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McCain Loves Dance Music

Given that his political positions are diametrically opposed to Hillary Clinton's, this is apparently how John McCain hopes to attract Hillary supporters:

Senator John McCain’s campaign is taking a more lighthearted approach to chatting up these women, at least in a new blog it debuted last night, The McCain Report.

The latest entry says, “Attention disaffected Hillary supporters, John McCain is a huge ABBA fan. Seriously.” Embedded is a YouTube video with the famous refrain:

If you change your mind,
I’m the first in line
Honey I’m still free
Take a chance on me

Gag me.

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    Well, (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Blue Jean on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:06:53 PM EST
    at least McCain didn't sing "Kiss him goodbye--Sha na na na, sha na na na, hey, hey, hey, goodbye!"

    Sorry (5.00 / 14) (#3)
    by Emma on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:09:35 PM EST
    I thought it was funny.

    I'll join you in the naughty corner, (5.00 / 9) (#18)
    by eleanora on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:24:36 PM EST
    because that's hilarious. A light touch is worth a lot when people are sore from being poked all the time. McCain's much more agile than I ever would have predicted, considering his age and temper problems. Do you hear the drums, Obama? :D

    Parent
    The corner is pretty crowded (5.00 / 10) (#81)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:16:26 PM EST
    Because I thought it was hysterical.  I love it when people have a sense of humor about themselves.

    Parent
    Humor (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by vml68 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:38:16 PM EST
    I liked it when Mcain was on John Stewart and Stewart asked him if he knew what his Secret Service codename was, and Mcain responded "I think it is Jerk".. :-)
    I can't imagine BO saying that.

    Parent
    Also, on TV tonight, they (5.00 / 4) (#136)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:14:41 AM EST
    had a tiny segment of him telling this story to an audience:

    A man asked me if I knew that I looked a lot like John McCain, and I said "Yes."  Then he said "Doesn't that piss you off?"  

    ;)

    Parent

    I did too and I also cracked up at (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Teresa on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:47:14 PM EST
    "gag me" from TChris.

    Parent
    Yeah that is pretty funny (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by daria g on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:54:12 PM EST
    I took it as a deadpan joke, which I'm sure it was.

    Parent
    Me, too. Hey, I love Abba (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:37:36 PM EST
    and I've developed a real distaste for the other candidate's music -- y'know, hip-hop like "Dirt on My Shoulder" (and dogs**t on my shoe).  

    Maybe McCain is gonna play Abba at his rallies and lead us in sing-alongs -- after all, he does like to laugh at himself, unlike another candidate I could mention.  I'd sure fit in a lot better at McCain rallies, as I'd even know all the words.  

    And they even would be words that wouldn't shame me, the candidate, the party, or the country.  It's a concept.  

    Parent

    Better this than (5.00 / 3) (#183)
    by janarchy on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:40:41 AM EST
    "99 problems and a B!tch ain't one of them".

    Parent
    WHAT? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Mary Mary on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:10:32 PM EST
    He dropped the McCain girls? I LOVED the "Raining McCain" one they did where his head was floating around.

    I liked the McCain girls (none / 0) (#8)
    by chrisblask on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:14:41 PM EST
    mostly because they were Purest Snark...

    ...and he didn't know they were.

    Parent

    I don't think that is true.. (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Clinton2012 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:17:37 PM EST
    Given that his political positions are diametrically opposed to Hillary Clinton's

    but what is Obama's plan to attract the woman voters... listen to her speech of endorsement from computer because he was too busy playing golf?

    I think we should not wich hunt McCain like Obama did against Clinton.. I ask all Obama supporters to not demean McCain with the same cunningness they used against Clinton.. let it be about actual policies and not the beating about the bush.

    Sen. Clinton thinks it is true (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by chrisblask on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:21:54 PM EST
    and I agree that the opposition to McCain should be policies, not pointless attacks about what music he likes or whether he watches a speech on a computer or a TV.

    -chris

    Parent

    As a Clinton supporter (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by standingup on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:29:14 PM EST
    I think it will help if we can cut down some of the unnecessary sarcasm in our comments too.  Jeralyn has politely provided guidelines for continued posting and I think we should try to respect what she has asked.

