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Meanwhile In West Virginia . . .

Hillary Clinton will blow out Obama 66-23:

Hillary Clinton leads Barack Obama 57% to 27% among men (43% of likely Democratic primary voters). Among women, Clinton leads 72% to 20%. Clinton leads 70% to 19% among white voters (93% of likely Democratic primary voters). Obama leads 91% to 3% among African American voters (5% of likely Democratic primary voters).

But West Virginia is a state that does not count to the Obama Movement. It has those white working class voters that the Creative Class is trying to purge from the Party:

Cultural Shift: Out with Bubbas, up with Creatives. . . . Obama has all the markers of a creative class background, from his community organizing, to his Unitarianism, to being an academic, to living in Hyde Park to shopping at Whole Foods and drinking PBR. These will be the type of people running the Democratic Party now, and it will be a big cultural shift from the white working class focus of earlier decades. . . . Culturally, the Democratic Party will feel pretty normal to netroots types. It will consistently send out cultural signals designed to appeal primarily to the creative class instead of . . . the white working class.

More...

(Emphasis supplied.) Wow! Obama's Creative Class supporters are really his worst enemies now. Thank Gawd so relatively few people read the blogs.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only.

Comments closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Just a question on Obama's supporters (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by thomphool on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:46:12 AM EST
    I keep hearing some say, "Judge Obama on the candidate, not on the nature and tone of his supporters."  If the underlying logic of the argument for Obama's campaign is that the way to change politics and effect change for good on policy is to create a chorus of unified voices and a movement for change, isn't it completely fair, even necessary to judge Obama's campaign by the tone and tenor of his supporters?

    This is REALLY starting to worry me as we head towards the fall.  Obama, more than most campaigns, is opening himself up to his supporters being used against him.  I'm just picturing the ads right now  juxtaposing Obama talking about "the movement" and the wave of support and contrasting it with the actual words of supporters, and it's frightening.  BTD is right, the relative low reach of most of this stuff is fine for now, but all it takes is one well placed use of this for it to come back and hurt Democrats in the fall.

    not really becuase (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by TruthMatters on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:51:14 AM EST
    how do we define which supporters? just because Bloggers support a candidate should we judge the candidate by them? because Hillary has plenty of Bloggers she wouldn't want a photo op with.

    I mean which supporters should reflect on a candidate? only the paid ones? the ones who volunteer for the campaign?

    should Hillary be judged by her supporters that feel she should be President because Obama is a racist Muslim who will destroy the Country?

    once you say you judge the candidate by their supporters where do you draw the line? because every time I get grouped with Daily Kos, I then group all of you with Hillaryis44.

    Parent

    The logic of Clinton's campaign wasn't a movement (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by thomphool on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:56:49 AM EST
    The logic of Obama's is.  It's not to say that it's one size fits all in tone and tenor, but if the most vociferous supporters take on the tone of Bowers, et al., I'm scared.  

    Parent
    What's Kind of funny (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by talex on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:21:12 AM EST
    about Bowers et al is they are embracing their sacred creative class (talk about elitist!) - throwing the poor White guys off the bus - but embracing the poor Black voters.

    I don't think it is racial because after all
    Bowers is a White creative class guy. What it is all about is who votes for Obama. In this case Blacks are worth more than Whites because of how they vote.

    But in his post Bowers takes it a bit too far by calling the White guys Bubbas who don't shop at Whole Foods.

    Talk about living in a bubble! Talk about elitist!

    Parent

    You hit the nail right on the head (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by OxyCon on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:45:46 AM EST
    For the Bowers, Stollers and D-Day's, they like to eat food from "Whole Fooods", but they themselves have thrown the guy who grew their "Whole Food" out of their really kewl new party.
    And to them the AA vote is just like Steven Colbert's "black friend" Alan...they help assuage their racial guilt.
    If only we had a modern day Shakespeare to riff on this stuff.

    Parent
    Great comment (none / 0) (#225)
    by talex on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:01:59 AM EST
    regrading Colbert's "black friend" Alan.

    I guess one could think of "The White Man's Burden" too.

    But do we hear these White Creative Class Obama huggers saying anything about NOLA or improving inner city schools?

    The truth is that when examining Obama and his spotty record and his overt embrace of Republicans and some of their ideology - people like Bowers who call themselves Progressives have sold themselves out.

    Parent

    my question is whats the standard? (none / 0) (#55)
    by TruthMatters on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:02:30 AM EST
    obviously I doubt anyone here thinks ALL supporters should reflect on their candidate

    so which ones? because obviously whatever standard you place on Obama I will place on Clinton and we both know Hillary has bad ones just like Obama

    so before we play this attack the candidate by their supporters, what standards would YOU want me to use for Hillary?

    Parent

    I'm not going to engage in this (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by thomphool on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:09:40 AM EST
    I'm not going to engage in the tactic of the way of responding of to criticism is turning it around and discussing the faults with Clinton.  The fact is, Clinton was to a large extent judged in the MSM by the tone of some of the most vile of her supporters.  Outside of the LBJ comment (which she was correct about, btw) the entire racism charge stemmed from judging her campaign by what her supporters said.  If this happens to Obama in the fall, we're screwed.  Frankly, I don't care what standard you use.  That's your prerogative and it's going to be the prerogative of the media what standard they use to judge Obama's supporters.  

    I'm trying to be constructive and identify a problem that Democrats have to deal with in the fall.  If we are the one's we've been waiting for, we better be on our best behavior to show people that it was worth the wait.  I'm concerned that the chattering class is actively undermining their own goal.

    Parent

    They are in a habit of blaming clinton (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:21:46 AM EST
    for everything.

    It's very sad to see them continue it.

    Parent

    I suppose decency (5.00 / 5) (#84)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:11:04 AM EST
    would be a primary standard.  How many Jefferson-Jackson dinners has Clinton been booed at, only to be followed by Obama, who said nothing to the boo-ers?  How many debates, how many arena speeches, has Obama attended where his supporters childishly boo her, and he's either smiled, smirked, or just waited for it to end and said nothing to denounce such rudeness?

    I'm talking about concrete examples where Obama was himself faced with this type of behavior and condoned it by saying nothing.

    How is this different from McCain chuckling when a woman asked him how he planned to beat the b*tch?

    So, I would ask you to hold Clinton to this standard of decency.  For all she's decried as breaking the party in two, she has consistently said that Obama is a good person, but he's just not qualified.  She has consistently said that she would support him if he won the nomination.  She has consistently said that the party will be united.

    Obama's just started humming that tune (as with everything, he follows Clinton's lead)

    Parent

    Don't Recall Seeing Obama Ever Address (5.00 / 4) (#179)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:41:16 AM EST
    the behavior of his supporters in regards to Tavis Smiley. Tavis received death threats, his family was harassed and he had to leave his job on he radio because of the abuse of Obama supporters. The only comment I remember Obama making about this, is that he would talk to Tavis.

     

    Parent

    Not trolling- but need to respond (none / 0) (#195)
    by samtaylor2 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:47:11 AM EST
    He has talked about tavis in the black media, mainly radio.  Very good discussions. No attacks.  Unfortunately (but for good reason), we as Black people are so afraid of black people stepping outside the accepted discussion.  This fear has occured I believe, because conservatives(mostly) get a black guy to repeat their conservative nonsense so they can say, see we aren't racist for believing X, Y or Z (the same thing happens with women's rights see abortion and title 9)

    Parent
    Did Obama Ever Tell His Supporters Black Or (none / 0) (#227)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:02:58 AM EST
    white to stop the attacks on Tavis? I have listened to Tavis Smiley on the radio and on TV for years. There is no way Tavis should be put into the same category as the black conservatives and anyone who is familiar with Tavis and his work should darn well know that. What exactly was Tavis crime? He criticized Obama for not attending a black function.

    Sorry, unless Obama denounced this type of behavior as completely unacceptable, my comment still stands.

    Parent

    To be fair . . . (none / 0) (#152)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:32:43 AM EST
    I have seen Obama scold those booing Clinton at his events and tell them that they should commend Senator Clinton for her service and for running a strong and historic campaign.  

    I haven't seen every speech, but he has complimented her in every single speech I have seen him give since the beginning of the campaign.

    Parent

    To be fair (5.00 / 4) (#194)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:46:38 AM EST
    I have seen Obama wiping his shoulder and his shoe to signify brushing Clinton away like dirt off his shoulders.  

    I'm torn between why this bothers me so much: because it's childish?  Because it's sexist?  Because it's arrogant?  Because it invokes a rap artist who calls women b*tches and wh*res?

    Myriad reasons, and most d*mning of all, this is from the candidate himself, not a surrogate, not a blogger boy, but a 47 year old father of two who is seeking the democratic nomination for the presidency.

    Parent

    He did that in the context (none / 0) (#218)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:57:43 AM EST
    of comments about how he thought negative attacks upon him should be dealt with.  He was suggesting that they should not be responded to.

    If you want to criticize him for his musical preferences . . . I can't argue with that.

    Parent

    OH PLEASE. (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:00:18 AM EST
    He has done NOTHING but call her character into question time and time and time again.  

    Parent
    He has said (4.66 / 3) (#170)
    by madamab on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:37:52 AM EST
    she had bad character and poor judgment.

    He has portrayed her and Bill as racists and 93% of AA's are now voting for him because of it.

    You think he has been decent to her?

    Parent

    Lie (1.00 / 1) (#183)
    by samtaylor2 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:42:03 AM EST
    He has never said she has bad character.

    Parent
    Truth. (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:45:44 AM EST
    He said she would do ANYTHING to win.  No matter the cost. He has attacked her character time and time and time again. He has called her a racist, He has called her a liar (Bosnia??), he has painted Bill our great Democrat as a Republican-lite that inherited a good economy. He has disgusted me.  The only way I would ever vote for Obama is if he got down on both knees and BEGGED both Clintons for forgiveness for the way he has painted them. And even then, I probably still wouldn't.

