

    And it was an excellent point about mandated insurance coverage.....Ordering it doesn't make it so.....Making it less expensive is the key to having people actually purchase coverage.

    Parent

    mandated auto coverage ..... (none / 0) (#60)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:55:02 PM EST
    The analogy isn't perfect... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:37:48 PM EST
    ... as you note. But how would dropping the car insurance requirement help anything?

    If you don't have health insurance, and you get sick, then you do cause harm to other people. Everyone else pays for your health care costs.

    Parent

    Another analogy (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by ColumbiaDuck on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:30:27 PM EST
    And perhaps more apt would be "what happens to those kids if their parents get sick?"  

    Parent
    Are you asking why (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:22:37 PM EST
    Obama fixated on attacking mandates? I don't know. You would have to ask him.

    As for policy, Ezra Klein says they are essential. I would not know.

    Parent

    the way I see it - (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:28:10 PM EST
    Obama omits 15M of us before he begins his Kumbaya sessions with the Insurance Industry.
    And he's already bowed to the Insurance Indusry (and the GOP) by using their '93-94 "Harry and Louise" ads against Hillary.
    Oh yes - Obama has run a brilliant campaign. ;>

    Obama is no friend to those in need of health care.


    Parent

    Mandates are essential. The problem is the (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Jammer on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:03:16 PM EST
    lack of financial participation by 50 million people in the health system.  They show up at ER's when they get sick, cant pay, and hospitals raise prices and rates to recapture the lost revenue.  We, who are insured, all pay for that in our insurance rates, and those without insurance who would pay cash for services get the same increased prices for basic services which they then cannot afford.

    Ultimately, everyone must be in the system.  That was the key to Hillary Care in the 1990's and lets be clear: no one rejected her plan on the merits.  It never got far enough to be debated on the merits.  Insurance mandates are a poor second choice to universal single payer coverage because it does nothing to relieve businesses of the huge costs of insurance which makes our products more pricey and less competitive. Plus a pure profit motive in evaluating health insurance claims is an ethical disaster.  However, ANY plan that just tries to make things more affordable with hope that people will then buy insurance is no fix at all, and nothing but a tiny baby step to the side.

    As I understand Sen. Clinton's plan, it includes subsidies, tax credits and other financial carrots to get people to buy into the system, including access to the government employee system at a reasonable rate.  Obviously requiring someone to buy something they truly cannot afford is useless and cruel.  But even if the government has to completely subsidize insurance for those who are poor, we are better off than with 50 million people wholly outside the system.  The cost of health care is so pricey that we simply can no longer afford it or fund it only by those who choose to buy into it.

    Parent

    Your comment indicates that (none / 0) (#49)
    by 1jpb on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:26:59 PM EST
    you're aware of some of the problems with mandates.  But, you still ignore the extremely regressive nature of the HRC mandates for so called middle class families who are struggling.

    We need systematic reform before regressive mandates that don't address (and even strengthen) the private companies at the same time average, but not poor, families are hurt.

    Parent

    You're kidding right? (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by RalphB on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:34:06 PM EST
    Using Michael Moore as your health care expert against a wide range of professionals.  What a kidder  :-)

    Parent
    the way I see it - (none / 0) (#16)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:28:10 PM EST
    Obama omits 15M of us before he begins his Kumbaya sessions with the Insurance Industry.
    And he's already bowed to the Insurance Indusry (and the GOP) by using their '93-94 "Harry and Louise" ads against Hillary.
    Oh yes - Obama has run a brilliant campaign. ;>

    Obama is no friend to those in need of health care.


    Parent

    Penn (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by bjorn on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:12:36 PM EST
    gives me the creeps and always has.  I don't understand why Senator Clinton picked him and let him stay as long as she did.  I do think it reflects negatively on her to have creepy people like him around.

     A lot of the women she has around her are exceptional and I think Wolfson has been good.

     Excellent point BTD, Obama seems to be running by taking no definite position on anything.  He says things, and his actions don't always match up.  The difference between him and Bill Clinton seems to be the aura thing...Clinton was warm, had empathy.  Obama seems cold and aloof, if not condescending.

