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Obama Agrees With Policy, But Decries Clinton Language On Iran Attack On Israel

On Meet The Press, while Barack Obama acknowledged that were he President he too would order an attack on Iran should it launch a nuclear attack on Israel, he does not like Hillary Clinton's tough language stating the same view.

Similarly, while Barack Obama does not reject Hillary Clinton's "umbrella of deterrence" proposal, he does not think it is smart to debate the proposal in a campaign for the Presidency. I kid you not. Obama said the Presidential campaign is the wrong place to discuss a serious foreign policy issue.

I point these statements out not to criticize Obama himself. Indeed, his statements are a political calculation that may work for him. My point here is that the ACTUAL POLICIES Clinton espoused were either embraced or not rejected by Obama. The substance of these issues is not disagreed with by Obama. But he is a politician and gives a political answer. They are all pols folks, and act accordingly.

Watching CNN's Late Edition, I see that Bill Richardson does not like the language either. I do not think this is smart politics from the Obama camp.

By Big Tent Democrat

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  • Display: Sort:
    A political move by NBC and Obama (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Saul on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:56:34 AM EST
    Talk about in the tank

    As I watch Meet the Press today and This Week, it is hard not to believe that both NBC and ABC WANT Obama to win so bad.   Tim Russert has Obama for the only reason so he can get more positive exposure since he had a bad week and so his man can explain himself once again for  his bad week so he can do well on Tuesday.

    On ABC Stenpanpoulus is doing everything to make Hilary look bad by constantly interrupting her before a group of people not letting her answer the question the audience gave him.  You can tell he hates her and wants her to mess up so she looks bad and Obama looks good.  His tone is like he is disgusted with Hilary.


    I agree Russert... (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by jccamp on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:07:18 AM EST
    was throwing softballs. Geez, it was like a paid hour-long advertisement.

    Disappointing.

    Parent

    I didn't expect anything other... (none / 0) (#16)
    by Shainzona on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:23:38 AM EST
    than soft balls.

    Hey, was MTP on at the same time as George's Town Hall with Hillary?  (Sorry, I don't watch TV!)

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#71)
    by DFLer on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:19:58 PM EST
    yes

    MTO repeats on MSNBC, I think....don't know about the ABC deal.

    Parent

    Typical (none / 0) (#18)
    by pie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:25:59 AM EST
    pumpkinhead interview.

    Can't ask hard questions.  People might not like him any more.

    Parent

    I'm watching now (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by stillife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:11:29 AM EST
    Stephanopoulos just asked her why 60% of voters think she's dishonest.

    Parent
    Hillary called out Steph (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:02:01 AM EST
    apparently, on his history as a member of the Clinton administration.   I didn't see the ABC show itself, but Kurtz on CNN showed a clip of her roping George in on the question of NAFTA-- how she and George together argued against it inside the admin.  She totally blew his cover as an "objective journalist" while reminding him that he knows better than to pretend her opposition to it is new-found.  Interesting bit of psychodynamics there.  I bet he's furious.

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Saul on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:32:38 AM EST
    I saw that I thought that was pretty cool.  Maybe he will learn to leave her alone for fear of revealing more on what they agreed on during the Clinton adminstration.

    Parent
    I have not watched it (none / 0) (#7)
    by DJ on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:09:32 AM EST
    Should I not?  Is it that bad?

    Parent
    Well, it shows off (none / 0) (#14)
    by jccamp on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:18:39 AM EST
    Obama's strong points. He's articulate and appears thoughtful and charming. However, Russert allows some whoppers to go by unchallenged: i.e. discussing HRC's comments about Iran & defending Isreal, Obama says something to the effect "I won't allow Iran to go nuclear." Huh? Good trick, but the details were a little lacking. Russert just nodded and moved on.

    The interview appeared very friendly and non-challenging, at least to me.  

    Parent

    Exactly How Is Obama Going To Stop (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:31:53 AM EST
    Iran from going nuclear if negotiations fail to do the trick? Talk about buying a pig in a polk. Is there going to be any time that we really know what Obama will do other than create "sound bites?"

    Hillary's umbrella of deterrence is in many ways a less aggressive stance. This policy is saying that even if Iran got nuclear capability there are other ways to prevent them from using them rather than using first strike bombing to prevent Iran from acquiring them.

