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The Malign Acceptance of Sexism: UK's New Statesman Notices

Via Corrente, the UK's New Statesman US correspondent notices the sexism pervasive in our Media as manifested in this campaign:

Gloating, unshackled sexism of the ugliest kind has been shamelessly peddled by the US media, which - sooner rather than later, I fear - will have to account for their sins. . .

I am no particular fan of Clinton. Nor, I think, would friends and colleagues accuse me of being racist. But it is quite inconceivable that any leading male presidential candidate would be treated with such hatred and scorn as Clinton has been. . . . [More...]

[T]he worst offender is the NBC/MSNBC network, which has what one prominent Clinton activist describes as "its nightly horror shows". Tim Russert, the network's chief political sage, was dancing on Clinton's political grave before the votes in North Carolina and Indiana had even been fully counted - let alone those of the six contests to come, the undeclared super-delegates, or the disputed states of Florida and Michigan. The unashamed sexism of this giant network alone is stupendous. . .

Indeed. The sad thing is the so called progressive blogs have behaved in the exact same fashion as NBC.

Speaking for me only.

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    And outside the bubble perspective (5.00 / 9) (#1)
    by Dr Molly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:51:43 AM EST
    Sometimes that's the only way to see the truth. This is not the first non-U.S. journalist to be able to see this issue more clearly than most here can. Interesting.

    And also.... (5.00 / 9) (#2)
    by Dr Molly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:55:02 AM EST
    We need to start to realize that the U.S. is a very sexist country compared to a lot of others. They are beginning to see how truly backwards we are in this respect and it is embarrassing.

    Parent
    Maggie was respected by everyone... (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:50:09 AM EST
    ...possibly feared.  It always seemed to backfire when she was verbally assaulted by male Labour pols.  We've also had the queen for 50  years

    America is different.  Obviously.

    Parent

    Can you take in some refugees? n/t (none / 0) (#101)
    by joanneleon on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:04:59 AM EST
    Hmm (none / 0) (#145)
    by CST on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:13:51 PM EST
    I disagree.  While I do think this campaign has been aweful and the media especially MSNBC was very sexist, I would not say we are more sexist than other countries.  Every time I travel I get harrased in ways I never do in this country (I have been to many places in Europe, as well as a few in South America and Africa).  While the media and acceptance of sexist statements may be more acceptable here, the personal freedom is much higher than in many countries.  I can walk down the street by myself without being yelled at (most of the time).  Europe is a lot worse in this regard than I was expecting, and the other countries were even worse.  FYI, I am not talking walking down the street in a dress either, but jeans and t-shirt style.

    Parent
    outside perspective on sexism (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by noholib on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:57:49 AM EST
    Just read this excellent New Statesman article!
    I sent it to some friends with the heading:
    "sometimes takes a Brit to have perspective on US".

    Parent
    I know (5.00 / 12) (#4)
    by sas on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:59:10 AM EST
    I will never get over the sexism in this campaign and the behavior of the MSM, particularly Olbermann, Matthews, Russert, all the rest of MSNBO and some commentators on CNN.

    The word "hate" isn't strong enough.

    Somehow (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by creeper on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:12:27 AM EST
    I expected it from Matthews and Russert.

    Olbermann's misogyny came as a shock.  Evidently everyone at NBC must drink a glass of kool-aid every day.  How else to explain the sudden insanity of the guy we thought had both brains and guts?

    Parent

    Didn't shock me (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by annabelly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:22:25 AM EST
    The man comes from the world of sports, inarguably one of the largest bastions of sexism in this country. It doesn't surprise me at all that he internalized such jocularity.  

    Parent
    During much of the GWBush error (5.00 / 11) (#5)
    by Josey on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:03:47 AM EST
    Dems have complained about having to cross the pond to get the facts because our media was so in bed with Bush.
    Since the media sold us Bush and is now selling us Obama, do you think the media will make any changes if Obama is president?
    btw - has anything surfaced that wasn't reported during the Clinton admin?


    I'm one of them (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by joanneleon on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:09:07 AM EST
    The Guardian and the BBC helped me keep my sanity during the 2000-05 range, before I found the progressive blogs.  Then some of the progressive blogs went off the rails and I am now changing my sources of information again.  

    Parent
    Add to sexism the lack of dissent (5.00 / 16) (#6)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:06:14 AM EST
    What I find particularly despicable is the same MSM that brought us the march to the Iraq war, was used by the Obama campaign, the blogs and the Obama supporters in the exact monolithic fashion we saw during the buildup to the war.  Honestly, Americans are not only sexist but they are easily manipulated and they have lost grip on the notion of democracy.  The same tactics of the right are now being applied by the left, while all the while they scream: Rovian.  

    I am truly disgusted.  Not only is Obama not qualified I tell you his movement and style is dangerous.  

    MSM Is Not Alone In This (5.00 / 14) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:27:50 AM EST
    The Democratic Party has either been silent on this issue or have joined the fray with Obama Reps. adding their own Glenn Close moments. I for one blame the Democratic Party even more than the media for not pushing back on this issue when it first reared its ugly head. As much as I hate the Republican Party, they would never have let the media do this to one of their female candidates. Disgusted is too mild a word to describe how I feel about this.

    Parent
    this is absolutley correct (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:38:21 AM EST
    Absolutely. I blame the party. (none / 0) (#74)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:31:54 AM EST
    question is (none / 0) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:52:29 AM EST
    what do we do now?

    Parent
    If I come up with something, I'll let you know. (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:16:00 AM EST
    I'm worse than disgusted. (none / 0) (#124)
    by magisterludi on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:30:08 AM EST
    I'm indifferent to the party now.

    Parent
    My view (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by sas on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:31:29 AM EST
    Obama is a demagogue.  He must be stopped.

    Parent
    I completely agree ... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Inky on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:01:26 AM EST
    If you open up the following link, you might appreciate the sixth picture down:

    http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/22/154328/760

    Parent

    Not Following (5.00 / 6) (#35)
    by Athena on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:34:48 AM EST
    Which is why it should not be rewarded with blind allegiance in November.

    Obama has gladly ridden all the Hillary-hatred and boy-worship to where he is now.

    And his latest attempts to salute Hillary and "a better world for his daughters" can be translated to: just a few more decades, sweeties.

    Parent

    I have "the movement" on notice (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:38:36 AM EST
    they need to find a replacement voter for me, so they better get started getting registered voters.  It's not that simple, I find the whole "movement" dangerous.  

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:43:08 AM EST
    it certainly seems to contain that potential.


    Parent
    Rewards female quitters who help male 'fighters' (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by Ellie on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:04:35 AM EST
    The daily absurdities are incredible. I've seen women run for office in far more (stereotypically) "macho" countries and be treated more seriously as candidates. (The sexism is still there but the histrionics surrounding Sen. Clinton's run is unlike anything I've ever witnessed.)

    I don't know whether this out-front discrimination is more a function of misogyny or some warped purely American puritannical obsession to shame women who venture outside the tiny niches "provided" for them. (Apply to non-conformists of any [fill in the attribute].)

    It's not always sex-based or purity/whore based, but a sense of outrage and obscenity relating more to category and boundary (and reactions to being seen outside one's category are similar to being caught cavorting in the village square with nothing but a wild hairdo and a tricked out ride.)

    That's why I call the rage over quite ordinary behavior from Sen Clinton (aka The Clintons) in the course of her campaign as another Clinton Naked Under Her Clothes moment. She's not supposed to be in it still. She's not supposed to win.

    The "Feminized" Dem pary also has to play by these Roolz, but sadly, they've chosen to go along with the crap rather than challenge it.

    Parent

    Projection (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by annabelly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:24:10 AM EST
    Is a classic tool of neoconservatism. Not surprising it also characterizes neoliberalism.

