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Wednesday Afternoon Open Thread

Now that I've wasted my morning watching the vapid View, I'm going to work. I feel like I need to do penance, like write a slew of motions or go to two jails instead of one.

Your turn.

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    Your penance was watching The View (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:28:20 PM EST
    Go get a massage or something!

    The Insanity Of Brazile & Kerrey And Going (5.00 / 7) (#16)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:46:05 PM EST
    out of the box suggesting Hagel as a viable VP option. ht/t Ellie

    Democratic strategist Donna Brazile told Salon. "This is an opportunity to go outside the traditional walls of looking for some kind of geographic or political balance [in a running mate]. The country's in such a mood now, it's in a pickle almost," she added, referring to the possible appeal of the national unity ticket.

    Hagel would also bring some strong credentials, says former Sen. Bob Kerrey, a Democrat and fellow Nebraskan, who ran for president himself in 1992. "He's fun to hang out with, he's got terrific knowledge of foreign policy and national security, and he enjoys the work," Kerrey said. Salon

    Hagel is an extremely CONSERVATIVE Republican. Progressive Punch gives him a score of 9.46%. In fact, he is more conservative than McCain who has a score of 13.89. Health care - Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 9.89. Corporate subsidies - Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 50. Environment -  Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 27.60  Education, Humanities, & the Arts - Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 5. Fair Taxation - Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 17.46.

    Hagel would put choice and every other Democratic value just a heart beat away from being on the line. It would give his positions validity within the Democratic Party. It would also set Hagel up as the future presidential choice in 8 years.

    I sincerely hope this is just spin and Obama's campaign realizes how stupid this would be. I am currently not inclined (subject to change) to vote for Obama but Hagel as VP would be a deal breaker for me and might actually get me to vote for McCain for the reasons stated above. I want a REAL Democratic Party not a Unity08 Party.

    I think the fact that she (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:47:03 PM EST
    is saying this is significant.

    Parent
    I do too, but not because he's going to pick Hagel (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:54:13 PM EST
    I have no admiration for Brazile whatsoever.  What she says has no credibility in terms of facts.  But how she talks about a subject is a decent indicator of how the campaign's thinking is going.

    The fact that she's talking about 'out of the box' stuff to me signals that that's how the campaign is thinking.  It also serves as yet another 'Never Hillary!' warning.   (So wearingly efficient).

    Parent

    yes exactly (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    If it is all for show (4.66 / 3) (#52)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:11:48 PM EST
    I just wish that when they talk about going out of the box, they would talk about someone like Kucinich instead of Hagel.  Why does a 'bold move' always have to be to the right?

    Parent
    I don't understand this line of reasoning (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by standingup on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:56:49 PM EST
    either.  Aside from the problems you note, where does this leave the Dems at the end of an Obama presidency assuming he wins?  They would not be in a position of having a Democratic vice president to run against the Republican candidate.  It would leave the party in a worse position instead of a better one down the road.  

    Parent
    It just seems extremely unlikely that they (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by tigercourse on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:57:11 PM EST
    would pick a conservative Republican as a VP. Pro Choice women would be enraged. Hagel as Sec Defense is bad enough, as VP he would be a disaster.

    Parent
    I wonder how well Obama would have (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:57:26 PM EST
    fared in the primary season had he indicated that while he was running as a Democrat, he was really considering bringing the whole Unity 08 thing to it.

    It's way to Lieberman-esque for my taste.

    Honestly, it makes me want to run for the tin-foil hat when I start thinking things like, "Maybe this is why they are looking to nominate by acclamation and dispense with a ballot, because they know that if there's a ballot and Obama announces Hagel - or some other Republican - as his VP choice, Obama could easily lose as hundreds of Democrats bolt for Clinton."

    Oy.

    Parent

    Yesterday I read somewhere the (4.50 / 2) (#37)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:02:59 PM EST
    pre-paid hotel rooms in Denver intended for Clinton supporters are being cancelled.

    Parent
    youre kidding (4.50 / 2) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:07:09 PM EST
    every day its another reason isnt it?

    Parent
    wait, what do you mean (none / 0) (#47)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:10:01 PM EST
    Who's canceling?  The Clinton supporters, or the DNC is canceling rooms for them?

    Parent
    Found it. LA TImes political blogger. (4.50 / 2) (#60)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:17:11 PM EST
    Hotel rooms were for Clinton campaign workers.  Warning, this blogger is annoying:

    LATIMES blog

    Parent

    didnt care for the tone (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:23:35 PM EST
    and what is this supposed to mean?

    "Too bad the rodeo's not in town"


    Parent

    Very obnoxious (none / 0) (#69)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:26:28 PM EST
    but it does make sense to cancel those rooms, unfortunately.

    From the context I think he just means it would be easier to find takers for those rooms if the rosdeo was also in town that week. But I don't think filling the rooms will be a problem.

    Parent

    Now Updated with... (none / 0) (#117)
    by standingup on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:15:53 PM EST
    (UPDATE: A Clinton campaign spokesman, Jin Chon, now says this report is incorrect and the rooms are not available. So don't bother calling for any.)

    Maybe the LA Times blogger should look to someone other than TMZ for a source.  Or even better, try making a call or two to check out the TMZ story before posting on the story.  

    Parent

    Is this for the FL Clinton Dems (none / 0) (#56)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:12:59 PM EST
    they are replacing with Obama Dems?

    Parent
    He did (none / 0) (#81)
    by dianem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:35:22 PM EST
    Obama has never pretended to be running as a hard core progressive. His supporter's and the right wing have been touting how liberal he is, but he has said all along that he was trying to "reach out" to Republicans and right leaning moderates. Remember "Democrat for a Day"? I think that his campaign toned down the rhetoric when they decided to run as left of Clinton, but what did people think "Unity" meant? It always meant that he was going to try to accommodate the right wing - to unify the nation.

    Parent
    This is the one thing ... (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:59:13 PM EST
    that would make me not vote for Obama.

    But I don't think it's going to happen.  I think it's just to provide cover for the weak, red state Dem they pick.

    They hope everyone will just be so relieved it isn't Hagel.

    Parent

    If he thinks scaring me with Hagel (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:21:00 PM EST
    will make me like Sebelius more, well...not so much.

    Parent
    I didn't say it was a .... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:37:12 PM EST
    good strategy.

    ;)

    Parent

    Hagel talked a good game, like he (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by thereyougo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:44:52 PM EST
    was anti war, yada yada, but when the votes were counted, he voted straight up with GWB for the Iraq war.

    Would Caroline Kennedy agree with this? A Republican? I doubt Hagel has a chance, I don't think he would accept.

    Parent

    I wouldn't be relieved if they pick a weak (none / 0) (#50)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:11:04 PM EST
    red state Dem as VP. IMO the best VP choice for Obama would be Clark. Not the best campaigner in the world but when he talks about Iraq and foreign policy in print and on TV, he, unlike Obama,  knows the subject matter backwards and forwards. Gives details without making it boring and makes real sense.

    Parent
    Please, nominate Hagel! (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:10:35 PM EST
    As a person who could care less if the Dem wins this time (and I literally barely ate or slept during Bush v. Gore), I think it would be an interesting exercise to see what an Obama/Hagel ticket would do to voter behavior.  

    In addition, it will be fun to watch the O-list bloggers suddenly taut the Unity08 schtick.  Now that I don't watch John Stewart or Stephen Colbert anymore, certain blogs are my comedy source.  I will definitely laugh at the "scary coathanger" meme.


    Parent

    O-list bloggers . . . (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:18:49 PM EST
    a new political term could be coined by their contortions, pretzelification.

    Parent
    Way Back When I Use To Frequent The (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:32:20 PM EST
    Big Orange, quite a few people there thought Hagel as VP would be a great idea. Very enthusiastic about it in fact. They of course were the same people who stand Clinton because of her triangulating ways.