    Parent

    I thought Russert was pretty tame (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:31:21 AM EST
    But I did not find Obama very effective either.

    Parent
    I didn't mean to suggest (none / 0) (#35)
    by jccamp on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:22:56 AM EST
    Obama was effective on MTP. I thought he was allowed to control the substance and pace of his replies. It demonstrated his strong points - his persona. I thought it also demonstrated his glaring weakness - his substance. For a guy who's all about change, he sounded suspiciously like a, well...a politician with glib-but-insubstantial content.

    Parent
    "I won't allow"?? (none / 0) (#25)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:35:02 AM EST
    What office does he think he is running for?? Sounds like he thinks he is going to be President of Iran, not the US. And FYI, Obama, Iran is already nuclear. They are enriching and building power plants. They just don't have a bomb yet. Someone should get Obama a briefing on Iran soon.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Steve M on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:00:26 AM EST
    Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who perceives the naked opportunism.  Obama's criticism of Clinton's Kyl-Lieberman vote was another classic of the genre.

    Of course Obama agrees with Hillary, he just doesn't want to be forced into a "me too."

    was watching Hillary (none / 0) (#72)
    by DFLer on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:24:00 PM EST
    What did O say about the K-L vote?.....did Russert ask him why he, then, did not vote against it himself?


    Parent
    BTD, I just don't get your support for Obama. (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Angel on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:00:42 AM EST
    Will you explain or just keep us guessing as to why you continue to support him over Hillary?

    I understand his (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by waldenpond on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:34:50 AM EST
    support to be because he feels they are the same on policy, but feels that Obama is more electable because he's a media darling.

    I agree, only because most people do not do research in to who to vote for.  They get quite a bit of their info from tv and radio.  

    If it isn't covered, it never happened.  If media says it, it must be true.

    It's kind of fun (frustrating) to twist yourself and look at it as if the media will do anything to elect Obama.  Sad thing is, the weakest argument you can find for an interpretation is usually what happens.  Clinton is evasive, Obama is presidential (like refusing to discuss FP)

    Parent

    BTD has repeatedly stated (none / 0) (#23)
    by sleepingdogs on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:32:34 AM EST
    he is a tepid supporter based on Obama's media darling status.  

    I just don't understand the "I let the press decide how I vote" attitude though.  Why vote?  How is media choice a government by the people?  I'm not being flip. This issue makes me want to give up..... I am mystified as to why smart people are not fighting back against media choice versus democracy.

    Parent

    I Can't Wait To See How Obama's Supporters (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:03:31 AM EST
    will tie themselves up in knots to rationalize Obama's comment. If a campaign for the highest office in the land is not the place to discuss serious foreign policy issues, when do we find out what he would do as president?  Another faith based initiative.  

    BTW, if he thinks tough talk is bad, then I guess him saying he would bomb Pakistan was the equivalent of sending them a lacy Valentine.

    Good point (as usual) (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Kathy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:11:52 AM EST
    tie themselves up in knots to rationalize Obama's comment

    Would that we had an intrepid SEAL to go into Koslandia and fish out past denigrations of Clinton's policy, compare them to Obama's statements, and let the blood fly.

    Parent

    Nuance (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by JohnS on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:57:25 AM EST
    Before I write anything further about what Obama said regarding Clinton's proposed ME "umbrella of deterrance," let me quote Col Pat Lang regarding Charles Krauthammer's proposal to put "in writing" something very similar:

    It may have merit if the virtual protectorate over Israel that he advocates would balance responsibility and authority.  In other words would a specific and effectively irrevocable American assumption of responsibility for Israel's survival in a nuclear world be matched with the ability to control actions which might lead to an Israeli/Iranian confrontation?  Any keen observer of the United States should have known that the US nuclear umbrella has been extended to cover Israel for a long, long time on a de facto basis.  That was adequate because ambiguity is the soul of deterrence.

    If Lang is correct, this is our policy already, albeit unspoken. If Lang is again correct, that there are at least two good reasons for it being so. First, because  "ambiguity is the soul of deterrance." Secondly, by so formally spelling it out,  the US would now have to insist on the right  "to control actions which might lead to an Israeli/Iranian confrontation," and I'm not sure Israel would be willing to the US grant that kind of authority over it.