    Parent
    Instead of following the link (3.75 / 4) (#17)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:22:08 PM EST
    in the post, you might try this one which goes to a nice piece about Clinton getting out.

    McCainReport

    Parent

    A very interesting take on her talk (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:37:15 AM EST
    as I had not been able to think that far yet into what wasn't said, appreciating so much what was.

    Thanks for the link.  Bookmarked, as this is going to be fascinating to watch us being wooed.  Points to the linked site for showing that it thinks we think about serious foreign policy issues.

    And it will be fun to see who stumbles first in figuring us out.  Hint: the first candidate who has ads for feminine hygiene products will lose a lot of points, for real. :-)

    Parent

    I'm looking forward (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Nadai on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:51:56 AM EST
    to seeing who McCain picks for his VP - will it be geography, ideology, or demography that rules?

    Parent
    Ditto. And if it's demography (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:29:27 AM EST
    as is rumored, won't this be fun to watch?  Fascinating, after all these decades of the Dems just taking almost 60% of their voters for granted.  

    Parent
    So you think the man (3.40 / 5) (#44)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:48:16 PM EST
    Who asked "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father was Janet Reno" deserves a break?

    I suppose we could limit discussion to 100 years in Iraq, or McCain's health care program  for the healthy and wealthy, or his belief that the economy is fundamentally sound (which sorta sounds familiar)...

    Parent

    that joke pissed me off too (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by bjorn on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:51:02 PM EST
    I remember getting my brothers to back off support for McCain at the time because of that joke alone

    Parent
    Jayzus (5.00 / 9) (#62)
    by Emma on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:59:23 PM EST
    We've all heard the "joke".  Stop frickin' repeating it at every opportunity.  It just makes me mad at you.  Why is it okay to add insult to injury to Chelsea by repeating that?

    Parent
    I guess she thinks the 100th time (5.00 / 7) (#74)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:12:14 PM EST
    she posts the same thing, it'll start to matter.  Does royally piss me off to have it repeated, but not at McCain.  

    Parent
    So let me get this straight... (2.87 / 8) (#86)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:21:43 PM EST
    ...I am supposed to read sexism into anything Senator Obama says about Senator Clinton that is not 100% positive as dismissive or sexist or hateful, but Senator McCain says and does openly sexist, dismissive and hateful things and you get upset when reminded of that because...why?  

     And people who criticize McCain for making those comments are not endorsing the substance of the message or harming Chelsea (or Janet Reno, who was the primary (sexist) target of that cheap piece of crap joke, but I guess she doesn't matter).  What they ARE doing is pointing out what should be obvious to people who plan to vote for McCain (or are considering it) because they believe Senator Clinton was treated unfairly by Senator Obama, and yes, fairly or unfairly, forcing you to confront the harsh light of day.  So drop the holier than thou, mad as hell attitude.  

    Parent

    How's that? (5.00 / 12) (#139)
    by hitchhiker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:21:17 AM EST
    drop the holier than thou, mad as hell attitude.  

    I just spent the last six months having that precise attitude shoved down my throat every time I encountered another utterly sold Obama supporter.

    Now it's not okay, good to know.

    Look, I think the point here is that it's just going to be a lot more difficult to use the tactics that worked against HRC against McCain.  She was the most unpopular woman in America, remember?  You could accuse her of anything (even coveting an assassination, for the love of God) and it would stick.  

    It's not going to be quite that easy from now on, and I'm definitely not going to help turn those hoses on him.

    Parent

    Since you seem to know quite a bit (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:33:38 AM EST
    about Obama, could you please post some of the jokes he has told here or anything that shows he has a great sense of humor?  It doesn't have to be anything fancy...

    I don't believe I've ever read anything that has said anything about Obama's sense of humor.  

    I believe a good sense of humor is an important thing for a leader to have.  

    Parent

    Well he (5.00 / 13) (#147)
    by LoisInCo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:39:06 AM EST
    said his healthcare plan was Universal Health Care. I thought that was pretty funny.

    Parent
    Diet Pepsi (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by eleanora on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:45:21 AM EST
    all over my monitor! TY for the LOL :D

    Parent
    alec, surely you're not that stupid, or (5.00 / 3) (#206)
    by cpinva on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:23:32 AM EST
    are you? one huge problem with that is, you can't fix stupid.

