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On Super Delegates Choosing Obama As Nominee

You heard this one before right? The Super Delegates will decide the Democratic Presidential nominee for President. And indeed, they almost already have. Since May 6, Hillary Clinton has gained 55 more pledged delegates than Barack Obama. But Barack Obama has gained in the neighborhood of 75 more automatic delegates than Hillary Clinton. Thus, while Obama has a 51%-48% lead among pledged delegates, he has around a 62%-38% lead among the super delegates. In terms of the popular vote, my own count, I will spare you from my explanation again, has Obama leading by approximately 20,000 votes out of over 36,000,000 cast. In essence, a popular vote tie.

More....

This race was a virtual tie, and the Super Delegates, in their wisdom, have confirmed Barack Obama's slim pledged delegate lead and have chosen, or are in the process of choosing, Barack Obama as the Democratic nominee. This is perfectly within their rights and is in fact a defensible and reasonable position. Hillary Clinton has argued that the Super Delegates are making a mistake. That may be. That is a reasonable argument as well. But that decision has been or is being made now - by the Super Delegates. They have chosen, or are in the process of choosing, our nominee in the face of a virtual tie in the popular vote and a slim Obama lead in the pledged delegate race. And that is their right and their duty. Whether you agree or disagree with decision, you can not quarrel with the legitimacy of their decision. This is how the Democratic Party designed its nomination process. Let's hope it will be the last time we use it.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

Comments closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    well, at the very least (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by NJDem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:29:22 AM EST
    let's hope this Democratic nomination IS changed--permanently!

    Don't know if the nomination will be (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:47:16 AM EST
    changed permanently. My guess is if Obama wins the GE, the Dems will do what they always do and that is kick the can down the road.

    I do believe that the Democratic Party has been changed by the Obama wing and not in a good way. If Obama wins the GE, it will cement those changes for years to come. Opposition to the Obama way will be futile once he is able to consolidate all the funds and messaging under his umbrella. Within the party, it will his way or the highway.

    Parent

    Why do I feel exactly the same way I did after (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by suzieg on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:26:16 AM EST
    learningof the decision of the supreme court giving the presidency to Bush? I'm fed up of hearing and reading about "hopefully it will be the last time" - it's not much of a consolation when I was a witness to the undemocratic caucuses in Texas! I will never seen him as our legitimate candidate as I never accepted Bush as our elected president! I'm facing a poor choice in November because I need the $5,000 promised by McCain to continue to afford my risk pool health insurance $22,200 last year and do not have the luxury to wait for Obama's 2nd term and only if it worked for the kids because my life literally depends on it, I'm fighting breast cancer!


    Parent
    Don't believe McCain (none / 0) (#180)
    by Panhandle on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:32:08 AM EST
    If you believe anything McCain tells you that's just foolish. I mean, he is a maverick and all, but I wouldn't trust a damn thing he campaigns on.

    Parent
    I'm sorry (none / 0) (#218)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:59:50 PM EST
    about your health.  My two cents:  I think McCain is at least as trustworthy as Obama.  Who can trust a man who thinks nothing of cheating to get the nomination?  Doesn't impart trust IMO.

    Parent
    Let's hope (none / 0) (#25)
    by Demi Moaned on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:43:12 AM EST
    ... above all that it's eight years before it matters again.

    Parent
    The SuperD's are creating (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by ding7777 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:29:58 AM EST
    an Obama bubble which will crash come November.

    rapid increases in valuations of [Obama's nomination] until they reach unsustainable levels relative to [the General Election]


    Back the sub-prime candidate (5.00 / 7) (#19)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:40:14 AM EST
    and the default on investment will happen sooner or later.

    Parent
    Lets not leave approximately 50% (none / 0) (#4)
    by sarissa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:31:53 AM EST
    of the primary voters out of this either.

    Parent
    Almost (none / 0) (#212)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:54:42 PM EST
    makes you wonder if the Dem insiders WANT a Republican in the WH.

    Parent
    Needs to be winner take all as (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by sarissa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:30:41 AM EST
    this years long primary campaign has done permanent damage to either eventual nominee.

    no way winner take all (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by TruthMatters on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:32:07 AM EST
    if it was winner take all states where 1 was favored the other would avoid.

    if this cycle taught us 1 thing, making the candidates go to each individual state is good for the party.

    they should try and make sure this happens EVERY year.

    Parent

    Problems with Winner take all (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Masalajam on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:31:15 PM EST
    The other problem with winner-take-all is that candidates could choose to only campaign in the big states (CA, TX, NY, etc) and win the nomination without having to compete nationally. Proportional representation at least creates an incentive for candidates to compete in all states to pick up a share of delegates.

    No electoral system in perfect, but IMHO proportional at least promotes candidates competing on a national basis.

    Parent

    yup, (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by NJDem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:34:46 AM EST
    like the GOP (can't believe I'm saying this) but they got it right--use the GE as the model.  No caucuses and winner takes all!  

    Also, if it turns out that Obama looses the way McGovern did, then I think there should be some type of provision when one candidate has the popular vote and the other has the pledged delegates.  I don't know what, but something.

    Parent

    I don't think winner take all is a good idea. (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:37:11 AM EST
    But we need to get rid of caucuses, that's for sure.

    Parent
    Only if CA (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by cannondaddy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:48:39 AM EST
    agreed to be last.

    Parent
    it doesn't have to be winner take all... (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:54:46 AM EST
    but this stupidity that in a district with an even number of delegates you must win by over 65% to get an advantage is the dumbest thing I ever heard of.

    And, caucuses have to go.  They have been proven to NOT reflect the voice of the people in TX, WA and NE.

    And, in addition to disenfreanchising voters, caucuses have way too much opportunity for dirty tricks by either side snd that can't happen in a primary.

    Parent

    The SD part (5.00 / 14) (#6)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:32:14 AM EST
    is not why Obama would be illegitimate.

    It's the RBC decision on MI and FL. Obama is claiming votes and delegates that he did not receive.

    That is illegitimate and un-democratic.

    I don't know why Obama didn't (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by sarissa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:34:33 AM EST
    just concede the point on MI as he will win the delegate race with or without them and most super-delegates no better than to antagonize key constituencies by overturning a pledged delegate lead.

    Parent
    I agree... (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:36:29 AM EST
    if he is so confident he will be the nominee, he should have agreed to 73 HRC, 55 Uncommitted, then let them vote however they wanted at the Convention. Also, FL should have been seated with full voting rights.

    What a disaster.

    Parent

    Clinton advisor (1.00 / 1) (#22)
    by digdugboy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:42:08 AM EST
    James Carville is well known for saying "when your opponent is sinking, throw him an anvil."  If Obama had followed Carville's advice, he would have taken the 50-50 delegate allocation in Michigan. He didn't follow Carville's advice. Would Hillary have followed Carville's advice if the roles had been reversed?

    Parent
    You are so clueless. (5.00 / 5) (#36)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:47:56 AM EST
    The right thing should be done no matter who suggests it.

    It's called having principles.

    Parent

    That would have (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:25:53 AM EST
    been BAD for OBAMA to do.   That's the only reason he didn't do it.  He did, however, take delegates he didn't deserve and didn't need, just to twist a knife into Hillary.  That alone is unforgiveable.  However, the 50-50 split would have soured his already bad unfavorables.

    Parent
    If I were you. (4.20 / 5) (#30)
    by pie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:45:50 AM EST
    I stfu about this primary so that people can cool off.  Idiots like you are merely fanning the flames right now, and you're doing absolutey no good at all.

    Grow up.  

    Parent

    Yeah and Obama (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by talex on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:53:02 AM EST
    is not full of flip-flopping and Hypocrisies himself. LOL

    The real point here is that Clinton left herself in the position to respect the voters to be able to vote for her by leaving her mane on the ballot. Obama didn't.

    When the voters on Michigan demanded that their votes be counted Clinton backed them vigorously . What a sin in a democracy, huh? And Obama? He just offered lip service and never legitimately lifted a finger for the voters of Michigan.

