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Final Kentucky Results Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:54:44 PM EST
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100% reporting

Clinton 65%, 459,144 votes
Obama 30%, 209,771 votes

That's a whuppin.

BTW, what did the Obama Memo predict for Kentucky? A 10 point loss if I recall.

BTW, do any of you at all doubt me that NBC will be totally in the tank for Obama against McCain? they want to talk about Oregon soooooo baaaad right now. I think Olbermann, Tweety and Russert will work till 2 am tonight so they can sing Obama's praises.

Finally, Horace Greeley is Obama's chance to win in November. Go west young Obama. You can't win NC, VA, WV, FL or Ohio. You CAN and SHOULD win Iowa, New Mexico, Colorado and Nevada. You can win a squeaker that way.

< Electability NC Style | Obama, CNN, NBC Do Not Count Florida and Michigan >

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    Final Kentucky Results Thread | 179 comments (179 topical)

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    A thumpin' (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by joanneleon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:55:37 PM EST
    even.

    Trounce, Rout, Dumped On, Thumpin' (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:04:23 PM EST
    pick one!!

    Pls Lord let Or be fairly close...

    Parent

    With 98.4% counted (none / 0) (#133)
    by felizarte on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:51:24 PM EST
    Clinton 453,706 (65.5%) Obama 207,412 (30.0%)

    Clinton nets 246,294 Wow!!

    Parent

    Have they been trashing the voters of KY (none / 0) (#143)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:03:10 PM EST
    like they did the ones of WV, PA, OH?

    I just got in...

    Parent

    Indeed (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:55:38 PM EST
    And as predicted, turnout was almost 85% of Kerry's 2004 total in the state.

    From what the media is telling me (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Dave B on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:55:54 PM EST
    It just doesn't matter...

    Don't Be Fooled (5.00 / 5) (#80)
    by talex on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:23:47 PM EST
    NBC is just building Obama up if/when is is the nominee they can tear him down.

    There has never been any doubt in my mind that corporate MSM wanted Obama as the nominee because he would be the weaker opponent.

    And now after yesterday when Obama replayed the Dean sin of vowing to (1) breakup the media conglomerates and then (2) install minority ownership in those slots that he will be trashed in the media from the time he (maybe) gets the nomination until November.

    Obama gave the Swift Boaters yesterday billions of dollars in free coverage.

    Parent

    Either that or they want him because he's the (5.00 / 4) (#91)
    by derridog on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:28:02 PM EST
    corporate candidate, a trojan horse sent in to take over the Democratic Party the way they took over the Republican one.

    Parent
    Uh-oh (none / 0) (#145)
    by abfabdem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:08:16 PM EST
    the "breaking up the media" was what did Dean in!!

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#157)
    by talex on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:20:14 PM EST


    Parent
    It really is a "whuppin".... (5.00 / 9) (#4)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:56:09 PM EST
    Let's nominate her.

    I love you, masslib! (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by magisterludi on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:16:08 PM EST
    Always on message!

    Let's nominate her! is my mantra now, too.

    Parent

    Me too. What a great mantra! (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:28:21 PM EST


    Parent
    More than I'd hoped for (5.00 / 9) (#5)
    by stillife on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:58:03 PM EST
    35% - it's an a**-kicking.  

    I guess Kentucky didn't get the memo that Obama has already won.  Let's hear it for redneck, low-information voters!

    Yup (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:04:13 PM EST
    I thought black turnout would be a little better and it would be a 25% win for Hillary.

    Parent
    It may be his message of having won (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by blogtopus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:39:17 PM EST
    kneecapped his own vote totals tonight; who wants to vote for someone who has already won?

    Parent
    Time to get out sweetie (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:59:01 PM EST
    BAWAHAHA!! Does it make me a bad person that I'm loving it?

    I have to admit- (5.00 / 5) (#73)
    by magisterludi on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:22:33 PM EST
    I've been in a pretty " If you don't have anything nice to say, come sit next to ME" kind of mood lately. Tonight helps, tho.

    Anyway, I gave up the news before WV and began began tearing out an old concrete driveway instead. Really cathartic.

    Parent

    Awesome (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:24:22 PM EST
    you should see my garden, since I don't watch, listen or read anything but TL.  

    Parent
    Good idea (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by A little night musing on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:26:05 PM EST
    Anyway, I gave up the news before WV and began began tearing out an old concrete driveway instead. Really cathartic.

    We could really get some home repairs done before this election's over! ;-)

    Parent

    I painted a room (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:29:36 PM EST
    the weekend before PA

    Parent
    I weeded 300 square feet Sunday (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by echinopsia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:12:33 PM EST
    Pulled out every weed. By hand. By the roots. And if the roots didn't come I dug them out.

    Talk about cathartic.

    My back is killing me.

    Parent

    Damn good night, still 2 hours (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:03:11 PM EST
    to OR but I don't even care at this point.

    Yeah, I don't think I'll stay up (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by stillife on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:10:17 PM EST
    for the OR results.  I'd probably need some latte for that, and I'm not a latte drinker.  

