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Richard Cohen Needs To Stop Digging

Richard Cohen is especially silly today. His entire column is ridiculous, but this is the best (as in worst) part:

I, too, have taken my shots at Clinton. I have done so not because of any sexism but for reasons having to do with character.

Yes we remember Dick. Bob Somerby told us about it:

[RICHARD] COHEN (2/5/08): [. . . [I]n 2005, [Clinton] co-sponsored a bill that would make flag-burning illegal. . . . I was not alone in suggesting that on the flag issue, Clinton was readying herself for a presidential race and trying to blunt her image as a harridan of the political left.

. . . Look, I know what Obama was doing when he refused to confront his minister about the latter's embrace of Louis Farrakhan. . . . He will not get my Profiles in Courage award for this, but the rest of his record overwhelms this one chintzy act. Not so with Clinton. In the first place, you don't get to pander with the First Amendment. It is just too important, too central, not merely an amendment but a commandment: Thou Shalt Not Abridge Speech.

In his column the next week, the following correction:

COHEN (2/12/08): My Feb. 5 column was critical of Hillary Clinton for supporting a bill to make flag burning illegal. I have since learned from a reader that Barack Obama also supported that bill.

Here's my advice for Richard Cohen, a man who has his own character issues regarding sexual harassment should stop digging.

Oh BTW, here another beaut from Cohen's column:

That she deserves to lose is a widely accepted opinion, strongly held by women as well as men, which, you would think, should mute the growing chorus that Clinton is the victim of vicious misogyny.

Wow! Richard Cohen knows some women that hate Hillary Clinton. I am shocked. The fact that women have voted overwhelmingly in favor of Hillary Clinton in this election is meaningless. Who cares about voters anyway? But in the Beltway, what matters is the "widely accepted opinion[s]" of Chris Matthews, Tim Russert, Richard Cohen and Maureen Dowd.

Let's put it bluntly, Richard Cohen is a pig. And not a bright one.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only.

Comments closed

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    Oh, ok, I just posted this (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:19:00 AM EST
    in the other post but I will throw it up again, are liberal elite men just sexist?  In OR SUSA BO's lead is entirely dependent among men by a 28 point margin.  Men in WI were largely the result of BO's win there.  I believe he won the white male vote in MA, a state he basically only won the vote in the most elite areas.  So, perhaps elite liberals, particularly the men, are sexist.  This would fit in well with Cohen's absurd column.

    I'm not really arguing this, though one could. (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:27 AM EST
    My point is only that for all the talk of Hill's voters being racist, "low-info", white trash, one could easily argue that BO's white elite liberal following is sexist.

    Parent
    You could certainly argue that (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:27:39 AM EST
    but that is not a smart move politically for Hillary.

    Why voters vote for whom they vote for her is not always discernible. But certainly if someone wanted to be provocative. a headline could be written tonight "Racists won in Kentucky, Sexists Win In Oregon."

    But Dems need to think about winning, not about writing headlines.


    Parent

    Which is why she has never said it. She knows (5.00 / 12) (#20)
    by leis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:42 AM EST
    she is going to need those voters to help her win the WH.  Insulting them, even if it is true, is not the way to win votes.  Some others could probably take a lesson.

    Parent
    Now YOU got my point (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:34:54 AM EST
    Thank you.

    Parent
    Not the point, and headline not my concern. (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:47 AM EST
    I'm saying for all the talk of racist for Hillary, you can look at election polling and results and make a case of sexist for Obama.  It's interesting.  Cohen's piece would fit into such a narative.  Again, not an argument I am making or not making.  Just an observation.

    Parent
    I know it is not your point (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:34:28 AM EST
    But it is a natural extension of your point.

    I pre-addressed it.

    Parent

    its bizarre (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:30:53 AM EST
    but as pig Cohen points out it is not limited to men.
    I have a dear female friend.  very smart, one of the more astute (I thought) political observers I counted among my friends and she has this irrational hatred of Hillary.
    we cant talk about it.  she signs her emails like this:

    peace, luv & Obama,
    lh

    it drives me absolutely crazy.

    Parent

    That doesn't conflict with my point. (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:33:10 AM EST
    Heh (5.00 / 9) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:33:37 AM EST
    She signs her e-mails that way? Wow. That is embarrassing. I think she'll be embarrassed about that at some point in the future.

    Parent
    at some point? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:20 AM EST
    she is older than me.  

    Parent
    What? (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:48:25 AM EST
    Older people can not feel embarrassment?

    Parent
    I thought you assumed she was (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:59:25 AM EST
    "young"
    even that would be easier to deal with.
    I hope she someday realizes how silly that looks but I dont see when or how it happens.
    they seem totally insulated from the world sometimes.

    Parent
    another thing though (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:52 AM EST
    thats odd.
    this person has been the one of my friends who in the past has been even more cynical than me (that is saying a lot) when it comes to buying the MSM meme of the week.
    now she seems to live by it.
    its surreal.

    Parent
    Yeah, like the girl I went to junior high with (5.00 / 8) (#31)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:37:44 AM EST
    who constantly wore one white glove because she was so in love with Michael Jackson.

    Oh, the pictures we laugh about now...

    Parent

    Peace, luv and Obama? (5.00 / 7) (#30)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:28 AM EST
    OMG.

    Obama is just a brand to these people.

    Parent

    I know (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:56 AM EST
    it would be less troublesome if I had not looked up to this person and thought her much smarter than this.
    it is honestly one of the things that has made me accept that this whole thing (nomination) is starting to be rather inevitable.


    Parent
    Inevitable (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:49:03 AM EST
    I hear you.  They're going to shove Barack Obama down our throats in spite of overwhelming evidence that he is flawed beyond redemption.

    I feel like Pauline...tied to the railroad track and hearing the train.

    Parent

    No, he's MORE than a Brand. (5.00 / 5) (#49)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:44:14 AM EST
    He's Teh Future!  Utopia!  Camelot!  Shangri La!
    - for certain people.  You either believe it or not.  It's not facts, it's fatih.

    Parent
    Really, it's celebrity worship (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by abfabdem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:48:40 AM EST
    It has permeated our culture and now it is permeating our politics.  Also reminds me of all the suburban kids here in our affluent community who dress like they are from the 'hood.  It gives them a "cool" identity.

    Parent
    you are so right (none / 0) (#246)
    by irene adler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:33:32 AM EST
    Permeating and then some.

    I had a depressing but funny thing happen yesterday in the checkout line. Our supermarket chain has little LCDs mounted at the cash register, to 'entertain and inform' you [meaning... sell you stuff] while waiting in line.

    Instead of watching, I was organizing the next 5 things I had to do, when I heard a gushing voiceover say, "...and that was Cate Blanchett. She's not just an Academy Award winner, she's famous."

    I just burst out laughing! Why of course! What's being an accomplished actor at the top of your game compared to being famous? That's when I realized I spend too much time paying attention to politics because I immediately related that sentiment to campaign reporting. I have to say, I don't see much of a distinction anymore between supermarket celebrity media and so called serious political media.

    Parent

    A property, a client and a brand, (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by votus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:57 AM EST
    according to that Atlantic article "The Amazing Money Machine" in which we are introduced to the cartel of Silicon Valley king makers behind the real Obama campaign.

    Parent
    Wait a second (none / 0) (#82)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:59:00 AM EST
    I thought he was our messiah?

    Now he's simply a brand to us?

    It's hard to follow the various disparagements.

    Parent

    If you support him (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:08:43 AM EST
    on the facts, not faith then you have little to worry about.  Obviously different people have different priorities.