    Clinton probably misspoke by using the phrase, "totally obliterate."  She used a much better response, "strong military reprisal" on This Week. In diplo-speak, it ain't just what you say, it's how you say it. Speaking so clearly about this policy in an election situation is helpful. In terms of foreign relations, maybe it wasn't so helpful.

    Obama, as I saw it, only called her on her use of overly belligerent language ("totally obliterate") with regards to what would happen to Iran if it launched a future nuclear first strike on Israel. He has a point, I now believe. He appeared on board with our current unspoken policy as Lang described.

    He was very muddy on extending the umbrella to other ME countries per Clinton's proposal. This is a crucial issue, and the first solid idea I have seen from anyone with regards to stopping regional nuclear proliferation once Iran gets the bomb. He should have found some way to generally discuss the proposal using diplo-speak without having to get into specifics. Instead he used hypotheticals and specifics as a dodge to not address the issue at all. He disappoints again.

    His talk about keeping Iran from getting the bomb was ludicrous. They will get it. Thanks to Geo Bush, they now have little other choice.


    Parent

    The language needs to be strong and clear (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Manuel on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:43:37 AM EST
    How is obliterate different from the "mutually assured destruction" of the cold war.  The stark language reminds all actors, icnluding ourselves, of the hugh stakes.  We don't want to get there but we need to convince the other side that we will if we have to.  Softer language just sends the signal that won't have the resolve to follow through.

    Parent
    Since when is ambiguity the soul of (none / 0) (#54)
    by MarkL on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:05:34 PM EST
    deterrence? That makes no sense at all to me.
    SOMETHING must be explicit, for deterrence to work.

    Parent
    What would you guys tell McCain if... (none / 0) (#64)
    by diogenes on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:53:31 PM EST
    What would you guys say about McCain if HE had been the one to say that he would "obliterate" Iran???

    Parent
    McCain is promising to bomb Iran (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by MarkL on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    as a continuation of Bush's preemptive war policy.
    Hillary's policy is diametrically opposed.
    That is the significant difference. In terms of responding to a nuclear attack on Iran, all three candidates hold the same position.

    Parent
    It Would Depend On The Question Asked (none / 0) (#66)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:15:30 PM EST
    If McCain is asked, like Hillary, what would you do if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons, then I would expect him to respond is the same way.

    If Clinton, McCain or Obama are asked what will you do if Iran is close to obtaining nuclear weapon capability and they responded that way, I would object strenuously.

    Also, how do you think Obama would answer the question of what the U.S. would do if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons?

    Parent

    Obama the hypocrite? (5.00 / 7) (#5)
    by Josey on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:03:58 AM EST
    >>>>he does not think it is smart to debate the proposal in a campaign for the Presidency

    During a debate, he didn't mind promising to invade Pakistan to "get Osama" with or without Musharref's permission.


    Yes, but... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Dadler on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:01:47 PM EST
    Osama bin Laden and AQ, which are actually in Pakistan, at least DID attack us.  Iran has not and never will.  In fact, Iran has never invaded ANY of her neighbors.  All the talk about Iran is empty chest-thumping by WHOMEVER does it.  And it is an absurd distraction.  One that threatens to bankrupt us even more.  We are destroying ourselves in Iraq.  Literally.  And we are fiddling while we burn.  There is no health care, there is no social security, there is no tax break, there is no employment surge, there is NOTHING or America unless the war in Iraq ends and now.  Every other issue depends on ending that war.  Without an end, there is no money for anything other than the continued destruction of Iraq and, thus, ourselves.  In other words, Osama bin Laden did exactly what he wanted, and we continue to do his work for him.

    Parent
    that's why I support Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Josey on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:29:00 PM EST
    She already has a handle on health care, will not allow it to fail again, and knows it won't be feasible until we withdraw from Iraq.
    otoh - Obama and Kerry have dissed her UHC plan and used Insurance industry talking points claiming it will never make it through Congress. Neither show much urgency for affordable health care.


    Parent
    Another example: Obama, (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by oculus on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:21:23 PM EST
    during the Dem. primary race, has direct, publicized contact with parties involved in Presidential election dispute in Kenya.