    I guess the question is: Do politicians run these kinds of campaigns because it is what gets them elected?  If that is true, it reflects negatively on the voters - meaning we would rather they play the game with us.  So many of us just want Clinton to bust out of the campaign box and be herself more.  Because we know who she is and what she can do.  With Obama, if he were to be himself, who would he be?  I have no idea, don't feel like I know him at all.

    Obama seems to be hedging his bets (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by litigatormom on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:18:47 PM EST
    trying to be all things to all people.

    If he was afraid that he faced a hostile Congress if elected -- as Bill Clinton did, even in 1992, since the Dems' House majority wasn't very strong, either numerically or politically -- then I could see him hedging his bets about what he would do if elected.

    But given that if Obama wins, he is likely to have a significant majority in the House, and a smaller (but bigger than today's) majority in the Senate, I'm not sure what the cautiousness is about.

    It comes down to Axelrod's strategy (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:21:13 PM EST
    which is to bypass the specifics in favor of biography.

    Parent
    LOL - excellent (none / 0) (#22)
    by Josey on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:33:41 PM EST
    yet another reason to support the KNOWN, warts and all, than the UNKNOWN.

    Parent
    Reminds me of Rumsfeld (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by litigatormom on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:03:50 PM EST
    "There are the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns...."

    Parent
    You have misquoted Klein (none / 0) (#6)
    by SpinDoctor on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:16:56 PM EST
    Most of the quotation you attributed to Ezra was actually written by Mark Schmitt.

    It's a little confused (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:18:44 PM EST
    But the part in bold is CLEARLY Ezra.

    Parent
    Thanks for the correction (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:21:25 PM EST
    Fixed now. Is this the Spin Doctor from tacitus?

    Parent
    Long time Armando! (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by SpinDoctor on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:24:41 PM EST
    One and the same.  I am very glad to see you have returned to blogging as I missed both your insight and passion.

    Parent
    Good to see you (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:28:57 PM EST
    Harley stops by an torments me often.

    Trickster pops by now and then too. Charles Bird used to also but not for a while.

    Parent

    In Microtrends (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:29:36 PM EST
    Yes.  I read the book.  

    Anyway, in Micro-trends Penn says that the soccer-moms are now 10 years older, their kids thinking about college, they have more time now, more inclined to become more politically active and more informed on the issues that concern them.

    In a sense, he would admit himself that the argument that was made in 1996 no longer applies.

    I find it odd that one person had dictatorial control over the campaign.  All these reports of how loathed he is within the campaign seem to surface only through hearsay and/or unnamed sources.  To me it strikes me as one of those sub-narratives that took shape simply because -- and for no other reason -- it was repeated ad infinitum and no one ever thought to ask:  "Well, is that really true?"

    The Clinton management style has been reported as rather flat in the past.  If an idea is good it is considered on it's merits regardless of the source, be it a staffer or a billion dollar consultant.

    If that's changed, then yes.  Clinton should get back to her roots.

    It's not the Clinton management style that I understood existed during Bill's administration.

    The Penn Crap Is Ridiculous, IMO (none / 0) (#35)
    by BDB on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:51:30 PM EST
    Because ultimately how much influence an advisor has isn't in his or her title or official role in the campaign, it's whether or not a candidate listens to them.  I think Clinton made a lot of early mistakes in the campaign, some of those were no doubt based on Penn's advice, some on Patty Solis Doyle's management.  But there's no lack of differing opinions around Clinton and ultimately the decisions made - the good and the bad - were hers.

    Only she knows how much of a role Penn retains in her campaign because only she knows how influential he is.  The "Is Penn Gone Or Isn't He" is, IMO, the stupidest kerfluffle in a campaign that has had a lot of stupid kerfluffles.  Even if he was gone, he could still call her.  Even if he's there, it doesn't mean she listens to him.