    Parent
    100% Agree (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:55:31 AM EST
    This is a rerun of 2000 and what we got certainly proved itself to be dangerous. What this country has lost under this administration is horrifying.

    Even FOX pundits say, "it's the democrats year" so they need to hijack the democrat who can carry on in the fashion of his predecessor.

    All the horrible things his campaign is doing gets a free pass by the DNC, the media, and his supporters. His casual, "this will all go my way in November" cocky attitude makes me wonder who's doing what behind the scenes, and why.

    We do need to get someone in the WH who understands the challenge ahead, who can handle both domestic and international issues, and who has a work ethic. That's not a description of Obama.


    Parent

    Oh Stella, Obama love is much richer than that (none / 0) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:43:14 AM EST
    Pre Obama, on some liberal blogs it was all the rage and fashion to call serving soldiers vitriolic names and blame them for Iraq, but as soon as the Demcrats took control and Iraq continued and Obama voted to fund the baby killers in Iraq - suddenly soldiers became human beings again......ewwwww, such hypocritical nasty evil losers.  I despise them, and my own family suffered a lot because I was stupid enough to blog at such blogs!

    Parent
    That's bound to happen (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:52:16 AM EST
    I would not be surprized to see the war gettting glowing reports again if obama is Presnit.

    Parent
    It will be funny.... (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by kdog on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:53:22 PM EST
    If Obama (or Clinton) is elected, all the brain-dead Democrats will cease calling it a bloody violent occupation, and instead call it a humanitarian mission.

    Meanwhile, brain-dead Republicans will cease calling it an epic struggle for our survival (lol), and call it a failed humanitarian effort.

    Doublespeak never fails to be entertaining to the trained ear.

    Parent

    And This Is Why (5.00 / 21) (#7)
    by The Maven on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:09:07 AM EST
    the failure of so much of the "progressive" blogosphere has been so distressing:

    I, among many others, had for several years held out the hope that the political blogs would continue to grow in legitimate authority such that they would be able to serve as a necessary corrective and supplement to the flaws in the traditional media.  Not, as some would have had it, to supplant and replace those older forms, but to act in a sense as sort of collective ombudsman, pushing and prodding the traditional media towards higher standards and doing a "better" job overall.

    Now, however, far too many prominent blogs and bloggers have fallen into the same traps which we used to decry, allowing double-standards and hypocrisy run rampant and uncorrected.  This damage will take a long, long time to repair, if indeed it ever can be.

    Too much of the blogosphere has permitted irrational hatred to take the place of reason, and permitted the blatantly sexist and misogynist bias in the traditional media to go wholly unchecked, shockingly even encouraging those views on occasions to numerous to note.

    I am reminded of an old saying (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:12:06 AM EST
    You become what you hate.

    Parent
    Alot of them have certainly squandered their (5.00 / 14) (#12)
    by cawaltz on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:15:28 AM EST
    credibility. The blatant double standards for the Clinton campaign have made it all but impossible for me to trust the word of many that I had once admired. It isn't even so much that I mind that their opinion is different than mine as much as I mind that they have attempted to sell their opinions as fact. I had expected better.

    Parent
    All Too True (5.00 / 8) (#53)
    by The Maven on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:54:39 AM EST
    It has been particularly difficult for me at times, because in the past, if I found a widening disagreement with the writing of someone I had once admired, it was relatively simple to merely move on and generally ignore or be scornful of the newer work.  Now I am faced with many individuals whom I not only respected, but had actually grown to know fairly well.

    Unlike our host for this story, BTD, who has said he remains on good personal terms with many of the folks he regularly rakes over the coals, I have always found it very hard to maintain much in the way of personal respect for anyone who engages in hypocritical posturing and double standards.  So, within a segment of the blogosphere, this has all been something of a double whammy, as it's hit me not only on the political level, but a personal one as well.  How can I tell these people that I now find them as offensive as the wingnuts and biased "journalists" against whom we used to stand arm in arm to oppose.  If they would at least concede some measure of the faults in their own behavior, I could accept that and move on, but their failure to do so leaves me pained.  I want again to fight the good fight together, but until I can see them as truly trustworthy allies, I must remain skeptical.

    Parent

    Indeed (5.00 / 15) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:20:44 AM EST
    Our hopes on this have been shattered.

    the Left blogs are no better than the Right blogs in that respect.

    Parent

    And "progressive: radio (none / 0) (#126)
    by nellre on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:33:13 AM EST
    Air America

    I'd rather listen to O'Reilly

    Parent

    Remember all the discussion (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Lahdee on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:29:04 AM EST
    a couple of years ago where lefty/progressive blogs were upset/insulted/outraged that the MSN didn't take them seriously? I don't agree that blogs are to be minimized, but it's hard to defend when their credibility is so damaged.

    Parent
    History (5.00 / 7) (#37)
    by Athena on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:37:03 AM EST
    I've posted this before - but it was the brutal sexism in the antiwar movement in the 60's that fueled the rise of the women's movement of that era.  It was the sexism of "allies" that proved to be too much.

    Parent
    a new women's movement? (5.00 / 7) (#62)
    by noholib on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:06:00 AM EST
    And now it's time for a new phase of the women's movement.  May be the only good thing to come out of this disgusting swamp of sexism/misogyny.

    Parent
    The only problem is (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by samanthasmom on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:59:28 AM EST
    that it appears that it is mostly just those of us who were part of the last one who care. I can't believe how many young women think they're come far enough already. I know not every woman was onboard last time.  Phyllis Schafley convinced my mom that passing the ERA would force her to share public bathrooms with men. But it's still depressing.

    Parent
    I don't want to get (none / 0) (#95)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:01:04 AM EST
    to deep into Psychology, but I recall that the Bolsheviks were a pacifist (antiwar) sounding group during ww1.  Obviously it was worth decryingthe pointless slaughter, however Lenin ushered in a civil war and genocide that killed more Russian citizens than the Kaiser ever did. He took to warfare in a manner that would have made Hindenburg or Haig blush. napoleon might have been appauled at the killings.

    I'm always slightly suspicious of the aims of "antiwar" sentiment. Sometimes it masks a fanatical belligerance that ought to be carefully vetted.

    Parent

    The Press Club (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:56:11 AM EST
    obviously smelled a rat in all the whining.

    Orly? You want Objktvty? Orly?  Not just Power or Prestige?

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:12:20 AM EST
    and those Obama blogs who plead for unity have been egging it on all along with the Obama campaign. These voters are not going to come home to Obama. Obama and his surrogates can assume all they want but it's too late. The totalitarism of the Obama campaign is creepily just like the Bush administration if you exchange the words "traitor" with "racist". Who wants another 4 years of that stuff?

    I do think it is too late (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by BarnBabe on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:42:09 AM EST
    I know how I feel. I don't see anything that could make my mind change at this point. I want a Dem as President but not to the extent that I would vote the wrong man for that job. I know the choices of McCain vs Obama. Neither are good. I have voted always the Dem for the good of the party. This time, for many reasons, I don't see me hitting a Obama lever.

    One of the reasons that I just recently realized is that the media would win on this. Yes, a horrible price to pay to make a protest vote, but we need to stop this sexism of the media. For MSNBC, their dislike of Hillary or anything Clinton was always there, but after she 'dared' to protest the Pimp statements of Schulster, a group revenge of the reporters has taken place. This would not be allowed in most large corporations if a female reported sexual harrassment and was then revenged upon. Yet, MSNBC has gotten away with it and blatenly at that.

