home

What's Next for the Hillary Haters?

I'm not into post-mortems and haven't and won't be writing any about Hillary's campaign. As I said Saturday, I'm moving forward, just like she asked us to. But I like this part of Richard Cohen's column today in the Washington Post and thought I'd share it:

I often had more problems with her critics than I did with her. Some of them, clearly, needed to be medicated.

Now, though, an eerie silence has settled over the land. With Hillary Clinton out of the race, thousands of computer keyboards have been stilled, dozens of books have been abandoned in mid-chapter, and enormously influential bloggers, most of them unknown to me, have vanished from the Web. Some anti-Hillary obsessives (see the latest Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) must be feeling the sickening vertigo once experienced by Vaughn Meader, whose entire show business career was based on impersonating John F. Kennedy and who, in essence, died when Kennedy did.

It's over, ladies and gentlemen. Hillary Clinton lost. And so did you.

The hateful attacks that have appeared in comments at TalkLeft have slowed down. My intolerance for those who continue to post them has risen. I'm erasing these users rather than deleting their comments one by one. Life is too short to be consumed by irrational hate.

(Comments now closed.)

< Changing Times | Faith to Play Big Role at Democratic Convention >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Wow. Vaporized. Yeah. (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 01:44:12 PM EST


    Jeralyn (5.00 / 23) (#2)
    by suki on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 01:46:46 PM EST
    I want to thank you again for the moderation here.
    I can't imagine the time it must take you, but I appreciate it very much.

    It was unimaginable (5.00 / 21) (#7)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 01:56:22 PM EST
    how much time it took, probably 2 to 3 hours a day. Every day for the past few months.  That's time I so much rather would have spent writing -- or just living. I am so done spending five and six hour stretches at the computer....

    We also now have a fair-minded comment moderator who has been exceptional. S/he can delete comments and also makes recommendations to me as to who should be banned. If I agree, they are banned or gone. S/he has also cleaned up older threads deleting comments I missed with hateful or obscene language.

    Thank you for appreciating it.

    Parent

    They'll find something else to hate. (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Artoo on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 01:52:43 PM EST
    People who hate irrationally will continue to do so. They'll just find a new target.

    welcome to the light (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 01:53:13 PM EST
    Richard.  took you long enough.

    Huh? (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 01:55:24 PM EST
    hasent Richard Cohen (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:24:47 PM EST
    been pretty hatefull for most of this campaign season.
    particularly to Hillary, or am I thinking of someone else.


    Parent
    Yes, he has (5.00 / 3) (#216)
    by Andy08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:29:25 PM EST
    contributed his fair share of Hillary bashing. Ugh...

    I don't believe any of these guys sudden "enlightenment" ...

    Maybe the WasPo has seen their reading rolls decline....  

    Parent

    No idea. I thought maybe (none / 0) (#82)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:35:34 PM EST
    you were quoting Star Wars!

    Parent
    It's not just the hate - though those are the (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by scribe on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 01:59:13 PM EST
    most prominent examples.

    The haters were the outriders on a wave of media-driven, media-generated and media-responsive audience participation.  The silence you hear is (a) the sound the voices of the crowd (among them the haters) being still while waiting to be told the next chant to chant and (b) the media trying to figure out what the next chant will be.

    It's like at a ballgame, where every now and again a silent moment will open up.  The alert (loudmouthed and inclined-to-rabblerousing) fan can seize that moment with a quick one-liner and change the whole tenor of the crowd's reaction to the game, at least for an inning or two.

    So, this silence is the opportunity to set in motion the narrative against McCain.

    Or Obama.

    Depending on who grabs first and most effectively.

    The analogy (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by eric on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:04:14 PM EST
    to spectator sports is a good one.  I just wonder how long these people will stick around waiting for more action before getting bored.  Time to move on to the next fad...

    Look, over there....the new iPhone!

    Parent

    Wouldn't it be nice if someone with (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:14:12 PM EST
    a positive message grabbed the initiative, intead of someone just hating on the opponent?

    Oddly enough I once had hopes we could have a positive campaign this year.

    Parent

    Note, Hillary 2012 is a big Obama fan (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:02:24 PM EST
    who has been handing out 1's to Hillary supporters like candy. His/her nasty comment was intended to tar Hillary supporters by association.

    I hate that tactic. (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by eleanora on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:15:52 PM EST
    I'd never dream of going to another site and pretending to be an Obama supporter just to troll. What on earth does that prove and who does it help? Just disgusting, probably Republican astroturfers trying to put us off voting for anyone at all >:(

    Parent
    Pitiful confession (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Eleanor A on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:38:17 PM EST
    What's an "astroturfer"?  I missed the meme on this one....

    Parent
    astroturfing... (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by kredwyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:42:40 PM EST
    description can be found here.

    Parent
    Astroturfing.. (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by JustJennifer on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:43:20 PM EST
    is an organized, planned action that is meant to look like it's a grassroots type of thing.  It's used quite often when describing the Obama campaign.  LOL

    Parent
    Thought this might fit into this (none / 0) (#166)
    by zfran on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:03:07 PM EST
    discussion, I believe they're doing it on the phone calls for money as well.

    Obama on the internet

    Parent

    Astroturfing (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by eleanora on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:49:47 PM EST
    is when a group hires people to run around promoting a product while pretending to be regular people who just "discovered" it. You used to see it a lot on forums and webboards in the 90s, when a bunch of new posters would show up and loudly praise a new movie, tv show, shampoo or whatever. Over and over and over again, on lots of different websites, and all using the same wording or linking to the same sites. Drove me crazy when I started modding on LJ in 2002, delete delete delete, arrgh. Part of why many sites require log-ins now.

    The Republicans are classically good at astroturfing in real life, and I always suspect anyone going way over the top against Dems on the Internets is getting paid by the word. :)

    Astroturf-wiki

    Parent

    vaporized (5.00 / 8) (#56)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:22:20 PM EST
    including his comment ratings.

    Parent
    Concentrated and widespread effort (5.00 / 4) (#228)
    by Andy08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:35:12 PM EST
    through the blog-sphere.   They steal usernames as well and post  simultaneous and coordinated messages from a known Hillary supporter stating a "sudden change of heart seen the light for Obama" etc etc etc. It is pathetic. But make no mistake it is infesting every site that was (or is)  supporting HRC.

    Parent
    It seemed to me that the Obama haters (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by digdugboy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:03:16 PM EST
    always far outnumbered the Hillary haters. FWIW, I never was a hater of either. I would have happily voted for Hillary had she won the nomination.

    I'm glad to see that the comments that rant about Obama are being deleted now too.

    As noted in a recent diary on MyDD, there could be as many as six Supremes appointed in the next eight years. The youngest members of the court are Alito, Roberts and Thomas. We can't afford any more Republican appointments at this point, and this goes way beyond Roe v. Wade.

    What planet are you from??? (5.00 / 9) (#17)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:05:23 PM EST
    Lots of people here don't care for Obama's politics, but the hate is nothing like what was directed at Hillary. I think NoQuarter is a site whose comments are similar in tone to the front page and recommended diarists at DK, a site with millions more page views.

    Parent
    True (5.00 / 6) (#34)
    by eric on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:12:32 PM EST
    it's the tone of the comments that were different.  The anti-Hillary comments trended toward personal attacks, sexist language, and generally unwelcome nastiness.  As I've said many times, many commentors didn't seem to even understand the acceptable bounds of political discourse.

    Also, there is no question about the volume...there were literally LEGIONS of anti-Clinton forces out there with talking points to spread around far and wide.

    Parent

    Well, people could not distinguish (5.00 / 7) (#40)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:14:43 PM EST
    between political judgments such as "Obama is not qualified to be President", and  references to Monica L., etc.

    Parent
    i assume he was referring to this site (none / 0) (#63)
    by tben on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:25:25 PM EST
    not to the blog world in general

    On this site, Obama haters took over. Although the front pagers were restrained, the comment section became one long antiObama rant that went on for months.

    Maybe people felt that they had a right to act that way because they were being treated that way elsewhere, but all they did was sink to the same low level.

    Parent

    People didn't like his politics and didn't (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:26:57 PM EST
    trust him. That is a very far cry from what happened to Hillary.

    Parent
    Not true (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:44:22 PM EST
    People having a criticism of Obama found a moderated space in which to voice it and discuss it respectfully.

    Parent
    Hmmm. Overly-generous. (3.50 / 2) (#118)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:48:05 PM EST
    To who, to what? (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:51:06 PM EST
    to the site.....to respectful?  There wasn't any other place on the net where someone could support Hillary Clinton and talk nitty gritty about the issues and not be totally wailed on for it.  Because of that dynamic the site became very pro-Hillary.  It was need based.