    Parent
    CNN (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:16:24 PM EST
    is dying to get to OR.  They keep showing the countdown clock.

    Parent
    She is winning by more (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:03:37 PM EST
    than 200,000 votes.

    Hello, popular vote victory!

    Obama is toast in the GE. HRC now has many more possibilities to expand the electoral map than he does.

    An amazing turn of events.

    Have many KY SDs come out? (none / 0) (#13)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:04:09 PM EST


    Parent
    Five KY SD's have come out... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:15:08 PM EST
    three for HRC, two for Obama.

    Four still undecided.

    Parent

    The Obama camp should be panicing at this (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by athyrio on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:04:01 PM EST
    point....that NC poll is devastating to them..

    what poll? (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by dotcommodity on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:00:38 PM EST
    love to see it..

    Parent
    Yes - that may end up being the news of the night (none / 0) (#101)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:30:49 PM EST


    Parent
    Wouldn't it be nice if there was (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:55:27 PM EST
    a real news channel to watch?

    Parent
    Congressional District 5 (5.00 / 10) (#16)
    by DaveOinSF on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:04:27 PM EST
    Check it out.  Obama's going to get less than 15% in Congressional District 5.  They are going to deem him "unviable".

    That's sad (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:11:01 PM EST


    Parent
    Not really, No. (5.00 / 4) (#66)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:20:40 PM EST


    Parent
    If only (5.00 / 6) (#17)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:04:49 PM EST
    he had campaigned there, he could have held it to under 30. The more people get to know him, the more they like him.

    I I hear any more pundits... (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by citizen53 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:05:57 PM EST
    I am going to puke.

    How much better the analysis was in the old days.

    The same old talking heads saying the same old thing, over and over and over, with Matthews simply the worst.

    MSNBC is the flip side of Fox.  Progressives should be sick to watch propaganda like that.

    Clinton's speech was a good one.  I don't know who should win at this point.  

    As usual, the Democrats took a bad thing and made it worse, with some help from the media and the American way of instant gratification and excess.

    They Should Just Make An Audio Tape Of (none / 0) (#25)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:08:57 PM EST
    their drivel and then they could go home and give the viewers a break...

    Parent
    But BTD, his prediction was before the (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Teresa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:05:58 PM EST
    e-mail went out (the one I received prior to Christmas).

    Actually (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by DaveOinSF on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:07:38 PM EST
    Actually, Obama's just dipped under 30% if you don't round...he's actually at 29.9 and falling.  

    They are in meltdown mode over at Dkos (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by ChuckieTomato on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:08:01 PM EST


    They Deserve A Meltdown....Notice How We (5.00 / 6) (#29)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:10:29 PM EST
    don't all run over there to gloat?

    Hillary 227,000 votes ahead of obama...this is really gonna help.

    Parent

    especially since she will do OK in Oregon (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by ChuckieTomato on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:15:08 PM EST
    look at the states Hillary has won, all swing states with significant populations, not red state caucuses

    Parent
    Even If You Have an IQ Of 75, You Can See (none / 0) (#180)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:47:08 AM EST
    obama is not the most electable candidate.

    Parent
    I do my gloating (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by Nadai on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:21:43 PM EST
    here, where more people appreciate it.

    Parent
    Rise, Hillary, Rise (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by themomcat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:23:40 PM EST
    I so want to go over there and post that. But I won't. I won't give them the traffic and I won't go back after the election.

    Parent
    What are they doing over there? (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:28:31 PM EST
    Bashing the "Appalachians" whose lives they want to better through their "progressive" politics?

    I can't even read that self-righteous, condescending  crap any more....I thank them, though; it was reading at Kos that helped me finally to see Democrats through the eyes of Republicans and I know NOW why working-class whites tend to vote against their economic interests: they're deeply insulted by these snooty jerks.

    Parent

    It's funny. I was just thinking the (5.00 / 4) (#110)
    by derridog on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:37:26 PM EST
    same thing today.  The basic message Dems give is ''Gosh,it's too bad the people we 'progressives' want to help are so ignorant and backward. They are just too stupid to understand our brilliant and compassionate grasp of the bigger picture. What's the matter with them?!"

    Is it any wonder they hate us?

    Parent

    I left in 2006 (none / 0) (#171)
    by Eleanor A on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:49:01 PM EST
    after being roundly lambasted for supporting Harold Ford.  Who I'll agree is no angel, and far from the ideal Dem candidate...

    But come on.  I live in Tennessee.  We just don't have the numbers to elect Massachusetts-style Democrats here.  What am I supposed to do, NOT support my legimately-nominated Dem for a Senate seat - especially when control of the body was 51-49?

    I just get tired of busting my ass day after day trying to fight the Republicans on basic issues like, oh, not making abortions illegal for rape victims, or throwing hundreds of thousands of poor people in the street without health care, or why we shouldn't let some vendor with a conflict of interest sell us voting machines without a paper trail.  The LAST thing I need is a whole bunch of grief from latte liberals who want to wale on me, too.  

    If they really wanted to help other Dems in this country, they'd get their asses on a bus and come down here to help elect other Dems in Appalachia, not bust on us every chance they get.