    The entire country would be up in arms if the reporters called Obama the equilvent of what they call Hillary. If a entire bloc of voters can be moved because of what Bill said in SC, then can you imagine if insulting words were used at Obama? We know them all. We have heard some of the jokes already. We don't pass them on, but the Hillary ones are accepted as locker room norm. I am appalled at how the media has treated Hillary and take it personally as an assult on all women. The media is harrassing all women. I can not let that one go. I am a woman before I am a voter. I can not allow the media to choose my candidate and annoit their choice. Thus it comes down to BTD's solution of having them both on a ticket. And even that, we have to take a back stage according to the media. Go Hillary. Save us pleaseeeeeeeeeee.

    Parent

    McCain.... (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by jeffhas on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:01:57 AM EST
    I personally think that if McCain made an appeal for these Dem voters - and even suggested that he would be held to a standard enforced by what appears to be a strong Dem Majority in both houses, he could easily peel away traditional Dem voters - (GASP) - like myself.

    It isn't just the sexism... but the race-baiting, truthiness of His associations, 'we are the ones we've been waiting for' Messianic-MOVEMENT-speak that have me longing for some good ol' down to earth straight talk (regardless of the source).

    Parent

    Yes it is an assault on all of us (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by Foxx on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:55:52 AM EST
    I have been incredibly depressed, I can't shake it. If it is affecting me this way, think of the millions of young girls who are so much more vulnerable.

    Parent
    The ONLY way to change the media (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:04:51 AM EST
    is to stop watching, cancel subscriptions, and refuse to buy the papers and magazines off the rack. They are driven by the money.

    You think our youth is going to start watching MSNBC or CNN? Or buy Time, or Newsweek?

    I can't reward the people who are calling their valued viewers stupid, and manipulating them to improve the bottom line of those at the top.

    Stop watching! Your vote will never teach the media a lesson.


    Parent

    The only legal way! (none / 0) (#105)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:07:07 AM EST
    There are other ways like the russian methods. you could also buy them out as corporations.

    Parent
    Sponsors (none / 0) (#119)
    by nellre on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:25:28 AM EST
    Boycott products. That works too.
    Or complain to the sponsors.

    Parent
    It helps, but (none / 0) (#130)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:36:54 AM EST
    the sponsors go away when the ratings fall. They aren't looking for the cheapest advertising, they are looking to reach the biggest share of the target demographic with TV advertising. Without the viewership, they can't give their advertising away.


    Parent
    Please explain why you think (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:46:32 AM EST
    your vote for McCain will teach the media a lesson re sexism against Clinton?

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:51:25 AM EST
    I don't know if it would teach the media but is sure would teach the DNC wouldn't it?

    Parent
    I doubt it. DNC doesn't listen well (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by oculus on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:57:33 AM EST
    to others.

    Parent
    You could (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:05:42 AM EST
    construct an an argument that voting for Obama is tantamount to condoning sexism in politics.

    Hillary lost votes on the IWR with a similar reward/punishment argument.   Obama exploitation of the IWR issue and the construct of his argument could easily be turned on him.

    Parent

    I didn't say vote for McCain (none / 0) (#67)
    by BarnBabe on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:19:49 AM EST
    You are figuring that if I do not vote for Obama, then I vote for McCain. If I have heard right, my vote is not needed anyway, so why should it matter really. Maybe it is my own personal protest and I will be stoned to death, but I will have just not rolled over because I was told I have to. I am still a Democrat and will vote for Democrats who can make the reality of taking back the powers to the legislators from the Presidency. Isn't that what this is all about anyway? To put Obama in?

    Parent
    Excuse me (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:19:55 AM EST
    Totalitarianism? You need to get a grip.

    Parent
    No, but.... (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by lambertstrether on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:23:27 AM EST
    ... the virus is there, possibly dormant, but there. It is, I think, present in all or most of us. It's not confined, in a binary manner, to members of this or that party.

    My great failing with the Bush administration was not to be paranoid and cynical enough, though I tried mightily to be.


    Parent

    BTD I think it's not far fetched (5.00 / 8) (#20)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:24:18 AM EST
    the total stifling of opposition with smearing campaigns smacks of the worse of political tactics.  I do find it rather disturbing since his campaign is a narrative that the administration will be focused on sustaining the narrative and keeping the fans loyal.  Totalitarianism does not have to now be with a boot and a gulag, it has layers of sophistication.  

    Parent
    Not to mention (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by annabelly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:32:58 AM EST
    That the race-baiting "leaked" memo coming from the Obama campaign before SC is very analogous to Bush's "McCain has a black baby" leak. It's the flip side of the same coin. Which is quickly the conclusion I'm coming to when I compare Republicans and Democrats these days.

    Parent
    Sorry (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:27:16 AM EST
    but screaming down any criticism of Obama as racist comes off to me as the same thing W. did. I've certainly never called policy attacks sexism.

    Parent
    Obama will probably cut loose (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:03:14 AM EST
    the more embarrassing hangers on.

    He's a centrist at heart, he's just been mining dissaffected antiwar leftists for their primary support.

    He'll tell them to sod off before too long.

    Parent

    Is it usual for a campaign to have all of the (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by samanthasmom on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:35:15 AM EST
    money that would normally go to various groups that are not actually part of a campaign but support the campaign go only to the campaign?  This seems awfully controlling to me.

    Parent
    Discounting racism is just stupid (none / 0) (#66)
    by samtaylor2 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:17:41 AM EST
    I don't understand why in one hand you can see sexism (which there is a lot to see), but discount the racism many black men and women see and feel

    Parent
    I see it (5.00 / 7) (#71)
    by BarnBabe on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:25:26 AM EST
    And I understand it, but you are missing the point. The media has been able to say things about Hillary and women that if said about a AA person would cause major havoc. Look at Imus. What he said was deplorable and he was taken to task for it. But, the media is using the same type of expressions on Hillary and it is accepted. Double standard. BTW, I don't want them to start making ugly statements about Obama just because he happens to be AA. I just want the media to stop slamming Hillary and women in general.

    Parent
    O/T -- and please do not again (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by Cream City on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:19:30 PM EST
    attempt to hijack this or other discussions of sexism.  The post to which you reply does not in the least discount racism.  And every time -- on this blog and elsewhere -- we attempt to discuss sexism, along comes someone to confuse it with discussion of racism.  

    It's one of the msm tricks.  Don't try it here.  There are plenty of discussions of racism.  Wait for one here or go find another blog to discuss it now.

    Parent

    It's not (none / 0) (#117)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:18:52 AM EST
    discounting racism but seeing racism where it doesn't exist that is the problem. Any criticism of Obama's policies are called "racist". How is criticizing a policy "racist" do tell?

    Parent
    Accusations (none / 0) (#165)
    by Evie on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:03:43 PM EST
    of racism may be used as a shield and a sword. A shield to deflect valid criticisms by attributing racism as the motive. And a sword to undermine the credibility of the critics.

    Going back to the topic at hand, sexism cannot be defended or excused by pointing to racism ("let's talk about the real problem - racism - instead!") or lack of racism ("at least we're not racist!").

    Parent

    BTD, you missed what I feel is the most (5.00 / 12) (#10)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:12:55 AM EST
    pertinent part of the article:
    The danger is that, in their headlong rush to stop the first major female candidate (aka "Hildebeast" and "Hitlery") from becoming president, the punditocracy may have landed the Democrats with perhaps the least qualified presidential nominee ever.


    I honestly have started to think (5.00 / 7) (#11)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:15:20 AM EST
    I am not sure which prospect I find more scary.
    his losing or his winning.


    Parent
    I found that statement (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:19:13 AM EST
    absurd and ridiculous. It is not important at all. It is false.

    Parent
    why? (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by sarahfdavis on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:22:57 AM EST
    Why is it not important? why is it false?

