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Recount Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sun May 25, 2008 at 07:51:57 PM EST
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Here's a thread to discuss the important HBO film Recount, to be broadcast starting now. It's relevance to the current Democratic primary is obvious. Let's limit the discussion to Recount if we can.

I am signing off now. Have a nice night. J is at the movies.

< Open Thread - Watch Recount Tonight | Overnight Open Thread >

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    Recount Open Thread | 214 comments (214 topical)
    BTD (5.00 / 11) (#2)
    by A little night musing on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:09:14 PM EST
    It's been a tough day, to my surprise.

    I just want to say to you and Jeralyn... you've managed, while being forthright in your views, to make this a good place in which discussion could take place.

    If not for you (BTD), I'd long ago have given up on Obama.

    Don't think all commenters ignore the points you make. I take you very seriously.

    I missed all the fuss, (5.00 / 5) (#70)
    by kayla on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:09:38 PM EST
    But I just wanted to jump in and reiterate what many have already said.  I adore this site.  I would not be so informed and prepared to engage in political discussion if it weren't for BTD and Jeralyn and all the commentors here (even if some of the more extreme partisans annoy me sometimes).  I certainly don't agree with everything BTD has said here, but of course, that's a good thing - keeps my dislike for Obama from getting too irrational and keeps the place from getting boring and turning into an echo chamber.  He is among the few during this election cycle that I feel is not insulting my intelligence or disrespecting me with lies and misrepresentations.  I'm young, and this is the first election I've watched closely, and I don't think I'd be becoming a happy political junky if it weren't for TalkLeft.  

    Parent
    Recount (none / 0) (#94)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:27:15 PM EST
    will air again on HBO (East) at 1 AM EDT.

    I missed the first 25 minutes and then was only able to catch glimpses until the last 15 minutes.

    Looking forward to reading comments about Recount on this thread.

    Parent

    I do not know if I can go through it again! (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by kenosharick on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:15:32 PM EST
    I'll watch- but truth be told, I am still pissed that the election was STOLEN in 2000. I said I would never get over it until there is a DEM in the WH, and it appears my party is about to throw away any chance of that happening in 2008.

    It is about to be stolen again in Florida (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Mrwirez on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:15:17 PM EST
    by the republican legislature.

    Parent
    Only if Dean and Brazile allow/encourage it (5.00 / 1) (#256)
    by andrys on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:14:30 AM EST
    They made those arbitrary rules and they can modify them.

    Parent
    It always comes down to Florida (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by flashman on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:16:58 PM EST
    Watching now...

    Donna was not that old (none / 0) (#6)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:18:43 PM EST
    then...

    Parent
    She wasn't that thin, either (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:11:30 PM EST
    (okay, I know karma will put five pounds on my hips for saying that)

    Did you see Russert?  Holy!  Seven years has not been good to him.

    and, wtf happened here today?  I went out for supper and a movie and came back to turmoil!

    Parent

    Kathy, It was an exciting day. Heated (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by zfran on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:38:05 PM EST
    with enough passion and emotion to carry through, through a primary. Thought Recount was compelling and a great telling of a sad, but true part of our history. I kept yelling, Florida, Florida, Florida...let them count the votes.

    Parent
    I just read some of it (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:45:03 PM EST
    Yikes!  Tempers flared.  Maybe it is the weather or we're getting a full moon?  Or maybe we were predisposed to anger because we knew what Recount would bring?   I read the script a while back but I have to say, watching it play out on the screen just got my blood pressure way up to danger levels.  Lieberman!  AUGH.  I had forgotten.  And I really wish they had played out more on the media, but then again, look who owns HBO.

    (Of course, Oculus tattled on me once, but we're still pals)

    Parent

    I know what you mean. I go to LA (none / 0) (#252)
    by oculus on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:28:54 AM EST
    to hear a wonderful LA Philharmonic concert.  Come back and all h*ell has broken loose.  Doubt everyone watching Recount will really improve the mood here all that much.  

    Did talk to two friends, tertiary-educated, latte sipping liberals, who are firmly in Obama's camp.  One, male, retired professor, sd. it is because Obama offers something new. Sd. Clinton was really damaging her campaign lately.  The other, female, sd. she realized recently Obama will be the nominee so she is now supporting him despite her dislike of how Clinton has been depicted and treated during the campaign.  

    Parent

    If Gray Hair Were Gold... (none / 0) (#69)
    by flashman on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:08:49 PM EST


    Parent
    I'm watching (5.00 / 7) (#7)
    by stillife on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:19:29 PM EST
    Brings up a lot of bad memories, but I like to stay bitter.  

    I was so heartbroken in 2000.  I attended a count-the-votes rally in midtown Manhattan on the same day that the court stopped the votes.

    Think how different life would be if Gore had put up a fight.  That's one reason why I support my fighting candidate - Hillary!

    Hear Hear! (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by Alegre on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:29:30 PM EST
    I hear Bill says of his wife - "there's no quit in that girl" - but has he got that right!

    Parent
    Gore did put up a heckuva fight (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Cream City on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:19:55 PM EST
    beyond endurance if it were me -- and he retained his dignity and thus that of the country, amid outright hooliganism by the other side.  While others trashed the democratic process, he respected it.

    That is one reason why I respect him to this day -- as I have no respect for whiny sore losers.  But being dignified in loss made him a winner two times over.

    Parent

    Gore didn't put up enough fight (5.00 / 2) (#260)
    by bridget on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:40:53 AM EST
    listening again to the Supreme Courts reasoning made that very clear ... it really is unbelievable how they got away w. it.

    This movie put a whole diff. perspective on the whole Recount. Basically it wasn't Gore and Bush who did the fighting. Does anybody know the names of the Gore fighters? Christopher was a total loser, my goodness. Ran off.

    btw. last year Gore's laywer (the Ed Begley character, sorry, his name escapes me right now it's getting late but he is brilliant) published a book and I did watch him on Imus. He did acknowledge that they gave up too soon and said that Gore would agree.

    As usual Gore listened to the press and worried too much about "how he looked." I bet Bush never even gave that a second thought and Baker et al would have laughted off such a thing.  

    This was a first rate history lesson.
    Republicans want to win and this movie showed why the win. They had their people in place because they worked patiently for it the last three decades.
    And it showed  the tendency of the Democrats to give up.

    Except for Bill Clinton. He was absolutely brilliant during the impeachment trial, well, actually the whole eight years. I doubt any other President incl. the Bushes could have endured mentally and physically what he went thru without giving up. That never was an option for Bill Clinton. Too bad the US has term limits.

    So I hope v. much Hillary gets a chance to show what she is made of - and if she does believe she has a chance to get the nom she should fight until the v. last second. I do hope it goes to the convention. The Dem party needs something like that ... they have been sleeping for too long.

    Oh, btw. actress Laura Dern was fabulous - as I knew she would be. LOL she should get the Emmy she really should.

    Parent

    Bad memories (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by nell on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:21:07 PM EST
    It brings up bad memories, but it also makes me nostalgic for a time when we could all be proud to be Democrats and to know that if nothing else, we had principle on our side...it is heartbreaking that we have lost that.

    It's too hard to watch (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by riddlerandy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:24:35 PM EST
    maybe I will watch the rest on dvd  after the Dems take  back the WH

    I have it on, but (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by nene on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:26:47 PM EST
    I can only bear to watch it out of the corner of my eye.

    I still remember the night the SC declared for Bush.  I was lying in my bed, shaking with rage, unable to sleep, knowing democracy was destroyed.

    And so it has been.

    Ok..the Republicans (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:30:11 PM EST
    start by working for the Federal courts, the path to Supreme Court, while the Dems are talking recounts.

    Ok...the Bush bully tactics (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:59:01 PM EST
    remind me of something.  

    Don't have cable, so can't watch - (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by Anne on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:10:23 PM EST
    which in some ways, is not so bad.