    Parent
    My perception: some of the comments (none / 0) (#152)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:58:40 PM EST
    about Obama and Michelle have gone beyond respectful disagreement.

    Parent
    Could be (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:02:44 PM EST
    I tend to write off things over the top as someone blowing off a little steam, and if something like that was posted I tend to ignore it.  I have my fave commenters here that I tend to be drawn to and read most of their posts because they are often balanced and knowledgeable and make observations I often miss.  I probably selectively missed a lot of over the top.

    Parent
    How many times was Obama called a liar (1.00 / 2) (#232)
    by digdugboy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:38:57 PM EST
    with absolutely no evidence in support on issues concerning Wright and Rezko?

    tben is right. The comments section of almost every front page article was one long diatribe against Obama. This went on for months. Anybody who opposed it was a "chatterer" and was silenced.

    Parent

    For comparison, I think saying that (4.42 / 7) (#72)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:29:34 PM EST
    Hillary is a warmonger is a very strong attack (which I disagree with) which is NOT an example of CDS. A comparable criticism of Obama is that he could not be trusted on Social Security. Obama supporters would not agree with that criticism, but it was not an expression of irrational hatred---it was grounded in real world data.

    Parent
    Word (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by Laertes on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:58:20 PM EST
    Yeah, I was bitterly disappointed when Obama adopted Republican talking points about Social Security.  That is, in my view, one of the biggest mistakes he's made so far.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:06:14 PM EST
    Let's hope that the Dems in the Senate actually do their job and block unacceptable nominees.

    Parent
    Which side had more haters? (none / 0) (#113)
    by Laertes on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:44:50 PM EST
    It's really quite simple.  People who enjoy poking at the other side will mostly hang out at the other side's blogs.

    So if you mostly hang out at Pro-Hillary blogs, most of the haters you see are going to be Anti-Hillary.

    So yeah, the Clinton supporters think that there were more Clinton-haters, and the Obama supporters think there were more Obama-haters.  Given where each was likely to hang out, they're both right.

    Parent

    I wandered away from dkos (4.00 / 2) (#215)
    by kredwyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:28:15 PM EST
    cause the hate language that was being bandied back and forth and the conversation would be spiraled down into a weird, nasty version of moms and combat boots.

    Though...I will say that the HRC haters seemed to out number the Obama haters...there were just more of them.

    Parent

    But the real question is, can you (5.00 / 19) (#19)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:06:08 PM EST
    do anything about Richard Cohen, who didn't have much nice to say about Hillary, but seems to have conveniently forgotten his own contributions were not as high-minded as he thinks they were?   Perhaps he is projecting his own wistful longing for Hillary-as-target onto those other people.

    I would like to think that this part of his piece was pure snark, but I'm not so sure:

    As for me, I too have been critical of Clinton. My columns, of course, were a model of rational thought and cool analysis, and were based entirely on the issues, such as they were. For a number of reasons, I did not think she should be the Democratic nominee, but I often had more problems with her critics than I did with her. Some of them, clearly, needed to be medicated.

    Even with his minimally self-deprecating disclosure, if Cohen's op-ed came with Scratch-N-Sniff, the smell of hypocrisy would make your eyes water.


    who will be the first to step (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:23:20 PM EST
    forward and say "I was the irrational one"?

    Parent
    I'll step forward... (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by dianem on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:01:10 PM EST
    ...to admit that I reacted to hostility with hostility. I don't think I'm irrational, but I recognize that I am biased. At least part of my hostility toward Obama is an irrational dislike of him because I simply don't trust "movements", and I see a number of his follower's (not all, but a significant number) as being members of a personality cult.

    I find myself diminishing his accomplishments, although there are valid reasons for some of that, not all. I

    At the same time, I try to counter my biases with reasons. I may not feel that Obama is charismatic (I've watched him, he doesn't thrill me), but I recognize that he is because millions think so (isn't that the defnition of charisma?). I have learned that he is quite intelligent. He has participated in community service, and appears to have a basically good character. These factors are not enough to overcome my doubts, but at least I recognize that he is a multi-dimensional person and understand why he appeals to so many people. I do not believe that all Obama supporter's are blind cult followers or fools.

    Parent

    He Is An Idiot In General (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:35:53 PM EST
    Not that I read him much, but when I have it has been poor.

    Parent
    Hopefully (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:06:11 PM EST
    Hopefully they will now focus their energy on getting as many good Democrat's elected in November. If we're lucky we might even end up with a few that have the spine to stand up even if it's not the easier route. The Congress we have right now disgusts me.

    Here's what I hope happens to them (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Mickeleh on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:06:16 PM EST
    What I hope happens to the Hillary haters is two-fold.

    First, they should acknowledge that many members of the media attacked her with mockery and gender stereotypes that are cruel, nasty, and shameful.

    Second I hope what happens to them is pretty much the same thing I hope happens to the Obama haters. They should both stop hating. Both camps should recognize that, while they differ passionately on who should be the Democratic nominee, they both are both fighting or very similar agendas.

    I will never firget (5.00 / 6) (#67)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:27:41 PM EST
    obama hate, to the extent it exists, was reactive TO Clinton hate.

    Let's not pretend anyone started out hating obama.

    Parent

    Yeah.. (5.00 / 6) (#77)
    by JustJennifer on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:32:04 PM EST
    I agree.  I don't think anyone hated Obama until the campaign became about beating Hillary and not winning an election.  

    Parent
    Think first! (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by sociallybanned on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:25:59 PM EST
    There are no Obama haters, unless you are republican. Hillary supporters dislike Obama supporters for their nastiness.  Obama supporters take our honesty about Obama as hate.  It's not.  It's like turning away a fresh out of college kid, that doesn't have any experience mangaging 5 ppl under them , let alone a country.  It's natural rejection due to experience.  Even though, Obama supporters wish it were about racism, logic and bitterness, but it clearly isn't.  It's like a child being told, no more candy on Halloween night when they have a full bag of it sitting in front of them.  

    Parent
    It's over but I need some answers please (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by Saul on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:06:23 PM EST
    What were the final totals?  Please fill in the blanks for both sides Hilary, and Obama in the following categories:

    Popular Vote Count

    Delegate Count (No Supers)

    Super Delegate Count

    Also am I correct to say that the Super sand not the regular delegates ended up choosing the Dem nominee?

    Thanks!

    The popular vote ... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by eustiscg on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:14:43 PM EST
    is, of course, very contentious.  Here's a nifty Excel sheet that allows you to explore all 972 ways of counting it.  (It was originally posted pre-Montana/SD, so you may need to add those in by hand.)

    Parent
    Superdelegates (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by eleanora on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:20:41 PM EST
    definitely ended up choosing the nominee by swinging to Obama between May 31-June 3. But we all knew that's how the nom would be decided, becaues neither could possibly get enough pledged delegates to swing it on their own.

    I understand some people have been spreading rumors that Hillary has released her pledged delegates to Obama, which she hasn't. Just in time for the state conventions, so the final count probably won't reflect the actual primary results. Sad, really, reminds me of 2000.

    Parent

    Its not that simple (5.00 / 5) (#57)
    by CST on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:22:26 PM EST
    Unfortunately, given the rediculously idiodic nature of the democratic primary system, none of those answers are straightforward.

    Popular Vote - There are many different ways of counting this number.  Do you include caucus states where there was also a primary?  Do you include caucus states where no vote totals were released?  Do you include Michigan where Obama's name wasn't on the ballot?  If so, do you give him the uncommited or some share of the uncommited?  For many different answers, see realclearpolitics.com or the many posts here debating the issue.

    Delegate Count - A little more straightforward, except what do you do with Edward's delegates and what about Hillary's pledged delegate who switched?  Realclearpolitics gives Obama 1766.5 and Clinton 1639.5

    Superdelegates - As far as I am aware, not all of them have even declared yet, and a number of Hillary's switched after she dropped out.

    Finally, the superdelegates did decide the nominee, although they decided in favor of Obama who was ahead in pledged delegates.  The supers just put him over the top to clinch.

    Parent

    Funny coming from Richard Cohen, (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by nulee on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:09:55 PM EST
    while I would not call him a hater, and don't have the examples at my fingertips, I don't think he can be remotely credited with having a grip on the sexism in the election.

    What's next? (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:12:51 PM EST
    I suppose the focus will be on McCain the Hun.

    There hasn't been much to crow about when you look at Obama's actions and statements over these last few years.