    I'm so sick of reading morality tales from people sitting on a high horse in some state where it's really, really easy to be a Dem.  Try fighting an uphill battle against really malignant  Republicans for everything, from school board to U.S. Congress, and then come to me with your condescension.

    Sorry for the soapbox, all....it's just been that kind of a night ;)

    Parent

    What did they expect? (none / 0) (#119)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:41:00 PM EST


    Parent
    All the pundits keep saying he should have (5.00 / 6) (#24)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:08:50 PM EST
    gone there, should have been on the ground.  I haven't heard any good explanation for why Obama dissed WestVA and KY so bad.  Has anybody heard a reasonable explanation?

    Jamal should stop (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:10:38 PM EST
    repeating that.  He should not make that an issue.  

    Parent
    I haven't heard any (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by A little night musing on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:12:58 PM EST
    ... but my guess would be that it was thought that active campaigning in WV and KY would be an acknowledgment that the nomination was not, in fact, already decided and would work against the message they were trying to get out.

    Parent
    ah (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:14:29 PM EST
    I guess that does make sense.  I mean, I am not sure it serves him well in the long term.  But if he is afraid this thing is not over that makes sense since he couldn't win there anyway...but he can forget ever getting that vote back now.

    Parent
    Interesting (5.00 / 7) (#51)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:16:33 PM EST
    But then what about all the campaigning in Oregon?  What about the big rally with 75,000 people that we heard so much about?

    Interesting that he's very interested in campaigning in Oregon, but when it comes to WV and KY, suddenly he's too busy with general election stuff.

    Parent

    The Decemberists Played (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by BDB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:24:25 PM EST
    at the Obama rally.  I don't seem to have seen that reported a lot.  

    Parent
    Well that band will bring out the hipsters. (none / 0) (#149)
    by abfabdem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:11:35 PM EST
    No wonder the big turnout!

    Parent
    The interesting thing about that rally (5.00 / 4) (#103)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:32:04 PM EST
    is that it was a free concert with 16 bands. So the crowd may not have been there just to see Obama. A great many of them may have come just for the music. Heh.

    Parent
    Really, 16 bands? (none / 0) (#111)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:38:13 PM EST
    A link?

    Parent
    There are lots of them, but this one has (none / 0) (#128)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:48:47 PM EST
    links and more info. It was the Decembrists who opened for him, not 16 bands..my mistake quoting another thread here without checking. But the comments on this link are rather amusing.

    Parent
    Yep, (none / 0) (#150)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:11:35 PM EST
    they feel exactly how I felt when I first heard about Obama rallies.

    Most people are spooked by them.  This guy is going to lose BIG.

    Parent

    Wow. (none / 0) (#172)
    by Eleanor A on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:50:37 PM EST
    I saw them at Bonnaroo, and they were great...and they drew a HUGE crowd.

    How dishonest of the media to not report that.  Seriously.

    Parent

    I posted on one of the other threads (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:20:44 PM EST
    lost track, but Roland Martin said he didn't campaign in WV & KY because he is the "champion team who has got the berth in the playoffs and is resting to prepare for the big game." pfft. More like the team that walks off the field with 3 minutes to go in the 4th quarter if you ask me, but whatever helps you sleep at night, Roland.

    Parent
    It shows (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:23:13 PM EST
    he will not do the hard work, the long distance of building the connections for the GE.  He really probably peeved the voters.  

    Parent
    Roland Martin (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:45:05 PM EST
    isn't helping IMO.  Does the Obama campaign really want the voters of those states to think that the Senator is too tired to come to see them?  Maybe they'll be too tired to talk to him when he comes for the GE.

    Parent
    roland is spinning himself. good luck/that! (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by hellothere on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:47:23 PM EST


    Parent
    Instead Of Resting, He Should Have Gone (none / 0) (#174)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:13:04 PM EST
    to the small towns and rural areas and practiced talking to the people he needs to win in November. He still would not have won but at least he could at least try to improve his approach.

    Parent
    HA! Actively campaigning would have looked (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by leis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:22:02 PM EST
    a h*ll of a lot better than the royal beat down that was just delivered.  That is mind numbingly obtuse. I believe he didn't campaign because he knew it wouldn't make a difference. Now that is some cold hard reality.

    Parent
    He said because of that e-mail (the Muslim (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by Teresa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:15:21 PM EST
    BS) and Fox news had already reached the people in KY. I got that e-mail from someone I worked with at my old job back in December (and I blocked her e-mails since then).

    I guess he's just using the MI excuse here: I didn't contest it (even though he did spend a lot more on advertising than she did).

    Parent

    Gosh (5.00 / 12) (#53)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:17:20 PM EST
    If an email and some negative coverage from Fox News can result in a 35-point loss in a Democratic primary, that's not the greatest argument for his electability in November.

    Parent
    Now now... (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:27:14 PM EST
    we all know that Obama won't get any negative press if he's selected as the nominee! He is a Media Darling!