    I suffered a traumatic shoulder dislocation and fracture the week before the 2000 election, and then had shoulder surgery the week after Thanksgiving, so that whole time has a bit of a Vicodin haze around it. Given how painful the election and its aftermath was, maybe I should be grateful that I had something to take the edge off it.

    Hard to believe it's been 8 years and it still seems too soon to re-live it.

    My shoulder's fine, though.

    The mob (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:13:10 PM EST
    watching Recount, the Mob in action.  Need one say more.  

    They do parallel that mob... (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by citizen53 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:23:24 PM EST
    in Florida, don't they?

    Parent
    Brooks Brother's riot. . . (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:24:11 PM EST


    Parent
    florida (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by tedsim on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:24:15 PM EST
    Those weren't floridians they were brought in by the republicans.Know your facts.

    Parent
    Don't get HBO, so I waste my time... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by citizen53 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:13:42 PM EST
    over there.

    But this is just so ironic from people who are all about hope.

    Citizen 53....spring for the cable. I think the (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:27:37 PM EST
    toxicity at HuffPo and DKos are seriously bad for everyone's health.

    Parent
    I have the cable... (none / 0) (#42)
    by citizen53 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:34:48 PM EST
    but a crappy system here.  We don't get HBO, etc. as part of the package for some reason.

    They even dropped CPAN2.

    Anyway, I don't mind speaking up there from time to time.  I admit I am there a helluva lot less often these days, but I need to be aware of the future that stares us in the face.

     

    Parent

    Get Satellite...it's better...as for Huffpo...I (none / 0) (#49)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:52:12 PM EST
    used to be on it all the time, interjecting comments to try to offset the Hillary hate, and then I found TL, so I haven't been back more than a couple of times.  It is like a huge exercise in futility for me...but if you feel like you are making a difference, that's cool...

    Parent
    Heh, the night of the PA Debate, HuffPo (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:01:50 PM EST
    and DKos both went through their membership lists and banned every Hillary supporter they had registered. I've noticed they are allowing them again, and have actually started posting much more balance in their articles. Maybe Arianna is still Republican at heart.


    Parent
    Why go over there (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Mrwirez on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:19:27 PM EST
    They can't pick a winner. watch in horror in November. The swift boating has yet to begin....

    Parent
    KOS (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:37:15 PM EST
    is also a "former" Republican and I believe Aravosis and I've heard Marshall but I'm not sure.

    Marshall was pals with some DLCers and supported the invasion of Iraq as did Matthew Eglesias and, as I recall, Kevin Drumm.

    Parent

    That makes so much sense now. (5.00 / 0) (#263)
    by andrelee on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:29:01 AM EST
    They were all on my bookmarks, but no mas. Even Atrios is gone and he's no ex-Republican, far as I  know but, then again, I didn't know about the ex-Republicanishness of the leading Dem blog sites either. I don't understand it. It's like they abandoned critical thinking, our main weapon to keep politicians and the powerful in check, in order to  keep supporting the same storys about Clinton but not to clarify the storys being presented in the MSM. Even going to Drudge for ammo. Keeping the press in check, Joe Klein, John Solomon, etc..and their lax coverage of the Bush Admin is the stuff they were doing that got me going to their sites in the first place. Sh@#, even Digby just recently wrote in support of the rise of the New Dem Party coalition-AA, ultra libs, college kids, and latinos thrown in there, minus everyone else-think every losing Dem Presidential support base. Expanding the base-understandably a positive. Removing consistent supporters and hoping they can be replaced? That has never, ever worked. Although, it was presented as just giving up on efforts to get Reagan Dems, she then turned around and emphasized getting working class women, but not working class men. I hope someone can reveal what is going on now later on down the road. We only found out about the reasons for the press disdain for Gore and cheers for Bush in the 2000 election only recently. There needs to be one about the bloggers role this time. Dem blogs.

    Parent
    Well, I am proud to say I got banned 8 times (4.50 / 2) (#209)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:25:48 PM EST
    from HuffPo...as a pro-Hillary person, you don't have a chance; but if you spew the most vile things against Hillary, you somtimes get picked as the HuffPost Pick....it is a frightening place.

    Parent
    Arianna is a Naderite asshat (5.00 / 1) (#262)
    by TeresaInPa on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:28:29 AM EST
    she is also a silly elitist who jumps on whatever bandwagon the kool kidz are on that season.  No wonder her site is so infected with Obama worshipers.

    Parent
    I almost got sucked down the HuffPost (5.00 / 4) (#132)
    by Valhalla on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:51:33 PM EST
    rabbithole to hell for a while, thinking it was worth trying to make level headed comments.  But I just couldn't bear the hate (and the poor reasoning, quite apart from the hate).  

    I bailed before the purge, though, and am almost sorry I missed, it would be a badge of honor.  Now the only time I go is when someone here recommends a particular article and I avoid all the comments.

    For which I thank everyone -- I just can't bear to read HuffPo or a bunch of other sites myself (raises my blood presssure), so I really appreciate the folks here who wade through all the crap and report back what is (or is not) worth taking a look at.  Same goes for the folks who keep an eye on KO and the Misogyny Gang.

    Parent

    should be Huff-Ho (5.00 / 0) (#228)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:56:51 PM EST
    instead of HuffPo.  She's such a tool for Obama.

    Parent
    Thanks for the suggestion... (none / 0) (#112)
    by citizen53 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:40:39 PM EST
    but it's not worth the money any of these systems get.

    I am watching MASH, the movie, instead.  :)

    Parent

    Speaking Of Hope (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by talex on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:04:43 PM EST
    Here is the latest in Hope:

    Pres '08
    May 25 Gallup
    McCain (R) 47%, Obama (D) 45%

    Pres '08
    May 25 Gallup
    Clinton (D) 49%, McCain (R) 44%

    I HOPE the Supers are paying attention!!!

    Parent

    As I said before, (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Radiowalla on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:25:47 PM EST
    I'd rather rip out my eyeballs than watch.
    Living through it in real time was more than enough, thank you.

    now watching (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by DandyTIger on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:26:01 PM EST
    after watching Tutors and the mars polar lander. Ewwwww is all I can say. Wow, that brings back some horrible memories. I agree with some posters above, kind of reminds me of something happening now...

    Wonder if the timing of this show and reminding people of not counting votes and the popular vote in general will wake anyone up out there. Not holding my breath of course.

    HBO (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:42:09 PM EST
    aired Iron Jawed Angels several times leading up to the 20th.

    The story of Alice Paul and Lucy Burns in the struggle for Women's Suffrage.

    Parent

    recount (none / 0) (#217)
    by tedsim on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:33:57 PM EST
    I bet the networks won't even mention it.

    Parent
    I would call the diarist and idiopath, but (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:31:10 PM EST
    she'd probably misunderstand me. Then again, that's what I intend.

    They are having an intellectual discussion... (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by citizen53 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:40:09 PM EST
    and cannot even realize the ridiculousness of it all.

    Parent
    Eek! (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Fabian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:51:08 PM EST
    I scanned the diary in question and there's a detailed "psychoanalysis" based on Clinton's 2-3 sentences.

    There is some use for profiling and analyzing people's behavior - looking for a consistent pattern of behaviors in order to predict future behavior can be useful.

    But cherry picking one blurb and then "analyzing" it to death is looking at through the wrong end of the microscope.  The author certainly seemed to enjoy herself though.  I think that was the point.

    Parent

    Videotape psychoanalysis (5.00 / 0) (#144)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:57:19 PM EST
    has always been an irritating weakness of Daily Kos.

    I used to remind people there that it wasn't right when Bill Frist did it, and it isn't right for you to do it either.

    Parent

    My reaction was usually (none / 0) (#163)
    by Fabian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:05:43 PM EST
    "What's the point?"

