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This is pretty funny from someone who joined the League of Outraged Bloggers Against Hillary Clinton:

. . . [W]e're right now in the middle of a major presidential campaign. The campaign, as campaigns tend to be, is waged by big league politicians. And I've heard Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, John McCain, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and all the rest all try to mislead the voters on a whole variety of subjects over the course of the months. Nobody finds this particularly shocking. Indeed, anyone who doesn't recognize that there's a lot of BS and hocus pocus out there on the campaign trail would be dismissed as a naive child.

(Emphasis supplied.) Best check the archives of the A-List Obama blogs for the past 6 months. Seems like there were a lot of naive children blogging out there.

Speaking for me only

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    The Obama bloggers were not naive children... (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by madamab on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:40:33 AM EST
    they were lying, IMHO.

    Big difference.

    please name names (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:44:44 AM EST
    and cite specific examples.  I will send on your behalf to each of the bloggers you believe intentionally misled or lied outright to see if and how they will respond. I am not a fan of blanket statements and would like to know who lied and how as I don't read other blogs but am curious.

    Parent
    Try Doing A Search On DKos (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00:54 AM EST
    for Kos' FP post on Clinton wants Lieberman to maintain his committee chairmanship. Look at the video that goes along with his statement. At no time did Clinton advocate for Lieberman to keep his committees.  

    Parent
    One oft repeated lie was that Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:20:18 AM EST
    agreed that the FL and MI primaries should not count. She did no such thing.

    Parent
    on kos or who (1.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:21:31 AM EST
    Why don't you go find out, then come back. (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:23:41 AM EST
    I can't think of any earthly reason I'd want to do something for you. I'm hoping you'll go away, since no one here will do your bidding.

    Parent
    How about Kos - (5.00 / 10) (#47)
    by liminal on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:02:38 AM EST
    - who initially said that Michigan should count and Obama was wrong to remove his name as it wasn't required by the four-state pledge, and caucuses were bad and disenfranchising, then did a 180 on the subject?

    How about the insane levels of Hillary-bashing reached after the interview (60 minutes, I believe it was) in which she was asked whether Obama was a Christian.  See Media Matters on the subject.

    How about the deliberate misinterpretation (i.e. lying) regarding Clinton's remarks about Bobby Kennedy?  See the Daily Howler on the subject.

    All lies; and the lying liers who told them just don't care.  There is something absolutely sick about a so-called progressive culture that not simply allows but encourages that level of mendacious vitriol.

    Parent

    kos (5.00 / 8) (#65)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:11:31 AM EST
    Come on...in Jan, he called Clinton a fighter for staying on the ballot in MI. A month and a half later, he's seemingly buried deep in the midst of the faux outrage known as CDS.

    If he wasn't prevaricating, he certainly turned into a naive child almost overnight.

    Parent

    Tactically Dynamic (5.00 / 4) (#116)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:32:49 AM EST
    That's the euphemism you were tooking for.

    Parent
    ::snort:: (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:38:44 AM EST
    Perhaps you prefer the term (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by santarita on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:29:32 AM EST
    "deeply dishonest" instead of lying as Matt Yglesias uses in his article?  His article discusses the editorial by Fred Hiatt that castigates people for accusing Bush of lying us into the Iraq War.  And I think part of Matt's point is that it's hard to isolate one statement out of thousands and say that that is a lie.  You have to look at what was said and what was left unsaid, how facts in isolation were used to support inferences when other facts would demolish the support or allowing misstatements of fact to stand.  Sins of omission as well as commission, as we of the pre Joshua Generation might say.

    So maybe instead of using the term 'lying' we ought to just say that many of the "progressive" blogs were deeply dishonest.

    Parent

    This has been exhaustively discussed (3.66 / 3) (#5)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:46:08 AM EST
    And can easily be accessed by tags on the subject.

    Parent
    I never use tags (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:48:28 AM EST
    I think it is a terrible system.

    So certainly you can not use tags to find my material on the subject.

    Parent

    Heh :) (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:50:46 AM EST
    I just google Big Mouth Dem and there you are (snark).

    Parent
    Big 'Ead Dem (none / 0) (#111)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:30:27 AM EST
    Of course we don't remember (5.00 / 14) (#10)
    by madamab on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:50:08 AM EST
    how Kos accused the Clinton campaign of darkening and widening a video of Obama.

    Or how all the Obama blogs (starting with Kos) took Drudge's word that the Clinton camp was spreading the photo of Obama dressed in ceremonial mufti.

    That's not naivete, that's just plain lying.

    Parent

    You can add Aravosis to the (5.00 / 7) (#19)
    by Joelarama on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:53:52 AM EST
    list on both counts.

    Parent
    I'd add the RFK remark uproar (5.00 / 9) (#40)
    by eleanora on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00:34 AM EST
    to that list. The sustained howls across the blogosphere were ridiculous, especially since they didn't go after McCain for remarking recently that JFK was assassinated before he could participate in the 64 debates. And he was talking specifically about debating Obama this summer and not repeating a remark he'd made before. Basically the exact same thing, why is history only evil when Hillary mentions it?

    Parent
    specificity (1.80 / 5) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:08:03 AM EST
    lots of generalizations with no specifics, again I would be happy to email the other blogs and ask for their interpretation and at least two posts here seem to be outright "lies" but 2 does not seem like a lot to me, considering one could argue that each of the candidates have committed more than 2 stretches of the truth in this primary.  

    Parent
    Perhaps you should read the other blogs then (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:17:22 AM EST
    It's counter-intuitive and silly to come to TalkLeft and demand

    (a) research when you're unwilling even to scroll BTD's posts on the subject and

    (b) read other blogs -- as you claim not to do --and report to you their content.

    I suggest you do that rather than tell ME to take my keyboard and post elsewhere, as I've stayed on topic and directly addressed your post.

    I believe that you're simply here to clutter and troll.

    Parent

    thanks (3.66 / 3) (#13)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:52:05 AM EST
    specificity is nice.  So we have Kos following up on a Drudge story which is not technically lying seeing that how Drudge is right sometimes.  I will email Kos and ask if they lied on these two topics.

    Parent
    Kos was mentioned on the darkening issue (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:53:26 AM EST
    not the Drudge issue, which was a more general issue.

    As long as you are going to ask questions.

    Parent

    ok thanks (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:03:02 AM EST
    That's how you do your research? (5.00 / 6) (#18)
    by madamab on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:53:28 AM EST
    Email the liars and ask if they lied?

    LOL!

    Parent

    Literal LOL! (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by madamab on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:03:34 AM EST
    Thanks for the much-needed laugh this morning! :-)

    Parent
    Exactly!!! (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by befuddledvoter on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:19:11 AM EST
    You took the words right out of my mouth. Are you folks kidding?  No offense, but that is soooo naieve.

    Parent
    thanks (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:03:34 AM EST
    can i use you as a reference?

    Parent
    Press sec'y. Big publishing opportunity. (none / 0) (#172)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:43:06 AM EST
    ROFL (5.00 / 9) (#20)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:53:53 AM EST
    Drudge is right sometimes


    Parent
    This is what credible blogging (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:56:51 AM EST
    has devolved to this primary season.

    Parent
    so is a stopped clock (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:03:33 AM EST
    Sigh... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by catfish on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:54:02 AM EST
    You're chasing your own tail.