    So, I guess we'll just have to go after McCain.

    The mainstream media won't chime in though.
    They're as much stuck on McCain as they have been on Obama.

    It doesn't look as if ending the war in Iraq is of much concern to anybody.

    What a country.

    What's next for the Hillary haters? (5.00 / 6) (#36)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:14:07 PM EST
    The ones on the loonosphere have already said that if he doesn't win the election, her career is ruined.....

    If it were any other politician, I'd worry, but we're talking about Hillary, not Kerry.

    I don't understand this (5.00 / 7) (#73)
    by dianem on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:30:13 PM EST
    Obama is the candidate. It's his job to rally the troops, not her's. I don't understand why she should be responsible for whether he wins or loses.

    Actually, that isn't true. I've been browsing Daily Kos, trying to understand what happened. It is amazing. It seems to be taken more or less for granted there that all of the nasty accusations about Clinton running a racist, divisive campaign are completely true. They even buy the "assasination" meme, even though even the supporter's say that she didn't actually say anything wrong - but they just know that she meant that she hoped that Obama would be assassinated.

    Parent

    The malaise (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:15:46 PM EST
    of 0 tolerance for crticism (of almost any kind) for the favored candidate while assuning all kinds of lisence in making attacks on the rival candidate has been going on for a while now.

    And the "hate" (5.00 / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:23:33 PM EST
    is almost always rationalized as being in responce to, or reaction to, PERCIEVED hate.

    If you're the percieved recipient, it's "hate", if you're the purveyer it's "outrage" and "indignation".

    Parent

    This primary caused (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by Electa on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:19:41 PM EST
    entirely too much divide and ill feelings on both sides.  I just we can put the anger behind us and do what's best for the party and the country.  Let the healing begin with me, if I offended any of Hillary's supporters, pls. accept my sincere apologies.  I personally experiences from friends and family how deep the emotions ran.  Although, I supported Barack, I didn't support his blunders and was blind sighted to the extent that Barack could do no wrong and even when Hillary was right or her policies were more favorable to me than Barack's, many close to me would get angry at me.  For instance his small town peoples remark pissed me off because I lived in a small town for 13 years and it was the best quality of life I've had.

    As a fellow commentor remarked the potential SCOTUS vacancies are far more important and too crucial to have a republican get into office.

    It's time for a truce.

    I'm all for supporting my country (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:49:54 PM EST
    And to do so, I don't support the Democratic Party.

    Parent
    HuffPo (5.00 / 11) (#48)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:20:07 PM EST
    I went from reading HuffPo several times daily to never looking at it. It really went into the basement.

    I don't think I'll ever look at it again.

    I'm sure that many read it, but I have wondered how many people might have been similarly revolted.

    huff po (5.00 / 12) (#93)
    by sarahfdavis on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:38:23 PM EST
    kos, america blog, tpm - all hate swamps. that hatred will eventually eat them alive. it's been quite the wake up call for me.
    i now see how the R's see us - hateful hypocrites. I also understand their feelings about the media. Our own party is not very progressive at all.

    Parent
    wehn I used to hang at Americablog (5.00 / 0) (#158)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:59:48 PM EST
    there would be hundreds of comments in every thread.
    it is now down to tens.
    it doesnt look like the traffic has dropped as much but the comments have died.  its always the same five or six angry people.


    Parent
    Took a broom and swept my bookmarks clean (5.00 / 2) (#218)
    by Ellie on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:29:51 PM EST
    Bah. Don't need the clutter on my browser or in my head.

    The sites I kept have commentary I enjoy reading regardless of which "side" it's on. I like strong voices, diverse subjects but specialty in a fascinating area is a bonus, wit.

    Long walks in the rain, brunch and lazy Sunday afternoons ...

    Parent

    Cheap Progressivism (none / 0) (#212)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:25:32 PM EST
    Well if people can take this atheist quoting Bonhoeffer's description of cheap grace:

    Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything, they say, and so everything can remain as it was before. 'All for sin could not atone.' The world goes on in the same old way, and we are still sinners 'even in the best life' as Luther said. Well, then, let the Christian live like the rest of the world, let him model himself on the world's standards in every sphere of life, and not presumptuously aspire to live a different life under grace from his old life under sin.

    I can't help but notice the similarity to the cheap progressivism practiced by so many this primary season.

    Parent

    HuffPo, it makes me see red (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by zyx on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:53:07 PM EST
    that HuffPo articles appear on the GoogleNews page.

    What is THAT all about??

    Parent

    'Breaking news and opinion' -- HUH??? (5.00 / 2) (#225)
    by Ellie on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:33:35 PM EST
    An opinion so important, we interrupt this continual coverage of the end of the earth upon the impending meteor crash ...

    Arianna: and hov'bout that suit Hillary was wearing was all wrong.

    Parent

    HuffPo (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by noholib on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:53:53 PM EST
    I too was revolted.  I also dropped HuffPo cold turkey some months ago ... same for DailyKos; and of course, MSNBC and most other political coverage on television in fact.  I don't think NPR distinguished itself either in radio, though it's not usually quite as bad as the others.
    Hey, re: blogs, does anyone know if it's safe to sneak a look again at buzzflash, truthout, or commondreams?  Frankly, I've been afraid to look for a long time.  
    I'm also not rushing back to some of my regular liberal-left magazines that I used to read regularly.


    Parent
    I won't go to Huffpo, Americablog, TPM, (5.00 / 6) (#143)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:56:20 PM EST
    Dailykos, Atrios anymore. That's a partial list.


    Parent
    I can't give up (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by eric on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:13:49 PM EST
    Atrios no matter how hard I try.  He wasn't a hardcore Kool-aid drinker, so I didn't get nearly as repulsed.  The other sites named are also off my list.  TPM will be the most missed.

    Parent
    truthfully I hadn't been reading atrios (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:15:15 PM EST
    much anyway.
    I think the times have passed him by.
    Only digby still seems relevant to me, out of the original crop of bloggers.
    Atrios was very good at his best though.


    Parent
    Digby is the cream of the crop (5.00 / 3) (#237)
    by shoephone on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:45:23 PM EST
    thanks for tip (none / 0) (#244)
    by noholib on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 04:05:46 PM EST
    OK, Palomino, thanks for answering ... good to know that I should maintain my distance !

    Parent
    Me, for certain (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:09:44 PM EST
    In the beginning it was pro-Obama with only an occasional pro-Clinton bit showing up.  I could handle that, as I generally like to read a lot of different opinions.

    Then I noticed all the pro-Obama opinions were all the same -- He's so awesome!  He can draw a big crowd!  He can draw a really big crowd!.  That was boring.

    But then the comments turned nasty and vitriolic.  Not just rude or annoying.  But something really dark and scary had been tapped.  When the threats to riot in Denver if Hillary 'stole' the election (this was before she won Ohio) started, I was outta there.

    Ironically, I'm still not sure what I was disgusted by more -- the fact that threats to riot were made, or that I suspect that the threatmakers were too cowardly to actually carry them through.

    Parent

    Unity (5.00 / 7) (#49)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:20:15 PM EST
    If the Obama wing of the party has room for the Evangelical's, surely there should be a small corner someplace for those that admired the Clinton's for their positive contributions to the party and country. He needs to finally lead and insist that his followers get with the unity program. They're delusional if they think they can win with a fractured base.

    Their irrational hate (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:20:30 PM EST
    is rational in their eyes because they have the likes of HuffPo, DK, Americablog....the list is pretty long, that "validates" their "rational" behavior.

    I liken this to what we call in the south "home training".  The posters who post comments that are vitriolic don't have any "home training" because they don't know any better.  They think that what is acceptable in their trailer park is acceptable at the mall.

    No home training.  

    Authoritarianism (5.00 / 7) (#104)
    by dianem on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:42:08 PM EST
    I've been studying this phenomenon for a while now, after I first read about it on Orcinus. The entire right-wing movements is based on authoritarianism. They believe because their friends and families believe, and they reject anybody who doesn't believe, thus ensuring that their belief system is not challenged. They choose leaders who reinforce their biases, and then accept new ideas, sometimes contradictory, that reflect the views of their leaders. They have no trouble holding differing views in their minds at the same time.

    I'm seeing the same pattern among Progressives. Actually, I've seen it for quite a while, but it is becoming more obvious. It's not that the large blogs cause this kind of thinking - it's more that people who are inclined to authoritarian thinking are drawn to echo chambers, where their views will not be challenged. They don't want to even try to see the other side. People who are not prone to authoritarianism will be repelled by this and tend to leave the site, except for a few contrarian souls who don't mind getting beat up a lot.