    /snark

    Parent

    He outspent her and had more staff (5.00 / 5) (#88)
    by Iris on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:26:32 PM EST
    in WV and KY.  He stayed away so he could claim that if he had been here he would have done better.  In other words, just more haka.

    Parent
    Is no one mentioning that (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:33:44 PM EST
    great Edwards boost in Kentucky?  Maybe he saved Obama from a 50% defeat!

    Parent
    I think he honestly believes (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:40:17 PM EST
    the crap that Donna was spouting. They believe they can create some new, elite coalition.

    Parent
    How can this be bad for Dems (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:09:30 PM EST
    We get 100% of the airwaves. Our message is being repeated by two candidates.  If not for the pundits, it could be informative.

    Eastern Kentucky (5.00 / 7) (#27)
    by DaveOinSF on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:10:07 PM EST
    Floyd County
    Hillary 92%
    Obama 5%

    Pike County
    Hillary 91%
    Obama 7%

    Breathitt County
    Hillary 90%
    Obama 7%

    Dave...do you (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:11:41 PM EST
    think we live in the wrong demogrpahic?  ...Ha..ha.

    Parent
    You in SF too? (none / 0) (#48)
    by DaveOinSF on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:15:35 PM EST
    I'm just another 30something wine-track creative class white male Bay Area professional for Hillary

    Parent
    Berkeley (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:17:42 PM EST
    the house with two Hillary signs.  Yep...!! and I got the two under 25 year olds that are for Hillary.  

    Parent
    SF (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by sarahfdavis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:26:41 PM EST
    I have to keep my mouth shut. Most of my work pals are for O.
    I live in Noe Valley. Not too many signs for either here.

    Parent
    Hehe...Noe is (none / 0) (#134)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:55:10 PM EST
    Obama territory.  Yikes.

    Parent
    Noe Valley (none / 0) (#154)
    by DaveOinSF on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:13:42 PM EST
    I'm in Noe Valley too.  House on the corner of Church and 23rd St has several Hillary signs.  I'm thinking of leaving them a note and telling them how happy I am that they have those up.

    Parent
    Well as a "wine track" Appalachian (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by tnjen on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:38:41 PM EST
    ...I welcome all of you. :) I've got roots in E.TN and E.KY. Did I mention I'm a generational Appalachian of many ethnicities (races but I don't believe in race as a concept), a youth voter, and an university lecturer?

    Parent
    Ditto for me, (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Iphie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:24:59 PM EST
    but I'm in NYC. It just doesn't make any sense. I must be low-information -- that must be it.

    Parent
    I Want To Feel Sorry For obama....BUT I CAN'T (5.00 / 9) (#33)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:12:12 PM EST
    BLANCHE...I CAN'T!!

    Wolf Blitzer...this was a crushing defeat for obama.

    Parent

    Wolf actually said that? (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by stillife on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:14:24 PM EST
    I'm shocked!  

    Parent
    Yeah but (5.00 / 4) (#108)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:34:40 PM EST
    He and John King went on to set up Obama's "not-openly-a-victory speech" by pointing out that Obama gets two delegates out of Kentucky--and those two give him the "magic number."

    Isn't that perfect? He gets to his "magic number" not out of a "crushing" victory of his own in Oregon, but out of two delegates from a race in which Hillary and Kentuckians handed him his fanny by at least 35 points.

    I think this is symbolic--in a not good way for anyone who would really prefer a Democratic victory in November.

    The wheels are off the Obamamobile and the media keep talking about how pretty it is.

    Parent

    Just Saw 77% in KY Would Vote Clinton (none / 0) (#179)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:44:02 AM EST
    16% would vote McCain, 5% would stay home...what does that tell us?

    Parent
    David Gergon on CNN questioned now (5.00 / 0) (#156)
    by zfran on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:17:13 PM EST
    why Obama was going to speak in Iowa after this crushing defeat in KY. Seemed kind of silly to him. Donna B. said he wanted to thank them in Iowa and to set down some roots for the GE. Sounded lame to me..David Gergon just shook his head.

    Parent
    can't they just close the door on (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by hellothere on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:49:58 PM EST
    brazile. she is such an embarrassment to the network, the party and herself.

    Parent
    If I Were An Oregon Voter, I Would (5.00 / 0) (#175)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:17:39 PM EST
    prefer that he stayed and gave a victory speech in Oregon.

    Just me I guess.

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by stillife on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:12:25 PM EST
    just wow.  

    Of course, the pundits will say that those folks are racist, but they never seem to question the 90-10 AA Obama vote.

    Parent

    That's because those pundits aren't dumb (none / 0) (#131)
    by Seth90212 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:50:25 PM EST
    enough to think that those AA's are motivated by hate or an unwillingness to vote for a white candidate. In fact, AA's have given that same 80-90% percentile to white candidates. I suspect they gave that to Clinton in her senate campaigns.

    Figures you wouldn't see the distinction. Those pundits do recognize the distinction, that's why they won't make fools of themselves arguing moral equivalency. But I hope you will at least concede that the white racist vote for Hillary more than offsets the AA vote for Obama.