    Parent
    I dont know (5.00 / 6) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:26:29 AM EST
    I am starting to see a lot of parallels to the Bush2 run up to the White House.  it seems like the whole "someone to have a beer with" has morphed into "someone to have a latte with" for the other side of the political spectrum and it is just as silly and misguided a basis on which to pick a president.
    we have lived through 8 years of on the job training for the president.  I am not sure we can take 4 or 8 more.
    my outlook has become more and more grim over the past few weeks.
    I hope you are right and I am wrong.

    Parent
    Capt Howdy, that is it in a nutshell! (5.00 / 0) (#76)
    by abfabdem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:33:17 AM EST
    "it seems like the whole "someone to have a beer with" has morphed into "someone to have a latte with" for the other side of the political spectrum."

    Brilliant observation!!  The electorate is so shallow.  (Sigh.)

    Parent

    Bush was actually more qualified (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Foxx on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:04:04 AM EST
    and if that doesnt make you lose sleep (5.00 / 0) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:07:10 AM EST
    I cant imagine what it would take.

    Parent
    and the article limited to (none / 0) (#135)
    by ding7777 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:49:59 AM EST
    Democratic presidential nominees

    Parent
    Heh. I don't. I find that (5.00 / 11) (#27)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:27:51 AM EST
    my original reason for not supporting Obama. A woman with his lack of resume would have been laughed out before the primaries even started. I found the statement to be dead-on.

    Parent
    Big Tent Democrat (5.00 / 0) (#131)
    by ding7777 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:39:53 AM EST
    Who are the other Democratic presidential nominees who were less qualified than Obama?

    Parent
    To me, the saddest thing (5.00 / 7) (#13)
    by frankly0 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:18:17 AM EST
    about this election is that it has put back the cause of true equality for women so many years -- maybe decades.

    Not only has the Pandora's Box of sexist language and attitudes been re-opened, but it's very likely that we won't see another woman candidate with a real shot at the nomination for a generation. (Really, who else is in the wings with anything resembling Hillary's credentials and truly remarkable mastery of the issues? The only name I've ever seen mentioned as someone being groomed for national office is Kathleen Sibelius, and all I can say is that the way she came across in her response to the State of the Union address was completely underwhelming. How might she win where Hillary -- so much more in command of herself and of the issues -- have failed?)

    who would want to suffer the slings and arrows? (none / 0) (#110)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:10:13 AM EST
    she prepped for this for about 15 years creating a singular and unique brand.

    Taken down in a hail of MSNBC politiking.

    Parent

    4 to 8 years (none / 0) (#118)
    by nellre on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:20:03 AM EST
    Hillary will, if she doesn't get it this time, will run again in 2012 or 2016.

    Parent
    I doubt it--'less it is as an incumbent (none / 0) (#140)
    by Molly Pitcher on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:02:36 PM EST
    The Left Blogosphere's Growth (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by bob h on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:25:46 AM EST
    The sad thing is the so called progressive blogs have behaved in the exact same fashion as NBC.

    was fuelled by the unity of opposition to the Bush catastrophe.  When he passes, and Obama loses as I expect, the left blogosphere will basically die because we will not have a common target of opprobrium and respect for the elite blogs has been ruined.

    The worst offenders have been MSNBC (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by carmel on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:27:30 AM EST
    and I'm still waiting for that pompous blowhard Keith Olbermann to either take Obama's campaign for task for their sexism or apologize to Geraldine Ferraro for going over the top with his 5 minute rant calling her a racist. Actually, he should do both.

    Now sexisn is sanctioned, all over again... (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by lambertstrether on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:28:14 AM EST
    ... to talk to all women and all girls exactly as the press, the Obama fan base, and Obama talk to them.

    Grossly sexist, and misogynist language and actions are now sanctioned at the highest (or, rather, lowest and scummiest) levels of our society.

    Those affected would be your daughters, wives, mothers, grandmothers, friends, and so on and so forth. And we men, of course, if we put up with it or enable it.

    How is that good?

    Let alone progressive?


    I agree with this but.... (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:01:13 AM EST
    ...I wonder why my daughter doesn't? She's extremely progressive in every other way but she's bought into some kind of post feminist thing that I honestly don't get. I get the notion is that it is okay to say anything you want to about someone who is perceived as the enemy. This I do understand because I've done it myself, even though I wouldn't characterize it as the moral high ground. But the part I don't get is how you can look at all of this misogyny and think.."that's about Hillary Clinton, its not about me."

    Parent
    Being "progressive" (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Foxx on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:26:25 AM EST
    on other issues is what females are trained to do, take care of other people (I bet you did your best to counteract it, but there is a whole world out there). Feeling your own oppression and sticking up for yourself is a lot harder, as many of us know.

    An awful lot of young women are in denial about their own oppression. I don't believe these young men gleefully fantasizing about assaulting Hillary are non-abusive in their personal lives. I don't believe these young women are free from any of the forms of physical and sexual assault.  I know they don't have the same economic opportunities as their male friends.

    What does your daughter think of genital mutilation, honor killings, purdah? Does her denial extend to other cultures?

    Parent

    Absolutely not. She just doesn't see it here. (none / 0) (#175)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:56:38 PM EST
    Correction!!! (none / 0) (#33)
    by lambertstrether on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:32:36 AM EST
    By "lowest and scummiest" I mean the press and the Village, not the Obama fan base or Obama. Sorry!

    Parent
    Have women let liberal men off too easy? (5.00 / 7) (#31)
    by ruffian on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:29:12 AM EST
    Maybe we been just happy to have our reproductive rights defended and not demanded that sexism in other forms be denounced (and rejected) in the blogosphere.  I have voted with my mouse and just not give them my traffic, but maybe a more aggressive approach is required!

    Sold Out Cheaply (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by Athena on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:42:59 AM EST
    Could not agree more - women have to stopped being "hypnotized" by "Roe v. Wade."   As though any leftie can simply command women Stepford style by scaring them with this mantra.  That's way too simplistic and it's way too easy.

    And I'm at the point that if women cannot recognize their collective political status and support one of their own (as African-Americans did, wonderfully) - then they will learn the hard way.  But for those of us who are tired of waiting...well...

    Parent

    This speaks what my generation must deal with (none / 0) (#72)
    by samtaylor2 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:28:14 AM EST
    This discussion points to racism and sexism as though they are mutually exclusive issues.  When you write, "women cannot recognize their collective political status and support own of their own (as African Americans did wonderfully)" what the language implies is white women- and not women/ female/ XX.  I think it made sense years ago to discuss these issues as Black issues, and womens issues- as they are simpler to discuss and gain traction. Unfortunately, by framing it in these ways we have left out  Black women, latino women,etc.  Hopefully we can change the language of this discussion to allow these women will to act as the much needed  bridge between gender and race.  It is trully painful to see so many allies discount one "ism" in their fight against the other "ism".  I know many of you feel me on that.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Athena on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:59:00 AM EST
    You're right - they are not mutually exclusive - but they are not advancing at the same rate.  And I recognize that Black women are at the juncture of both, and are left out of simple verbal formulations.  However, it seems that many Black women this year did vote for a racially-identical candidate, rather than a woman - that's interesting.

    Parent
    For me "women" is all women (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Foxx on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:49:43 AM EST
    "Women" doesn't exclude women of color anymore than "black" excludes black women.

    It is true that for many "feminism" and "women's rights" conjures images of white middle and upper class women only. And people of color do this as well, all the time. What this does is make the sexism women of color experience invisible. It makes it look like all their suffering is about race. In my experience, white feminists (I am one) care deeply about ALL women.

    Parent

    Liberal blogosphere (5.00 / 9) (#47)
    by Coral on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:43:13 AM EST
    The most popular blogs, with the exception of Atrios and the woman-led Firedoglake, have tolerated and at times reveled in misogynistic repartee long before this campaign.