    Outside of the possibility declaring an elected official incompetent, there's little use for online "diagnoses".

    There is a tragic flaw in out precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it.  This is it:  Only nut cases want to be president.  Kurt Vonnegut

    (Courtesy of PS 238 - Extraterrestrial Credit)

    Parent

    Dr. Phil (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:58:42 PM EST
    they all watched that and now they have credentials.  

    Parent
    Wow... (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:33:21 PM EST
    This is like PTSD...and the feelings with this primary it's the same feelings.  

    Bush talking points and Obama's (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by angie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:33:31 PM EST
    are amazingly the same -- too bad the irony is lost on the "creative class."

    I don't have HBO (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Regency on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:35:26 PM EST
    So I'm whipping out my Season one & two West Wing dvds. Sweet Jesus, Barack Obama is John Hoynes and Hillary is Jed Bartlet.

    Please, let's elect Jed Bartlet, because John Hoynes never had it in him.

    the calls for Gore to drop-out (5.00 / 8) (#44)
    by ccpup on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:38:04 PM EST
    for unity and some such are disgustingly reminiscent of Obama's calls for Hillary to drop-out.  And the mobs?  Known as Obama crowds these days.

    It's tough to watch ... even if it is out of the corner of my eye.

    How Wel I Remember (5.00 / 6) (#123)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:47:15 PM EST
    The pundits absolutely insisted that Gore was putting the nation in crisis and the other guy (Bush) didn't want votes to be counted.

    Not really eerie, just proof that filth is a constant.

    Parent

    That part had slipped my memory (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:58:32 PM EST
    Maybe that's Gore's dilemma in endorsing. Surely, he can't be thinking Obama is worthy of his endorsement. This primary has to be a nightmare of bad memories for him. I hope he admires Hillary's strength.

    Parent
    I don't believe that (none / 0) (#265)
    by TeresaInPa on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:50:51 AM EST
    it is DC gossip and gossip treats everyone as if they were in Middle School.  Gore and Clinton are both bigger than that.

    Parent
    Hillary's theme song closes it! (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by angie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:55:53 PM EST
    Tom Petty's "I won't back down." I'm taking that as a good omen.

    Loved that too (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:16:55 PM EST
    Nice touch, Petty being from FL, and also the Hillary connection. Always been a favorite song of mine - I didn't let Kerry ruin it for me.  I'm glad Hillary is using it.

    Parent
    Danny Strong wrote this! (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by geordie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:55:56 PM EST
    As a Florida resident then and now, I can't bring myself to watch this tonight - maybe one of the repeats.  However, as a Buffy fan, I am thrilled that Danny Strong - Jonathan on Buffy for 6 seasons live and one dead (Buffy fans will know how that goes) - wrote Recount.  I'm always thrilled to see actors I love in one context succeed in another.

    My friend who is watching, and is a native Floridian and politically connected Democrat, thinks it's very good, albeit very painful.  And that while Warren Christopher has complained about being portrayed as weak, that's surely how both of us remember it going down at the time.

    Oh, and OT, but the first pictures have come back from the Phoenix which successfully landed on Mars earlier tonight!  Yeah for geeks!

    well the republicans got their way back then (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by athyrio on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:56:38 PM EST
    and look at the legacy it left us after 8 years, because Gore thought he was doing the right thing to put our country first...IMO, he was wrong and should have fought onward....I sure hope Hillary keeps fighting because the parallels are scary to me....Obama is reminding me more and more of Bush...

    telling (5.00 / 5) (#68)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:08:27 PM EST
    Gore thought the best thing he could do for the country was not be president.  Clinton thinks the exact opposite about herself.

    Parent
    well, according to the movie... (5.00 / 0) (#78)
    by Lora on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:16:14 PM EST
    Gore didn't think he could be president, whether he won or not.  They didn't allow it.

    Parent
    I think that was probably accurate (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:40:33 PM EST
    He was not going to be allowed to take office no matter what legal challenges they came up with.  If the Supreme Court was willing to bend the law so far in the recount case, they would have done the same with other cases.

    Parent
    Other Dems did in chances for a fight (5.00 / 6) (#118)
    by Cream City on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:44:02 PM EST
    back in Florida and then back up to SCOTUS again.  I remember it well.  His own VP candidate, Lieberman, screwed up his script (some say on purpose, as the movie does, to promote himself).  Prima Donna Brazile told Gore to give up.  I don't recall the names of others, but I well recall that there were not enough Dems out there fighting the media meme that Gore was -- wait for it -- damaging the Dems (sound familiar?) and the country, blah blah.

    Do not blame Gore.  He was left standing almost alone, increasingly, as the battle went on for six weeks.  The Dem leadership screwed up, scrambling to cover their own butts -- except the Clintons, but as in the campaign, he decided he couldn't use them (the major mistake of his campaign, and put the blame for that, from what I've read, on Brazile, too; I've also read that she was behind telling him to concede on election night, based on tv reports rather than on solid data).

    Parent

    No, not kidding. (5.00 / 0) (#89)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:25:26 PM EST
    But you're welcome to your opinion.

    Parent
    The number is 2210 (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:26:48 PM EST


    Parent
    You reallly have your chronology (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by Cream City on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:52:57 PM EST
    and causation screwed up re Michigan, as well as your facts re Florida -- where he was on the ballot.

    Go find some blog full of low information voters who won't be on to you so easily.

    Parent

    I am sure that FL voters really appreciate (5.00 / 4) (#136)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:53:49 PM EST
    the opinion of a WA Obama supporter in this matter.
    FL had a record turnout. By the way, if Obama thought FL wouldn't count, why did he blanket the state with TV ads?

    Parent
    Why did he leave his name on the Florida ballot (5.00 / 2) (#221)
    by ChuckieTomato on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:39:43 PM EST
    If neither counted and he took his name off in Michigan, why not Florida

    Parent
    In Florida, they couldn't remove their names (none / 0) (#259)
    by andrys on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:16:01 AM EST
    unless they signed a paper stating they were not running for the presidency of the U.S.

      But all it shows is that there never was a DNC move that people had to remove their names.  Even in Michigan, the DNC placed names on, including Obama's, while knowing there would be problems coming up with the dates and penalties.

    Parent

    You mean Kim Jong-il? (5.00 / 0) (#124)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:48:16 PM EST
    gracious leader


    Parent
    Only Harvard Law Review president (5.00 / 7) (#131)
    by Cream City on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:51:11 PM EST
    not to have authored an article in it, so say lawyers I read -- and btw, Obama was not the first AA to head the Harvard Law Review.  That was 60 years before, the first AA editor.  Obama came in soon after a title change to HLR "president."

    Community organizer?  Search Stellaa's comments here on that.  Great orator?  I thought so in 2004, but the same speech over and over now leaves me cold -- as does the great orator's hip-hop routine calling his opponent "dirt."  Beautiful human being, gracious leader?  Ask Alice Palmer.  Law prof?  Well, U of Chicago has contradicted itself on that, to the point that it's a joke in academe now.  Draws crowds?  Not as big as Kerry's 80,000, and he lost.  

    Opposed Iraq war?  So did I, and neither of us cast votes on it then.  But he had the chance to vote against it many times since, but has not done so . . . in part with one of the worst voting attendance records in the Senate.  And I find Hillary Clinton's speech about her vote and exactly what it meant and what it didn't to be far more moving.  Have you read it?  Even bothered?

    Just a taste of what's ahead for you and for him.  And we haven't even gotten to those beautiful human beings he seems to hardly know now -- Wright, Rezko, Ayers, etc.  It will be awful.