    Parent

    Maybe a little OT (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Blogblah on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:23:46 PM EST
    Even as an Obama supporter, I "lurked" over here for months precisely because I wasn't happy about being subjected to the misogyny I was reading.

    It occurs to me, though, that the blogosphere is a very special place in many ways and that the Law of Unintended Consequence is an "Iron Law."

    What I mean by that is that the 'net is dominated, in terms of numbers, by males and often younger males, and that the vast majority of them, even the ones who are politically active, use the 'net for porn sometimes or often.

    Most of those guys see dipping their feet into the porn outlets as basically harmless.  

    To me, however, it seems likely that there's a carryover from the objectification of women on the porn sites and the misogyny we all saw in the campaign.

    I'm busy practicing law in Oklahoma, but I'd sure like to be able to test that theory.  Anybody got grant money?

    Thanks, Jeralyn, for this site and your hard work.

    UGH!! (5.00 / 5) (#75)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:31:03 PM EST
    What a nasty comment.
    Is this the kind of vindictive gloating and middle school level snideness we can expect from Obama supporters now?

    Remember that 1Jane is working for McCain (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:39:55 PM EST
    whether she knows it or not. It's comments like hers that take people who are on the fence off of it. She's trying to keep the rift open.

    Parent
    Well, if she is the commenter I (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:51:11 PM EST
    am thinking of, she works for the insurance industry and spreads misinformation which supports Obama's plan.

    Parent
    Yes they all do it (none / 0) (#164)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:02:43 PM EST
    For the record, my cult days are over and I only ever supported Obama because he was looking like he was going to be the nominee.

    Quite talking like you're speaking to a whole movement when you're talking to one person.

    Hooray for OUR side.

    Parent

    that comment has been deleted (none / 0) (#185)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:11:27 PM EST
    for insults

    Parent
    It's still there (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by dianem on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:35:12 PM EST
    It was overwhelmed by "everybody be nice so that Clinton supporter's can heal and recover from their bitterness" for a bit, but it seems to be returning with a vengeance. I don't think this is over. Initially, Clinton supporter's were welcomed back, but the presumtion seems to be that they are only welcome as long as they join the Obama chorus. Saying that you will vote for him in spite of your misgivings is not enough. You have to believe. There are still some trying to counter this, but they seem to be outnumbered the same way the rational Obama supporter's were outnumbered by the fanatics during the primary.

    Stalin's Cult of Personality (5.00 / 5) (#189)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:13:47 PM EST
    And Mao's.

    It's not enough to just not criticize, or even to praise.  You must praise loudly enough and relentlessly enough and enthusiastically enough.

    At least DKos and ilk can only virtually annhilate the sane, rather than disappear them in the middle of the night or send them to the gulag.

    Not that I think virtual annhilation is any picnic, but hey, I'm trying to be positive.

    Parent

    For one thing (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:35:44 PM EST
    We're talking about two different people - Hillary and Obama. What is true and a valid criticism of one is not necessarily a true and valid criticism of the  other.

    are you going to (none / 0) (#89)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:37:31 PM EST
    tell me what the definition of obscene is next?

    Parent
    True On An Abstract Level But (none / 0) (#122)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:49:06 PM EST
    Utter BS in terms of Jlivingston's comment and what goes on here by some. A few of the most ardent Hillary supporters take regular license to trash Obama, and from my point of view it is exactly like the irrational Hillary hate many claim to have escaped from Obama blogs.

    It must be a reptilian part of the brain that gets activated in a small minority of the population, much like those who hate the Yankees with a passion but loooove the Mets regardless of how well or poorly they are playing.

    Parent

    So address those when you encounter them (5.00 / 6) (#167)
    by Ellie on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:03:58 PM EST
    Or don't. [/meh]

    This basis for spreading around "equal" blame on the presumption that the sides were equal in number -- or in degree of derangement is false. It doesn't pass the laugh test.

    For long and short pants media, apply a nutcracker / lawn jockey ratio if you need simple formula for where to place blame and how much indignation to apply when doing so.

    Parent

    What a crock (5.00 / 7) (#195)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:16:21 PM EST
    from my point of view it is exactly like the irrational Hillary hate many claim to have escaped from Obama blogs.

    Have you ever seen a Hillary supporter use the word n*gger? Wish for Obama's painful death? Obama blogs and commenters used the most disgusting and vile misgynistic attacks against her they could think of. It makes me literally ill to even think about the ugly things the O blogs said about her.

    No, sorry, if you POV is that there was equal hate on both side, your POV is skewed. Badly.

    Parent

    I can't believe (5.00 / 4) (#91)
    by pie on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:38:13 PM EST
    Richard Cohen wrote that, especially this part:

    It's over, ladies and gentlemen. Hillary Clinton lost. And so did you.

    Hmmm.  I didn't realize he was such a fan.

    I hate the way Obama supporters ... (5.00 / 4) (#100)
    by cymro on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:40:24 PM EST
    ... cannot abide the least amount of honest criticism of their candidate, and yet are happy to discuss Hillary Clinton and her supporters using premises and arguments that are entirely false and based on lies and character attacks.

    I do not hate Obama.

    Hear, hear (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by mwb on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:40:42 PM EST
    I don't even care what they will do as long as they do it some where far away.

    And let me add my thanks for all of the hard work by the staff, in what must have been a trying couple of months.

    I've been reading for a while and but only recently joined to be able to comment.  

    I greatly appreciate the pool of relative sanity you have created as places that I used to like but became unbearable collapsed under the wait of such hate.

    Frankly, while I personally supported Senator Clinton in the primaries - I could never take people who actively hated either Senators Clinton or Obama seriously or accord them status as accepted parts of the Democratic Party (this goes for party officials too!)

    my issue with the HATERS (5.00 / 5) (#121)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:48:33 PM EST
    and the mainstream bloggers who actively encouraged and allowed their comments on their sites (HuffPo, DailyKos, AmericaBlog, etc) is that they are all being rewarded now by the Dem party and by Obama.  They will ALL be blogging from the convention.  They will pay no price for the vitriol they participated in during the primary.

    There is always a price (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:52:35 PM EST
    most often it is paid over time though with interest.....karma and all that

    Parent
    considering the fact that (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by cpinva on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:58:30 PM EST
    mr. cohen himself was one of the noisier "hillary haters", i am hopefull this means he's retiring from the pundit business. probably not. he will, like all the good boys & girls of the MSM, merely re-write or ignore history, to serve his group's needs.

    can we say "hypocrite" boys and girls? i knew that you could.

    I see some obtuseness (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:04:06 PM EST
    and so must remind:

    The kernel of every attack on Clinton is an attack on her character.  She is untrustworthy and must not ever be president.

    The kernel of every attack on obama is that he is not ready.  With more experience he could be president one day.

    There have been sub themes that deviate slightly but those are the basics.

    I urge those compelling us to look over there to meditate on this for a few minutes before continuing.

    I saw (2.00 / 0) (#178)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:07:29 PM EST
    just today, something about "sociopath" and "raping and subjugating women". That was just today.

    Parent
    that was deleted (none / 0) (#193)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:15:19 PM EST
    Energy (5.00 / 0) (#171)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:05:00 PM EST
    Another way that Hilary Haters can channel their energy is to ensure that Obama doesn't continue this sharp right turn! It normal that candidates steer to the middle after a primary, but even Rachel Maddow expressed her concern over this. And no one could accuse her of being a card carrying member of the Hilary Fan Club!

    no it wouldn't (5.00 / 0) (#172)
    by sarahfdavis on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:05:00 PM EST
    it would began a back and forth but wouldn't be a sv.
    it is a description of his skill and accomplishments in
    regards to holding the highest office in the land.
    i see him as incompetent in regards to that measure.
    sexist? huh? not at all.

    The Hillary Haters will continue to find (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by bjorn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:09:49 PM EST
    ways to hate her and Bill...e.g., the endless post-mortems about her campaign, the money spent, the debt, her loss is all Bill's fault, etc.  I imagine that the hate will continue until the death of both Clintons.  Too much money has been made and will be made off the hate to stop hating now.  Some of the haters don't even know how much they hate!

    So, long live Jeralyn and TL where hating anyone is never been promoted, rewarded or tolerated.
    Thank you Jeralyn!

    In my case (5.00 / 7) (#188)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:12:54 PM EST
    My support isn't tranferrable.  I don't care about what "Hillary wants".  I didn't support "Hillary".  I supported Hillary's issues.  Except for the ones Obama has borrowed this week, Obama's issues aren't Hillary's issues.