    Parent
    How can one a campaign (none / 0) (#214)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:55:56 AM EST
    without painting onesself as being the candidate with superior judgment and character?

    And while I don't agree with those who suggest the Clintons are racists, some of their statements have lent themselves to charges of a racial undercurrent.  I am not AA, so I cannot judge those who reacted negatively to those comments.

    He has not been kind to her.  But I have never seen a campaign this close, with this much passion be run so positively on both sides (and I say that at someone who has been greatly angered by rhetoric from the Clinton campaign).

    Parent

    If I was King of the World . . . (none / 0) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:04:38 AM EST
    deal with realities, not what should be please.

    Parent
    If the creative class which I call the (none / 0) (#220)
    by thereyougo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:57:54 AM EST
    Kindergarten class, are OK with Obama throwing them under the bus when they urged him not to go to Fox news, and the other times it served Obama's purposes, then this bunch's 15 mins. of fame will be over soon enough for lack of cred. They'll become the fringe group that look their noses down on Hillary's supporters now.

    Ironic that.

    As someone said, they'll only be relevant in their own minds. I 2nd that emotion.

    Parent

    Supporters to be Judged by (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Rhouse on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:00:42 AM EST
    should include Donna B. and her fabulous e-mails.  They show such caring and concern for all parts of the Democratic party.  Oh but wait, since I'm an older voter from PA I can't be a Democrat, and if I was a woman, well then just send me to the ninth circle.

    Parent
    Should we? No (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:03:58 AM EST
    Do people do it? Yes.

    Parent
    Two words... (none / 0) (#209)
    by lectric lady on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:53:00 AM EST
    Donna Brazile

    Parent
    It is not all blogs (none / 0) (#213)
    by BarnBabe on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:55:06 AM EST
    You only mention the blogs, but when Donna spouts it out on CNN, it has gone beyond blogs. The funny part of that is most of the bloggers do not even realize they are not part of the new order being put forth. They are really members of a community and a movement, but in the end they will be left out when their agenda is not inacted. This is all about getting elected. And in Indiana, when Lake held up those votes. He did not want Hillary to get a chance to be able to raise more money and have a victory speech in prime time. This was very apparent also. People noticed without the help from the blogs but the mayor is a supporter also. So, blogs and TV and goofy mayors and MSNBC are all supporters. Even now, Obama does not want the rest of the country's votes to count. He does not want Hillary ending with support from PR. He would prefer not to see WV or Kentucky. So I have to judge him for his supporters and history and his demeanor. And at one time I thought him a good candidate until I examined the flaws. Too many for me. Sorry, guess I am in that Hillary group and proud of it.

    Parent
    It's all on the net (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:19:13 AM EST
    Its all on the net. If I were Rove i'd be nexus lexusing Dkos for the juicey comments.

    Parent
    You have it backwards. (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:19:57 AM EST
    sadly.

    Parent
    Who is the leader? (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Leisa on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:20:31 AM EST
    The tone of supporters echo the tone of the leader.  Sorry, I have heard his speeches and have watched him closely.

    He claims to be above petty, personal attacks.  That has been demonstrated to not be true.

    He complains that being attacked and distractions keep him from discussing issues that are important in his stump speeches.  Well, that is what he is choosing to talk about instead of what he plans to do.  He chooses to highlight negativity of Hillary instead of discussing issues in a meaningful way most of the time.

    Effective leaders control the tone of their supporters.  When SD's come out to support him, he should ask them not to personally attack Clinton as one reason for supporting him.  

    There are several problems with his leadership that indicate to me that he cares only for a certain coalition.  He does not seem to care about many Americans and their needs.  It is all about him.

    I think that is the tone he has set.  Many of his supporters follow the leader.

    Parent

    Obama suggests certain things (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:25:51 AM EST
    his surrogates reinforce the suggestions and th efans act out.

    That's the basic structure.

    They are still acting out on Clinton though. It's sad.

    Parent

    I certainly see that!! (none / 0) (#149)
    by Leisa on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:31:08 AM EST
    Obama has played the Victim Card (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by Josey on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:44:30 AM EST
    quite successfully.
    He's repeatedly stated "people in Washington thought we couldn't win" - ha!  
    He presents himself as an "outsider" - while the Washington establishment has promoted him from the gitgo.
    A newbie naive senator would never run without the backing of the Washington establishment.

    Parent
    I try to do that (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:20:38 AM EST
    But when Open Left is writing what it is as are the other Obama sites, it is becoming near impossible to stop it.

    The problem is mollifying the supporters of Clinton here.

    I wonder that Obama supporters are not getting that.

    Parent

    That's what i don't understand about 'em (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:24:47 AM EST
    I'm cool with Obama, although I get extremely critical.

    But I also realize what the Clinton supporters are going through. Terrible amount of pain seeing someone you are loyal to get beaten.

    One thing I like about the Clintion supporters is that loyalty.

    You'd think Obama fans would realize that vigorous energy should be embraces and redirected against the GOP.

    Parent

    Yup. Well said. (none / 0) (#174)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:39:23 AM EST
    I think for some it is hard because that energy is still directed at Obama.  

    For some it will be impossible, just as it will be impossible for some Clinton supporters to support Obama.

    Parent

    I am a part of the creative class (5.00 / 5) (#202)
    by BigB on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:50:01 AM EST
    And I don't like the ideological purge that is taking place in the Democratic party right now.

    The Obama wing of the party needs to be stopped before it ruins the Democratic party.

    This is what we went through during the McGovern campaign and Middle America deserted us and it took Bill Clinton to bring them back to the party.

    The parallel to the late 60s and early 70s is eerie.

    On the other hand, this may have to work out on its own. Maybe the party needs to face the electoral consequences of the Obama wing alienating the rest of us.

    Parent

    Excellent comment (4.66 / 3) (#223)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:00:23 AM EST
    and one that shows an appreciation for history.  I am also part of the "creative class", at least as it is defined, and completely agree with you.  I hear comparisons to Adlai Stevenson and Obama, but I do think the better comparison is McGovern.

    Listen people, you can be a professional, shop at whole foods, drink PBR, and not be condescending or feel superior.  I am happy that many of the up-and-coming urban professionals are not turning into me-first Republicans like happened in the 80's.  But I don't want them to be me-first Democrats either.

    Parent

    Listen to yourself (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:21:08 AM EST
    isn't it time to start working FOR something rather than AGAINST?  If Obama really does have this thing wrapped up, wouldn't it be smarter to make some friends?

    Parent
    I refuse to uprate those comments. (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Fabian on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:41:52 AM EST
    That's just my choice.  I learned something about standards from Daily Kos before they became what they are now.

    I learned one thing this primary season.  I've learned whose judgement I can trust and who will throw logic, objectivity and rationality to the wind when they jump on the bandwagon.  Ann Coulter used to be my standard for use of logical fallacies, ad hominems and overall bad, over wrought writing.  Now she has plenty of competition on the leftblogs.

    Parent

    Obama has deliberately distanced himself (none / 0) (#139)
    by chancellor on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:28:44 AM EST
    from some of his strongest supporters--AAs, blogosphere, Move-On--because, right now, he needs their votes. However, I predict that this will come back to haunt him in the GE, assuming that he's the nominee. Many voters may know nothing about the blogs, but, thanks to the traditional media, a lot of them have heard of Move-On and the (IMO) incredibly poorly worded ad run by Move-On in the NYT. There are some inflammatory stories that never die: the General Betray Us and the Kos comment about mercenaries, for two. McCain's campaign, and the news media, will hitch those to Obama like gum to the bottom of your shoe. Obama is trying to run as the Bloomberg candidate, but he'll end up being painted as the Nader candidate--too scary for typical Americans. Even though Obama has deliberately avoided being seen to court even the AAs who are so heavily supporting him, as well as Move-On and the vast majority of the blogosphere, his inability to deal with this type of support now, rather than later, will be the source of his "swiftboating" in the campaign by the Repubs.

    Parent
    The main assault on him (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:37:01 AM EST
    will be the fiction that he presents about being post-racial and post-ideological.

    Dreams from my Father, Wright and Ayers will explode the myths that he has had to create to appeal to Iowa and the rest of middle America.

    His speech in 2004 directly contradicts many of Obama's written steaments in his autobiography.

    Parent

    Just a question about the nature of Obama support (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by thomphool on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:47:42 AM EST
    I keep hearing some say, "Judge Obama on the candidate, not on the nature and tone of his supporters."  If the underlying logic of the argument for Obama's campaign is that the way to change politics and effect change for good on policy is to create a chorus of unified voices and a movement for change, isn't it completely fair, even necessary to judge Obama's campaign by the tone and tenor of his supporters?

    This is REALLY starting to worry me as we head towards the fall.  Obama, more than most campaigns, is opening himself up to his supporters being used against him.  I'm just picturing the ads right now  juxtaposing Obama talking about "the movement" and the wave of support and contrasting it with the actual words of supporters, and it's frightening.  BTD is right, the relative low reach of most of this stuff is fine for now, but all it takes is one well placed use of this for it to come back and hurt Democrats in the fall.  

    So what? WV is racist (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by lambert on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:50:04 AM EST
    And they don't deserve to be part of the new Democrat Party that Obama and the "creative class" are building.

    Away with them!

    Why is WV racist and NC not? (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by stefystef on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:04:42 AM EST
    Obama gets 92% of blacks and that's not racist???

    Obama as played the race card almost perfectly.
    Almost.

    But 92% of less than 12% of the population will not get Obama in the White House.  And there are WAY more "Bubbas" than so-called "Creatives".  The Bubbas will be going to McCain.