    Parent
    Why Do I Always Leave Word Out? Arrrrr (none / 0) (#87)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:42:38 PM EST
    Should read:

    They of course were the same people who couldn't stand Clinton because of her triangulating ways.


    Parent

    The sound you are hearing... (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:28:17 PM EST
    is my head banging on my desk...

    Parent
    It would be stepping right into (4.50 / 2) (#59)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:16:41 PM EST
    the MSM High Broderism trap, where partisanship is a cardinal sin, but only Dems have the responsibility for reaching out to the other side.

    It is exactly the kind of thing Obama has favored all along, so it would not surprise me in the least.

    Parent

    Republican VP (none / 0) (#38)
    by laurie on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    I also heard talk of Colin Powell as VP.
    But maybe he'll pick a Latino-I just don't know.

    Parent
    Powell Is Making Noise That He Might (none / 0) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:44:04 PM EST
    vote for Obama so I don't take talk of him as VP seriously.

    Parent
    good choice if it has to be a military man (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by thereyougo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:49:16 PM EST
    and it has to be to balance Obama's lack of military experience.

    the truth is that GWB has brought the bar down so low, we don't need to raise it much for the next pres. including McSame.

    Parent

    Confused About Your Comment (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:18:06 PM EST
    We were discussing Powell as VP for McCain and not Obama.

    Also, have to admit I'm confused why any Democrat would think that Powell would be a good choice for Obama. Powell more than any person alive had the ability to stop the insanity of the invasion of Iraq. He knew full well what the consequences of that invasion would be but chose to put his loyalty to Bush over the good of the country. Had he chosen to resign in protest, Bush would have found it almost impossible to sell the invasion here in the U.S. or abroad. Instead, Powell went to the U.N. and sold a bunch of lies in support of Bush's policy. For many people that was the deciding factor to get on board with Bush's plan.

    Hillary is demonized for her vote for the AUMF but if Powell even hints that he may vote for Obama, he is instantly rehabilitated and is deemed a great choice for VP on the Democratic ticket. Sorry can't agree with this type of logic in any way, shape or form.  

    Parent

    After selling out (none / 0) (#172)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:22:28 PM EST
    the country in the UN speech when he knew it was a lie, I think Powell's political career is over. I can't imagine the anti war candidate teaming with one of the liars that started it in the first place.

    Parent
    I doubt Hagel would be the VP.. (none / 0) (#107)
    by rjarnold on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:04:54 PM EST
    The Obama team should know that it would alienate a whole lot of Dems, and Hagel wasn't on any of the short-lists.

    Donna Brazile, like always, doesn't know what she is talking about and probably buys into the line that the worst problem facing the nation is "partisan bickering."

    Parent

    A Obama/Hagel Ticket Has Been (none / 0) (#124)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:21:32 PM EST
    on every state poll I've seen that polls the viably of VP candidates. He has been discussed as a possible Obama VP pick on the Obama A-list blogs for months and this idea gets support on them.

    Parent
    Brazile, still cooking I see... (none / 0) (#147)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:47:06 PM EST
    So Donna Brazile thinks:

    The country's in such a mood now, it's in a pickle almost..."

    Given that Brazile played such a huge role in terms of creating the "pickle", surely god, she should be stifled as to how we get out of the "pickle".

    Did her book "Cooking with Grease" have any recipes for getting out of pickles?

    Parent

    Oil Drilling (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:15:31 PM EST
    My faith in my fellow American's continues to decline. I just read a poll done in response to Bush's call for offshore drilling. Suddenly over 70% think it's a great idea and believe it will lower gas prices. Maybe that's the same 70% that thought the Iraq war was a great idea too. Are we really that naive? No wonder we end up with the leaders we do!

    I'm not (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:21:34 PM EST
    suprised. That's why all the "this is a Dem year" and "there's absolutely no way McCain can win" falls on my deaf ears. I guess I'm getting very cynical in my old age. Seen too much I guess.

    Parent
    I'm tired of caring (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:27:31 PM EST
    about the youth who don't care about the older folks.

    So, if the Republicans want to spoil the environement for the youth who don't care about healthcare and social security, well, bully for them!  I won't live long enough for it to severely affect me.  As long as I get cheaper gas, I'm a happy lady.

    Parent

    ha (none / 0) (#105)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:03:17 PM EST
    marry me?  

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#113)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:10:16 PM EST
    Sorry, I'm taken ;-).

    Parent
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#65)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:21:44 PM EST
    I got an email this morning with a 1 year old video attached explaining the oil situation. I never know for sure how to take these things, but a documentary on the Federal Reserve, World Bank and who runs the world gives the same basic scenario.

    Parent
    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#189)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:55:41 PM EST
    Makes it almost seem as if BushCo had a hand in getting the oil prices so high betting that Americans would finally start to be OK with drilling in areas that were off limits.

    Parent
    Worried about the convention (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:25:05 PM EST
    For some time, I've been worried about the convention.

    I think conventions are important.  I believe the 1992 ("Better in the original German.") Republican convention was instrumental in Bush's loss.  The 2004 (let's not pick on Bush), Dem convention really hurt Kerry.

    If the '08 convention plays out like some Club Obama revival meeting, we could be in big trouble.  If it's the proggy blogs vision of nirvana, we're dead.

    Hopefully, wiser heads will prevail and we won't have this.  But I'm worried they won't. And we'll be treated to an all elitism, all the time horror show.

    Love the Shin (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:40:34 PM EST
    I loved just standing on the platform and feeling it whoosh by.

    Seems like it would be perfect for the California I-5 corridor.  Hope it goes through.

    Not to have to do I-5 (5.00 / 0) (#95)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:47:38 PM EST
    would be fantastic! I would easily take the rail over driving or flying.

    Parent
    Hillary is back in the Senate and is calling for (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by rjarnold on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:59:06 PM EST
    investigations into Halliburton. At least someone in the party is showing real leadership.

    http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/06/clinton_back_in_the_senate_sad.html

    I predict this will not be the last time (none / 0) (#103)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:00:56 PM EST
    she will lead on healthcare Im betting.


    Parent
    I'm hoping she made a deal with O (none / 0) (#108)
    by thereyougo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:05:00 PM EST
    when she had that hour meeting 3 weeks ago,
    that he would adopt her health care plan in exchange for her endosersement.

    I'm glad she's back in the senate, after having convinced 18 mil people to vote for her. She definitely now has a pulse on the nation's ills.

    Parent

    Obama isn't going to adopt her health care plan.. (none / 0) (#118)
    by rjarnold on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:15:54 PM EST
    If he made a deal with him, the best it could have been would be to put her as Senate majority leader.

    Parent
    I don't see how he could after (none / 0) (#122)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:20:32 PM EST
    the primaries (healthcare). Or maybe she drafts it after he's in and he signs it in the name of Unity and reaching out to the far left?! lol!~

    Parent
    This is the kind... (5.00 / 0) (#112)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:09:11 PM EST
    ...of technology we should have been investing in over the past 25 years.  There's no reason (except for Big Oil/US Automakers) that we shouldn't have a comparable high-speed rail system to what they do in Europe and Japan.

    Air travel is going to be cost prohibitive to all but the very wealthy in the very near future.  And, I would much rather hop a train than set foot in an airport.

    Yay! (5.00 / 0) (#132)
    by tree on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:28:47 PM EST
    I wish we had done this 10 years ago. I've often wished I could take the train rather than car or plane up into Oregon. But the current trains take over 24 hours to get where I'm going! This will only go half way up the state to Sacramento but it will be very welcome. It's got my vote, even though it may be too late to help me personally by the time its done in 10 years.

     Thanks for the good news.

