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Sunday Afternoon Open Thread

I'm out for the afternoon.

If you're stuck at work or staying inside to avoid high temperatures -- or any other reason -- here's a place to chat.

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    The pleasures of last week (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:03:08 PM EST
    I know, it was depressing, but in some ways, I found myself involved in some gloating as the typical political behavior is being exhibited and the order of "change" is getting some reality checks.  

    Yeah, I thought (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    we'd have to wait until AFTER the election for that.  Someone apparently thinks he's already won the election and can do anything he wants.

    Parent
    I'm just glad (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Fabian on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:20:21 PM EST
    that people still care enough about the issues to complain!

    I thought perhaps the Obamadulation had permanently neutralized the ability of his supporters to think critically.  Good to know the effects are temporary and reversible.

    Although watching the parade of diaries on DK was fascinating.  My favorite was the one that claimed that it was really a brilliant strategic move by Obama, a la the Harriet Meiers nomination.  (No, really, some rightwingers were touting it as an amazing display of political strategy.)

    Parent

    Hey, we're not even at intermission yet ... (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:36:05 PM EST
    Did my due, played my part. I'm just going to support my usual issues, pitch in where it feels right and watch the show.

    Whatever happens next isn't HRC's nor her supporters' fault, or core Dems' fault.

    It's time the fauxgressives and Club O took responsibility for what they wrought and it looks like they're finally starting to reap what they sowed.

    Gourmet blue popping corn. Real butter, the good stuff: Cultured Normandy.

    Parent

    This is where I'm headed as well (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:02:57 PM EST
    While the bitter knitter part of me does enjoy watching those who crusaded for their saint come to their realization, the none-BK part of me is just sad.  

    I am actually sad for the folks who were not caught up in the mania but supported Obama -- I have a friend who thought he's be less belligerent than Clinton dealing with Middle East issues and on foreign policy generally.  Uh oh.

    But I am getting over it, just not in the way the DNC and Obama would like.  So I'll pop my popcorn too, and watch the show.

    Parent

    I don't think HRC's part is done yet either :-) (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:10:03 PM EST
    There's so much that can happen between now and the convention -- even AT the DemCon -- and she does have a way of surprising people, even her worst critics.

    I also think we'll all be inventing new names for the Bradley Effect, since Club O is so fast on the trigger with charges of racism for anyone who disagrees with Obama or questions his public record, words and actions.

    (I'm still going by the nutcracker:lawn jockey ratio as a handy measure.)

    Parent

    No, Hillary is not "done" (1.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Veracitor on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 09:13:23 PM EST
    She has a lot of campaigning and fundraising to do for Obama.

    Parent
    Same here :-) (none / 0) (#74)
    by bridget on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:50:36 PM EST
    "I'm not a perfect candidate." (2.00 / 0) (#111)
    by Veracitor on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 09:16:58 PM EST
    That's what Obama says in every stump speech he makes.  Obamaniacs have always known that to true.  This particular worshipper is a pragmatist, who believes Obama can do more good from the Oval Office than the Senate Floor.

    Parent
    Ha! So what are you thinking? (none / 0) (#135)
    by Grace on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 04:16:57 AM EST
    Are you thinking he might show up for work everyday if he's in the Oval Office?  His attendance record in the Senate has been really poor, you know.  

    So, what do you think?  You think he'll show up one day a week?  

    You think he might show up two days a week?  

    I'm dying to hear what you think he's going to do...  Really....  

    I don't have much faith in him.  I think two days a week would be better than his Senate record.  Actually, one day a week might be better than his senate record....  I mean, how could he show up less than one day a week?  Wouldn't that be something like one day every two weeks?  Or one day every 10 days?  Maybe they measure these days by the hour and he would show up for 6 hours every 10 days!?  You think?  Is that possible?  

    Has Obama happened to mention how imperfect he is while campaigning?  

    Parent

    Too warm? (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:06:30 PM EST
    It's 58 degrees in my little Western Washington Republicanville today.  I'm wearing sweats and thinking of having homemade pizza for dinner just to warm the house up!

    Well, down here in FL it's (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:33:45 PM EST
    triple digits RealFeel all week long. The lowest will be 100 and the highest 104..so I am sticking to early morning expeditions and evening chores..too hot outside the rest of the time. I also make the hound stay inside. Mostly because we are having Tstorms and they tend to make her bolt for the horizon. It's much easier to keep her in than it is to scour the countryside looking for her. The rains have started, which means we get a deluge every day and on a pretty predictable schedule too. That makes planning easy, since no one wants to get caught on the road in one of our downpours if one can help it. It's hard to drive when you can see where you are going and there is so much water on the road that you have no traction. So, I am in summer mode, which entails evading the heat and the rains.

    The pasture is growing almost visibly, and the horses are loving it. Munch, munch, munch. The cattle egrets follow them around the pasture, eating the bugs they stir up. The neighbor's peacocks come to visit, and sometimes do a full display of male tail feathers for the pea hens, which I enjoy seeing. The display also fascinates the kittens, who hang out on the back porch and watch. They like to chase the peacock's tail when he is dragging it, but when he puts it up and shakes it to attract the pea hen, the kittens run for cover. Scary tail!! Then the peacock goes into his dance, which involves fluffing of various feather sets, spreading the tail and shaking it while it's spread, and a thrumming sound to top it all off. It's great to watch, even the kittens like to watch it from a safe distance..LOL The adult cats watch with a very blase attitude. When they were younger they discovered that pouncing on a peacock gets you tossed and pecked. So they just watch and let the younger generation have the fun. Heh.

    So I am spending my Sunday watching the critters inteact, watching the storm, and watching one of my favorite old shows, The Irish R.M., on tape. I am now going to go offline for a bit since the rain blots out my satellite link. Later!!

    Parent

    Rereading Smiley's "Horse Heaven" (none / 0) (#36)
    by suisser on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:53:37 PM EST
    so I can just hear those horses' dinner conversation in my head.
    Thanks!