    I have tried to ignore it, as I thought it was important to have lively, enthusiastic partisanship on behalf of progressive issues and candidates.

    It became virulent somewhere in late fall, early winter, and since then I have shut them out.

    I have no more stomach for it, and cannot read them anymore.

    Parent

    There are also sins of omission.... n/t (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by jawbone on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:53:39 AM EST
    You're on to something ... (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by santarita on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:40:04 AM EST
    I cringed at the coarse sexism in the "progressive" blogs well before Clinton-Obama became the issue.  At that time it was aimed primarily at Condi Rice and Laura Bush.  And it was generally confined to a few  comments rather than diaries.  But the floodgates have been opened.  Maybe this kind of discourse should be stopped when it is aimed at anyone, including opposing party figures.

    Parent
    Even-Handed (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Athena on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:00:31 AM EST
    In my past life on DK, I did point that out, even with right wing nut females - but I got slammed for it.

    Parent
    Yes and I confess I was guilty of it... (none / 0) (#104)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:07:02 AM EST
    ...particularly when it came to Ann Coulter. She is reprehensible in more ways than I could recount in one post, but it was never necessary to call her a man. I laughed at those jokes because I hated her. Which is how I know that Hillary Clinton is hated by some people who vehemently deny it. I like to think that my hatred of Ann Coulter is rational, but is it? Is any hatred rational? The answer to that question should be obvious, but is it?

    Parent
    Coulter woudn't (none / 0) (#112)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:13:08 AM EST
    piddle on you if you were on fire.

      She's ONE of the enemy in a very profound way.

    Parent

    IMO They Have Not Done A Particurly Good (5.00 / 8) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:44:51 AM EST
    job at defending our reproductive rights either or the Republicans would not have been able to chip away at them so successfully.

    Parent
    My gosh (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Steve M on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:36:34 AM EST
    That is a powerful piece.

    Nightly Horror Shows, INDEED! (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by northeast73 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:37:52 AM EST
    Watching MSNBC is painful.  Just painful.

    They have no shame...Russert is a gasbag.  Matthews is a MORON, Olbermann is a shameless hack.

    I dont watch it anymore (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:41:31 AM EST
    havent for weeks except for morning joe once in a while and I find my general well being has increased exponentially.
    just leaving Tweety and Olberman behind was enough.  
    MSNBC has become a global punch line.

    Parent
    Same here.. (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:28:44 AM EST
    It's odd. I feel much more calm and balanced since I turned off MSNBC and CNN during the day. I work from home so before they were always on in my office, living room and kitchen.

    Now I watch Morning Joe and Lou freaking Dobbs for crying out loud. I feel like I am in bizzaro world. But they seem to be the only ones calling it like they see it and being brutally honest about what's going on.

    Parent

    I have switched to the classical music (none / 0) (#77)
    by abfabdem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:39:01 AM EST
    radio station.  After 9/11 I found I couldn't handle pop/rock stations and classical filled the spiritual void.  Then Air America got going and I listened to that all the time.  But now that's impossible so it's back to the three B's once more (Bach, Brahams, Beethoven).

    Parent
    We will NOT get over it. (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by rise hillary rise on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:39:33 AM EST
    Dean, Pelosi, Reid, as "leaders" of what used to be known as the Democratic Party, you are accountable for enabling this in your quest to anoint Obama as the first black nominee. None of you have spoken out against the vitriol dumped on Hillary (and Chelsea) over the last 6 months.

    From "how do we beat the b***h" to "Iron my shirt" to "pimping her out" to "cleavage" to use of words like "shrew" "harridan" "shrill" the nastiness has come from all sides. I don't recall any point at which anyone from the Dem leadership-or the Obama campaign- has spoken out against these slurs contemporaneously. It's been up to Hillary and her campaign to fight back against them, and for that she was also pilloried.

    While I realize that any woman who was going to run as the first female (Democrat) candidate was going to get a lot of sexism aimed at her (just as Obama has and will be subject to race-based attacks), "our" side's complicity will not be forgotten.  

    But they only do it to Hillary not all women! (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by abfabdem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:40:35 AM EST
    Yea right, we'll see who comes to Michelle Obama's defense when she gets on their radar.

    Parent
    May 22nd, 3 primaries remaining, NewsHour (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by jawbone on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:52:18 AM EST
    finally had segment on the sexism (don't believe they used the word "misogyny"), a debate between Marie Coco and Ruth Marcus.  Even Marcus, who has done her share of Hillary slagging, could not deny there was "some" sexism.

    Coco actually named Shuster and the NMB/MSNBC crowd.  While Shuster was the only person called out by name, for his "pimping out" Chelsea comment, she did talk about millionaire pundits and analysts.

    No mention of MoDo or Frank Rich and the NYTimes attakcers - er - reporters.

    Pat Schroder interview on NPR (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by oculus on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:01:08 AM EST
    yesterday about Clinton's campaign and sexism:

    SCHROEDER

    Most media is still a boy's club (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Exeter on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:02:55 AM EST
    And many women that have broken into the business still have the mindset that they have to be "one of the boys" to be accepted. Unfortunately, whether you're talking about Andrea Mitchell, Nora O'Donnell or Campbell Brown, or really all of them, they feel like to be "one of the boys" they have to trash Clinton. The Linda Ellerbys in the media don't seem to last long when they don't fall in line. It's pretty embarassing that the SNL skit about NBC wasn't as bad as it really is!

    From the standpoint of someone who (none / 0) (#137)
    by Molly Pitcher on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:54:07 AM EST
    majored in journalism in the dark ages (the early 50s) the media 'business' today is pitiful--all media.  No grammar, no mastery of prose, little grasp of the '5 w's,' no understanding of the difference between news writing and editorial writing.  That goes for both sexes.  Linda Ellerby and Molly Ivvins--bright and shining stars.

    And the fact that newspapers are sponsoring blogs--I think that has helped lower the tone of writing, as so-called journalists see ever lower standards 'published'.

    Parent

    USA sexism is pervasive in many ways. (5.00 / 6) (#60)
    by wurman on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:03:38 AM EST
    Some sexist behaviors are subtle, some blatant & some outrageous.  With six decades of observation in my fading memory, it is very clear that there have been massive changes--even in the media.  It has mostly changed for the better & there are more & more women in more positions of power on a yearly basis.  Even the media, itself, has hired scores of women in a total shift from the reality I saw as a youngster.

    What strikes me, coup d'main, about the lame stream media, the blogs & the rightwingnutz noise machine is the absolutely vitriolic hatred of Hillary Rodham Clinton.  It seems to me that she is targeted with a radically more vicious level of disdain than females in general.

    And, while internet psychoanalysis is silly, the attitudes toward Sen. Clinton by these kreeeepy people (male & female) seems pathological.

    It really is astonishing to realize the insane behavior she can inspire, especially in comparison to, e.g., Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein, Murray, Lincoln, Stabenow, Mikulski, Hutchinson, Snowe, Frahm, Landrieu, Collins, etc.  And notice: all of those named are senior to her in their respective elected roles &, presumably, in many ways, more powerful.  Even so, while they have their detractors, they have no comparison to the attacks on "Mrs." Clinton.

    It defies analysis.  Bizarre.

    Clinton Derangement Syndrome-why? (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by noholib on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:11:59 AM EST
    You mention several other women in high political office.  Maybe the outstanding brilliance of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton -- far and away superior to any of the other women mentioned and to almost all most male politicians -- is what brings forth the deranged vitriol.  Just wondering.  Alas, a truly brilliant woman has usually been perceived as a very dangerous thing (I wrote thing advisedly, since such a woman is often denied her personhood.)

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:40:59 AM EST
    (from the same age perspective)

    In many ways, it's been the scorn and derision that's bothered me far more than the frankly sexist stuff.