    Parent

    A cooling off period is over-rated (5.00 / 4) (#132)
    by rnibs on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:24:32 AM EST
    Obama's people shouldn't be angry at all because they're being given the nomination.

    And I think it's strange that people assume that people like myself, who will not be voting for Obama, need to cool off.  It is a reasoned, clear-headed decision that we have made, not some angry decision.  So I know I don't need to "cool off," and the Obama people shouldn't need to cool off since they got what they wanted.

    The DNC keeps invoking "cooling off" as though it were some magic phrase that will make them win in Nov., which is ridiculous.  What happens in Nov. will happen in Nov., regardless of what the DNC says.  The GE is a toss up now.    

    Parent

    Lovely. (2.33 / 3) (#76)
    by EddieInCA on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:15:59 AM EST
    People rating this post at"5" for a post which calls another poster an "idiot."

    Nice.


    Parent

    Cooling off is a good idea (none / 0) (#42)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:50:21 AM EST
    May I suggest a little more tact in the future? All Democrats, partisans and nominees alike have a responsibility to help unify the party. At minimum this requires tact and respect, even for people you may feel deserve none.

    Parent
    I was (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by rnibs on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:16:37 AM EST
    being tactful.  I was simply pointing out that people are wrong to assume that we need to "cool off."  

    Suggesting that we need to cool off is a roundabout way of suggesting that we have made the wrong decision when we have not.  We have each made our thoughtful, well-reasoned decisions.

    Parent

    What question? (none / 0) (#51)
    by pie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:55:04 AM EST
    I was glad to hear (none / 0) (#73)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:13:35 AM EST
    BTD is recommending you be banned.  Made my morning.  woohoo!

    Parent
    Dumb Question (none / 0) (#103)
    by talex on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:47:17 AM EST
    because you are an Obama supporter.

    And Obama doesn't deal in hypotheticals!

    And how in the hell can one poster here answer for Clinton? Your entire question is dumb.

    As for Clinton I will say thing about Michigan. She didn't have to worry about your hypothetical question because she was not stupid like Obama and did not and would not have taken her name off the ballot. And I wouldn't be surprised if Carville was one of the ones who backed her decision to not do so.

    You see that is what cracks me up about low information Obama supporters. The answer is right in front of you but you all still make dumb questions because of lack of political experience and just plain old common sense.

    Parent

    The Michigan Compromise (1.00 / 1) (#17)
    by digdugboy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:39:11 AM EST
    netted Obama two whole delegates. Hillary went from 73 half-delegates to 69 half-delegates. You are outraged about two delegates. That says a lot.

    Parent
    It was not a compromise. It was a power (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by Joelarama on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:41:25 AM EST
    play.  A decision forced on Michigan voters.

    Let's call things by their right names.  

    Parent

    No, it was a compromise put together (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by digdugboy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:43:45 AM EST
    by the Michigan State Democratic party, taking into account the flawed election, exit polls, and 30,000 write in ballots for Obama that could not be officially counted.

    Parent
    It's being called a compromise. (5.00 / 8) (#32)
    by Joelarama on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:46:33 AM EST
    It's amazing how Democrats are using Orwellian speak in this primary, just as Bush has done for going on eight years.

    Parent
    30,000 write-ins (5.00 / 5) (#61)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:02:48 AM EST
    which were ILLEGAL in MI and no one looked at to see what name was written in.  Since both Edwards and Obama instructed their supporters to vote Uncommitted, don't you suppose it is far more likely the write-ins were for Richardson and Biden?

    Next point, they did NOT accept the compromise propsed by MI.  That conpromise did NOT suggest 1/2 vote per delegate.

    They also did NOT accept the proposal made by FL, that proposal suggested and PROVED the point that the rules committe never had any authority to strip the super delegates and they should have been restored to full votes not 1/2.

    The committee said as much on Sat when the accepted the "shall" argument and then still only gave them 1/2 vote.  I guess because they felt they wanted to not treat the supers different that the elected.

    Then they did an about face and broke every rule of their own party in dealing with MI.

    At best, if they wanted to give some delegates from MI to Obama, it should have been the 75% of Uncommitted the exit polls said were his.  The 25% that were Edwards should have remained Uncommitted.  And, the 30,000 write-ins should have been completely ignored since they are illegal and have not even been counted.

    Parent

    what 30k "write-in" ballots (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by cpinva on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:07:56 AM EST
    for obama? there was no write-in, and obama's name wasn't on the ballot at all; he got no votes in MI. what was allocated to him on sat. was a gift, not earned.

    the only "flaw" in the election was the DNC, who couldn't even be bothered to abide by their own rules.

    Parent

    Donna and the others (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:49:08 AM EST
    talked about allegedly 30,000 write in votes, we don't know for whom.  Write ins are not legal votes.  But RBC claimed them in their numbers.  

    Parent
    Claimed (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:39:37 AM EST
    but never opened.  Clinton supporters indicated their willingness to have write in ballots opened and reviewed, assuming same complies with Michigan law, as write-in ballots have not been accepted in MI elections for a while.

    Parent
    x (none / 0) (#71)
    by Mary Mary on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:11:03 AM EST
    And his name is on every one of those ballots, right, Karnak?

    Well, I'll concede the point. I am a reasonable person, after all. Obama should get all 30,000 of those write-ins AND the uncommitted go back to being uncommitted and Hillary gets her delegates back. That's fair, isn't it? And that actually allocates votes according to the voters' choice.

    Parent

    The DNC and the MDP (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:21:46 AM EST
    rewarded Obama for his political ploy of removing his name from the ballot.  That is not democracy.  That must not be allowed.  Pehaps in November, this disallowal will be make clear.

    Parent
    Where's the Rool: others pay for TeamBO's risk (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:31:39 PM EST
    As posted elsewhere, this concept is stunning to me.

    I don't understand why it's a given that Obama cannot be held responsible for elective, strategic campaign risks that didn't pan out, yet allowed to keep the rewards of taking such risks even to the extent of being GIFTED voter support that Clinton earned.

    It's ridiculous, given the months of Dem insistance that the DNC rules were inflexible, unbreakable and not subject to interpretation.

    TeamClinton has been berated for months not just by media but by Dems for the "bad" campaigning that allowed Obama to close the gap.

    Yet Dem leadership repeatedly stepped outside neutrality to promote TeamObama and stood quietly by as Obama, his supporters and media gleefully leveled an unprecedented spree of vicious bigotry on Sen Clinton, her supporters and the groups who have voted for her.

    Parent

    x (none / 0) (#86)
    by Mary Mary on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:27:33 AM EST
    Of course it isn't democracy. But we're playing Calvinball now. :-) (That is a bitter smiley, BTW).

    Parent
    It's not the delegates. It's the votes. If some (5.00 / 10) (#23)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:42:12 AM EST
    committee has the power to take votes away from one candidate and give them to another, that is not democracy. If I vote for someone, my vote better be counted for them, not the other guy. This isn't Chicago or New York City circa boss Tweed.

    Parent
    No votes were taken away from Clinton (1.57 / 7) (#33)
    by digdugboy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:46:55 AM EST
    because the January 15 event did not elect any delegates. The reason the RBC met on Saturday is precisely because the January 15 event didn't count.

    If a revote were held today, Obama probably would win. At the last polling he was ahead of Clinton in Michigan.

    Remember, the Michigan Compromise took only four half-delegates from Clinton. That's two delegates. Two. Delegates.

    Parent

    LOL! (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:49:45 AM EST
    You are making no sense at all. Just stop.

    Parent
    If the primary were rerun starting now, Obama (5.00 / 5) (#44)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:51:17 AM EST
    would have his @$$ handed to him. So, I'm not sure that's a road you want to start down. And "probably" doesn't count for much.

    Parent
    Why are you doing this? (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by suki on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:52:31 AM EST
    Clearly you are not helping change any minds with you comments, just making people more angry than they already are.
    I believe you realize this, so again I ask, why are you doing it?
    What are you getting out of it?

