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Open Thread and Diary Rescue

I'll be at the jail the rest of the afternoon. Here's an open thread. Just step over the hate-stuff that is really piling up out there in the blogosphere. They manufacture and misrepresent what others write when the others don't share their views. Tolerance? Unfortunately, it's sorely lacking. [More...]

Should you spot a site violator here, just respond to the comment with "site violator" and the commenter's name. I'll take care of the rest when I return. Otherwise ignore them and don't hit back with the same tactics. Don't take the bait. Your response likely will go down the rabbit hole with their objectionable comments.

I'm not talking about those who express a different point of view civilly and without chattering or trying to dominate or hijack threads. I'm talking about those who engage in personal attacks, insults, name-calling or purposely spreading misinformation.

A word to our regular commenters as well: Please refrain from personal and character attacks on each other and on the candidates and their families. If you can't express yourself without resorting to personal attacks or race or gender-baiting, you're on the wrong site.

BTD and I take this election seriously. We are trying to inform readers while sharing our individual points of view. Personal attacks, ridicule, name-calling and race-baiting lowers the level of discourse on the site. It's unacceptable regardless of who you support.

We've got new reader diaries up -- check them out and recommend those you like. They may or may not coincide with the views of TalkLeft.

Comments now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    McCain has now defended (5.00 / 9) (#1)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:17:51 PM EST
    Hillary from Obama's pastor friend, as has a higher up in the Catholic church, as has a woman how spoke at Trinity right before the pastor, and yet Obama couldn't muster one kind word for Hillary as he distanced himself from his friend.  Amazing.

    Oh, and neither have any (5.00 / 10) (#2)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:18:27 PM EST
    Democratic Party "elders".  Astonishing.

    Parent
    I have yet to see anyone in that 2-fer who (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:23:02 PM EST
    have sincerely stepped up for Hillary.  It is a shame that on many levels the democrats have turned out to be as ugly as the republicans.  Much of this campaign reminds me of those run by gwb and his crew.

    Parent
    I'd never thought I would actually (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:24:47 PM EST
    say this, but I think much of this campaign is worse than gwb and his crew. Sick!

    Parent
    you are out of touch with reality. (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:31:53 PM EST
    seriously.

    Remember colored terrorist alerts when Kerry was making progress ith his message?

    Remember the Swiftboats? Remember Sinclair Broadcasting wanting to play the "anti Kerry" documentary on all its stations 4 days before the election?

    Nope, uh-uh.

    Parent

    But how about the 2000 election? (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:04 PM EST
    I think the comparison is very apt.

    Parent
    ok...maybe (none / 0) (#46)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:52 PM EST
    but the playing of politics over the mess made by the DNC is inevidable. Both camps are trying to influence this, and I agree it's disgraceful.

    Parent
    relax...I think we all know that this campaign (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:56 PM EST
    has seen things a democrat would never do...and it is worse than a gwb campaign because that is not how we roll...

    Parent
    I really don't think history backs that up (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:45:59 PM EST
    Dems have done plenty of bad things during campaigns.

    Our biggest differences, as you know, are in our policies.

    Parent

    I had your thoughts about how the democrats roll (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by mogal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:47:49 PM EST
    ...for 30 years.  But No MORE... NO MORE. The party doesn't want me anymore.

    Parent
    Watch MSNBC much? (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:50:23 PM EST
    Keith Olbermann?  Randi Rhoades?  I would list blogs but there are too many that have jumped the shark.

    Parent
    not if I can help it. (none / 0) (#117)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:06 PM EST
    (shudder).

    I have been watching the FLDS stuff on Larry King, and occasionally TDS/Colbert

    Parent

    Could it be the same group that packaged GWB? (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by mogal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:31:15 PM EST
    Everyone forgets the dumb things Reagan said and did because just like Bush and now Obama the Media followed a script. I will say Reagan read his lines better. Why he could have been an actor.

    Parent
    What amazes me is that Obama's (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:23:26 PM EST
    campaign says that the message of Father Mike is not the message He wants to impart to everyone, and yet, the message He heard for 20 years coming out of Trinity church was just like yesterday's hate!

    Parent
    So... (3.00 / 2) (#17)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:19 PM EST
    ...you've attended Trinity for 20 years and can make this judgement based on first hand knowledge?  Or is that just your impression from watching a few videos on the interwebs?

    Parent
    I have never been to Trinity (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:32:05 PM EST
    but I think you miss the point.  Both Wright and Pfleger are giving sermons that do Violence, both in how they are delivered and in the content of what they are saying.  The way they are screaming is angry, hateful, and it is the way someone sounds before they do bodily harm to someone.  It is truly hateful, violent speech.  I don't care if it is 3 minutes long.  It cannot be defended.

    Parent
    Double standard (5.00 / 6) (#56)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:38:17 PM EST
    What amazes me are all the "progressives" who are anti religion and who hammer the right wing religious nuts who spew hatred, yet they do not have the courage to criticize it when it comes from "their side".  I know many friars, nuns and priests who work in Liberation Theology.  And in no way do they ever use hatred as their starting point for their message.  

    Parent
    And you, of course... (1.00 / 3) (#42)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:35:09 PM EST
    ...have never, ever been angry or hateful about anything or anybody in your entire life.  Must be nice to be such a saint.

    Parent
    Of course I have been (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:43 PM EST
    angry, don't you get the difference between a person being angry and a pastor or priest preaching hate toward a specific person from the pulpit.  Of course you get the difference, you are just being intentionally stupid.

    Parent
    Yes... (1.00 / 0) (#69)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:43:28 PM EST
    ...because I see things differently I'm being intentionally stupid.  Duuuur, me not think so well.

    Perhaps you can explain to me how this...

    "This pastor friend of Obama's went to Obama's church and said Hillary "cried" in NH becuase she's white and felt entitled to the nomination."

    ...rises to the level of hate? Sounds like one man's opinion to me.  I guess because it's anti-Hillary he's not entitled to that opinion.

    Parent

    I did not say you were (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:47:45 PM EST
    stupid because you see things differently...you somehow approve of Father Pfleger's comments, good for you.  I was talking about your inability to see the difference between someone being angry and someone using a pulpit to preach hate.

    Parent
    That was a para-phrase... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:50:50 PM EST
    and doesn't begin to convey the hate this guy was peddling. You obviously have a computer and are on the web. Google it and watch yourself or read a transcript. You can probably get the transcript still from ABC news. The come back and do the WORM, Pastor-style, for us.

    Parent
    Hardly (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by squeaky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:57:11 PM EST
    Do you think that the concept of white entitlement was something so new and shocking to the Trinity congregation that they were being inspired to hate?

    Business as usual for most AA's in america. Nothing more that a yawn, imo. At best, something like 'no kidding'.

    Parent

    the man's an ass. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:35 PM EST
    sorry, but as a white woman, I get really sick of just this sort of bs.