    Parent

    No way (5.00 / 6) (#142)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:01:39 PM EST
    I certainly will not concede that there are more white racists in the Democratic Party than there are African-Americans.  That strikes me as quite the bold assertion.

    Parent
    Not only are there vastly more white racists (1.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Seth90212 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:20 PM EST
    than AA's in the Democratic electorate, there also more women voting strictly on gender than there are AA's. Obama has prevailed despite these massive disadvantages.

    Parent
    Well, there are vastly more lettuce-eaters (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Evie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:35:41 PM EST
    than arugula-eaters in the Democratic electorate, but more arugula-eaters are voting strictly on vegetable preference than lettuce-eaters. Clinton has prevailed despite these massive disadvantages.

    Parent
    Okay (none / 0) (#166)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:24 PM EST
    You seem to enjoy making assertions without evidence, and ignoring the side of the equation that favors your own candidate, so I'll just leave you to your self-created reality.

    Parent
    I will concede that there has been a smaller male (none / 0) (#169)
    by Seth90212 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:18:20 PM EST
    gender vote for Obama. And I do not begrudge the female gender vote for Hillary. It's a perfectly legitimate vote, even if she gets 90% of women.

    Parent
    Excuse me?! (5.00 / 4) (#144)
    by otherlisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:03:25 PM EST
    No. I won't concede that.

    If Obama is the nominee, this kind of rhetoric absolutely will sink him in the general. It amazes me that so many of his supporters can't see that.

    Parent

    Today a full 30% of the white electorate (1.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Seth90212 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:11 PM EST
    said they voted for Hillary or against Obama based on race. Now these were the people willing to admit it. Maybe it's more like 40% or 50% in states like KY and W.VA. Certainly the racist vote isn't this high in most states. But there is a certain percentage in every contest which often times overwhelms Obama's AA vote. PA and OH are examples. Cumulatively, I believe white racist voters have outnumbered AA's in this election.

    Parent
    Well If 30% Of White Dems Are Racists, (none / 0) (#176)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:21:22 PM EST
    Obama can not win in November.

    Parent
    In KY he has no shot, that is true (none / 0) (#178)
    by Seth90212 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:58:57 PM EST
    I did not extrapolate that to every state. He obviously won the white vote in OR.

    Parent
    Maybe the distinction (none / 0) (#155)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:16:29 PM EST
    is that those people aren't dumb enough to give the presidency to someone who doesn't have enough experience.

    White collar workers are pragmatists.  They don't respond well to dreamers.

    Parent

    let's see a white vote is racist and an (none / 0) (#163)
    by hellothere on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:52:34 PM EST
    aa vote is just business as usual. you somehow forgot to factor in why the aa vote left hillary for obama. yeah, right! aa's just naturally vote for dems. sorry but you dissed both groups. that is real feat of sorts.

    Parent
    Important counties, too. (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by liminal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:23:24 PM EST
    Those are traditionally Democratic counties in national politics.  Floyd, Pike, and Breathitt all voted for Kerry in 2004, when Bush beat Kerry by 20 points in Kentucky.  It's weird, KY-05 has some of the strongest Democratic counties in the state and some of the strongest Republican counties in the state - the difference, I suppose, between the unionized coalfields the less unionized mountain counties?  I'm not sure; I'm not as familiar with Kentucky history.

    Parent
    It can depend (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Eleanor A on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:55:59 PM EST
    on the age of the voters.  Middle TN has some of the strongest Dem/Rep counties in the state also; the difference is that the GOP counties are often exurbs of larger cities, the Dem counties are full of older folks who are the remnants of the pre-LBJ "yellow dog" coalition.

    Parent
    And BTD: (5.00 / 6) (#35)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:12:48 PM EST
    You can win a squeaker that way.
    We need another mocking post from you on "expanding the map." It is perfectly clear to me now that Only Hillary can meaningfully expand the map. Even if Obama wins Nebraska, he's still fu*ked if he loses across the east.

    And John King (5.00 / 5) (#61)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:19:27 PM EST
    now says that Obama's winning states will include. . .Georgia!

    The kool aid has gone sour, methinks.

    Parent

    Balked (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:20:18 PM EST
    at giving him MO, though.

    Parent
    As Well He Should (none / 0) (#177)
    by MO Blue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:25:59 PM EST
    MO conservative Dems will not vote for Obama. Can't win the state without both strong AA support and conservative Dems.

    BTW Ras poll 5/6 McCain 53% Obama 39%

    Parent

    What???? Georgia? (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:36:27 PM EST
    The Kool-Aid is now made by Merry Pranksters.....

    Parent
    Georgia??? Theyare off the deep end now. (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by kenosharick on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:51:04 PM EST
    I am in a graduate program in Georgia and (though anecdotal) have not met a person who is considering voting Obama- on a college campus!!! He will not win a Southern state; will lose Wis and Co. And will probably lose Iowa as well. Mccain will even make Mass and NJ tough for Obama. WHERE IS THE RATIONALE FOR SUPPORTING THIS MAN???