    Parent
    Oh! Okay, then! (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by Emma on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:54:59 AM EST
    As long as it's not "technically" lying!  I feel better already.

    Parent
    jlivingston....possibly you should go find the (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:55:26 AM EST
    links...sounds like you don't trust anyone on here.  And it appears that you have made it your duty to try to upset the apple cart here.  

    Parent
    Another quote from Yglesias (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by Burned on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00:09 AM EST
    The reason a lot of people seem reluctant to admit that this is what happened is that they were in on the scam.


    Parent
    If you're genuine about looking into this ... (5.00 / 4) (#64)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:10:17 AM EST
    You'll post the content of your letter to dKos and summarize (or post with permission) the content of the reply.

    I look forward to seeing both, as I'd hate to see you pegged as a liar or behave as one.

    That is 100% true.

    Parent

    of course i would (2.60 / 5) (#75)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:16:06 AM EST
    even though I am certain that the reply will be a denial of a lie, but the blanket statement at the start of this thread once again proves the histrionics of post.  so far 2 lies with specifics have been posted with specifics.   the rest are broad accusations about other blogs.  Why not start a thread with every lie with every link.  that is more honest and powerful than a blanket "they're a bunch of liars" statement.  I don't know if there are a "bunch of liars" in the other blogs, I like and trust BTD so I read him, but it would seem to me the best way to address it is to have a running stream of the lies and the liars who tell them to make a real and traceable statement.  

    Parent
    Where's that letter to dKos and the reply? (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:02:44 AM EST
    Before you demand research from others, why are you still doing it instead of immediately doing what you said you would do?

    You're more intent on clutter and trolling then on seeking answers or you'd be investigating dKos now or on checking the links given to you.

    Parent

    Since When Is (2.33 / 3) (#156)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:10:58 AM EST
    Challenging blanket statements that are at best gross exaggerations considered trolling? Just because you are still in the tank for Hillary, and despise Obama doesn't mean that comments that challenge that opinion are troll comments.

    Parent
    Since being given cites s/he won't check ... (none / 0) (#183)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:54:09 AM EST
    ... but prefers to insult not only those who have provided numerous sources and not even minimally be inclined to accept or refute what s/he's been given.

    That is trolling.

    Challenging arguments directly is not trolling.

    Deflecting supports to the arguments, and changing the goalposts, and attributing statements no one made as a fraudulent "case" against others -- instead of accepting or refuting what s/he was offered -- is trolling.

    I'm not in the tank for Hillary. I've given her the same scrutiny as I have Obama. She made it through on merit, record and character. He did not.

    Parent

    so name names and cite examples (2.14 / 7) (#6)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:48:05 AM EST
    it shouldn't be hard for you.  Why not, right here right now, name the liars and their lies.  Be specific.  

    Parent
    how 'bout... (5.00 / 10) (#12)
    by lilburro on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:51:09 AM EST
    Josh Marshall at TPM on the David Shuster issue?

    That was thoroughly discussed here.

    Parent

    Yes it was (5.00 / 6) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:52:13 AM EST
    I tend to think the fighting (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:29:33 AM EST
    was superficial (morbidly funny too) and i'm a person who forgives easily, so it's a strange moment.  People are still on their high horses about every little sleight.  It can't really go on and be taken too seriously.

    Obama does have to realize that he can't turn the convention into a megachurch extravaganza.  it will not innoculate him form the coming the swiftvirus.

    Parent

    Josh Marshall isn't a politician (1.00 / 2) (#27)
    by digdugboy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:55:58 AM EST
    And neither is David Schuster. So how does this apply to your blanket statement?

    More important, why do you continue to stir this pot? I thought you were going to be all about unity now.

    Parent

    Unity with whom? (5.00 / 5) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00:20 AM EST
    I am a strong Obama support and this post is not about Obama at all, except to the extent that he is a pol, and they do what they do. Unless you are part of the "naive children" brigade.

    As for stopping stirring the pot, I will NEVER do that. I will ALWAYS stir the pot. I wrote a post about it. I titled it "What Now?" If you want to know what I will be doing in terms of my blogging, read it.

    Parent

    Keep stirring, please (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by A little night musing on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:34:33 AM EST
    (Not that you need me to tell you what to do!)

    People who think that this is just making trouble: BTD has been promoting Obama as the nominee since way back, with full awareness of his weaknesses as well as his strengths. This, and not some kind of sweep-iy-under-the-rug, blinders-on, drink-the-koolaid "Unity" pony ride, is going to be the only thing that makes me and other Clinton supporters like me become reconciled to voting for him (if in fact we do).

    I'm not just going to wake up tomorrow and forget all the things that ticked me off during this campaign. They need to be dealt with, and every time I hear "get over it" I dig my heels in a little more.

    I didn't agree with BTD about Obama, but it has been the fact that he (BTD) has his eyes open and no illusions that keeps me listening to him. And he is still supporting Obama, I believe.

    Parent

    I said stir "this" pot (1.00 / 1) (#72)
    by digdugboy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:14:41 AM EST
    This pot is afnning the flames for the disgruntled Clinton supporters who remain here. Also, do you not consider yourself an A list blogger anymore?

    Parent
    I'm not "disgruntled" (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:36:52 AM EST
    I actually come here to see how the switch from the primary to the GE mode is going. Although I have made no secret of my unwillingness to vote for Obama, I only post to policy issues since Hillary conceded or make an occasional snarky remark. I find the discussions about choosing a VP on either side of the aisle interesting. I don't leave all worked up about anything.  I am in complete harmony with my political world. I have moved on to working on down ticket races - including supporting Kerry's challenger in the September primary.  If you think that the way to garner support for Obama from former Clinton advocates is to not allow for constructive criticism of Obama, then you don't understand her supporters.

    Parent
    If McCain is elected because of attitudes such as (none / 0) (#176)
    by digdugboy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:49:06 AM EST
    yours, how many more soldiers will be killed, maimed, or suffer PTSD than would under an Obama administration? Is that all right with you? How many more Iraqis will be killed? How soon will the US wage war against Iran? How many Iranians will be killed? How much more quickly will climate change ruin our planet?

    Your principles, whatever they are, outweigh this reality of human and planetary suffering?

    Parent

    The truth is, you or I don't know the (none / 0) (#178)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:51:19 AM EST
    answer to that question.
    I fear very much that Obama will behave recklessly with the military, drawing us into war with Pakistan for example.


    Parent
    Keep telling yourself that if it makes (none / 0) (#187)
    by digdugboy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:00:23 PM EST
    you feel better about your unwillingness to support Obama. For myself, I prefer reality-based decisions. There are clear differences between McCain and Obama on Iraq. McCain recently said that there's no reason to bring soldiers out of Iraq because we have them in, for example, Germany and South Korea. However, the soldiers in Germany and South Korea aren't being killed at the rate of one per day for this month, are they?

    This debate isn't about splitting metaphysical hairs about the nature of knowledge. There are real consequences to this November's election, consequences perhaps larger than any I've known in my lifetime.

    Parent

    Yes, and the consequences of Obama (none / 0) (#189)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:02:09 PM EST
    drawing the US into a war with Pakistan would be FAR worse than anything Bush wrought.


    Parent
    Riiiiiight (none / 0) (#192)
    by digdugboy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:07:49 PM EST
    And yoru basis for fearing that is . . . ?