    It's not about "supporting a person".  And I think when you talk that way about people who don't support your candidate, then you are, yourself, trolling.

    Are you saying a person is a GOP troll if they happen to support the green party candidate?

    Some of us are no longer members of the Democratic Party.  

    In addition, being loyal to something for its own sake, not because it actually deserves your loyalty, is cultism, IMHO.

    thank you . a million times is not enough. (5.00 / 4) (#207)
    by Lil on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:24:08 PM EST
    TL saves my brain from exploding. In fact I'm gonna try to send a few bucks now.

    Safe Harbor (5.00 / 4) (#220)
    by Sunshine on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:31:09 PM EST
    This is about the only blog that I go to anymore, as so many have said the others are so crude and hateful that it is upsetting to go there...
    I am so glad it's not up to me to cast the deciding vote, no matter who I vote for here in Texas, McCain is going to win so I can make a statement... So when I vote for Cynthia McKinney, I will be casting a vote for the other woman on the ballot....

    I have a friend (none / 0) (#235)
    by Lil on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:41:42 PM EST
    who supported Hillary and "knew" that Obama was "never gonna win", but as an African American, she wanted to make a "statement" so she voted for Obama...and the rest is history.

    Parent
    Use And Misuse Of The Word "Haters" (5.00 / 3) (#233)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:40:48 PM EST
    All during BushII's administration I listened to everyone who disagreed with his policies described as "haters." To me this was a way to discount and stop legimate dialog on his decisions and the direction he was taking the country. Were there people who truly hated W. Yes. Was everyone who voiced disagreement with him and his administration, "haters." No.

    There was definitely "Hillary hatred" evident in the media and on the blogs. Some of the blogs encouraged or fueled this hatred and others ignored it. The media definitely wasn't into Obama hatred during the primary but there were some blogs that encouraged or fueled Obama hatred and others ignored it.

    TL allowed disagreement on the issues as long as it remained in bounds and deleted comments by everyone that legimately went over the top.

    I hope going forward that the label "haters" is limited to only those people who truly deserve it. Disagreement is not hatred. If Hillary had won the nomination I would have disagreed with her on some of the issues and thought some of her actions were dumb.I would have voiced my opinion on it. That would not make me a Hillary hater. I want the same freedom now that Obama is the nominee.

    Haters on both sides (5.00 / 0) (#240)
    by Rashomon66 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:56:52 PM EST
    I've been spending some time on numerous Democratic blogs over the past month and I can verify that there is just as much hate for Obama out there as there is for Hillary. And it's not pretty. [Check out No Quarter as an example] I think it is just part of the process. But I also think it is not prevelant among most Americans. It's just something that fits into the internet blog chat mentality. I'm hoping the haters on both sides simmer down and focus their energies on getting a Democrat into the White House.

    How ingenuous of Cohen (5.00 / 1) (#245)
    by fctchekr on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 04:07:49 PM EST
    To call out all the Hillary haters as if he wasn't one of them? Talk about an utter lack of ethical journalism. From race-baiting to hate-baiting WAPO is getting my numero uno ranking. Yes, the list is growing, and truth be told, the left lib media has superceded the right in the hate department. This should be a lesson to all, stay in the middle, don't get caught in either extremist view, no matter which direction it flows..

    True Lies (5.00 / 1) (#246)
    by DemBillC on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 04:20:09 PM EST
    Yes the Obamabots certainly took Clinton bashing to a whole new level and were much more slimy than the Repubs ever were. I will never forget Randi Toads screaming that Hillary was a F*cking Wh*re while Obamabots cheered. It was the low point in campaign history.

    Some of them are busy bringing (4.42 / 7) (#26)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:09:46 PM EST
    irrational hatred of McCain to the comments here.
    I don't care for that at all.
    There SHOULD be plenty of reasons for voters to reject McCain that don't rely on ignominious character attacks.


    Wow (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:37:45 PM EST
    If only you felt the same way towards attacks at someone ostensibly in your own party.  But you have no problem with those attacks.

    Parent
    Im guilty (none / 0) (#117)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:47:16 PM EST
    of "hateful" comments abot McCain. I admit it. And Im not proud of it.

    But what I am "proud" of is hateing tha fact that there's so little hate expressed here towards the spending of hundreds of billions sowing chaos and death in the M.E and lining the pockets of govt contractor/thieves while people here continue to talk as if we should be completely galvanized by what amounts to a high-level personality contest.

    Parent

    You can thank Axelrod's strategy for that (5.00 / 1) (#231)
    by tree on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:38:10 PM EST
    No kidding! (none / 0) (#119)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:48:11 PM EST
    If McCain can't be beaten on issues alone, our candidate is not the candidate for the people.  Particularly in this election cycle!

    Parent
    I respectfully disagree, Jeralyn (4.00 / 4) (#111)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:43:25 PM EST
    He/she is often hijacking threads, posting insulting comments, taunting, engaging in pissing contests, and violating site rules. When someone objects to this poster or some others that are similar, the TL oldsters come along and defend their right to violate the rules due to the fact that they've 'been around a long time'.

    Well, it's your blog and you have the right to say who gets to violate the rules or not. But it's obvious that some here have passed a magic timeline that allows them to flaunt the rules. Hope that happens someday for the rest of us because I sure have a lot of choice words for those guys if I were allowed to say them.

    funny (none / 0) (#115)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:46:45 PM EST
    in your hypocritical post, you say nothing about the original post which of course was the exact same wording only different names associated with it.  See i cannot call you a hypocrite, I can only point out the hypocrisy of your post.  

    Parent
    I don't engage with a**holes like you (3.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:49:11 PM EST
    So screw off. Yes, I know you're above the rules here, I don't give a sh!t. Go ahead and delete my post TL, I don't care. This commenter never contributes anything but arrogance and hatefulness, I don't care how long he's been here.

    Parent
    see (none / 0) (#134)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:53:35 PM EST
    it is not being above the rules.  If you cannot acknowledge the double standard in the post, why cannot I respond in kind with the same language of the original post?  I come here for reasoned dialogue and 80% of the comments of late (myself included) have been crapola.  You have to police your own if there is going to be open dialogue.

    Parent
    i should have said (none / 0) (#170)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:04:53 PM EST
    UGH!! (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:31:03 PM EST

    What a nasty comment.
    Is this the kind of vindictive gloating and middle school level snideness we can expect from HILLARY supporters now?


    Parent

    This is the same (none / 0) (#147)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:57:23 PM EST
    Dr. Molly that accused yours truly of defending pedophiles?

    Parent
    well that didn't take long (3.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:05:04 PM EST
    How predictable. I knew it would only be a matter of moments until the exclusive, above-the-rules, oldtimer club started circling the wagons. Now we just need squeaky with some hillary cultist accusations and some research into all my past comments, followed by who else, let's see kdog? I can't remember them all right now.

    Yes, yes, i know how much contempt y'all have for me and others who don't go along with you  - it's been pretty obvious. Believe me, the feelings are returned.

    Done. Go jump on someone else for fun, maybe they'll play along.

    Parent

    It's not necessarily (none / 0) (#186)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:11:51 PM EST
    "contempt" to point out that you've done the things you want others called on the carpet for.

    But go ahead, you can even call it "hate' if you want.

    Parent

    Oilbama (3.33 / 3) (#243)
    by DemBillC on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 04:02:28 PM EST
    My IP address was recently banned from both the Huff post and TMP for asking why Obama voted for Dick Cheney's Big Oil Energy Bill. I consider it the worst bill in the nations history as it was crafted in secret by Oil company Lobbyists and Cheney. It is horrifically anti environment and is the reason gas is now over 4 bucks a gallon.
    Both Clinton and McCain voted against it. It is the reason I would never vote for Oilbama.


    what about the virulent Obama haters? (3.00 / 2) (#54)
    by tben on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:21:41 PM EST
    Will they be shown the exit too?

    It is really remarkable, and very sad, the level of constant invective against Obama that was allowed, and even encouraged to fester here over the last few months. Making an oasis for Clinton people is one thing, but this site became totally unwelcoming for anyone who wasnt obsessed with finding the most negative and cynical interpretation of anything Obama ever said or did.

    Will all real democrats be welcomed back here?

    Obama (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:27:18 PM EST
    I disagree.

    I haven't seen any hatred of Obama being expressed on this site.

    What I have seen is disappointment being expressed about his lack of progressive credentials.