    If you cannot see it, it doesn't mean you are dumb....just perhaps limited in your experiences and ability to empathize.

    Parent

    When we grow, we become a product of (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:35:13 PM EST
    where we've been. All the good/bad. Here are 2 examples in one church of hate speech being spewed and here is Sen. Obama (and children) listening to all of this. If this is "backward thinking", as he would have you believe, then what reason could he have to stay and listen to sermons at this church, and not once admit to trying to change "their" thinking, have his pastor as his "uncle" figure and spiritual advisor and have a Catholic priest a spiritual advisor to his campaign. I could write for you for pages, but I won't.

    Parent
    My response above is to MileHi Hawkeye (none / 0) (#44)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:05 PM EST
    Doesn't take a genius (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:25 PM EST
    to figure out what Trinity is all about.  Unless of course one is slower to pick up a message...say, like almost twenty years too slow?

    Parent
    You already know the answer... (none / 0) (#25)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:31:21 PM EST
    It really is (5.00 / 8) (#15)
    by LoisInCo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:01 PM EST
    disturbing to me, that when one of Obama's intimates DIRECTLY attacks Clinton in such a disgusting manner that he can't even bring himself to say "that man was wrong about Senator Clinton." So easy so simple. Uniting. He deserves nothing from Clinton supporters this election. Nothing.

    Parent
    Because his entire inner circle feels this way. (5.00 / 6) (#63)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:41:16 PM EST
    There have been too many of these venomous outbursts from people in Obama's inner circle. It is obvious by now that he truly feels this way too. He just regrets the harm the outbursts do to his campaign. He never apologizes to Hillary because that is not where he perceives the damage to be. The White House is going to be a freaking insane asylum if this group gets the keys.

    Parent
    And he will get nothing. (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:53:36 PM EST
    How many more ways can he find to say he doesn't care about her supporters? Or "Unity?" The RFK nonsense was bad enough, but would saying one nice thing about Clinton break his tongue?

    That's okay, Senator Obama. Sweetie. You just go ahead and win the GE without Clinton's supporters. We'll just be bitterly, periodically down on Election Day. I'm sure the Unity Pony will carry you over the finish line.

    I'd laugh, but it's so delusional that I feel like crying instead.

    Parent

    Clinton's supporters? (3.00 / 2) (#180)
    by jondee on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:26:37 PM EST
    I thought they were mostly McCain supporters.

    I mean, that's how I would play it: go to Left leaning sites and do my damndest to make Obama sound like a woman-hater who's one step away from sneaking upon Lillie Belle your hair is golden brown in the middle of the night.

    And, lets face it! That Rev P. hates white people and America! And that sinks it for me, by God!

    Parent

    "Deeply disappointed" (5.00 / 6) (#23)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:31:02 PM EST
    I wish someone would ask Obama the following:

    You say you were "deeply disappointed" by the slanderous remarks that Fr. Pfleger made on Sunday about Hillary Clinton, in which he implied that she was racist and felt entitled by white supremacy.

    Are you also similarly disappointed by the conduct of Rev. Otis Moss, who gave Pfleger a glowing introduction before his sermon and profuse praise afterwards? Are you also deeply disappointed in the conduct of the congregation, who cheered and roared as Pfleger made his "deeply disappointing" remarks?

    If you aren't disappointed, why not?

    If you are, then why did you recently praise Moss as a "wonderful young pastor", and why did you feel comfortable staying in the Trinity community for so long?

    Parent

    touche (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:35 PM EST
    That's Good News (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by flashman on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:44:22 PM EST
    Actually, I've always liked McCain. I'll never forget how he defended Obama against the gasbag radio guy at one of his rallies.  I so wish to have the two most honerable candidates at the GE.  Sigh

    Parent
    Gawd (5.00 / 5) (#107)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:55:17 PM EST
    Why are they so foolish?  Why give McCain a free shot at disaffected Clinton voters by playing this "we don't see why we should apologize for what someone else said" game?  They might be 100% justified in making that point.  It's still stupid.

    Are people in the Obama camp really, truly convinced that they have a winning "new coalition" and don't need any more help?  Say it ain't so.

    Parent

    It's not "they" it's him. (5.00 / 0) (#115)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:58:25 PM EST
    He's arrogant.  

    Parent
    Simple Answer, YES n/t (5.00 / 0) (#147)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:11:58 PM EST
    Astonishing (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:14 PM EST
    truly astonishing. How hard is it for the DNC and Obama to speak out and reject this treatment of Hillary Clinton? It is despicable.

    That is really what has burned me up so much this election that the DNC nor Obama have once stood up firmly and say this is wrong
    and isults like this directed to Sen. Clinton have no room in this democratic process. They never not once call out the media (Keith Olerman and the likes)  or
    Wright about the specific insults he threw to Hillary and Bill Clinton. Not once I heard the Dean, Pelosi, or Obama express explicit outrage at what was being said to Hillary Clinton and many times  directly or indirectly to millions of other people : women, jews, italians, etc etc etc....

    It is unbelievable....

    Parent

    And Randy Rhodes! (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:08:43 PM EST
    how could I forget the disgraceful comments by Randy Rhodes...
    Did anyone ever from the DNC (Dean, pelosi?  where were you?)  or Obama condemn her for insulting HRC specifically?  She was
    in a fundraiser (for the radio&Obama with his supporters...)

    Silence... Always silence. How could they?  I cannot think of any reason other than because they  agreed.

    It is very painful to have witnessed and lived through this and coming  from Democrats...

    Parent

    correction (none / 0) (#143)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:09:50 PM EST
    meant :  " Did anyone ever hear ..."  above.

    Parent
    Wha? (none / 0) (#3)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:21:48 PM EST
    What did he say about her?

    Parent
    Which he? (none / 0) (#6)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:23:47 PM EST
    Father Mike Pfleger (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:27:45 PM EST
    He campaigned for Obama in Iowa, is a white priest at a black church in Chicago

    Parent
    Are you saying that... (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:55 PM EST
    ...his parish is mostly black or that the Catholic Church is a black church.  'Cause if it is the later, I may have to rethink my racial identity.

    Parent
    his church has mostly (none / 0) (#61)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:40:44 PM EST
    Black parishoners

    Parent
    Thanks! (none / 0) (#38)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:39 PM EST
    And what did he say?

    Parent
    Rough and inaccurate summation (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by Fabian on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:29 PM EST
    Hillary was crying because here she was - a White, Entitled Woman married to a former POTUS and all that was being unfairly taken away from her by some young black man who didn't bow down to her cuz she was White and he was Black.

    In other words, Hillary Clinton was stripped of all she has done in her life, personally and politically and reduced to a caricature of a White Woman standing in the way of a Black Man.  

    Must be that National Dialog on Race that Obama was talking about.

    Parent

    Thank you Fabian. (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:01:11 PM EST
    And...nice to come across you again!

    Parent
    Accurate summation (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:14:57 PM EST
    and you must read because a certain someone (BTD) is mentioned....