    Parent
    Obama's repeated promise to use troops in (none / 0) (#195)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:09:17 PM EST
    Pakistan, as well as increase troop strength in Afghanistan. Gosh, that was easy.

    Parent
    Let's put his statement in context, shall we? (none / 0) (#199)
    by digdugboy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:14:44 PM EST
    Surely you can find a link that explains the connection between troops, terrorists, and Pakistan's failure to do anything about them.

    Parent
    National security and foreign policy (none / 0) (#190)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:05:18 PM EST
    are not convincing arguments against McCain.
    Look at Reagan. There are a lot of things about his Presidency I strongly disagree with, but he  left office without fighting a major war, and oversaw the collapse of the Soviet Union.
    Would McCain do as credibly as Reagan? Possibly not, but what you fail to grasp, in my opinion, is that tough talk as a candidate does not guarantee a bellicose Presidency.


    Parent
    So you fear Obama drawing us into war (none / 0) (#194)
    by digdugboy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:09:10 PM EST
    with Pakistan because Reagan didn't fight a major war? Do I understand your argument correctly?

    Parent
    I was comparing McCain and Reagan. (none / 0) (#196)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:10:48 PM EST
    I  know that Obama considers himself to be Ronnie Jr., but I don't see the similarity.

    Parent
    digdug...while you were uprating jlivingston (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00:27 AM EST
    you neglected to read he was asking about bloggers.  

    Parent
    Greg Seargant's sudden (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:31:10 AM EST
    inability to read that HRC letter re: Schuster and his Chelsea gaff.

    Parent
    And how did he lie? (1.80 / 5) (#26)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:55:52 AM EST
    the only thing i can find is the "false" representation of an email.  I will continue to look though, the archives aren't that easy to navigate

    Parent
    This (5.00 / 6) (#30)
    by lilburro on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:58:30 AM EST
    the "false" representation of an email

    isn't lying?

    Parent

    that is what it was called here (1.80 / 5) (#46)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:02:21 AM EST
    If i say that your accusation is a false representation of his explanation, does that make you a liar?  Silly argument

    Parent
    By that standard (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:03:40 AM EST
    the word "lie" should be retired from the language.

    Parent
    You've been running into that standard forever (5.00 / 5) (#56)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:05:44 AM EST
    Because calling people liars is mean. And, you know, it isn't okay to be mean to the super progressive A listers.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 5) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:06:28 AM EST
    But I speak for me only. Not for Talk Left.

    Parent
    i havent been there today (5.00 / 6) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:54:09 AM EST
    but try americablog.  in my recent experience the was you tell if Aravosis is lying is if he is typing.

    Parent
    Here's one. (5.00 / 7) (#25)
    by wurman on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:55:38 AM EST
    Update [2008-2-9 22:10:28 by Big Tent Democrat]: After its egregious journalism on this story, TPM NOW compounds it by simply lying. Yes, I am calling TPM liars. Their LATEST headline Says "Clinton Backs Off Firing Demand." They NEVER demanded it. ONLY TPM said FALSELY they demanded it. Shame on TPM. Shame on Josh Marshall. Disgraceful work.

    Parent
    that was his interpretation (3.00 / 4) (#39)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00:28 AM EST
    of the wording, I didn't agree with it but calling him a liar might be a stretch.  How about lacking in objectivity and allowing his personal beliefs to impede in comprehending a simple statement?  

    Parent
    I stand by my characterization (5.00 / 5) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:02:53 AM EST
    Absolutely! (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by wurman on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:07:38 AM EST
    This is tiresome.

    Parent
    wurman....we need to learn to ignore those (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:12:48 AM EST
    who just come on here to be a PITA...if this person was truly interested in knowing what bloggers lied, which didn't, it/he/she would do their own investigating.

    Parent
    how 'bout (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:17:33 AM EST
    naive child?

    Only...he isn't naive...

    Parent

    ummmm, that'll work! (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:20:44 AM EST
    Huh? Do your own homework, address actual (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:56:10 AM EST
    ... arguments.

    I'm not going to be falsely niched into supporting an argument I didn't make or search the site as you are apparently too lazy to do.

    Parent

    So, Obama bloggers were "lying" (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by A DC Wonk on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:11:40 AM EST
    but all the Hillary bloggers were 100% the truth?

    That doesn't quite sound grounded in reality.

    Parent

    Very true (5.00 / 6) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:14:36 AM EST
    But I feel able to point to every post I have made at this site and defy anyone to point to where I deliberately told a falsehood or did not correct an error as soon as I discovered it.

    But there certainly were Hillary supporting blogs that were the mirror image of the A-List Obama blogs. The difference being that, like TalkLeft, they were not A-List blogs.  

    Parent

    Please (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:16:09 AM EST
    name an instance of a warped hideous lie that any Hillary blogger ever passed on that matched:

    The RFK incident
    The Drudge/Muslim garb incident
    The Mickey Kantor incident
    The WVWV voter supporession incident

    I'm waiting.

    Parent

    Ummm (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:17:14 AM EST
    You know there were some. Don't become that you can not abide.

    Parent
    Then (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:18:35 AM EST
    feel free to name them.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#98)
    by Steve M on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:24:15 AM EST
    Any time someone didn't accept WORM, they were lying!  Those are the rules.

    In reality, while I mostly agree with BTD, the way it works in politics is that it's natural to presume bad faith on the part of the opposing candidate.  So when they commit a gaffe and outrage ensues, it's hard to separate the people who are genuinely outraged because they gravitated to the most offensive interpretation from those who understand what was intended but are just pretending to be outraged to score a point.

    Parent

    Great point: (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by A little night musing on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:42:06 AM EST
    "it's natural to presume bad faith on the part of the opposing candidate"

    I have been arguing, literally since 1970, that it's not a good strategy to attribute bad faith to the people you disagree with (if you ever intend to change their minds or even work with them again).

    But it's true, this is a kind of knee-jerk reaction that is easy to fall into.

    Parent

    but the sane part of your mind (none / 0) (#128)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:43:26 AM EST
    must remember that it's superficial.

    Parent
    You think what the Obama campaign (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:44:55 AM EST
    and bloggers engaged in was superficial?
    I'd have to disagree with you on that score.

    Parent
    well in a way it is the most superficial political (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:50:15 AM EST
    organization on the planet.

    the damage they may have done to the middle term prospects of the party are proabably incalculable.

    Parent

    More lies (none / 0) (#179)
    by zebedee on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:51:43 AM EST
    Of course it depends on what you "lie" means. Topically, was it a lie when they falseley smeared Hillary as being somehow linked to the Countrywide scandals?

    Another common "lie" was that she called for FL to be counted only because she won it. She called for this BEFORE the vote with Obama on the ballot and even some advantage thru the cable ads.

    Th efrequent repetition of Bill calling Obama's campaign a fairy tale is such an obvious distortion to count as a lie.

    And the most effective "lie" may be that she launched a negative campaign against Obama though I believe the negative stuff started with the "drivers' license" debate when they started piling on Clinton. I don't recall anything negative she said about him before that.

    Parent

    No one said that except you (none / 0) (#188)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:01:59 PM EST
    The fraud is entirely on you and of your own making: you are demanding that people defend an outrageous position attributed to them BY YOU.