    Now is that racist, or just the facts?

    Parent

    Didn't you know? (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:09:05 AM EST
    Only white people can be deemed racist.

    Parent
    I do believe (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by Lil on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:26:03 AM EST
    that white racism is different than when in reverse. Issues of privilege and which goups have traditionally been part of the dominant/powerful is at play here. Racism is more than an individual acting like a jerk to someone of a different race. It is so much more and it is systemic and a pattern of coercive control and is about who has power and who doesn't.  

    As a white person, I try to be am ally to people of color. My aggravation has been that people of color have not reciprocated (by and large) by being an ally to women by fighting misogyny/sexism, not to mention being an ally to gays or any other typically marginalized group.

    OT, That said, I just sent money to HRC. Miracles can happen, I say with fingers crossed.

    Parent

    "who has power and who doesn't" (none / 0) (#175)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:39:30 AM EST
    so if Obama is elected does that mean they can be racists too?


    Parent
    of course not (none / 0) (#184)
    by Lil on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:42:20 AM EST
    Identity politics doesn't always mean it is racist. Of course anyone can misuse power.

    Parent
    AAs (none / 0) (#198)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:48:11 AM EST
    are fast becoming a "pseudo-minority". Emmanual Todd's Apres L'Empire illustrated how what he termed as the "Anglo-Saxon" anthropological system--creates in groups and out groups. In years passed blacks were definitely an out group.  Various European ethnics groups at one time or another were also out groups but were assimilated. Catholic Irish and Italians most famously.

    With the advent of America' wars in the Middle east and South Asia the system found a new out group to turn into a boogey man  (possibly immigration hysteria has deemed Latinos to be an out group now.)

    So yeah you might find Aas adopt some interesting habits now.

    Parent

    AAs are a minority (none / 0) (#182)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:42:03 AM EST
    under enormous pressure.  

    Latinos are displacing them economically and demographically, and are on the thresh hold of geographic domination of the South West.

    Also one interesting thing about 9/11 is that blacks became much less feared by whites and the Arabs and South Asians became the racial boogy man.  Ironically 9/11 made it more likely for a black man or woman to become president.

    Parent

    Only people with power.... (none / 0) (#216)
    by kdog on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:56:16 AM EST
    can be racist...a racist with no power is simply prejudiced.

    Parent
    Battle (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:10:34 AM EST
    Bozos vs. the Bubbas.  

    Parent
    I hope this comment is deleted. n/t (none / 0) (#16)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:52:12 AM EST
    Lighten up (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Demi Moaned on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:53:41 AM EST
    It's obviously snark.

    Parent
    Why? (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:02:36 AM EST
    Bowers' comment is reflected n that comment.

    Parent
    I don't! n/t (none / 0) (#23)
    by Steve M on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:54:53 AM EST
    It is the "Bubba" camp that... (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by stefystef on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:50:06 AM EST
    will put McCain in office in November.

    I'm sorry that the Democratic Party has decided to abandon the BlueDog Democrats who have kept this party going though the Reagan years and these Bush years for the new "strange" the so called "Creative" Class that brings the same kind of liberal/leftist thinking that drove many away back in the 80s.

    Like my mom said, the Democratic Party is on a suicide mission.  And I refuse to aid them in this endeavor.

    Hillary Clinton-  Still. The. Right. Choice.

    That is why Dems lose in the fall. n/t (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by DJ on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:32:13 AM EST
    Riiiight. (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:34:55 AM EST
    Real Dems that don't believe in universal healthcare and that are for tort reform and that praise Reagan!

    New Dems! Yay!

    Parent

    Neocon mentality (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:50:13 AM EST
    I see so many parallels.  They won, but they destroyed the Republican party.  They created an unlikely coalition based on vague notions and ideas of a "movement".   The "progressive boiz" were so envious, all they could do is imitate the Kristols et. al.

    Stellaaa (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:53:49 AM EST
    I was just quoting you on the other thread.  I think you're so right on this.  The dem party is going to be completely redefined going forward.  The core values-working for the middle class, fighting for social justice-are being slowly picked off.

    How many more idiots can we absorb before the brand becomes diluted?

    Parent

    sorry (none / 0) (#128)
    by CanadianDem on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:26:34 AM EST
    but as an outside observer I see it as quite the opposite....the equivalent of the Repub warblogger class was stopped from taking over the dem party and leading the the way of Malkin.

    Parent
    Agreed (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:55:11 AM EST
    it's almost like they envision themselves the intelligentsia or something.

    I do not believe that they share the same devotion to Democratic Ideals that I believe form the basis of the party.  Inclusion, equality, fairness.

    These people are practically planning a purge.

    Parent

    I comment about core (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:38:54 AM EST
    Democratic Ideals, inclusion, equality, fairness, and you respond with:

    there are more of us than you, so we win.

    Do you not see the problem with this?  How old are you?


    Parent

    What You Fail To Realize Is Now That (none / 0) (#211)
    by MO Blue on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:53:50 AM EST
    Obama is going to be the nominee, we, the Clinton supporters don't need you, but Obama does need us.

    Parent
    You joined today (none / 0) (#234)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:12:56 AM EST
    just to make these kinds of comments?  What do you think you're proving here?  That you can p!ss off even more people?  Yesterday BTD was trying to get discussion going on a unity ticket etc trying to bring the party together, and you come drop this garbage?

    Oh yea, I forgot to say welcome.  My guess is you aren't new, just a new name, the same old same old anyways.

    Parent

    You are so right (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by DJ on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:15:26 AM EST
    And hopefully after four years of McCain the Democratic Party will rediscover itself and be the better for it.  It's a shame though that more than likely we have lost the best presidential candidate we have had in my lifetime.  I want better for my children.  

    Parent
    Amen, Friend (5.00 / 4) (#169)
    by flashman on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:37:44 AM EST
    And let me also point out that the party is missing a historical opportunity to win back the coalition that made it once viable.  The so-called "Regan Democrats", working class, union people, rural Democrats, etc.  They were ready to defect back to the party, till the party told them that they aren't needed anymore.  How long will it take before they give it another chance?

    Parent
    That's what is so counter intuitive (5.00 / 2) (#206)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:50:45 AM EST
    about Obama's campaign.

    The idea for 2008 was IMHO was to recapture the Reagan Dems.

    Obama probably can't do that.

    Parent

    honestly (none / 0) (#144)
    by CanadianDem on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:30:28 AM EST
    it's disheartening to see such venom from people who didn't get what they wanted.  Instead of wallowing in (and almost seemingly enjoying it) 'McCain will win defeatist' rhetoric why not get up, stand up and continue your battle from within the Dem party, represent the views and ideas you hold dear, just because your pol apparently has not won doesn't mean take you ball and go home.

    Stand up for your beliefs and forge ahead, it does no one any good for you to throw up your arms and say 'as well they'll learn after 4 years of McCain'...that not only imperils your country but your own desires as well.

    Parent

    Once again... (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by madamab on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:34:07 AM EST
    Obama's platform does not reflect our beliefs.

    He has divided the Party among racial lines.

    He has not asked for our vote.

    Why should we support him?

    Telling us to suck it up will not work.

    You do not understand the problem.

    Parent

    The NDP is not my party. (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by DJ on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:35:32 AM EST
    I've always considered myself more of an independent anyway.  Almost always vote Dem though.  And no, it's not because  I didn't get what I want.  It's because I will not support and encourage the extreme behavior encouraged by the Obama campaign.  My resolve strengthens when I see it on the right and when I see it on the left.  I support Hillary because she can get it done.  Obama is just a corporate suit.  
    But thank you for your concern.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:51:27 AM EST
    I just don't see how this kind of blow-out will be ignored by anyone with a brain in their head (and not in their a*s...)

    People are going to start asking, "if he is winning, why does he keep losing?"

    KY is arguably a swing state.  It's not Utah.  Clinton has a chance there.  Taylor Marsh had a quote from Mr Potato Head yesterday that came before IN/NC, wherein he said that if Clinton won IN, Obama was in trouble.

    I think that dynamic hasn't changed.

    Clinton has a chance in KY (none / 0) (#19)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:53:17 AM EST
    like Obama has a chance in TX.

    Parent
    She Actually Could Win Kentucky (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by BDB on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:56:02 AM EST
    Her husband did twice and she only trails by 2 in the latest SUSA poll.  Her numbers there are much better than Obama's numbers in Virginia despite how I keep being told that he doesn't need Ohio or Pennsylvania because he's going to turn states like VA blue.

    Parent
    There are a lot of Bubbas in Kentucky (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by andgarden on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:58:23 AM EST
    and many of them would be happy to vote for the new and improved Hillary Clinton.

    There are only two reasons she might lose: latent sexism and single-issue abortion voters.

    Parent

    Please don't confuse the issue (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:01:33 AM EST
    with facts.  We need hope, people.  That's the only way we'll get change.

    Utah, GA, AL, NC, SC and the Dakotas are swing states.

    KY is just something republicans use for a warming sensation.

    Parent

    TX.  But TX is a red state.  Same for Clinton in KY.  Hardly worth debating anyway as we are drifting off topic.  I just question classifying KY as a swing state.

    Parent
    Obama has no chance in Texas. n/t (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by DJ on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:18:03 AM EST
    I am in Fort Worth, Texas (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:29:52 AM EST
    and he has ZERO chance to win here.  Fort Worth gave Bush the second largest plurality in the nation behind Orange County, CA back in 2004.

    Prescott Bush lives here, so do the Bass Family and a ton of other rich, conservative Repubicans.

    Obama will win Austin, but that's about it.  But then again, McGovern could win Austin. 4,526,917 people voted for Bush here in 2004.

    Doubt that Obama will get to that number...or even half of it.