    But Obama's emotional rhetoric has always attracted those who want to believe and to be a part of something bigger and better and most of all, more powerful than themselves.  Human nature.  Can't do a thing about it.  Some people just want to be loyal followers because it makes them feel good.

    Parent

    Whereas (1.00 / 2) (#119)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:13:08 AM EST
    your support of Hillary is based on empirical evidence?  Right.  

    You BELIEVE that Hillary will be a great President because you BELIEVE that she has the qualities to be a good President, qualities that cannot be measured until she were actually President.

    Every election is based on subjective beliefs.

    Parent

    Is it all that hard (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:26:23 AM EST
    to see that some people just wanna feel good and really like people who make them feel good?  Boring old issues and substance doesn't do that.   Uplifting emotional rhetoric does.

    Many a voter makes their decision on who they are "more comfortable" with.  Get'em happy, keep'em happy and you can get their votes.

    Insulting voters tends NOT to make them happy.

    Parent

    Stereotypes are stereotypes (none / 0) (#200)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:47:36 AM EST
    How many Hillary supporters support her because she uplifts them because she is a woman?  

    I don't have a problem with that at all.  But it is silly to suggest that millions of supporters all operate on largely the same motivations.

    My support of Obama is coldly calculating.  He can be our FDR, and with the likely bloodbath in the Fall he may have an FDR like mandate.

    Parent

    There is nothing even mildly like FDR in (5.00 / 6) (#242)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:05:03 AM EST
    Barack Obama.  Obama lacks political courage.  

    Parent
    Bloodbath, maybe (none / 0) (#238)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:00:45 AM EST
    but in that scenario it's "President McCain".

    Parent
    "I create feelings in others... (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:26 AM EST
    "I create feelings in others that they themselves don't understand."

    Lightning McQueen, Cars.

    The person/car he is saying this to (it's meant as a come on) looks at him like he is spouting gibberish or simply nuts.  

    Parent

    Lots of folks were in love with Dubya a few years (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Angel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:38 AM EST
    ago.....  This love of Obama, too, shall pass.

    Parent
    "This Too Shall Pass" (5.00 / 4) (#60)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:51:18 AM EST
    Yeah...well let's hope it passes before he's had four (or worse, eight) years to continue the dismantling of the United States.

    Another amateur in the White House is the last thing we need.

    Parent

    IF he gets 4 (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:55:53 AM EST
    It's probably a safe bet to think he won't get 8. Democrats only get one chance to prove themselves in that office.

    Which, is also why I don't approve of Hillary taking second place on a ticket where Obama is the top.

    Parent

    I would be described as liberal elite male, (5.00 / 8) (#38)
    by SeaMBA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:57 AM EST
    at least by most demographics (excpet salary -- too many years as an entrepreneur) and I am not voting for Obama, ever.  I will be writing in Clinton if necessary.

    I think the problem with people like Cohen is that they are not risk takers.  They only say what they feel it is safe to say.  Which would also explain the past 8 years of Bush.

    Strength of character is why I am for Clinton. I may not always agree with her, but I trust her to be strong in the face of unpopular opinions.  That is the type of leader we need.  

    Parent

    Mhmm, yes. That's a good argument. (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:45 AM EST
    Are elite white liberal men risk averse?

    Parent
    Some of them don't understand (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:43:25 AM EST
    That, in fact, Obama is the bigger risk. By far.

    Parent
    Excuse me (5.00 / 5) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:43:46 AM EST
    That is not Cohen's problem. they go well beyond that.

    Parent
    In addition, I think there's a trust issue.... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:52:51 AM EST
    consider, many in this demographic may have had some bad experiences w/women (i.e. separations, divorces, etc.) As we all know, bad relationships breed negative feelings and foster insecurities.  Could be these guys are transferring those feelings of distrust to Hillary.  Remember, 50% of marriages in this country end in divorce.  That demo cuts across a whole slew of other demos in this primary.

    Parent
    Women taking what (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:01:48 AM EST
    is rightfully men's?

    It's a common, common narrative.  As economic instability increases, people tend to circle the wagons and protect their own....tribal identity.  They resent competition from The Others - immigrants, women, other ethnic, religious or political groups.

    It's a whole lot easier to unite diverse groups when the economy is good to as many people as possible.  

    Parent

    Or, that tried and true (none / 0) (#81)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:58:57 AM EST
    "mother" issue. Plenty of people blame their mother's for every single thing they lack, all adversity, and missing pieces in their character.

    Parent
    Liberal men (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:07:17 AM EST
    are probably no more sexist than any other category, but it's just a lot more surprising when they are sexist.

    I have thought a lot about this issue too though, and have asked myself the same question.  I've gone back and thought about the men I've known and been involved with over the years, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I've been treated better by more moderate men, on the whole.

    Parent

    I could build the case that they (5.00 / 0) (#139)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:19:03 AM EST
    are indeed more sexist, and I am not at all surprised.

    Parent
    I'd concur. (none / 0) (#190)
    by Mari on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:45:01 AM EST
    Sometimes liberal men are the worst. Better an honorable moderate republican man.

    Parent
    Independent (none / 0) (#206)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:49:49 AM EST
    I've made a lot of mistakes with men.  But I think I've finally learned my lessons.  The love of my life, the most wonderful man I've ever known (except my dad), is an Independent (who changed his registration to Dem in PA to vote for Hillary but will soon change it back to Independent).  :)

    Parent
    ::blinks:: (5.00 / 12) (#4)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:19:35 AM EST
    Did they really let him publish this:

    That she deserves to lose is a widely accepted opinion, strongly held by women as well as men, which, you would think, should mute the growing chorus that Clinton is the victim of vicious misogyny.
    ??????

    It occurs to me that this is an opinion shared by most of the misogynist media. He knows that MoDo hates Hillary, and so does he, so obviously theirs is a widely held belief!

    What Cohen fails to appreciate (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:43 AM EST
    is that some people think she deserves to lose because they are misogynists.

    How do these non-thinking word-salad-producing morons get these jobs?

    Parent

    I especially liked this (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by pie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:44:33 AM EST
    defense of Cohen's behavior by one of his friends:

    Sources close to Mr. Cohen and Ms. Spurgeon said neither is particularly pleased with the outcome. Mr. Cohen feels he has been the victim of a witch-hunt atmosphere. "It's not like he groped someone," said Mr. Auletta. "He's being accused of saying things that are insensitive. Well, grow up.... This is Dick Cohen being Dick Cohen, and politically correct people being wusses."

    nice, huh?

    Parent

    So he does recognize he is a Dick (5.00 / 8) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:46:36 AM EST
    I stand corrected.

    Ken Auletta obviously is also a pig.

    Parent

    I'll remind everyone (5.00 / 7) (#74)
    by pie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:56:19 AM EST
    that this so-called media, including Dick Cohen, have been propping Chimpy up for most of the eight years he's been in office and getting skewered for it by the left blogosphere.

    Their opinions are't worth the paper they're printed on.

    Clueless, overpaid hacks with few morals and  questionable judgment, residing safely in their little bubble.

    Parent

    I love it (5.00 / 5) (#157)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:25:55 AM EST
    when unacceptable behavior is defended as ingrained and therefore acceptable.

    "Well, grow up.... This is Dick Cohen being Dick Cohen"

    Is that like saying set him free, it was just Charles Manson being Charles Manson

    Parent

    Cohen obviously didn't see (5.00 / 6) (#50)
    by abfabdem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:44:19 AM EST
    the full page ad from WomenPac in the NYTimes today touting how women support Hillary big-time.  It rocks!