    Parent
    You should have seen the colts' (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:13:10 PM EST
    faces the first time the peacock spread his tail. Their pasture is the peacocks preferred hangout, just over the fence from the back porch. So the peacock comes and goes into his dance. The colts have seen the peacocks before, but never in display. So my big brave boys(3 years old, 1000 lbs.) take one look at this show-off bird and turn tail and run. Fast. One goes and stands under a tree and watches the whole thing from a distance, but the dominant colt comes back and starts his own posturing. Colt vs. peacock for showing off..quite a sight. The colt rears up, paws and squeals..out of range of that big mean tail, of course..the peacock shakes his tail and takes a couple of steps closer to the colt who spins on a dime and runs down to the corner, then he turns, puts his tail straight up in the air and comes prancing back up. The peacock is intent on the pea hen and is ignoring the colt. The colt spooks at the pea hen who has jumped up onto the fence while ignoring the peacock, and then comes back, intent on defending his territory. He postures a bit more..the peacock realizes that the pea hen isn't interested and folds his tail and walks off. The colt thinks he has won, and promptly deposits a pile where the peacock was posturing. Then he trots down the fence, neck arched and tail high, and announces his triumph to all the other horses on the farm. They are not impressed enough to look up from their grazing. I go out and applaud him from the porch, telling him what a big brave boy he is. He appreciates that, prances around for a few steps, and then goes back to grazing. Life in the country, gotta love it!!

    Parent
    2 thumbs up (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 07:43:38 PM EST
    "The colt thinks he has won, and promptly deposits a pile where the peacock was posturing."

    Without question some of the best visuals for story telling around these parts in some time. Being from Florida also but much further south, the piles dropped here are always by posturing people.

    Parent

    Now I wish there was a (none / 0) (#47)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:22:27 PM EST
    video showing kittens with peacocks!  That sounds like such a fun thing to watch!

    Where we used to live, we had squirrels that loved to hang from the roof by their feet and tap on the kitchen windows.  This used to get my indoor cats going.  The squirrels used to taunt them every chance they had.    

    Parent

    Ha. My SE Iowa kin are visiting and it is (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:16:49 PM EST
    hotter here than there, an unexpected irony.

    Parent
    Just warm enough in Wisconsin, but (none / 0) (#24)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:44:36 PM EST
    after the record rainfalls, and stoopid neighbors who let standing water stand, that means . . . the state bird aka mosquitoes in record numbers.  

    So I finally was able to get out into the garden to deal with the bumper crop of weeds, too -- but, despite applications of insect spray to both the garden and me, I now can say:  I itch, therefore I am in Wisconsin.  And I'm allergic to insect bites.

    But at least I'm able to enjoy the garden out my window, at last -- and beautiful it is, with many flowers finally beginning to be able to bloom.  Those that weren't swamped and drowned, anyway.  It's always a cr*pshoot to put in annuals in late May here, with our incidence of June monsoons -- and never have we seen the monsoons of this year.

    Parent

    What are typical Mays like there? (none / 0) (#28)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:55:50 PM EST
    I was planning on taking the northern route when I move back to CA spring. I was hoping to travel before Memorial day. Watching the weather this past month has got me a bit freaked . . . I'll be doing the campervan routine with a dog and 5 cats. EEK!

    Parent
    Went from San Diego to NE Penna (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 07:46:47 PM EST
    a few years back. Left SD on April 8th noon and headed thru Las Vegas and stayed in Mesquite UT and won $1k on slots. That was good. Went up to Utah and then through Denver. Interesting mountains. The next day we heard that Denver was getting hit with a tremendous snow storm. We had to choose to go 80 through Nebraska and Iowa or 70 through Kansas and Missouri. Took 80. Saw one funnel cloud in Iowa. The next day we learned that Kan & Missouri had killer tornadoes. Arrived safely. I always felt the spirit of my Mom in my heart was making the right choices. I have taken the Southern route before. I like the Northern one better.

    Parent
    Afterr the ides of May (none / 0) (#82)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 06:57:21 PM EST
    the last half of the month can be beautiful and very warm.  Or not.  It's Wisconsin, it's unpredictable.  This year, it was not great, with such a late spring.  That could mean good things next year, if we're back to the more common mid- and late May -- when, for example, I used to work commencements at a college, and mid-May often meant sunny and in the 70s or even 80s.:-)

    That's southern Wisconsin, though, which is closer to Chicago weather.  Northern Wisconsin can be more like Canadian weather, so there still can be snow in early May (or even late May in very weird years)!

    So -- where in Wisconsin are you planning on trekking with the menagerie?

    Parent

    are you going to travel with them in cages (none / 0) (#90)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:04:53 PM EST
    or loose in a confined area? do you need to give any thing to keep them calm? i have 3 kitties and have wondered about that. i'll never forget the attempt to leave before rita. it was awul, stuck in traffic with three kitties in the back crying. i imagine that it will be fun and frustrating at the same time.

    Parent
    I'm looking forward to Hillary's re-emergence (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by ajain on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:16:20 PM EST
    Life is not as fun or entertaining without her in the news. Love her or hate her, she is the most exciting and drama inducing public figure simply because she creates such a variety of intense emotions in people.

    According to this link, Hillary Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:06:56 PM EST
    attended Tim Russert memorial.  Didn't make the press.  But same link describes her relationship with a recent Bronx H.S. grad and her attendance at the girl's graduation ceremony:

    Hillary Clinton

    Parent

    Obama will change history (and hers if you help) (5.00 / 11) (#19)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:22:04 PM EST
    I dead-threaded this addition earlier to the overnight, and thought I'd collect contributions to the Official Barack Obama Guide to Historical (and Hysterical) Women from the local brainiacs who don't like knitting.

    Here's Gov. Sibelius's posted comment there condescending to HRC supporters and notebook bearing Sweeties covering the campaign.

    "There are still constituencies who are going to need a little time to embrace Sen. Obama's candidacy," she told reporters after the event, noting women in particular.

    emoted me to add:

    ... and in unison the women reporters ran out of the briefing to deliver this intel to the Giant Chick Brain that women everywhere use to find direction.

    Unable to get my ass out of the deck lounger and careen up the seven steps of grief as directed, I b!tchily wondered what history would look like if Obama and his campaign's POV of women always held sway, so I added the following to the dead thread.

    Local smartypants, please revise or append so it can be transmitted to the Giant Chick Brain:

    Apparently Obama's rise to power is inevitable and the victors write (and revise) history.

    As a practical effort more suitable than Rahm's suggestion of knitting we should helpfully tweak that emotively driven Ladies' Section of HIStory that honors Obama's own and Club Obama's world view of women.