    Parent

    They feel threatened (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by nellre on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:12:15 AM EST
    And they feel threatened because of Hillary's gender.
    If she were male, they'd feel awe.

    My 2 cents

    Parent

    The first woman to get this far (none / 0) (#161)
    by Cream City on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:50:38 PM EST
    no matter who she was, was going to put the spotlight on sexism in our society and media.  

    It simply was a lower wattage when dozens of other women ran for president since the 1870s, because they didn't get this far.  I.e., this article is incorrect in citing her as the first -- but it is so spot on, as the Brits say, in so much else that I hope to see Andrew Stephen learn a bit more and write a lot more about this, since our media will not do so -- or at least will be incapable of doing so as well, since even those who begin to write about it write of the media as not including themselves.  Thus, they cannot discuss it well.

    It has been exacerbated in Clinton's case not only because she is the first woman to win a primary -- that's when it accelerated -- but also because Obama played the old trick of making it about racism vs. sexism.  That has been done to women by so-called "reformers" since the 1820s.  He may not realize it, as he is so ahistorical in much of what he says -- but the boys' playbook comes naturally to him in many other ways as well.  

    I would vote for Clinton on my issues, anyway.  And I can't vote against the media or society for this.  But I can vote against sexism as done by Obama by voting for Clinton, even if it means a write-in vote.  

    And yes, I will -- in part for all the women who couldn't vote against this age-old game when it was done to them.  Obama is not fighting for the issues or fighting with the sort of campaign that good men and great women fought to win for us.  


    Parent

    The pendulum swings (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by livesinashoe on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:08:20 AM EST
    IMO what we are seeing is Left Wing Authoritarianism (a la Bob Altemeyer) I wonder how much the rise of LWA has had to do with our recent bout with RWA in this country.

    I suggest a review of Altemeyer's work, which is available for free online, as well as a review of Eric Hoffer's "True Believers:  The Psychology of Mass Movements."

    The pendulum is swinging between two ideologies.  Both these ideologies come from the same "place" in the psyche of humans.   The rise of one guarantees the eventual rise of the other in an attempt to restore some sort of balance within the collective "mind."

    Let's not forget CNN (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Sunshine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:24:34 AM EST
    Then there's Jack Cafferty with his daily jabs at Hillary (none at Obama) so Wolf can stay above it all...  
    CNN is just more sneaky...
    They all like women but just wish they would stay in their place....

    I read the whole article (5.00 / 7) (#90)
    by joanneleon on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:58:52 AM EST
    It was excellent.  And rare.  Exotic even.  Very foreign.  In the very best of ways.  You won't find anything like it in the American media.

    Well, at least somebody gets it.  

    I thought the quote by Krugman was good.  He's a real hero in all of this, IMHO, but boy, has he taken a beating for it.  I will always be grateful to him for standing up though, just as he stood up and spoke the truth about the Bush/Cheney administration when it was a very unpopular thing to do.  He's earned a rare distinction as one who is trustworthy in the media.


    "What's particularly saddening," says Paul Krugman, professor of economics and international affairs at Princeton and a rare dissenting voice from the left as a columnist in the New York Times, "is the way many Obama supporters seem happy with the . . . way pundits and some news organisations treat any action or statement by the Clintons, no matter how innocuous, as proof of evil intent." Despite widespread reporting to the contrary, Krugman believes that most of the "venom" in the campaign "is coming from supporters of Obama".

    Does it seem at all familiar to anyone that Axelrove is successfully accusing Hillary of doing what he himself is doing?  Does anyone feel the Orwellian nature of this campaign?  It's the Republican Smear Machine adapted for so-called liberals.  It's got all my red flags waving, and it has from the start.

    How could people be so gullible and so foolish?  Or is it just that they are too afraid to stand up and speak against the media and the mob?


    To resist is futile (none / 0) (#107)
    by nellre on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:08:09 AM EST
    We will be assimilated.

    Or

    Accept Obama into your hearts and you will be saved.

    Those under the Obama spell have a permanent disfiguring smirk on their faces.

    Parent

    Again (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:59:40 AM EST
    The only way the Obama blogs will learn is if you make their hero pay the price for their sins.

    They simply don't care nor do they have any shame.  

    It is MONUMENTALLY stupid to think the people who care about this are just going to say "No problem" when the damage is NOW DONE.

    The time to notice any of this was 8 months ago.  The UK's New Statesman is merely so late to notice that one wonders if they weren't aware AND complicit.  Not that they would be as a UK paper, but the point I make is the same.

    IT DOES NO F-ING GOOD TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS NOW.

    NONE AT ALL!!!!!!

    The Democratic Party did not do anything, the Obama blogs cheered, and Obama himself used it as an issue (can you imagine if Clinton said "someone who was attacked too much -- presumably because he was black -- is in no position to unite the country --"??)

    .... and so the Obama blogs and the Democratic Party must be punished, not rewarded at the polls in November.

    It's the only way.

    It doesn't work (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Steve M on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:17:16 AM EST
    A lot of people in 2000 thought they were going to send a message by voting for Nader.

    Did it work?  Did the message get sent?  Did the Democratic Party modify its behavior in any way whatsoever to mollify the Nader voters?

    Of course not.  Nader voters get spit on.  As a matter of empirical reality, what you're proposing just doesn't work.

    Even if disaffected Clinton supporters manage to swing the election to McCain, the reaction will not be "Gosh, I guess we shouldn't have treated them with such sexism and contempt."  The reaction will be "that b*tch cost us the election!"

    This is just reality.  Everyone is free to vote as they please, but no "message" will be sent regardless of what happens.

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:26:56 AM EST
    A message did get sent.

    And even though I disagree with that message, even though I think Obama is being disingenuous on the issue, one of the reasons why he's running as an "outsider" or someone who doesn't take lobbyist money (even though he does) is because that message -- coming from Nader -- did get sent.

    And it was received.


    Parent

    If withholding votes and money (5.00 / 4) (#136)
    by RalphB on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:51:41 AM EST
    doesn't work, then what do you propose?  Go along to get along?  Beg for a little dignity?  Write comments on some blog and then vote with the herd?

    How about standing up and doing the only things that the parties understand?  Withhold your money and your votes.  Snarky posts don't punish political parties, losing elections does.


    Parent

    I'm with you, RalphB (none / 0) (#141)
    by samanthasmom on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:03:57 PM EST
    Right now, I'm going Green. Cynthia McKinney it is.  But keep getting under my skin, and it will be that "crazy old uncle" who says things I don't always agree with, but well, he's just that way sometimes. I figure a vote for Uncle John counts twice.

    Parent
    sent (none / 0) (#125)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:32:02 AM EST
    but recieved

    Parent
    duh (none / 0) (#148)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:26:07 PM EST
    that should say

    but NOT received

    Parent

    absolutely right! (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by RalphB on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:41:36 AM EST
    They are an effing English paper. (none / 0) (#114)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:14:07 AM EST
    They do not have to do the American media's work for them.

    Parent
    Not really the point (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:28:05 AM EST
    I agree.

    In fact that it takes an effing brit rag to do their work for them now, when it's far too late, is simply re-inforcing my point.


    Parent

    So... (none / 0) (#139)
    by rottenart on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:02:10 PM EST
    you're willing to risk 4-8 more years of these disastrous policies that are killing people, keeping them down, enriching a handful, destroying the environment, shredding the constitution... you're willing to all let that continue in order to make a point? And to make a point to BLOGGERS no less?

    To me, that seems a more than a little cynical and a helluva lot of crazy.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:09:06 PM EST
    To make a point about sexism.

    This is not just about bloggers, media, and/or Obama himself as such although they are the guilty parties, this is about what's acceptable in society at large with respect to how women are treated.