    Obama is not afraid to say it. (5.00 / 0) (#137)
    by halstoon on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:33:53 PM EST
    I love that Obama will say what needs to be said. I know his religiosity bothers some, and others see him as sounding too Republican, but I think it's great that Obama focuses on personal responsibility, another GOP keyword that won't win any fans here.

    At the end of the day, though, Obama's overriding focus is community service and individual effort. If we all try to do the right thing and help others who struggle more than we do, we will see immense progress in the lives of the poor and the forgotten.

    I think that is a great message, one worthy of supporting in November.

    No one has done more (5.00 / 3) (#142)
    by tree on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:40:50 PM EST
    to promote personal responsibility than Barack "This is not the __ (fill-in-the-blank) I knew" Obama.

    Parent
    Yawn ... (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:44:39 PM EST
    as one Youtube commenter said in the link you posted:

    The real problem is the need for LIVING WAGE JOBS! Because without a LIVING WAGE JOB one cannot keep a family intact. Also, the foundations of stable communities are LIVING WAGE JOBS!

    Wish Obama has said something like that.  Rather than the faux Republican nonsense he spouted in that speech.

    Parent

    Obama does support a living wage. (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by halstoon on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:05:33 PM EST
    It doesn't matter how much money you make, though, if you're priorities are not in line. If we focused on getting our kids through school, making sure they could read, and keeping them out of jail, they would not have to worry about a minimum wage job.

    To complain about a living wage on Father's Day would have missed the moment. If we step up to our responsibilities as parents, a lot of the poverty issues can be avoided without relying on Congress to take care of us. A conservative viewpoint, I know, but one worth adopting imo.

    Parent

    Hmmm ... (none / 0) (#180)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:40:25 PM EST
    To complain about a living wage on Father's Day would have missed the moment.

    And blaming black men for the ills of society on Father's Day?  Totally awesome!

    Get a clue.

    Parent

    I dont think obamas a very good role model (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:54:17 PM EST
    on this issue.  His sense of responsibility is based on strict political self-interest.

    He will ask others to hold themselves responsible for the divisiveness we see in the party and in politics in general but the tone of the primary itself crushed his credibility now on that issue.  See above thread on "deep disappointment".

    Parent

    Has anyone seen this? (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by SarahinCA on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:00:00 PM EST
    Just wanted to get opinions and would love to see a TL post on this.

    Muslims barred from picture at Obama event


    tree, I agree with you. (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:12:54 PM EST
    But what exactly that means is a puzzle LeResche and other pain researchers across the country are trying to work through. The fact is, no one really knows for sure if women and men perceive pain differently, let alone how they react to it.

    "There are [so many] overlays of societal and cultural norms and other factors that go into the reporting of pain that it may not have a biological basis at all," says Robert Gear, an assistant professor of oral and maxillofacial surgery at the University of California, in San Francisco. "It certainly could have a biological basis, but there is no way to test it so far."

    I think there are bunch of reasons all the studies show that women do not tolerate pain as well as men, and as most of the studies suggest, those reasons include biological, societal, perception-al, whatever, reasons/differences.

    Obama expresses "deep disappointment" (4.75 / 4) (#2)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:27:16 PM EST
    in Sen. McCain's failure to speak out against verbal attacks on Michelle Obama: Obama

    I am admittedly rather bitter about this.

    I have to agree with the McCain campaign response (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:33:52 PM EST
    on that one.  They said Obama has failed to live up to the standards he sets for others.

    If he had, there would be no doubt of a unified Dem party and landslide this fall.

    Parent

    Ouch. Point McCain camp. (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:30:27 PM EST
    God, the hypocrisy! (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by angie on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:46:51 PM EST
    I can't believe a lighting bolt didn't come down from the sky and smite as he said that.
    I would never consider making Cindy McCain a campaign issue, and if I saw people doing that - I would speak out against it. And the fact that I haven't seen that from John McCain I think is a deep disappointment."

    Maybe the wiggle room, fingers crossed behind his back that he is giving himself is the word "saw" -- you know, like with Wright -- if Obama doesn't actually see it happen, then he doesn't have to say or do anything about it.

    Parent
    Yes - parsing and wiggle room (4.66 / 3) (#45)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:08:35 PM EST
    are what he is relying on to counter those of us who say he should have come out against the sexist attacks on Hillary.  I'm waiting for someone to explain that he always only meant spouses and young children should be off limits.

    Whenever I'm ready to cut him some slack and get more solidly behind him, he makes it very difficult.

    Parent

    I wonder why it is that Obama doesn't (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:49:57 PM EST
    realize that all those nice things he says about Michelle in defending her from attacks are things the McCain and Clinton families also believe to be true of Cindy and Hillary - unless he's saying that of the three only Michelle has done all the right things and is therefore, exempt from any and all criticism.

    What may really be sticking in Obama's craw is that McCain did come out and defend Hillary from some of the nastier things that were said, but I guess Obama didn't want to look too whiney.

    Parent

    Where was obama in standing up for (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:50:40 PM EST
    Hillary?  How soon we forget!

    Parent
    Crickets (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:01:22 PM EST
    Obama's supporters like Rep. Cohen joined in on the sexist "Glenn Close" attacks and even then Obama remained silent.

    It took McCain bringing up the subject before any one in Dem leadership even said word one about what was going on.  Color me unimpressed.

    Parent

    And, the more distinctive comparison (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:10:19 PM EST
    is in how he, himself, participated in the thrashing of his opponent's spouse. Obama stood on stage with McPeak when McP compared Bill to McCarthy because he didn't include Obama in the scenario of Hillary v. McCain.

    He, personally, criticized Bill in a number of stump speeches claiming he couldn't tell which Clinton he was running against. Nothing would please him more than to have a spouse with the same campaigning power of Bill Clinton.


    Parent

    They have barely touched michelle....they (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:54:48 PM EST
    are saving the good stuff for the most opportune time.  Saying they better lay off her will go thru one ear and right out the other.  Maybe obama could learn a lesson by practicing what he preaches!

    Parent
    Barack is a man who lives by (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    words, not actions. He is above the rules of society in how he behaves.

    Parent
    Amen sister friend.... (4.25 / 4) (#55)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:12:51 PM EST
    obama's mantra:  do as I say, not as I do

    Parent
    But McCain's first wife, that's a (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:55:04 PM EST
    totally different story.

    Parent
    Chivalrous Obama calls on rival to stop the slams (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    ... on Sposa Obama, who is, after all, the presumptive First Lady.

    ahhhh HAHAHAHAHAHA :: eye wipe ::

    Gotta wonder if any kitchen sinks and china were periodically thrown.

    Phew. And they said the man was without humor.

    Parent

    But, Cindy remains fair game (4.50 / 2) (#53)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:11:55 PM EST
    Unfortunately, her favorite cookie recipes that have an online presence as belonging to someone else is big news.


    Parent
    Next: Obama expresses "disappointment" (5.00 / 6) (#44)
    by Joelarama on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:08:07 PM EST
    over McCain's connection to anti-gay "ex-gay" gospel singer.

    Parent
    Turnabout is fair play (none / 0) (#133)
    by SoCalLiberal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:29:37 PM EST
    we should consider (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:08:59 PM EST
    obama AGREED with all the attacks on Clinton.

    Who says he's being a hypocrite here?

    Parent

    This is exactly the kind of thing (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:12:33 PM EST
    Digby spoke about.  You can't verbally attack one candidate's spouse, then expect the outrage about YOUR spouse to be heard.

    Parent
    Ugh (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:14:26 PM EST
    more of the "disappointment" whine. And when he couldn't even stand up against the sexist comments from his own party why should he expect McCain to do that? Seriously?

    Parent
    "a deep disappointment" (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:31:21 PM EST
    LOL!~ now where have I heard this frame before . . .