    (1) Out of sheer spite, Anne Frank began keeping a creepy diary on the Nazis ...

    (2) Her old boyfriend watched in horror as she calmly disjointed a rabbit and, staring out from the screen with steady eyes, put the creature in a stewing pot and added herbs and garlic. It was then the man suddenly knew that his family would never be safe from the wrath of Julia Child ...

    (3) "No I will NOT 'take a moment to get over it,'" Joan of Arc hissed and spat in display of feminine pique as she marshalled her armies and went to liberate Orléans from British occupation.

    (4) With a heavy heart and in sad realization, Pierre Curie knew that his man-hating wife's hobby of puttering in the lab, her Nobel prize and leadership of the university were just cover for Dr. Marie Curie's evil scheme. That typical problematic old b!tch was looking for a way to give men ass cancer.

    Ah, thank you, Ellie -- (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:47:13 PM EST
    I always enjoy your way with words, but even more your thoughts when you're on a roll like this.  I had a similar reaction here yesterday to Sibelius' quote, but my words were paltry in comparison to yours.

    This quote does show, yet again, how disastrous it would be for Obama to pick Sibelius as VP.

    Parent

    Thanks for the belly laugh! (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by sarahfdavis on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:21:08 PM EST
    I just walked out back to the garden and read your stuff outloud to my girlfriend. I'm hoping our obama worshiping neighbors overheard! thanks!!

    Parent
    THis is awesome!! (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:53:37 PM EST
    Great moments of "getting over it" in history.

    Karl Marx writes, "A second look at Capitalism."

    Samual Adams addressed the Sons of Liberty, "YOu know, maybe if the tea is taxed we won't drink so much of it."

    Parent

    Is that why Samuel Adams went to brewing (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:56:49 PM EST
    beer?  :)

    Parent
    I don't know (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:01:29 PM EST
    Beale implores America to run to their windows, open their windows, and shout "I just a need a moment to get used to this, I'll be fine in a moment."

    Parent
    And (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:02:58 PM EST
    that darned Susan B. (Anthony) really should learn her place. Women. DON'T. VOTE.  Get over it!

    Parent
    This could be done all day (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:09:14 PM EST
    From wikipedia

    On January 1, 1868, Anthony first published a weekly journal entitled The Revolution. Published in New York City, its motto was: "The true republic -- men, their rights and nothing more; women, their right to take whatever time they need to get used it."


    Parent
    Yes, please append -- I'll compile it and post ... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:11:57 PM EST
    ... as a diary or make available as a txt file to share with others.

    Parent
    Tom Petty's First Version (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:22:34 PM EST
    "I'll take a moment.
    I'll get over it
    If you just give me the time I need,
    I'll get over it.

    I'll get over it."

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Gov. Sibelius.

    Parent

    Not nearly as clever as you all (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:31:53 PM EST
    but here are mine:

    "I don't know, I'll have to check with my pastor", says Margaret Sanger, before publishing What Every Girl Should Know.

    "John!  That was a typo.  I meant forget the ladies."  -- Abigail Adams.

    Parent

    LOL -- the AbiAdams one reminds me of a line that (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:50:58 PM EST
    ... always cracks me up when someone uses it. I think it's Steve Martin but I don't know the source:

    "Remember, always -- I mean, never ... "

    Parent

    Ah, Ellie! I had you in mind,too (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by bridget on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:49:00 PM EST
    when I said in another post that TL bloggers would  be much better writers than the silly M. Dowd.

    You should have your own column in the publication of your choice.

    I am fan ;-)

    Parent

    Blogs have way better snark / analysis (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 05:37:52 PM EST
    .. and are more fun to read and "donate" to (and the fishwrap's not my medium.)

    But thanks for the props!

    Parent

    I tried to think of others to add to yours (none / 0) (#136)
    by Grace on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 04:57:31 AM EST
    but yours are far too good.  <applause>

    It would take me a week to come up with a handful to add to that.  I particularly like #1 which is extremely clever, witty and condensed.  LOL!  

    Do you have a blog or a something?  I'd love to come play!!  Snarking is right up my alley!  

    Parent

    Here is Lynn Sweet's "back story" (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:32:30 PM EST
    re Michelle Obama's speaking to that conference last week:

    Sweet

    Apparently the Obama campaign asked if Michelle Obama could participate.

    And no one in that group (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:53:01 PM EST
    or in the media noted that no employer is more an anathema to the National Partnernship of Women and Families than Wal-Mart . . . from which Ms. Obama benefited by a related boardship, and from which she resigned too late.

    So the NPWF joins Emily's List now on my list of groups that might be edging too close to NARAL's abdication.  So many groups that used to get my money are now getting much more scrutiny from me, after the Obama campaign did in more than the Dem party.  I measure them all against their own stated principles and find that many could use a review of their own mission statements.

    Parent

    God this is getting boring (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:50:45 PM EST
    Walmart is right in the running for No 1 employer in NY state.

    You think any of the state Senators might be at all accountable for that? Or, does broaching that topic just prove how full of hate and all things hateful I am?

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:52:34 PM EST
    NY Walmarts HELP women and children. Everybody knows that.

    Parent
    Clinton returned their (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:08:22 PM EST
    campaign donations a couple years ago.

    They have been kept out of NYC so far. We don't need no stinkin' Walmarts  ;)

    Parent

    It would be great (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:11:44 PM EST
    if NYC was NY state.

    Parent
    Heh, not so much. (none / 0) (#67)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:19:18 PM EST
    Having just taken a trek (none / 0) (#81)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 06:48:26 PM EST
    through many small towns in my state, we thought it striking to see the differences between towns with Wal-Marts vs. towns without them.  The towns without still had thriving downtown squares of lots of little stores with skilled salespeople, something we have forsaken in our city full of Wal-Marts.

    Btw, I recall a trek through upstate, small-town New York a couple of years ago, in the historic burned-over district, when we saw a Wal-Mart every five miles, I swear.  And, of course, the small towns' central retail areas were dying or already dead.  So sad.  (But for the historic sites in the area, I can hardly wait to return -- as it was February then, not the best time to enjoy upstate New York.:-)

    Parent

    Maybe it is just me (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by standingup on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:27:09 PM EST
    but I can't think of anyone who could have less sway with women supporters of Clinton than Michelle Obama. Some of Michelle's own remarks and then her own silence on the issue of sexism during the primaries left me with a very negative impression of her. She is not a woman I would look upon with respect as the first lady.