    Parent
    OMG, what a joke! Georgia. haha (none / 0) (#129)
    by RalphB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:50:03 PM EST


    Parent
    Yay! (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:23:51 PM EST
    Let's nominate the guy who might just be able to squeak by instead of the woman who can win a huge and decisive victory!!!!

    Parent
    Very true. (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:28:49 PM EST
    His demographics show a loss in PA and MI and there aren't enough ev's in the west to make up for those.

    Parent
    Iowa - wrong argument for Obama (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by TalkRight on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:12:54 PM EST
    I just flipped to msnbc and heard Keith Oberman telling how great it was for Obama to go in Iowa to tell people that IT too is a WHITE demographics that spurred his candidacy... Iowa is the right place for him to remind people that he is still loved by white voters... I think that is pretty bad argument... since it AGAIN focuses attention on white voter and that IS Hillary's argument.. He has LOST the  majority of white voter support that he enjoined in the beginning of his camp..

    IA was (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:32:53 PM EST
    pre Wright too.

    Parent
    Nothing new (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:43:55 PM EST
    after his "decisive Iowa victory" (which I recall was actually better described as almost a 3-way tie) he said something to the effect that he "knew Iowa voters would not be swayed by race" which I read as "y'all aren't racist in Iowa."

    Parent
    I Agree Olbermann Is in the Tank for Obama (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by BDB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:13:38 PM EST
    even against McCain.  Tweety, however, loves McCain.  He may be fairer to Obama than another Dem, but he's not going to be in the tank for him.

    Maybe Olbermann will stay true (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:17:46 PM EST
    to his love Obama...but the rest of the NBC pundits will be all McCain, all the time.

    Sorry. Na ga hapin that the corporate media will back a Dem.

    McCain will cut their taxes, ya know.

    Parent

    14 pts and MSNBC lowest ratings (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:14:14 PM EST
    I have to look at network news, but MSNBC is the lowest rated of the three always (I imagine dry humping a candidates leg will turn off certain viewers)

    KY CD-5: Obama gets 0 delegates (5.00 / 9) (#40)
    by Dan the Man on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:14:20 PM EST
    according to USA Today because he is below the 15% threshhold.

    Oh. My. God. (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:17:28 PM EST


    Parent
    Will that change CNN's (none / 0) (#125)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:44:17 PM EST
    tentative delegate count for the night? Are they even reporting it?

    Parent
    CNN Just Said obama Got 2 SD's From KY (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:22:30 PM EST
    I wonder which two dimbulbs they are.

    Parent
    He had them before (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by madamab on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:25:26 PM EST
    unless they were two of the remaining uncommitted ones.

    Which I highly doubt.

    Parent

    The Obama camp (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by hitchhiker on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:14:29 PM EST
    is wishing there were some other news happening between right now and 8 pm Pacific.

    Ted Kennedy's tragedy.  Their own fundraising.  Some crazy thing McCain said.  Chinese earthquake.

    Anything but the smiling Clinton family pictured above a screen crawl that says she just beat him by 200,000 + votes again.

    I've never seen anything like this last 6 months, ever.

    I do have one thing to say to all you Obama lurkers here:  if I do vote for him it will be because he managed to make the case to me, and because he asked for my vote.

    I'd like to say that you could try to make the case for him, but unfortunately it became necessary in January to just stop listening to Obama supporters.  Their special combination of intensity, obliviousness, and hostility was starting to become a very serious argument against their candidate.

    So ~~ have a good time waiting for the Oregon results.  America is looking at Hillary with yet another blowout of the Presumed Nominee behind her.

    His mantra right now is he has 1627 delegates... (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:23:45 PM EST
    according to his figures, the majority, which to my mind doesn't mean a damn thing....convention here we come.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 4) (#99)
    by Iris on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:30:03 PM EST
    I hope the superdelegates realize the game Obama is playing.  They're trying to run out the clock before people realize he has serious problems.  The question is, if they know about these weaknesses, why is he still in the race??

    Parent
    Scratch that - I mean *delegates* (none / 0) (#100)
    by Iris on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:30:42 PM EST


    Parent
    John King is (5.00 / 11) (#52)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:16:37 PM EST
    finally showing Hillary's huge lead in electoral college.

    I thought that was great. (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:18:47 PM EST


    Parent
    Is Brazile still around? (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by bridget on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:19:54 PM EST
    Good for John King.

    Speak the truth, John!!!

    Parent

    Russert (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Decal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:28:03 PM EST
    Matthews took a break from Hiilary-hatin' to play devil's advocate and make that same electoral college argument to Russert in regards to Ohio and Pennsylvania.  Russert countered that Obama does better in Minnesota and Wisconsin.  Good grief.  

    Parent
    Russert has really established himself (none / 0) (#118)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:40:36 PM EST
    as a maroon during these primaries. Why does that man get any respect? He's really not that bright, is he?

    Parent
    Although (none / 0) (#62)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:19:42 PM EST
    wasn't he giving the go west Obama argument while giving OH to Obama? Or did I mishear?

    Parent
    WTF (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:18:37 PM EST
    NOw Wolf Blitzer says Obama has the pledge majority he wanted???