    Parent

    Re Hillary's Iraq vote speech (5.00 / 1) (#257)
    by andrys on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:02:48 AM EST
    Here's an intro and then a link to the full speech by Hillary, and you are right in what you say; it's just not at all as Barack would have his audiences believe was her stance or goal etc.  It does irritate me that so many mischaracterize her vote as "wanting war" or "for the war" ...  He simplifies it by telling his audiences just pay attention to the title, but as he should know but apparently doesn't, Content is everything.

      It's too bad that Bush ignored that he did NOT have authority to do what he did when the Iraq government did live up to their part of the conditions as described in that resolution and that the Congress did not take him to task for that.

    Parent

    I can't believe SOME of the SDs aren't (5.00 / 1) (#258)
    by andrys on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:12:23 AM EST
    aware of what lies ahead as far as unlimited material for 527 videos illustrating the rise of Obama in Illinois and what it involved, mainly because it goes against the new, pure image.    

     Dems wouldn't use it, wouldn't even care much, but it will be really bad with moderate to conservative voters.

     I see Jimmy Carter said today he will be announcing after the last primary and that the rest of the SDs will and that she will be quitting at that time.  Amazing to me how they treat her run for months now as both Invalid, like some fly on their coat, and Harmful to Barack, knowing the actual rules for SDs.

     But they've made their November bed with all this and for the next 8 years, sad to say.  

    Parent

    This line of argument doesn't fly with me. (5.00 / 1) (#234)
    by blcc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:25:42 AM EST
    McCain (and Hillary, for that matter) at least has a history of serving this country.

    Obama has a history of serving himself at the expense of voters.  

    Parent

    FYI - "Recount" can be seen (none / 0) (#65)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:02:37 PM EST
    starting tomorrow at any time through HBO on demand -- if you have HBO.  

    Parent
    Show was quite good- (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by kenosharick on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:05:10 PM EST
    acting and writing terrific. I predict sveral emmy nods (which HBO always gets anyway). It just really brought home the crap that is going on now- lets pray (even as an agnosic) that the SDs come to their senses before it is too late. BTW-any word on the Michelle Obama "secret tape?"

    We have now had both political parties (5.00 / 4) (#67)
    by FLVoter on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:07:18 PM EST
    disenfranchise Florida voters for the "glory" of winning.  Since when is democracy about only the result and not the process?  Count every vote. Sen. Obama wants to be the nominee, but he can only be the nominee if he represents the core values of the Democratic Party. This movie is a startling reminder that counting every vote is a Democratic Party value.  How can he be the Democratic nominee if he does not respect that value.  If he does not respect my vote and my right to cast that vote? How can he become the Democratic nominee if he continues to throw the Democratic voters of Florida away as if we are nothing?  Florida had 1.7M people that voted.  A record turn out.  How can this happen in the United States of America and why is not every Democrat outraged by this?  Don't you realize that if this has happened twice to Florida with the entire country watching, that it could happen to you too.

    Exactly (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by nell on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:16:52 PM EST
    You should do what is right because it is right. Period.

    It doesn't matter what anyone said way back when. People like Harold Ickes and Donna Brazile who voted for 100 percent stripping of FL and MI delegates were wrong, it does not matter what side they were on. The results from FL and MI had the potential to change the entire momentum of this race, and Hillary has been denied that. The vote totals from both of these states now have the potential to determine who the popular vote winner is. The principle of voter intent is more important than the rules - if the intent to vote is there, the vote must be counted. The DNC cannot back away from that principle and still remain the party that stands for counting every vote.

    When the Republicans wrongly purge 20,000 people from the voter rolls again, and Democrats complain, you know what they are going to say? You people purged 2 whole states, stop looking at us! We will have NO ground to stand on. None.

    This is wrong. The DNC must stop this if they want any hope of having a legitimate nominee.

    Parent

    Also (5.00 / 0) (#235)
    by Eleanor A on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:26:34 AM EST
    the GOP legislatures of 13 states - including OH, MO, AZ - will simply move their primaries in 2012 to screw with the Dems' nominating process.

    This is the slipperiest of slopes.  It appalls me that nobody in the national leadership is even discussing the matter.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by countme on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:26:05 PM EST
    with you FLvoter. Somethings are more important then winning. Like our constitution. At what point in our history did our values change? When did we as a country decide to be silent while our constitutional rights get trampled. I do not like the way the republicans and now the dens change the rules just to fix the game before it is played.

    I am so disenfranchised I have decided to move to Amsterdam.
    where they have a better understanding of democracy then Americans.

    Well said FLvoter

    Parent

    All Obama has will be (5.00 / 0) (#154)
    by ding7777 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:00:57 PM EST
    endorsements. Obama has to wait until the convention to get any of the those endorsements translated to votes.  

    Parent
    even if he gets the delegates (5.00 / 1) (#244)
    by nycstray on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:49:05 AM EST
    and they vote for him, doesn't mean he has the voters . . . . Too bad his fans don't seem to understand that, eh?

    Parent
    I can't believe this movie debuted at the (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Joan in VA on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:30:19 PM EST
    moment when history is repeating itself. It was quite moving to see the seniors with their signs "Count Our Votes" when the very Dems who needed their votes then are not counting them now. I'm starting to think we are cursed or have some really bad kharma. It is surreal.

    Parent
    You just do not wish to understand that the (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by FLVoter on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:32:36 PM EST
    stance you are taking is WRONG.  Didn't you watch the movie?  Do you remember how you felt in 2000 when all the votes were not counted?  What makes you think that Florida Democrats are OK with being disenfranchised from the party that professes to count every vote?  The hypocrasy is overwhelming.  Further, if Sen. Obama becomes the nominee, he will not win in Florida and lose a good chunk of electoral votes he will need to win in the GE. How many western states will he need to make up for the electoral votes that he has thrown away or should I say gift wrapped to Sen. McCain and the Republicans.  Lastly,  this ridiculous "roolz" stance also hurts downticket dems in my state by potentially depressing the vote.  So much damage caused by following the "roolz".

    Parent
    You are so uninformed about Florida. Guess (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by FLVoter on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:57:06 PM EST
    what I live in Broward County and I saw Sen. Obama's commercials before the primary.  I saw the debates along with millions of other voters.  We knew who Sen. Obama was.  Your problem is that you continually draw the candidates into this, but it is not about the candidates.  It is about the voters of Florida.  Further, find out why the primary date was moved before you blame Florida Democrats.  Become informed before you pass judgment on Florida. At this point Florida is not the problem.  The problem is the DNC and Sen. Obama for not counting my vote. Again your candidate will lose
    Florida and its electoral votes by taking this stance.  It hurts all democrats to be known as the party of hypocrasy.

    Parent
    Become informed. Your posts are now (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by FLVoter on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:05:46 PM EST
    ridiculous.  I think as a member of the Cuban American community in South Florida I am more aware what the Cuban American stance is concerning Sen. Obama.  With this comment I can now happily ignore you since you are woefully out of touch.

    Parent
    WA Voter is gone (none / 0) (#240)
    by Jeralyn on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:35:02 AM EST
    no need to respond to that commenter, s/he has been erased.

    Parent
    Wish I could uprate 10 times n/t (5.00 / 0) (#236)
    by Eleanor A on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:28:06 AM EST


    Parent
    Obama did campaign there (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by Valhalla on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:00:46 PM EST
    when he ran ads there just before the primary.

    Other folks on this site have debunked this argument elsewhere, I won't repeat all that.

    What I will repeat is what I said the other day -- what we are talking about is democracy.  The rules about delegates and superdelegate are just how the DNC and the govt have chosen to reflect democracy, they are not the principle itself.

    Parent

    In Michigan (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:05:27 PM EST
    there was a surrogate campaign run on Obama's behalf by John Conyers.

    Obama took his name off the ballot.  He forfeited and ya don't get nuthin if ya forfeit.

    Parent

    WaVoter (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:01:14 PM EST
    your arguments are uninformed and childish. You're in way way way over your head.  

    This subject has been done to death and regulars here have destroyed far better arguments than you appear capable of making.