    Parent

    Hey I'm in FW too! (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by DJ on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:38:06 AM EST
    can you think of any place in Texas other than a few spots where he could win?  There is not a chance.  Our neighbors didn't talk to us for several months for having a Kerry sign in our yard!  

    Parent
    I can tell you where he will LOSE (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:42:29 AM EST
    big time:  the Rio Grande Valley and south TX.  They carried the state for Clinton.  Robbstown, which is a small town outside of Corpus Christi, had 9000 people show up to see Clinton.  

    Old school Latinos and Dems remember her and Bill from the 1970s.  Those guys know what's going on with the purge.  They will not vote for him in the fall.

    I know a DJ here in FW...he's a political consultant.

    Parent

    Naw (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:00:25 AM EST
    Hillary has more of a chance to take KY AND TX than Obama would but neither state will be won by a Dem.

    Parent
    Which was my point. n/t (none / 0) (#54)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:01:56 AM EST
    Why Are We Calling KY Red? (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by flashman on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:45:43 AM EST
    In that last 4 elections, it swung twice blue and twice red.  That's the very definition of a swing state!

    Parent
    Rasmussen declared Obama has won (none / 0) (#226)
    by Josey on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:02:22 AM EST
    and will soon discontinue daily tracking polls of Hillary and Obama.
    Today - Obama 50, Hillary 42


    Parent
    Balony! (5.00 / 1) (#233)
    by flashman on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:11:04 AM EST
    That makes me rather angry.  RCP average has the spread Less Than 1%

    But more importantly, it shows the polls tightening in recent polling.  I reject any tomfollery about this being over.

    Parent

    If only your opinion (none / 0) (#22)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:54:30 AM EST
    mattered to me.  Or, dare I say, anyone here...

    Parent
    Come on Kathy (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:01:12 AM EST
    All we have is our opinions. No need to be nasty.

    Parent
    sorry (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:03:53 AM EST
    since Tues, the new trolls have made me feel a bit like I'm being nibbled to death by ducks.

    Parent
    Kathy . . . (none / 0) (#83)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:11:01 AM EST
    while I haven't participated that much here, I have been here since BTD's first days here.  I'm sorry you think I am a troll.  I am opinionated and I do support a different candidate.  But I do try to be respectful here.  My response to your comment was an attempt to be reality based and suggest that no Dem will win either state.

    Parent
    I was talking about trolls in general (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:16:24 AM EST
    though I have to admit that I find your recent post about how we Clinton supporters need to just accept the reality that Obama has won, and get over it, extremely condescending.

    I am not a child.  I can do addition just as well as anyone else.  If this race were over, then Obama would be the clear winner.  The SDs have not moved toward him for a reason.

    The last time I checked, the dem party was the party that demanded all voted be counted.  Perhaps you should wait to unfurl your Mission Accomplished banner until after the primaries are completed.

    Parent

    I'm beginning to wonder about my addition... (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by sweetthings on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:21:29 AM EST
    Because this whole 'it's over' meme is really taking off this time. Rasmussen has just announced that they are ending their daily tracking poll for the Democratic nomination, since it's effectively been decided. They will focus on Obama-McCain polls going forward.

    Did the 50-Super wave materialize when I wasn't looking?

    Parent

    Please forgive my (none / 0) (#97)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:18:01 AM EST
    exuberance.  I mean that.  I am anxious to move on to the GE so we can try to repair the divisions in the party and I do believe the race is all but finished.  I did not mean to offend.

    Parent
    thank you (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:24:15 AM EST
    and, again, I'm a bit hot-tempered because of the recent influx of trolls, especially since Tuesday.  

    And I don't accept the "inevitable" theme.  Two weeks ago, Obama was supposed to take IN and NC by huge margins.  All those elections proved to me (and I daresay BTD) was that Obama is in deep crap because he's losing large swaths of the voting blocs he needs for the ge.

    The only way to "heal" is to have a clear winner who is perceived as having fairly won the nomination.  Without FL and MI decided, and without these last primaries being held where voters get a say, then we don't have that.  These calls for Clinton to drop out so that Obama can win are just insulting to me.  Even Huckabee, who was three zillion delegates behind, was not railed against for destroying the party.

    Let all the votes count.  The biggest thing that is splitting the party is people saying that the party is splitting.

    Parent

    Here' s some history for all of you (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:23:40 AM EST
    This guy, named Bill Clinton, won Kentucky twice back in the 1990s.  Maybe I am being a politically optimistic, but it wouldn't be a stretch for him to go there and maybe make some inroads for Senator Clinton.

    And here's another tidbit:  Obama called NC a swing state.  If that's true, then that goes for Texas, since the last time NC 'swung' for a Dem was Jimmy Carter.

    OMG I am SO glad I am not part of those high-fallutin' creative class types.

    Parent

    He is not a troll (none / 0) (#96)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:17:56 AM EST
    I have known him forever. You want to see more Obama supporters like him.

    Parent
    Thank you my friend. (none / 0) (#116)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:22:36 AM EST
    But Kathy is right that I could be more sensitive towards Clinton supporters right now.

    I do try but I am still half in advocacy mode and half caught up in the exuberance of a succesful campaign.  

    Parent

    Totally (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:25:47 AM EST
    Obama kicked some major butt out in Utah and Idaho.  Can't wait to see those turn sapphire blue in the fall.

    Meanwhile California is going to be up for grabs.  

    Parent

    Nice. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:57:11 AM EST
    Peace and good health to you.

    Parent
    Bill Clinton won Kentucky. Twice. (none / 0) (#41)
    by madamab on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:59:16 AM EST
    It's a possibility.

    Parent
    Yikes (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:51:41 AM EST
    that is scary.  Out with the Bubbas?  These people are too-the-core elitists.  They sure do think a lot of themselves, too.

    The worst part is that they seem to be betraying the core Democratic value of fighting for the lower classes.

    These people have been leading this "netroots" phenomenon for years now.  Has this always been their goal?

    Least of all Obama himself ... (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Demi Moaned on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:51:52 AM EST
    who has made his disdain of the left blogs all too clear.
    Thank Gawd so relatively few people read the blogs.

    It's one thing that gives me hope. Leaving aside the frenzied and irrational Hillary-bashing, what most strikes me over at AgentOrange these days is how much bad advice is being proferred to Obama.

    I keep thinking to myself: Do any of these people actually want to win in November?

    trying to purge from the Party: (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:52:03 AM EST
    you know what
    this could be the only area the succeed in completely.

    The last time the purged the party (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by stefystef on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:08:20 AM EST
    we had Reagan and Bush for 12 years and a Republican Congress for 12 years.

    So much for the elite taking the Democrats to the promise land.

    Parent

    Amen (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by andgarden on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:52:05 AM EST
    Thank Gawd so relatively few people read the blogs.


    MSM (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:55:26 AM EST
    Few people read the blog, but I think the MSM use them.  As the MSM saves money and gets rid of valid reporters, the garner much of their "news" and attitudes from the blogs.  I don't think lots of people read them but they do get impact when the MSM in their laziness, spreads their venom.

    Parent
    It's true (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:56:27 AM EST
    and I can remember a time when that was very useful. Now it is just destructive.

    Parent
    You know (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:56:15 AM EST
    this feels very much like the good old days when they thought Lamont was actually going to beat Lieberman. (not saying I like Lieberman)

    They were all so full of themselves when Lamont won the primary, then guess what, they crashed and burned in the general.

    Actually Lamont could have beaten Lierberman (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:59:04 AM EST
    He went off message.

    Parent
    As I recall (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by andgarden on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:00:06 AM EST
    he went on vacation.

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#130)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:27:11 AM EST
    Yes. Yes, he did.  Obama should go on vacation. Since KY and WV don't matter now.  And funny how she STILL gets way less white support then he does Black.  But we can't talk about that. It would be unseemly and racist.

    Parent
    Lamont did beat Lieberman in the primary. (none / 0) (#56)
    by madamab on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:02:34 AM EST
    Lieberman refused to abide by the decision of Connecticut Democrats.

    Instead, he switched parties to "CFL" and got enough Republican votes to win the General. The Republicans deliberately enabled this by running a weak candidate who got no money or big endorsements from the national party.

    Parent

    At this point (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:05:33 AM EST
    I'm glad he did it.  He was right.  The party is being taken over by crazies.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:16:07 AM EST
    let me introduce myself, as one of the crazies who fought for Liebrman to be primaried.

    Parent
    Like I've said (none / 0) (#100)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:18:39 AM EST
    I didn't support Lieberman.  I don't support Lieberman.  However, now I really do believe that the Lieberman election was an experiment to see if the "Creative Class" candidate could win.

    Parent
    Oh TeresainSnow. (none / 0) (#79)
    by madamab on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:09:26 AM EST
    Lieberman was Obama's mentor.

    Lieberman is the PROBLEM.

    Lamont was not crazy. He was more of a Clinton Dem. Had he been elected, we would have seen a lot more movement on the war in the Senate.

    Parent

    I didn't say Lamont was crazy (none / 0) (#94)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:17:31 AM EST
    I said that his supporters on the net were crazy.

    In hindsight I think the Lieberman election was the beginning of the "Creative Class warfare" that the Bowers faction has started.

    I'm not a Lieberman supporter, but I see his point now.

    Parent

    I guess I see it differently. (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by madamab on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:25:14 AM EST
    I was hoping the blogs could help usher in a new era of a progressive Democratic majority. They were a great place to talk about the issues and how terrible the Republicans were on them. They were a great place to get the news that the corporate media wasn't telling you. They also made it very easy to donate to your favorite upstart liberal Dem.

    I don't see that this dream was really derailed until they all decided to worship the Precious instead of the tried-and-true liberal ideals of people like RFK and FDR. They certainly never called themselves "creative class" until then. And they used to care about the working class and not pretend that Democratic reforms like the Civil Rights Act and the 40-hour work week only affected white people.