    And what makes it even stupider is that Penn is routinely cited for why Clinton sucks, even when her actual positions are terrific.  You read it all the time, Hillary will put out a terrific economic plan and the response is, yes, but she's surrounded by guys like Mark Penn.  As if Obama isn't (oil executive bundlers, registered lobbyists running his NH and SC campaings).  But it's a very convenient way for some to ignore the policy areas where Clinton's proposals are superior to Obama's (this I'm certain is another Obama/Clinton Rules issue because even when Obama puts out less progressive economic plans, you never hear the Blogger Boys worry about Austen Goolsbee).  

    Penn may be the absolute worst person on earth, I have no idea, I've never met him.  I don't think he should ever be allowed in front of a television camera, that I know.  But for all his alleged influence, Clinton's policies, particularly on the domestic front, have routinely been considered to be at least as progresssive, and often more progressive, than Obama's.  

    Parent

    I do know this (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:57:37 PM EST
    Obama is closer to Wright than Clinton is to Penn.


    Parent
    Perception of Hillary (none / 0) (#21)
    by magster on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:33:01 PM EST
    arising from Penn and Bill's ties to Colombia Free Trade Agreement could really be an opportunity for Obama.  Why Clinton exposed herself to the story of a "campaign unraveling" by firing Penn without the corresponding benefit of actually having fired Penn is a worst of both worlds situation for Clinton.

    It's called triangulation (none / 0) (#27)
    by MKS on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:38:02 PM EST
    Trying to have it both ways....

    Parent
    At the risk (none / 0) (#28)
    by DaytonDem on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:40:00 PM EST
    of offending you BTD the day the statement was released a commenter pointed out the press release said Penn was staying on in a lesser capacity and you took them down pretty hard. Now maybe that person is a known troll or someone you have a history with, but they were right. I wish Penn was gone too.

    Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:43:02 PM EST
    And I think with reason. Those types of releases are standard issue for a graceful departure.

    The fact that it was true does not change that.

    Penn should never even be seen.

    The Clinton campaign bungled this, but not because of the original press release.

    Parent

    I went back and read the CNN story (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:56:15 PM EST
    Mark Penn and his political consulting firm will continue to advise the New York senator's Democratic presidential bid, but Penn will give up his job as chief strategist, campaign manager Maggie Williams said.

    That's in the story itself, the one you linked to.  So your reporting, your headline -- "Out of campaign" -- was inaccurate.  So was the CNN headline itself actually.  Their second paragraph contradicted their headline.

    It only appears bungled now cause it was mis-reported.

    Your hatred for Penn actually played into Obama supporters hands in this case.  Now they can spew on about having things both ways.  And triangulation.

    Because people out there said "he's gone" when he never was.

    There was no bungling here.  Except to say you think every day Penn is involved in the Clinton camp in any way shape or form is day of bungling.


    Parent

    I read that release exactly as you did (none / 0) (#32)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:46:37 PM EST
    It's hard to imagine why they're keeping him on, unless he knows where the real bodies are buried or something.

    Parent
    Why Not Keep Him On? (none / 0) (#39)
    by BDB on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:57:16 PM EST
    Most voters don't have any idea who he is.  It's irrelevant outside of the blogosphere.  He had to step down to make it clear she disagreed with him on Colombia.  Sure, there will be some who say she secretly supports the Colombian trade pact and this is proof.  But there will be some who say that even if Penn had been fired instead of demoted.

    And when the last guy in Mark Penn's role spews daily hatred and lies about you, why alienate the current guy in a close race?  Also, for all I know, he might be an excellent pollster.  

    Parent

    It will be interesting to see (none / 0) (#36)
    by fuzzyone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:53:16 PM EST
    if Obama, and his union allies, use the retention of Penn plus Bill's work with Columbia to any good effect in PA.  Could be a big mistake by Clinton, but too soon to tell.

    Parent
    BTD's last graf (none / 0) (#34)
    by mattt on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:49:51 PM EST
    doesn't make sense to me.  Ezra cares (and knows) a lot about healthcare, ok...but should he be expected to be a one issue voter?  He has posted at other times that he prefers Hillary's plan, and that he has other reasons for liking Obama.