    You're embarrassing youself.

    Parent

    Obama campaigned in FL with TV ads (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:05:17 PM EST
    Yes, I know he supposedly got permission from the DNC to run these ads, but that means nothing to me, as a voter. He broke the pledge---apparently abetted by the DNC.


    Parent
    Huh (5.00 / 0) (#138)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:54:29 PM EST
    "their states would have been just as important as Guam...

    What on earth are you smoking?

    WaVoter you are completely clueless. Typical Obama supporter.

    Parent

    Recount was excellent (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by Lora on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:14:51 PM EST
    Apparently there were even more shenanigans that did not make it into the movie.  Apparently the paper that was used for the ballots for a single Florida county was less than the usual high standard -- and remarkably prone to hanging chad, or chads, as the case may be).  Brad Blog discussed this issue recently.

    Err...I'm confused.  Open thread or not?  Not too far off the Recount topic, I hope.

    Toobin's book about the recount (none / 0) (#219)
    by riddlerandy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:37:00 PM EST
    and his more recent book "The Nine" recount it in gory detail (every pun intended).

    Parent
    I thoroughly enjoyed it (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:33:33 PM EST
    Yes, it was painful, and I probably wouldn't have been able to watch it until now when the end of the Bush term is in sight. But the writing and the performances were excellent.  Laura Dern was great - so was Tom Wilkinson playing Baker.

    Only one wrong note - Bob Balaban can never be nasty enough to play Ben Ginsburg. The role wasn't written very nasty though - Ginsburg must have been nice to the writer.

    The Dade County 'Brooks Brothers Riot' was infuriating all over again.  So staged and maniplulative.

    Anyway, if you missed it and get a chance to see it another time, it is worth a watch.

    And of course, to the larger point, it underscores the importance of showing that the Democratic party is committed to counting every vote.  Why it takes this movie to get that home is anybody's guess.  Is the DNC (I won't name the most obvious name)  frickin' nuts?

    I've actually met Ben Ginsburg (none / 0) (#104)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:36:25 PM EST
    and I remembered him being taller. . .

    Parent
    Yes, that too (none / 0) (#122)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:46:20 PM EST
    I do usually like Bob Balaban, but that one performance just did not seem right.

    I'm probably not being fair to Ginsburg, but he always seems like a charming/nasty evil type to me.  Maybe he is not as evil as I think.

    Parent

    I don't usually like Balaban (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Cream City on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:59:57 PM EST
    who doesn't get into a role but is always Balaban. Same again in Recount, a problem for the flick.

    Spacey is always stunning.  Dern was simply amazing as Harris -- and actually, from my memory of Harris trying to act all coy and seductive all of the time, Dern actually played her with restraint.  Shudder.

    Most of the rest of the casting was terrific, too -- the face of the guy who played Pastor Whiting, the AA turned away at the polls, was so moving at the end.  I was left wanting more about the deliberate purge of so many AAs in Florida, and it didn't even touch tonight on moving polling places, blocking roads to them, etc.  There is another movie in all of that, too.

    Most of the writing was pretty tight -- and tough to do, with so many more problems and illegalities hardly touched on tonight.  I would say that it made me so angry all over again -- but I wasn't over it, and I never will be.

    Parent

    I almost broke down in the first 10 minutes (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:03:18 PM EST
    when they showed the tape of the various networking calling FL for Gore, and then taking it back.

    I remember that actual moment, "knowing" that Gore had won the election.

    Parent

    The real footage (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:11:55 PM EST
    was hard to take, that's for sure.  I was hoping they wouldn't show Russert and his white board, but then they did.  

    Parent
    Everyone was thinner too (5.00 / 0) (#197)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:16:59 PM EST
    Ed Rendell, Russert, Gore.

    The stupid thing about the white board was that everyone who knew anything knew that it was all about Florida. Especially once PA and OH were called.

    Parent

    Why I won't vote for Obama part 32849783479 (5.00 / 5) (#107)
    by Ellie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:38:01 PM EST
    The astro-trolling providing patronizing psycho-caca is insulting and annoying. Whether the Trolling Points appears in the Obama blogs, are seeded throughout In The Tank media or turfed elsewhere, I'm above and beyond sexist and misogynistic kung-fu intended to fix Sweetie's Bruised Feelings.

    From a closed thread:

    It's absolutely normal to be feeling upset that one's candidate did not win. But given the state of the country today, and with Hillary and Bill working hard in the fall for the nominee, there's little chance that the Democratic party won't coalesce and finally get some sane folks into power so that we can bring this country back from the brink. GWB has messed things up royally and it would take a miracle for McCain to win in November

    Indeed. My greatest concern witnessing this utterly appalling behavior and unremitting insults towards me as a core Dem was that the abusers validate my disgust as normal.

    And then I'll get back in line. Oh please.

    I'm done. They want to keep playing me but I'm played out. If HRC's placed where she deserves to be and has earned, I'm on board.

    Otherwise, good luck to Obama, his machine, and the revamped Dems. They don't need me? They don't DESERVE me.

    They have a rather Skinnerian (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:41:38 PM EST
    view of human behavior. Perhaps there's a dash of Tony Roberts to it as well.

    Parent
    I find the idea of them campaigning for him (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Joan in VA on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:05:52 PM EST
    to be ludicrous. The Senate must still function and he has his own interests to attend to. Beyond that, there is too much water under the bridge. Dishonest Hillary and McCarthy Bill should campaign for him? Anyway, they would say they undermined him if he lost and who needs that? They've been mistreated enough. I do not want them involved at all.

    Parent
    Ellie, I agree with you but (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Valhalla on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:09:55 PM EST
    that post did give me the first good laugh in the last couple of hours.  Oh my.

    Please, please tell me this is not the Obama campaign's next gambit -- sending out stealth concern trollers to 'leak' California's SD endorsements?  (rolls eyes)

    Parent

    Not my doing or fault: Obama and the Dems own that (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by Ellie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:25:53 PM EST
    Let them clean their own mess.

    You don't get it: Political parties, their leadership and new mascot of the moment aren't empowered to dictate to individuals nor should they act as though they are.

    Parties and governmeent are supposed to LISTEN to the will of the people, as expressed through counting the votes of individuals.

    I'm not alone in this belief.

    Parent

    Me too to the 7th degree (5.00 / 5) (#214)
    by felizarte on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:30:31 PM EST
    considering the heightened negativity of the Obama groupies, I guess it could be an indication that they themselves believe that Obama has not won.  And perhaps they also sense that with the resentment they have caused with many Clinton supporters, they are looking at a loss in November that would rival that of McGovern.  I wonder if that is one of the reasons McGovern endorsed Obama--company.

    Parent
    Perhaps the wrong candidate is showing (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by zfran on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:42:42 PM EST
    unstable, no consequences behavior. Please help me understand the madness. Besides hatred for the Clintons, how else does someone explain what we are witnessing.

    Internal War (5.00 / 3) (#208)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:24:20 PM EST
    in the Democratic Party.  Washington insiders wanting to get rid of Clintons and major element  of the party's traditional constituency.

    Parent
    I think it's a hostile outside takeover. (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:26:25 PM EST
    The Republicans tried this with the Sierra club awhile back, and succeed with AARP, installing a Gingrich crony as head.


    Parent
    WaVoter (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:51:06 PM EST
    is about three posts away from being in violation of site rules. Just let her run her course.  She's just a stick trying to stir.

    WA Voter is gone (none / 0) (#241)
    by Jeralyn on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:37:59 AM EST


    Parent
    I saw this and thought (5.00 / 5) (#133)
    by befuddled on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:52:49 PM EST
    this is the sort of stuff we need now.