    Parent
    It's certainly true that I'm not helping change (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by digdugboy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:01:15 AM EST
    minds of all Clinton supporters. Whether some few, or perhaps more, find my arguments persuasive or useful is not really susceptible to empirical analysis because you can expect that not everybody who reads my comments will respond to them.

    The principle behind the First Amendment is that people are smart enough to accept or reject ideas in the full marketplace of them. It's undemocratic to stifle this.

    I don't think anybody is served by allowing some few posters to continue to spew irrational and angry arguments unchallenged.

    Parent

    Yes, I wish the Obama (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by pie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:06:47 AM EST
    supporters would stop that and stop making false statements.

    That would help.

    Parent

    I don't think you can persuade anyone with (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:08:56 AM EST
    your comments.  Go over to big orange.

    Parent
    The best thing we could do (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by joanneleon on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:00:33 PM EST
    is to ignore him.

    People like digdugboy are looking for attention.  He's not looking to convince anyone as evidenced by the fact that he throws insults constantly.  If we ignore him, he will eventually go away.

    Parent

    How many psychiatrists does it take (1.00 / 4) (#170)
    by digdugboy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:10:52 AM EST
    to change the mind of a rabid Clinton supporter?

    One, but the . . .

    Parent

    What does it say about a grown man (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by suki on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:05:24 PM EST
    who gets his jollies by antagonizing people on the internet?

    Plenty.....


    Parent

    If they can't stand the heat (none / 0) (#213)
    by digdugboy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:09:45 PM EST
    they should get out of the kitchen.

    Now, let's saddle up and have a debate.

    Parent

    I am going to take my great-uncle's (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:40:00 PM EST
    advice on this. He said, "Never argue with someone when you know they are wrong." Good advice, I suggest we all take it in regards to this poster.

    Parent
    Keep Up The Good Work (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:16:54 AM EST
    BTD is attempting to persuade people on this site to unite behind Obama. You are counterbalancing his arguments and fanning the flames to ensure that his effort is not effective. Good job.

    Parent
    he actually is (none / 0) (#183)
    by CanadianDem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:38:56 AM EST
    trying to do just that....but I do chuckle reading the comments that basically say he is wrong, crazy etc etc from the regulars here...he knows what I'm talking about, intransigent to the extreme with fingers stuck in the ears.

    Parent
    I'm well aware (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by suki on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:37:36 AM EST
    of the principles behind the First Amendment and I'm not trying to 'stifle' anything.
    I just think your timing and approach aren't helping you make any points you do have. The condecension in your comment to me is an example of this.
    Your last line suggests to me that you place more importance on challenging than persuading.
    Good luck with that right now.

    Parent
    !st Amendment... applies to the government, (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:26:38 PM EST
    not to privately owned web sites.

    go to your boss, tell him or her that you are using your first amendment right of free expression and defecate on their desk.

    Then sue 'em after you're fired. See how that works out for you.

    JEralyn owns this site, and it's moderated. There's no, absolutely NO governmental manipulation of your rights if they tell you to leave or to be quiet.

    The first amendment would apply if the government attempted to stop your posting. It hasn't.

    Used to be, in 9th grade, folks took civics.

    Parent

    I think digdugboy (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:38:54 AM EST
    is a Republican troll at heart.  Working hard for John, are ya?

    Parent
    Do you know Stacie'sMom? (1.33 / 3) (#158)
    by digdugboy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:54:27 AM EST
    I hear she's got it going on!

    Parent
    Not susceptible to empirical analysis? (none / 0) (#159)
    by ap in avl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:55:07 AM EST
    So we can't call BS on your comments because not everyone will reply to your comments so how can we gauge the will of the commenters?

    Do you have exit polls on that?

    Parent

    The only reason (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:42:13 AM EST
    the MI primary did not count is that the RBC made an arbitrary decision to punish MI & FL, but not the other states that ignored the primary calendar.  

    Parent
    No, I'm outraged (5.00 / 8) (#24)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:43:05 AM EST
    about the fact that after 6 months of screaming THE ROOLZ at me, the DNC made a decision that they admit is not supported by any rules at all.

    Parent
    so they were (1.00 / 2) (#185)
    by CanadianDem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:41:00 AM EST
    inline with the Clinton ideology regarding no rules, or changing them consistently but did not execute the way the Clinton camp would have liked? That's what I'm reading here.

    Parent
    No, that's not why I'm outraged... (5.00 / 11) (#29)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:45:35 AM EST
    and I suspect you know that.

    But you'd rather insult me than grasp the larger point that Obama is illegitimate because he is demanding votes and delegates when he wasn't even on the ballot by his own choice.

    That is an un-democratic precedent and something that no Democrat, no matter what his/her name is, should be asking for. It's an absolute travesty.

    But go ahead, keep insulting and mocking people who don't support Obama. That's a sure way to win friends and influence people.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:58:08 AM EST
    I am outraged about vote stealing.  That you are not says a lot about you.

    Parent
    tell you what, keep on posting and insulting! (none / 0) (#100)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:45:14 AM EST
    that'll do it for you. multiply that by a few thousand and you have a loss in november. i however personally think it's too late for unity. but you keep on posting and losing votes.

    Parent
    I think the chances of our using the (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:33:55 AM EST
    process again is related to how well Obama does in Nov.


    That's too bad... (5.00 / 8) (#20)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:41:21 AM EST
    because it should be completely reformed no matter what.

    I am convinced Obama will lose should he be the nominee, but the problem remains whether he does so or not. The caucuses are far too heavily weighted at this point and have given Obama's campaign the illusion of broad-based support that he simply does not have.

    You don't need polls to figure that out - just look at election results. Why did HRC win the Texas primary and not the caucus? Why is Obama getting trounced by 30-40 points in elections at this point in time? If he is the clear choice, he should be trouncing HRC, not the other way around.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:54:09 AM EST
    but if by some miracle he should win all will be vindicated.

    Parent
    Don't worry, it won't happen (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:15:49 AM EST
    For reasons we've amply covered here (he's down in polls, regardless of claims by others; he won't win Ohio, PA, et. al; his numbers are down among women; tens of thousands of Hillary supporters now made furious in a Pyrrhic victory; etc.)

    Parent
    Will Dems for a Day vote for him in November? (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:36:50 PM EST
    Those "contests" Obama won in the winter will turn back into pumpkins.

    Parent
    vindicated? vindicated? i don't think so. (none / 0) (#101)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:45:58 AM EST
    This is the best we can do with what we have (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:34:49 AM EST
    to work with.  I believe the SDs selecting Obama are making a giant error but it is their error to make.

    you're absolutely correct. (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by cpinva on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:15:43 AM EST
    however, they should also suffer the consequences of their poor judgment, if (assuming he's the nominee) sen. obama gets trounced in nov. (which i believe he would), for exactly the reasons sen. clinton has detailed.

    but, they'll blame it on sen. clinton, as they have everything else.

    frankly, she's a much better human being than i, i'd have told most of them to go take a flying f*ck at a rolling donut by now.

    Parent

    She has demonstrated an outright (5.00 / 4) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:25:28 AM EST
    amazing ability to stay focused and not allow repeated attacks to divert her attention and energy down negative paths.  She could have easily become what her attackers were baiting her to turn into but she did not, she stayed true to herself and has demonstrated some of the most tremendous leadershiip I've seen in my lifetime.

    Parent
    It's amazing (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:27:38 AM EST
    We could all take a lesson from her. She has been the target of unmitigated and irrational hatred for 20 years, first from the right and then from her own party. If I were her, I would be curled up in a ball sucking my thumb and drooling in an asylum by now!

    Parent
    I am convinced that the reason (5.00 / 6) (#13)
    by Joelarama on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:37:08 AM EST
    Obama has a disproportionate number of superdelegates is because they are afraid of the doomsday scenario that Obamaphiles have dangled before them -- that African Americans will bolt the party if the nomination is "stolen" from Obama.

    It's blackmail.  And while I question the usefulness of battleground state polls purporting to show Clinton is more "electable" than Obama, they're a better basis for decision than fear.

    Obama gets my vote if he is the nom.  But he and the DNC have lost any financial support from me.