    Parent
    good point! (none / 0) (#69)
    by Josey on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:32:11 PM EST
    Repubs criticized Kerry in 2004 for saying "world leaders" were eager for a new U.S. president, etc. They implied Kerry had met with them secretly, etc.

    Parent
    Am I the Only One (none / 0) (#44)
    by The Maven on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:09:48 AM EST
    who got a flashback to the era of Cheney and Rumsfeld admonishing critics of the Bush Administration that we should watch what we say?  Their point, as I recall, was that our calls for public discussion and debate over the course they were leading us down would give aid and comfort to the enemy by showing that we were not 100% in lockstep with the Dear Leader.

    Now Obama is implying that the issue is too sensitive to discuss during a campaign?  That doesn't give me a lot of confidence in his "new era" of transparency regarding foreign policy (nor, for that matter, have his past statements about bringing Republicans into his administration for key posts at State and Defense).

    Parent

    This is getting tiring... (5.00 / 9) (#11)
    by Shainzona on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:14:07 AM EST
    HRC has been beat up for "pandering" on the gas tax holiday and this guy will get passes on this BS.

    And once again, he supports HRC's policies after a insighting hatred over her suggestions for the past few weeks.

    Has this guy ever had an original thought?

    He is truly a Political Lurker...always in the picture, but never out front, never leading the charge.  Even his "famous" speech resulted in not a single attempt by BO to end the war once he got into the Senate.  But then, he was so busy on day one running for his next promotion he forgot that little issue, didn't he?

    I remember reading about him running into committee members on their way to a press conference about something they had just accomplished.  He said, "What's up" and they told him and he said, "Can I come along"?  They said sure - they wanted people on the podium for pictures and then he had the audacity (whoops!) to take the mic and speak as if he had been personally involved in the accomplishment.  Staffers were pissed as hell at what he did.

    He lurked in CT in 2006 (never really coming out and supporting Ned Lamont).  He lurks on pro-choice (using weasel words and voting present).  He lurks on race (demanding a dialog and now saying we should all move on - pun intended!).  Condemning the Gas Tax Holiday proposal when he supported other such proposals three times.  

    Where in the world does he really stand on things?  I don't know.  And I'm not willing to take a chance.

    I saw Susan Rice - Obama's FP (5.00 / 8) (#13)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:17:01 AM EST
    surrogate on CNN make the very same comment that the deterrence issue is too complex for a debate when she was debating Jamie Rubin about Clinton's comments in the debate and post Olbermann interview.

    I found that quite troubling.  If not in a debate, then when?

    Link

    no one has done more (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by english teacher on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:39:38 AM EST
    to criticize their opponent for holding the uhh... for having views that i agree with, than barack obama.

    Obama needed a softball day (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by waldenpond on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:39:49 AM EST
    Rasmussen poll out for NC.  I don't think Obama could survive a tough interview right now. I'd be interested to see what kind of viewership this morning's show gets and if he picked up their ratings.  Michelle on LK did not budge ratings at all.

    I don't mind tough interviews (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by wasabi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:59:14 AM EST
    I don't mind that interviews get tough.  The Presidency isn't for wimps.  Either candidate will have to spend much time defending themselves and their policies if they get elected.  The harder, the better.  Let's see what both candidates can do.

    Hmmm (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:00:12 AM EST
    I kid you not. Obama said the Presidential campaign is the wrong place to discuss a serious foreign policy issue.

    I'll bet Obama also has a "secret plan for getting us out of Vietnam" (we'll I guess it's Iraq, these days).

    Hillary did great on ABC (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by bslev22 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:06:55 AM EST
    I watched just about the entire townhall and she handled George just fine, really.  I don't want to sway off-topic, but she looked strong and, as always, competent, engaged, and fundamentally caring.

    As a cheap aside, it was very effective for her to stand up and make George do the same.  A subtle, but thoughtful move.  And I loved it! lol  


    The phonies on CNN took Hillary's comment (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by gish720 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:10:27 AM EST
    completely out of context.  Just now on CNN they quoted Clinton from her interview on ABC today, she said--Remember I was asked a direct question in a debate, what should the US do if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons--that's why she said what she said. Dang CNN stacks the deck against Clinton by leaving that part out. It tempers her reply and makes her sound appropriate in her response.  By leaving that part out it plays into her as being a wild eyed war monger.