    Parent
    the comments at the end of the story (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:09:07 PM EST
    about michelle's appearance would indicate the readers weren't that impressed with michelle's appearance or the story.

    Parent
    So is obama using his small donor's hard- (none / 0) (#49)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:30:22 PM EST
    earned money to charter jets for m?

    Parent
    I guess it's all part of her (5.00 / 0) (#60)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:06:12 PM EST
    re-packaging (ha!)(ugh!)

    Parent
    It does not seem to be working (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:39:46 PM EST
    At least not yet, from Rasmussen's Daily Tracking for today:

    Michelle Obama is now viewed favorably by forty-five percent (45%) of voters and unfavorably by 42%. For Cindy McCain, the numbers are 47% favorable and 27% unfavorable (see crosstabs). For both women, those numbers are down slightly from the earlier tracking results.
    (emphasis mine).

    I was surprised MO's v. unfavorables were so high compared to CM's.

    Parent

    I'm curious about Obama's support and how well (5.00 / 6) (#22)
    by kempis on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:38:21 PM EST
    it will hold up as this general election continues.

    I was among the first on his bandwagon--back when there was lots of room and everyone thought Hillary was the inevitable nominee. My allegiance began to shift during the very first debate, when Hillary kicked everyone's butt. With every debate, I read more of her policy positions. I'd go to Obama's site to read his and there really was not much there. This bothered me. Over time his "issues" section grew, much of it seemingly cribbed from Hillary's with a few differences sprinkled in for minor contrast. Clearly, the difference between the two candidates seemed to me to be style rather than substance. Obama won points for style. Hillary won hands down on substance. I like substance in a president, so by the fall I was in Hillary's camp. My last donation to Obama was one week before the Donnie McClurkin mess in October.

    Having fallen off the bandwagon myself when I realized that Obama was not the candidate I thought he was, I started worrying about this back in January/February: what if he's the nominee but more people have the sort of WTF moments I had--moments that caused me to look back and reconsider all the goodwill I had had toward his campaign previously?

    In particular, how do progressives deal with the fact that Obama is far less committed to progressive principles and more to winning?

    His support of Hoyer's and Pelosi's FISA capitulation seemed to be a big bump that caused more than a few progressives to fall off the bandwagon and hit the ground, hard. I truly sympathize. And now many are off the Obamite bandwagon but in the same boat with a lot of Hillary supporters, the U.S.S What the Hell Else Can We Do Now?, grimly rowing atop their tepid support because they cannot choose to vote for or enable McCain--or ANY Republican presidential candidate.

    In the past couple of days, former fervent Obama supporters have sounded a lot like some Hillary supporters: I'll vote for him, but that's it. I'm not busting my butt nor my piggy bank for him. He is not who I thought he was. He is not interested in fighting for the principles I thought he held.

    It's an exasperating place, and I feel for them.

    And for more evidence of how he is not a progressive despite their fondest hopes, take a look at this.

    It's all about building a winning machine, even if it means running over progressives to do it. He's "trainin' up" the party. Want his support? Support him. Want to get smacked down? Don't support him. The principles you advocate are meaningless. Ideas and policy goals are meaningless. All that matters is your support of him.

    As more and more people realize this, I wonder how  well his support will hold up in November....

    Again, I will vote for him (but I understand why others will not), but I have never been so dispirited about my (former) party's nominee. I do not know what this man stands for other than winning. No one does. This is bothersome.

    I completely disengaged (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:19:24 PM EST
    for awhile and I was trying to understand it yesterday.  Maybe I still am disengaged. Yes, I supported Hillary and was disappointed she lost, but I was ready to move one.  Then I realized, Obama hasn't said or done anything to excite me.  I am utterly disappointed and even bored with candidacy.  I will vote for him because of the Supreme Court, but I have never been so engaged in something, then all of a sudden - nothing.  I feel nothing for his candidacy or what it might do for America.  I am still waiting for him to do one daring, amazing thing.

    Parent
    I am sure he thinks campaigning with (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:30:24 PM EST
    Hillary this next week is very daring, considering he is going to completely diss her for the VP spot... :)  I feel your pain though about the disengagement.

    Parent
    I know it is wrong to say so (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by bridget on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 05:00:13 PM EST
    but I don't want so see Hillary campaign for Obama, appear with him together
    just can't do it - just don't want to witness it

    btw. my TV ist still off and right now TL tells me all I need to know and more

    and while we are speaking about disengagement - that applies to me too. First time that happened to me btw. After all these years. It is a very new and painful experience.

    Parent

    Yankees/Mets doubleheader on friday (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 05:46:05 PM EST
    starting at 2PM and then games on Sat and Sun also. The rest of the time I'll be doing the CSA/cooking thing and prob have the Food Network on for inspiration. Lots of fun ways to disengage these days, lol!~

    Parent
    It isn't wrong to say...it is how you feel and (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 07:20:34 PM EST
    I bet if we were to take a poll, there would be many others who would tell you they feel the same way...myself included.  She is a great woman; I wouldn't do it.

    Parent
    He is not dissing her (1.50 / 2) (#103)
    by MissBrainerd on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:39:35 PM EST
    as you call it. She is a liability with independents and that is a key group for this year.

    Wanting the DEMS to win the White House so we can clean up Bush's mess is what is important. People who go into politics have to be thick-skinned.

    I am very excited and interested to see what they do together, you never know, this may be a way to test the waters for VP.

    Parent

    Same as it always was... (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by santarita on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 02:31:41 PM EST
    Sen. Obama and his advisors are playing to the perceived center of the political spectrum.  He will give lip service to issues important to the "fringes" like the FISA legislation and will do just enough to look like he is doing something but will not do anything that will give the Repubs a line of attack.    He will govern to the center as well.  He will always give the appearance of doing something but will always have some ready excuses for why he couldn't do more.

    His more honest supporters will come to realize that they fell for a very effective marketing campaign.  And hopefully the first time voters who fell for the marketing will come to realize that when you support someone with a scant record, that you really are throwing darts while blindfolded.

    Parent

    I wish they WERE talking to the center (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 07:52:52 PM EST
    Obama and the fauxgressives were never on the left. They're tacking hard right for the evangelical vote apparently, women have been catapulted back to the fifties.