    I cannot reward (5.00 / 10) (#49)
    by magisterludi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:54:53 AM EST
    larceny and extortion, not to mention hypocrisy and bigotry- and that is pretty much how I see the RBC and the DNC as a whole now.

    There are some things so fundamentally wrong in this cycle, they cannot be ignored for the sake of "unity". I have never been so grievously offended by my own party and my faith in the system, wobbling still from 2000, is no more.

    These are very dark days.

    Parent

    Yes, by all means. (1.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Don in Seattle on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:02:37 AM EST
    Gnash your teeth, and rend your metaphorical loincloth.

    That'll help.

    Parent

    Yes. Go read Lance Mannion and how the (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:12:08 AM EST
    Obama camp succeeded in the "perception campaign."  That is the dynamic that sealed Hillary's fate.  A complicit media and spinning a narrative that was totally false and disingenuous.  Every Democrat should be outraged at how this nomination process has been conducted, and especially how it has been decided - backroom deals, etc.  

    Parent
    Don't Know About Mannion (none / 0) (#82)
    by flashman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:23:21 AM EST
    but if you provide a link, I'll read it.

    Parent
    No it's Sharpton's threat of massive riots in (none / 0) (#150)
    by suzieg on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:44:10 AM EST
    the streets a la 1968!

    Parent
    And former VA Gov. Wilder. (none / 0) (#154)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:51:37 AM EST
    He doesn't have the popular vote lead. (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:44:35 AM EST
    He won't.  You go on and try and legitimize him, I want no part of rewriting facts.

    Counting Votes (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by flashman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:03:49 AM EST
    that he did NOT receive in MI.  Let me get this straight, we should count votes in a contest he didn't compete in.  We're supposed to validate a theft of votes given to Hillary and awarded to Obama.  What a sham of a democracy.

    Parent
    while you're at it, (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by cpinva on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:18:39 AM EST
    can i have the olympic gold medal for the 100m dash in 2008? yes, i know i won't actually be in it, but i feel i deserve it, because many people really wanted to see me there.

    just mail it to me first class.

    Parent

    And We All Just Know (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by flashman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:21:33 AM EST
    you would have won if you chose to compete.

    Parent
    and you might bolt the party if they don't (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:48:28 AM EST
    give it to you. the fact you didn't compete has no baring at all. your supporters might get mad don't you know. and while they are at it, i always wanted one for the high jump.

    Parent
    I'm taking the Lucasian Chair in Mathematics ... (none / 0) (#217)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:49:27 PM EST
    ... and they better damn well throw in an ottoman.

    Parent
    Super Delegates choosing Obama (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by ajbb on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:44:54 AM EST
    The man has showed no leadership nor has he shown the ability to unite. This is the basic premise that he ran his campaign on. Oh, and yes that he espouses a new kind of politics. We've all seen what  that is and  no one can tell me it is a good thing. The super D's were swayed with the money. As they say, "money talks." This gets him nowhere in November. The independents and Republicans won't fall prey to "just words."

    Nice post BTD (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by cannondaddy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:46:05 AM EST
    I think you have a far greater sense of personal honesty than some give you credit for.  You may  get a little emotional sometimes, but passion should not be considered a fault.  If I ever offended you, please know I always respected you.

    I'm not sure what changes should be made.  States should have the option of caucus if they chose it.  Maybe delegate allocation to states should be adjusted for caucus states.  I think the proportional allocation needs tweeking.  Maybe the winner should half of delegates and the rest divided proportionally.  I don't think the "winner take all" approach leaves any reason for states with late primaries to even particapate.  The number of superdelegates needs to be reduced severely.

    Of course thiose who question my honesty (none / 0) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:50:26 AM EST
    are those ho do not like what I say.

    Have you ever seen anyone actually demonstrate that I have said anything that is false. OF course I say things they DISAGREE with, but when has anyone demonstrated that I wrote falsehoods.

    I ask only that people respect the facts. We can opine in many ways, but fatcs are facts.

    Parent

    but I've never questioned your honesty and, indeed, have used you as a check on my own tendency towards irrational exeuberance.  

    Thanks for you work this cycle and, especially, for this important post.

    Parent

    Well spoken BTD. (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:47:07 AM EST
    Even if I am the only clapping.

    Please use some of your valuable real estate to explan chapter and verse what the conservatives have done with the Court since 1968;  why they will not nominate controversial nominees like Haynesworth, or Carswell or Bork. Why future GOP nominees will be young and healthy and seemingly non-controversial.

    Why more than just Roe is at stake.

    They have put 12 nominees on the court. We have put two. The picks they consider mistakes are at best 3 or 4. That by changing the ideological makeup, they have less need to nominate justices which used to be considered center right- no more Stevens or O'Conners.  Roberts is now the model of centrist in their eyes.  

    In time (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:48:37 AM EST
    Right now, we need to understand this nomination process.

    Parent
    I understand fully the nomination process. And I (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:16:26 AM EST
    understand that Obama will get his butt kicked in November as a result of the nomination process.  I don't need to get on a unity bandwagon and I will not be blackmailed into voting for someone who has received the nomination by gaming the system and receiving credit for votes and delegates that he did not earn.  I have been voting since before you were born, BTD, so I don't need any lessons on how this process works.  Thanks anyway.

    Parent
    Do you really think so? (1.00 / 2) (#172)
    by Don in Seattle on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:12:20 AM EST
    Do you really think Obama's victory margin will be the two (2) disputed delegate votes he got as a result of the MDP/RBC Compromise?

    Does anyone know where we keep the paper bags? We've got a lot of people hyperventilating here.

    Parent

    I suggest Molly Bloom be promoted (none / 0) (#188)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:51:37 AM EST
    to the front page for the purpose of a daily post on why it matters who is the next President of the U.S.  Perhaps w/no comments allowed.

    Parent
    I wish the DNC (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by magisterludi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:06:02 AM EST
    would have thought of the Supreme Court conundrum BEFORE anointing Obama as the nominee.

    The road to Hell was paved by the short-sighted and callow DNC. Take it up with them.

    Parent

    The court is in the voters' hands, not the DNC (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:09:18 AM EST
    use your power wisely.

    Parent
    No, the court is in the DNC's hands. (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:54:27 AM EST
    By breaking every conceivable covenant with the voters, they have made it impossible for some of us to vote for their candidate.  They had a choice but tossed it aside. Saturday was the last straw for many of us. The current makeup of the Supreme Court is not the fault of the voters in the Democratic Party.  We have been voting for their losing candidates all along. It hasn't reaped anything for us except disrespect and disregard. It's time for the DNC to take responsibility for its actions.  No amount of SCOTUS blackmail will work. If the DNC follows its current path, John McCain will be the next POTUS. The ramifications of McCain's appointments may be felt for a long time, and I understand that Roe v. Wade is just the tip of the iceberg. Don't assume that we are unaware.

    Parent
    The voter has the last word about the court (none / 0) (#117)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:58:27 AM EST
    come November. Only you can prevent forest... er.. a right wing court.

    Parent
    why don't you go and lecture obama (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:27:16 AM EST
    supporters for awhile. we don't need or want it. in fact all it does is harnden our resolve.

    Parent
    I go where I am needed (none / 0) (#155)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:52:04 AM EST
    I was a participant on this blog before this election and I will be one afterwards.

    I have lectured supporters of all the candidates at one time or another on the need for civility, unity, and respect both here and on Mydd. I have done so today here on this blog with Obama supporters.

    The court is a big issue for me.

    Parent

    i can appreciate the court being a big (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:02:45 AM EST
    issue with you. i am sorry but i just don't think obama is the answer to your concerns.

    Parent
    McCain is not the answer (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:08:40 AM EST
    relying on a Democratic congress is not the answer. To me the choice is stark and thus easy for me to make.

    Respectfully, today we must disagree. Perhaps between now and fall we can find common ground.

    Parent

    we'll talk another day. (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:24:23 AM EST
    have a good one!

    Parent
    Isn't it our elected democratic congress's (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by americanincanada on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:36:25 AM EST
    job to stop McCain or any other president from appointing conservative judges? Isn't Nancy Pelosi supposed to lead that charge? Isn't that why we elect them?