    It would be more efficient for you not to attempt this deflection and instead to address specific statements or positions.

    Parent

    Two words (1.00 / 0) (#31)
    by Ovah on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:58:38 AM EST

    sniper fire

    Parent

    You mean the Obama bloggers (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00:27 AM EST
    were pretending to care about that? Yup.

    Heck, you'd think HIllary claimed to invent the internet or something.

    Parent

    Two more words. (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by liminal on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:03:46 AM EST
    Austin Goolsbee.

    Three more words:

    Harry and Louise.

    Hey!  I can play that game too!

    Parent

    sniper fire (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:08:08 AM EST
    the only outright lie (none / 0) (#167)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:34:43 AM EST
    from Clinton that I am aware of is the "sniper fire" comment.  And, at the time, I was still reading HuffPo.  The same article from the WashPost that discussed her Bosnia lie (titled something about politicians penchant for embellishing their records) also discussed the FACT that Obama lied twice by taking public credit for two senate bills that he had nothing to do with.  But, all the uproar was about Hillary lying about her Bosnia record.  But, where was the uproar about Obama lying about his senate accomplishments to his constituents?  Which is worse, Clinton lying about the ground conditions upon her arrival in Bosnia as First Lady or Obama lying about his accomplishments as a Senator?  And the only reasons I can think of for the minimal amount of coverage of Obama's lies is because they didn't come with video footage or the media was covering for him.

    All of this lopsided coverage meant that many people actually believe that Clinton LIED about SCHIP, N. Ireland, her personal opposition to NAFTA and they use the Bosnia story as proof of the others even though she provided substantiation of her version of events for all the others from different third parties.  But, these other events were always widely cited as proof that Clinton is a liar.

    Parent

    so, I will submit (none / 0) (#182)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:53:12 AM EST
    that ANY blog that claimed:

    Clinton lied about her role in N. Ireland was lying because her version of her role was supported by fmr Sen G. Mithcell who led the talks and his opinion should trump anyone else's.

    Clinton lied about her role in SCHIP was lying because factcheck.org said she was telling the truth and Sen Kennedy was quoted, at the time, saying that SCHIP would never had passed into law without the work she did.  These trump any other opinions.

    Clinton lied about her "personal" opposition to NAFTA was lying.  Several other members of the Clinton admin backed her up on this.  And, it is completely logical to have been personally opposed to NAFTA but once the admin decides to go with it then she as a member of the admin had to support it.  That doesn't negate her stated personal opposition.  

    She also said that she started speaking against NAFTA when she became a Senator.  The Obama campaign and blogs lied about that as well saying she didn't start to speak out against NAFTA until after starting her run for president.  But, when confronted with earlier quotes from her about NAFTA, then the LIARS would just claim she statred running for president as soon as she became a senator and not when she officially announced.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:44:10 AM EST
    it was within the context of a family fight. Many of the A listers honestly didn't believe that any Democrat could support Hillary Clinton. So it wasn't about pols being pols, it was about us being us.

    I have a headache today (5.00 / 17) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:49:12 AM EST
    with all this Joshua generation B.S.  It sickens me.  I was always about the issues but none of the A list Obama bloggers were.  For them it was about the cult of personality and making certain to dismantle their perceived Clinton power structure within the party without regard to what would take its place.  Now something is taking its place and IMHO it is sickening.

    Parent
    Bingo (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by joanneleon on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:44:11 AM EST

    making certain to dismantle their perceived Clinton power structure within the party without regard to what would take its place.


    Parent
    Joshua generation (5.00 / 0) (#142)
    by kelsweet on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:54:55 AM EST
    and the Matthew (project?)   the first ever dem religious PAC.....  from one of last night's posts. Disturbing indeed.

    Parent
    Of course Joshua (none / 0) (#132)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:47:15 AM EST
    was a sort of Inspector General of the forerunner fo the IDF.

    some light infantry here, slingers there, swordsman on the middle, sappers hanging around waiting for sieges, no cavalry though.  Or Chariots.   The Israelites must have been mountain warfare specialists.  They seemed to do okay against Phalanxes of bronze age heavy infantry which was quite an unusual accomplishment for the time).

     

    Parent

    Horns blaring. (none / 0) (#177)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:50:20 AM EST
    Good thing, then (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by Emma on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:52:50 AM EST
    I understand the difference between chosen family and family of origin.  This is not the family I choose.

    Parent
    Me either! (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:58:39 AM EST
    And Grandma Vera is rolling over in her crypt.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by Lahdee on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:49:03 AM EST
    Ain't politics wonderful?

    The unity pony is shocked I tell you shocked!
    And the children, oh the children - tantrum and rage - bring us that elusive dream and reality be d**mned.


    romper room (5.00 / 10) (#15)
    by Turkana on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:52:37 AM EST
    has been oranger.

    hate to keep picking on that, but then i hate that it devolved into something so easy to pick on. quantity over quality, and it's all good...

    Wait - Yglesias now says (5.00 / 9) (#33)
    by catfish on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:59:42 AM EST
    Obama was dishonest, just like the rest of them. Did he ever point this out before?

    Not that I recall (5.00 / 5) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:01:32 AM EST
    Had to read the quote a couple times (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by catfish on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:12:52 AM EST
    before that sunk in. And he writes for the Atlantic Monthly!

    Honestly, I met him once he's a nice guy, but other than going to Harvard I don't see what separates him from the rest, other than he's young.

    Parent

    CYA mode (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by magisterludi on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:10:04 AM EST
    starting a little early?

    Parent
    magisterludi....you ain't seen nothing yet! (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:15:08 AM EST
    They can't stop insulting Hillary, even when (5.00 / 10) (#34)
    by Joelarama on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00:04 AM EST
    she has endorsed Obama willingly.  She's listed along with all the Republicans.

    I'm coming around to agree that these bloggers want to chase off the Clinton wing, or at least bully those who voted for her into silence.


    Indeed (5.00 / 6) (#43)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:01:13 AM EST
    They don't know when to stop.

    Parent
    well, some are offering ponies (5.00 / 5) (#78)
    by Turkana on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:16:26 AM EST
    to those who stayed and put up with lies and abuse "with grace"...

    Parent
    ponies (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:31:57 AM EST
    they're awfully expensive to keep.

    Parent
    i learned long ago (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by Turkana on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:34:45 AM EST
    that when it comes to lies and abuse, don't look for ponies, look for a door.

    Parent
    butbutbut...They're all for that 50 state strategy (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by kempis on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:17:00 AM EST
    At least nominally.

    I hear that Obama will be the first candidate in a generation to have campaign offices in all 50 states.

    Wow....

    Who was the last? McGovern?

    Parent

    kos is setting expectations way beyond (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:21:32 AM EST
    where they should be:

    heavy African American populations in Mississippi and Georgia can put those states within reach, while continued strong Latino participation in Texas could likewise throw the Lone Star State into contention,  forcing the McCain campaign to play even wider defense than this map would suggest.

    Know how many of those states will flip? 0, that's how many. And any reasonable person knows it.

    And I apologize for drifting off topic.

    Parent

    wow BIG claims. (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:48:32 AM EST
    If there was a centrist third party I could believe the claim.