    So let me get this straight...
    ...I am supposed to read sexism into anything Senator Obama says about Senator Clinton that is not 100% positive as dismissive or sexist or hateful, but Senator McCain says and does openly sexist, dismissive and hateful things and you get upset when reminded of that because...why?

    ok, for 9,337th time, for those of you riding the short bus. no, you aren't, unless, for reasons not made clear in your post, you feel so compelled.

    there's been enough spewed forth from the obama campaign, and its frothing MSM minions, that is clearly sexist, bordering (actually, nearly falling into the abyss) on misogony, that one needn't "read" anything, it's flagrantly obvious, even to self proclaimed dullards. even some from sen. obama himself, in a good way of course.

    if you've not noticed it, then you haven't been paying attention. your choice. but then, don't come in here, or anywhere thinking people reside, and act all confused. maybe it isn't an act. worse, i think.

    like i said, you can't fix stupid.

    Parent

    How about talking about the only major (5.00 / 13) (#79)
    by dk on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:15:23 PM EST
    candidate (Obama) who gay-baited to win a primary election.  Do we want to talk about that?

    Both men have deep flaws when it comes to their character and tolerance with respect to those who aren't straight men.  I just don't think it's going to be a winning argument for either of them.

    Parent

    Absolutely true (5.00 / 4) (#88)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:22:40 PM EST
    Which is why I default to party and issue positions. For me, the choice is clear. (I will be voting for Obama).

    Parent
    And why I look (4.75 / 4) (#90)
    by dk on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:24:55 PM EST
    at the long term health of the democratic party and the issues I care about, which is why I probably won't vote for Obama.

    Parent
    Your choice (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:26:07 PM EST
    I strongly disagree with you.

    My decision is something I came to on my own, but I take very seriously what Hillary said today.

    Parent

    I strongly disagree with you (5.00 / 4) (#94)
    by dk on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:27:21 PM EST
    and I am glad we have leaders like Hillary who will stay in the party so that when the party learns a lesson, there will be someone like her to pick up the pieces.

    Parent
    Hold up.... (2.66 / 6) (#96)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:27:41 PM EST
    ....the guy who gave interviews to The Advocate, mentioned the need to treat gays with respect in stump speeches before hostile audiences, attended a pro-gay church...he gay baited his way to victory?

     Wow, San Francisco voters must be very, very dumb, because in America's most gay-friendly city he edged her out.  

     This gay voter, who follows the issue pretty closely, sees at best marginal differences between the two.

    Parent

    I'd rather not dredge this up again (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:30:33 PM EST
    but he did gay bait his way to victory in South Carolina. The "'Embrace the Change' gospel tour" was not especially pleasant, for a variety of reasons.

    Parent
    Actually... (1.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:41:44 PM EST
    ...I didn't really see that as gay baiting, more of a painful first step.  But I respect that others in the gay community disagree.  That episode, and others, have offended me more as an agnostic than as a gay guy, if we want to get into identity politics.

     However, I have heard a lot of attacks on Obama's former church on gay blogs, and that is unwarranted and either exposes ignorance or prejudice.  

    Parent

    Whether you saw it that way (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:43:47 PM EST
    or not, gay baiting it was.

    I think it speaks to my personal commitment to the Democratic party that I'm going to vote for him anyway.

    Parent

    Well, some in his church did (none / 0) (#127)
    by dk on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:53:44 PM EST
    support ex-gay movements (though links to those movements on the church's website were whitewashed after the McClurkin episode).  

    Though, I agree that painting Obama's church with a broad brush as homophobic is unfair.  

    Parent

    In that Advocate interview (5.00 / 5) (#108)
    by dk on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:32:36 PM EST
    he gave (after he spent months avoiding the gay press, and a few years after he refused to be photographed with the mayor of San Francisco who bravely performed some gay marriages), he spoke of a gay professor he had as good because he didn't preselytize.  As if all other gay men do, right?  Oh, and let's not forget the insisting that when he took an HIV test, it was with his wife because <wink wink, nudge nudge> he wouldn't want anyone to get the "wong" impression.