    I am more afraid that congress will rubber stamp Obama's choices than I am McCain's choices making it through.

    Parent

    Um - Nancy Pelosi I am sure would (none / 0) (#176)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:16:45 AM EST
    do her best to stop a bad SCOTUS appointment if she were actually working in the Senate.

    Still, given the fact that the Dem Senate has bowed to Bush's nominees, I think you're engaging in wishful thinking if you think the legislative branch is going to protect you.

    Parent

    And do (none / 0) (#192)
    by kenoshaMarge on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:01:08 PM EST
    you really believe that Nancy Pelosi would do her best to stop a bad SCOTUS nominee if she was in the Senate? I don't see Nancy doing much of anything except flapping her yap and knuckling under to Bush. My disgust with the Demcratic Party does not begin and end with the DNC and the actions taken in this primary. It begins with their election to a majority in 2006 and their absolute inability to do anything since.

    Parent
    I plan on (none / 0) (#94)
    by magisterludi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:38:47 AM EST
    using my diminished power and vote my conscience.

    The DNC needs to be schooled in using their power wisely, far more so than the voters. It's pretty clear we are at their mercy.

    Parent

    If your conscience can stomach (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:44:00 AM EST
    a far right court...

    Parent
    please don't threaten us! (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:50:17 AM EST
    that argument about courts doesn't play well. take a good look at what the dems have not done including obama about judges.

    Parent
    Pointing out a reality is not a threat. n/t (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:54:55 AM EST
    the reality is obama is going to lose in (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:20:16 AM EST
    november due to the highly divisive politics he has used and the utter lack of real leadership in the dnc and democratic party.

    Parent
    This is a counter-productive argument. (1.00 / 1) (#119)
    by magisterludi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:00:14 AM EST
    Strong-arming after the fact is obnoxious.

    Parent
    Just pointing out the facts (none / 0) (#123)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:06:58 AM EST
    mostly tactfully, occasionally tactless.

    Parent
    I don't think (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by magisterludi on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:18:25 AM EST
    you're stating fact. but prognostication. Whether Obama will uphold Roe remains a ? in many minds. Kmeic's recent endorsement doesn't help, either.

    Parent
    What McCain would do is no mystery (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:43:34 AM EST
    and that is not a prognostication. He has stated he will appoint more Scalias. As for Obama, see here

    Parent
    What about a Demcratic controlled Congress, (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:49:45 AM EST
    in numbers greater than today, leads you to belive ANYONE can get a Scalia seated on SCOTUS?  

    Parent
    He won't be named Scalia (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:54:14 AM EST
    he will be a stealth nominee of impeccable credentials, both in law and as a conservative. Do not assume McCain is an idiot. He can follow the Bork model or the Roberts model. No brainer as to what will be done or how it will be done.

    Parent
    Ooh, A stealth SCOTUS nominee. (none / 0) (#163)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:57:47 AM EST
    Is that all you have?  

    Parent
    Is mocking all you have (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:00:26 AM EST
    I, at least, have the history of supreme court nominees since 1968 on my side.

    You apparently have no argument at all.

    Parent

    Rather, (none / 0) (#168)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:04:04 AM EST
    I'm not convinced by yours.

    Parent
    using the courts as a tactic to (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:24:22 AM EST
    cajole or influence us to vote for obama is fruitless. many have more fear of obama than mccain. why? i have named the reasons over and over. i intend to write in hillary's name. i have learned over the years to trust my judgement. i don't use magical thinking. there are so many red flags that i can't count them with obama. by the way i felt the same way about bush2 before he was elected. but that's me. just saying after all this please don't try and push folks around that have already been pushed to their limits.

    Parent
    My fear of a far right court (none / 0) (#102)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:46:26 AM EST
    is less than my fear of another Carter presidency.  And just think, we have/had the opportunity for another Clinton presidency.

    Parent
    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:48:34 AM EST
    Afraid of Jimmy Carter, not afraid of a right wing court... hmmm...

    Parent
    Your implication (none / 0) (#107)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:50:14 AM EST
    belies your motive.

    Parent
    Its not my implication (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:56:15 AM EST
    But your umbrage is a good sign. Obama is not Jimmy Carter or McGovern, two men who I respect, BTW.

    You should be afraid of a right wing court. It will last longer than any presidency, certainly longer than a "repeat of Jimmy Carter".

    Jimmy Carter is a good man, who was right about a lot of things, including the energy crises. I will concede he was not as inspiring as Bill Clinton or FDR.

    Parent

    IMO, Carter was on the money, theoretically. (none / 0) (#122)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:04:45 AM EST
    In practicality, the only thing that saved his presidency from being labeled the worst in modern times is W.

    Parent
    I would have to disagree (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:09:48 AM EST
    I would view both George I and Ron Reagan as worse than Carter. Reagan may have been more inspiring to some, but the practical effects have been more adverse and long lasting.

    Parent
    Not sticking up for Reagan, (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:18:23 AM EST
    but he was elected twice, and then his VP was elected.  Carter hurt the Dem party.  Clinton saved it.  And now Dems show their loyalty.

    Parent
    Bill Clinton, not Hillary (none / 0) (#197)
    by independent voter on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:16:03 PM EST
    how have they become interchangeable in your mind?

    Parent
    The effects of a far right court would (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:54:19 AM EST
    last much, much longer than the effects of another Carter presidency.

    I would re-think your options here - especially since the Carter presidency thing is speculation while we all know exactly what a far right court for the next 30 years will do to this democracy.

    Parent

    What effects of a far right court (3.00 / 2) (#120)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:00:46 AM EST
    are you and other Obama supporters threatening Clinton supporters with?  Overtutrning Roe vs. Wade?  Ain't gonna happen!  Not in these United States.  In the meantime, a saavy neophite is going to lead the Dem party, the country, and the free world.  I say look out.  If you think Carter's presidency hurt Dems, just wait.  I have little optimism for this success.  Nothing points to it.  

    Parent
    Okay first - I'm an Edwards girl... (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:07:34 AM EST
    and second Roe v. Wade is very much at stake here, but there is much much more to fear from the Constitutional originalists that McCain would appoint than that.  Some of those people are so extreme that they don't believe that the Bill of Rights are valid.  And if you think this Democratic Congress is going to protect you from McCain's picks, you're smokin' somethin'.  I have a feeling that Obama's SCOTUS picks will not be satisfactory to me, but they won't ever be as bad as what McCain will deliver.

    Parent
    Full disclosure: (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:11:45 AM EST
    Ever since the Obama campaign smeared the Clintons as racists, I decided I could never support Obama.  I have voted for Obama for elected office.  Now, I'm digusted with him.  Have been harboring this since NH.

    Parent
    I have a lot of resentment and fear about (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:29:31 AM EST
    that, but he may be what I have to live with - I don't think he's going to start a war with Iran - so I do think I'll probably live through his presidency with some minor cuts and bruises rather than fearing for my life.

    John McCain is one of the nastiest individuals in Washington.  I can live with Obama for a few years if I have to.  Of course, my candidates never win the nomination so I am used to coping with supporting my second, third and fourth choices...

    Parent

    At least McCain (none / 0) (#145)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:37:22 AM EST
    never called the Clintons racists.  And he's in the oppo party.

    Parent
    No, but he has done many things to (none / 0) (#152)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:48:57 AM EST
    this country that are far more dammaging and injurious than name-calling could ever be.

    Parent
    I will not reward a political tactic (none / 0) (#161)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:55:52 AM EST
    as divisive that has been with my vote.  In addition, where's the resume that warrants the nomination, let alone the presidency?  Hillary has one.

    Parent
    I was disappointed with the Carter presidency (none / 0) (#142)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:35:54 AM EST
    I was a Ted Kennedy supporter in 1980. 28 years is a long time to regret your vote in a seminal election (which 1980 turned out to be). 2008 should be/could be another seminal election.

    Bill Clinton may have saved the Democratic party, but he did not and will not lead it to the promised land of realignment. He did much to make realignment possible, and for that he deserves praise.