    Parent
    gee, it didn't bother him when they were (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by thereyougo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:53:01 PM EST
    speaking badly of Hillary. I think she showed much class when he was being attacked on the REV WRIGHT thing,by saying we should move on. But did anyone hear him defend her when they were bringing up the Serbia silliness or the Kos kidz were calling her every name in the book?

    and Hillary is going to fundraise for him? Man my skin isn't thick enough for politics

    Parent

    Obama Has Spent Most Of This (none / 0) (#92)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:46:33 PM EST
    campaign season "SAD" or "Disappointed."  This type of response doesn't work for me but evidently it does with a lot of other people.

    Parent
    Really? (4.00 / 1) (#1)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:24:16 PM EST
    go to two jails instead of one

    I could reasonably see prison time for the producers of the show, but for regular viewers?  A bit harsh coming from the defense bar!

    I can contemplate watching the vapid (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:28:07 PM EST
    View but not telling the entire world via my blog that I did so.

    Parent
    When I was a stay-at-home mom (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:32:42 PM EST
    I used to watch Barbara Howard's show.  One-year olds don't engage in adult conversation.  

    Parent
    The View is apparently great for new moms who miss (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:11:07 PM EST
    ... sitting around with a bunch of women all talking simultaneously. My brainiac sister said it saved her sanity when she was on the insane breast-feeding schedule. (Schedule was nutty, not the boob.)

    I have sisters so I've developed the mechanism of seeing an opening and jumping the he!l in.

    Parent

    only ever watched one (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:58:40 PM EST
    daytime female talk show.  anyone from the Houston area and old enough to know who Warner Roberts is?
    I LOVE Warner Roberts.  she was(is? this was in the 70s) married to this rich guy who wanted to get her out of the house so he bought her a TV show.
    every episode was a classic whether it was the very famous one where she and Ertha Kitt did a silence standoff or the one when she had Richard Adams, the author of Watership Down, on to promote the book and had the entire set decorated in ships.
    I miss Warner Roberts.


    Parent
    Think of it this way (none / 0) (#5)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:30:55 PM EST
    People who watch The View are already serving time. . .

    Parent
    Non Elitists Watch (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:37:43 PM EST
    How many watch the show? More than are serving time. According to Prison Planet 30 million watch the show.

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:38:34 PM EST
    Here's how I am planning to deal w/ the DNC (4.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:04:22 PM EST
    Many of you have quit the Democratic Party. I can't. We only have 2 viable parties (a parlimentary system would make room for more) so I have to work with the ones that have the power. Baltimore is 85-90% Dem so if you don't vote in the primaries you didn't vote.
    I am so mad at the engineered primary and the malign embrace of sexism. So while I won't change my registration, the DNC will get more nothing from me. The last few election cycles my volunteer hours and money went only for specific candidates anyway.

    So I will focus on local races and issues and candidates and legislators.
    And I will hold feet to fire on sexism and push for local dems to address the issues.
    Luckily locally we have some great stuff happening.

    I agree.. I was going to quit but (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by FlaDemFem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:48:13 PM EST
    then I stopped and thought about it. What is going to get more attention at the DNC, an email or angry letter from a registered Democrat or the same from an Independent who used to be a registered Democrat? I figured that staying as a registered Democrat was the only chance I had of being able to get my party back to where it should be. I don't want the DNC to be just an arm of the Chicago Combine, which it is in the process of becoming. I don't want Barack Obama deciding who can be financed and who can't. The Democratic Party is for Democrats, not just the Obama fan base.

    I will not go gently into that good night. I will stay and fight for my Party. It's been my Party for longer than Barack Obama has been alive, and I am not giving it up without a fight. And when it comes to fights, I am not in the habit of losing. I just keep going until I win.

    Parent

    The latter (none / 0) (#164)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:04:40 PM EST
    will be the most effective.

    If there are mass defections from the Democrats to Independents, it changes the narrative.  It also changes the poll ratios used to do polling.

    You can always go back to the party later, when/if it becomes the Democratic Party again.

    Parent

    I intend to vote for the downticket, (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by FlaDemFem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:28:16 PM EST
    but write in Hillary for President. Perhaps when the data comes to the attention of the DNC, ie. how many voters voted the downticket Dems but not Obama, it may give them a clue about what he, and they, are doing to the Party. That is the sort of data that politicos deem important. It will also tell them how many Democrats are displeased with their actions and decline to support them. I know I can vote for the downticket Dems as an Independent, but I want to be a thorn in the side of the Democratic Party until they come to their senses. Hard to do that from the outside. So, those that leave the Party are sending a message, and those of us who stay and don't vote the top slot are also sending a message. With so many messages coming at them, the DNC is bound to notice at least one of them.

    Parent
    For example (none / 0) (#125)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:22:13 PM EST
    Donna Edwards was elected in MD-04 yesterday to finish Al Wynn's term. She will be the first black woman Congressperson from Maryland. Yea!!!!!

    In other and sadder news, Baltimore Mayor Sheila Dixon's home was raided today. If she needs to resign to fight corruption charges, she would be replaced by City Council President Stephanie Rawlings-Blake - who is young, connected, smart, and more progressive. She was not my preference for that job but is far better than Dixon who was not my preference for the Mayors job.
    Yup - every incumbent running in Baltimore won last year. Another thing to work on......

    Parent

    Heheh! (none / 0) (#6)
    by lilburro on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:32:01 PM EST
    I guess we won't be seeing Jeralyn on the View...ever.

    But don't you think it would be fun to pull Barbara's leg?

    Well, Kathy Griffin is allegedly banned (none / 0) (#10)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:35:44 PM EST
    so Jeralyn can join the list.

    Parent
    Why do you know this? (none / 0) (#32)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:59:44 PM EST
    Griffin talks about it in her act. (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by tigercourse on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    People Power.... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:43:16 PM EST
    in action in Seattle.  Link

    Hopefully what is right will trump greed for a change.  The NBA could certainly use some good pr for a change, here is their chance...but it looks like they will blow it, again.

    Save the Sonics!


    Seattle got more good news today (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:17:32 PM EST
    The hard work of Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell has succeeded in the first step of getting the Air Force tanker contract bidding reopened.

    Parent
    ever hear a rabbit scream? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:43:52 PM EST
    its a sound you will never ever forget.  this morning I got to watch my dog brutally murder pathetic little bunny rabbit.
    its shrieks are still ringing in my ears.


    Speaking of Watership Down. (none / 0) (#74)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:30:07 PM EST
    poor thing (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:45:42 PM EST
    I think it died of fright.  there was no blood and didnt seem to be any broken bones.
    the dog just chased it around and around the yard with me screaming at him while trying to get my pants on since I had just gotten out of bed, caught it and ran around with me chasing him with it in his mouth.
    it was a nightmare.
    my neighbor thought it was hilarious.


    Parent
    Very possible it was fright :( (none / 0) (#97)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:50:45 PM EST
    I'm so thankful my dog play bows to small critters, she would be too hard to catch is she was prey driven. It can be embarrassing in the parks though, lol!~

    Parent
    Danger Kitty has herded/captured 3 mice (none / 0) (#157)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:58:49 PM EST
    She chases them about the house. I hear the mouse squeaks and head off to the rescue. And grab the colander and some catalog or other.

    Between the two of us we get the mouse under the colander and out the door.

    When it's all over Danger Kitty gets treats.

    She has no interest in the kill...just the play.

    Parent

    So sorry about that (none / 0) (#78)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:33:57 PM EST
    Must have been horrible.

    The doggies are so proud, they can't figure out why we are horrified. A few months ago mine caught a squirrel that fell out of a tree and landed literally on top of him. Talk about starting at third base and thinking you hit a home run.

    Parent

    I would like to borrow your dog. (none / 0) (#98)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:51:26 PM EST
    Squirrels have been eating the wires under my car for the last couple of years. Three times I've had to have wiring replaced at $200  a pop. So far, haven't found anything to stop them. Squirrels are definitely not my favorite animal.