    CNN lets Obama off with a Politicians in Wash byte (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Ellie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:54:58 AM EST
    ... but holds a Clinton supporter to a grown ups' bar of Name One Economist That Supports Your Position, plus Outline That Position.

    Reich is on WORM duty, on the Feelgood Obama Soundbyte decrying "the politicians in Washington" [except ME ME MEME]. (Fun Cartoon Fact: that's straight out of the C. Montgomery Burns campaign playbook. Really, I don't lie.)

    If you're wondering where the balancing HRC feelgood soundbyte was, sorry, Sunday Morning Cartoon fans, she doesn't get to have one because We Hate Her.

    Parent

    B-b-but she is! (none / 0) (#34)
    by Fabian on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:17:36 AM EST
    At least, if I got all my information from the Great Orange, that's exactly what I'd think.  The painful part of the Great Orange Echo Chamber(GOEC? GOrEC?) is that they have to keep on pointing out how awful McCain is or people might think that McCain is the lesser of two evils.

    Parent
    Foreign policy (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Addison on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:43:34 AM EST
    This isn't going to be one of the ones where I stick around and have a circular debate with people.

    I just want to note that with international diplomacy words, spoken and unspoken, really matter. Hyping up a situation with aggressive language, backing some country into a corner with ultimatums, humiliating a nation with insults, all of that will have real world consequences. I don't understand the amount of pride some country's have about words used, but it's real, in many cases more real than actual policy. And so even though a basic policy can be understood 100% by the targeted side, and everyone else, to voice it in the open is often a stupidly aggressive thing to do.

    In other words, in international diplomacy it's actually going to be pretty common for two pols to share a similar policy while disagreeing on how to broadcast it.

    So you condemned Obama's promise to attack (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:52:38 AM EST
    Al Qaida in Pakistan? You see, I defended it strongly.

    I believe strong talk can avoid the need for actual conflict.

    Deterrence theory is based on it.

    Parent

    Clarification. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Addison on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:05:14 AM EST
    Well, I wasn't in country when he said that, so I may not be fully aware of the exact int'l situation with Pakistan at that time, my access to media being what it was. It's (imo) a good policy, and I think the two situations are slightly different -- we wouldn't be attacking Pakistan and Bush has already done what Obama was talking about -- but yes, it would be better in my mind to not make Pakistan form an open int'l objection to it before we act. Because then they can come out of it pretending like they said it was okay in that one instance, pretending like THEY asked for it, or some other method to save face. Now it will be messy if we ever try to do it.

    I guess I generally disagree with you about the basis of deterrence "theory" and it's more psychological aspects. I think you let the other government know, but you keep it quiet so that if something happens each government can form their own casuistic -- dishonest, artificial, but acceptable to their people -- narrative to save face. That doesn't sound so good, but otherwise they have to form a narrative of bellicosity, creating an expensive protracted conflict caused by a political position suddenly made inflexible by an international announcement of deterrence.

    Now, on this issue I might agree with Clinton. I might not. I haven't studied Iran's reactions to this sort of thing enough. So in that you didn't quite get what I was saying, and how non-partisan it was. I was merely saying that with int'l diplomacy/policy it's going to be pretty common that the policy isn't what is differed on, but the way to broadcast it is.

    Parent

    What you get with Experience (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Edgar08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:36:50 AM EST
    And things like endorsements.

    I wanted to add here, you're talking about soft power.  The psychological consequences of hard diplomacy/warfare, in this case, how saying "totally obliterate" can allow someone on the other side to point to America and yell "See!!! See!!! They want to totally obliterate us!!!!"

    Which gives them excuses to do things like build more weapons. Etc.

    And it's a tightrope world leaders have to learn how to walk.  Suffice to say, JFK and Reagan could an did speak in very harsh terms about what would happen to the Soviet Union during the Cold War.  So ask yourself.  Did that supercede our ability to wage soft power tactics as well in the market place.  Specifically, did Soviet Union moderates suddenly wake up one day and start telling themselves "I don't want rock an roll and levis jeans anymore, those people want to totally obliterate us."?    No.  They kept putting pressure on their government (as much as they could without being rounded up and sent to jail) knowing that being shut out of the market place was to be also shut out of cultural movements taking part in the rest of the world.