    Parent

    Mote, eye, beam n/t (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by echinopsia on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:27:56 PM EST
    criticism (5.00 / 7) (#70)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:28:13 PM EST
    is not hatred. Comments with hate and personal attacks aimed at Obama were deleted the same as were those directed at Hillary.

    Parent
    sorry Jeralyn, (2.87 / 8) (#87)
    by tben on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:37:06 PM EST
    I have read this site for a long time, and have always had enormous respect for you and your work.

    Thus, I am willing to accept that you really believe what you just wrote - I know I have read it many times.

    But I just feel the need to respectfully inform you that at least one person (me) and I suspect many others just find your statement completely off the wall. I have read hundreds of comments here about Obama being a racist, race-baiter, a liar, a plaigerist, a moron incapable of a single original thought, a misogynist, a republican etc etc etc. On almost every single thread. Over and over again.

    Somehow you seem to think these are not personal attacks, or not hateful. Sorry, I just dont understand how you could say such things.

    Parent

    Hmm (5.00 / 5) (#151)
    by Steve M on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:58:38 PM EST
    It's an unacceptable personal attack to say that someone ran a race-baiting campaign?  Because that allegation is de rigeur at the progressive blogs when Hillary is the target.

    Parent
    TalkLeft (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:09:49 PM EST
    never wrote those things and we deleted the race-baiting comments that we saw. With more than 1,000 comments a day, did we miss some? Probably. But name-calling and personal character attacks were not allowed and I don't believe many remain.

    Parent
    to be clear (3.00 / 2) (#208)
    by tben on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:24:24 PM EST
    Jeralyn. All my criticisms are directed at the commenters that you nurtured here. The front page stuff, ie TalkLeft as a brand, was perfectly fine. Lots of pure Clinton spin - sure. But not at all objectionable.

    But I am sorry. I am not talking about "missing some" occaisional comments. I am talking about the dominant sense that was established in almost every thread.

    'Obama is evil - lets see how we can flesh that out given the subject matter of this thread. ' Thats what the comment section became. Anyone with a different perspective was troll-swarmed and driven away.


    Parent

    YOU are the one who needs perspective. (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:25:15 PM EST
    you mean that I need (none / 0) (#223)
    by tben on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:32:57 PM EST
    to adopt your perspective?


    Parent
    tben....I will be the first to tell you I loathe (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:28:40 PM EST
    what obama represents; but I can say with total honesty, Jeralyn nor this site has ever turned anyone away from here, unless they deserved it.  The problem this entire campaign season is that somewhere it was deemed Hillary supporters are not supposed to say anything negative about obama, but vile rhetoric can be spewed all the livelong day.  Sorry, that doesn't fly.

    Parent
    huh? (3.00 / 2) (#177)
    by tben on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:07:06 PM EST
    First of all, I think you are offering a good example of the type of over-the-top antiObama sentiment that has taken root here.

    You "loathe what Obama represents"?
    Wow. That kinda begs the question of what it is that he has come to represent to you. But out here in the real world, Obama is a politician, as is Clinton - and he represents a political philosophy and a set of policy prescriptions that are, in the grand scheme of things, almost indistinguishable from what Clinton stands for.

    Yes somehow you support one, and loathe the other. Sorry, maybe you have some special insights, but to me it sounds like someone who has taken a ride on the great downward spiral that leads to derangement syndromes. The kind of spiral that came to be the only thing that the TL comment section had to offer after a while.

    I remeber in the early days there were almost as many Obama supporters here as Clinton supporters, and there was much interesting dialog. I used to think that TL would serve through the primary as a meeting place for the rational and respectful members of both camps. But it was not to be.

    Maybe it is the fault of Obama supporters in the larger blogosphere - that Clinton supporters needed a place of their own to vent, rather than any place to dialog with the other side. But be that as it may, it doesnt change the fact that this site became a Clinton version of DK.

    I hope y'all can tap into your own ability to understand that most Obama supporters are not some alien, evil species. They tend to react the  same way you do.

    Parent

    I dunno (5.00 / 5) (#199)
    by Steve M on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:18:20 PM EST
    The Obama supporters at MyDD are not part of some alien species, I guess, but I sure don't recognize many of them as progressives.  I mean, when people start arguing that Cheney's energy bill was a good thing and Hillary was wrong to oppose it, you realize matters have gone pretty far afield.

    Parent
    Not defending MyDD (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by CST on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:26:07 PM EST
    Since I haven't been there and don't know.  There is a legitimate argument to be made on the energy bill though.  I work in planning, so I read a LOT on this bill, from what I can see, it was the best energy bill that has been passed since Bush took office.  Is it perfect?  No, but you can't write it off entirely.  It did some very important things to increase R&D for alternate energy.  I think it is more complicated than people make it out to be and you could make a legitimate argument either way.  It certainly isn't cut and dry though and many professional planners have supported the bill.

    Parent
    What is a "professional planner"? (none / 0) (#217)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:29:29 PM EST
    Techincally (none / 0) (#224)
    by CST on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:33:33 PM EST
    It is someone who has their AICP, but it's really anyone who works in the field of planning.  I was referring to the people who write for planning journals like APA, JAPA, etc...

    Parent
    And fyi...even I have had my comments (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:30:39 PM EST
    deleted when considered over the top.  It appears Jeralyn is even-handed in her monitoring.  Sometimes I didn't agree, but it her site after all.

    Parent
    yes many of your comments (4.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:10:37 PM EST
    are deleted. Thank you for understanding.

    Parent
    Talk Left never hid its support for (5.00 / 8) (#194)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:15:57 PM EST
    Hillary; Jeralyn was a vocal Hillary supporter, and said so often.  As a result, there were a lot of people of like mind and inclination here - and we were here because we could discuss the primary, discuss our support of Hillary, without being assaulted from all sides by those who hate the Clintons, and those who coupled their hatred of the Clintons with their support for Obama.  It was one of the few rational places where we could have substantive discussion of actual issues, differences in policy and plans, without the aggravation of having threads hijacked by people who thought this election was about how people were dressed, what kind of laugh they have, the state of their ankles, etc.

    That this was a site frequented by mostly Hillary supporters meant, to no one's surprise, that there was indeed a larger proportion of negative discussion about Obama: what his record was, what his qualifications were, the ever-shifting positions, his penchant for not wanting to work hard, but to take credit, his associations, the inability of his supporters to discuss what was going to be changed and how, and what exactly he stood for.  It's funny, but some of us actually think those are legitimate areas to explore in making a decision about who should be the next president.

    We were pretty honest, I think, in what Hillary's faults were - we all knew she wasn't perfect and said so - with examples.  

    Jeralyn and BTD did an exemplary job weeding out and banning those who crossed the line, regardless of which candidate the offender supported; this was not a case of Hillary supporters being exempt from the rules, but was a smart, even-handed and disciplined way of keeping the discussion on topic, civil and substantive.  The reward for many of us is a place where thinking people can gather to have spirited and thought-provoking conversation - and that's why we're here, and not on other blogs, beating our heads into mush trying to bring even a little rationality to a clearly irrational crowd.

    Would I feel the same way if I had been here trying to make the case for Obama?  I'd sure like to think so, but who knows?  

    Nothing's perfect, and no one will be pleased 100% of the time; on balance, TL has been a model that other blogs should have made more of an effort to strive for.

    Parent

    "REAL" (5.00 / 6) (#202)
    by Left of center on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:20:02 PM EST
    Democrats would've supported the candidate with the best chance of beating McCain in November, but unfortunately she had to be replaced with someone less experienced.

    Parent
    You made false comparisons. (3.00 / 2) (#80)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:34:44 PM EST
    Its' quite simple.

    ah (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:36:47 PM EST
    isn't that the beauty of differing opinions?  I think that your accusation that they are false is self-serving and lacking in objectivity.

    Parent
    Hate (3.00 / 5) (#97)
    by Laertes on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:39:06 PM EST
    During the campaign, I was pissed, like everyone who was paying attention.  We all thought our candidate wasn't getting a fair shake from the media.  We all thought that the other candidate was getting away with stuff that ours would get called on.  Insignificant little gaffes of my candidate were blown out of proportion, and terrible things the other candidate did that clearly revealed the darkness inside went largely unnoticed.

    Anyway, as a former "Hillary hater", I can tell you that the reason you see less "Hillary hate" here these days is simple: Nobody's angry anymore.

    If Cohen wants to imagine a horde of crestfallen Obama supporters all weeping bitter tears of frustration because they don't have Hillary to kick around anymore, he's certainly entitled to his weird little fantasies, but the reality is that we're not angry anymore.  Bygones.  Democrats aren't the kind of people who stay mad once the battle's over.  I'm glad she fought like hell, and I hope other Democrats learn from her example.  In particular, I want to see some Hillary-style fight-like-hell from Obama as he takes on the GOP slime machine this fall.