    Parent
    The OT drift is my fault. And I agree. :-) (none / 0) (#101)
    by kempis on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25:04 AM EST
    Why Is Obama Ignoring The Other (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:31:15 AM EST
    7 states? <snark>

    Parent
    Those 7 are the Appalachian ones... (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by tree on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:59:45 AM EST
    (I'll see your snark and raise you one.)

    Parent
    LOL Good Raise n/t (none / 0) (#151)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:03:02 AM EST
    Insulting Obama Too (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by daring grace on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:13:58 AM EST
    Look...there's his name on that list that leads off with a bunch of Republicans and also names Clinton.

    Except HIS name is listed before hers, closer to the Republicans'. Does that make it more of a slight to him implying he is more Republican? Or more of a slight to her because his name is first?

    C'mon!

    Parent

    You're quite right. I glossed right over that (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Joelarama on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:22:17 AM EST
    when reading.  I put it to carb withdawal.  Day 2 of South Beach.

    Parent
    Good point (none / 0) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:15:17 AM EST
    I can't believe they can't let it go. (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by eleanora on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:16:50 AM EST
    The media and big liberal blogs can't seem to accept that they've won, FFS. They're still talking endlessly about what an evil witch Hillary is and how much she and everyone who voted for her sucks, sprinkled with nasty ageist comments against McCain.

    I'm starting to think that they're uncomfortable about how this worked out, especially with the endless refrain that Obama "beat her fair and square." Constantly repeating that makes them sound like the Republicans after Bush v. Gore was handed down. I want to hand them all pacifiers and blankies and tell them to go take a nap until they feel better.

    Parent

    The Leno-ization of the political world (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:51:36 AM EST
    Come back Hillary we need to beat you some more!

    Parent
    This utterly chaps me today too (5.00 / 6) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:12:31 AM EST
    so can I please vent?  I used to fight with Troutfishing about religion in the military.  It shows up from time to time, particularly under this administration because people get a hand slap for preaching in uniform right now.  It isn't a huge problem though and soldiers who are atheist or of another faith tell plenty of evangelicals to shut up.  As far as religious beliefs being written into military doctrine, my own husband has written some portions of some things in his field and that is how it happens.  Some soldier is deemed "expert" in this or that area and is told to revamp the doctrine and they do.  If something doesn't pass the smell test complaining to TRADOC usually gets anything offensive checked out and removed.  You would never have known such a thing was possible though reading a Troutfishing diary at Orange.  Now Troutfishing's candidate for President has gone all practicing Christian in the oval office and he wants to command the deadliest military on the planet.  Where is the Troutfishing diary on this?!

    You can pray for it (5.00 / 7) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:16:16 AM EST
    and see if that will make it appear.

    Parent
    click click click... (5.00 / 7) (#92)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:21:22 AM EST
    ::shuts eyes real tight::

    There's no place like home...there's no place like home...

    ::peeks::

    Are we there yet?

    Parent

    Give me a sneaky coward for a general (none / 0) (#140)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:53:23 AM EST
    like Ulysses rather than a pious fanatic like General Charles Gordon.

    Parent
    Look for the diary... (4.40 / 5) (#88)
    by dianem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:19:45 AM EST
    ...right in between the outraged diary about how Obama is threatening war with Iran and the equally outraged one about his use of political insiders to win the campaign.

    (okay, I'll be good - I just had to get that out of my system)

    Parent

    I'm laughing (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by A little night musing on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:26:26 AM EST
    ...so I won't cry.

    Parent
    Politicians are politicians... (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by dianem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:16:31 AM EST
    ...except when they are harbingers of hope, change, and unity and inspirational leaders who promise a brighter future for all Americans.

    Not Mutually Exclusive (none / 0) (#129)
    by daring grace on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:43:32 AM EST
    as far as I'm concerned.

    As an Obama supporter, I do believe in his potential for making change, inspiring hope etc. Time (and his succeeding in getting elected) will tell. I HOPE he will produce the results he promises, some of them, but I'm not going to be surprised if he doesn't quite.

    I also know he's a politician with all that term carries. I see politicians on a spectrum. For me, Obama is at a distance from pols like Bush. Clinton, even though I never supported her candidacy is clearly at that end of the spectrum as well (i.e. far removed from the Bush end.)

    But at the end of the day, yeah, Obama is a politician. So? There is a robust tradition of pols inspiring hope and enacting change.

    Parent

    Sorry - you may think they are not (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:10:36 AM EST
    mutually exclusive, but the candidate you support delivered a message that they were - it's what enabled him to attack Clinton as the representative of politics as usual and the same old Washington-insider club.  He put himself on the other end of the spectrum by declaring, essentially, that only he could deliver on the promise of hope and change because he was the only one who wasn't "really" a politician.

    As for that robust tradition, well, I agree that there is one, but I do not see Obama having much luck with it, mainly because he is all over the place and it's becoming harder and harder to understand what it is he's looking to change and what it is that people are supposed to be inspired to do - other than vote for him instead of the other guy.

    Parent

    Different Lenses (none / 0) (#165)
    by daring grace on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:32:28 AM EST
    What I see Obama promoting is reform of the standard operating procedure in Washington and, as I said, time will tell whether he can do anything about it. First, he has to get elected.

    He positions himself as a better candidate to achieve that because he, unlike Clinton, has not been part of the culture as long. Which also serves her in her argument that he's "not as ready" to lead as she and John McCain.

    I gather that you strongly repudiate Obama and his candidacy. And that, in your eyes, he can't ever measure up to Senator Clinton. Fair enough. But if you really see him positioned at the Bush side of the political spectrum, I question the lens you're using. It is distorting what's there.

    Parent

    I'm guessing here that you (none / 0) (#169)
    by tree on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:37:57 AM EST
    are misinterpreting "other side of the spectrum". I don't think Anne was lumping Obama in with Bush. She was making the point that Obama was(is) marketing himself as being a Washington outsider as opposed to an insider(thus, other side of the spectrum). Thus when he admits or shows that he is in fact like any other pol, it negates his marketing and proves him no different from Clinton on that score.

    Parent
    That Could Be (none / 0) (#186)
    by daring grace on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:58:20 AM EST
    I assumed she was referring to my point that politicians are not all the same and that some, like Obama and Clinton reside at one end of a spectrum and some, like Bush are at the other end, the one that advocates unconstitutional abuses of power and international adventuring.

    Parent
    I thought when I said that (none / 0) (#201)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:33:58 PM EST
    he put himself on the other end of the spectrum that "from Bush" was implicit, but apparently not.

    He established where he was on the spectrum and ran on it with a vengeance, but unfortunately, many of his actions and tactics just scream "old-style" politics.

    As far as where he really is on the spectrum, I don't however, see him as being as far removed from Bush as you do, but that has more to do with his right-leaning tendencies and this latest desire to "reach out" to the evangelicals.

    Obama may not have been part of the DC culture for as long, but I would defy anyone to suggest that the Chicago political scene of which he was a part is anything but old-style - and people seem to forget that.

    Parent

    I've been trying for some time now (5.00 / 8) (#86)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:18:53 AM EST
    to figure out what makes it impossible - or at least very difficult - for those with their eyes wide open in adoration to also be able to distinguish fact from fiction, truth from lies; is it that the light that emanates from their candidate blinds them, or what?

    Yglesias' comment is laugh-out-loud funny, given that he and the other Obama worshippers completely bought the line that Obama was a new kind of candidate, he was the antithesis of "old-style" politics; Obama decreed it, and it was so.  