    Parent

    obama has given no indication that he (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:26:03 AM EST
    is going to uphold roe v wade. i don't see it. i see him giving to whatever group that is there what they ask for in order to have power. that doesn't say democratic messiah to me.

    Parent
    The justices he would send to the court (none / 0) (#141)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:35:09 AM EST
    probably would uphold Roe v. Wade.  I don't think Obama is as strong on reproductive rights as I might like him to be, but I believe it is a strech - a big stretch - to claim that he wouldn't support the notion of upholding Roe v. Wade.  There are plenty of reasons Obama wouldn't be my first choice - in fact he never was and hasn't managed to win my trust or support at all over the course of this primary - but if he is my choice in the Dem slate, then I'll vote for him and be very vocal every time his administration does something I don't like.  That's all I can do in a democracy.

    Parent
    Roe vs. Wade is not a concern. (none / 0) (#147)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:41:28 AM EST
    It will never be overturned.  

    Parent
    That's the thinking that got us this far (none / 0) (#162)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:56:58 AM EST
    - we've been chipping away at it for years now.  Tons of people I knew who voted for Bush believed he would never allow Roe to be attacked and they now understand that they were wrong.  John McCain is as anti-choice as they come and frankly even if he didn't believe in over turning Roe v. Wade as a principle, the guy is such a political slime that he'd do it because it wouldn't hurt him and he would please his base.  So please don't go around saying that it will never happen.  That is false.  It could very easily be over-turned if McCain gets in.

    Parent
    What are you talking about? (none / 0) (#167)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:02:50 AM EST
    The Christioan Coalition came out in droves to support W hoping he would get R v W overturned.  Are they doing so now for McCain.  More Obama supporter threats.

    Parent
    Are you just trying to cause trouble? (none / 0) (#171)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:12:08 AM EST
    Again - Edwards girl here - and in case you missed it - the court is not stacked properly to over turn Roe v. Wade YET.  McCain will put them over the top.

    Parent
    You don't have a convincing argument (none / 0) (#177)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:22:21 AM EST
    so you make it personal?  Good job.

    Parent
    Actually, you aren't making any sense (none / 0) (#181)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:34:00 AM EST
    and you continue to call me an Obama supporter which seems to indicate that you aren't actually comprehending anything that you are supposedly responding to.

    In any case, the "it will never happen" as a rationalization for anything in politics as far as I am concerned was blown out of the water by the Bush Presidency.  There were a lot of things that were "impossible" and now I think it is proven that nothing is impossible - John McCain will not be any less zealous about attacking Iran, appointing nutcase judges, and generally destroying the last vestiges of this democracy.

    But carry on believing that Obama would be worse than that.  You obviously can't see how high the stakes are here.

    Parent

    Does this make sense for YOU? (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:49:57 AM EST
    1.  Obama has no experience.
    2.  Obama polarized the party.
    3.  He has done little to nothing to court Hillary's supporters
    4.  An Obama presidency is risky; what do we have to judge what it might be?
    5.  A failed Obama presidency would harm the Dem party in ways the Carter presidency did.
    6.  Hillary 2012 is appealing (if we can't get Hillary 2008).
    7.  Finally, Roe vs. Wade is not a threat.


    Parent
    Maybe this will help (none / 0) (#146)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:40:46 AM EST
    Bill Moyers Journal May 23, 2008

    So it is true that the conservatives don't have total control. But they're very close.

    BILL MOYERS: That's what the election's about, right?

    JEFFREY TOOBIN: That's what the elect- especially when you have John Paul Stevens just celebrating his 88th birthday. Ruth Ginsburg, her 75th birthday. David Souter, 68 and not really wanting to stay on the Court much longer. That's why it's very significant-

    BILL MOYERS: What was the dog whistle Obama was blowing on the campaign trail when he mentioned the late Chief Justice Earl Warren?

    JEFFREY TOOBIN: Oh, that's very clear. It is saving Roe versus Wade. It is allowing the consideration of race in college admissions. It is strict limits on the death penalty. It is special regard for the separation of church and state. You know, Obama is a former Constitutional Law Professor. And I've had the opportunity to talk to him about the Constitution. He still follows the Court very, very closely. He mentioned Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer as Justices he admired. So I don't think there's any doubt what kind of Justices he'll appoint to-

    BILL MOYERS: Liberal Justices?

    JEFFREY TOOBIN: Liberal Justices but also I think Justices with some real-world experience. You know, this is the first Court in history where all nine Justices are former Federal Appeals Court Judges. I think the Court's missing something. And I think Obama feels that way, too.



    Parent
    toobin thinks? sorry but i have had more (none / 0) (#156)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:52:58 AM EST
    than enough of what pundits think!

    Parent
    The key problem with this primary imo (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:51:34 AM EST
    in romance.  Instead of being practical and going for a down and dirty win in November - a clean straight-forward grab for power with a strong nominee - the Dems got more caught up in the romantic notion of electing of women and minority candidates than the idea of winning for the sake of the country and the Democratic platform.  Issues took a back seat and the popularity contest ensued.  We forgot what bonds us all together as Democrats and instead focused on petty and stupid he said she said debates that have nothing to do with what this country is facing right now.  I don't care what color or what gender the next president is, I care about what the hell they can do to fix the enormous number of problems that we as a nation are facing right now.  That's what I wish the DNC and the Supers and everyone else were really focused on because after these political beauty contests are over, if we win - if, if, if - the real WORK begins.  I think Clinton is up to it - I have my doubts about Obama though.  Neither is my dream candidate, but honestly this country is so messed up right now that I will be grateful for what I get from a Dem versus what I know I would get from McCain.

    Parent
    I get what you're saying, IH (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by Eleanor A on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:31:12 AM EST
    Plus, I remember your well-reasoned posts from Orange Hell.

    I think what you're not taking into account is the fact that many Hillary supporters see Obama's willingness to go along with Roberts and feel like the SC argument is just another empty ploy on the part of Obama people to get them to go along with him sans objectivity.

    We already feel he hasn't the necessary experience, now we've seen his scorched-earth campaign tactics.  Why should we believe he'd do anything to accommodate our concerns, when he's metaphorically spit in our eyes at every possible turn?

    I'm not going to vote for McCain, personally - my concern is this.  I live in a region of the country (the South) where Obama will not win one state.  He won't win KY, AR and at this point I'd guess he won't win VA.  It doesn't matter who I vote for, since he won't win my home state of TN no matter what happens.  (My state is one of three - the others are OH and MO - that have voted for the winner in every election since 1960.  A fact which ought to give Obama supporters great pause.)

    Anyway, I feel like my outrage is reflective of what I'm seeing and hearing in my own community, and in spades.  It's not exactly a secret that Obama's used thuggish tactics in order to gain advantage.  Many folks where I live see him trying to skate on the voting record he continually distorts.  Who are they going to believe, him or their lying eyes, when they see video of him mocking them, repeatedly.

    There's genuine love for Bill Clinton here.  Obama hurt himself badly by attacking the former President and solidified the idea in many people's minds that, whatever Democratic Party Obama's from, it isn't theirs.

    It's for all these reasons and more that Obama simply cannot win.  What I personally choose to do on Election Day is really beside the point.  

    It's too bad more people on the Obama side of the fence - some of whom I'm still convinced are good people - didn't think of more of these issues while they were cruelly alienating many others on Hillary's side of the aisle when they really didn't need to go that far.

    I guess I'm on the side of those who think the Democratic Party has now been damaged, and perhaps irrevocably so, by people who just don't get it.  Perhaps Obama's tactics fly in Chicago and other large cities.  But speaking for the 50% of the voters who live in rural areas?  I wouldn't count on seeing another Democratic Presidential nomination with a real shot for at least a decade after this debacle.

    Parent

    I agree with you 100% (5.00 / 6) (#40)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:49:53 AM EST
    The super delegates have the right to decide based on anything they want to.

    What I will NEVER agree with is the notion of the Obama supporters that the super delegate MUST select the candidate who leads in pledged delegates and to do otherwise would be "stealing" the nomination.