    I just scanned the areas here that I missed earlier in the afternoon. Did you read that crap upstream about Obama sending his wife to to "heal" Clinton supporters? WTF is that about?

    He can't speak to HRC's supporters or hear their concerns as voters but deploys Michelle to "heal" things?

    Women must be the election version of "that" aisle he never walks imself, just like la-di-dah we don't bother going down the anti-war aisle or the economy aisle with the hard to read stuff.

    What an patronizing @ss. HRC's supporters are a diverse mix, women AND men, all ages, all colors, etc. but Obama and his tone deaf campaign are such dinosaurs that wouldn't occur to them.

    Parent

    Yeah, but he sent her in a charter jet and (5.00 / 5) (#91)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:05:38 PM EST
    they should be touting that to the disaffected and poor Americans....maybe that will heal them too.  Here's the deal, obama is not about taking responsibility for a damn thing, or really working at something to make it right.  He NEVER disappoints us, as we know he will always take the easy way out....and he does.

    Parent
    Heal (none / 0) (#145)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 02:03:46 PM EST
    yeah they were definatly talking about Benny Hinn laying-on-of-hands, or that's the impression you obviously want everyone to have. Not that anyone belonging to such an enlightened, diversity-embracing, universally appealing to women (whether they know it or not) quarter would ever deem to being disengenuous due to sour grapes moving into their rancid phase and beginning to distort ones thinking.

    Parent
    No marketing campaign (none / 0) (#61)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:06:18 PM EST
    could beat that one that got a goodly portion of Americans to believe I-raq was ready to attack at any moment at the cost of hundreds of thousands dead and maimed and a few hundred billion down the military-industrial rabbit hole.

    There's spin and then there's toxic, death-dealing spin.

    Parent

    I was Undecided last year. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:51:59 PM EST
    I thought the Democrats had a lot of good candidates so I wanted to know more about all of them before I decided who I would vote for.  I thought Obama was a really good candidate.  

    As time went on and the field got smaller, I started doing research.  Like you, I went to the website and read.  I also looked at his biography and his voting record.  I came away from that experience firmly committed to Hillary.  

    Now that Hillary is out of it and I've had a chance to watch Obama twist in the wind on numerous issues, I've kind of decided that I'll vote for McCain.  I know McCain doesn't stand for a lot of things I would like to have in government, but I do feel that he's the most principled of the two candidates (Obama and McCain).  I'm also fairly conservative fiscally and I know McCain is too.  (I don't know what Obama is, really.  He has plans to do everything using money from "ending the war in Iraq" which he doesn't plan to end...  So where's he gonna get the money?)

    Anyway, this isn't a pretty election season.  Sometimes McCain says things that make me look at Obama again -- but then Obama says something else and I think "Change:  This year I'll vote Republican for the very first time.  Now that is Change!"  

    Parent

    Since when is McCain fiscally conservative? (none / 0) (#75)
    by jtaylorr on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:53:41 PM EST
    Other than opposing earmarks (which make up less than 1% of GDP) when has McCain shown fiscal conservatism? If you look at his voting record, he has voted across the board AGAINST limits on discretionary spending. He wants to extend the Bush tax cut and then some, cut the corporate-income-tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent, and abolish the Alternative Minimum Tax. The Tax Policy Center estimates that over 10 years, McCain's tax proposals will national debt by $4.5 trillion (Obama's would add $3.3 trillion)
    I don't see how you can sit there and say McCain is more fiscally conservative than Obama, when McCain's policies on taxes alone would add 1.2 trillion more dollars to the national debt.


    Parent
    I could have sworn I heard (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 05:49:32 PM EST
    yesterday or this morning that Obama is now making noises about Corp tax cuts.

    Honestly, I know they all talk a bit out of both sides of their mouth, but some of Obama's double talk isn't working for me these past couple weeks.

    Parent

    McCain has been in (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 06:05:53 PM EST
    elected office since 1982 so he has a much longer record to look at than Obama has.  He's been in office for 26 years.    

    From the Cato Institute:  McCain, the good, the bad and the ugly

    While Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity sometimes portray McCain as a virtual clone of Ted Kennedy, the fact is that he is a true fiscal conservative--certainly more of a fiscal conservative than, say, Mitt Romney.


    Parent
    You completely ignored the evidence I presented (1.00 / 1) (#89)
    by jtaylorr on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:04:33 PM EST
    A true fiscal conservative would never add $4.5 trillion to the national debt. In fact, a true fiscal conservative would advocate raising taxes at a time when we are in such debt.
    The fact is, McCain's record before 2001 is irrelevant. The McCain who ran for the Republican nomination in 2000 is not the same McCain we have today. You'd think we were on RedState judging from some of these comments.


    Parent
    debate all you will but please refrain (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:13:31 PM EST
    from the "red state remarks". no one has addressed you in a rude manner on this thread that i have seen.

    Parent
    OK (1.00 / 2) (#116)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 09:26:51 PM EST
    Stop bashing the Democratic nominee as if you are from red state and I am sure that the references will cease.

    Parent
    And you (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Grace on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 05:50:51 AM EST
    ignored the evidence I presented.  

    The Cato Institute is libertarian, not Republican, so when they talk fiscal conservative, they mean FISCAL CONSERVATIVE.  

    There is no reason to consider McCain's record pre-2001 irrelevant except for that you believe it should be irrelevant -- and who are you?  The McCain who ran in 2000 is the exact same guy who is running today.  You can check his DNA and find that out.  

    I don't know who "RedState" is so is that supposed to be some sort of an insult?  If it is, okay.  Your Mama looks like a Panda Bear.  Are we even?  

    Parent

    Agree (1.33 / 3) (#100)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:33:13 PM EST
    You'd think we were on RedState judging from some of these comments.

    In the 109th congress McCain was the second most right wing member. Now he is the eighth most right wing.  He had to move left to be in the race. But nonetheless he sure has become popular at TL.

    Parent

    Obama (4.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 07:18:07 PM EST
    certainly can't seem to manage money. There are a few instances where McCain voted against waste but probably not many. Obama is advocating spending tons of money and hasn't even mentioned balancing the budget has he? IIRC, he talks about getting out of Iraq so that he can spend that money elsewhere. However, in the end, that's really a moot point because he isn't going to get us out of Iraq.