    "Rules are not necessarily sacred,
    principles are." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

    As a Cuban American, Sen. Obama has not (5.00 / 2) (#224)
    by FLVoter on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:42:59 PM EST
    made friends with the Cuban American community.  There was actually quite an uproar in the community that some Cuban Americans attended his event.  If you  want to take the pulse of the Cuban American people just listen to the talk radio station radio mambi.  You need to speak spanish since it is a spanish language station.  My father regularly listens, and the Cuban Americans are not happy with Sen. Obama. I do not see any possible way he can get our votes.  On the other hand, I have said many times that my family of Republicans adore Sen. Clinton. (When I say my family, I also include my extended family - cousins, aunts, uncles, etc..)

    If there are any Angel (or Buffy) fans (5.00 / 0) (#225)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:44:56 PM EST
    doesn't Obama and his base remind you of Jasmine in the 4th season of Angel?  Remember how it was (wini)Fred who was the first to see Jasmine for what she really was?

    Ironically Jasmine was black...like you know who!

    AND NO that's not racist, just pointing out a parallel.

    Sign open letter to HD and the DNC (5.00 / 2) (#232)
    by nell on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:13:30 AM EST
    Please go to http://countthevotescast.com/ and sign the open letter to the DNC and Howard Dean. They are planning to run it in the WaPo before the May 31st meeting and if they can get enough money they will be running a tv ad.

    count the votes (none / 0) (#242)
    by tedsim on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:38:25 AM EST
    Bad link?

    Parent
    Can't get URL to work n/t (none / 0) (#246)
    by Eleanor A on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:55:38 AM EST


    Parent
    probably (5.00 / 1) (#233)
    by txpolitico67 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:19:37 AM EST
    OR he/she checked their paypal account and Obama hasn't transferred the funds.

    RECOUNT (5.00 / 1) (#239)
    by S on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:34:06 AM EST
    I just finished watching recount and I live in Florida...in 2000, I lived in Los Angeles and I remember all of us wondering what the heck was going on in Florida...but we were proud...proud to be Democrats ready to fight for every vote to be counted...we had a mission...

    fast forward to 2008 and how far the Democratic party has fallen...just who in the DNC thought they were so omnipotent to strip two whole states of ALL their votes and delegates is an outrage and disgrace...it would have been bad enough to punish the two states by taking half their delegates...but the fact that the DNC believed they had the power to deny both states of ALL THEIR DELEGATES AND ALL their votes and all participation in this historic primary season is for me, beyond disappointment, disgust and anger...

    The current Democratic party has taken democracy out of being a democrat...sad to say, the republicans honor the sacred symbolic bond between the voters and their party and have enough respect to count Republican votes...

    ...the Democratic party has shown that is does not honor the time the voter takes to exercise their choice and priviledge when voting for a Democratic candidate...the DNC has clearly shown that their self concocted 'rules' are more important than the will of the voter and the voters rights...

    ...how far the Democratic party has fallen...

    RNC ad on Obama (5.00 / 2) (#251)
    by facta non verba on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:12:22 AM EST
    The Republicans are clearly focusing on painting Obama as out of toucg just as they painted Gore and Kerry.

    Obama RNC Ad.

    A sign of what's to come.

    Obama ads in Florida ran state wide because he bought media on the cable networks nationwide. Edwards and Clinton in part because they had fewer resources but also to honor the agreement on Florida bought their ads on a market by market basis. It's more dupliticity from Obama. He may have some of the people with this but he hasn't fooled me or others on this blog.

    Laura Dern is great (4.66 / 3) (#27)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:19:38 PM EST
    the body movements...!!

    Uncanny, isn't it? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:21:34 PM EST
    This whole thing makes me want to scream.

    Parent
    Cringe...the scary thing (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:24:27 PM EST
    is we did not revolt then, we did not revolt with the war, we did not revolt with all the other violations and crimes.  This is why I am afraid of a "movement" with a president who wants to have all the power, political and the legal power Bush has amassed.  

    Parent
    I've never been able to watch a (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:57:45 PM EST
    State of the Union speech, or any other speech by GWB. The absolute lack of integrity that put him in the WH both times made it so I can't stand the sound of his voice, or the sight of him.

    That's happened again, and I shudder at the idea of another 4 years of being unable to tolerate the next guy. I believe, given the chance to win, he will be another one term president and keep the democrats out of the WH for 16-20 years to follow.

    From what we've seen so far, this is another campaign group that wouldn't hesitate to pull what Jeb Bush and Kathryn Harris did in 2000.

    Parent

    she's creepy good, got it down pat (n/t) (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by DandyTIger on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:27:59 PM EST


    Parent
    Citizen Ruth (4.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:29:24 PM EST
    best Laura Dern movie ever.

    Parent
    Rome vs Recount (none / 0) (#113)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:41:36 PM EST
    I must say, the Romans had better theater than all the court stuff.  
    I miss Rome, the HBO series.  

    Parent
    Rome (5.00 / 0) (#137)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:54:18 PM EST
    I really miss that show.  The dynamic between the kids and the father, and all the sex and violence...sigh.  Sopranos is gone.  Dexter is on hiatus.  Tudors is getting too tame for me.  Where can we turn to for sex and violence now?

    Parent
    Big Love... (5.00 / 0) (#145)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:57:42 PM EST


    Parent
    Yes, good sex, no violence (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:02:41 PM EST
    I always get her name wrong--Chloe Svegney?--I adore her.  She is a pretty versatile actress to begin with, but she really nails that character amazingly well.  I think we all know a woman in our lives with that kind of personality.

    Barb, though--I love Barb.

    Parent

    No violence? (5.00 / 0) (#170)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:06:12 PM EST
    All that stuff with the "wierd son of the prophet"?  I love Chloe.  
    Google her, there are some bizarre sites with her strange fashion sense.  I love her outfits and her prissiness.  Barb is great.  That young girl from the compound was really, really creepy.  How about Chloe's mom?  

    Parent
    Ehn. Not Rome violence. (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:10:01 PM EST
    Certainly not Sopranos violence.  Now, there was some violence!

    I fell in love with Chloe when she was in If These Walls Could Talk.

    The compound girl is scary stuff.  I mean, just a nasty piece of work.  And it's so funny, because nasty girls like that always sing.  Why is that?

    I love Chloe's mom because she's so awful.  The actress playing her is one of my long-time faves.  She's got her own code and she sticks to it.  

    Parent

    I used to like Curb (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:18:31 PM EST
    your Enthusiasm, but now that Larry David wrote that hit peace on Hillary, no way.  

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#223)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:42:12 PM EST
    you really want an answer for that???

    Parent
    Laura Dern as Katherin Harris (4.50 / 2) (#39)
    by angie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:31:57 PM EST
    is worth the price of admission.

    Parent
    Is Laura As Over The Top As Harris? (none / 0) (#37)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:28:11 PM EST


    Parent
    I will watch (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 07:57:45 PM EST
    Not sure I'll comment throughout, though.

    The beforehand featureette is stupid, as usual.

    Oh, and I did not turn it on because I missed the (5.00 / 0) (#3)
    by BarnBabe on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:10:47 PM EST
    first hour. I figure I will catch it tomorrow night. I hope it is good. And since the OpenT is closed, I will just have to mention that it was pretty exciting watching the engineers and NASA people when the Phoenix touched down on Mars. Pictures should be at 9:45. Not only was this exciting, I had to notice that there were a lot of people over 45 and I bet they vote. A lot of intelligence and knowledge in that room. They should be very proud of their accomplishments.

    PS-Don't tell me the ending. HA!

    Parent

    Mars (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by DandyTIger on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:22:51 PM EST
    Same here, had to watch the first pictures from the polar mars lander. wow, nice. Looks like everything went perfectly well. Cheers to the team, and to all of NASA. My old chums.

    Parent
    Christopher and Baker (none / 0) (#10)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:25:39 PM EST
    played by English actors.  