    It is also true that I, as a lifelong democrat, have no obligation to support or vote for Obama in Nov.  I, like all the super delegates, can use whatever information I want to use to decide how I will vote in the fall.

    Obama will have his chance to convince me to vote for him.  But, so far, he and his supporters have done nothing toward that end.  On Sunday, one day after the party insiders begged for the unifying processes to begin, Obama supporters were online belittling the voters of Puerto Rico.  This doesn't sound like a group of people I want to be unified with.  Obama's supporters have told me many times that they don't want or need my vote.  So, fine...  Let Obama try to earn it back.

    Here are some things that will help convince me.

    1. Offer the VP slot to Clinton.  If she WANTS it, it is hers.

    2. Obama should declare the he will NEVER support Donna Brazile to head the DNC.  Her behavior satrting with the "fairy tale" comment and ending with the Rules Cmte mtg has been totally inappropriate.  She cemented that opinon of her for me with her commentary on CNN Sunday.

    3. Admit that his campaign intentionally and by design used race-baiting against Clinton in order to kill the support she had among African Americans.

    4. Come out and state that he and his campaign do not want, need or approve of the support of web based supporters such as AmericaBlog, DailyKos and HuffingtonPost that have promoted and engaged in some of the most vitriolic anti-Clinton bashing anyone could ever imagine.


    Number 4 (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:23:34 AM EST
    I agree, but can they be thrown under a different bus than the rest of us?

    Parent
    You can quarrel with the fact (5.00 / 9) (#52)
    by esmense on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:55:49 AM EST
    that this was a predetermined decision. Everything -- from the harsh, early and persistent calls for her to leave the race from party officials, to the refusal to find an early and fair resolution to the Michigan and Florida mess, to the ugly, over-the-top, unprecedented character assasination she has endured (including being smeared as a racist and portrayed as as calling for her opponent's assassination by the Obama campaign) because of her refusal to leave the race has made it obvious that anything, no matter how low or unethical, would be done to keep her from the top of the ticket and to justify denying her the nomination. Obama is fortunate in his early caucas victories that gave him his slight delegate lead. But if the situation had been reversed, with Clinton holding that slight delegate lead, there is no doubt that doing so would not be considered as "legitimate" as BTD now suggests it is.

    The Super delegates have done what is within their right to do, but let's not forget that it is not what they were REQUIRED to do. Or necessarily what is best for the Democratic party in November.

    This decision wasn't made to place the strongest candidate at the top of the ticket. It was made to prevent the male party establishment from having to accept endure, for the first time in history, a female leader.

    True, but you can lose SDs just as quick... (5.00 / 5) (#53)
    by Exeter on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:57:24 AM EST
    ...as you can gain them. Clinton is not well positioned to the win the nomination, but Obama is not well positioned to KEEP the nomination if he should hit ANY significant road bump between now and the convention.

    That pretty much (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by pie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:00:23 AM EST
    nails it right there.

    Parent
    That's true and I think that the Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:37:08 AM EST
    camp understands that dynamic.  Of course, Reid and Pelosi are trying to whip the supers into committing and staying firm, but the possibility that there is a shift in the current trend is still very real.

    Parent
    One of mine is flipping (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:01:22 AM EST
    Article in our local paper.  One of my CA SDs refers to Pelosi and says he wants to end it.  He's a Clinton SD.

    I will be writing my SDs again.  I will be polite but I won't be nice.

    There is so little accurate reporting (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by dotcommodity on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:07:25 AM EST
    that the Superdelegates are, like everyone, under illusions about the simple facts upon which to base decisions.

    One example:

    Howard Dean thinks that the youth vote is responsible for the high turnout.

    I just combed through the AP and Reuters etc, and they all mis state what we saw happen Saturday, to imply that "despite a satisfactory decision to both sides, however, Clinton will press her (unreasonable, obviously, therefor) claims re Michigan.

    Your head explodes.

    And in the old days, you could be sure that litigatormom or someone, would have a big juicy diary exposing this on dailykos, and you'd see the diary sail to the top of the google and your blood pressure would go down a bit...and you could get on with your life.

    Now we are all cramped over here in this tiny blue room and the other places but the rational side of the Democratic party is nowhere as powerful as we were there, simply because of the design of the site, with its many amenities.

    Conversely, over there now illiterate hordes of youtube kiddies pen 10 word "diaries" racing past with 5 commenters so there is just no point in writing even about other matters there any more. No critical thinkers are left there to read.

    So where?

    How are we going to fund the Senate races?
    How are we going to write the diaries to influence policy?

    This split they engineered is a tragedy for Truth, Justice and the American Way.

    Re Accurate Reporting (none / 0) (#204)
    by drman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:35:28 PM EST
    I know you're upset so I understand if the emotion of all of this is a little too much for some of us. However, the section of the article that you quote is in fact accurate, provided that the "both sides" referenced are Michigan and Florida Democratic parties.

    Both states' parties indicated that they felt this outcome was appropriate and gave them an opportunity to have their voters' concerns addressed.

    If the Democratic leadership of the states whose voters had been (per some arguments) wronged feel that this outcome is fair given the rules under which they operate, why do you feel that this article was inaccurate?

    Further, if the states feel that this outcome is acceptable, is the Clinton campaign, by its implication that it will fight on in opposition to this decision, claiming to be in a better position to know what's right for these states than the Democratic leadership in these states?

    Parent

    This brings me back to the when (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:33:04 AM EST
    I was repeatedly attacked for pointing out that Obama might just need those super delegates one day.  The mob would have none of that talk at the time.  Now they write diaries about how great they are for endorsing Obama.

    I wonder if they'll figure out that just like the formerly "evil" supers they will need Clinton supporters in order to win the November election.  Thing is that supers are easy

    Has it struck anyone else as strange how many people have been villified in this race?  I've been keeping a mental list of how many good Dems have been visciously attacked for their open support of Clinton.  There is something disturbingly pathological about how this is all playing out.

    Sounds like an Obama supporter (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:35:43 AM EST
    who doesn't support the 50 state stragegy.  

    No - Republican troll (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:59:23 AM EST
    Must be because s/he is drumming up support for McCain.

    Parent
    super delegates in their wisdom???? (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:40:09 AM EST
    btd, i appreciate your wisdom and point of view however i don't look at the super delegates and think wisdom. i think very foolish and out of touch with reality. that's what i think.

    Hillary just picked up a super (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by americanincanada on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:53:07 AM EST
    Interestingly enough from a state Obama won.

    The release is very interesting:

    Louisiana Democratic Party Chair and Automatic Delegate Chris Whittington Endorses Hillary

    Louisiana Democratic State Party Chair and automatic delegate Chris Whittington announced his support for Hillary Clinton today.

    "Hillary Clinton has what it takes to turn around our economy and rebuild the middle class," Whittington said. "There is no question that she is the strongest Democrat to go toe-to-toe with John McCain in a general election.  It is our responsibility as automatic delegates to choose the candidate we believe best fit to beat Senator McCain. That candidate is Senator Clinton."

    Whittington was elected Chairman of the Louisiana Democratic Party in January 2006, after serving as the Party's Legal Counsel, as a member of the Democratic State Central Committee and as a member of the Democratic Party Executive Committee


    BTD - on May 31, you (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by jes on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:30:12 AM EST
    had Obama ahead as follows:

    With those adjustments, my popular vote totals have Barack Obama with a 112,000 (or 62,000 if you only allocate 75% of the Michigan uncommitted vote as discussed above) vote lead out of a total of over 35,000,000 votes cast

    link

    So I do not understand why HRC is still behind in your count. She should now be ahead by about 32,000.

    Never underestimate the power of fear (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by blogtopus on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:32:14 AM EST
    I'd like to say that that seems to be the prevailing quality of the Super D's.