    I always thought Hillary would be an outstanding President.  There were other Democrats I liked better, but I liked her just fine.  This has been hard for her, and that makes me sad because I like her.  I know how disappointed I'd be if my candidate had lost, and I'm sad that a bunch of my fellow Democrats are feeling that disappointment.  I hope Obama manages to win most of them over so that they can be as happy as I will be when he wins in November.  When he wins, that'll be a triumph for all Democrats, the ones who supported him early, the ones like me who rallied to his banner a bit later, and the ones who arrive there over the next few months.

    The remaining Hillary haters are, like the remaining Hillary dead-enders, mostly false-flag GOP trolls.  Let's recognize them for what they are, and laugh at them as their silly candidate and their outdated tactics and their failed ideology go down to defeat this fall.

    More arrogance and mocking (5.00 / 6) (#116)
    by sarahfdavis on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:47:06 PM EST
    If we continue to support and defend hillary because we see Obama as incompetent, we are 'dead-enders'.
    Nice. Shall I call you an obama cultist?

    Parent
    I'm very scared (5.00 / 5) (#120)
    by Emma on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:48:14 PM EST
    When he wins, that'll be a triumph for all Democrats.

    With Obama's latest efforts with the "Joshua Generation" I am terrified that this won't be true. I see women's rights and gay/lesbian rights falling off the Democratic agenda because they are "too divisive" and do not fit in with the perceived necessity of reaching out to religious fundamentalists.

    I guess this is off topic, but my fear on this is overwhelming at the moment.  If Dems are busy courting the religious right, who's left to defend my rights?  We've only got Dems and Republican in Congress.  If Dems aren't going to do it, who's left?

    Parent

    That has really (5.00 / 5) (#154)
    by pie on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:59:08 PM EST
    angered me.  I wonder how those he's now wooing feel about pro-choice attitudes and gay issues.

    Actually, I don't wonder.

    Parent

    No I don't wonder, either (5.00 / 4) (#183)
    by Emma on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:10:14 PM EST
    And it really, really makes me not trust Obama.  

    Yes, I suppose we can agree to disagree about abortion and gay rights.  The problem is, "agreeing to disagree" freezes the status quo.  Right now, "agreeing to disagree" about abortion and gay rights means more and stronger attacks on abortion rights (since that's the status quo) and no civil rights for gays and lesbians (since that's the status quo).

    To me, Joshua Generation looks a lot like Obama saying he's just fine with the status quo on women's and gay/lesbian rights.

    Parent

    Sometimes it's easier (5.00 / 4) (#203)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:20:30 PM EST
    to fight an all-out frontal attack than a backstabbing one from your own side.

    This is part of the reason I don't fear a McCain presidency as much as many of Obama's supporters seem to.

    Yes it would suck for most liberal causes on one level.  But on another, it's unlikely to result into an equally problematic complacency.

    Parent

    I don't see it like that (none / 0) (#198)
    by CST on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:17:49 PM EST
    I missed the earlier thread on this, but I thought I'd add my two cents.  I see this more as a sign that he isn't going to assume all evangelicals are red, or that there aren't areas of agreement.  I don't think he will compromise on women's or gay rights.  I see this more that he is recognizing a shift in evangelicals.  There have been very interesting articles written about how young evangelicals are turning away from the right because they care more about things like global warming and not killing iraqis than they do about two people who love each other and happen to be the same gender.  There are things that are inherantly "Christian" as well about helping the poor etc...  For example, I know a lot of Catholics who vote democrat despite the pro-choice issue.  I just see it as a sign that he isn't willing to write these people off.  

    My opinion only.

    Parent

    Keep religion (5.00 / 5) (#204)
    by pie on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:23:08 PM EST
    out of politics.

    Just my opinion (and that of a lot of other people I've read on the internet).

    Parent

    Personal hostility isn't the issue (5.00 / 0) (#219)
    by Emma on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:30:11 PM EST
    young evangelicals are turning away from the right because they care more about things like global warming and not killing iraqis than they do about two people who love each other and happen to be the same gender.

    Civil rights have to be fought for.  Attempts to backslide on civil rights have to be fought against.  If there is no commitment to that, you won't get civil rights and you will have backsliding on what you've already gotten.

    Young evangelicals may "care more" about global warming than about me getting married, but that's the issue.  You don't get civil rights if you're willing to put them on the back burner.  You have to work for civil rights, you have to push legislation, you have to put it on the agenda.  I find it hard to believe that evangelicals of any age will support, or even tolerate, that in re: abortion and gay rights.

    Parent

    Part of a pattern (5.00 / 5) (#234)
    by Mike H on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:40:58 PM EST
    The problem with these comments by Obama is that it paints a disturbing picture when viewed as a whole.  He's reached out to homophobes and misogynists.  His platform on social security doesn't take privatization off the table.  His health care policy is a sop to insurance companies and doesn't even cover everyone. His energy policy promotes nuclear and "clean" coal more than safe renewable options.  He praises President Reagan and disses President Clinton.

    He's NOT a progressive and anyone expecting him to be will almost certainly be rudely awakened.  I'm almost amused at the Hillary-haters at places like A*blog and Dkos, as they most often called HER a "Republican", when it is Obama's positions that were more GOP-friendly than hers!

    Should he actually win the general (of which I'm highly skeptical), I think he'll be far more conservative than a lot of his followers realize, and there will be some "buyers remorse" but far too late.

    Parent

    I understand (none / 0) (#221)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:31:55 PM EST
    there are various priorities for barious people. But the fundamental christian doctrine doesn't allow for much lee way. If you don't adhere to the doctrine, you're out. They will never accept much of the progressive agenda unless Obama plans to rewrite it.

    Parent
    This: (5.00 / 4) (#162)
    by Nadai on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:02:08 PM EST
    The remaining Hillary haters are, like the remaining Hillary dead-enders, mostly false-flag GOP trolls.

    is simply not true, much as you might wish it was.  It's not unlike people who, when a horrible murder is committed in their town, insist that it must have been committed by an outsider, because no one they know would be capable of such a thing.

    I started reading DKos back in 2003.  Unless the GOP infiltrated that site in great numbers then, lying low waiting for the 2008 primary, a good chunk of the Hillary haters there are, indeed, Democrats.  The same is true of a good chunk of the Hillary dead-enders, like me.  Like it or not, Democrats are as capable of behavior you loathe as Republicans are.  One of the sad lessons of this primary.

    Parent

    If this is true.. (5.00 / 5) (#196)
    by dianem on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:16:37 PM EST
    ....then the Obama fans are extremely offensive people. According to everything I've read from Obama fan sites, Clinton lost because she ran a race-baiting, divisive campaign that used right-wing talking points. If I really believed that, I could not simply forgive and forget. If all of those people didn't believe that, then they were using political hate speech to tar a good woman. If they did believe that, then they are instantly forgiving a woman who did some really awful things. In a way, I respect the people who have hung onto their anger more. The others obviously saw the politics behind the charges against Clinton and simply chose to tolerate the hatred. At least the people who truly fell for the nonsense were sincere. I may not agree with them, but they were honestly duped.

    Parent
    That's an interesting (5.00 / 3) (#230)
    by frankly0 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:36:48 PM EST
    point, which I've been thinking about from the opposite direction.

    One thing that bothers me are the people who were Hillary supporters who attacked Obama on every possible front, throwing attacks at him that even I found over-the-top or just baseless, and yet, when Hillary conceded, decided that they needed to be "good Democrats" and get behind Obama. Now, suddenly, they act as though they are just fine with Obama, and are 100% on board.

    Uh, if you really are just fine with Obama, how about all the pretty terrible things you were saying about him just a week or two ago? No longer true, or no longer operative?

    Really, if you have any integrity, you have to make criticisms that you believe in and you think are fair, and then stick with them, even if you support Obama over McCain. The only way you can make that consistent is to be very clear in your own mind, and in what you say, that Obama is, for you, the lesser of two evils. Of course, that attitude may not make you popular or useful to Obama supporters. But, really, how can it be otherwise, if you are to retain some integrity?

    Parent

    I agree with this. (5.00 / 1) (#236)
    by eleanora on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:43:13 PM EST
    I know some of my bewildered response to charges of race-baiting is due to the blinders of my own white privilege, and I've tried hard to learn to see past that. But recognizing that Senator Obama and his campaign probably used sexist stereotypes and language unintentionally due to male privilege and that Senator Clinton made grievous errors on race unintentionally due to white privilege is a very. far. cry. from labelling someone a misogynist or a racist outright.