    Parent
    That Is A Beautiful Ad n/t (none / 0) (#61)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:52:08 AM EST
    Is that ad online anywhere? (none / 0) (#103)
    by gmo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:06:44 AM EST
    Didn't see it in the online version of NYT (the only way I subscribe).

    Parent
    Taylor Marsh Had A Post On The Ad (none / 0) (#141)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:19:56 AM EST
    a couple of days ago. If you go to her site and go back a few days, I'm sure you can find it.

    Parent
    If Nytimes could publish (none / 0) (#197)
    by Serene1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:46:03 AM EST
    MoDo's rant on how Obama should punish Hillary then publishing Cohen's sexist piece should be a given. Compared to MoDo's various rants his are at least more milder though more hypocritical.

    Parent
    Wow. That link to Cohen's behavior (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:20:02 AM EST
    toward the young woman reporter is really revealing.  "Inappropriate"?  Nope, a classic case of a hostile environment, at the least -- and that is sexual harassment.  A pig, he is -- and this explains some of the axe against strong women that he is so incessantly grinding.  

    He learned from a reader Obama supported (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by leis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:53 AM EST
    the same bill? Maybe he should of checked that little nugget out before writing his column.  

       Hilarious, laugh out loud funny.
         

    Can't Have FACTS Stand In The Way (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:04 AM EST
    The only thing necessary is to have a biased opinion and try to spin information to substantiate that opinion. Research has become so yesterday.

    Thank gawd there are indications that a large portion of  the American public is tired of listening to these blubbering idiots.

    Parent

    Kinda Makes You Wonder (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:40 AM EST
    if he either knew to begin with or deliberately did not bother to check Obama's support .  Retractions never get as much attention as scurrilous accusations.

    Parent
    That told me about journalism today (5.00 / 5) (#126)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:15:53 AM EST
    more than anything, when first I read that.

    First, do no research but just go with something somebody told you.  Then, when somebody tells you it's wrong, still do no research but just go with what somebody tells you again.

    Murrow, Cronkite, et al., are turning over in their graves.

    Parent

    IMO Relatively Little Journalism Is Being (5.00 / 2) (#223)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:55:06 AM EST
    practiced today. True journalists have become an endangered species.

    Parent
    They get information (none / 0) (#243)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:05:42 AM EST
    they choose what to ignore.

    Interesting research given to Richard Cohen on Obama, but if Cohen is part of the effort to get Obama on the ticket as the weaker candidate, it stands to reason he would ignore anything to thwart the effort.


    Parent

    Not surprising. (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:26:21 AM EST
    This is the out of touch beltway media. What oh what will they do when Obama loses the general election? I imagine once they see his numbers ge numbers tanking they'll pretend they never supported him.

    They will be "disturbed" (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:34 AM EST
    by his previously "unknown" connections to Rezko and Ayers. They will shake their hands sadly and re-profess their undying love for McCain.

    And heaven forbid there is video of the Senator and/or his wife sitting in church during a particularly inflammatory Wright sermon.

    Parent

    "out of touch beltway media" (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:16:57 AM EST
    this may be a bit ot but I watched a thing about Roosevelt on PBS last night.
    they talked a lot about how much the press was "in the tank for him".  
    but it was interesting on many level within the context of this election.
    Roosevelt had an Obama like way of inspiring people and apparently about half the country hated him and half the country idolized (literally) him.
    he was also called an elitist.
    I kept trying to see Obama in the Roosevelt role.
    it didnt work.  he talks the talk but I need to see him walk the walk before I will believe.


    Parent
    HRC is Roosevelt (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:22:28 AM EST
    but we don't idolize her. We just want her to be President so she can roll up her sleeves and get to work fixing the godawful mess created by BushCheney.

    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#156)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:25:40 AM EST
    but Obama wants to be.  and the media wants him to be.
    to go with your analogy, half of what Roosevelt got done would never have been possible without the press fully in his pocket.
    that, at least, would never ever be possible with Hillary.
    for example, can you imagine the press keeping the secret of Hillary being handicapped?
    now try it with Obama.


    Parent
    That (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:28:46 AM EST
    was then. There's no way Obama is going to continue to get that treatment. The GOP is going to make sure of it. Right wing radio can craft and test narratives to see what is most effective. Then they throw them into the MSM which caves because they always cave to the GOP for fear of being the "liberal media". Whatever.

    Parent
    I dont know (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:36:29 AM EST
    I was surprised how much resistance there was to Roosevelt from that eras equivalent of talk radio.
    a lot of very powerful people, powerful RICH people mostly but not exclusively, absolutely hated him.
    he was able to go directly to the people.  it could be the only good thing about Obamas hallelujah chorus.
    FYI
    this is only an attempt to see a glass half full.
    I am not counting on any on this.
    and frankly his hallelujah chorus still mostly scares the crap out of me.


    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 2) (#213)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:52:03 AM EST
    the key is going directly to the people which Obama is not doing. He is relying way too much on the media. Hillary is more like FDR in this respect.

    Parent
    HRC is not in FDR's (5.00 / 1) (#241)
    by brodie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:03:47 AM EST
    position of being able to give frequent fireside chats which the radio networks were obliged to carry in full and unfiltered.  The only way she can come close here is with cable interviews, which might get edited or run days later, and paid ads and local tv interviews.

    Obama gets such a free media pass that they now carry his speeches as they do Junior's, breaking into regular programming at times like he's about to deliver the Sermon on the Mount.

    I've been surprised the MCM hasn't turned a little more against him by now, but perhaps they're waiting until the nom is securely in hand and the Wicked Witch is good and officially dead.

    Parent

    The media does not want him to be FDR. (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:39:02 AM EST
    All they want is for Obama to somehow limp to the finish line so they can turn on him and start canonizing McMaverick and his loony tunes VP, Mike Hackabee.

    If the media has their way, there will never be another Democratic President. They make so much money under Republicans, you know.

    Parent

    sad (none / 0) (#229)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:56:56 AM EST
    but probably true.

    Parent
    Roosevelt (5.00 / 3) (#214)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:52:29 AM EST
    was a partisan warrior.  

    After the first 100 days the GOP dug in and fought him tooth and nail. The deeply conservative Supreme Court gleefully knocked down much of his depression fighting legislation. That's what brought on the court packing controversy in his contentious second term. He lost the battle to expand the court but won the war with the court, something careless historians miss.  The court got the message and from then on upheld his programs against court challenges and that was before retirements gave him the opportunity to make his own appointments.

    He was deeply hated in some quarters but MOST of the people loved him. The was no half this and half that. remember that the American people elected him four times, all landslides. When my mother or father spoke the word Roosevelt is was with absolute reverence.

    People had pictures of Roosevelt hanging in their homes. Hell, I have a picture of him hanging in my den.

    When I was a kid feelings about FDR ran very high and continued right up to my early adult years.  People who were well to do hated him.  Everyone else loved him.

    Parent

    No, no, no. Roosevelt was extremely polarizing. (none / 0) (#147)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:22:04 AM EST
    Nothing like Obama.  Obama's schtick is being the exact opposite.

    Parent
    They will blame Hillary and (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by zfran on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:48:09 AM EST
    how she "sullied" him during the campaign, not giving him enough time to run in the GE. No taking responsibility, no seeing the real truths about the candidate, no grown-ups!!

    Parent
    Abd before anyone corrects me (5.00 / 7) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:59 AM EST
    I know he does not go by Dick. But that is what I called him.