    Everyone makes their own decision.

    But before you judge, I want you to consider something, walk an inch or two in the other set of shoes.  Pretend you wake up one day and you turn on the TV and you hear "Obama's a Unity pimp."

    And that's acceptable.

    Parent

    Try this on for size too (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Edgar08 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:31:42 PM EST
    Clinton was compared to a character played by Glenn Close in a movie.

    Wake up one day and pretend someone had a big chuckle over how Obama's just like Melvin Van Peeble's in Sweetback's Badasssssssss Song.

    Most of you just don't know cause deep down you think it was acceptable the way Clinton was treated.

    Parent

    Yes, I can. Yes, I will. (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by Cream City on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:34:32 PM EST
    And I don't care a whit or give a d**n for those who think it's cynical -- yes, I am -- or crazy for me to put priority on my issues to make a point.  Not to bloggers but to the Dem party, which claims my issues as part of its principles and platform just to get my vote but then treats women abominably.  And not just in this campaign but for years now in supporting candidates who oppose those principles and that plank in the party's own platform.

    You vote on your issues, you make your point, but I won't call it cynical or crazy.  I will call you dismissive of me and my issues.  And that is not persuasive.  Go try it on some sweetie young thing who has yet to learn what we have seen for years.

    Parent

    oops... (none / 0) (#142)
    by rottenart on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:04:02 PM EST
    the comment I was replying to was deleted. But the question also goes to anyone considering not voting or voting for Mccain.

    Parent
    What would be the difference? (none / 0) (#143)
    by MMW on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:06:40 PM EST
    What is Obama going to do to help the people who need it?

    Or the environment, or shredding the constitution?

    Edgar is absolutely RIGHT. If you want representation you must demand it, not roll over and hope a crumb lands your way.

    Get some new talking points.

    Parent

    I shouldn't have to point your way (none / 0) (#146)
    by rottenart on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:15:40 PM EST
    towards Obama's energy policy proposals, or his positions on oversight, health care, education, judicial nominations, etc. They're laid out in plain view on his web site. The question is whether you think Mccain would be preferable to Obama on these issues. Do you?

    I don't think adequate representation starts from the top down anyway. We should be fighting for more and better Democrats from our local city councils all the way up to Congress. That's how change happens. I do, however, think that the top banana affects how those other representatives do their jobs and represent us.

    You dismiss my argument out of hand, but you won't engage it. I suppose you'll be quite satisfied with Mccain representing you then? He comes closer to your positions than Obama does? It's not a talking point, it's a valid question that you won't answer. This isn't about rolling over; it's about our country and our children's future.

    Parent

    I'm tired of seeing... (none / 0) (#160)
    by NotThatStupid on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:57:56 PM EST
    ... no-hope Democrats winning the nomination.

    But that's not the reasoning I will be basing my vote on in the Fall.

    I refuse to vote for a candidate who is patently not qualified to be President. One to whom expediency matters more than principle, who has not one ounce of moral courage, and who looks down upon those he would govern.

    Should Senator Obama be the Democratic candidate I apologize in advance to any women who feel that the SG2RvW argument should trump his lack of qualifications.

    Parent

    the "what sexism?" insult to injury (5.00 / 4) (#103)
    by Lisa on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:06:35 AM EST
    All innocence in comments on the blogs, the Obama people say, "Sexism, you say?  Really?  I'm being serious, can you tell me where that happened?"  That must be in the playbook.  If their eyes and ears have been malfunctioning lately, they can bloody well try GOOGLE.

    Yep. That's to get us to go away to do (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Cream City on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:36:52 PM EST
    the work of finding the evidence and links, only to come back too late as the discussion moved on. . . .

    I'm done with that trick.  I'm done with it on this blog, too, and have told more than a few of those fly-by commenters so.  Just say search the archives.  They won't.  They want women to do all the work -- the work of showing the problem, the work of fixing the problem, because sexism is "our problem."

    Parent

    The Media have (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Salo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:08:36 AM EST
    been inordinately pro obama and anti clinton.  

    Soon they may turn on obama when he get 's his nomination wrapped up.  but they have promoted him to the exclusion of all other Dem candidates.

    Sexist women (5.00 / 4) (#127)
    by BoGardiner on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:34:46 AM EST
    Are always the hardest to take.  (I'm a woman, BTW).

    Many liberals are now pointing to them to excuse their bigotry, but they should remember their history.  Sexist women have always played a significant (though not the major) role in oppressing women.  There have always been the Phyllis Schlaflys and Marabelle Morgans, going back to suffrage days and beyond.

    It seems there are roughly about the same number of misogynist women as men; perhaps it's always been so.  In Quinnipiac's swing state polls this week, men and women were about equally likely to say they were somewhat or very likely to be uncomfortable supporting a woman President.  (And in all states, these numbers were much larger than for discomfort with black candidates.)

    Misogynist women have always been around, however few, yet disproportionately visible, and should therefore lend zero to the new sexism.

    Schlafly was, and is, of course, conservative.  Morgan was more dangerous in many ways, a younger, more hip, apolitical trendsetter.  The inevitable next step, once feminism went boringly mainstream, was for outrageous and trendy, liberal and anti-intellectual women like Randi Rhodes to assume Schlafly's mantle.

    Obama supporters are lifting these women as figureheads for political goals, and the media are making them stars since it's great TV yet "safe" to have a woman say things men can't.

    Perhaps it will take Europe's intellectual liberals to embarrass our liberals out of this disease.

    Ladies and gentlemen, we've got a real problem on our hands.  I truly thought these days were over.  I did not see this coming.

    Schlafley is on a local radio (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Molly Pitcher on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:43:22 AM EST
    station (good music, tho--just turn off the repubs).  She makes me furious--seems to me she is a huge proponent of women staying out of 'men's business.'  So--why is she taking up space as a constitutional lawyer?

    As  to 'misogynist' women, try this: they know which side their bread is buttered on, and maybe don't want a smack in the mouth for saying what they really think.  Sort of like the slaves who told massa, 'You sure do treat us good here."

    Parent

    Yep. Classic co-optation (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Cream City on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:57:04 PM EST
    called "Uncle Toms" in terms of racism (quite unfairly to Josiah Henley, the real-life hero whose autobiography was the basis of Harriet Beecher Stowe's book, btw -- his is a remarkable story).

    So, since the suffragists called such women "antis," I suggest we refer to them as "Auntie Anns" -- in honor of a classic case of this, Ann Coulter.

    Parent

    Auntie Anns! (none / 0) (#167)
    by BoGardiner on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:18:45 PM EST
    Love it!

    I don't know, does Coulter really deserve to have anything named after her?  Maybe we can find something else...

    Drat, my cat just tossed up a hairball.

    Hey...

    Parent

    Yes, it always has been so -- (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by Cream City on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:41:58 PM EST
    see anti-suffragists, whom the suffragists called "antis," pronounced aunties.  Only in the campaign's last decade to 1920 did evidence emerge to support what suffragists long had suspected and said:  The anti-suffragist women's groups (with a national organization, branches, newsletters, etc.) were funded by men, many of them party leaders (in both major parties), and especially by businessmen most threatened by woman suffrage.  Then, those were the American Brewers Congress and other "liquor interests" since the early 1870s.

    The special interests behind this now seem to be led by GE, owner of MSNBC.  Others?  We may see the evidence, decades from now.  Or not.  But parallels in history, in every wave of the women's movement, tell me what I know must be so, again.

    Parent

    Civil Rigfhts? (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Molly Pitcher on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:36:08 AM EST
    In another thread, a couple of people argued that this primary included no civil rights issues.  Right!  Just civil rights for more than half our population (including AA women, of course).  The posters mentioned suffrage--that was determined by the Supreme Court not long before my sister was born.  What we want now is as much civil rights as what was wanted by blacks who did NOT live in Jim Crow States.  Women do not have equal rights yet--equal pay for one example.  And a biggie (but not a legal issue) the right to respect--the right not to be called foul terms in public or belittled.