    Street Fighter vs XXX (none / 0) (#16)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:30:43 PM EST
    Baker going for a street (court) fight from the start; Christopher recommending no litigation, gentlemen's procedure....

    Parent
    And is that (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by daryl herbert on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:11:26 PM EST
    how it really happened?

    Remember that Katherine Harris was Sec. State. Once she shut down the recounts, the only way for Gore to get past her was to take his case to the state courts.

    The idea that Gore was going to fight the recount battle without lawyers is revisionist history written by lawyer-bashers.

    Parent

    According to the Movie (none / 0) (#267)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:45:29 AM EST
    It's the way the Gore side began -- assuming the FL issue would  best be approached as a gentlemen's dispute.  

    Parent
    We try to be fair and proper (5.00 / 0) (#212)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:27:41 PM EST
    while they go for the throat.

    Parent
    James Baker drinks Dr. Pepper (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:27:01 PM EST


    Everyone in Texas does (none / 0) (#48)
    by angie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:51:50 PM EST
    There is a big Dr. Pepper plant in Dallas -- I went to college in Texas and that is all they ever served. I, of course, can't stand that junk.

    Parent
    I actually love Dr. Pepper, even diet (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:54:58 PM EST
    And if you buy bottles of the Original from Dublin, you can get it made with Imperial Cane Sugar.

    Parent
    Have you noticed (none / 0) (#63)
    by kredwyn on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:00:42 PM EST
    that the stuff from the fountain tastes better than the bottled?

    I still get it up here in MD, but for some reason I can't drink it out of the bottle.

    Parent

    To me, every soda tastes better out of the can (none / 0) (#73)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:12:37 PM EST
    There's a reason for that: the seal is better than with a plastic bottle cap.

    Now if you can get a glass bottle with a metal cap. . .that's a whole different story. Once when I was in third grade, I got a case of 6 & 1/2 Oz Coke bottles, and later learned that they were from the last batch bottled in Philly. That was 1993 or so.

    Most variations from fountains are due to water quality, syrup mix, or level of carbonation. And fountains are almost always "wrong" in some way or another.

    Parent

    still get the small bottles here (none / 0) (#88)
    by DandyTIger on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:25:23 PM EST
    so if you like it, you'll all have to move here to Charlottesville. Tommy Jefferson will thank you. :-) And yes, it is better in those smaller bottles.

    Parent
    My good friends from college (none / 0) (#231)
    by mulletov cocktails on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:11:01 AM EST
    had their wedding reception at Luckenbach and had cane sugar dp rather than a champagne toast.

    Parent
    It was invented in Waco (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:14:53 PM EST
    I went to the Dr. Pepper museum there during my brother's rather brief sojourn as a professor at Baylor.

    Parent
    Sounds Great (none / 0) (#13)
    by Alegre on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:28:08 PM EST
    Makes me wish we had cable!  If you guys post enough about it though it'll be like the rest of are watching it right along with you ;o)

    I have cable (none / 0) (#17)
    by sister of ye on Sun May 25, 2008 at 08:31:33 PM EST
    but not them hifalutin' premium channels. So it's meerkats for me.

    On the other hand, the meerkat movie was all about a powerful female warrior-leader named Flower, and was narrated by Clinton supporter Whoopi Goldberg, so that's not all bad. I'm sure if meerkats wore pantsuits, she would've had one.

    It's all process now (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:02:48 PM EST
    and guess what, I know the end. . .

    Shhh...don't give the ending (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:04:04 PM EST
    away...Gosh.  

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#125)
    by ding7777 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:49:10 PM EST
    The BigOrange has a diary HBO's Recount post-talk (Spoilers!)

    (and they call Hillary supporters the low-information voter)

    Parent

    And Joe Lieberman on the speakerphone (none / 0) (#21)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:06:42 PM EST
    defending the precious military ballots. . .

    The script is cruel to Lieberman (5.00 / 4) (#93)
    by Cream City on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:27:08 PM EST
    and justly so, when he wouldn't stay on script but -- as the movie puts it -- decided to grab the spotlight to begin running for president in 2004.

    I said at the time of the campaign that Lieberman was one of the major mistakes of that campaign -- and we saw this week that one of our candidates has hired the same screener again to find him a VP.  So will the next pick really be a closet Republican, too?

    Parent

    If I were going to run against Al Gore (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:31:12 PM EST
    in a Democratic primary today, Joe Lieberman would a a useful cudgel on the question of judgement.

    Parent
    In retrospect (none / 0) (#120)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:45:31 PM EST
    the right choice was Bob Graham.

    Parent
    So True (5.00 / 1) (#261)
    by MO Blue on Mon May 26, 2008 at 05:49:02 AM EST
    I thought so at the time. Graham would have made a great VP choice.

    Parent
    Do you think Lieberman is a closet Republican? (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:40:37 PM EST
    I thought he was simply an opportunist. When Democratic stopped working, he went Independent, and now has found a door that's open just enough for him to squeeze through.

    Is he starting to vote with McCain these days? It looks obvious he's hoping for a big promotion for himself, whether it's VP or a cabinet post, probably doesn't matter.


    Parent

    No, I don't think he is in the closet (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:00:39 PM EST
    I think his 'Independent Democrat' label is just another name for pro-choice Republican.  He has endorsed McCain.

    Parent
    Thanks - (none / 0) (#184)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:10:20 PM EST
    I thought he was such an awful waffle on the Gore ticket that I have not watched anything about him that didn't get a ridiculous level of news coverage.


    Parent
    Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:32:35 PM EST
    a neo-lib so picking a fellow closet Republican would be consistent.

    Parent
    When we take back the White House this year - (none / 0) (#22)
    by Invictus on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:08:12 PM EST
    - the first thing on the agenda should be sweeping election reform to standardize voting processes, protect the votes, and make it easier for people to register and cast their ballots.

    By "we" you mean "Hillary" (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by angie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:40:18 PM EST
    I assume because the angels will weep at the hypocrisy of Obama taking up the cause of "count every vote."

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by nell on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:22:53 PM EST
    in FL it was a republican controlled legislature who tied the date of the primary to a bill that required a paper trail for voting...the Dems had to vote for the paper trail bill, but there was no way to vote for that without also voting for the primary. They fought against it and tried to get the date of the primary changed, but they were unsuccessful given that the Dems were in the minority. The republicans wanted more influence in their own primary this year, and they were penalized by the RNC with a 50 percent reduction in their delegates. Thus, it was not really in the Dems hands what happened in FL, which is one reason why it is clear that they were punished WAY too harshly. Since neither the delegates nor the supers had any control over what happened in FL, it is hard to understand how they could be punished.

    Michigan is a bit more complicated and the Democrats did have more control over what happened. They were trying to make a point about IA and NH having too much control over the nominee, while the dire economic concerns of states like MI get ignored. It is a fair point, I think, and I hope the DNC will take that point into consideration in the future when laying out the schedule. Still, it seems like the appropriate punishment would be to strip the supers who broke the rules, and not the voters who just showed up to carry out their civic duties.

    And, of course, even if you think FL and MI need to be punished harshly, you have to wonder why IA, NH, SC, and NV, all of whom also moved up their primaries were not punished for the same sins...

    Parent

    As the GOP did. It actually has played fair (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Cream City on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:34:23 PM EST
    in the same situation.  It stuck to its 50 percent penalty, too, while Prima Donna Brazile and her minions amended that same rule for the Dems to punish two states going strongly for Clinton.  

    And the Republicans also stuck to their penalty for other states going too soon, not just FL and MI, while P.D. Brazile and her minions changed the rules yet again to exempt the four others -- figuring that they would be Obama's, too.  

    Of course, then NH came through for Clinton, so Obama had to go after her by going after her strength with AAs -- many of whom had stuck by her 'til then -- and that was led by P.D. Brazile as well, who somehow saw "fairy tale" as racist, followed by Obama campaign co-chair J.Jackson, Jr., too, even though Jackson, Sr. stood up for Bill Clinton.