    WSJ

    Parent

    Well....that was something....reading it was (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:36:11 PM EST
    just as, if not, more offensive.

    Parent
    the pastor (none / 0) (#10)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:26:55 PM EST
    and are you talking about Wright?

    Parent
    No. Where have you been? (none / 0) (#11)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:27:35 PM EST
    I don't really keep up with this stuff (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:17 PM EST
    I have a job and two little kids and am involved in local sustainable issues. IOW I am very very busy. If you don't want to converse with me about your comment, fine.

    Parent
    I'll converse with you. (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:36 PM EST
    It was just kind of a big story.  This pastor friend of Obama's went to Obama's church and said Hillary "cried" in NH becuase she's white and felt entitled to the nomination.

    Parent
    Oh man (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:39:27 PM EST
    that is f-ing bull. Frankly it makes Obama's camp look mean-spirited.

    Parent
    I wish he was better (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:54:40 PM EST
    he really seems quite milquetoast to me now. He came out of the gate so strong, too.

    Parent
    BTD posted the video here (none / 0) (#49)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:59 PM EST
    yesterday morning.

    Parent
    Geraldine Ferraro (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:26:16 PM EST
    has an op ed piece in the Boston Globe

    Nicely put (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by Mike H on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:59 PM EST
    Thanks for the link, it's a good piece.  Geraldine has clearer vision than many of the party leaders right now.

    Parent
    How about we nominate.... (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:09 PM EST
    Ferraro/Wright...they are more honest than Clinton/Obama, and they cover all the identity politic bases:)

    Parent
    She's not very good (1.00 / 2) (#39)
    by cannondaddy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:40 PM EST
    at expressing herself without being divisive.

    Parent
    Well she's certainly not as good as (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by cosbo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:37 PM EST
    Rev. Wright and Father (Ick) Pfidiot.

    Parent
    But... (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Mike H on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:39:15 PM EST
    Is it divisiveness to acknowledge that something has been divisive?  That's the main thing she's doing in her piece, in my opinion.

    Acknowledging the reality of what's gone on and the reality of many voter experiences and opinions... is that divisive in and of itself?  

    Parent

    Not what she said (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by cannondaddy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:42:39 PM EST
    but how she said it.  I think she was trying to make a valid point.

    Parent
    Oh, that's rich. (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by pie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:12:03 PM EST
    After what you all said about her after her earlier remarks?  She was right then, and she's right now.  If you didn't want racism to be an issue, Obama and his surrogates should have kept their mouths shut.

    Ferraro was not going to be intimidated.  She knows how the game is played.  Some of you will learn the hard way, I'm afraid.


    Parent

    to be fair (none / 0) (#99)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:00 PM EST
    people are poised to be offended at the moment

    Parent
    Thanks bjorn...sums everything up very well (none / 0) (#20)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:30:11 PM EST
    The Cardinal (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:26:18 PM EST
    "STATEMENT OF FRANCIS CARDINAL GEORGE, O.M.I., ARCHBISHOP OF CHICAGO
    Friday, May 30, 2008

    Statement of Cardinal Francis George concerning remarks of
    Fr. Michael Pfleger about Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton during
    an address at Trinity United Church of Christ on Sunday May 25, 2008

    The Catholic Church does not endorse political candidates. Consequently, while a priest must speak to political issues that are also moral, he may not endorse candidates nor engage in partisan campaigning.

    Racial issues are both political and moral and are also highly charged. Words can be differently interpreted, but Fr. Pfleger's remarks about Senator Clinton are both partisan and amount to a personal attack. I regret that deeply.

    To avoid months of turmoil in the church, Fr. Pfleger has promised me that he will not enter into campaigning, will not publicly mention any candidate by name and will abide by the discipline common to all Catholic priests."

    Looks like that promise has already been (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:01 PM EST
    broken...

    Parent
    Time for Obama to disown the cardinal! (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:30:29 PM EST
    And yet... (5.00 / 5) (#33)
    by Mike H on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:09 PM EST
    despite how clearly inappropriate the Father's remarks were, and despite HIS having acknowledged that, AND Obama having acknowledged that, there are those who see this incident as a bad thing for CLINTON, because she "stepped over the line in responding" to inappropriate remarks levelled directly at her.  ("How dare she tell a priest what he can or can't say in his own church" is the kind of thing I've read in the past few days.)

    The inconsistency and flat-out prejudice of some so-called progressives towards Clinton is mind-boggling and deeply disturbing.

    Parent

    Except it wasn't the priest's own church. (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by oculus on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:59 PM EST
    Not his parish.  Not even a Catholic parish.

    Parent
    Wha? (none / 0) (#40)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:41 PM EST
    Someone claimed she had stepped over the line???

    Parent
    If they only cracked..... (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:56 PM EST
    down on pedophiles in their ranks so quickly.

    Then again, pedophiles don't threaten their tax-exempt status.

    Parent

    Sorry (none / 0) (#126)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:01:51 PM EST
    While the Church has been lax on cracking down on the relatively few pedophiles, can we move past making that the only thing about the Catholic Church, please?  Yup - it's done some horrible things, including covering up for pedophile priests, and it's a bit antiquated with respect to women, but it's lasted for over 2000 years for a reason, so there must be some good things about it.  It's also the largest single denomination in the US, and has over 800 million members worldwide, so when the Church (including priests, which for the most part AREN'T pedophiles) is painted with a broad brush, it really comes off as Catholic-hate.

    BTW - there are pedophiles in Protestant denominations, and pedophile rabbis, and pedophile leaders in every other faith and non-faith, so to make this strictly a "Catholic" issue is disengenuous.

    Parent

    Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:56:54 PM EST
    Good for the Cardinal, but good luck getting this particular priest to toe the line.  It's like Howard Stern promising to take it down a notch.

    Parent
    Good for the Cardinal (none / 0) (#13)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:28:45 PM EST
    I take it this Cardinal.... (none / 0) (#29)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:32:09 PM EST
    wasn't one of the ones calling out Kerry for his abortion stance?

    Parent
    Good for the Cardinal but (none / 0) (#30)
    by liminal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:32:23 PM EST
    boo on the larger Church, which today strengthened the prohibitions against women priests, ensuring that anyone who ordains a woman as a priest will be excommunicated.

    Parent
    Yeah, I bet the archbishop got a call (none / 0) (#197)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:46:25 PM EST
    from either the IRS or the diocesian legal team that mentioned the tax-exempt status being endangered by the political sermons. I know he got an email from me mentioning it the day that awful video became public. I said I was going to write the IRS and ask them to look into the tax-exempt status of Pfleger's church since he was preaching political hate. I also pointed out that what he said contravened everything I had ever heard in the Church which I was raised in. I also demanded that he be removed from his parish. I didn't get an answer, but apparently they got a lot of emails and calls on the same subject. Turmoil, my aunt Fanny, they are shutting up Father Pfleger because if they don't, it's going to cost them. Bigtime. In real money.