    If anyone deserves that name...;-) (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:10 AM EST
    if the shoe fits (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:17 AM EST
    Some simply don't deserve to be called Richard. (none / 0) (#189)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:44:56 AM EST
    Shocking to me (5.00 / 12) (#14)
    by Lil on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:29:04 AM EST
    that it is not widely recognized that Obama has only won about HALF the votes...what does that mean?  Oh yeah, Clinton has won the other HALF!

    My brother is convinced (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:30:25 AM EST
    she is disingenuous. He can't tell you why, of course - it's just the way she talks.

    Uh-huh.

    Of course, he is a prime target for Obama. 39, male, web developer, sexist and cynical, lives in San Francisco.

    His girlfriend likes Hillary. :-)

    as a long time observer (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:33:58 AM EST
    of males of that age group I believe there is a very strong vein of fear of the female, particularly strong unapologetic females, that runs through almost all of them.
    dont ask me why.  but I see it.

    Parent
    I agree. (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:19 AM EST
    I really don't know how to explain it.

    Parent
    I agree, and I don't understand where (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:39:27 AM EST
    it comes from.  Maybe they didn't get enough dates in high school?

    Parent
    Heh. (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:17 AM EST
    Certainly true of my brother. ;-)

    Parent
    The somatic narcissist variety.. (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:28:42 AM EST
    that have derooted problems with Mommy. Obama is probably in that camp as well. Funny thing is that Dubya, for all his faults, probably has the most healthy relationship with women in his life, compared to previous Presidents.

    Parent
    He is so insecure (none / 0) (#167)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:30:38 AM EST
    that he treats men just as badly as he does women.

    He's an equal opportunity @ssh@le. ;-)

    Parent

    Proving (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:17:27 AM EST
    once again that the girlfriend/wife is indeed the better half.

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#145)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:20:58 AM EST
    I love my brother but...at least his GF can say why she supports HRC and why she doesn't trust Obama. ;-)

    Parent
    That fatigue has already set in (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:25:38 AM EST
    The youth vote was barely measurable in PA.

    The grand leader himself is showing campaign fatigue, and his followers are quick to pick up on his mood. They do what he does, they feel what he feels :)

    Parent

    I don't know (5.00 / 6) (#173)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:33:44 AM EST
    but anyone who comes on this board with a name of "Blue Stained Dress" is only looking for trouble.

    Parent
    I plan (5.00 / 3) (#184)
    by Nadai on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:40:40 AM EST
    to offer him all the respect he deserves.

    Parent
    Uh huh (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by Nadai on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:45:33 AM EST
    You keep thinking that.

    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:53:06 AM EST
    Nadai was being sarcastic...

    Parent
    See, this is why (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:46:00 AM EST
    I dropped out of the Democratic Party.  He isn't my "presumptive nominee".  If Hillary isn't in the race, I'll look at all of the other candidates and choose one to vote for.  You need to "respect" that. (My vote is not going to Obama, but trust me, dear heart, I'll vote.)

    Parent
    It really hurts when you say I was never a (5.00 / 1) (#233)
    by leis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:58:42 AM EST
    Democrat anyway.  That's Democrat with a capital D.  I don't know why you wouldn't have spelled it with a  capital, it's obvious your caps lock key works.

    Parent
    Amen (none / 0) (#181)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:39:22 AM EST
    I looked at that user name and thought "Troll!"  Two comments so far.

    Can you say "flash in the pan"?  I knew you could.

    Parent

    Question is (5.00 / 3) (#211)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:51:17 AM EST
    are these trolls really Obama supporters or are they Republicans stirring the pot? Then I see over 2000 venomous posts at a HuffPo article, and the answer is right there. Obama's "be nice" message isn't working, but the entertainment is great.

    Parent
    These trolls (5.00 / 4) (#221)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:54:16 AM EST
    are promoting Obama's true message.

    "Hillary sucks; vote for me. I am the Way, the Truth and the Light."

    Everything he says and does proclaims this message.

    Unity was never in it.

    Parent

    Site abuse: Blue Stained Dress (5.00 / 4) (#231)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    There's a ... (5.00 / 2) (#240)
    by Robot Porter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:03:20 AM EST
    difference!?!

    Parent
    Hm (none / 0) (#230)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:57:12 AM EST
    I figure these trolls have to be Republican operatives.  What Obama supporter in their right mind would support their candidate by heading off to insult/demonize/inflame Clinton supporters on neutral/Clinton-leaning blogs? It's entirely counterproductive to trying to win the GE.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#205)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:48:22 AM EST
    Yawn (none / 0) (#225)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:55:44 AM EST
    I don't respond to trolls except to yawn.

    You've written here only today and you have a severely divisive name.  You're a troll.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 9) (#28)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:17 AM EST
    He makes Andrew Sullivan look practically genteel:

    I know the dangers of provoking the wave of victimhood that Clinton will invoke if anyone dares to point out that she has lost. But at some point the sheer classless, graceless sore-loser tackiness of the couple requires an end to the enabling.

    Obama, one fears, is too much of a gentleman. You can't always maintain class with people who have none.




    Andrew "Bell Curve" (5.00 / 20) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:48 AM EST
    "Fatal Attraction" Fifth Column" Sullivan knows from classless and graceless.

    Whatever happens from here on out, I promise you this, I will spend all summer criticizing any and all bloggers who praise the racist, sexist, McCarthyistic Andrew Sullivan.

    Un-rehabilitating that piece of crap will be my mission for the summer.

    Parent

    pttf (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:24 AM EST
    thanks I needed that

    Parent
    I love that idea! (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:36 AM EST
    Can't stand him, never could.

    Parent
    Heart (5.00 / 5) (#71)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:55:24 AM EST
    I love your mission and wish you absolute, unqualified success.

    Parent
    Andrew Sullivan sez (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by lilburro on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:15:34 AM EST
    "The notion that there might be resilient ethnic differences in intelligence is not, we believe, an inherently racist belief."

    FAIR on the Bell Curve

    I'm sure he and Richard Cohen could have wonderful conversations.

    Standing by the Bell Curve is pretty awful in my book.

    Parent

    I love how these elitists (5.00 / 7) (#40)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:39:45 AM EST
    think saying someone is low-class (or has no class) is the ultimate insult.

    Parent
    And as always (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:15:13 AM EST
    they can't really articulate what they label as classless.

    Aside from the standard Village CDS is their childish reaction to the fact that Hillary has exuded class from every pore and has withstood the over the top onslaught with dignity and grace. Not so her opponent whose campaign in part is one long oversensitive whine.

    And as for this "... the rest of his record overwhelms this one chintzy act."

    What record?  Would that be voting for the Cheney Energy Bill, voting against an Iraq War funding amendment that required troop withdrawal or voting for the Bankruptcy bill.  And while we're talking about character how about Obama's lie that he got a nuclear regulatory bill passed.

    That Hillary just could pull off knocking out the Village elite's chosen one must be driving them crazy.

    Parent

    How could Cohen recognize "class"? (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:47:28 AM EST
    I've said it before, I'll say it again: the only people who ever talk about "class" are those without any.

    Parent
    Too much of a gentleman? (5.00 / 5) (#80)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:58:29 AM EST
    Ah, yes, stealthily (well, not so stealthily after all) flipping the bird at Hillary Clinton during a campaign speech is just so chivalrous.

    Parent
    Now, now (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by cmugirl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:07:21 AM EST
    My Obama-supporting co-worker laughed at me and said that had been disproven many times over - everybody knew that.

    I didn't want to start an argument, so I let it go.