    The image of Yglesias and Markos and Aravosis and Marshall running naked through the blogosphere bragging about their beautiful clothes - it's what the word "priceless" was created for.


    My guess (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:25:38 AM EST
    I'm going to go with groupthink.

    In order to make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms that are indicative of groupthink (1977).

       1. Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.
       2. Rationalising warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.
       3. Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.
       4. Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.
       5. Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".
       6. Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
       7. Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.
       8. Mindguards -- self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.



    Parent
    Isn't this (none / 0) (#166)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:33:25 AM EST
    some of what Orwell warned against in Animal Farm?

    Parent
    Scary!!!!!! (none / 0) (#168)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:37:20 AM EST
    See also extreme examples (none / 0) (#171)
    by tree on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:40:52 AM EST
    such as the Glorious Cultural Revolution in China, and, going really extreme, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#175)
    by Step Beyond on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:48:22 AM EST
    I believe it was.

    Parent
    "Nobody finds this (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by A little night musing on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:23:26 AM EST
    particularly shocking."

    That's why it's been such a calm, may I say even boring, past few months on the road to the Democratic nomination. Because everyone recognizes that pols are pols, and BTD is the prophet of us all. [/snark]

    Anyone else feel as if we've entered an alternate reality?

    OT: BTD, you said a few days ago that BSG was getting freaky, and I just got to see episode 9 last night - have to agree. (Don't know which is freakier right now, BSG or the "left" blogosphere!}

    This is such an obvious point that (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:24:59 AM EST
    I fear others are loath to make it, but JL's game is that he asks you to do something which would take 20 hours of research to do passably well----at a minimum---and then complains when you can't do it in 2 minutes.
    Sorry, not interested.

    everyone (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:25:33 AM EST
    has the "obamablogs are lying or naive" point covered.

    I still have issues with the pols are pols paradigm.  I mean duh, thats what they are, why even feingold, cleland took up the occupation merely known as politics.  

    I've been thinking about this too... (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by santarita on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:49:27 AM EST
    I take it as a given that politicians will say most anything to get elected and that promises on the campaign trail should usually be understood as promises to try to do something.  So how to select a candidate if what they say must be taken with a grain of salt?  For me, I look at the record of the candidate because past performance is a good indicator and then I look at his or her advisors.  Without a record to examine, then selecting a candidate becomes little better than throwing a dart blindfolded.  

    Parent
    Actually i don't think Pols promise (5.00 / 0) (#144)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:56:18 AM EST
    anything. They try to give the appearance of promising things much more than they actually do so.
    I take the actual promises of a candidate quite seriously. For example, if candidate A says, "I will remove X number of troops from Iraq in the first 100 days", I take that as a commitment of some strength.
    Bush Sr. had that problem. He promised not to raise taxes so explicitly that he suffered politically when that promise was broken.
    Now, I think politicians rarely make real promises on the campaign trail, precisely for this reason.
    It is the way they waffle which can give cause for concern----viz., Obama's comments on Social Security, or his dismissive attitude towards government regulation.

    What I liked about Edwards' candidacy was that he laid much more on the line that is typical, to such an extent that I could trust his commitment to UHC, because of the politics.

    It should go without saying that what a candidate has on his website conveys very little commitment to the policies contained there, per se.

    Parent

    Promises, with reservations (none / 0) (#197)
    by santarita on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:11:54 PM EST
    When I hear a candidate make promises, the first thing I ask myself is whether the candidate on his or her own, without the compliance with Congress, can deliver on the promise.  If he or she can't deliver, then I take it as an implied "I promise to use my best efforts...".  Most of their promises fall within that category.

    But you're right, sometimes a candidate will make commitments that are without reservation, implied or otherwise.  

    Parent

    You are attributing statements YOU invented (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:27:30 AM EST
    ... and that no one here has made, yet refuse to investigate the research that people kindly provided (that you were too lazy to find on your own, despite easy access).

    Now you're not only insulting people's efforts, but inventing statements to afford you the false position of insulting them further as "equally" lying.

    In short, you're a liar and troll.

    What is your problem? You have contributed (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:31:30 AM EST
    not one piece of information, not one observation of any interest, nothing but insults. You don't even discuss the candidates. You just seem determined to play a game wherein you show that the other commenters are not as smart as you.
    Guess what---that is a game you could play for years and never progress in.
    Try sticking to the issues, please.

    the issue (2.60 / 5) (#123)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:36:58 AM EST
    was very clear, "Obama blogs lied" you seem to have a proclivity for accepting any opinion that is in line with yours and reject any that does not.  I see a statement like this and I prefer specifics.  I even volunteered to contact said bloggers to get an explanation.  You jibberjab about nothing and whine a lot.  
    This site used to be a place for great discourse, it has become a misery club for a few blathering knuckleheads.  Keep making blanket statements and silly attacks and I will keep challenging them, it is that simple.

    Parent
    The one making blanket statements is you. (3.66 / 3) (#126)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:41:37 AM EST
    Go away, and improve TL measurably.

    Parent
    Bill Clinton's (5.00 / 6) (#117)
    by Marco21 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:32:54 AM EST
    fairytale comment was deliberately taken out fo context and used as a hammer against Hillary and Bill.

    Ask Arianna. She knows all about it.

    (Sorry, just tossing my 2 cents in)

    It continues (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Manuel on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:34:18 AM EST
    Take this post.  It certainly goes against party unity, particularly the comments.  In fact, I wonder if all those commenting are Democrats.  The main post itself, however, exagerates the original story which merely points out that in politics one needs to reward those who have helped you in the past.  Shocking.  I don't know if this post counts as a lie but it is certainly dishonest.

    Written By Kos himself (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by Mrwirez on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:41:08 AM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/6g7kx3

    "What's more, Clinton was the only top-tier candidate to refuse the ultimate Iowa and New Hampshire pander by removing her name from the Michigan ballot. That makes her essentially the de facto winner since Edwards and Obama, caving to the cry babies in Iowa and New Hampshire, took their name off Michigan's ballot. Sure, the DNC has stripped Michigan of its delegates, but that won't last through the convention. The last thing Democrats can afford is to alienate swing states like Michigan and Florida by refusing to seat their delegates.

    So while Obama and Edwards kneecap their chances of winning, Clinton is single-mindedly focused on the goal."

    http://tinyurl.com/6q4y78

    "I know that this is all posturing for Clinton's VP hopes, but I wish Clinton surrogates would stop with the dishonest talking points. It really is time to move on.

    The ONLY way Clinton can claim a popular vote victory is to 1) count the Soviet-style Michigan election results, 2) give Obama zero votes in the state, and 3) ignore the caucus states.


    Is it me or did that blogger and site rapidly change their tune???


    did voters in MI (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:02:16 AM EST
    vote for Clinton?  YES they did.  Did voters in MI vote for Obama?  NO they didn't.  They didn't have the choice because of Obama's decision.  Did the state of MI certify the results of their election?  YES they did.

    The DNC may have the power to steal delegates and allocate delegates that were NOT earned.  But, they have no power to allocate VOTES.

    If Obama wanted to earn actual VOTES in MI, he had two choices:

    1. leave his name on the ballot
    2. support the efforts that were made to hold a re-vote.

    He chose to do neither.