    Parent
    my dog (none / 0) (#111)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:07:43 PM EST
    would love nothing more than to catch a squirrel.  they taunt and torment him constantly.
    in fact I think he probably took out his rage at the squirrels on the poor little bunny.


    Parent
    Warning: graphic violence! (none / 0) (#198)
    by Fabian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:28:29 PM EST
    My dog and I spend every spring looking for bunny nests.  I have nothing against cute, furry critters until they eat my garden.  Then I decide a little natural selection is in order.

    So every spring I look for the subtle signs of a bunny nest.  Perhaps a wisp of gray fur or a small tuft of dry grass betrays the nest, which is just a small depression lined with dry grass and fur.  Once the nest is discovered, the hound is summoned and he dispatches each piping infant via gross physiological trauma.  Ordinarily he would humanely or caninely dispatch prey by breaking its spine, but bunny babies are too small.  

    The thing is that he roams freely on our modest suburban yard, so the rabbits must know that they are nesting in his territory and they do it anyway.  So I don't feel too bad about curbing the local rabbit population.  If they were smart, they'd pick someone else's yard to raise their young in.  

    Parent

    Go Boston! (none / 0) (#15)
    by indy in sc on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:44:11 PM EST
    So happy that the Celtics took the Championship!!  I'm not generally a Celtics fan, but I was rooting hard for them this post-season.

    Screw Boston.... (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:55:16 PM EST
    They're winning everything and I've had it! :)

    Thank the sun god for the NY Giants otherwise we'd never hear the end of it from our Bostonian friends:)

    Parent

    Ha! (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by indy in sc on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:08:51 PM EST
    I was very happy when the Patriots lost!!  That superbowl was my very brief stint as a Giants fan. ;)

    Parent
    And to think Rosie, Trump & Elizabeth (none / 0) (#17)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:46:12 PM EST
    were news hilights for weeks over their 'View' on this show. Why? Ha.

    I wonder if the word sweet is the right adjective to describe a possible leader of the free world. Nothing wrong with it, but a untough word. One of the interesting things that I see in the Dem women is strength. I see 3 women who are stronger than their husbands in some cases, or as strong, and smarter or as smart as their husbands. Even with the MSM giggling with their little jokes, one thing that stands out is that women are strong and should not be discounted.

    as what you might call (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:53:51 PM EST
    a neutral observer I would suggest that women are, and have always been, far stronger than men.
    for example, imagine your whiney husband having a baby.
    this is why, or at least one reason why, men have found it necessary to repress them so brutally.
    they know.


    Parent
    No.... (none / 0) (#86)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:41:29 PM EST
    men are physically stronger, hands down, not debatable.  

    I don't think gender plays a role in emotional or mental strength.

    What women have is a higher tolerance for pain.  I can't deal with pain at all...I go running to my street corner pharmacist at the first sign of it.  My moms, on the other hand, turns down novicaine and nitrous when she gets root canal, saying it "doesn't really hurt".  Amazing to me.  Forget about childbirth, as you mentioned.  If men had to carry and birth the kids, humans would be extinct:)

    Parent

    thats what I meant (none / 0) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:46:57 PM EST
    higher tolerance for pain = stronger

    Parent
    Reverse sexism? Science has shown that (none / 0) (#99)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:52:30 PM EST
    guys are actually more pain tolerant.
    Higher pain tolerance in males can't be bought.

    Men's higher tolerance for pain is not just macho posturing but has a physiological underpinning, suggests a study in which subjects were given a monetary incentive to keep their hand submerged in ice water.

    Sex differences in pain perception have been noted in multiple studies, with women typically displaying lower pain tolerance than men, but it is unknown whether the mechanisms underlying these differences are hormonal, genetic or psychosocial in origin.



    Parent
    That is surprising... (none / 0) (#104)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:01:56 PM EST
    I guess I'm just a wuss:)

    Parent
    I think thats bull (none / 0) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:03:56 PM EST
    personally.


    Parent
    Well, a lot of people personally think (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:11:11 PM EST
    global warming's bull too. Ah well.

    Any mother will tell you that if men had to go through the excruciating pain of childbirth the human race would have become extinct long ago.

    According to feminine lore, guys simply don't handle pain well. The tiniest twinge of discomfort is enough to reduce most men into helpless, whimpering heaps. Women, on the other hand, can handle the tough stuff. In fact, you can ratchet up the old pain-o-meter to agony and beyond and most women will soldier on without flinching.

    The trouble with that theory is -- it's wrong. And now men have the science to prove it.

    "The laboratory research seems to indicate that for many kinds -- but not all kinds -- of stimuli, women have a lower tolerance for pain," says Linda LeResche, ScD, a professor of oral medicine at the University of Washington, in Seattle.

    As someone once said, convictions are a greater foe to truth than lies.

    Parent
    professor of oral medicine at the University of Washington, in Seattle, is a woman...

    Parent
    sorry (none / 0) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:18:52 PM EST
    still bull

    Parent
    That is sorry. (none / 0) (#128)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:23:12 PM EST
    Being female (none / 0) (#166)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:08:11 PM EST
    in a man's world, you gotta play the game.  In other words, you can still be sexist.  And I attend UofWash, and trust me, it's a MAN's world there.

    She also said that for MANY kinds, but not all.  Women have migraines more frequently, and that may lend itself to more oral pain.

    Parent

    Being someone who doesn't really care (none / 0) (#175)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:25:05 PM EST
    one way or the other, but does like to know the truth about things, EVERY hit I just got when googling "female more greater pain tolerance than men" said some version of this:
    Women feel pain more than men, more often and for longer periods of time, researchers claim.

    Despite the popular belief that men are wimps when it comes to dealing with pain and the female experience of childbirth gives women the upper hand, scientists found that the opposite was true.



    Parent
    Maybe It Is Just That (none / 0) (#186)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:51:43 PM EST
    Women feel more pain than men but put up with it without complaining for much, much longer periods of time.

    Parent
    Do you want that to be true? If so, why? (none / 0) (#191)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:00:56 PM EST
    Here's what the link in my previous comments has to say about that:

    Dr Ed Keogh, a psychologist from the university's Pain Management Unit, said men may take a more problem-solving approach to pain, meaning that they think about what they can do to deal with the pain and get on with their lives.

    Women, on the other hand, may be more emotional and focus on the pain and how it is making them feel, rather than thinking about how they can deal with it and get back to work, for example.



    Parent
    Do I Want That To Be True? (none / 0) (#193)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:08:26 PM EST
    That is a non sequitur if I ever heard one. Since you ask, it must be on your mind, so what do you want to be true about women's pain?

    One thing I do know about women who murder is that they often get a harsher sentence because most women who murder do it after being in an abusive situation for a very long time and they premeditate the murder. While most men get a lesser sentence because they murder spontaneously for things like someone sitting on their car, or looking at them funny. No premeditation equals shorter sentence.

    Parent

    As I said before, (none / 0) (#195)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:17:23 PM EST
    I really don't care one way or the other. I just read what the results of all the studies say and accept them.

    You, on the other hand, seem to be trying to mitigate, or explain away, or something, the results of the studies.

    I am merely interested in why it seems you would want to do that.

    You are under no obligation to answer, of course.

    Parent

    Because (none / 0) (#197)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:24:22 PM EST
    What people do while they are in a box in a science lab is often very different from how they would respond in real life. What kdog said strikes me as true, while your scientific study seems surprising to me. Neither have anything to do with how I would like women to feel, but you knew that.

    Parent
    a science lab than they do in real life.

    iow, the women could in real life tolerate pain more, less or the same as they did in a lab. And men in real life could tolerate pain more, less or the same as they did in a lab.