    Parent

    I figure the jury is (none / 0) (#172)
    by zfran on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:32:12 AM EST
    still out on "the finger" and so, for now, my retort is "I don't know" if it's yes or no. Maybe someday he'll update his memoirs and he'll tell us. lol

    Parent
    Some of us are not "lol" about it. n/t (5.00 / 3) (#179)
    by samanthasmom on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:38:56 AM EST
    I think the "dirt on my shoulder" (5.00 / 3) (#201)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:47:49 AM EST
    snub is not in dispute.  How do you explain away that?  I mean, is Obama six years old?  He's brushing off a United States senator like she's dirt?  And scraping her off his shoe?

    Classy!

    Parent

    Y'all sure do (none / 0) (#152)
    by Binx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:23:42 AM EST
    ...cling to the tiniest mis-perceived slight --as evidenced by the perpetuation of the "Obama flipped her off" story. Your case is stronger when you just stick to the "only she can win the General Election" argument. At least that is simply a matter of opinion.

    Parent
    The people sitting behind him (5.00 / 4) (#162)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:27:59 AM EST
    and saw him do it must have also "mis-perceived" based on their reaction.

    Just another example of a free pass by the MSM.

    Parent

    There's video (none / 0) (#182)
    by Binx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:39:47 AM EST
    I saw him too -- I saw him scratch his face with his middle finger. Whether you believe it or not it makes no sense to believe he was directing an obscene gesture in some way toward Clinton.

    Parent
    I saw it too (5.00 / 2) (#212)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:51:36 AM EST
    and I know what I saw.

    Parent
    Blind devotion (5.00 / 2) (#222)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:54:27 AM EST
    how sweet.

    Parent
    Grrr... (5.00 / 4) (#237)
    by huzzlewhat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:59:59 AM EST
    What's so infuriating about comments like this is that I don't recall seeing Sen. Clinton claim to be a victim at any point in the campaign. She's just soldiering on, talking the issues, ignoring the insults that are hurled at her -- people like Sullivan are inventing behavior that she hasn't exhibited, and then deriding her for it. It's so frustrating.

    Parent
    Now, we must come together (5.00 / 6) (#52)
    by Sunshine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:45:53 AM EST
    Well you go on and come together, it's a little late for us....   After all the e-mails that women sent to NBC, Chris Matthews, Tim Russert, Richard Cohen, Keith Olbermann, Jack Cafferty and Maureen Dowd now they want to say we will look into sexism and we must come together, well you go ahead and do your come togethering and we will react the same way you reacted to our pleas to stop the sexism...  I'm sure Maureen feels that she has beat the odds and has been accepted into the good ole guys group.... Quite frankley, I don't care if Obama gets elected or not....


    the thing is (5.00 / 13) (#68)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:33 AM EST
    If ONCE Obama had stood up against this.  If ONCE he had taken a stand or made a statement against the sexist dribble coming out of their mouths, we would not have much ground to stand on.  I mean, sure, we could find other reasons to hate him, but this would not be one of them because he would be practicing what he preaches.

    But, he hasn't, so we can add this to the list.  He stood by idly because it benefitted him.  And now that his own wife is getting a taste of it, I see he is very, very annoyed.

    Welcome to the big leagues.  Might want to man up before you try to run the bases.

    Parent

    You're correct, (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by pie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:31 AM EST
    sweetie.  ;)

    Parent
    He cannot (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:19 AM EST
    cause it would involve courage.  

    Parent
    He stayed silent when Chelsea (5.00 / 7) (#95)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:02:57 AM EST
    was the target, as well.

    Parent
    If I marry one of his daughters (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:13:35 AM EST
    THEN would he defend me?

    Does a woman need to be related before he'll step up for her?

    Parent

    And might want to (none / 0) (#203)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:48:12 AM EST
    have done something before now about all those abusive supporters. Including the miserably dysfunctional press corpse. (And yes I spelled it the way I meant it.)

    Wanna "make nice" now?

    Carole King/It's Too Late Baby Now
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=dC9z50xkUeQ

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:49:32 AM EST
    Worlds will collide. Let's see what happens.

    Sometimes those worlds dont mesh too well (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by athyrio on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:30:48 AM EST
    as THE DEFECTIONS ARE BEGINNING... FIRST FERRARO.. NOW ED KOCH..ED says 20+ in a racist church and Ayers?? He will vote for McCain...WOW...

    Parent
    The media is still trying (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:50:50 AM EST
    to create its own reality.

    No, they create/influence (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:56:29 AM EST
    our reality as well.  This I resent.

    Parent
    Seems that (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by pie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:59:22 AM EST
    they're not getting away with it this time, however.  People are't buying the product that's being so carefully marketed.

    Parent
    Cohen's talking point on flag burning (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:52:24 AM EST
    Appears to have come from Clinton hating blogs anyway.

    I just wanted to point that out.

    The very idea that Clinton pandered on the flag burning issue has been around for a long time and it was even wrong then back when it wasn't a pathway to prove CDS/sexism.

    Back when it was merely another example of bloggers being idiots.


    Yes, time to stop digging (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:52:36 AM EST
    But they won't.  They've been waiting 4 months to write/broadcast their real 'No One Mourns The Wicked Hillary post-mortem' stories.  They will be gleefully doing so until July.

    I honestly don't think there is anything Obama can do to get women back. Way too late.

    He could (5.00 / 5) (#113)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:09:37 AM EST
    Address the fact that the media has driven his candidacy and that he's "won" based on the stupid and disproportionate allotments of caucus states.  

    He could then concede, take a VP spot, lose some of his overwhelming arrogance, rebuild some of the bridges he and his supporters (Cohen) have burned with women and other shunned Democrats, and run in 2016.

    As Pat Buchanan (whom I dislike, but find prescient at times) has said, "if the Democratic race were run like the Republican race, he'd have been crushed" (via Ohio/Penn/CA, etc.).  (Gee, if Republicans know how to do anything, they know how to run elections!  Democrats in contrast are inept at this art!) And in states Democrats need to win, he has been crushed.  Therefore his concession would be justified.

    But with the help of people like Cohen whistling past the graveyard on how women feel about this election, he'll go the way of the rest of the candidates who've won the most delegates and lost the popular vote (as may well be after Puerto Rico).  He'll lose the GE, maybe in a landslide.

    Parent

    If they had any brains (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:13:03 AM EST
    they would have sat him down after super tuesday and crafted a joint ticket, Hillary/Obama, then the Dems would have had 16 years.  But no, the misogyny got in the way.  

    Parent
    The misogyny and the (5.00 / 5) (#142)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:19:58 AM EST
    awful notion (to them) that Clintons can win the presidency and the Dean/Kerry/Kennedy/et al. can't.

    Parent
    That's what I was saying (none / 0) (#159)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:26:50 AM EST
    the next morning.

    My friend even had a name for it: Clobama!

    It may still happen no matter what Obama says tonight...

    Parent

    I think tonight's (5.00 / 4) (#170)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:31:20 AM EST
    "mission accomplished" speech will be the beginning of the end for Obama.

    Parent
    I hope so. (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:45:31 AM EST
    This is a truly boneheaded political move, just like almost every move he's made towards everyone who doesn't jump on his bandwagon.

    I knew he'd go ahead with this alienating and divisive idea. I knew he wouldn't realize how incredibly insulting it was towards 17 million people who voted for his opponent.

    It's okay, he doesn't need those 17 million votes. He also doesn't need Florida or Michigan. He has Oregon, you know!

    Parent

    Teresa, How Can You Say This? (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:53:02 AM EST
    Look at the trad media reports.  The networks are standing by with the crown. They've bought the "it's all over" meme totally already.  