    My first post here (deleted!) was to the effect that the b word is the equivalent of the n word (per Wright's rant).


    "Fritz and Tits" (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Dadler on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:40:13 PM EST
    Who remembers this slogan from the Mondale/Reagan '84 season?  Or Nixon talking about his opponent being pink down to her panties in the 50's.  It's our unfortunate heritage, and it will only be defeated when the gloves really come off.  Because they can come off, and women have the power in numbers to change it.  Racism, conversely, is a much more unwieldy beast, since it's strangely ACCEPTABLE to cop to a certain amount of sexism, even a great amount, while copping to any racial prejudice is, well, almost impossible, since 99% of us swear we don't have any.  

    I don't bother to hate him (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Cream City on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:46:48 PM EST
    I do dislike him intensely for allowing and even encouraging the sexist campaign.  And it will hurt his daughters.  It is hurting and will hurt all of our daughters -- and our sons, seeing this sexism sanctioned again by media and the majority of society.  

    And I am especially weary of attempts such as yours to distract us from the discussion, of whininess from Obama and his supporters when we discuss this concern.  It only reaffirms my dislike, and that doesn't help your candidate, now, does it?  

    On off topic comments (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:18:20 AM EST
    Please see the Open thread below.

    I will no longer explain this point to those who want to inject off topic comments into my threads. I just delete from now on.


    My post wasn't O/T (none / 0) (#29)
    by rottenart on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:28:34 AM EST
    I thought it asked a valid question. I know you're willing to support the Nominee, BTD, but I was only curious about what the solution to the problem is...

    Also, if it's not obvious that some of the Obama-hate here is JUST as bad as the Hillary-hate elsewhere then we do have a long way to go.

    Parent

    you are wrong (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:34:23 AM EST
    no one here "hates" Obama.  on the other hand the headline at Americablog yesterday proudly stated "Everyone Hates Her".  with rare exceptions commenters here express doubt in his character, his qualifications, his honesty and his ability to win a general election but we do not hate him.


    Parent
    You don't "hate" Obama and neither (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:02:47 AM EST
    do I.  But I've certainly seen comments here that either imply hatred.

    Parent
    with "rare exceptions" (none / 0) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:05:19 AM EST
    which are usually deleted.

    Parent
    I don't hate Obama (none / 0) (#81)
    by BarnBabe on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:41:43 AM EST
    I just do not have as much respect for him as I once did. I see him for what he is now. Hatred is a big word, and I have used it enough on objects, but usually not on people. Even Rove. OK, I have come close to it on GW. I might even be there now. I actually think Obama has potential. He just is not ready for Prime Time yet. Neither was Bush.

    Parent
    You are absolutely correct Sam... (none / 0) (#113)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:13:29 AM EST
    ...especially when you view the media in a larger context. The current media darling status of Obama is a total con job. I feel that both candidates have used the weapons at their disposal but only one has been called on it at this point in time. But that can change on a dime and anybody who thinks that an Obama presidency would be the end of racism is bound to be sorely disappointed.

    Aw, I didn't say what you think you heard (none / 0) (#123)
    by BarnBabe on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:28:56 AM EST
    This notion that the media is just pro black is absurd and insulting.
    I don't think they are pro black at all. I don't believe they are and I am not insulting anyone except the media. I am saying that they do not and can not say any racism words against Obama and get away with saying sexism words against Hillary. In fact, 'I' would never use the N word not even to make a point. It is just not acceptable in my vocabulary. I do not even like AA comedians using the word on BHO comedy jam. For the same reason I did not like Imus's insult, I believe that the media should not be allowed to call Hillary insulting words. We have egotistical Rush alikes who are trying to hear their own voice and too many people take them seriously. What happened to reporting facts and not opinions? Besides, I think of all of us as different shades of beige. I am a female beige.

    Oh I agree with that (none / 0) (#158)
    by CST on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:51:31 PM EST
    I was responding to the comment that said the U.S. was worse than other countries.  I think the U.S. is bad, however, having traveled, I can't call it worse.

    Right on cue (none / 0) (#168)
    by Dr Molly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:20:33 PM EST
    Not an excuse for sexism.

    Holy cow, I just read this by (none / 0) (#170)
    by zyx on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:23:51 PM EST
    Barbara Ehrenreich, via an excerpt in "The Week" magazine.

    "Hillary Clinton smashed the myth of innate female moral superiority in the worst possible way--by demonstrating female moral inferiority. We didn't really need her racial innuendos and free-floating bellicosity to establish that women aren't wimps. As a generation of young feminists realizes, the values once thought to be uniquely and genetically female--such as compassion and an aversion to violence--can be found in either sex, and sometimes it's a man who best upholds them."

    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080526/ehrenreich

    Not to mention... (none / 0) (#171)
    by rottenart on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:27:31 PM EST
    ... the fact that Senator Obama acknowledges the sexism in the campaign:

    Here's the ABC news story

    What has John Mccain said about it?

    My point is that your frustration and anger about the sexism are completely justified. I completely agree that the media is a boy's club and deserves to be called out for it. But to punish Obama and the American people by allowing Mccain to win CERTAINLY won't help the cause.

    This is distracting from discussion again (none / 0) (#172)
    by Cream City on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:32:33 PM EST
    as neither I nor anyone here has said that they are voting for Clinton only due to her gender, nor that we would vote for a Dole or others on that basis.  Nor have we said that would be effective in combatting sexism.

    That you say so suggests that you still don't get what sexism is and how it has been used against Clinton and thus all women in this campaign.  Also, we have discussed many examples of sexist behavior by Obama here, and I personally am done being distracted by those who ask us to keep doing that work for them.  Search the archives here or google.

    Also, please abide by site rules and do not use the full spelling of disgusting terms.  Use asterisks for some of the letters, for the reasons that Jeralyn has given again and again to protect this site and the many lawyers using it.

    Thank you! (none / 0) (#174)
    by rottenart on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:55:41 PM EST
    for taking the time to respond to me without vitriol!

    I don't know what the solution is. I do know that this is a game of inches. For every flaw or sexist statement from Obama, perceived or otherwise, I know John Mccain would be ten million times worse. We can't cut off our nose to spite our face here. Yes, our country has a deeply ingrained sexist streak. Yes, the English language is full of loaded language that gets bandied about without a second thought to its origin or its meaning. These are issues that we must continue to fight and continue to challenge.

    Plenty of people are willing to heap praise on Clinton for all that she's accomplished in the face of incredible odds. I certainly would never try to diminish her stature as a role model and a shining example. We should all continue to do this, for the good of the fight.

    However, if she doesn't win the nomination, it's no reason to call it quits, declare failure, and back Mccain out of spite. As I said before, it amazes me that people would actually argue that Mccain would be a better option, especially in the area of women's rights, than Obama.

    You're welcome! (none / 0) (#177)
    by Dr Molly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:05:24 PM EST
    Same to you.

    With respect, I disagree. You could not find an alternative as I asked. And that's because there isn't one - not your fault.

    This has nothing to do with who is less sexist - Obama or McCain. It has to do with finding a way to have a voice against the incredible misogyny that has been not just allowed, but encouraged, by democrats during this primary.

    Parent

    that's all you came up with? (none / 0) (#180)
    by Lisa on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:23:17 PM EST
    then you didn't look hard enough

    I'm not going to do your work for you... nor play the game (and it's the same exact game, this is just plan b if plan a fails - I'm sure the playbook has strategies up to z at this point on this issue, because next to his lack of experience, it's big and going to bite