    Mathematical majority (5.00 / 6) (#63)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:19:46 PM EST
    of an idiotic system= Dem loss

    Parent
    1627 (5.00 / 4) (#60)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:19:00 PM EST
    The media is happy now.  They can tell the 1627 pledged delegate story now instead of having to report on the thumping Obama just took.

    CNN (5.00 / 4) (#68)
    by suisser on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:21:03 PM EST
    Just called 1627 delegates  for Obama a "moral threshold"
    How gross....

    Aaah! (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by stillife on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:22:05 PM EST
    Fox is covering Obama's ignorance of the Hanford site.  Hee hee!

    I just dropped another $500 in the pot for Hillary (5.00 / 8) (#71)
    by Angel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:22:11 PM EST
    Yes, I've had too much wine, but baby I am celebrating!  

    You're good! (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Iphie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:31:35 PM EST
    I'm trying to figure out how much I can send her way tonight.

    Parent
    Honey, I'm broke but I'm going in all the way for (none / 0) (#130)
    by Angel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:50:17 PM EST
    Hillary! That's what credit cards are for!

    Parent
    Tonight Obama against McCain. (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:22:54 PM EST
    But when the nomination is settled, I'll bet MSNBC/NBC/CNBC starts pumping up McCain bit time.

    Agree. This is about Hillary hate, (none / 0) (#140)
    by chancellor on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:00:53 PM EST
    not Obama love. That's why I disagree with BTD on his "media darling" theory.

    Parent
    Actually it is about Democratic hate, (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:39 PM EST
    not Hillary.  It is a consistent pattern.  People in Obama's camp who are fooling themselves into believing that the media will be nicer to Obama are fooling themselves.  People who think that Obama will have an easier time of it because he is NOT Hillary Clinton are really fooling themselves.

    Does anyone think that it is simply kismet that CNN and other news outlets have been contracting the most disgusting and discredited Republican pundits?  I mean seriously.  They are all just gearing up for McCain.  They will claim that they are trying to be "fair and balanced", but those of us who have been paying attention for approximately ten (or maybe more) years will know what they are really up to.  We will also know that the Democrat's only hope in combatting them will come from making clear distinctions with their opponent - not from lovely talk about being best friends for life.

    Parent

    Turnout (5.00 / 11) (#75)
    by DaveOinSF on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:23:13 PM EST
    WIth 97% in, we have 655000 voters in Kentucky, representing 91.8% of the 2004 Kerry vote.  While this will end up a bit down from the peak we had in Indiana (114% turnout), it's still surpasses all other states except Texas, North Carolina and West Virginia.  Funny that 2 of the top 5 states with regards to voter turnout were AFTER the media decided the race was over.

    Voters saying to the media (5.00 / 5) (#97)
    by A little night musing on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:29:04 PM EST
    "We'll decide for ourselves when this is over, thank you very much!"

    Parent
    May have spoken too soon... (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by DaveOinSF on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:34:01 PM EST
    We're up to 96.4% turnout now (calculated vs. Kerry vote).  We might hit 100% and an outside shot of passing Texas (101.2%)

    Parent
    Keep in mind KY=closed primary (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by davnee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:39:35 PM EST
    Unlike TX.  Amazing!!!

    Parent
    240,000 Votes Ahead.... (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:28:36 PM EST


    I dare to doubt you. (5.00 / 5) (#104)
    by RonK Seattle on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:32:35 PM EST
    The Media hate The Clintons. (That, again, is NOT news.)

    The Media lo-o-ove Obama ... and it's not the shy, sidelong glances kindo love, neither.

    But remember this: The Media love The McCain. They have always loved McCain, and they likely always will.

    And this would come as a shock to Obama (if nominated) since he's been running downhill all the way so far, with the wind at his back, with the ref's on his side, and he still thinks they're being too tough on him.

    Ed Rendell on Fox (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:39:25 PM EST
    Rendell: in the last three months Clinton won 7 of 10, blowouts, tonight 250k, she's most electable and that's what convention is about, she'll be ahead in the popular vote, go through Puerto Rico, best to win, best ideas, connecting, etc.

    How do you get people to come together?

    Rendell: they come together by necessity.... women come up to me and say I can't vote for Obama.  I tell them yes you can, supreme court.  There are supreme court justices to be appointed and you don't want McCain appointing supreme court justices.  Ha! Ha! Ha!

    OK, ladies, sit down, shut-up and get in to line and march to the ballot box like good little 'sweeties'

    Aint gonna happen (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:43:20 PM EST
    Thy ain't going to scare me into voting for Obama. THAT is another trick right out of the GOP playbook.

    Parent
    this typical bitter sweetie ain't buying it, Ed (none / 0) (#138)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:59:40 PM EST
    Dream on, hon.

    Parent
    That "supremes" song is boring now. (none / 0) (#147)
    by wurman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:09:55 PM EST
    If, if, if . . . Sen. Obama is the nominee and--
    If, if, if . . . Saint John the Righteous wins--

    A senator named Clinton will be on the floor to stop, stop, stop any of the idiotic McBu$h efforts to appoint certain types of activists to the court.