    Parent
    People dancing at anti-hillary comments and hate (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by TalkRight on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:32:33 PM EST
    I had heard about the comments at Trinity Church BUT only today watched them. I was really horrified at the people who were there in the Church. I am more saddened at the people's reaction than on the father (who incidentally is Obama's friend and his committee member) who said those comments.

    Agreed that Obama does not share the views with the pastor or other major speakers.. but did You WATCH the crowd that was dancing when the latest comments were being made against Hilary...  I mean the crowd was literally dancing after hearing the demeaning comments against Hillary...

    WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY GO TO THAT CHURCH?

    I just fail to understand how can Obama be a member of this Trinity Church for this long.


    Exactly. (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by OrangeFur on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:41:31 PM EST
    This was the community that was Obama's spiritual family for nearly 20 years. He felt at home there. He chose to be there.

    I don't believe that the folks in that video are representative of African Americans as a whole. My strong guess is that if you tried to give that sermon in front of the NAACP annual meeting, you'd be scorned and booed off the stage.

    I don't believe for a second that Obama didn't know what was going on. Why, of all the churches around, did he choose that one?

    Parent

    What kind of people (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by RalphB on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:48:05 PM EST
    Apparently Barack Obama's kind of people.  Some may but I do not agree that Obama doesn't share the views of those hatemongering preachers and the crowd.  We can HOPE he doesn't but that's all we've got, no evidence either way other than some words.  I think it's been shown that Obama's words are cheap.


    Parent
    The vitriol.... (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:56 PM EST
    is outta hand....I've gone overboard myself with my disdain for all things Democrat and Republican.  We must all remember that we all only speak for ourselves, and that we're all knuckleheads:)

    A peace offering....Unity by Desmond Dekker.

    This is the time that we all should live as one, brothers.
    This is the time that we all should live as one, sisters.
    So come along brothers,
    And come along sisters.
    U.N.I.T.Y.
    This unity.
    So come along brothers and sisters. Whoah-ohhh!

    Aaaaah! Aaaaah!
    We must live as one,
    Coz two wrongs can never make a right.
    Look into the age that we're living in today, brothers.
    Look into the age that we're living in today, sisters.
    So come along brothers,
    And come along sisters.
    U.N.I.T.Y.



    the one sane poster (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:22 PM EST
    at americablog is leaving:

    A.J. Rossmiller . . . Thanks again, and see ya around!

    leaving space for advancment:

    Jacki Schechner thinks a woman would make an exceptional commander in chief. Just not this one:

    Jacki Schechner (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:41:03 PM EST
    is an idiot.  Yes, not this one.  Surely not the one who has the backing of more military figures and Obama and McCain combined, more than any Democrat has had in recent history.  Oh, no, not THAT one.  Sexism is so ingrained in this country even women have a hard time recognizing it.

    Parent
    How anti-Clinton women cope (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Mike H on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:49:41 PM EST
    I think that this is how anti-Clinton women cope with the misogyny that has driven a lot of the lies and negative spin.

    You see, as women, they couldn't be following along with the misogyny, so if they don't like Clinton it has to be for some other reason.  So they tell themselves -- and others -- that they would absolutely vote for a woman, just not this one.

    Even though this one is eminently qualified and has better credentials than her opponent.  Even though every future woman for office could be treated the same way (in which case they may also say the same thing).

    Of course I don't know for sure, I can't read minds, but it's very suspicious when you hear that over and over again, especially when Clinton is being held to a harsher standard than Obama, to then hear "oh, of course a woman would make a great president, just not her".

    If not her, then exactly who would be better??

    Parent

    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by LoisInCo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:40 PM EST
    they feel women like THEM are next in line by virtue of not nominating HER.

    Parent
    Just not her... (none / 0) (#186)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:30:50 PM EST
    you mean like this....

    First time poster a couple of hours ago.  I thought I would get suspended for my response.

    Parent

    dollyanna? (none / 0) (#190)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:35:56 PM EST
    nuf said?

    Parent
    no kidding (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:08 PM EST
    after your comment (which I completely agree with) I just have to post some of the more choice tidbits she wrote:

    I'm finding out some female bloggers are taking me to task for claiming I haven't seen evidence of sexism in the current Democratic primary.
    Perhaps my skin's a little thicker than most when it comes to gender-related issues.
    I've always been more of a guys' girl . . .
    But don't mistake anti-Clinton sentiment for sexism. There is a distinction.

    **

    I could go on but . . . why.
    if you think you can take the whole thing, its here:

    Link

    Parent

    make a note (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:33 PM EST
    any criticism of her is sexist and any criticism of either of them is racist.

    as for me, I liked the "Ive always been a guys girl" thing.
    what does that even mean?  its F'ed up on so many levels.

    Parent

    oh geez (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Upstart Crow on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:04:04 PM EST
    "I've always been more of a guys' girl . . ."

    These kind of coy brags always make me barf.

    In the 70s, they used to call it "identifying with the oppressor."

    Harsh term, but it does capture something.

    Parent

    The "guys girls" (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by samanthasmom on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:42:48 PM EST
    I was one of the first women to attend an all-male college, and we took on the "guys" at every turn. We put up with outright harassment from both faculty and other students. We were humiliated, exploited, and told we just couldn't cut it.  But we did, at least those of us who refused to become the "guys' girls". It was pathetic to watch those young women. The girls who "went along to get along" ended up left behind.  Every five years the college invites us back to celebrate how far the "first girls" have gone.  We allow them to exploit us that way because we get to see each other at their expense, but it's depressing when we see that they haven't "gone as far" as we have. It's still a boys club, but the outright sexism has been politely buried. No one ever asks what the young women who didn't make it are doing. It seems they were never even there. So this primary season has opened up a lot of old wounds for 20 women who can't wait for "Homecoming" this year.

    Parent
    And when you ask "well, which woman (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by tigercourse on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:34 PM EST
    than?" the problems start. Because it's hard to find a woman more qualified, or even nearly as qualified, as Clinton.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#144)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:10:12 PM EST
    I haven't read that blog in so long, it's terrible.  But that A.J. guy really knew his stuff.  Will he be blogging anyplace else?

    Parent
    I think he said something (none / 0) (#152)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:13:21 PM EST
    about 'spending more time with his family'.
    but seriously, I have no idea.

    Parent
    Maybe he is writing (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:15:58 PM EST
    a McClellan-style book about what a nutjob his blogging boss was.

    Parent
    I just got my ticket for the RBC meeting tomorrow. (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Iphie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:42:48 PM EST
    I'm in NYC and am planning on taking the train to DC (which is going to put me at Penn Station at an ungodly hour tonight, so that I can be there in time to pick up my credentials).

    I'm wondering if anybody else from the NYC area is going, and if so, what are your transportation plans? Let me know, we could possibly travel together.