    Now I see the change I was looking for dying before my eyes, and I weep for what my country and my Party is becoming.

    Parent

    That too (none / 0) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:15:28 AM EST
    You may not know this, but I was calling for Lieberman to be primaried in January 2005.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#177)
    by BDB on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:40:26 AM EST
    And then after running an energetic and effective primary campaign, having vanquished Lieberman, from what I could see from California, there was then a less than forceful effort in the general.  

    I think a lot of people genuinely wanted Lieberman out of the Senate (count me among them), but it at least seemed the real energy was in the primay and it dissipated once Lieberman was driven from the party.

    Which I'm beginning to think might not be a coincidence.

    Not that I'm not glad that Lieberman was driven from the party, but I'd be happier if we had Ned Lamont in the Senate.

    Parent

    Heh. (none / 0) (#190)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:45:15 AM EST
    Your prescience is exceeded only by your modesty, sir.  ;)

    Parent
    So Does Anyone Have The Email Addresses (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by BDB on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:58:21 AM EST
    for all democratic voters in West Virginia, KY, SD, and MT, and the ones for working class dems in OR?  Because I'd like to do my part for party unity and introduce them to Open Left.  Let them welcome their new creative class overlords.  I'm sure it will go very well.


    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Steve M on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:03:13 AM EST
    I ain't shore Bubba's got that email thang, to tell ya the truth.

    Parent
    You'd be surprised (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:06:39 AM EST
    My born-again, home-schooling, Bush-loving in-laws living in a double-wide in KY are very internet savvy.

    Parent
    my grandfather is internet savvy (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:36:37 AM EST
    everyone reads blogs.
    this is more classist bulls**t

    Parent
    Sorry. I don't do that to my (none / 0) (#212)
    by Fabian on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:53:59 AM EST
    ex-WV living friend or my current WV living relative.

    Why would you do that to anyone you care about?

    Parent

    Dalton (5.00 / 6) (#38)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:58:38 AM EST
    I know you are a good guy, but Obama is never going to apologize for anything.  He still has not apologized for Wright.  The man lacks the humility gene, but most of all, politicians don't really apologize (including, I will admit, my girl; it's just not in the political handbook because it looks weak).

    Again and again, Obama had the chance to take the high road.  Can you imagine where we would be now if, during any one instance, he had taken a moral stand against the blatant misogyny in the media?  What if he'd joined Clinton in boycotting MSNBC for their sexist comments?  What if he'd written a letter to Shuster alongside Clinton, demanding they apologize for the "pimp" remark?

    At just about every crossroads, Obama has diverged from the high road.  It would have cost him nothing to do the things I listed above, and gained him everything.  What makes anyone think he'll start doing the right thing now?

    In the past couple of years, (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by madamab on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:12:06 AM EST
    McCain has been preparing for the nomination by changing his voting record to hard right. He disagrees with Bush only 8% of the time now. (Saw it in Harper's Magazine.)

    McCain knows that you have to take time to woo voters to your side. You can't do it in a few months - not even with sheep like conservatives.

    I agree that Obama's only chance is to apologize, and keep apologizing, and to rein in his more wild-eyed supporters.

    But he should have done that from the beginning.

    Parent

    I want to see him conduct - (none / 0) (#86)
    by liminal on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:13:05 AM EST
    - an HRC-style rural listening tour, focused on specific economic polices and not mealy mouthed platitudes about clean coal.  Of course, as a West Virginian, I'd like to see him start here, where he has such a disadvantage.  

    I'd also like to see him campaign here regardless of those polls.  It would show some political courage and real committment to a part of the country that he and his vociferous supporters seem intent on abandoning.  

    Parent

    liminal-- (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:18:14 AM EST
    watch the news.  McCain is doing just this very thing.  He did a "poverty tour" through MS and LA, and made a lot of noises about taking care of the working class.  You know, the folks Obama doesn't need.


    Parent
    Believe it or not - (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by liminal on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:32:50 AM EST
    - for all his fundraising woes, McCain is on the air in West Virginia.  He's running ads about how BOLD he is.  Of course, air time doesn't cost as much around here, and you can hit a big chunk of the state with ad buys in the Huntington-Charleston market.  

    Meanwhile, Obama's pandering to us with an ad featuring a coal miner from Southern Illinois.  Apparently, Obama saw "all the devastation" in the coal industry, and sent them some money for "clean coal" technology.  Hmm.  Sounds like Obama ain't above pandering, but that pander won't do him much good.  

    I don't know where he's been, but coal is going gangbusters in WV.  Believe it or not, there's a shortage of skilled coal miners here.  People are definitely concerned about the future of coal, but the economic problems in WV are not related to "devastation" in the coal industry.  

    Parent

    I'm planting my flag (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by cannondaddy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:04:46 AM EST
    West Virginia: Clinton by 31%.

    LINK

    LINK

    If Obama and Clinton were running a 1/4 mile... (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Exeter on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:07:53 AM EST
    ...race, or one time around the 440 yard track:

    Under the 2208 delegate model, both candidates would be on the home stretch, Obama would be 57 yards from the finish line, while Hillary would be 63 yards from the finish line... with super delegates having the ability to make the distance to the finish line approximately 60 yards shorter for either candidate. And John Edwards delegates hame the ability to make the distance to the finish line 6 yards shorter for either candidate.

    Under 2024 delegate model, both candidates would be on the home stretch and Obama would be 38 yards from the finish line, while Hillary would be 71 yards from the finish line.  Superdelegates could make the distance to the finish line 58 yards shorter for either candidate, while John Edward's delegates could make it four yards shorter.

    This thing is still very, very close -- especially in the 2208 model, and the Obama campaign knows it. That's why Obama doesn't want to include Michigan and Florida.

    oh.our.god! (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by cpinva on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:16:59 AM EST
    the "creative class" drinks PBR (the beer that made milwaukee retch!)? what a bunch of dufus posuers! no right thinking person, with actual working taste buds, would drink that swill, unless forced to at the point of a gun! even then, it'd be a tough choice.

    when i was a senior in h.s., i worked on weekend mornings cleaning & setting up 3 bars at the NCO club at quantico. i also did the liquor inventory. PBR was about the cheapest beer you could buy, and it still was about the slowest mover. billy beer was worse, but not by much! lol

    ok, i'll bite, truthmatters! since it does, please provide the names of those who you glibly accuse of this:

    should Hillary be judged by her supporters that feel she should be President because Obama is a racist Muslim who will destroy the Country?

    i've not seen any here. maybe at some of right-whacko blogs, but not here.

    since we're on the double-standard topic, i find it interesting that sen. obama making direct appeals to the black community, that he's done nothing discernible for in all his (few) years in public office, to vote for him solely because he's black, is ok. sen. clinton, citing her support among blue-collar caucasions (much more numerous than the AA community) is accused of being racist.

    this is the type of heavy duty thought process that dooms sen. obama in the fall, should he be the dem. nominee. it's a self-inflicted fatal wound.

    one last item: when did jon stewart become an idiot?

    and it's too late (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by DJ on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:19:50 AM EST
    no one would believe the apology to be sincere.  He has shown his true self already.

    lol (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:20:41 AM EST
    you don't know when to stop do you?

    what disgusting comments?

    This back and forth accomplishes (none / 0) (#157)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:34:30 AM EST
    nothing.  You know what comment are referred to.

    Both sides of this divide believe their candidate has been wronged by the other and that their candidate has taken the high ground.

    The truth is probably somewhere in between.

    Parent

    Like slander and libel (none / 0) (#201)
    by NotThatStupid on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:49:44 AM EST
    ... accusations - against which truth is a defense - a statement is not disgusting if it is true.

    Or have we become so politically correct that we cannot even state the truth?

    Parent

    speaking as a former "bubba" (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by DandyTIger on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:20:59 AM EST
    who spent some time in WV, but went to corrective education on "the farm", I can say that those of us who were bubbas or know bubbas also feel cast aside. If you care about the working class or are, or strive to move up to working class, you are no longer welcome in this new democratic party (NDP). I feel like I've been fired. Ha, and funny enough, I'm one of the people that helped develop digital video. I feel so used.

    As a slight aside, I'm noticing a whole pile of friends around here who feel so strongly about this that they will not vote for another man for president until there is a woman president. Wow, that's pretty strong. I don't know if those feelings will subside over time, but I'm sure many will hold on to that.

    I have worked it high tech industries (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:27:43 AM EST
    my whole working life.  I am educated and make more money than most of the "creative" types dissing me.
    we are not your fathers bubba.
    this is the biggest mistake the Obamans have made.
    it will resonate right through November.


    Parent
    I like that - we're not your fathers bubba (none / 0) (#154)
    by DandyTIger on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:33:07 AM EST
    I can see a new ad for that like those car commercials with Capt. Kirk and his daughter. How about Chelsea and Bill in the commercial. That would be a riot.

    Parent
    I love that the "NDP" n/t (none / 0) (#141)
    by DJ on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:29:10 AM EST
    Obama supporters continue to fan the (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by gabbyone on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:22:09 AM EST
    elitist fires.....I was over reading an article on
    AlterNet from a few days ago about all the websites Obama is setting up to help him win.  The Obama supporters in the comments were going through and calling anyone who made a mistake in spelling or grammar, Hillary supporters and correcting their mistakes.  His supporters are his worst enemies.

    I hate this kind of talk (none / 0) (#131)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:27:14 AM EST
    The practice of lumping all supporters of one candidate together and making blanket generalizations about them is far too rampant on the blogsphere.

    As an Obama supporter, I can assure you that the behavior of "Hillary supporters" looks no better from my vantage point.

    How about we all talk as Democrats?  