    That refrain is worn out.

    Parent

    Excellent comeback (none / 0) (#153)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:12:56 PM EST
    We'll just tell them Hillary will be right there in the Senate looking after us...

    Parent
    That's (none / 0) (#160)
    by Nadai on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:34:03 PM EST
    not actually a bad public message.  Yes, he's saying "Support the Dem nominee" but he's a known Hillary supporter; he has to say that.  But at the same time, he's getting out the word that Dem women are threatening not to vote Obama and feel strongly enough about it to buttonhole the Governor of PA.  The more major voices we can get saying that, the better for Hillary, I think.

    Parent
    Again, the problem with a go West (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by tigercourse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:42:31 PM EST
    argument is that John McCain is from the West. Obama should win New Mexico (though he ties there in SUSA) he has a very good chance at Iowa (though his numbers are sagging there as well). I don't know about Nevada (he isn't winning it in current polls) and I doubt he will win Colorado.

    McCain loves the MSM (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:42:53 PM EST
    McCain will actually talk to the media. They will always love him for that.  They will forgive his ms-steps because he gives them so much more to work with. And he loves them too.  

    The MSM looks at McCain and sees a 4 year bus ride and BBQs with their best buddy. McCain looks at the MSM and sees his most loyal constituency.

    Obama doesn't like the press, and won't go near them unless he is forced.  They like him now because they hate Hillary, that is all there is to that.

    Obama (5.00 / 4) (#127)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:48:18 PM EST
    to speak in IA and per Suzanne Malveaux, will talk about Hillary's integrity and character.  In a positive way.  In case you were confused given past history. :-)

    So what? (none / 0) (#137)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:59:14 PM EST
    He's going to give her a eulogy of sorts?

    KO just said Obama will be claiming victory in OA based on what happened in KY.

    Yes..he actually said that.

    Parent

    does that qualify as insanity? (none / 0) (#141)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:01:07 PM EST
    Take him away in a straight jacket.

    Parent
    Please, please, please (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by adcatlett on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:09:37 PM EST
    let her close the gap in Oregon.  The damn pundits are predicting this and that. Her speech was wonderfully classy.  I'm so happy right now!  

    I was definitely shocked of the huge margin she received in KY. I'm in Lexington and over the past week, I'd started to see all the Obama signs.

    Woohoo, Hillary!

    Amen (none / 0) (#151)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:12:30 PM EST
    I'm happy to see that 250,000 vote margin but worry about how much of that will be perceived as being cancelled out by Obama's Oregon win.

    He's going to do very well there, but I'll be surprised if it's by more than 15-17%.

    Fingers crossed.

    Parent

    NPR (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by nellre on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:10:45 PM EST
    Caught a brief snippet on NPR and went ballistic. I was driving so I had to turn the radio off.

    WV and Kentucky "seem to be resisting Obama".

    No Hillary won those states in spite of the fact she's behind in the delegate count... noooo... the voters there weren't voting for her, they were "resisting Obama".

    Sheesh.

    Oborgma, resistence is futile. (none / 0) (#168)
    by Radix on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:16:25 PM EST
    Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated

    Don Henley-The Garden of Allah

    Parent

    Whuppin and thumpin (none / 0) (#6)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:58:37 PM EST
    which is bigger?

    Depends... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by oldpro on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:00:03 PM EST
    are ya givin' or receivin'?

    Parent
    Whuppin', thumpin' tomato tomahto (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:00:07 PM EST
    Let's call this what it is: she murdered 'im.

    Parent
    A Whumping Would Be The Biggest... :) (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:06:11 PM EST


    Parent
    Obama Predicted (none / 0) (#21)
    by BDB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:07:10 PM EST
    56-42.  

    NBC (none / 0) (#44)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:14:47 PM EST
    I'm still not convinced they will stay true to Obama in the GE. I have great faith in the ability of the media to make hypocrites of themselves and turn on a dime.

    However, it might be a conscious agenda as they strive to be the 'anti-Fox'.

    They (none / 0) (#120)
    by cal1942 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:41:20 PM EST
    attack whoever they hate. Right now the only race is between Clinton and Obama.

    In the GE no matter who the nominee NBC will follow the rest of the media to their everlasting love: John McCain.

    Parent

    I noticed 16 000 uncommitted votes (none / 0) (#57)
    by bridget on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:18:12 PM EST
    what does that mean? NOthing?

    Why would people vote uncommitted at this point?

    Why did they give him the 2? (none / 0) (#82)
    by badu on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:23:53 PM EST
    Where did they come from and why did they award them to him?  Did anyone hear that explanation?

    So...has CNN (none / 0) (#117)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:40:23 PM EST
    taken CD 5 into account in their delegate math? Obama only got 9% of the vote there. Does that include the entire district?

    Only 2 counties for Obama. (none / 0) (#167)
    by Radix on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:10:40 PM EST
    I'm sure there's a positive in there some where, can't wait till the Obama folks explain it to me.

    Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated

    Don Henley-The Garden of Allah

    Final Kentucky Results Thread | 179 comments (179 topical)

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