    White women don't (5.00 / 4) (#90)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:50:12 PM EST
    have a "leg up" for the Presidency.

    Sure they do... (5.00 / 5) (#110)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:56:47 PM EST
    that's why we have had so many white women for president!!

    (In opposite-land)

    Parent

    Other posters are doing fine (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:00 PM EST
    responding to milehi, without running to Jeralynn.

    agreed (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:29:48 PM EST
    Pfleger is just a fool (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:34 PM EST
    First he does this whole channeling of Wright routine.  Second, about entitlement being a "white thing".  Well Obama is half white, is he "half entitled" driven?  

    Pflegger reminds me of the Bay Area white boys who take on Hip Hope culture and imitate the language and still look and sound like goofy suburban white boys.  

    yeah, (5.00 / 0) (#114)
    by isaac on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:57:56 PM EST
    was he half benefiting from 400 years of oppression when he got to go live with grandma in sunny hawaii and got sent to the finest schools?  it sure as hell wasnt the opressed half that threw her under the bus, black folk dont do that

    Parent
    This is why I love politics (none / 0) (#139)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:07:54 PM EST
    in 2008. The high level of discussion.

    Parent
    He is a pisser.... (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:55:08 PM EST
    no doubt about it.

    But If the president is gonna have a religous nut on the other end of the bat-phone, I'd rather it be Pfleger or Wright than Pat Robertson or any of the right-leaning loons.  

    As much as I strongly disagree with Pfleger on the the majority of issues (remember those?), I get a kick out of him.  If I got hit on the head and decided to join a racket...I mean church...it would probably be Trinity...if they'd take another whiteboy.

    Parent

    Hip Hop...oops (none / 0) (#131)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:03:27 PM EST
    His white half is entitled and (none / 0) (#185)
    by FlaDemFem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:30:12 PM EST
    his black half has Affirmative Action. He can't lose. Snark. sort of.

    Parent
    Now who bothers reading the negative dickwads ? (5.00 / 0) (#119)
    by Hubris on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:16 PM EST
    Keep up the good fight.. there are many of us out there. You must follow your conscious and concern for your country first and foremost.

    This is why we will NOT under any circumstance vote for Barack Obama. period.

    ...now why is it you're going to jail?  !!

    How about Bob Dole's nasty words for Scott McClellan?  Ouch!

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:12:19 PM EST
    Bob Dole has a mean streak a mile wide - and he's one of the "good Republicans" by today's standards.  Remember him marching in lockstep with the Swiftboaters in 2004?

    Any decent Republican should be outraged at what this administration has done to their party's legacy, not to mention the country.  Dole chooses to shoot the messenger instead.

    Parent

    Just up at CNN (5.00 / 0) (#138)
    by mogal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:07:09 PM EST
    As a state senator, Obama once directed a $100,000 grant to a community center affiliated with Pfleger's church.

    Sounds about right!


    Oops. (5.00 / 3) (#142)
    by Iphie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:09:47 PM EST
    Emily's List has endorsed Nikki Tinker over incumbent Democratic Congressman Steve Cohen. Cohen, you may remember, is the congressman who made the Hillary Clinton/Fatal Attraction joke.

    That "oops" (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Iphie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:11:12 PM EST
    is in reference to Cohen's joke, not the endorsement, just to clarify.

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:20:36 PM EST
    Sexism resulting in actual consequences?  I never thought I'd see the day.

    I've always been a big fan of Emily's List, kinda like this gal.

    Parent

    That's a great clip! (none / 0) (#183)
    by Iphie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:28:42 PM EST
    Thanks for that.

    I thought the quote from Rep. Cohen about not getting the endorsement because he has the "wrong plumbing" both highly ironic and really amusing. He really came off sounding bitter. Hm.

    Parent

    Bitter indeed (5.00 / 3) (#188)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:34:08 PM EST
    Maybe he can go cling to his plumbing.

    Parent
    Good For Emily's List (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:28:14 PM EST
    Actions sometimes do have consequences.

    Parent
    I disagree with you (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:12:25 PM EST
    I don't think he was asking for clarification at all.  It was pure unadulterated sarcasm.  :)

    No Sarcasm Allowed At TL? (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by squeaky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:15:44 PM EST
    That is a new one.

    Parent
    No I applaud it (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:16:48 PM EST
    I use it frequently.  Did you miss the  :) at the end.  :)

    Parent
    Oops! (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by squeaky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:19:40 PM EST
    Sorry, I did miss the sideways smiley face.

    Parent
    From a Millenial, post-racial (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by nashville on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:23:50 PM EST
    my daughter, the activist, was telling me about her plans to protest the Conventions this summer.  

    Actually she said, they will not be doing that much protesting at the DNC because "it just wouldn't look right a bunch of young, white students protesting the nomination of a black man."  I almost fell over!!!! If I, of the old "just don't get it generation" had said anything along those PC lines, I would have gotten a very stern lecture & scolding. But my 20 year-old daughter even realizes... one can not criticize Obama for ANYTHING or it will be called racism!

    I am not a racist.  I cried when he announced his candidacy, but I have become so disillusioned with his campaign that he says is not the usual politics when it reeks of more political gamesmanship and divisiveness that the Clintons ever imagined.  I am for Hillary because she is smart, tough, and I for one trust her.

    BTW I am not sure I will vote for president.  My husband & I argue about this regularly, but I don't think he has a snowball's chance in h#!! to win Tennessee.  (He voted for Hillary,too, but says we can't let McCain win.)

    Score one for McCain over Obama (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:54:34 PM EST
    (From taylormarsh.com)Via The Page (sorry - no link) we get Obama's reaction to McCain's Iraq taunt:

        Q: Can you respond to McCain saying you're more willing to meet with Ahmadinejad than with General Petraeus?

        BO: You know, I don't have a -- you know, that's just a, you know, a typical sarcastic comment that doesn't have anything to do with the substance, and is patently untrue since I just saw General Petraeus when he was testifying in Washington.

        Q: He's saying outside of those meetings on the Hill, you would not set up your own meetings with General Petraeus, never attempted to meet with him?

        BO: And I haven't - look, it's just a flippant comment, it's not designed to actually talk about substance. It's a political comment that doesn't get anywhere.

    "hush this one up...." (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:35:07 PM EST
    Hysterical..."the big crazy preacher scandal cover up"...lol  

    Ignore those millions of people behind bars and the bloody foreign occupations behind the curtain...we've gotta nail a particular crazy preacher to a cross, never mind the millions of other crazy preachers, get that one!

    Geraldine Ferraro: More harm to Clinton and Obama (2.25 / 4) (#18)
    by Artoo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:44 PM EST
    Healing the wounds of Democrats' sexism
    As for Reagan Democrats, how Clinton was treated is not their issue. They are more concerned with how they have been treated. Since March, when I was accused of being racist for a statement I made about the influence of blacks on Obama's historic campaign, people have been stopping me to express a common sentiment: If you're white you can't open your mouth without being accused of being racist. They see Obama's playing the race card throughout the campaign and no one calling him for it as frightening. They're not upset with Obama because he's black; they're upset because they don't expect to be treated fairly because they're white. It's not racism that is driving them, it's racial resentment. And that is enforced because they don't believe he understands them and their problems. That when he said in South Carolina after his victory "Our Time Has Come" they believe he is telling them that their time has passed.