    Parent
    Not only that (none / 0) (#139)
    by Grace on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 05:55:53 AM EST
    but all the money we are spending in Iraq is being borrowed from the Chinese -- so there is no savings if the war ends.  We only borrow less.  

    We are still in the hole.  

    You can't spend negative numbers.  

    Parent

    you can vote however you want (none / 0) (#127)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:54:48 PM EST
    but you will not use this site as an organizing ground for him or to encourage others to vote for him.

    This is a Democratic site and it now supports Obama. Gratuitious insults to Obama will be deleted.

    You can  disagree with Obama's policy positions, his actions, statements, campaign strategy or related matters. You can not spread gossip about him here, or attack him or his wife because you don't personally care for him.

    Commenters supporting McCain will be limited in the number of posts they can put on the site in a single day. Chattering or shilling for him will not be allowed.

    Parent

    Yikes! (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Grace on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 06:44:47 AM EST
    I have a hard time following these threads but I think you were talking to me!  

    I am not organizing for McCain or encouraging others to vote for him.  I live in totally "blue" country and the only way I can yell out to the DNC is by voting for McCain.  To not vote at all won't say a darn thing here in California.  And, ever since I was 18 and given the right to drink hard liquor, I've also thought that I needed to vote -- so I always vote.  

    I'm a Democrat.  I voted for Hillary.  I've voted for every Democrat for President since 1975.  That was when I turned 18 and registered to vote.  I'd love to vote for Obama but I am so turned off at this point in time, I don't think I can.  

    I know this is your website, but do you think posters should be freely allowed to post libelous material against John McCain, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, or any other candidate?  If other posters dispute that information with links and facts, doesn't that make your blog more valuable?  

    If other posters post factual material, do you consider that shilling?  

    I don't.

    I'm not into namecalling, gossip or attacking so I'm not sure why you are directing your post towards me.  If you read my original post, all I said was that I considered everyone before I made a decision and I finally picked McCain because I thought he was a fiscal conservative.

    Anyway, I hope you will continue to allow me to post here but if I have to post Obama-love all the time, I'll have to go somewhere else because I can't lie to myself.  I have principles.  I really loved Hillary, but Obama?  Eh, not so much.      

    Parent

    wasn't directed to you (none / 0) (#144)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:49:24 PM EST
    sorry...I deleted some comments and threw off the threading.

    Parent
    Carlyle Group (Bush Co.), Lehman Bros., (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Aqua Blue on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:11:07 PM EST
    United Health, Ariel Capital, Merri Lynch, Citigroup and numerous corporate employees are among the many bundlers.  They will keep Obama in Capital as they want influence .

    I was shocked when reading the bundler list....  especially the Carlyle Group (trying to take over the world).

    United Health is known for their denials to deserving medical requests.

    So much for change and hope.

    Parent

    And Hillary took huge donations (3.00 / 1) (#105)
    by MissBrainerd on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:42:12 PM EST
    from Big pharma and the health care industry.

    Until we ammend the constitution to limit campaigns and money (and it takes an ammedment because the court says money is free speech) then we have to accept that money needs to come from SOMEWHERE, 100;s of millions of dollars worth. It is criminal that it costs so much to run.

    Change can only come with regulation and that takes a change to the constitution. And I favor that!

    Parent

    Miss Brainard (none / 0) (#129)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:56:25 PM EST
    has become a chatterer whose sole purpose is to disagree with those who don't support Obama by posting negative drive-by shots at Hillary.

    Brainard is limited to six comments in a 24 hour period.

    Parent

    I disagree. Which I know is pointless! (none / 0) (#141)
    by MissBrainerd on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 08:01:24 AM EST
    I have one comment that discussed Hillary's donations from the health care industry. Then all I said was that Hillary's polling shows high negatives if she ran with Obama as VP. You can check the polling, it is true. She hurts him with independents, so I argued that he is not dissing Hillary, just being practical about winning.

    Honestly, these are both facts, the donations and the polling, not personal smears or anything. So I now know that Facts about a subject that reflect badly on Hillary are not allowed.

    And I also said I was very excited and interested to see what Friday brings. When they campaign together maybe the polling will change about Hillary for VP.

    Parent

    The point is that I want a candidate (none / 0) (#142)
    by Aqua Blue on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 08:21:25 AM EST
    whose actions match his words.

    I am astounded that Obama hs dissed public funding.   Breaking his primary oratory does not sit well wih me.

    Parent

    McCain cannot be trusted (none / 0) (#143)
    by MissBrainerd on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 08:25:30 AM EST
    to reign in the 527 and other GOP money, if fact McCain said he can't and won't even try.

    So, Obama only ever said that he would negotiate with McCain so they both do public financing. He cannot be trusted.

    Obama feels that unless this is an even playing field, he can't give himself a handicap. DEMS are counting on him to win so he does have a responsibility beyond purity.

    Parent

    I don't think I can vote for him. (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Grace on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 05:39:44 AM EST
    Let me put it this way:  I've looked at him and I've looked at McCain and I prefer McCain simply because I think McCain is more ready for the job.  

    Obama could win me back because I am a Democrat (and McCain obviously isn't) but he's not doing anything towards that end.  

    I really wanted someone with experience, and he doesn't have any.  

    Since he has no experience, I'd be satisfied with someone who was a real activist for an issue -- but he's never been that either.  

    So.....  

    His voting record is lacking.  His platform appears to be "I'm not John McCain."  Almost everything he says is subject to meaning the exact opposite if you give him enough time (like "I'll pull all the troops out of Iraq.")

    I'm so unimpressed.  

    Can't we get Hillary back?  

    I fear the unknown and that's why I can't vote for Obama.  

    Parent

    this is interesting, re: HRC and FISA (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by NJDem on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:39:52 PM EST
    link

    Sorry, it's from TPM, but it's even more interesting that the post is from there.

    I heard she's back in the Senate tomorrow (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:51:33 PM EST
    can't remember what program, but was happy to hear it. I hope nothing has changed over the weekend re: your link. I'll call and email again just to be safe, lol!~

    Parent
    Any of you read Scottie McC's book? (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by hitchhiker on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:03:46 PM EST
    It's not the sort of thing I could resist . . . here's my take:

    1. He should wait about 15 years and give it another shot.  I say this because he seems to believe that he's lost his bias and is now on the side of truth and integrity . . . he surely has burst out of the bubble, and yet every other paragraph demonstrates how deeply enmeshed he remains.