    They want Obama at the top of the ticket immediately so they can commence trashing him.  And once he's the nominee they will print anything that accomplishes that end.  This is a media circus worthy of P. T. Barnum.

    (sigh)  I wish I knew how many voters can actually see through this crap.

    Parent

    Yeah, that would do it (none / 0) (#234)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:59:07 AM EST
    I'll be looking for that cold day in July.

    Parent
    Thank you for this (5.00 / 5) (#65)
    by abfabdem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:00 AM EST
    It is exactly what I have been thinking.  It's like there is a parallel universe.  If not for you guys I would think I had lost my mind!!

    agreed (5.00 / 4) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:40 AM EST
    I think this place has saved more than one of us from antidepressants.


    Parent
    Keep digging (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:17 AM EST
    Let them keep talking.  I am finding the defensive comments (from many corners) very telling, and amusing in a sad sort of way.  I say, keep digging.

    Don't forget to boycott MSNBC today.

    Misogynist Sexist Network & Broadcasting Corporation

    or

    Misogynist Sexist Network & Bigotry Cheerleaders

    Just now? (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:03:49 AM EST
    Where y'all been?

    Course, I cheated - no cable, no problem.

    Parent

    Well I've watched them much less (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:16:00 AM EST
    in recent months but hadn't boycotted them completely.  I still watched Morning Joe sometimes, and would check in on their daytime coverage now and then.  I watched David Gregory's and Dan Abrams' show a couple times a week.  I have boycotted Matthews for years now, and recently (and very regrettably) added Olbermann to my boycott list.

    Parent
    Thanks For the Reminder. n/t (none / 0) (#112)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:09:26 AM EST
    Oh...wow... (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:19 AM EST
    I'd say let him keep digging, but I'm thinking he may run out of dirt before he's done.

    Women of the intellectual class (5.00 / 9) (#70)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:54:39 AM EST
    That she deserves to lose is a widely accepted opinion, strongly held by women as well as men, which, you would think, should mute the growing chorus that Clinton is the victim of vicious misogyny.

    There is a class of women, the essayists, writers, (Pollit, Barbara Ehrenreich, Van Der Heuvel et. al.) they have I believe been the most sinister in the attacks of Hillary and the blind faith in Obama.  I have honestly come to question all their writing, their values and their adherence to truth and justice.  Also, their qualifications to do research and to learn about the subject.  Fascinating that Pollit just wrote a book about how she was a commie cause of her various lovers.  Wonder who she is in love with these days.  

    These women have been the most guttless followers, fearing to be shunned by the status quo liberal male elite power structure.  I will not forgive them.  

    yes, absolutely, I agree (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:02:43 AM EST
    see above comments about my formerly smart friend.

    Parent
    these are some former hippies (5.00 / 4) (#134)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:17:37 AM EST
    who signed onto "free love" because the guys told them to. And I say "some" because of course it wasn't all, but--

    Ever notice that the core of any movement during the sixties was about all the guys getting laid as much as possible?  Anti War?  Let's have sex!  Weather Underground?  Let's have sex!  Charlie Manson?  Let's have sex!  No monogamy.  No marriage.  No help when it was time to fight for women's rights.  Who does this arrangement benefit the most?

    And, of course, if the women got pregnant, or asked for anything in return, or questioned the mens' authority...there were more where they came from.

    Not a huge shock that they are wh*ring themselves out even now.  They never stopped to ask, "wait a minute.  What do I get out of this?  What's in it for me?"

    These sorts of conversations about MoDo et al remind me of the story of Freud's assistant (can't remember her name) who got a clitorectomy because Freud convinced her that she did not need it.

    There's a sucker born every minute.

    Parent

    You said it (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:23:23 AM EST
    I remember them well.  Then in the 80's these guys took advantage of the women who were going to be super moms and bring in the big bucks, but they still acted like the dad of the 50's.  Don't get me started.  

    Parent
    and girls keep doing it today (5.00 / 3) (#183)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:40:24 AM EST
    with rainbow parties, etc.  Do we ever learn?

    That's why I think it's so important that we keep pushing for Clinton.  The Dick that BTD quoted is a prime example of all that is wrong with American politics--and American society.

    In every country that has had a woman president (or leader), and that has equal representation of women in government, crimes against women and children drop exponentially.

    Why does no one talk about this in the context of Clinton's historic run?  We are a society obsessed with crime, whether it's CSI or the serial killer down the street.  The effect woman leaders have on lowering crime should be in every headline.

    But all we're getting is Dick.

    Parent

    By no means all of us! Here's a long list (5.00 / 5) (#148)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:22:18 AM EST
    of women writing work worth reading -- from their "Feminists for Clinton" petition led by the great historian (and former prof of mine) Ellen Du Bois.  (It ought to come as no surprise that she's the expert on Anthony and Cady Stanton, so she knows history in the making, and courage, when she sees it in Clinton.)

    Parent
    I know, but was shocked (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:25:34 AM EST
    at the ones that I mentioned and their particular approach.  

    Parent
    I wasn't -- I know the type too well (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:34:04 AM EST
    as one of the leaders of that other @#$$! list was a coworker of mine, and as I have written before here . . . she who built her career on working for working women was the one whom I learned to trust least.  And I've had too many similar experiences with others who have been co-opted by their own ambition, to get along with the guys at any cost.

    And we have had to deal with such women, used against the cause of all women, throughout history.    I take comfort in knowing that eventually, they are exposed for posterity in the history books.  I hope to live long enough to read a few of those. :-)

    Parent

    Moyers: Last Friday (none / 0) (#215)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:52:32 AM EST
    Christopher Edley, Jr. and Maria Echaveste, did you watch the segment?  

    Interesting discussion on sexism and race.  I really was curious about the opinion of some folks here.  


    Parent

    Van Der Heuvel is the biggest disappointment (5.00 / 4) (#160)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:27:21 AM EST
    in my opinion.  When someone like Maureen Dowd trashes Hillary, it just solidifies my support for Hillary, but when Van Der Heuvel does it, it makes me question myself.  I still whether I'm missing something with Obama, and wonder why I'm not taken in by him as so many others are.  I've never been one for fandom, in fact I tend to run from it I think.  Maybe that's part of it.  But as time goes on, I see less that I like in him and find him to be more weak as a candidate in November.  My top priority has always been to get the neocons out and a democrat in the WH in November.  I think he's going to lose it.

    Oh well, this is the way things are in politics, I suppose.  I'm sure she has her reasons.  

    I did hear Van der Heuvel talking about misogyny one time though -- something about discussions at The Nation about it, and it was a positive statement.  So that was encouraging.  But her more recent appearances have become more and more biased.

    Parent

    To think I used to subscribe to The Nation (5.00 / 3) (#174)
    by Mari on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:34:00 AM EST
    This election has been an eyeopener regarding the so-called liberals. I have spent hard-earned money buying books written by Pollitt. That's the last time I will buy anything by her or Ehrenrich. They should be ashamed of themselves for not speaking up and in effect, condoning the misogny of this primary season.

    Parent
    Ditto the New Yorker lately (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:36:58 AM EST
    and it will be hard to give it up, looking forward to it in the mail for decades now.  But yes, I can -- and yes, I will.  I wrote quite a nasty note back with the latest subscription renewal appeal.:-)

    Parent
    New York Book Review (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:43:05 AM EST
    Got a free subscription with my Salon renewal.  Cannot read any of the political articles.  It now makes me question all their writings.  

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    Think of all the money (none / 0) (#193)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:45:44 AM EST
    and time we will have.  

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    If you have time (none / 0) (#239)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:01:12 AM EST
    and extra money get Phyllis Chesler's excellent book "woman's inhumanity to woman". I ordered it off Amazon and am reading it now.