    Parent
    Are You From MI? (none / 0) (#152)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:06:43 AM EST
    Because they do not seem to have their knickers in a twist, so why should you?

    The latest Rasmussen Reports poll in Michigan shows Barack Obama attracting 45% of the vote while John McCain earns 42%. This is the fourth poll in Michigan since McCain wrapped up the Republican nomination and all four have found the candidates within three points of each other. In both May and late-March McCain held a statistically insignificant one-point lead.

    Rasmussen

    Parent

    You think voters from other states should not (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by MarkL on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:07:42 AM EST
    care about vote theft in MI?
    That's an odd notion, to me.

    Parent
    Concern? (3.00 / 2) (#158)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:15:03 AM EST
    That is hilarious. The only concern that you have ever expressed here is that Obama be exposed for the fake that you believe him to be and that Hillary be granted the nomination.

    Your concern for voters rights is hollow at best.

    Parent

    I really don't give a rats a$$ what happens to MI (none / 0) (#162)
    by Mrwirez on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:24:30 AM EST
    from here on out. I am simply replying to the maniac who was asking about Obama's bloggers lying. I have no dog in this fight.... my candidate is now history, partly because of Obama's illegal delegates from MI and the wimpy DNC roolz. Had Florida and Michigan counted all along, I strongly feel we would have a DIFFERENT nominee.

    PS. I will not be voting for Obama or McCain, I joined The New American Independent Party.

    Parent

    Also we read about (5.00 / 6) (#133)
    by joanneleon on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:48:17 AM EST
    the "Hillaryification" of Michelle Obama.  All of a sudden, such treatment is a problem to the Obamanetroots.  Hypocrites.

    Maybe, just maybe (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by A little night musing on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:55:17 AM EST
    this will wake the rest of us up to how much misogyny is still a problem (and still acceptable) in this country?

    Dare I hope?

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    Actually (none / 0) (#160)
    by daring grace on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:23:30 AM EST
    There are many of us Obamanetroots folks who were vocally outraged at the demonization of Hillary Clinton as First Lady which is what I take that term to refer to--here comes another empowered, opinionated woman for the right wing to target.

    In fact, their gnawing on their own livers at the mere idea of her was part of what made me support her first run for the senate here. Shove this strong, effective woman right down their throats.

    And no, I won't tolerate seeing it done to another woman who threatens their sense of a woman's place or who they elect to fashion into their own font-of-everything-evil.

    Parent

    The problem (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by nellre on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:54:12 AM EST
    Our media's  failure to expose what's true and what is not.
    Daily Howler
    Nearly all the media enabled Obama and hung Hillary out to dry.

    can we keep a decent level here? (5.00 / 3) (#146)
    by noholib on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:59:07 AM EST
    I've just skimmed this thread, and it sure isn't up to the quality that I was used to here.  Please site moderators: don't allow an exchange of approximately  10 to 15 posts going back and forth that essentially repeats the same insults and attacks.  I know there's been a news vacuum these past few days compared to what we were used to when the primary was in full swing.  But really, this blog isn't going to be worth reading if this continues.  

    Although not a lie (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:02:47 AM EST
    One prediction that did not happen. Marcos predicted that Hillary would run out of money (true) and that her campaign would implode early and she would have to quit. Interesting that she actually got stronger after February. It was amazing to watch her become who she wanted to be.I am very proud that she carried on for herself and for all women. I don't know how she ever was able to take the constant barrage of insults from blogs and the MSM. History will one day look at this very unfavorably. I also might add, although many NEW members joined the A List Blogs, I believe that a lot of respect was lost for the netroot's really big opportunity to act like adults. They came acoss as crude, shrill, disrespectful and more carnival like and thus it seemed like mob rule. I had always thought the bloggers were so above the lying fray, but in the end, they were like everybody else sprewing false information.

    yep (5.00 / 4) (#161)
    by kempis on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:23:46 AM EST
    I also might add, although many NEW members joined the A List Blogs, I believe that a lot of respect was lost for the netroot's really big opportunity to act like adults. They came acoss as crude, shrill, disrespectful and more carnival like and thus it seemed like mob rule. I had always thought the bloggers were so above the lying fray, but in the end, they were like everybody else sprewing false information.

    And if they're really interested in "unity," they might begin with some admissions that their predictions about Cruella DeClinton were all WAY off the mark. She graciously suspended her campaign, threw her support behind Obama, has encouraged her supporters to do the same. She didn't steal ONE pledged delegate (but Obama got two).

    The Superdelegates didn't override the will of the people and hand the nomination to Hillary. The ignored the will of the people after March 1 and flocked to Obama despite Hillary's wins in PA, IN, WV, KY, etc., tipping the nomination to him even though she out-gained him in popular votes since March 1 by 600,000.

    By the standards of the BloggerBoyz, Obama stole the election. But I don't want to push them too hard. Just hearing them admit that maybe they went a little over-the-top in vilifying Hillary would help. A little.


    Parent

    how would you know ... (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:07:04 AM EST
    since you admit yourself tat you don't read the other blogs?

    You aren't making much sense.

    I guess you could logically state that you don't know whether Obama blogs lied or not.  But to make your own blanket statement that it is false to say they lied when you have NEVER READ AN OBAMA BLOG just doesn't make much sense.

    This example is a classic Sky Pagoda (5.00 / 7) (#157)
    by wurman on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:12:45 AM EST
    It's one thing to lie.  It's quite another thing to call someone else a liar (falsely) & then fabricate a baseless lie to support the call-out.

    Somerby, Howler (link), on Drum, Marshall & Black via his takedown of the newsprint hacks:

    BRODER/TONER (6/9/08): [SNIP]
    But she also made comments that divided voters along racial lines, stretched the facts and last month raised the specter of assassination as a justification for remaining in the race to the bitter end despite a mathematical near-certainty that she had lost weeks earlier.
    Wow! According to Broder and Toner, Clinton "raised the specter of assassination....

    Second up was Michael Kinsley, who didn't seem to hate the lying at all. On Sunday, he bravely said this in the New York Times, knowing that Kevin and Josh and Duncan and all good pseudo-liberal house-brokens have accepted this evil conduct for years: "[A]t the end, when her own clumsy comment about Bobby Kennedy being assassinated in June was willfully misinterpreted to suggest that she was wishing that fate on her opponent, it served her right."

    [my emphasis on the reference to bloggers]

    Now, on to Duncan Black, Eschaton (link):

    Like Scott, I think the Bobby Kennedy gaffe was less of a big deal than some are making, but it has finally gotten some people to point out that the various historical comparisons the Clinton campaign is making are in the "isn't it great that people are so stupid that they'll swallow this [hors----t]" category. It did not take her husband until June to effectively have the nomination, and the 1968 primary season started much later than this one.

    We've had little but dumb arguments like this from the Clinton campaign for some time. I'm not entirely sure if they're stupid enough to believe them, or if they just assume we're stupid enough to believe them. Either way I'm tired of having my intelligence insulted.
    -Atrios 12:45


    [my italics & edit of expletive]

    When did Bill Clinton clinch the 1992 nomination?
    Fact Check posts (link):

    Hillary Clinton is correct to say that Bill Clinton didn't officially clinch the nomination until June of 1992.

    But then even Fact Check has to fudge the analysis with a parsing of what Hillary didn't say.
    But he had it in the bag months before, despite the fact that primaries and caucuses were held weeks later than at present.