    For exactly that reason, a lot of these studies were done in non-lab settings on male and female post-op patients who'd undergone the same surgeries. No science lab, merely analyzing real-life male/female pain tolerances.

    There are so many studies, and they almost all basically conclude the same thing:

    With few exceptions, according to the published literature, females demonstrate a lower pain threshold and a lower tolerance of painful stimuli.


    Parent
    But this is what the next few paragraphs (none / 0) (#201)
    by tree on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:37:52 PM EST
    of your first linked article says:

    "The laboratory research seems to indicate that for many kinds -- but not all kinds -- of stimuli, women have a lower tolerance for pain," says Linda LeResche, ScD, a professor of oral medicine at the University of Washington, in Seattle.

    But what exactly that means is a puzzle LeResche and other pain researchers across the country are trying to work through. The fact is, no one really knows for sure if women and men perceive pain differently, let alone how they react to it.

    "There are [so many] overlays of societal and cultural norms and other factors that go into the reporting of pain that it may not have a biological basis at all," says Robert Gear, an assistant professor of oral and maxillofacial surgery at the University of California, in San Francisco. "It certainly could have a biological basis, but there is no way to test it so far."

    Sounds to me like the scientists really aren't sure about anything yet.

    For someone who doesn't care one way or the other, you're pretty insistent on pushing your interpretation of the sketchy data. Just sayin'.

     

    Parent

    also (none / 0) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:05:38 PM EST
    what are the chances the person authoring the "study" is a man?

    Parent
    Here's one that suggests (none / 0) (#126)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:22:28 PM EST
    women have "periodic" differences in how they handle pain:
    In June 2002, the team reported in the Journal of Neuroscience the first findings that some of the differences between individuals in response to pain are governed by the mu-opioid system.

    In the study, 14 men scanned before and during jaw pain showed increases in endorphin release in certain brain areas during the painful state, as shown in the previous study.

    But most of the 14 women studied actually showed a reduction in endorphin release. The women also reported feeling more intense pain, and more pain-related negative emotions, than the men.

    Zubieta notes that all the women were studied at a time in their menstrual cycle when levels of estrogen and progesterone were lowest.

    This gender difference in pain response makes sense in light of what is already known about women and pain, says Zubieta, an associate professor of psychiatry and radiology at the U-M Medical School.

    "Women experience chronic pain syndromes more frequently, often in tandem with stress-related mood disorders, and they are also more sensitive to the effects of opiate drugs," he explains.

    "This may be due to a difference in their capacity to activate their pain-response systems when estrogen or progesterone are low."

    btw, the three articles I just linked to were the first three hits (of about 197,000) when I googled "pain tolerance gender."

    Parent
    They definitely didn't use my ex-husband (none / 0) (#131)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:27:10 PM EST
    in their study. He could do hours of how much he was suffering from a hang nail.

    Parent
    Google (none / 0) (#200)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:32:03 PM EST
    First hit:

    Hot on the heels of a new national survey on arthritis pain, experts are disagreeing about which sex keeps the stiffest upper lip when in pain.
    Vancouver rheumatologist Dr. Simon Huang believes that women tolerate it best.

    As an arthritis specialist, Huang sometimes injects patients with medications and the gender differences he sees in his office are clear, he says.
    "The little old lady never faints in the office. It's actually the big husky man who faints in the office. That's not surprising," says Huang.

    link

    Parent

    I think it's relative (none / 0) (#158)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:00:50 PM EST
    to the people involved. I know that I'm a good bit stronger than a few men I know...and there are quite a few guys who are much much stronger than I.

    Parent
    Rosie at least made it (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by LoisInCo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:59:18 PM EST
    interesting. I used to always watch the hot topics section when she was on. ( I skipped the crafty stuff and celeb interviews).

    Parent
    More polls, all good for Obama (none / 0) (#33)
    by magster on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:01:09 PM EST
    ARG: Obama + 5 in FL, + 12 in NH

    Rasmussen: Obama + 22 in ME, only -4 in Alaska

    SUSA: Obama + 9 in WI

    MyDD: Obama 355 electoral votes

    ARG is about as reliable now (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:07:52 PM EST
    as it's ever been.

    Parent
    if his numbers hold in PA, (none / 0) (#66)
    by kempis on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:22:54 PM EST
    I may be able to stay home on election day and not worry about it.

    So yay.

    Parent

    What is that fundraiser with Hillary and (none / 0) (#71)
    by thereyougo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:27:46 PM EST
    Obama drama coming down?

    I'm still not over the rulz committee decision to give Obama Hillary's delegates.

    That appearance on the view by Obama's wife is just too shallow for me to even think it worked.

    The view isn't worth my time. Saw the clip online though and I will agree that dress Mrs. O was wearing is from a catalog I get at home. She just needs to wear the right clothes, since she is tall enough!

    She should just dress nice and STFU about anything and everything around her husband like Laura Bush does.

    I like Laura b/c she's got that southern charm and it works!  

    Michelle Obama (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:30:04 PM EST
    apparently needed to play up her "apron-wearing little woman" creds.  Best place to do it is an oxygen vaccuum like the View.


    Parent
    After rollercoaster win in the US Open (none / 0) (#79)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:34:39 PM EST
    two days ago Tiger Woods reveals that he has two stress fractures in his left leg and a torn ACL in his left knee and will be out for the rest of the 2008 season.

    torn ACL in left knee (none / 0) (#83)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:38:05 PM EST
    and a set of golf clubs in my garage is all I will ever have in common with Tiger Woods.

    OW.  He is even more amazing than I thought, and who knew that was possible?

    Parent

    And he's won 7x since.

    And he said he did the stress fractures during his intense rehab from the last knee surgery two months ago.

    Parent

    Exactly. (none / 0) (#101)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:54:15 PM EST
    Color me unimpressed.... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:15:16 PM EST
    now if was playing linenacker or power forward I'd be amazed, heck even first base...but all Tiger has to do is swing a club and walk.  Nobody chasing him, nobody banging bodies with him...he doesn't even have to carry his clubs!

    Parent
    You're so anti! (none / 0) (#130)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:25:53 PM EST
    But... (none / 0) (#135)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:31:25 PM EST
    ...Tiger's only a man and therefore is a total wimp who can't tolerate any pain.  Or some such nonsense.  

    Parent
    Oh come on. (none / 0) (#141)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:38:53 PM EST
    You won't be cute and adorable to the babes if you keep that "men are stronger and more pain tolerant" stuff up. Gotta play the game!

    Parent
    Perhaps not... (none / 0) (#149)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:47:37 PM EST
    ...but I have lots of scars to make up for that!

    Everyone can be a big baby when they want the attention or sympathy.  Not many can under go surgery without being put under though.

    Parent

    That's me:) (none / 0) (#148)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:47:10 PM EST
    Nothing against the guy, he's probably the best golfer ever.

    But spare me the bum leg routine...it's golf for crying out loud:)  Lots of people walking around on bum legs.

    Parent

    I played 18... (none / 0) (#140)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:36:53 PM EST
    ...on Sunday while suffering from the heat and dizzy spells and shot my best round ever.  

    Darn near did me in, but very enjoyable.

    Parent

    What did you shoot? (none / 0) (#145)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:44:51 PM EST
    91... (none / 0) (#152)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:50:35 PM EST
    ...look out Senior Tour, LOL!


    Parent
    Average score is 100. (none / 0) (#154)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:53:52 PM EST
    This convo has made me decide to get a mat and net and a bucket of range balls for my office...

    Parent
    Call me.... (none / 0) (#146)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:45:00 PM EST
    when there is a goalie in front of the cup, or a defender with a hand in your face when you're trying to chip....until then I say golf is a game, not a sport.  Closer to horseshoes or lawn darts than to basketball or track.

    Parent
    Ah, golf. (none / 0) (#151)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:49:46 PM EST
    Mostly right brain. Very little left brain. I love it.