    Labelling them that way throws away the entire person and grinds them down into the dirt. If outraged supporters truly believed it, that's one thing. But branding someone with those labels as a cynical political ploy is disgusting. I find it very hard to forgive that.

    Parent

    What is a Hillary dead ender? (none / 0) (#130)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:51:56 PM EST
    Latest (5.00 / 1) (#239)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:48:23 PM EST
    slur for Clinton supporters. I believe Sullivan coined it a couple of days ago and the troops have taken it to the blogs.

    Parent
    What is a Hillary Dead-ender (1.00 / 2) (#160)
    by Laertes on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:00:47 PM EST
    Go to hillaryis44.com to see actual specimens in the wild.

    Parent
    is this the unity stuff (5.00 / 4) (#179)
    by sarahfdavis on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:08:06 PM EST
    that obama and his supporters talk about?
    mocking and degrading people that believe in and support
    somone else? is this how y'all are gonna unite the country and
    the world? by spitting at people that disagree with you? love the hope man, love the hope.

    Parent
    Its also possible that Laertes (none / 0) (#227)
    by tree on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:34:13 PM EST
    is a GOP troll. Either that or he's one of those supporters that doesn't understand what unity is. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot of those. Or else there's an armada of GOP trolls out there.

    Parent
    Laertes (4.00 / 4) (#191)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:13:57 PM EST
    Take your insults elsewhere.

    Parent
    lack of judgement is the (1.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:09:51 PM EST
    one area tha Hillary remains consistent in.  With horrible campaign, bosnia, non concession concession speech, etc etc.

    What judgment? Lack of judgment is the (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12:42 PM EST

    one area obama remains consistent in.    

    It appears that many Obama supporters (5.00 / 10) (#32)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:11:39 PM EST
    are having difficult transitioning to GE mode.
    How sad.

    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by indy in sc on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:18:22 PM EST
    Jlvngston is not really an Obama supporter, but someone trying to stir up trouble (similar to the poster with the hillary moniker you pointed out earlier).  If s/he is an Obama supporter, I agree with your comment about the sadness of not being able to move on.

    Parent
    see that is funny (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:20:37 PM EST
    because my post is only a repost of a hillary supporter.  I wonder if the bounds are consistent, there is an ovious hyprocrisy by at least 3 of you.

    Parent
    No hypocrisy here (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by indy in sc on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:59:13 PM EST
    I never said the original post was good or valid.  I said that your post was "trying to stir up trouble," which by your own admission it seems you are trying to do out of some sense of wanting to drive discussion about whose supporters are more vitriolic on this site.

    Both posts are bad--the bounds are consistent.

    Parent

    Train of Hate (1.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:41:10 PM EST
    there is a clear and close knit lineage between fundamentalism, rev. Wright, and the obamablogs.  

    It is what obama must not only reject them but hold them responsible for what they gave done to the party.

    Well, you came out for Obama, Jeralyn (none / 0) (#10)
    by lambert on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 01:59:34 PM EST
    So naturally they're leaving you.

    Eh?

    Forgot to say.... (5.00 / 6) (#11)
    by lambert on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:01:55 PM EST
    That's why Anglachel, for example, had to introduce commment moderation recently.

    Once the hate is in the system, it never goes away. It may find a new target.

    Parent

    no, they're not happy (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:05:07 PM EST
    To the haters, I'm not supportive enough, I should ban all comments that don't cheerlead for him and I should convince readers to adopt my point of view.

    I get clueless emails every day from those who think because I support a candidate it means I can't ever criticize him or her.

    Parent

    Jeralyn, do you think the quality of (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:06:17 PM EST
    Obama's support is different from what other Democratic candidates in recent years have received? I do.

    Parent
    Of course they will never be happy (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:07:09 PM EST
    I should ban all comments that don't cheerlead for him and I should convince readers to adopt my point of view.
    That's just nuts. Life is really to short to deal with people like that.

    Parent
    Thank you for all you've done (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by Step Beyond on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:09:57 PM EST
    I never trust anyone who can't find fault in their candidate. To me they are no different than the 30% of people who still think Bush is doing a good job.

    Parent
    Amen (none / 0) (#132)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:52:51 PM EST
    Thank you (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by standingup on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:55:40 PM EST
    for maintaining a policy of support that includes examination and analysis of the issues.  I detest the current administration's attempt to eliminate dissent and refuse it if demanded by the Democratic party or nominee.      

    Parent
    Worth repeating (none / 0) (#15)
    by indy in sc on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:05:04 PM EST
    "Life is too short to be consumed by irrational hate."

    Hear, hear!!

    What's next for the Hillary Haters? (none / 0) (#94)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:38:43 PM EST
    Obama selects her as VP.

    Hillary as VP (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Laertes on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:40:40 PM EST
    This Obama supporter says: If Obama and Hillary team up, that's fine by me.  He's entitled to choose any running mate he wants, and if Senator Clinton is his choice, I support him 100%.  That this would make her supporters happy is a nice bonus.  God bless.

    Parent
    i want to see Clinton selected as VP just so (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:51:01 PM EST
    I can watch Keith Olbermann's head EXPLODE on tv.

    Parent
    I think the reaction will be much (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:55:48 PM EST
    greater than Olbermann's implosion.  

    Parent
    I've been thinking... (5.00 / 0) (#205)
    by kredwyn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:23:18 PM EST
    that would be worthy of getting the old fashioned popcorn popper out and mixing up a pot o' kettle corn.

    Parent
    I like this comment better than the (none / 0) (#107)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:42:16 PM EST
    conclusion of your last one.

    Parent
    how is it off topic? (none / 0) (#96)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:39:01 PM EST
    the topic is Hillary hating, and I comment that there is a reason that she has been villified.  Whether or not I believe it is irrelevant.  What is relevant is there a double standard with regard to acceptable discourse and that my friend is horse pucky.

    aren't you better off (5.00 / 0) (#142)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:56:19 PM EST
    trying to explain to jeralyn that calling it "Hillary hating" is, in and of itself, an expression of hatred towards anyone who expresses their hatred of Clinton?

    Were you able to follow that?

    Parent

    no please type slower (none / 0) (#156)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 02:59:16 PM EST
    you are too deep for me

    Parent
    Not new! (none / 0) (#197)
    by abiodun on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 03:16:52 PM EST
    I have always wondered about the hate(couched as sexism and misogyny) displayed in the press,(esp radio) towards HRC for 15 years. The greatest brand in the Democratic Party has been Bill Clinton, and the dems let him be demonized since 1990, while building a Reagan cult. Maybe the Democratic Party has finally woken up!

    Something to look forward to ... (none / 0) (#242)
    by This from a broad on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 04:01:23 PM EST
    All the aforementioned entities, Ed Schultz; Randy Rhodes; Huff Post; Kos, et al, I believe will provide us with some entertainment going forward.  When the right-wing attack machine kicks into gear they will be APPAULD at the level of vitriole and lies headed toward Obama.  I doubt that they will ever acknowledge that it is the same stuff they threw at Clinton.  Hee Hee.

    Cause hatin' on Grampy just aint as much fun... (none / 0) (#247)
    by jb64 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 04:26:44 PM EST
    I expected that once this thing was all decided that traffic in the Hillary hate lane would diminish. It just has to be a lot harder to work up a lather against Grampa johnny.

    Look there's been plenty of invective on both sides to go around, and frankly the media egged a lot of it on, predictably because it sells. I'd have to say that I was quite shocked at the commentary on Daily kos, and TPM, though not as much by the huff-post (Arriana is the pre-eminent Clinton(s) hater on the web)just seems to me that a lot of folks got sucked right into the GOP talking points vis-a-vis the Clintons. Like they don't remember the '90's at all.

    I can promise you one thing, the media will be sorely disappointed if Obama chooses someone other than HRC as his running mate. All the wind will be knocked out of their sails. Enough to make them turn on Obama.

    Let the hate roll until its no longer needed. (none / 0) (#248)
    by lizpolaris on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 08:15:14 AM EST
    Hahaha...

    My intolerance for those who continue to post them has risen. I'm erasing these users rather than deleting their comments one by one.

    Wow, it's a really good thing that you let these hateful people usurp your comments section while it really counted during the campaign season.  Now that the paid disruptors work is done and they've stopped due to not being funded anymore, you can delete the saps who stupidly fell in line with their shilling and continue to hang around.

    Yes, now is definitely the time to crack down.