    In the end, even though western politics had spoken in the most harshest terms imaginable about what would happen to them if they commenced first strike, much of the Soviet Union yearned and embraced western culture.

    Lastly, I brought up endorsements because if you don't trust me, BTD, Obama or Clinton on any of this, the one person who I think we should trust is Gen. Wesley Clark.  I don't know anyone in the country who knows more about soft power than he does.

    Parent

    Every situation is different... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Addison on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:51:56 AM EST
    ...and so discussing these sorts of decisions historically might not be the most useful thing in the world. Which is fine since I'm not really discussing that. I am talking about how two politician's policies on any particular foreign policy issue can be the same, but their "policy" decision on how to broadcast it can be different.

    Finally, and I want to make it clear this doesn't have anything to do with my original point, but I don't understand why you brought up Wes Clark on this particular issue. Wes Clark:

    All Americans want to stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons and interfering on the ground inside Iraq. Yet President Bush's saber rattling gives the US little additional leverage to engage and dissuade Iran, and, more than likely, simply accelerates a dangerous slide into war. The United States can do better than this.

    Whatever the pace of Iran's nuclear efforts, in the give and take of the Administration's rhetoric and accusations, we are approaching the last moments to head off looming conflict.

    Cannot the world's most powerful nation deign speak to the resentful and scheming regional power that is Iran? Can we not speak of the interests of others, work to establish a sustained dialogue, and seek to benefit the people of Iran and the region? Could not such a dialogue, properly conducted, begin a process that could, over time, help realign hardened attitudes and polarizing views within the region? And isn't it easier to undertake such a dialogue now, before more die, and more martyrs are created to feed extremist passions?

    Granted, I think that was a while ago (last year). But still. I don't feel like it goes against what I'm saying is the right course of action in this situation. Regardless of the policy chosen saber-rattling might not be helpful.

    Parent

    Yes yes (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edgar08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:14:28 PM EST
    So why would the guy who wrote that also endorse Clinton?

    Parent
    How else do you reassure (none / 0) (#59)
    by JohnS on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:26:42 PM EST
    a very (rightly or wrongly) paranoid Israel with regards to a nuclear weaponized Iran? An Israel that posses an upwards of 200 nuclear tipped missiles on land and submarines.

    I agree that Clinton should have tamped down the belligerance. But how else to reassure a nervous Israel about Iran? It seems to me her clumsy remark could have just as easily been phrased to reassure Iran, in a weird kind of way. As in, "now there's no reason for a nuclear Israel to go after you first , because now there's no chance in hell that you would ever go nuke first on Israel."

    Again, it's the lousy world we live in for now. I can't think of a better way to play this crummy hand.

    Parent

    I should have phrased that (none / 0) (#60)
    by JohnS on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:29:06 PM EST
    How else to reassure a nervous Israel, policy-wise, about a potentially nuclear Iran?


    Parent
    The Point Of Hillary's Umbrella Of Deterrence (none / 0) (#67)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:26:42 PM EST
    is just not to reassure Israel but also to try and prevent other countries in the region from getting into the race to obtain nuclear weapons.

    I also wish Hillary would have tamped down the rhetoric.

    Parent

    Ridiculous comparison (none / 0) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:34:46 PM EST
    clinton is deterring nuclear attack, Clark is deterring bush's prempetive war in Iran.

    You are making no sense here.

    Parent

    Eh... (none / 0) (#63)
    by Addison on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:43:48 PM EST
    It's a great comparison. My point is about the usefulness of broadcasting a deterrence policy loudly through the media versus quietly through diplomatic channel as a reasonable (not two-faced) difference between candidates. Saber-rattling (or not) as the way to broadcast our opinions about Iran and it's nuclear program and their use of it is the topic of Clark's statement here. Especially:

    Could not such a dialogue, properly conducted, begin a process that could, over time, help realign hardened attitudes and polarizing views within the region? And isn't it easier to undertake such a dialogue now, before more die, and more martyrs are created to feed extremist passions?

    He was speaking about a different instance of Iran foreign policy, but it's hard to see those words about realigning attitudes and polarizing views applied favorably to Clinton's statement about obliterating Iran, no matter how aware every government is to the likelihood of that happening.