    1. We don't want to upset the vast majority of Creative Types.
    2. We don't want to be held responsible if Clinton Loses (because despite all the scientifically gathered evidence, the Creative Types say she will!)
    3. We don't want to be held hostage by the Clinton family, who have been such a detriment to our brand in the past couple decades. Who wants to be constantly attacked by Cable News? Not US, that's for sure.
    4. We wantses our precious money, and Obama is the key to the golden kingdom (because he WON'T lose, and he WON'T disappoint the masses, and he WON'T have any more scandals that will sour his appeal in the next few years.) Fundraisers for Everyone!

    Let's just change our party symbol to a rabbit and get it over with, shall we? The Silver Wire is in full effect, and we have our Silverweed to spin wonderful poems about it.

    sounds like magical thinking to me. (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:55:13 AM EST
    that doesn't win elections.

    Parent
    Not only has it not happened (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by americanincanada on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:48:33 PM EST
    but Clinton has gained two supers to Obama's four today and counting.

    OOps (none / 0) (#211)
    by americanincanada on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:51:23 PM EST
    Obama only has three so far on the day...Mark Halperin has corrected the numbers.

    Parent
    Only Edwards (1.00 / 1) (#189)
    by kenoshaMarge on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:51:41 AM EST
    and Obama removed their names. At least tell the truth. And Richardson is dumb in IMHO.

    Hillary was campaigning (1.00 / 1) (#190)
    by ding7777 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:58:06 AM EST
    to be the "leader of the free world" and you suggest she should have followed Obama's ill conceived choice?

    Since NC and IN (none / 0) (#48)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:54:47 AM EST
    the SDs have largely made what you are saying here quite clear.

    IMO It Was Quite Clear Before That Time (5.00 / 5) (#87)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:29:16 AM EST
    The writing was on the wall when members of Dem leadership allowed the Clintons to be publicly censored by Dems for any perceived slight and remained silent on the actions of the Obama campaign. The writing was on the wall when Dem leadership did not try to stop Brazile and other Obama surrogates from perpetuating the "MLK and Fantasy" myth of racism by the Clintons. The writing was on the wall when Pelosi weighed in about delegate counts being the only determining factor and when Dean came out with statements that supported Obama's positions.

    Nothing new here at all. It has been going on since the first months of the campaign.

    Parent

    Specifics please... (none / 0) (#206)
    by drman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:44:03 PM EST
    I want a democrat in the White House in November and from where I sit, Obama is the candidate I believe holds the most promise for this country.

    We will simply have to disagree respectfully about our respective interpretations of the Clintons' actions and words. However, I want to understand the specific Obama campaign actions you reference here that the leadership has overlooked. Far too often, both candidates' supporters resort to generalities and emotion-filled venting instead of calm analysis. Please understand that I'm not attacking your position; I just need to understand the space between us.

    Parent

    I hate the entrie nominating system (none / 0) (#64)
    by Arjun on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:06:26 AM EST
    I would be in favor of a national primary, with the winner decided purely on the national popular vote. The current staggered system gives disproportionate power to certain states. Frankly, I don't see why Iowans should be the presidential wine tasters for the rest of the country (mostly because I don't find ethanol subsidies to be all that important to me). Voters in later states then feel that their choice has less of an impact in the nominee, and may consider their candidate of choice as non-viable.

    Of course superdelegates wouldn't be used in such a system, but then again they probably wouldn't be necessary since the popular vote would be the sole factor in determining the victor.

    SD's do indeed decide (none / 0) (#97)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:43:15 AM EST
    this primary as the election is essentially and even statistically (given margins of error in voting) tied. And I completely agree it is their right and their job. The Democratic party nominee will be selected by SD's this election cycle, not by the voters themselves.

    And of course as is their job, it is also their responsibility to make the right decision, and to make a sound decision. If they make a selection and that choice looses in November, then they must also take responsibility for that. And we will hold them accountable. Make no mistake.

    As far as the process, the Democratic party primary process is in a shambles and an embarrassment. It is anything but democratic. The caucuses have been proven to be very undemocratic and very non representational. We will see in November if the SD system put in place to make adjustments to a flawed system have served their purpose. If not, then the SD's should be taken out of office if elected or taken out of a position of power if not, and the SD system should either be eliminated all together or severely overhauled.

    Move-ons Petition (none / 0) (#116)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:56:50 AM EST
    Remember back in the old days when Move-on got everyone, except us, to sign this petition?
    The superdelegates are under lots of pressure right now to come out for one candidate or the other. We urgently need to encourage them to let the voters decide between Clinton and Obama--and then to support the will of the people.

    First, Moveon created the notion that the SDs would steal the election if they voted within their rights.  
    Second, if you look when the talk of the "will of the people" Hillary has the better argument on popular votes.  
    Third, SDs will now go with where the money is and where they will not face "racist" accusations.  Look at Byrd, he followed the will of the people.  

    Who died and made Hillary Rosen queen? (none / 0) (#121)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:01:16 AM EST


    November (none / 0) (#144)
    by whecht on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:36:29 AM EST
    When you have the law on your side then you argue the law.

    When you have the facts on your side argue the facts

    Can someone explain to me why someone who supports Clinton would not support Obama in November?

    Can someone explain to me why someone who supports Obama would not support Clinton in November?

    Ask someone who voted for Nader in either New Hampshire or Florida in 2000?

    The problem is (none / 0) (#148)
    by Foxx on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:41:34 AM EST
    most of the people she would be "leading" have sided against her.

    If true, that is their problem (none / 0) (#195)
    by herb the verb on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:11:32 PM EST
    They chose Obama as president. They didn't necessarily "side against her".

    The two are not the same.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#182)
    by talex on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:37:01 AM EST
    I did call the others ones dumb now that you mention it. And they were.

    Clinton, not Obama, has a 20,000 vote lead (none / 0) (#194)
    by dwmorris on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:06:47 PM EST
    This includes
    • the FL vote
    • the RCP estimates for the IA, NV, ME, and WA caucuses
    • the MI vote with the uncommitted votes apportioned between Obama, Edwards, and Richardson in accordance with the published exit poll data

    To give Obama the lead under any reasonable scenario requires one to assign him votes cast for other candidates not currently in the race.

    And Hillary is within her rights to (none / 0) (#196)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:11:51 PM EST
    take it to the convention. I hope she does so.

    Comment from another site (none / 0) (#198)
    by americanincanada on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:18:37 PM EST
    In the Department of Hypocritical Irony: Today: Obama responds to McCain AIPAC speech this morning by saying he has long supported branding the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization.


    HEh link? (none / 0) (#200)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:25:20 PM EST
    Here's the link (none / 0) (#208)
    by americanincanada on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:47:12 PM EST
    I cannot believe that OBama is now using touting the fact that he proposed calling the IRG a terrorist organization long before the vote in question. Didn't he rail against Clinton for voting to do just that?!?!?

    I really look forward to your take on this BTD.

    LINK

    A snippet:

    FACT CHECK

    OBAMA HAS CONSISTENTLY URGED THAT IRAN'S REVOLUTIONARY GUARD BE LABELED WHAT IT IS: A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION

    Obama Cosponsored The Iran Counter-Proliferation Act, Which Would Designate The Iranian Revolutionary Guard As A Terrorist Organ, Prohibit Trade With Iran, Freeze Iranian Officials' Assets, Help Combat Terrorist Financing.

    Parent

    Hey, I believe that Obama will (none / 0) (#202)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:27:19 PM EST
    negotiate with terrorists----look at Ayers!

    Parent
    What If... (none / 0) (#199)
    by drman on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:20:39 PM EST
    What if Hillary ultimately acknowledges her defeat and tells her supporters to vote for Obama; what will you do?

    No question (none / 0) (#207)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:44:05 PM EST
    Talkleft will support Obama. BTD and I have said numerous times we will vote for the Democratic nominee.

    Parent
    At the conclusion of Saturday's mtg., (none / 0) (#205)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:38:57 PM EST
    I expected the remaining Super-Ds to announce their preferences this weekend, espec. since such firm Clinton supporters as Huffman endorsed the "compromise" position in the interest of unity.

    Query:  why hasn't this happened?

    automatic (none / 0) (#210)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:48:54 PM EST
    delegates?  Are those the 27 the RBC gave him Sat. for no reason at all?