    (Course you ladies are probably way ahead of me and own it all ready but I do think it explains a lot of what has been discussed here today.)

    Parent

    I Still Subscribe (none / 0) (#244)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:09:31 AM EST
    But not willingly.  I can't get 'em to cancel my subscription.

    Many of The Nation's readers and writers are Jewish.  There's been a lot of discussion about racism and sexism but very little about Jewish issues.  I have a feeling Jews are in for real disappointment with Mr. Obama.  

    Parent

    Nor should you forgive them (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:53:45 AM EST
    They are idiots.


    Parent
    Someone (perhaps my own mother) (5.00 / 2) (#224)
    by zfran on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:55:32 AM EST
    once suggested that after Roe v. Wade became law, men (some) didn't want women in the workplace and have since tried to overturn it to keep them home (and pregnant). Hillary says she will work to preserve Roe v. Wade, Obama says (at least from articles I've read, I've never heard him discuss this)he will appoint sensitive judges to women's needs, gay needs, etc. never using the words to preserve Roe v. Wade. The more I read, especially from men writers, how vitriolic they are towards Hillary, I wonder if some of this is true!!! I also wonder how their own mothers feel about what they've written. Hope I'm not too far off-topic.

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    Given Pollitt's views on war... (none / 0) (#99)
    by sweetthings on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:29 AM EST
    She can perhaps be forgiven for not liking Hillary much. Clinton has many appealing characteristics, but let's face it, she's far and away the more hawkish of the two.

    Parent
    Excuse me (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:10:24 AM EST
    Pollit's views on war, then how does she justify Obama's support of said war ever since he was in office.  Please, Obama is willing to go into Pakistan without asking the government for permission.  They are both gonna be in office to support American military interests.  Do not delude yourself.  Only problem Obama is such a newbie he will make the Bush mistakes.  And stop with the he was against the war BS.  

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    Peace, Stellaaa. (none / 0) (#132)
    by sweetthings on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:17:26 AM EST
    I'm not promoting Obama here, I'm just saying that Hillary has gone out of her way to foster an image of being tough and ready to pull the trigger in foreign policy. I don't think she really had a choice: she had to overcome the perceived idea that women a 'soft' and don't have the balls to be effective on the global stage. And on the whole, I think that image has served Hillary well, but it probably has alienated her from people like Pollitt, who are more sensitive to that sort of thing than most Americans.

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    Why do you think that is (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:50:54 AM EST
    That a woman has to fight against a certain idea of who women are, to the point of crafting a message around it.

    And yet, a guy like Obama never had to craft his message around a stereotype of an African American.

    It might be because people in the media are more willing to fight against racial stereotypes than they willing to fight against sexist stereotypes.

    And wouldn't that just pull this tangent back on topic?

    Aside, from all that, I also think you are wrong.

    Her message on foriegn policy has been endorsed by people like Wes Clark and Joe Wilson.

    Obama's message has been endorsed by Zbignew Bzenski and McPeak.

    Parent

    And what if (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:12:14 AM EST
    a female presidential candidate wasn't hawkish?

    Would she have gotten past the first debate?

    Parent

    No. (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by sweetthings on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:21:00 AM EST
    Like I said in my reply to Stellaaa, Hillary had no choice but to go the hawk route...and besides, it's not like she was going to out-dove Obama, with AUFM on her record.

    And I don't think being a hawk has hurt Hillary at all, but of course it's going to cause people like Pollitt to pull away from her. I'm not going to hold that against Pollitt...we all have our hills to die on, and I suspect that one is hers.

    Parent

    I will hold it against Pollit (none / 0) (#161)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:27:40 AM EST
    cause she is an alleged critical thinker and should have gone beyond the hill.  She should have challenged her readers and her self.  

    Parent
    Far and away?? (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Inky on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:19:30 AM EST
    I'll admit that Hillary uses tougher language sometimes, but how exactly is she far and away more hawkish? It's Obama who constantly goes on about having a troop surge in Afghanistan and "finishing the job" there. It's Obama who repeatedly opines on what a great foreign policy Bush Sr. had and how fantastic Gulf War I was. It's Obama who suggests that we should be able to strike Pakistan without notifying the head of state if we have actionable intelligence. How exactly is Hillary far and away more hawkish?

    Parent
    Because she presents herself that way. (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by sweetthings on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:31:06 AM EST
    Remember these?

    Hillary constantly presents herself and 'ready on day one' (with a not-so-subtle indication that she's ready to unleash the hounds) while attempting to paint Obama as inexperienced and soft.

    Politically, this has been very smart. But nobody should be surprised that it alienates some of the more anti-war types like Pollitt.

    Parent

    Why should experience ... (5.00 / 1) (#227)
    by Inky on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:56:40 AM EST
    alienate the more anti-war types? That's what I don't get. For instance, people love to compare Obama to Kennedy, another candidate who was light on experience (although not so light as Obama). But look at Kennedy's foreign policy mistakes -- there was the Bay of Pigs, the beginning of the nuclear arms race, the escalation of our involvement Vietnam, CIA-sponsored coups. Of course, Kennedy had some foreign policy successes as well but I don't see how being inexperienced should be viewed as such a plus by antiwar types, particularly when Obama chooses FP advisers such as Zbigniew Brzezinski, Dennis Ross, Anthony Lake, etc. Moreover, Hillary's experience involves an intimate knowledge of foreign leaders and a first-hand role in Bill's administration, which, while far from perfect, was the most American peaceful administration in decades. As an antiwar type myself, I think there is plenty to fear from an Obama presidency.

    Parent
    We Don't Talk About Bob Enough (5.00 / 9) (#90)
    by Petey on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:01:25 AM EST
    "Let's put it bluntly, Richard Cohen is a pig. And not a bright one."

    Indeed.

    And Somerby has become an absolutely crucial read.  He's always been good, but with the departure of most of the left blogosphere from the reality based community, Somerby has become utterly necessary.

    Somerby has been a kind of reality check (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Serene1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:20:10 AM EST
    for me also. Some of his articles on the way Cohen and his ilk (especially eugene) had directed a similar vitriol at Gore also was actually heartrending. At least it confirmed to me that I was not wrong in my thinking.

    Parent
    US media now suck (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by Lupin on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:51 AM EST
    Richard Cohen is an awful writer: lazy and shallow. One of the many legacies of the last two decades (this is a societal problem, one that can't be blamed on Bush only) has been the steady erosion of professional standards in the media.

    Or if Hillary had referred to Obama (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Exeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:08:27 AM EST
    as an animal that is often used as slur against African Americans... like when Obama referred to Hillary as a cat.

    Hmmmm. (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by pie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:09:20 AM EST
    I think I read a post at Confluence recently which discussed you in some detail.

    'Course the assumption is that some women can't be (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:14:46 AM EST
    sexist.

    For the record (5.00 / 8) (#131)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:17:20 AM EST
    The flag-burning bill was silly, of course, but it was quite clearly Constitutional.  That's the point, it barely would have banned anything at all, because it was drafted to fit within Constitutional limits.  But it would have taken a powerful symbolic issue away from the GOP.

    The tactic of neutralizing the GOP's symbolic issues with this sort of ju-jitsu is beneath elite liberals, who would rather lose elections by living in a world where politics is about nothing but high-minded policy.  Hillary's proposal to combine McCain's gas tax holiday with a windfall profits tax is an excellent example.  The GOP never would have agreed to a windfall profits tax, but instead of the November election being like "McCain: I wanted to give you a break at the pump, but the Democrats wouldn't lower your taxes" it would have been like "Democrats: We wanted to give you a break at the pump, but the Republicans wouldn't make the oil companies pay a little extra."