    So then it got even nastier in NV -- as it has remained, with Obamans' behavior in recaucusing to the point that LV couldn't even conduct its recaucus on time.  And, and . . . well, there is an HBO movie in the making again.  And this time, some of the Dems won't come off as conducting themselves with dignity for the sake of democracy.

    Parent

    we need to (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Edgar08 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:36:32 PM EST
    but we won't.


    Parent
    Check the site rules. You have 2 comments (none / 0) (#139)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:54:55 PM EST
    left. I'm waiting with bated breath.

    Parent
    I'm guessing that it isn't a new visitor (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:58:22 PM EST


    Parent
    Most annoying troll in a while (3.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:05:47 PM EST
    and considering what we've gotten lately, that's saying a lot.  Who do you think it is?  What was that one--ObamaMama?  God, s/he was awful.

    Parent
    LOL... the style is the same, isn't it? (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:08:46 PM EST
    the drunken fauxmniloquence and total ignorance of the facts.

    Parent
    She's broken down fast. (5.00 / 3) (#186)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:11:50 PM EST
    It doesn't take them long to lose coherence when the try to argue here. Amusing, but sad.

    Parent
    She's following the instructions for turning the (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:12:58 PM EST
    Hillary supporters to the Obama to the letter. They are posted on the internet somewhere.


    Parent
    I think that they've all been the same person (none / 0) (#171)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:06:16 PM EST
    Jeralyn will be able to say for sure.

    Parent
    My money is on ObamaMama. (none / 0) (#175)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:07:31 PM EST


    Parent
    WaVoter Your Ignorance (5.00 / 0) (#218)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:36:21 PM EST
    is on display again.

    The penalty (itself improperly administered in violation of its own rules) wasn't assessed until AFTER the primaries were moved up.

    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:50:55 PM EST
    It has proven a vary effective tactic. Look for it in a Republican controlled state near you in 2012.

    Parent
    Where is Ron Klain? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:45:55 PM EST


    Kevin Spacey is Klain n/t (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by angie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:52:32 PM EST


    Parent
    I know... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:53:45 PM EST
    in real life, now?  has he picked a side?

    Parent
    Oops! sorry! (none / 0) (#58)
    by angie on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:56:33 PM EST
    Duh.

    Parent
    It looked like he was (none / 0) (#103)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:35:44 PM EST
    working for Warren Christopher's law firm there at the end of the movie.

    Parent
    Cannot be 2 parts? (none / 0) (#53)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:54:24 PM EST


    I thought it was about 40 minutes too long (none / 0) (#55)
    by andgarden on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:55:40 PM EST
    to begin with.

    Parent
    Thought it was good (none / 0) (#82)
    by Slado on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:18:31 PM EST
    of course it was slanted but I thought it was pretty fair and told the story in an entertaining way.   Also the old video made me realise how old GW and Gore are now.  GW has gotten much greyer and Gore has put on a few lbs.

    I wonder if James Baker is as cool a guy as they made him out to be.  

    The best scenes where the last three where both heads of the recount teams gave their speeches and then Leary and Spacey walking to the plane.   Leary summed it up the best.  If a few things had happened who knows, but they didn't so here we are.

    Dems need to move on to the current counting controversy ;)

    At least there were no beheadings (none / 0) (#140)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:56:03 PM EST
    in Recount, unlike 'the Tudors'.  Ick.

    Please tell me Gore won . (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:01:42 PM EST


    Parent
    Tell me Bill won! (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Regency on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:06:08 PM EST
    If they had to overturn the Constitution, please tell me they did it right.

    Parent
    I watched both (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by janarchy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:22:41 PM EST
    Pretty depressing to relive both 2000 and then being reminded that we haven't changed much in the last 500 years in terms of smear campaigns, torture and political machinations.

    I had to put on "Anchors Aweigh" in order to cheer up.

    Parent

    DON'T RUIN IT FOR ME! (none / 0) (#142)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:56:36 PM EST
    Dude, I Tivo'd!

    Parent
    Don't ruin it??? I think you know (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by zfran on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:27:49 PM EST
    how it ends. If not, well they got the broomstick of the wicked witch of the west and gave it to the wizard, whose real identity became known when toto pulled back the curtain, and exposed the man, just a man.

    Parent
    Reminds me of something that (none / 0) (#264)
    by samanthasmom on Mon May 26, 2008 at 06:53:43 AM EST
    happened a few years ago. My son was a teenager and taking his new girlfriend to see Titanic.  As they were leaving the house, I yelled out, "BTW, the boat sinks!" Apparently, when they got out the door, she told him that people like me who ruin the end of a movie should be ashamed of ourselves.  She was a "one date wonder".

    Parent
    Sorry!!!!! (none / 0) (#176)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:07:49 PM EST
    I didn't say who though!!!!

    Parent
    Showtime doesn't hold back at all. (none / 0) (#177)
    by Joan in VA on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:08:24 PM EST
    The gorier, the better! Though I don't find the beheadings to be as bad as that poor guy they boiled in oil.

    Parent
    the oil was pretty graphic (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by Kathy on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:13:33 PM EST
    Did you see the tarring and feathering on John Adams?  And this was before Goop-off!

    Dexter is pretty good-much, much better than the books.

    Parent

    Oh yeah, that was horrible. (5.00 / 0) (#201)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:19:54 PM EST
    Not enough goo-gone in the world to fix that.

    I like Dexter too - haven't read the books.  Weeds starts soon too. Something to look forward to, since I'm pretty sure I won't be able to watch the news this summer and fall.

    Parent

    Ha! True. (none / 0) (#190)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:12:29 PM EST


    Parent
    Where did you hear that? (none / 0) (#199)
    by longtimewatcher on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:18:57 PM EST
    I understood from Dean that it was some nationwide cable ads where they couldn't carve out Florida (actually, if memory serves me correct, it was just Tampa) and BO's campaign cleared it with DNC.

    It wasn't just tampa.. it was the whole state (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by MarkL on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:21:44 PM EST
    There's no excuse for that.

    Parent
    It wasn't just Tampa (5.00 / 3) (#206)
    by ruffian on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:24:04 PM EST
    I saw them in Orlando.  Yes, his excuse was that he could only do a national ad buy and they wouldn't let him exclude FL. He got an OK from the South Carolina Dems because that was the only primary left of the 4 permitted early ones that had not gone yet when the ad ran.  Gee - imagine SC Dems telling him 'no'.

    Point is, he ran and ad against the pledge. No one else did.

    Parent

    obama ads (5.00 / 1) (#238)
    by tedsim on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:33:31 AM EST
    I saw them in north palm beach.

    Parent
    There was no reason to run National adds (none / 0) (#266)
    by TeresaInPa on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:58:35 AM EST
    it would have been cheaper to run state adds in each state coming up.  If they DNC approved they were wrong to do so.  Obama broke rules time after time.  He is the Democratic party version of the bush campaign as far as I am concerned.

    Parent
    Rule Mandate (none / 0) (#268)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:16:41 PM EST
    I believe the Rules mandate stripping candidate of primary delegates from any State where the candidate campaigned (including advertising) in violation of rules.

    Parent
    Wow...Recount (none / 0) (#249)
    by gmo on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:02:25 AM EST
    Haven't read through the rest of the thread yet, but the thing that struck me most after having wached Recount:  

    Is there any question that all the votes from MI & FL should be counted?

    Kerry is a weak Dem elite (none / 0) (#270)
    by lily15 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:31:56 AM EST
    who is now supporting Obama.  What more is there to know>|?  Weak Dem elites are the bane of the Democratic party.  Only Clinton and LBJ had balls. And  Hillary of course.

    Recount Open Thread | 214 comments (214 topical)