    Parent

    I will (none / 0) (#158)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:34:52 AM EST
    when Obama starts acting like it.  His campaign is top-down.  Lead by example.

    Parent
    He is. (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:41:22 AM EST
    Obama's carried himself with dignity.  As has has Senator Clinton.

    I submit to you that a lot of your perception otherwise is projection.

    Parent

    He is. (none / 0) (#186)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:42:48 AM EST
    Obama's carried himself with dignity.  As has has Senator Clinton.

    I submit to you that a lot of the perceptions otherwise regarding both of them is projection by overzealous supporters and conflict-addicted pundits.

    Parent

    "dirt off my shoulder" (none / 0) (#219)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:57:46 AM EST
    via Jay-Z, which Obama invoked when talking about Hillary Clinton:

    If you feelin like a pimp nigga, go and brush your shoulders off
    Ladies is pimps too, go and brush your shoulders off
    Niggaz is crazy baby, don't forget that boy told you
    Get, that, dirt off your shoulder

    Yes, I see where you think he's held the utmost respect for her.

    Parent

    Being offended is a choice (none / 0) (#231)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:07:22 AM EST
    One can spend their lives looking for abstract offenses and taking umbrage to them.

    If you truly beleive that this reference was meant in this way, then you have to also ask yourself about some of the complaints that Obama supporters had regarding racial undertones coming from the Clinton campaign.

    I'll assume you think those were overblown if not outright distortions - and I might just be inclined to agree with you. But hold the incident you just brought up to the same scrutiny and it does not wash.  


    Parent

    oh, yes (none / 0) (#142)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:29:47 AM EST
    websites!  That's how to reach the voters!

    Someone should tell them to look at the number of people who actually read political blogs, and the number of people who have high-speed access so they can watch videos and such.  A startling number of Americans are still on dial-up.  Likewise, it's shocking how many don't even have computers in their home.

    Those are the voters Obama doesn't need anyway, so I suppose it doesn't matter.

    Parent

    Obama and Creative Class (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:23:57 AM EST
    should be grateful for Geraldine.  She, I think, chaired the committee that crafter the rules that are giving  Obama a lead in delegates.  She was part of those "racists" that tinkered with public policy to give minority voices a fighting chance.  Proportionality and all that.  

    So, stop with the disgusting attacks on a woman who lived her life for justice.  You people have no historical base.    

    This part also strikes me as odd (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:27:15 AM EST
    Just a couple of weeks ago, we were hearing that Obama wasn't an elitist, but now we have Bowers writing this about Obama:

    living in Hyde Park to shopping at Whole Foods and drinking PBR.

    as if it's a good thing?  That is the definition of elitist in Chicago.  Would I like that lifestyle?  Sure.  Would I want people telling America about it while I'm trying to run for president?  NO WAY.

    His whole article proves (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:30:51 AM EST
    His article proves what is already political reality.  The beginning of this campaign season marked a focus on the people of this country, rather than the corporate power structure.

    Cultural Shift: Out with Bubbas, up with Creatives.  Sorry, Bubbas get very little representation in this country.  The creative class has always benefitted from corporate welfare (grants to univ, R&D paid for with Bubba tax dollars etc)

    It will consistently send out cultural signals designed to appeal primarily to the creative class instead of rich donors and the white working class.  Oh yeah, cuz dem wite wurkin clas peepul bin lovin on the Dem partee (who's congressional ratings are in the toilet)

    Policy Shift: Up with technocratic wonks. That;s the same old same old.. down with manufacturing jobs until we are a country of managers?  We already have that, that's not new.

    It will all be very oriented toward think-tank and academic types, but still not overtly leftist. Sorry, that's the same, this govt is riddled with think tanks and people who ponder what to do yet never manage to get anything done.  We can't get leftist policies with Republican control, if the goal is to dump leftist, rather than vote new Dem party, just voted old Repub party. People keep complaining that both parties are so corrupt, elitist and ineffective there is no actual representation.  He just wants to make it official.  So what?  We are going to continue to screw you, we're just telling you up front.

    Coalition reorganization: A long-standing Democrats approach of transactional politics with different issue and demographic silos in the party shift toward an emphasis on good government (goo goo) approaches. (both sides getting screwed is business as usual) instead of on, say, placating labor unions (again with loss of focus on manufacturing, is not new), environment groups, and the LGBT community by throwing each of these groups a policy bone or two. (THAT is business as usual) Now, the focus will be on broad, squishy fixes that are designed to appeal to several groups at once. (refusing to focus on real issues that face the country is business as usual) It should feel kind of like PIRG, but a bit more right-wing, academic and well-to-do. (Ha! Ha! that's new?)

    His whole essay was just describing business as usual for this govt.  It has to be one of the, I'll be polite, and say clueless and out of touch pieces of drivel so far.

    We have a presumptive nominee (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by andgarden on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:32:32 AM EST
    and his erstwhile supporters are actively excommunicating people from the party. You think that isn't a problem?

    I predict that the bubbas will have the last laugh in November, and McCain will laugh all the way to the White House.

    why everyone doesnt see this (5.00 / 3) (#156)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:34:21 AM EST
    is a complete mystery to me.

    Parent
    deniall denial denial (5.00 / 3) (#196)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:47:50 AM EST
    Eek! (none / 0) (#221)
    by hornhorn on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:58:16 AM EST
    the sky is falling, the sky is falling!

    Come on now.

    Parent

    chicken little was right (none / 0) (#229)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:04:41 AM EST
    What about latinos? (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by CSTAR on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:37:32 AM EST
    It is an incredible oversight that Bowers' article makes no mention of latinos in this new coalition. This is not a sustainable strategy over the next decade.  

    Maybe it isn't an oversight.  In California and in the Northeast the so-called "creative class" or technocrats rely on latinos (including now brazilians in New England) to do much of the janitorial work.

    No thanks.

    latinos are bubbas too (none / 0) (#215)
    by DandyTIger on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:56:12 AM EST
    They're working class or working poor or they care about those groups, and similarly don't count in the NDP. You know, I'm starting to think our new BP will be quite big indeed.

    Parent
    Why isn't Obama working WV? (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by davnee on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:49:33 AM EST
    Seriously, if it's all wrapped up for him, why isn't he taking this golden opportunity to test some campaign themes and begin laying the groundwork for connecting to working class voters?  He's going to get pummeled there no matter what, but why not try to do some diplomatic work there and in KY in order to start reaching out for the GE.  Of course, he has no chance in WV or KY in the GE, but he does need to peel off at least some Appalachia voters to get over the hump in OH, in PA, and even in VA and NC which he likes to tout as swing states for him.  I say get busy Obama.

    Of course, I am baffled by the whole "it's over" thing anyway.  Why can't he just say he's now confidant about his chances, but that he won't be satisfied until he's made his case to every last voter?  That everyone counts now as well as in November and he wants to take advantage of this time to introduce himself to all the voters, get to know them and their needs and let them get to know him, telling them he looks forward to coming back and continuing their conversation in November.  That would be a gracious and statesmanlike way to wind things down.

    The reason he is not winding this up graciously is he's scared.  He's scared either that things are not so in the bag as everyone says, or he's scared that there is a shoe out there somewhere that is liable to drop on him at any moment.  Who knows which it might be.  Is there an anti-American smoking gun sitting in the vault at Fox News?  Is there a Rezko/Auichi bombshell on the horizon?  Is the Odinga thing going to bubble up?  Have a core of undeclared supers sent him negative signals about his Nov. prospects?  Does Clinton have the votes on the rules committee for May 31?

    The only other alternative is that he and his campaign really is stupid enough to antagonize Clinton supporters at this late point and worse to continue to marginalize blue collar voters by telling them they don't count and even the suggestion that they do count and would be important in November is racist.  It's so profoundly unnecessary (unless of course it is necessary because Clinton ain't so dead as everyone says).

    He drinks PBR? (none / 0) (#1)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:45:50 AM EST
    Pabst Blue Ribbon? He may not be that elitist after all. ;-)

    only loser blogger boys (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:48:59 AM EST
    would think Pabst is the cool beer.

    Someone needs to send them the memo.

    Parent

    What do you think is the cool beer? (none / 0) (#32)
    by cannondaddy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:56:57 AM EST
    If PBR is the new taste (none / 0) (#95)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:17:41 AM EST
    then Schlitz must be the next one.

    I like Kronenberg.

    French alpine beer.

    Parent

    Actually, PBR (none / 0) (#42)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:59:23 AM EST
    is hipster beer.  The cool kids love it.

    Parent
    Jeez (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:03:31 AM EST
    It was considered dog p*ss in my day.

    Parent
    Mine too. (none / 0) (#204)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:50:36 AM EST
    Disgusting stuff.

    Parent
    Frank Booth loves it* (none / 0) (#74)
    by cannondaddy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:07:36 AM EST
    *Obscure Creative Class Reference

    Parent
    Oh. That's my problem. (none / 0) (#205)
    by Fabian on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:50:42 AM EST
    I've always been a snob, never a kewl kid.

    I'm a beer snob, a chocolate snob and a coffee snob.
    I'm even a plant snob.

    But I will never, ever tell you what you should or should not drink, eat or grow.  Or how you should vote.  I do believe in self determination.  

    Parent

    Barack Obama is not drinking Pabst (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by stefystef on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:01:30 AM EST
    Trust me.  No Harvard Law Degree man is drinking Pabst.
    Hell, I was in Boston a month ago and was on Harvard campus and there was no one selling Pabst.

    It is the Obama followers trying to make Obama an "Everyman", a man of the common people.

    This is fail because Barry is nothing like this, it's all fake.

    Parent

    PBR is the 'ironic' hipster beer (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Jim J on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:09:44 AM EST
    all the Kewl Kidz drink it.