    Smart politics, this kind of stuff.  Good thing the media is there to encourage Democrats to never, ever play smart politics.

    Exactly right. But some people hate politics. (5.00 / 3) (#153)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:24:02 AM EST
    Hill thrives on it.  

    Parent
    Excellent post! n/t (none / 0) (#219)
    by magisterludi on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:53:43 AM EST
    Clinton's character as meme (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:23:37 AM EST
    The media is going to keep beating that drum aren't they.  Maybe it isn't, but it sure looks like misogeny when people express opinions that deny facts.   I will watch how Clinton is treated today and tomorrow.  You aren't going to unify when   Sen. Obama's backers see dream ticket as nightmare  By Alexander Bolton  

    Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), The comment that she was there for [the] white working class was divisive. I would hope there is a black and Latino working class she would be there for."  She's getting the Latino vote and that's his excuse.

    Rep. Lacy Clay (D-Mo.), another Obama ally, said choosing Clinton could unify the party but also anger black supporters.  Don't polls show AAs want Clinton as VP?

    When statements are based on lies, what are people supposed to think is behind their motivations?

    I would say this person is thinking of Nov...."We think that change and experience can not only coexist on a ticket but make it much stronger," said Arora. "Change and experience has moved 32 million voters. It will unite the party."

    That argument has persuaded at least one Obama supporter in Congress, Rep. David Scott (D-Ga.), who first endorsed Clinton but then switched to Obama.

    "We cannot win with just black voters, college students and liberal voters," said Scott, referring to Obama's core supporters. "We've got to have working-class whites; we've got to have the support of white women; we've got to have Hispanics, Jewish voters and Catholics. These are the very people that form the core of Hillary's support."  

    If politicians would make statements based on fact, rather than their thinly veiled feelings, voters might take them more seriously.

    I really don't understand the sentiment (5.00 / 3) (#186)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:41:21 AM EST
    that she must be denied, hence the vigorous arguments against the Unity ticket.  Not only must she be beaten in the primary, but she must be denied and disgraced.  I tell you, this really bothers me and makes me feel ill when I think about it.  Someone once said that hatred and anger of the Bush admin. is being misdirected toward Hillary.  Maybe this is the case, but even if it is, it's no less worrisome.  And these are the people who are supposed to be my allies?  I see it, and I hear it, but I don't think I'll ever quite understand what's happening here in this primary.

    Have we no sense of pragmatism left at all?  Would they rather lose the election in order to satisfy the pangs of CDS?  Why?  I just don't get it.

    Parent

    Re: the 20 something men for Sen. Obama (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by wurman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:41:05 AM EST
    In my opinion, based on some phone calls & a few observations of media commentaries & some polling numbers-----

    A disproportionate number of men in the 18-35 tabs support Sen. Obama because . . . because . . . Sen. Clinton reminds them of their mother.

    Similarly, some young women support Sen. Obama because . . . because . . . Sen. Clinton is old.

    One of the societal difficulties in the USA is a whole "bunch" of conflicted attitudes by young men who grew up in households with no father.  So just picture for yourself the bonding with Sen. Obama by these men.

    Advertising, peer pressure & USA social norms make admiring or supporting or voting for an old lady sort of, kind of, partly "disgusting," and especially so to young women trying so hard to by chic & with it.

    It's a triple play for the faux journalists & pundits.  Sexism, mommy-ism & age-ism all rolled up in one neat candidate package to fire away at with every tiresome, tedious, stupid cliche ever dig out of the old play book.

    Pffft.

    Great! We're being bullied by fatherless men (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by goldberry on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:51:01 AM EST
    who did not learn to appreciate all that their hard working mothers did for them.  
    Well, that makes me feel better.  How about you?

    Parent
    Not all of them are that way (5.00 / 1) (#235)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:59:37 AM EST
    The TL kid seems to be pretty darn good, from all we've read about him.

    Parent
    What are you trying to say BTD? (5.00 / 3) (#198)
    by goldberry on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:47:13 AM EST
    That journalists are now trying to cover their asses for giving us 4 years of John McCain or a newby like Barack Obama?  
    That they really don't have any good reasons for deliberately attacking Hillary Clinton?
    That we are going to blame them for the disaster they have dropped on us?  
    That they're no better than a clique of mean highschool girls and they sleep around with whoever foots the bills?  
    I'm not sure that pig is a strong enough word.  

    Exactly this (5.00 / 2) (#207)
    by Faust on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:50:47 AM EST
    It's as if there were two worlds. On in which Clinton is terrible and Obama is a saviour, and the real world, where both of them are politicians with good points and faults.

    There are two worlds. Two different logics, two different cognitive filters, two different strands of identity politics. As someone not strongly attatched to a candidate I have gotten to the point where I can put on my "Obama glasses" and then take them off and put on my "Cliton glasses." Sometimes the worldview change is so jarring I get vertigo.

    I laughed when I read this column last night. (5.00 / 5) (#218)
    by Faust on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:53:08 AM EST
    I thought to myself, ahhh man, the Daily Howler is going to have a field day with this one.

    But BTD going after it is good too.

    What I find disingenuous about Hillary (1.00 / 2) (#245)
    by Artoo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:21:29 AM EST
    Her position on her Iraq vote for one thing. The other thing is the whole Bosnia nonsense. It just seems like lying is old hat for her and her husband.

    I understand that Obama has benefited from sexism, but Clinton has benefited from racism and what I find troubling about this site is that most here seem to find the sexism of Obama's supporters unforgivable while continuing to explain away the racism in Clinton's base.

    For the record, I'm a 33 year-old, white, IT professional in Ohio who's hoping to pull the lever for Obama in November after voting for George W Bush not once, but twice.

    Message of Unity (none / 0) (#69)
    by mcguire1971 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:49 AM EST
    Ok... let me try this again. Sorry for the previous post not being in the proper format. Thank you for correcting me.

    I love Hillary... and I support Obama.

    Please see Hillary's comments about voting for McCain out of anger....

    Also, check out my message of unity here...

    OK... how was that?

    Off topic... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by kredwyn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:26 AM EST
    You'll notice the post is about Cohen and his inability to keep his foot out of his mouth even after emailing BTD that he regretted referring to a colleague and senator as the unbalanced stalker character in Fatal Attraction.

    It appears that some of the surrogates continue to be off message with regards to your unity spiel.

    Parent

    Excuse me (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:18:22 AM EST
    Do you not KNOW what OFF TOPC means?

    Your comments will be deleted as will this subthread.

    Here is how it goes. You read my post. And you comment on MY POST.

    Those are the rules here. Please read the site rules before commenting again.

    Parent

    One last time for all of you (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:30:35 AM EST
    If you have no thoughts on the post written, then DO NOT COMMENT in the thread.

    There are Open threads posted on occasion. In those you can write about what you wish.

    And of course you can all post your e-mail info in your bios and you can discuss whatever you like via e-mail.

    Let me explain why we strictly enforce this policy. We wish to avid rancorous and divisive comment threads. One of the most effective ways for us to do this is to direct what is discussed in those threads by the subjects we choose to write about.

    There are other sites with a different philosophy. We have found that this philosophy works best for us.

    Parent

    Still off topic. (none / 0) (#79)
    by Fabian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:58:23 AM EST
    Rulz here are NO OT POSTS

    Open threads are posted daily, try again then.  Might want to work on your message though, or put on the asbestos long johns.  

    Parent