    Gay tolerance is a perfect example of why pointing to Obama's website is so useless.  The dog whistles, and in the McClurkin case the abject gay-baiting, tell a lot more about the man than any paper written by his paid gay staffer.

    Parent

    i had (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by boredmpa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:01:05 AM EST
    a lot more respect for edwards, who at least admitted where he was coming from and what his perspective was

    Parent
    Why the "lesser of two evils" argument (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:41:03 PM EST
    really doesn't work:  If they're both evil, why vote for either?  Why vote at all?  Yep, that tired old argument that kept me pulling the lever for a less-evil Dem makes it easy to see just what to do this time.  

    Because if I'm to assess their levels of evil by how many times they said and did sexist things, guess who loses that one, sweetie? :-)

    Parent

    Oh, if only blogs.... (2.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:48:32 PM EST
    ...had been in existence in 1996 or 2000, we could have all sorts of fun debates about the "lesser of two evils," as liberals threatened to abandon ship.

     Actually, the electability argument was always a (slightly more offensive, IMO) similar argument: "Who cares if you don't want Senator Clinton to be the nominee? Only she can win."

     What loyalty the Clinton wing is showing to their longtime supporters with their threats to abandon the party for McCain.  

    Parent

    The "you're being a bad girl" (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:00:19 AM EST
    argument really doesn't work, either.  Do you know how to deal with, as they say, "women of a certain age"?  Let's see which candidate does. . . .

    By the way, the ex always used to say he wanted to spend the weekend with the kids but would go golfing, too.  That's just one of the reasons why he's the ex now.  So that just was the topper today.

    Parent

    Uhhh.... (3.50 / 2) (#137)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:15:14 AM EST
    ...I never mentioned gender, age or anything that could be reasonably associated with either.

     I'm saying that some are loyal to the Democrats, some are not, and now one set is whining about a stolen primary and a flawed candidate, one set is not (and to my knowledge never has). So we're supposed to embrace an electability argment (read: lowest common denominator) but not a "lesser of two evils" argument?

     You're reading a great deal into my comments...and I really don't know why.  

    Parent

    When you've been loyal to the Dems (5.00 / 11) (#142)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:31:08 AM EST
    for four decades, donating and doorbell-ringing and voting, only to see the Dems lie, cheat, and steal votes to defeat the candidate best on your issues -- for a candidate who goes for those uber-loyal "Dems for a Day" -- get back to me.  Maybe then you'll have the "experience" to frame a better argument.

    Parent
    did I misunderstand you? (5.00 / 7) (#144)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:35:05 AM EST
    I'm saying that some are loyal to the Democrats, some are not, and now one set is whining about a stolen primary and a flawed candidate, one set is not (and to my knowledge never has).

    I'm hoping you aren't referring to Clinton supporters versus Obama supporters here. Because some Obama supporters started screaming "stolen primary" back in February, and Obama himself based half of his campaign on painting Clinton as a flawed candidate("she'll say or do anything...").

    Parent

    Nope... (3.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:44:23 AM EST
    ...I am talking about those who are now threatening, at the end of the primary, to vote for McCain.  

     Believe me, if the roles were reversed and Obama lost, I would not be very happy if Obama's supporter were threatening to vote for McCain.  But this time, my candidate won, and I am in the position of having backed the right horse, so to speak.

     And now, for my reward for supporting candidates I didn't prefer, I get "well now I am voting for the Republican."

     I should have been more selfish, it seems.

    Parent

    But just stomping on folks (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by eleanora on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:55:16 AM EST
    who disagree with you, calling them stupid, and insisting they adopt your POV because it's obviously the only correct one is mighty ineffective.

    We saw that in the 2004 election when people got mad and dug their heels in on Bush because they were sick of getting told nothing but how stupid they were and how awful he was. What we failed to do was make a good, solid case to enough voters that electing Kerry/Edwards would change people's lives for the better. I'm mad at the Democratic Party right now, but I hate to see us make this mistake again.

    Parent

    Did I say stupid? (3.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:07:15 AM EST
    No, I said selfish.  

     Stomping on folks you disagree with? You care to comment on the thrashing anyone with remotely pro-Obama tendencies has received by commentators on this site for months?