    I don't think this helps.

    Calling spade a spade doesn't help.. oh yaa (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by TalkRight on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:48 PM EST
    the father who spewed hate from the pew of Trinity church... people were dancing .. I suppose because that helped!!

    Parent
    There's a difference (1.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Artoo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:40:00 PM EST
    Calling a spade a spade is fine, but when it validates a person's racial bias, then it's destructive.

    Parent
    You can call Ferraro a racist or what ever.. (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by TalkRight on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:43:37 PM EST
    but that is just NOT true. It may help Obama win the nomination BUT not the General Election.. at least not till his frantic supporters stop calling Hillary's supporters RACIST!

    Parent
    Just as some of Obama's supporters are sexist (1.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Artoo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:30 PM EST
    So too, some of Clinton's supporters are racist. The exit polling data in Ohio and West Virginia prove this. Strangely, I haven't heard Clinton renounce or repudiate those voters.

    My post was in regards to Ferraro's article and the fact that I think it does more harm to both candidates - in addition to the harm she's done previously.

    Parent

    Maybe when Obama (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:03:19 PM EST
    renounces his constituency in the Carolinas and in MS,  Hillary will do the same for OH and WV.

    ARE you PEOPLE for real?????????????????

    Parent

    I'd say she harmed Obama by (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:06:26 PM EST
    speaking the truth, frankly. That's why his surrogates went ape over her comments. It's rather like what made Obama furious at Wright. It wasn't  any of the racial stuff.. it was when Wright called Obama a politician.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 0) (#140)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:08:40 PM EST
    I have no doubt that there are some racists voting for Clinton, but suggesting that anyone who says race was a factor in their vote if they voted for Clinton - as many bloggers have done - goes way too far.

    You can't just look at an exit poll and go "look, those 20% of voters, those are the racists!"  Well, unless you're the kind of person who gets off on throwing accusations of racism around, as some people do.

    Parent

    Cruise some of the right's (none / 0) (#170)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:21:23 PM EST
    blogs.  They are BEGGING for race to become an issue in the GE.  They won't hold back.  They are ready and willing to go all the way and no amount of political correctness will stand in their way.

    Just like Obama and allowing his church to say things about the Clintons, the GOP 527s will be in full force, and McCain can distance himself but you can't unring those bells that will be sounding off.

    Parent

    It's possible it may not help Hillary; however (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:53 PM EST
    I think it will resonate very strongly against Obama for the GE.

    Parent
    Absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by kempis on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:38 PM EST
    Can you imagine? If windsurfing hurt Kerry, what the hell will "black liberation theology" do to Obama?

    And here's the catch: he cannot escape this. He proudly referred to Trinity and Reverend Wright during  early campaign stops. Michelle greeted a crown in SC with greetings from her pastor, Jeremiah Wright. Obama told a bunch of people in Idaho that he wasn't a Muslim, like those horrible emails alleged, but that he had been "praising Jesus for twenty years in the same church." And so on.

    When it suited him politically to invoke Trinity, he did so--as late as February in Idaho. Then when the Wright tapes surfaced in March, he began backpedaling. Then when Wright imploded last month, he denounced him.

    But he's praised Reverend Otis Moss, portraying him as a more modern minister and attempting to situate Wright as a dinosaur from the angry, racial conflicts of the past. Not so. Moss is a chip off the old block. Black liberation theology is black liberation theology: unfortunately whites are demonized in it as much as they are in the Nation of Islam. Moss is no different. And considering the villainy of whites ("garlic nosed" Italians, etc.) in that cosmology, it's no coincidence that Wright and Pfleger are close friends with Louis Farrakhan.

    The truth is that Obama has presented himself as the devoted member of a church that is based upon black liberation theology, which is a Christianized cousin of the black muslims.

    Do I believe he really believes all the crazy stuff spouted by his minister and his other spiritual mentor, Father Pfeger? No, because I think he just used that church and those associations to further his political career in Chicago.

    But that means he's lied about something he thought would be a big plus--his faith. It's really necessary for him to sever his ties with Trinity, but he can't. Not now. It's too late. And that church is going to give the GOP one negative ad after another this fall.

    It's incredible. I don't know what Obama and Axelrod and the DNC are thinking. There is no way this man can win the general election with these associations. None.

     

    Parent

    i find this so tawdry. That Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:05:12 PM EST
    coterie is filled with such low-lifes really is depressing.

    Parent
    I completely agree (none / 0) (#181)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:27:01 PM EST
    however, I never thought he could get away with "distancing"  himself from Wright and the media let him get away with that.  at least so far, I know, we are not in the general yet.
    but the point is maybe they will let him get away with saying "never  mind" about the church too.
    at least until, you know, the general election.

    Parent
    She Needs To STFU (3.00 / 2) (#108)
    by flashman on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:55:20 PM EST
    or else find a better way to espress herself.  While I do agree with her about the 'race card', her moranic rants aren't helping her cause in any way.

    Parent
    Actually I think she's expressing the plain (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:16 PM EST
    obvious truth.

    Parent
    Sent that msg of STFU (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:01:03 PM EST
    to the good pastors and visiting priests at Trinty Church in Chicago.

    Parent
    She has expressed (5.00 / 0) (#146)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:11:54 PM EST
    that she'll probably vote for McCain.  I think she IS helping HER cause, just isn't helping YOUR cause.

    Parent
    MY Cause? (none / 0) (#174)
    by flashman on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:22:52 PM EST
    Do you think I'm alone opposing race-baiting politics?  Look around you.

    Parent
    She isn't race-baiting (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:24:17 PM EST
    Sorry, but you're seeing from the perspective of someone who has bought into the lies.

    Parent
    Heh! (none / 0) (#187)
    by flashman on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:33:38 PM EST
    What I've said is that her comments have been moronic.  She needs to find a reasonable way to communicate.  But I also said I agree about the race card ( and added that I oppose race-baiting politics )  I didn't claim that SHE was race-baiting, but if she isn't, then she needs to communicate in a manner that doesn't sound like it.

    Parent
    You know (5.00 / 4) (#193)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:39:31 PM EST
    I'm not sure it's even the least bit avoidable.  Remember, "fairy tale" was racist.  It's a sad reality that you can call anything racist, and in a Democratic primary, some number of liberals are going to buy it.

    Of course Hillary has said some clumsy things in this campaign.  But if it wasn't one thing, it would be another.  The intent to portray her as a race-baiter has been quite calculated and is, in my view, really the only unforgivable development in this whole process.