    Parent

    I agree with Clinton's proposal (none / 0) (#45)
    by JohnS on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:17:57 AM EST
    but I agree it is a mistake to spell it out so clearly, foreign relations-wise.

    I now think it was foolish when Obama did almost the same thing with regards to Pakistan.

    Seven years of George Bush has demonstrated  how pointless and counterproductive "tough talk" is to me, too. As frustrating as deciphering diplo-speak is, it is essential to use, even in an election, with regards to issues as sensitive as this. This is probably not Clinton's best first opening move with regards to  starting off on a new diplomatic track with the Iranians post-Bush.

    Parent

    Ugh... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Addison on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:26:09 AM EST
    ...and just one further clarification: I don't agree that we should "obliterate" Iran. That's a horrifying thing, in my mind, that would create a hellstorm of war and chaos in the world. If they nuked Israel we'd already be facing World War III, but there'd be no reason -- politically, strategically, ethically -- to toss our moral high ground into the gutter going into World War III. There are too many innocent people in Iran to kill them all for potential insane acts of the powerful.

    But of course United States policy is probably to do such a thing. It might be a given that I have no real control over. So what I'm talking about not being sure if I agree with Clinton or not is saying we will do such a thing out in the open versus sub rosa. Which is what my point is about.

    Parent

    Moral high ground? (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by JohnS on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:07:31 PM EST
    Do you really think any rational human in the Pentagon or Dept of State actually thinks that Iran would ever launch a first strike against Israel should they ever get  nuclear? It would be an act of suicide, and despite the line the neocons here and in Israel are pushing, the Iranian leadership does not appear mentally unbalanced at all.

    If anyone should be worried, I'd imagine it should be Iran. It is Israel who appears to be paranoid and not acting rationally. But I guess that comes with the territory and the fact that it's so tiny. But I fear that it's Israel's paranoia that's driving all this crazy talk. The US should be in the business of tamping it down, not reinforcing it, but that's politically problematic here for a number of reasons. I'll say this:  HRC's tough talk was for the benefit of the Israel lobby and a largely pro-Israel American electorate.  

    I believe diplomacy with Iran must be pursued first and foremost while convincing nervous Israel that we're not selling them up the river.  Unfortunately that diplomacy has to have muscle behind it. For now, that's the world we're stuck with, until the US and the other big nuclear powers decide to summon the will to reduce/eliminate their nuclear stockpiles.

    Parent

    Hillary is so brisk and clear on Steph. (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by thereyougo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:45:24 AM EST
    MTP hasn't shown out west yet.

    but if Obama is opposed to  telling the American people what he'd do in the Iran sitution, that there tells you he's a bonafide UN-change politician. Glad he got rid of those signs, lest we forget.

    He comes across as weak, still hasn't wowed me with his oratory.

    A presidential campaign (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by kredwyn on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:40:54 AM EST
    is exactly where you should be talking about serious FP.

    Otherwise, how do you know what the candidates are thinking re: US foreign policy?

    So,.. Obama's for it and against it at the (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by MarkL on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:03:30 PM EST
    same time? Young Obama has learned well from Obi Wan Kerry.

    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by facta non verba on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:19:02 PM EST
    a little bit of British comedy might show us how an Obama conversation on nuclear deterrence might be like.

    Yes Minister on the Nuclear Deterrence

    Hmmmm, well I'm a big ole Hillary supporter (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:38:21 PM EST
    but I was not impressed with how well she addressed the umbrella of deterrence.  I knew what she meant, you knew what she meant, but an entire nation that was drug and drugged into this Iraq fiasco needs details about what a future president means when she is discussing how deterrence works.  She did say something about obliterating Iran and though I knew what she was talking about, after you have some idiot like Cheney up there for closing on eight years now the people need more information and understanding about what she meant because they are headshy as heck and have every reason to be so.

    Funny though how Obama can talk about having to bomb Pakistan during an ongoing support and weapons deal with Pakistan and cause a big ole stir but that was okay.......what Hillary said though about dealing with Iran, bad bad bad talking like that during a campaign.  Give me a break Barry!

    Not discussing (4.87 / 8) (#10)
    by pie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:12:00 AM EST
    foreign policy in a presidential campaign must be the "new politics" he's going to bring.

    Someone had better tell John McCain.