    Parent
    For us... (none / 0) (#153)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:52:13 PM EST
    ...it is more like a party than a sport or game.  As it should be!

    Parent
    Party on boys, by all means.... (none / 0) (#163)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:04:15 PM EST
    I just don't get the attraction of the game at all, aside from the ability to gamble on it:)

    Parent
    Kicking a game-winning field goal?

    Parallel parking where you just back in perfectly the first time w/o having to go back and forth a bunch of times to get next to the curb?

    You hit a bunch of mediocre shots and then, omg, one comes off the club so pure you almost don't feel it. Straight and true and long. Ah, yes.

    Almost as satisfying as rolling a perfect joint. ;-)

    Parent

    Rolling perfect joints.... (none / 0) (#179)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:36:12 PM EST
    is routine for me man, I get no satisfaction from it other than the satisfaction the joint itself provides...remember who you're talking too! :)

    Point taken my brother, the feeling of personal accomplishment, like methodically reading the racing form and picking a 20-1 winner cold....ah what a feeling!

    Parent

    Yeah man, that's what I'm talking about! (none / 0) (#182)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:44:37 PM EST
    How about you report back after you (none / 0) (#160)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:03:02 PM EST
    have tried to hit a little ball with a slender metal stick some 300 yards, around sand traps, water hazards, high grass and trees, into a little cup that you cannot see from where you are hitting.  Do this on 18 different holes, with no two the same.  Do it without knowing whether the greens are fast or slow, too.

    Golf may not look as physically challenging as some other sports, because people are not being body-slammed to the turf, but golfers suffer from a lot of joint and overuse injuries - shoulders, elbows, knees and backs take much more of a beating than you would ever guess watching it on TV - just ask any orthopedic surgeon or physical therapist.

    And, what becomes painfully obvious after a couple of holes or a round or two, is that golf requires a high level of hand-eye coordination, and mental acuity and toughness.  You are playing yourself as well as your competitors.

    Go ahead...we'll wait.

    Parent

    No doubt.... (none / 0) (#183)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:45:49 PM EST
    it takes a lot of skill to play the game of golf well.

    Just as it atkes a lot of skill to play the game of bridge or chess at a high level.

    I just can't call it a sport...it's a game in my book.  Maybe I'd feel differently if the players had to carry their own clubs and/or run to the ball or something.

    Parent

    My Dad is a golfer, and never (none / 0) (#168)
    by FlaDemFem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:12:18 PM EST
    understood my attitude that golf courses are a waste of good pasture. Imagine all the horses you could keep on all those acres of lovely grass!! And all the money and gas you would save from not having to mow them. And riding horses is a real sport, at least it is once you get out of a walk. Heh.

    And then there is George Bernard Shaw's definition of golf.."A nice walk in the country spoiled by a little white ball."

    Parent

    Actually... (none / 0) (#173)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:22:30 PM EST
    ...it was Mark Twain who said "golf is a good walk spoiled".

    Parent
    Jockeys.... (none / 0) (#184)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:49:09 PM EST
    are the most amazing athletes around...it's take strength and stamina to ride a throroughbred, and these guys and gals do it while starving themselves (or worse)daily.

    Parent
    Excuse me .... what about the horses? (none / 0) (#196)
    by bridget on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:23:13 PM EST
    I am totally against horse racing. It is animal abuse and should be against the law. Just like rodeo, bull fighting and so on.

    Do I feel sorry for the poor "starving" jockeys who must say no to all that good food in front of them?
    As if.

    .


    Parent

    Can Someone Tell Me (none / 0) (#109)
    by creeper on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:05:37 PM EST
    if, during the primaries, Nancy Pelosi ever spoke out against the sexism?

    Or did she sit silently, telegraphing the message "I got mine.  The h&ll with the rest of you."?

    I don't recall hearing anything (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:22:59 PM EST
    Ha!! (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by standingup on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:23:46 PM EST
    The only thing Pelosi did was use her position of authority to push Clinton out.  If anything, Pelosi was one of the leading offenders instead of defender against sexism.  

    Parent
    I Heard A Lot About Sexism From (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:29:50 PM EST
    from Pelosi during the primary. The sound of crickets were deafening.

    Parent
    Barack Obama: I will keep troops in Iraq, maybe (none / 0) (#119)
    by daryl herbert on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:17:38 PM EST
    Sen. Obama told Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari that he would not pull American troops out of Iraq if that would jeopardize the "progress" that is being made.  Obama further said that he would consult with military leaders on the ground before taking action.  That is, according to Zebari.  Zebari said he thinks Obama and McCain aren't that different when it comes to Iraq.

    Obama denies it.  In the past, he fired campaign adviser Samantha Power for saying the same thing (coincidentally, at the time, she called Sen. Clinton a "monster," and Obama used that remark as cover to fire her, but the real reason was because she said he would rethink his withdrawal plan once he got into office).

    Like I wrote before, Obama doesn't want to publicly flip flop on his Iraq pullout plan until after the convention.  (It sure would be awkward if the nominee gets booed at the convention.)  When do you think it will happen?

    1 - June
    2 - July
    3 - August
    4 - September
    5 - October
    6 - November
    7 - December 08 through early 09
    8 - Never! Obama will keep his promise.

    I've previously written that I think it will happen in September.

    Strangest thing ... (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:34:29 PM EST
    I brought this up with a few Obama supporter friends.  Most of them agreed that he won't pull out of Iraq.  But they weren't bothered by it.

    They've had the same reaction to nuclear power, health care, etc..

    The Invasion of the Body Snatcher vibe during these conversations is chilling.

    Parent

    Hm (5.00 / 0) (#139)
    by Steve M on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:35:50 PM EST
    After reading the WaPo editorial, I think you are stretching Obama's side of the conversation a bit.  What he supposedly said amounts to little more than a truism, in my book.

    Mr. Zebari said that in addition to promising a visit, Mr. Obama said that "if there would be a Democratic administration, it will not take any irresponsible, reckless, sudden decisions or action to endanger your gains, your achievements, your stability or security. Whatever decision he will reach will be made through close consultation with the Iraqi government and U.S. military commanders in the field."

    Saying that we won't do anything irresponsible is just standard babble.

    Parent

    People Hear What They Want To Hear (none / 0) (#144)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:44:46 PM EST
    The fact that Obama plans to leave American troops in Iraq and not really end the occupation is not really new. It has been his position all along.

    February

    A senior foreign policy adviser to leading Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama has told The Nation that if elected Obama will not "rule out" using private security companies like Blackwater Worldwide in Iraq. The adviser also said that Obama does not plan to sign on to legislation that seeks to ban the use of these forces in US war zones by January 2009, when a new President will be sworn in.
        ...
    Obama's broader Iraq withdrawal plan provides for some US troops to remain in Iraq -- how many his advisers won't say. But it's clear that Obama's "follow-on force" will include a robust security force to protect US personnel in Iraq, US trainers (who would also require security) for Iraqi forces and military units to "strike at Al Qaeda" -- all very broad swaths of the occupation

    During a debate that Russert monitored Obama refused to commit to having all American troops out of Iraq by the end of his first term saying that troops would be required to fight al-Qaeda, make sure there was not genocide, try to secure the country. No exact number of troops that would remain were specified.

    In April, Colin Kahl, the day-to-day coordinator of the Obama campaign's working group on Iraq, writes that through negotiations with the Iraqi government "the U.S. should aim to transition to a sustainable over-watch posture (of perhaps 60,000-80,000 forces) by the end of 2010 (although the specific timelines should be the byproduct of negotiations and conditions on the ground).

    Links:  Examiner
    Alternet


    Parent

    Obama on NAFTA (none / 0) (#171)
    by waldenpond on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:22:00 PM EST
    `The general campaign is on, independent voters up for grabs, and Barack Obama is toning down his populist rhetoric - at least when it comes to free trade.