    Parent
    Just you watch (none / 0) (#17)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:52:49 AM EST
    as this "creative class to the exclusion of everyone else" meme implodes, suddenly Obama will be drinking Animal Beer (Schmitz).

    It's his destiny.

    Parent

    66-23? (none / 0) (#3)
    by madamab on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:46:53 AM EST
    Golly gee, there sure are a lot of racist, gun-toting Bubbas in WV! Why, oh why, won't they bow to the Great Obama and recognize the greater wisdom of the New Elites - I mean, the Creative Class?!!!

    And speaking of Bowers, I had a little bit to say about him on my blog today. (NSFW - a bit of swearing.)

    Mumbo Jumbo (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by nellre on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:55:32 AM EST
    The creative class BS is a lot like your boss thinking that when you make something he should get credit.

    And since you make stuff, you're a grunt...

    Parent

    Between Numbers Like That (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by The Maven on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:56:55 AM EST
    and statements such as the one cited in the diary, I guess we can safely pronounce the death of the 50-state strategy.  Pity that Howard Dean can't seem to see that the process he tried to set in motion -- and which was ostensibly embraced by the "progressive" blogosphere -- is being cast off fewer than four years after its creation.

    Parent
    The 50 State "Strategy (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:03:13 AM EST
    I'll be writing about that on Wednesday.

    Parent
    It only applied to the primary. (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:38:27 AM EST
    That's the sense I got. Some genius crunched the data for the caucus states and realized how to beat the system.

    Parent
    It is because so few people read blogs that (none / 0) (#10)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:51:15 AM EST
    I'm am less concerned about the rift in the party.  No doubt there are many Clinton supporters online who will not vote for the nominee because of the viciousness of some of the pro-Obama rhetoric on blogs.

    But many, if not all Dems who voted for Hillary will support the nominee.  

    I read recently that 49% of McCain supporters said in 2000 they would not vote for Bush.

    Once either Clinton withdraws or the nomination is conclusively decided, he will need to reach out to working class voters.  

    Trade is one area he can point to . . . health care is the biggest one.  While Clinton supporters feel his plan doesn't go far enough and is unworkable, it's a hell of a lot better than anything we'll see from McCain.  And McCain will paint his plan with the Universal Healthcare/socialized medicine brush.

    And there is always the war.

    Well that is wronghead imo (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:01:51 AM EST
    The rift that matters is in the voting.

    Ignore it if you choose.

    Parent

    I have no doubt there is a rift in (none / 0) (#72)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:06:22 AM EST
    the voting.

    The question that for now remains unanswered because of the continuing primary is how it will translate to the GE.  

    Until the nomination is decided and Clinton is out of the race .  . . until time passes for Clinton supporters to come to terms with that reality . . .  we can't know how many of those votes will move to Obama.  I don't think polling is predictive until that point.

    There is no doubt there is work for Obama to do.  He needs to attack McCain on core Democratic issues important to those voters.  He's not really free to do that right now.

    I am not unconcerned by the rift.  But I don't view it a irreparable.

    Parent

    Time is important (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:19:00 AM EST
    The work needs to start now.

    Krugman outlined a lot of things that need to be done.

    Parent

    I agree that time is short . . . (none / 0) (#136)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:27:59 AM EST
    hence the frustration from the Obama camp directed at Clinton's continued presence in the race.  The Obama camp needs to get over it and focus on rebuilding the party now.  

    I'm hopeful his recent absence from the campaign trail indicates a reevaluation of the state of the race and the strategy going forward.  But I found the "declaring victory after Oregon" statement distressing.

    I agree with Krugman on this.  I'm just a bit more optimistic it can be done than you seem to be.  Krugman is right, this should be an easy win for the Dems.  But it can only be if the damage is repaired.  I believe it can be.

    Whether is is is up to Obama and each of us.

    Parent

    You (5.00 / 5) (#124)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:25:33 AM EST
    see, your post is part of the problem. This is what Obama and his supporters think:
    Once Clinton drops out Obama's problems will be solved. That is wrongheaded thinking.

    Obama's problems have nothing to do with Clinton and everything to do with Obama.

    Parent

    excellent point, GA6th (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by Kathy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:39:55 AM EST
    this is why Clinton won't drop out.  She is the strongest contender we have, and the dem echelon want to drop her for the same reason they wanted to drop Bill: she's too "blue collar" for their tastes.

    This reminds me of Jon Stewart waxing poetic about how an Obama/McCain match-up would be a "salve for the country."  That was when I stopped watching, because if there was ever a delusional line of thinking, it's that any political race for the presidency will be gentlemanly.  If Obama doesn't have Clinton to paint as the villain, then Obama no longer looks like the savior he claims to be.  McCain will rip him to shreds.

    We need Clinton--desperately.  I have family serving in Afghanistan, Iraq and Germany right now.  This isn't about intangibles to me.  

    Parent

    I don't think Clinton is the problem. (none / 0) (#235)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:17:04 AM EST
    But he isn't free to address the problems with further alienating Clinton supporters. It will require him to turn his attention away from the primary and towards the GE.

    Parent
    Unity while attacking. (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:30:53 AM EST
    You call for unity behind the nominee while you attack Clinton and her supporters as not being based in reality.

    That is EXACTLY the problem with Obama and his supporters.

    I got my registration changed today! Independents here I come! I have a feeling your rolls will be growing like crazy.

    Parent

    "many, if not all Dems" (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:08:29 AM EST
    you are dead wrong.
    and you comment makes me think you know very little about the democrats I know is rural america.
    they will never vote for Obama.
    if you think you can win without them I say give it a try.

    Parent
    Yes and No (none / 0) (#239)
    by Nadai on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:35:39 AM EST
    No doubt there are many Clinton supporters online who will not vote for the nominee because of the viciousness of some of the pro-Obama rhetoric on blogs.

    But many, if not all Dems who voted for Hillary will support the nominee.

    I see this argument a lot - that the Obama blogs won't drive off that many Hillary supporters.  I even agree with it, despite the fact that they're part of what's driven me off.

    What you seem to be missing is that most of the exit-polled Hillary supporters who say they won't vote for Obama aren't reading Obama blogs at all and have, therefore, come up with entirely other reasons not to vote for him.

    What those reasons are doesn't seem to interest Obama, his campaign, or his supporters.  Mostly it's just lumped under racism or stupidity and then dismissed, a reaction that utterly floors me.  How can Obama correct a problem he won't admit he has?

    Parent

    I think Bowers got swept away a little there. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Faust on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:57:39 AM EST
    He likes big sweeping ideas, and I don't think his speculations are obviously false, but I think there is a little bit too much sucking the helium out of the victory baloons on the Obama side right now.

    I have to say Obama himself has been quite good in the interviews he's given though (of the ones that I have seen). I think he understands the situtation better than his followers. Hopefully they will calm down a little and focus on the present instead of party shift that may or may not happen, (and may or may not be wise) several years from now.

    Full of himself (none / 0) (#47)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:00:32 AM EST
    is also a way to describe it.

    Parent
    will feel pretty normal to netroots types (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:57:45 AM EST
    as will losing I suppose.
    lucky thing there.

    So where do the CC people come from? (none / 0) (#44)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:00:00 AM EST
    Did they just parachute down from a  spaceship or something? Weren't they voting Democratic all along? Or were they apolitical, not voting. If so, you can bet your bottom dollar that, as soon as Obama can't deliver to them their utopian world, they will go right back to being too self-absorbed to vote in future elections. Creativity doesn't supplant human nature.

    And the bubbas have to go somewhere. McCain is wooing them as we speak.

    "bubbas have to go somewhere" (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:01:08 AM EST
    the definition of Bubba is broadening daily.

    Parent
    I didn't know that I, (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by madamab on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:04:00 AM EST
    a middle-income, Jewish, female, professional singer and web designer with a Master's degree, was both a Bubba and uncreative.

    Thank goodness I am not part of the Bowers Movement.

    Parent

    I am starting to find I perfer being a (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:06:16 AM EST
    Bubba.
    I am finding them far less obnoxious these days than the creatives.

    Parent
    we bubbas welcome you to our family (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by DandyTIger on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:28:24 AM EST
    Come one come all. We bubbas welcome you all. The new definition of a bubba is someone who cares about working class, poor, or are one of them. Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are classic examples of bubbas. We bubbas do not discriminate based on race, ethnicity, or religion. We had some members that had issues with that, but we sent them over to the Republican party. We keep the door open for them just in case they grow up. We're everyone, and we're cool with everyone. We are fine with eggheads and AA's of course. We even include lots and lots of eggheads and AAs.

    Maybe we should make a new party since we've been tossed out of the NDP. How about the bubba party (BP). :-)

    Parent

    no creatives allowed (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:31:04 AM EST
    maybe if they pay a penalty fee :-) n/t (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by DandyTIger on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:36:20 AM EST
    initiation (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:40:55 AM EST
    involving chicken wings and a bass boat.

    Parent
    Hah. (none / 0) (#224)
    by liminal on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:01:27 AM EST
    How about beans and cornbread at the volunteer fire department?

    Parent
    We can be (none / 0) (#208)
    by DJ on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:52:33 AM EST
    the Brand New Democratic Party

    Parent
    Creative class appeal (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:05:38 AM EST
    only works in urban areas with large numbers of professional liberal types.  I live in one such city.

    But take this message to the suburbs, rural areas, or just about anyplace that serves iceberg lettuce, and you will get your a$$ handed to you.

    To be fair, I love the creative class idea.  My father in law talks about the "creative class" every time he comes to visit.  And there are some nice, livable, progressive cities that are full of these peole.  But we need to keep it in perspective.

    Parent

    Leaders (none / 0) (#70)
    by nellre on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:06:00 AM EST
    It's cool to have great leaders.
    But who do they lead if they won't let those to be led in the club?