    Parent

    all true (5.00 / 2) (#200)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:50:03 PM EST
    I think it was part of the plan from the getgo.
    they will try to do the same thing in the gereral.  I dont think it will work.
    and yes unforgivable.  on several levels.
    and I dont mean this to sound like an "after all they have done for them" comment, but the fact is the Clintons, both of them, have worked tirelessly for so many years to make the lives of AA people better.
    while it is easy to understand the excitement of voting for someone who looks like you it is very hard to understand how they can so easily toss them  under the bus.


    Parent
    Steve, I could not agree more (none / 0) (#195)
    by flashman on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:44:53 PM EST
    That's been my biggest rant from the start.  I've commented and daried about it.  But we were talking about Farraro here, and the things she's said are totally different, IMO.  I think she hurts Hillary every time she opens her mouth, and makes it easier for libs to think Hil's campaign is racist.  And, I think what she has said is wrong( Farraro )  Can't she just go away till this thing is over?

    Parent
    Utter crap. (5.00 / 3) (#199)
    by pie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:48:53 PM EST
    Thres not one thing that Ferraro said that was meant to be mean and negative.

    Just stop it.

    Parent

    To Say (none / 0) (#202)
    by flashman on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:54:22 PM EST
    Obama would not be where he is if he wasn't black is stupid, arrogant and harmful.  I don't know exactly when it was she lost her mind, but this isn't any way to behave in a campaign.

    Parent
    There is nothing she could say (5.00 / 3) (#201)
    by pie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:54:17 PM EST
    and no way she could say it that wouldn't get his supporters' panties in a wad.

    No one is allowed to say anything publicly about the guy that even barely sounds like a criticism.

    Just like that moron we have in the White House now. It is beyond pathetic.

    Parent

    Too funny. (none / 0) (#198)
    by pie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:46:49 PM EST
    Why not? (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:53:12 PM EST
    It was a very truthful piece.  The fact is the campaign has been awful.  Don't believe the Obama campaign had anything to do with the tone and tactics of the campaign?  Here's an article on Axelrod where he's used the same tactics as in this campaign.  It addresses this...

    If you're white you can't open your mouth without being accused of being racist. They see Obama's playing the race card throughout the campaign and no one calling him for it as frightening.

    I wonder if people may feel they have been played once they understand doing this is Axelrod's job and how he makes his living.

    Parent

    Gaza (none / 0) (#16)
    by CST on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:10 PM EST

    One more reason to normalize relations.

    Oops I can't link (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by CST on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:30:38 PM EST
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7427983.stm

    sorry I don't know a better way to do this...  I am incompetent at linking

    Parent

    That's just sad.... (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by kdog on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:41:31 PM EST
    Your hometown turned into a prison...now that's offensive!

    Too bad all the stooges are so deep in the pocket of AIPAC...

    Parent

    Yup (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by CST on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:19:50 PM EST
    Allowing these students to travel would only help diplomacy in the long run.  This reminds me of an international camp for leaders my boyfriend went to back in Highschool.  They had students from all over the world and made them live together.  The Israeli embassy threatened to keep their students home if the Israeli students were forced to live with Palestinian students.  The camp told them to go f*ck themselves and eventually the embassy gave in.  Somehow keeping people from talking is supposed to help relations...

    Too bad we can't talk about this without making it a Hillary vs. Obama slugfest though.  Which is especially ironic since they are both wrong.

    Parent

    Links (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:19 PM EST
    How to link (none / 0) (#59)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:39:32 PM EST
    I was obnoxious today so I figure I had better do something to make up for it....link

    Parent
    Here's a trick I learned the other day on here (none / 0) (#109)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:55:47 PM EST
    Take the url...put a bracket before and after the url
    type in keyword between bracket and http://, highlight the keyword
    hit preview and then post...

    Parent
    Obama and Gaza (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:11 PM EST
    Last week, when Barack Obama became the first major candidate to break the silence on the situation in Gaza, he didn't criticize Israel, whose blockade of a civilian population has been roundly condemned by human rights organizations, nor did he call for restraint from the United States' top ally in the Mideast. Instead, he fired off a letter to U.N. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad with a resounding message--one that could have been mistaken for words straight from the American Israel Public Affairs Committee's (AIPAC) website. "The Security Council should clearly and unequivocally condemn the rocket attacks against Israel....

    Look, your candidate what he thinks about Gaza

    Parent

    That's unfortunate (4.00 / 0) (#71)
    by CST on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:43:54 PM EST
    I wonder what the other candidates have to say.  

    The article was a bit more forgiving than you are though.  Nevertheless, I would prefer if he extended his foreign policy approach and language to palestine.  It's one of my favorite things about his campaign, despite the fact that he has been roundly criticized for it.  I understand he is in a tough spot with regards to Israel, but I do wish he was more coorageous in that regard.

    Parent

    What I believe (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:46:39 PM EST
    Obama will be worse, cause he will always have to prove how pro-Israel he is.  Hillary does not have to do that, so it will be easier for her to push forward.  Obama is playing catchup and frankly he will be worse for the Palestinians.  

    Parent
    CST (none / 0) (#73)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:44:21 PM EST
    I guess no comment on Obama's position, Gaza is not an issue to him.  It's "their fault".  

    Parent
    No Comment On Hillary's Position (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by squeaky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:49:19 PM EST
    From you.... Both are AIPAC panderers to a fault. But if Obama stepped up to the plate and roundly condemned the Israeli action, he would be out of the race in no time flat.

    I am sure that you would not switch your allegiance to Obama over this issue, if he did the right thing, would you?

    Thought so.

    Parent

    Difference (5.00 / 0) (#106)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:54:52 PM EST
    is and will be Obama is over his head.  He is not qualified.  He is dangerous as President.  Heh, I know American politics.  I am no fool, but I think Hillary would be much better in the Middle East.  

    Parent
    Hope? (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by squeaky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:06:30 PM EST
    Because she has not said anything that would distance herself from Israeli right wingers. Nor has Obama.

    At least Obama has had some friends on the Palestinian side of the argument. But of course that has been registered as a  negative here at TL.

    Parent

    huh? (none / 0) (#87)
    by CST on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:49:42 PM EST
    I said it was unfortunate.  I am not trying to blame anyone else.  I agree with you he may be worse on Palestine than Clinton because he has to.  I also think he will be better everywhere else.

    I am not letting him off the hook, I disagree with him on this issue and wish he was more coorageous.  I would honestly like to know what the other candidates think.

    Parent

    I remember that (none / 0) (#137)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:06:33 PM EST
    It was a really hardcore pander.

    Obama alternates wildly between courage and a mindblowing degree of caution when it comes to foreign policy.  It's the sort of thing that always gets Democrats into trouble.  I hope he doesn't end up like John Kerry, constantly walking back one foreign policy pronouncement after another.  (Remember the "global test"?)