    It did take Bill Clinton until June 2, 1992 to clinch the nomination--precisely & exactly as Sen. Clinton stated.  Atrios initially posted a false interpretation of the RFK "psuedo gaffe" & then fabricated a false back story to deflect his own mendacity toward the Clinton campaign.  His intelligence is insulted, all right, because the sequence of events & comments indicated that he's too dumb to follow & accurately comprehend what took place.

    Somberby chases this type of blatant lying all the time.  Read daily.  Then you won't have the need to question statements by Big Tent & the commenters here at Talk Left who at least attempt to make true statements--and there is always a great deal of corrective comment by the other commenters!

    wurman, great comment... (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:19:28 AM EST
    but a complete waste of your time IMO. This entire thread is blatantly hijacked, pathetic and disingenuous, and nothing will be done about it. These people KNOW about the lies, they just don't care and they're never going to admit how dishonest the blogs have been. The only point to this entire thread hijacking is try to save face and spin their way out of going along with the lies. Give it up, don't waste your time is my advice. You can tell from the very beginning that this is a disingenuous 'conversation' - it's only point is to obfuscate and belittle people.

    Parent
    Sometimes I chase a thing down . . . (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by wurman on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:47:32 AM EST
    . . . in order to re-assure myself that the general drift of my thoughts are accurate.

    The livingston trollery tripped a Somerby switch in my mind, so I went to yesterday's Howler and tracked the whole thing back to sources.  It was a good exercise for me.  I didn't bother with the Josh Marshall & Kevin Drum bu$hwa--they're well documented here at Talk Left.  Atrios sometimes gets a degree of respect; it's unwarranted.

    Big Tent once commented on the notion that a person could probably write a story every other day about Washington Monthly's lies, falsehoods & mis-statements.  Marshall & TPM have become a parody of his original intent--it now looks like a lame stream media gig.

    Anyway, it just seemed like a long, careful look at where Somerby shines the light would be useful.

    The problem is keystroking, cutting & pasting, posting, etc., & taking up so much bandwidth to bash a troll.  But, perhaps, every now & then it's good to demonstrate for other more neutral commenters here why some trolls are just daft.

    Parent

    Actually, I think you're right (none / 0) (#180)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:52:40 AM EST
    Because, even though you'll never get an honest response or a change of mind from those who are committed to dishonesty, your post is very valuable to others. I really appreciated it for it's comprehensiveness and coherency. So... I take it back - it was a good use of time!

    Parent
    yes, it is important to me (none / 0) (#200)
    by kelsweet on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:17:50 PM EST
    Kudos Wurman I truly appreciate the time you took to look this up, and I see it happening right this minute on MSNBC, I am hoping that they will get called out on it. They are now blaming the McCain camp of planting falsehoods on the NYT's and the reporter from NYT was there saying it is absolutely not true. That he did the research and it is his own words.... not "planted" by the McC camp.

    Parent
    I Am Surprised Dr Molly (none / 0) (#184)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:54:30 AM EST
    If someone here said that the Hillary bloggers were lying wouldn't you take offense and ask for specific examples, because the Hillary bloggers would include you. And I have noticed that you do not take it lightly when someone calls you a liar.

    Parent
    Hey squeaky (none / 0) (#191)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:07:25 PM EST
    I just think it's a ridiculous strawman to pretend that many of the 'progressive' blogs did not engage in horrible dishonesty and distortions at this point. I think this whole thread hijacking, with calls to 'prove there were lies' is just plain stupid. Anyone with half a brain knows what went on at these blogs at this point, and this hijacking was clearly only meant to stir up trouble.

    You and I can agree to disagree on this but that's what I think. And I think these Obama supporters/Hillary supporters comparisons are false equivalencies.

    Parent

    It Is About Blanket Statements (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:47:05 PM EST
    Many is waaaaay different than all. Stir up trouble, for who. Ardent do or die Hillary supporters are not the only ones who comment on this site. They do not own the dialogue here.

    And if you somehow think that the only extremists in the game are Obama supporters you are kidding yourself. Yes, I understand that if you think Hillary is the greatest and Obama is an empty suit it would be hard to see that calling Obama an empty suit is extreme, much the same as saying that Hillary is a pathological liar.

    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#193)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:08:13 PM EST
    And I'm not a 'hillary blogger', whatever that's supposed to mean.

    Parent
    I read less time now..... (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:29:01 AM EST
    There is a long list of political blogs I can no longer read. Haven't taken them all off my bookmarks yet but I am amazed at how many blogs where I used to go for news and commentary, ones where I trusted the research where I can no longer trust.
    dKos was the first to go - where just being a woman on the site would get you shouted off.
    Americablog, Huffington Post.

    Especially disappointing was Pam's House Blend who lost all rationality in the throes of Obama-love and TPM where I used to love the muckraking which turned to muck itself.

    Firedoglake I can still read, though I was disappointed in the Hillary-hate there.
    I still love EmptyWheel and TalkLeft.

    It's kinda hard to..... (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Kefa on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:38:15 AM EST
    call off the dogs once they have been let loose.

    Obama's more rabid supporters (none / 0) (#185)
    by eleanora on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:55:05 AM EST
    are going to be one of his biggest GE drawbacks, IMO. They're horrible on the Internet, but I got blindsided by two RL supporters yesterday when I said I would never vote R but was taking a wait-and-see approach on Obama and VPwhoever. They started out attacking McCain, then made remarks about bloody coat hangers, and ended that I was helping kill millions in Iraq. I'm used to that language online now, but I felt quite intimidated, possibly because they were both men and quite a bit bigger than me. If Obama could just train his supporters to sit down when they're talking to the undecided, that would be a big help. And I work with both these guys, can't imagine how I would have felt if they were strangers. I feel like a coward because I made an excuse and left instead of staying to fight.

    Parent
    A legacy commenter. (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:45:43 AM EST


    Say Nothing? (2.33 / 3) (#135)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 10:49:14 AM EST
    No, he say two things, Obama horrible, Hillary great, over 3190 times since he arrived here at the end of November 2007.

    I don't think much has changed! (none / 0) (#4)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 09:45:36 AM EST


    Can we please have a group of Outraged Donors To (none / 0) (#181)
    by Christy1947 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 11:52:56 AM EST
    Hillary Clinton now.

    There's a lot of ground to make up to get the bills paid on the Clinton campaign, so that she has a future. The story of a senator who lost a presidential run and had the debt hanging over him for twenty years is not a fantasy. This does not mean typed-out ire on websites over. . . . whatever lights your bulbs or expressions on websites of enduring respect. Respect don't pay those bills. It means dollars in the till for the Primary, people, so that debt can be paid off and not strangle her later. If you want to see her run again, she needs this particular form of help now.

    You Obamaites, I mean you, too.

    I donated extra on June 3 (none / 0) (#198)
    by eleanora on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:12:31 PM EST
    to celebrate her SD win and encourage her to go to Denver and then got an email cancelling my monthly contribution to her campaign. Very honorable, but I was hoping to keep going until I maxed out. Do you know if we donate more to her website, will any of that money go to the DNC or the GE? I'm happy to pay off her debt, proud of every dime I've given, but I'm not encouraging this new party order with my money. Donating directly to good candidates from now on, plus NOW and Planned Parenthood.

    Parent