    2. He's a self-absorbed, privileged, oblivious person.  Far too many pages are devoted to how much pain he suffered at the old podium once it became public knowledge that his co-workers had lied to his face and sent him out to repeat those lies.  Yes, that was disgusting behavior from Rove and Libby, but jeebus, mayo, and jofus!  Clue in, Scott.  Those of us struggling to hang on to our health and our homes in the face of your boss's stupid arrogance have news about what constitutes personal anguish.  Hint: looking like a dupe on the t.v. does not qualify.

    3.  Yes, the Bush administration policies really always were driven by the Rove estimation of what the politics du jour required.  In my family, this has meant that paralysis due to the spinal cord injury my husband suffered in March of 2001 will last 8 years longer than it needed to . . . because Rove decreed that forbidding the NIH to use embryonic stem cells in cure research  was good politics.  Scott seems not to understand that such a decision made for such a reason might, in some enlightened time, make certain readers angry.  Like me.

    All that said, I guess I think it's worth the time, just for the bizarre and juicy look at how those people saw themselves--and how Scott continues to see himself, as a wronged man who tried to do only good.  

    I was a little surprised- maybe I (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by kenosharick on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:45:37 PM EST
    should not be - at how tough the Sunday shows were on Obama. If I were running the repub camaign, I would have commercial up QUICK about all of Obama's recent flip-flops (from the view of some) on issues. Define him early in the minds of voters. That happened to Kerry and he could never convince millions of how unfair that was.

    Telling moment on 'This Week' (5.00 / 5) (#58)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:00:36 PM EST
    Either Cokie Roberts or Matthew Dowd remarked that they hear voters say they have doubts about Obama because 'they don't know him'.   Donna Brazile says don't worry, the ad campaign will fix that.

    Used to be that politicans actually made a name for themselves before they ran for president.  That was old style politics I guess.

    Parent

    I wouldn't put any stock in Donna (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:07:26 PM EST
    Brazile's statements. She said on CNN she thought his "seal" was a great idea!!

    Parent
    I think she does speak what they are thinking (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:23:02 PM EST
    Someone must have thought that seal was a good idea, or it would never have been made.

    Parent
    Donna Brazile (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:43:35 PM EST
    is the mouthpiece of the Obama campaign when it comes to the lines they're thinking along.  Nothing factual she says can be trusted, but as a barometer of the campaign it's a different matter.

    I also think they use her as the test marketer for various memes.  (although really, I hate that word for some reason).  She's on cnn all the time throwing out all sorts of lines to see what sticks.

    The word 'mouthpiece' always makes me think of the Mouthpiece of Sauron.  The guy who'd served evil for so long he'd forgotten his own name.

    Parent

    maybe it was her idea? the seal i mean. (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:15:17 PM EST
    It was startling wasn't it? Do you think from (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:05:09 PM EST
    here on out, they might actually do their jobs?
    Reneging on the campaign finance might do obama more harm than he knows.

    Parent
    That last one was great (5.00 / 0) (#68)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:21:08 PM EST
    thanks for sharing.

    Wow!! I am not watching news (5.00 / 0) (#106)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 08:42:39 PM EST
    programs much anymore and since joining TL I haven't read my paper as much, but I have heard absolutely nothing about this other than what I knew from reading here. What can we do? Why haven't news organizations even remotely talked about this story, not even Fox news. If they did, it didn't last long. I am deeply disturbed by this and inquire about suggestions of what can be done, whether this story is true or it isn't.

    george carlin has passed away. (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:48:00 AM EST
    he was controversial but i enjoyed him very much. sorry to see you leave the stage, george.

    I'm looking forward..... (1.50 / 2) (#118)
    by Veracitor on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 09:32:59 PM EST
    ....to Obama being a great President, and Michelle one of the best First Ladies - and sore losers will continue trying to find fault and griping for the next decade.  

    I don't know veracitor, the sore winners on (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 09:47:19 PM EST
    obama's side look like the real losers.  

    Parent
    Hilarious (1.00 / 0) (#115)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 09:25:19 PM EST
    Considering that Hillary is one of his supporters, or followers as you seem to prefer.

    Hillary is for the party because she (none / 0) (#128)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:55:09 PM EST
    must be. We all "play" politics in life. Some play better than others, some know how to play really well, and some don't really ever learn. SHE is the leader here.

    Parent
    I'll be the bearer of good news again (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:45:43 PM EST
    Brokaw is to host Meet the Press through the election. This was my best case scenario prediction, and I'm delighted that NBC News agrees with me (and that Brokaw was willing to take the job).

    Helen Thomas! (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Fabian on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:49:19 PM EST
    For so many reasons....

    But it's about as realistic as President Al Gore.  

    Parent

    LOL--now THAT would be worth tuning in for (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by kempis on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:51:34 PM EST
    Great Idea (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:53:27 PM EST
    She would boost ratings big time. Too bad the execs are to dim to understand that.

    Parent
    Helen Thomas was to (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:15:47 PM EST
    be at a dinner here recently and I signed up when I heard she was on the program.  However, unfortunately, that week we learned she had been hospitalized and was quite ill.  

    Parent
    I really hope she is OK (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:38:10 PM EST
    She has been one of the only true journalists looking out for democracy and speaking truth to power.  Her illness will be ignored and heaven forbid, when she is gone, does anyone think she will get even a tenth of the adoration, 'he walked on water" bs given Russert, who despite probably being  a great dad, son, husband, was not, imo, a good or fair journalist.

    Just had to vent....

    Parent

    Eh (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:52:42 PM EST
    Honestly, I think that would be a fairly unpleasant show to watch. I don't want the moderator to be explicitly partisan.

    Parent
    Helen partisan? (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by Fabian on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:01:44 PM EST
    I've always thought of her as unwilling to accept bullsh!t and deliberate obfuscation especially when it comes from our government.

    Parent
    How many "moderators" (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:03:12 PM EST
    on the tee-vee aren't explicitly partisan?  AND BTW, I think Helen Thomas would LOVE the job.  She's extremely gutsy and would be entertaining as heck.

    Parent
    I think many guests would be taken aback (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:16:33 PM EST
    by actual hard questions that would then be followed up on....no free rides by Helen Thomas, if she were the MTP moderator.

    Parent
    Why? (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:54:41 PM EST
    Covert partisanship is more appealing to you?