    I'm no expert but I like Hillary's health care plan the best.  I don't see the point of choosing a presidential candidate based on the details of their plan, though, since whatever they spell out in April will likely bear little resemblance to whatever emerges from the congressional sausage machine two or three years hence.

    Not sure I totally agree (none / 0) (#38)
    by fuzzyone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:57:03 PM EST
    I prefer Obama overall, but I think there is an argument that Clinton, by starting with a higher bid as it were, is likely to get a better deal in the end.  The counter argument is that by trying for the whole thing up front she is more vulnerable to the same attacks that took down her health care plan last time.  I'm not sure who is right.  I think anyone who thinks  Clinton's plan is likely to be enacted as she presents it is living in a fantasy world.

    Parent
    It isn't triangulation (none / 0) (#47)
    by BevD on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:20:22 PM EST
    it is compromise, which is the true genius of the American political system.  Unfortunately, most people misunderstand  compromise as a true, political system, they do not understand that in politics, compromise is the solution, not the problem and it is not inherently negative.  To try and circumvent the connotation of selling out one's principles, they turn to words such as "triangulation" when compromise is the correct description of the process.

    Both compromise and triangulation are "the art of the deal", an attempt to satisfy all parties by giving each party something, instead of  "winner take all" in which one party walks away from the table feeling that he has been had or gotten the raw end of the deal.  In a system such as ours, which is adversarial by nature, each party is able to give something up in order to gain something.

    Obama's health plan isn't a compromise, it is a hand out to the insurance companies who stand to gain while the workers lose.  He's doing nothing more than kicking the can up the road, instead of proposing a viable solution.  By not mandating an insurance purchase by workers, the risk is limited to those who need insurance, which actually keeps premiums high.  By spreading the risk among all workers it first conditions workers and employers to accept the fact that when national health care is enacted, all people will pay something just as they do with the national pension system - FICA, it secondly spreads the risk among a large pool of contributors and thirdly it allows insurance companies a profit through volume.

    His proposal to mandate health care for children, is silly.  Unless he attaches their babysitting money and allowances there is no way to enforce that mandate without attaching parents' wages.  Little children can't purchase insurance, how would he propose that they do?  Why no one has asked him that question is a mystery to me.  It sounds nice, but it just isn't practicable, just as his promise to increase the salaries of teachers is ridiculous.  The Federal government doesn't control the school systems in this country, local school districts do and that is negotiated and contractual and dependent on the tax  base, not mandated by the federal government.

    Why no one in the press has found it necessary to question how he would accomplish these promises is a shame because people cannot make informed decisions about the candidates.

    you think (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:29:14 PM EST
    I did not praise Obama on that? Shows how little you know. Let me warn everyone one last time - do not attack me or the site.

    No exceptions. Alec, your comment is deleted.

    Stating that you have a bias... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Alec82 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:40:33 PM EST
    ...is not an attack.  But I will repeated the substance of my comment here, without the "attack" on you:

     Triangulation is trying to have it both ways, and ending up in the center or more likely center right.  See, for example, Senator Clinton on the issue of drivers licenses for illegal immigrants.

     More importantly, triangulation does not factor at all in the health care policy differences, because neither position is the so-called "progressive" solution: single payer.  It is only because Senator Clinton and her supporters say her position is the most progressive that it is reported as being the most progressive.  Her plan, after all, was pursued by Governor Romney in Massachusetts. Supporters of Clinton do not get to unilaterally deem her position on health care as the "progressive" position, because it isn't, apart from her declaration that it is.

    Parent

    No, triangulation (none / 0) (#67)
    by BevD on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:24:32 PM EST
    is allowing everyone to walk away from the table with something - it is compromise and the only way government can work.

    Clinton's program is the only progressive program because it is the only program that puts us on the path to universal single payer health care.

    Parent

    Still not clear to me (none / 0) (#64)
    by rilkefan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:11:29 PM EST
    The link Klein gives is internally contradictory.  BTD's original interpretation might well be correct.