    It isn't that West Virginia doesn't count (none / 0) (#119)
    by AdamSmithsHand on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:24:11 AM EST
    It does, just like any other state.  But there are not enough delegates at stake to change the complexity of the race - and we are way past the point where "momentum" matters.

    Bottom line.

    So, you're a bridge between Obama and (none / 0) (#121)
    by digdugboy on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:24:24 AM EST
    Clinton supporters?

    But West Virginia is a state that does not count to the Obama Movement. It has those white working class voters that the Creative Class is trying to purge from the Party

    Sure you are.

    West Virginia is illustrative (none / 0) (#135)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:27:59 AM EST
    of Obama's shortfall.

    He probably doesn't care one way or another about the state. He never would expect to win it in November.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#129)
    by Jgarza on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:26:52 AM EST
    there have been a lot of people that think democrats need to shift away from southern democrats, and start trying to appeal to western democrats, in an attempt to isolate the republicans in the deep south.  

    Obama is a good candidate to do that, he just needs to be careful and make sure he is working hard to keep voters in rust belt states.

    As for your obsession with these kind of guilt by association stuff, the folks at open left have hardly been die hard Obama supporters, in fact they have gone after him a few times, they may have ended up in his camp, but melon scaif ended up in Hillary's no one qoutes him as being a signal of Obama supporters.

    BTD is trying to make a narrative, intended to keep his talklefts die hard Clinton supporters disgruntled at every step.  Keep the anti unity message up.

    Western Democrats? (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by Salo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:30:54 AM EST
    lol. Got to see it to believe it.

    There's no hostorical model for it.  They are libertarians, and are economically incompatable with the Foundry States.

    Parent

    that's what worries me. (none / 0) (#228)
    by liminal on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:03:20 AM EST
    The shift from the New Deal coalition to the squirrely libertarian contingency.  I think it means the final nail in the coffin for truly universal health care.

    Parent
    BTD and Krugman (none / 0) (#217)
    by Manuel on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:57:19 AM EST
    are providing great ideas to Obama on the actions he should take to begin to unify the party?  What do you think Obama should do for unity?  Please be specific.

    Parent
    Yes, And (none / 0) (#133)
    by Rhouse on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:27:43 AM EST
    she would be a big problem, except she doesn't respond to e-mail by blowing people off.  For the most part Ms. Ferraro  has stayed out of the lime-light and doesn't go out of her way to insult the regular party members who ask her a question.  Donna B. seems to be in the news or blogs every other day pissing off female Democratic voters.  And as to why I care:
    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right."
    Carl Schurz - U.S. Senator 1/17/1872



    Were you equally offended (5.00 / 2) (#189)
    by Lil on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:44:31 AM EST
    when folks said Hillary got where she is today because her husband messed around? Did you stick up for her? Did you decry those misogynistic statements?

    Parent
    Were you offended when Obama (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by rooge04 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:47:54 AM EST
    did not denounce his pastor Wright as he humped the pulpit and said that Bill had "done black people the same way he'd done Monica Lewinsky?" Because Obama only denounced him when he became a liability. Before that he was fine with that line of attack.

    Were you offended? Were you outraged?

    Parent

    Excuses and Denials? (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by flashman on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:53:37 AM EST
    Hillary said she rejects, renounces and repuidates.  She cut off her ties w/Ferraro.  She totally disagrees with the statements.  What more CAN she do?

    Parent
    Donna B. (none / 0) (#161)
    by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:35:21 AM EST
    has been a drag on the party for far too long IMO.  

    Parent
    I'll be very happy with that. (none / 0) (#187)
    by Fabian on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:43:45 AM EST
    Actually.

    Pushing the Bubbas away right into the arms of (none / 0) (#207)
    by andrelee on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:52:12 AM EST
    the Republicans who are usually paying attention, looking for any and all opportunities to exploit for power enhancing victories, is creative but not smart for the health of the Dem Party. Who will they call on to rescue the old bubba democrats from their creative superiors. I'm not sure because I'm not up on Repub. leaders and potential candidates but I've heard of/about Charlie Christ, Jeb the younger, and even heard a little bit about Jeb junior, an attractive,  smart, hispanic, catholic, Repub. Who knows. The point being is if there are only two viable parties, why kick folks to the curb who were loyal to your party and give the opposition a clear chance to swoop them up. If these folks like me left because of a feeling that we're no longer welcomed, our concerns don't matter except at election time, or my concerns are a burden to the success of the party-policies are enacted that leave me by the wayside, then it would take some hellified  change for me to even think about coming back. Remember, GW came in with the 'Change','Unity', 'anti-Washington', 'I'm the pres. you can have a beer with' 'movement'. It was appealing enough that it worked twice. It sure as hell can work again. Even more-so if Obama wins and his executive abilities  and administrative acumen is on par with Axelrod's (only?) other success, Deval Patrick in Mass. That's creative, but definitely not smart.
     

    figures from Bowers (none / 0) (#230)
    by pluege on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:05:58 AM EST
    Cultural Shift:

    wow, just wow. That is so emblematic of the "creative class" such as Bowers and his ilk to be crowing about exorcising from the democratic party the very people - THE LOWER CLASS, POOR AND DISADVANTAGED, which is exactly where "the Bubbas" roam - that the creative class think so highly of themselves for helping out.

    These people are flat out self-infatuated jerks. They're goal is not to help anyone but themselves by replacing the old plutocrats with the new plutocrats, i.e., themselves.

    Read commenter somewhere on calls to WV voters- (none / 0) (#232)
    by jawbone on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:11:01 AM EST
    MCM announcements that Hillary can't win, that the race is over, that Obama has won are having an effect. Voters saying their votes won't matter, etc., so why go to vote?

    Which is exactly what the MCMers (NBC and its spawn, in particular) want. Depress voter turnour, dampen enthusiam, dry up her donations from small donors. Hold down popular vote totals.

    Edwards was too openly populist, Hillary too...populist?  And Obama is just right?

    Now, more than ever, I'm worried that we do not know what an Obama administration will do. What are his goals beyond hope, change, fixing things (which things, how, whose solutions???).

    How can he still be shrouded in such mystery?

    When did "creative class" get invented? (none / 0) (#236)
    by Addison on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:19:53 AM EST
    Was it within the past couple months? Or was it some Newsweek invention over the past two years that I missed. I have seriously never heard of it before and it just sounds like "Liberal, tech-inclined, white-collar" person to me. It sounds like a media invention as a category, and I'm not sure I understand the point of it except to help the GOP reinforce a new, derisive umbrella term for "Liberal."

    The idea the Obama-supporting Bowers, et al, would ever use it, or that Clinton supporters on blogs would talk about it as if they weren't mostly "members" themselves -- irritates and confuses me. Which is why I ask for the context of its creation.

    Ambiguity is not a credible platform (none / 0) (#237)
    by kimsaw on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:23:27 AM EST
     Obama has crafted a campaign in which he claims to be a unifier by loving the right, left and in betweens. Yet the far left- creative class- however you want to define them (there's also subclasses within such divisions)are as cloudy as Obama's public persona. Now he's the the new god of PIRG while he channels Reagan. He caresses Wall Street, yet berates them, he takes their money but claims he does not. He's not the DLC yet he is, he's MoveOn, yet he's not.

    He's transcendent alright at bamboozling speed.  It's like Obama's playing to everything and the creative class is just whispering to each other that it's all part of the plan.  The creative class is disingenuous and devoid of common sense. They are in love with the image of Obama, an image they see as themselves. It's called self-interest, not a real unifying message. They do not understand the reality of life on the ground for average Americans and obviously hold the working middle class in contempt as well politically useless.  The creative class members are entrenched in a movement full of contradictions without foundation and it is propagated by a bait and switch leadership style. They languish in Obama's ambiguity. Substance to Obama seems almost a nuisance, only dealt with when needed, like bowling. Ambiguity is Obama's substance.  

    Unity is an admirable goal. Can the creative class clarify how it is achieved as it relates to the issues? How do we compromise on core principles? Exactly what are their core values? Is unity the avoidance of divisive issues which is analogous to voting present? Is voting present the embodiment of effective leadership? Can the Creatives define what a purple America looks like. What are its core values? It has got to be more than can't we all just get a long. Pick an issue make it purple- abortion, school prayer, or war, tell us how to reach a compromise?

    Until the Creatives can come up with less rhetoric and more concretes, this qualified eligible is sticking with the Bubbas. At least we can go bowling.

    It's a term that was invented by (none / 0) (#238)
    by eric on Fri May 09, 2008 at 11:28:05 AM EST
    Dr. Richard Florida.  Wiki link HERE

    Obama supporters tearing this party apart (none / 0) (#240)
    by ADC406 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:14:12 PM EST
    It is the Obama supporters dividing the party.  I'm democratic all the way, however, it's the supporters that are turning me off and I might just as well as not vote this November if he is on the ticket.  I refuse to vote McCain but I'm starting to feel these agressive radical supporters.  Why does Obama attract radicalism?  We all know about the 20 years of sermons he wasn't forced to hearing but these supporters are unbelievable.  While I'm supporting Hillary by volunteering visibility in KY, I get both of my Hillary signs stolen out of my yard.  Another supporter had her car covered with Obama stickers to the point she had to take it to the body shop to get them removed.  I'm not talking about 10 stickers, I'm talking about 100s of stickers.  How sad is it that they are dividing the party.  We get a lot of honks but we do receive the f bomb, and one girl had a white guy gesturing to her like he was shooting a gun.  We get some fingers and of course the campaign headquarters were trashed.  Do we think it's McCain supporters?  Not when they carry an Obama 08 sticker on their car or yell out his name to us with F Hillary.  This is worse than the Bush / Kerry election.  I' m just amazed how Obama supporters can tear this party apart.