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    It's a complicated question, of course. I accept the proposition that there is no such thing as a non-partisan host. Anyway, I'm sure Helen wouldn't want the job.

    Parent
    Really? (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    I think she would have a ball, but only on her terms. That is why they would never consider hiring her, she is not a pimp.

    Parent
    Patti Smith! (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:43:25 PM EST
    Patti...? Maybe she'd be right fo MTP after... (none / 0) (#65)
    by EL seattle on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:11:01 PM EST
    they have the sense to use "Babelogue"/"Rock and Roll __" as a song on "Don't Forget the Lyrics" over on Fox TV.

    Parent
    It will be interesting to see how an older... (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by EL seattle on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 03:33:52 PM EST
    moderator treats the "McCain is too old old old!" meme.  McCain is older than Brokaw, but Brokaw might not see that as the sort of instant disqualifier that a younger moderator might.

    Parent
    I'm over loosing the most knowledgeable democrats (none / 0) (#70)
    by WillBFair on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 04:27:23 PM EST
    of our time. I'm happy for African Americans, and because by the last poll I saw Obama is trampling on McCain. But I think we just have to wait and see who the media will support. They've always gotten their way, since they brought Gore down with their false accusations, and anyone else with a smidge of intelligence. I think their support for Obama may have been strategic, to get the Clintons out of the way. They're in damage control mode now. But public opinion has swung so far with us, they might not be able, and may not even try, to keep him out of office.
    http://a-civilife.blogspot.com

    What Fun (none / 0) (#117)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 09:31:26 PM EST
    The neocons are fighting over when will BushCo attack Iran or  order Israel to attack Iran.

    Bolton says after the election and Kristol says if it looks like Obama will win. Pipes leaning toward Kristol.

    Good News (none / 0) (#120)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 10:01:32 PM EST
    Obama's current lead also reflects the large party-identification advantage the Democrats now enjoy--55 percent of all voters call themselves Democrats or say they lean toward the party while just 36 percent call themselves Republicans or lean that way. Even as McCain seeks to gain voters by distancing himself from the unpopular Bush and emphasizing his maverick image, he is suffering from the GOP's poor reputation among many voters.

    via digby

    Sunday talking heads discussed that (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 10:11:49 PM EST
    McCain's best bet is to keep distancing himself from bush and he will see support start to rise.

    Parent
    Good Luck (1.00 / 0) (#123)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 10:21:02 PM EST
    They are married in the public eye, the wedding ring is spelled GOP.

    Parent
    I'm sure McCain thanks you for your good (none / 0) (#126)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:48:00 PM EST
    wishes; and here he thought you don't like him.
    He has already started the distancing...let's see how it plays out because there are many out there that do not see McCain/Bush as buddies.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#130)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:01:07 AM EST
    Amazing (none / 0) (#121)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 10:11:16 PM EST
    I had not put this together when commenting about Harold Rhode lawyering up.

    But if you think about it, there are only two logical explanations for why--two and a half years after Larry Franklin pled guilty to sharing defense information--he is still "awaiting direction from DOJ to report to prison." Either someone high up in the Administration intervened to keep Franklin out of the pokey (OVP is named in the SSCI report, and we know Dick Cheney has prevented allies from going to prison before), or Franklin has been cooperating with investigators for two and a half years. (His docket just shows a "delayed reporting date."

    From emptywheel who has a great timeline for those interested.


    On Obama's Energy/Oil Plans (none / 0) (#133)
    by Grace on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 03:31:08 AM EST
    Obviously the overseas markets like what Obama is saying about oil and energy because Oil is up $2.69 already in the overseas markets. <sarcasm>  

    Obama's plan of trying to stop speculation is silly because of the ways the markets operate (they are international and the USA doesn't have very much say in them).  At most, he can require participants in the USA to put up a higher amount of dollars to play -- but the world is awash in dollars.  Everytime we (the USA) create more debt, we create more dollars, so there are gazillions of dollars to absorb into the system.  They were going into real estate but now they are going towards other things -- like commodities.      

    McCain's plan of announcing drilling, even if we won't get oil until much later, was smarter because the "peak oil" communities don't expect us to drill at all and they are part of the group driving the cost of oil up.  They figure all the oil is going to dry up eventually and oil will be worth a gazillion dollars a barrel.  

    On top of all of this, you have the currency fluctuations that we are facing.  US dollars have been dropping in value for quite a long time compared to other currencies.  

    The guys who own the oil in Saudi Arabia don't feel like they should be losing money just because our dollar is dropping in value (because they like to buy things in Europe) so they try to keep the value of their oil close to the value of what it can buy in Europe or London.  In other words, if 100 barrels of oil bought a Rolls Royce in 1980, they feel 100 barrels of oil should be able to buy a Rolls Royce now.

    One of the problems with all of this is that the Saudis agreed to price oil in US dollars.  That is why our dollar is frequently called the "petro dollar."  You need to have US dollars to buy oil from the Saudis.  This makes our currency the "reserve currency" for the world.  All was great with this until some smaller countries decided it would be smart to start new oil exchanges (like our commodity exchanges) and only accept payment in Euros.  

    Once they started accepting payment in Euros, you no longer needed US dollars to buy oil because you could buy oil in Euros.  The Saudis don't accept Euros but Iran does.  Iran is the second largest producer of oil in the world.  

    Anyway, this is all highly complicated but Obama is way off when he thinks he can control the markets.  He can't do a darn thing by playing with the markets except for minor things.  The most he can do is cause trouble for traders in the USA which might lead to lower profits for Pension plans, IRAs and others who might be heavily invested in foreign markets.  Yeah, he might also be able to close a loophole but I guarantee you that that has very little to do with the price of oil.  This isn't like Enron and the state of California.  The USA isn't the only force playing on the worldwide commodity markets.  I'm not even sure it's a major force anymore because London and Hong Kong seem to be able to do incredible amounts of damage in the hours our markets aren't even open.  

    On top of all that, what if Obama "jaw-boning" caused more countries (like the Saudis) to only want Euros for oil?  Our dollar would be absolutely worthless!!  No country would need to have those dollars to buy oil.  They would need Euros instead -- and all those dollars would come flooding back to the USA.  

    This is a very interesting (and potentially devasting) predicament.  

    And this is why I voted for Hillary!!!