    What was interesting about this letter from Obama, at the time, was that it's obviously a very bold statement and yet it was sent with very little fanfare.  It only became public knowledge when the left-wing press in Israel found out about it and started making noise.  Honestly, it feels like Obama was trying to make a big-time pander to the pro-Israel faction without the folks on the left finding out about it.  One blogger had this to say:

    Obama should be careful with this crawling. What does he gain among ordinary voters who must surely be getting sick of Israel by now. If he starts acting like Hilary Clinton, or even Bush, his core support will surely drift away. This happens to Democrats all the time lately. They try to out-right the right and the right still wins. Of course the right wins when the Democrats put it in a win-win situation. But what if the crawling works and the zionist vote or funding or both is decisive and he wins? If he wins on a right wing platform he will have to stand by that platform, indeed he may want to. My own view is that, by so obviously grovelling to the establishment on the question of Palestine, he can only harm his candidacy.


    Parent
    I Remember lambert Making A Similar (none / 0) (#179)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:26:25 PM EST
    statement months ago. To paraphrase lambert (correctewire) : "If Obama wins a mandate on right wing talking points, he has a mandate for right wing agenda."

    Parent
    Weddings + Judges (none / 0) (#19)
    by boredmpa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:55 PM EST
    I received a Wedding Invitation in the mail yesterday, the print quality of the address had the look of a mass-mailing.  I was immediately suspicious, but figured one of my MPA peers might have decided to tie the knot.

    So I open it up, and there's a card with a bouquet of flowers and the words "marriage equality" beside it.  Sigh.  And then the inside was, surprise surprise, as list of accomplishments on the Domestic Partnership Act and a Quote from the opinion enabling gay marriage in CA.

    It was, of course, a political mailer for Carol Migden, who authored the Domestic Partnership Act.

    I can't imagine someone creating a more annoying political mailer.  I get a friggin wedding invitation, think for a second maybe a friend from school or someone in the queer community is getting married, and it's a political mailer.

    w t f?

    oh and (none / 0) (#27)
    by boredmpa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:32:04 PM EST
    it made me wonder if that's the first time someone has quoted a legal opinion in a run for senate?

    the judge had cited the DPA...probably in passing.

    Parent

    I didn't get to say this from the other thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by thereyougo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:44:52 PM EST
    about the RBC, weekend that will apparent sides with Obama, and that is, I hope he doesn't pull to seat the delegations from MI/FL AFTER he gets the nom to appear magnanimous and the good guy.

    You can be sure he will (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by ruffian on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:48:53 PM EST
    That has always been the plan.

    Parent
    Chuck Todd, the (none / 0) (#150)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:12:20 PM EST
    only one I can listen too on the Obama channel, just said some stuff worth mentioning.  He says FL will count, not MI.  He thinks Hillary will not go to the convention.  He believes a lot of SDs will come out before the Tuesday vote so that the Obama campaign can say they have reached the magic number by winning MT and SD.  Obama does not want to win on SDs after MT and SD, he wants MT and SD to put him over the top.  I guess this would mean lots of SDs coming out after Saturdays big meeting. He also said Pelosi is the key and she controls more SDs than any other individual within the party, including Gore.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:17:53 PM EST
    Winning MT and SD is kinda important if that's the plan.  I think he's supposed to win MT, not so sure about SD.

    This thing where you lose by 40 points but go around bragging about passing a milestone, like they did the last time, that's not so good for PR.  It's like losing the ballgame 9-0 and then breaking out the champagne because you clinched the division anyway.

    Parent

    That same thing (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by RalphB on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:19:23 PM EST
    has been supposed to happen since the OH/TX primaries.  Including the part about Pelosi's group.  Wonder if it's truer in this incarnation?


    Parent
    he did say that as well (none / 0) (#173)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:22:17 PM EST
    but he seems to think this time it might be for real.  So, I am praying for a win in SD to at least put a bump in the road.  I suppose even if he loses he could reach the magic number if enough SDs come out.

    Parent
    Wow. (none / 0) (#156)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:15:43 PM EST
    he also said (none / 0) (#162)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:17:47 PM EST
    Hillary's last chance is a 20 point landslide in PR.

    Parent
    Who does she think she is? (none / 0) (#171)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:21:24 PM EST
    The unmitigated gall.  

    Parent
    It isn't about disagreement, it is about tone (none / 0) (#153)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:13:22 PM EST


    good luck with that argument (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by coigue on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:14:52 PM EST
    I still dispute the appropriateness of your claim

    Parent
    That's great (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by CST on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:24:47 PM EST
    Aren't you the same poster who took me to task over disliking the language in a previous post of yours?  Yea, that was about the tone too.

    Parent
    Don't forget his sarcasm....and while not (1.00 / 1) (#192)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:38:18 PM EST
    exactly sure what your problem is, believe me what you say will not affect my posting here.

    Parent
    OT (none / 0) (#159)
    by Esme on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:16:47 PM EST
    Does anyone here watch The Tudors? Im finally watching last week's episode, and I have to say, I dunno if I can finish it. Very gruesome.

    Colorado (none / 0) (#161)
    by cmugirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:17:04 PM EST
    I mentioned this in the other thread regarding the anti-choice bill that is being put on the Colorado ballot, but it was this morning and the thread was last night's.

    Jeralyn's premise was that this measure might bring out conservative voters and other commenters disagreed.  My question was this:

    "Doesn't Colorado also have an anti-affirmative action measure on the ballot this fall?"

    Does anyone think with this one-two punch on the ballot that Colorado will turn purple/blue this year?

    I will go more global (none / 0) (#165)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:19:12 PM EST
    I think Obama could really, really boost his chances of winning in November if he were to talk about reforming affirmative action.  It could be a Nixon goes to China sort of thing.

    Parent
    I would find that ironic. (none / 0) (#175)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:23:17 PM EST
    Heh (none / 0) (#189)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:35:19 PM EST
    I see what you mean.  But some Democrat is going to have to do it sooner or later.

    Parent
    McClellan says that he will (none / 0) (#172)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:22:01 PM EST
    be happy to testify. Two lines of thought. He will testify that mistakes were made or that people outright lied. Either way, should make for some good testimony. Is Kenneth Starr busy?

    That's just uh (none / 0) (#205)
    by jondee on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:18:06 PM EST
    a bit of a uh set up question isnt it? Is Bush's handpicked General available for private meetings with Democratic frontrunners? And when did Obama ever meet with uh Ahmadinejad?

    But score one (Hell make it ten), for McCain anyway,
    after all, he isnt Obama.

    Vincent Bugliosi (none / 0) (#206)
    by jondee on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:20:37 PM EST
    Now, there's a man after my own heart. Why the Hell isnt he running?

    USA Today spun the father pfleger story (none / 0) (#207)
    by kenosharick on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:28:04 PM EST
    like crazy, reporting the good father as "someone who endorsed Obama." Never mentioned that he was the campaign's spiritual advisor. That is a little more involvement thn they implied. The MSM is in high gear to hush this one up.