    In an interview with Fortune to be featured in the magazine's upcoming issue, the presumptive Democratic nominee suggests he doesn't want to unilaterally blow up NAFTA after all.

    "Sometimes during campaigns the rhetoric gets overheated and amplified," he conceded, after I reminded him that he had called NAFTA "devastating" and "a big mistake," despite nonpartisan studies concluding that the trade zone has had a mild, positive effect on the U.S. economy.

    Does that mean his rhetoric was overheated and amplified? "Politicians are always guilty of that, and I don't exempt myself," he answered.'
    from the current FORTUNE Magazine

    With regards to Iraq... when Hitchens (on MTP) talks about how much he likes Obama's language on Iraq, it is a problem for me.

    Parent

    Doesn't surprise me at all (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:27:44 PM EST
    I hadn't seen anything written by him that would signal any significant or not so significant changes. And then there's his advisers . . .

    Parent
    Both Dem Plans (none / 0) (#192)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:01:50 PM EST
    Were contingent on responsible withdrawal, iow, no withdrawal if the situation called for troops remaining. Both plans had an unspecified amount of troops staying in Iraq indefinitely in order to fight the WOT.
    I would be surprised if the troops leave anytime soon after a Democratic win in November.

    Parent
    Sexism, any way you like it... (none / 0) (#123)
    by Artoo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:21:20 PM EST
    So, my wife and I love cooking competition reality shows. Top Chef, The Next Iron Chef, Hell's Kitchen...

    And, oh yes, The Next Food Network Star. This season has been a little hard for me in the wake of the primary. I'm an Obama supporter. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call myself a Democrat at this point, but I'm not a Republican anymore. Since about February, I've been paying quite a bit more attention to sexism and while I don't think the Obama campaign was overtly sexist, I think they used dog whistle tactics much the same way the Clinton campaign used race in the campaign. I'm not here to rehash all of that or to say one was worse than the other. This is just a jumping-off point.

    Kelsey's getting a raw deal so far on this show. She wants the job more than anyone else, and has prepared for the competition in a way her opponents have not and so while she does seem to have an answer for every question and challenge, she's been treated so far as though she is merely fake and overly ambitious. It's hard to watch at times. Ironically, the female judge on the show, Susie Ferguson, is her harshest critic in this regard. She consistently calls Kelsey fake or annoying. Meanwhile, the men on the show who behave similarly or are just as prepared in a given challenge are talked about as having great personality.

    I guess this all boils down to this for me: it's reason 3,429,632 why I'm glad I'm not a woman.

    Great idea, but how much you wanna bet (none / 0) (#156)
    by Newt on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:54:53 PM EST
    it costs two to three times the $33B they're asking for.

    Actually they're only asking for $10B from (none / 0) (#162)
    by tree on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:03:53 PM EST
    the California public. Even at two to three times that it still beats the cost of relying on freeway upgrades and maintenance as the only solution.

    Parent
    So is Sen. Clinton off the short list? (none / 0) (#159)
    by halstoon on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:01:07 PM EST
    Is that what this means? I know there was a post the other day, but I missed people's reactions. I think it's a safe bet that Hillary won't be VP, especially with the new FL/OH/PA polls all showing Obama doing really well without her.

    There were three (none / 0) (#167)
    by standingup on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:08:27 PM EST
    front page posts on it here, here and here plus extended discussion in the open threads.  

    Parent
    10 Female Democratic Senators (none / 0) (#161)
    by standingup on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:03:12 PM EST
    hold news conference to appeal to women to unify and vote for Obama.  A few articles up on the effort:

    Female senators make push for women voters - The Hill

    For Now Sans Clinton, Democratic Women Rally - ABC News

    Lincoln, other women senators unveil campaign goals -  Arkansas News Bureau

    And from the Baltimore Sun, Mikulski meets with Obama's V.P. search team:

    Sen. Barbara A. Mikulski met today with Barack Obama's vice-presidential search team but would not disclose details of the conversation. Mikulski is a former co-chairwoman of Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign.
    ...

    "I was honored to be consulted in one of Sen. Obama's first and most important decisions – the selection of his vice president. This is a critical decision that needs careful consideration. As mandated by this weighty decision, any future discussions I have on the issue will remain confidential."



    Heh . . . (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:22:58 PM EST
    I have to agree with this:

    "Democrats were just as eager to talk about change in 2006 in order to win the election, but the American people have yet to see the change they promised," said Rebecca Fisher, spokeswoman for the National Republican Senatorial Committee. "How can voters be sure that this time they really mean it?"

    Instead of talking about the list for the next 6 months, WORK on it.That could possibly get my attention . ..

    Parent

    What did Clinton do right (none / 0) (#170)
    by samtaylor2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:18:18 PM EST
    I am hoping Obama wins.  And I was wondering what things, once elected are signs he is moving in the right direction (or wrong). Thus I wanted to ask what things did Clinton do well, that we should look for in Obama, in order to get reach similar sucess?  How much of Clinton's sucess were the times vs. the Prez?  

    I'm assuming you're talking about Bill. (none / 0) (#181)
    by tree on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:41:37 PM EST
    I'd say the biggest asset he had in 1992 (and still has) is his ability to connect with middle class voters. Obama may be able to make a good speech( doesn't do anything for me, but I take it as fact that his speeches  impress others), but I don't see him able to connect in an off-the cuff basis. Clinton was a master at that. I think Hillary had also mastered that by the second half of the primary.

     I think he needs to listen more, as well. For a while there he was doing the town hall kind of thing, but instead of relating stories about other Americans and tying that in to his campaign issues, he seemed to want to tell personal stories about himself. People love it when you listen to them and connect much more deeply when you do.

    He should also take more of a stand on issues. Clinton was all hopey changey too but he tied it all together  and didn't just insist that you had to trust him to do the right thing. And he wasn't weaving back and forth between Democratic and Republican talking points like Obama is.

    Parent

    Obama camp apologizes to Muslim women (none / 0) (#178)
    by airwon on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:30:50 PM EST
    Apparently, some Obama volunteers did not allow a Muslim women in head scarf to stand behind Obama at a rally in MI.

    I don't think it will hurt him, but it sure doesn't fit in with his unifying message.  I understand the motivation but I would have liked to see Obama challenge the assumptions about Muslims.  Its too bad, because it is this kind of stuff that worries me about Obama.  He will always be reacting and maybe over-compensating to fight the assumptions made about him.

    Here is the NYT article.

    I thought you lived in NC (none / 0) (#185)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:51:33 PM EST
    or, are you just attending school there? :)

    Anyone Watching MSNBC? (none / 0) (#190)
    by JimWash08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:56:25 PM EST
    The Memorial for Tim Russert is really amazing.

    I think it speaks volumes to see so many notables in Washington politics and the media, all gathered to remember Tim.

    On a side note, what I'd do to be in that hall right now ... Hillary and Bill + Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews and all those other media types, under the same roof.

    Sorry .... (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by bridget on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:31:55 PM EST
    you couldn't pay me enough to watch that.

    only speaking for myself, of course.

    Parent

    If the (none / 0) (#203)
    by tek on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:44:59 PM EST
    country is in the mood for a national unity ticket, I'd vote for McCain/Clinton.

    Good lord squeaky (none / 0) (#205)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:07:18 PM EST
    did you not read the rest of your own link?
    University of B.C. psychology professor Kenneth Craig, who has studied pain for more than three decades, says it's a "commonplace myth" that women are more capable of enduring pain than men.

    "Most people relate it to the pain of childbirth, which itself is quite variable. That doesn't stand up when you look up the data."

    Craig says that women tend to be more inclined to complain of pain and to attempt to withdraw from painful situations. Men, in contrast, are more stoical.

    Also belies your "women complain less than men" suggestion...