    Are we not smart enough (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by DJ on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:21:51 AM EST
    to understand? or is he not smart enough to understand?  

    Parent
    Or worse (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by pie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:24:28 AM EST
    he thinks we're not smart enough to understand.

    Political lurking does that to you, I guess.

    Parent

    Edit: beaten, not beat. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Shainzona on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:15:44 AM EST
    Whoops.

    I had a bet (none / 0) (#19)
    by cmugirl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:28:21 AM EST
    with my Obama-supporting co-worker.  How much time was spent on Wright?  My co-worker figured it would be more than half the show, and I said it would mostly be softballs and Wright would be fewer than 5 minutes.

    Can someone help me out?  I'm watching Hillary instead...

    About 10 minutes (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:30:12 AM EST
    Watching L'il George question Hillary -He does (none / 0) (#28)
    by jawbone on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:40:41 AM EST
    interrupt quite a bit.

    I wouldn't mind the interruptions if they were follow-ups on the main question, but he tends to interrupt with a question essentially unrelated to question being answered.  He doesn't segue very well.

    But he does get paid the big bucks.

    Right now, he did ask a f/up about what would she do if Iran invaded Iraq, and he did pin her down on that.  She said she doesn't believe Iran will invade Iraq.  (They don't need to, of course, as we've been seeing for several years now--my comment.)

    Now, he's bringing up her comment about using all necessary force if Iran attacks Israel, that it undermines Iranians who want to improve relations with the US.  Alas, she's accepting the mistranslation (per Juan Cole) of "wiping Israel off the map."

    George (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by cmugirl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:51:45 AM EST
    He has to look tough since the Obama camp was whining that he was the one doing the interview, thinking he would be easier on her since he worked for BC.

    Parent
    Oh dear I meant to say inappropriate.... (none / 0) (#36)
    by gish720 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:32:54 AM EST


    Obama doesn't agree with Clinton's thuggish policy (none / 0) (#70)
    by AdrianLesher on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:53:20 PM EST
    Obama doen't "agree" with Clinton's policy, unless you eliminate any nuance or particularity. What he says is this:

    Israel is a ally of ours.  It is the most important ally we have in the region, and there's no doubt that we would act forcefully and appropriately on any attack against Iran, nuclear or otherwise.

    This is a far cry from saying you're willing to "obliterate" a nation of 70 million people, many of whom detest their government and have no quarrel with us. This response is proportional and appropriate.

    Obama goes on to say this about Clinton's expressed desire to include Saudi Arabia and Jordan underneath a "nuclear umbrella":

    I, I'm troubled by the idea that, as a throwaway line in the debate, you start expanding the U.S. nuclear umbrella potentially to a whole host of other countries without any clear idea of what these criteria are, who might be involved and so forth.  I think there's no doubt that we need to think about what our strategic posture is with respect to Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other ally--other friends in the region.  But, you know, right now we don't have a formal alliance with many of these other countries.  And if we are to develop that, we should do it prudently, cautiously, in consultation with Congress.....
    Well, that's, I think, part of the debate that should be taking place.  Obviously, we've got national security interests in oil supplies in the region.  And as president, that's something that I would factor in.  But I am not willing, at this point, to suggest that somehow we are going to extend our nuclear umbrella or that we have the same sorts of alliance with Saudi Arabia that we do with NATO countries or that we do with Israel.


    Pumped Up Pandering (none / 0) (#74)
    by squeaky on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:32:28 PM EST
    I understand that President Musharraf has his own challenges. But let me make this clear. There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al Qaeda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will.

    Hillary criticized Obama for that quote. They are both the same, and neither is to be trusted to make peace. Both candidates have swallowed whole BushCo's WOT. Last gasps of a dying superpower?

    Parent

    Awwwww.. (none / 0) (#73)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:54:25 PM EST
    Obama likes academese?  What a revelation.  :)

    Frankly, obliterate is the right word.

    Clinton forgets U.N. Charter rules of warfare (none / 0) (#75)
    by ctrenta on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:05:08 PM EST

    Clinton said as president she would "`totally obliterate" Iran if it attacked Israel with nuclear weapons. Isn't that a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, which bars threats on member nations?

    Doesn't a nation have to be attacked in order to legally respond? Whatever happened to conducting rules of warfare according to U.N. standards?