     Elitist, egghead, racist, sexist, misogynist, irrelevant, foolish, empty suit, etc.  This isn't just about what has gone on between the candidates, who have been relatively mild. I didn't come here after blogging on dailykos, I came here after blogging on law and independent political blogs.  It wasn't until this site was noted as a Clinton site that I decided to check it out, aftr having visited it (because it was a left-wing LAW blog) in the past.

     Not all Clinton supporters were like this, but this site has been vicious at times.  We've been cornered for months.  And now you're putting words in my mouth? Because I disagree? Yet again.

     As I am certain you feel about Obama, I like Senator Clinton more than I like her die-hard supporters.
     

    Parent

    Alec82 (5.00 / 3) (#182)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:39:16 AM EST
    There are lessons here for you if you would stop taking everything so personally. Reread Eleanora's post as a primer on what not to do when trying to influence others who disagree with your point of view, instead of as some personal insult to you. Read for the message, because the message was not an insult, the message was about strategy and how to effective talk to people who disagree with you. And part of the message is to really LISTEN to what is said, in order to understand where the person is coming from so that you can be an effective advocate. If all you do is end up yelling at people and calling them names you aren't be effective, you're being counter-productive.

    Parent
    Tree (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:47:08 AM EST
    There are lessons for you, too.  Part of my message all along has been to really LISTEN to what is said, in order to understand that we are not all Hillary hating maniacs, subtle sexism does not linger behind every post, and McCain is Bush II (Jeralyn and BTD agree, I suspect, with that last point).  To post a statement on this site, given the comments over the last few months, accusing me of "calling them (Clinton supporters) names" would be funny, were it not absurd.  

     Again, see my above reply to you, apply the counterfactual, and be honest.

    Parent

    I've never accused you (5.00 / 3) (#198)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:13:04 AM EST
    of being a "hillary-hating" maniac, nor has anyone else here, at least not after Jeralyn gets through deleting the offensive posts. I can understand that it might have felt that way to you sometimes. I'm sorry for that.  Again, this sound like you venting. Its perfectly OK to do so, understandable even, but don't try to mix that with attempts to influence people to your position cuz they are rather antagonistic to each other.

     I did apply the counterfactual  honestly. I suspect you won't believe me because I suspect that you think that everyone thinks in exactly the same way you do, so of course they would have exactly the same reaction you did. But not everyone does process information in the same way, nor do they naturally come to the same judgments. Its a hard lesson to learn but I have had to learn it in my personal life and once learned it sticks with you for life.

    Parent

    I'm sorry your having a bad day... (none / 0) (#186)
    by jackyt on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:43:48 AM EST
    Life is full of little disappointments.

    Parent
    I know, right? (none / 0) (#189)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:51:02 AM EST
    Like losing.  

    Parent
    Alec, come on. It's been just few days. She (5.00 / 6) (#201)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:16:31 AM EST
    gave a wonderful speech today. We need time, not Obama supporters jumping on us to immediately replace a candidate we were very committed to.

    I've been at TL three years, so I know what it is like too. The newer posters here have added a lot to it. They are almost all smart, committed Democrats. These aren't people who take politics lightly so give us a little break. I don't mean don't post, but don't argue and talk about losing. In many ways, we won some things too.

    We are extremely angry at our party right now. You are smart enough to see what Hillary Clinton has had thrown at her and not one undecided party member spoke up to stop it or defend her. We have every right to be angry. They want our money and our vote and they treat us and our candidate like that? This is our own party that did this and some are angry enough about it to leave.

    If you want to be a good advocate for Obama in the future, don't be so aggressive just now. I hated Nader voters, too, but those people had no legitimate reason, in my mind, to hurt our party that way. This time, the party has hurt us.

    Parent

    Fair Enough. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:19:02 AM EST
    Is that it? (none / 0) (#202)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:16:35 AM EST
    Are you now worried about losing?

    Parent
    You are taking this way too personal (5.00 / 5) (#164)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:58:16 AM EST
    And now, for my reward for supporting candidates I didn't prefer, I get "well now I am voting for the Republican."

    No one is voting to reward or punish you personally. They are voting their preferences and their consciences. This isn't some magical process where you being a "good boy" means that someone else will do what you want them to do. Believe me, life doesn't work that way. You will be repeatedly disappointed if you continue to believe it does.  

    Parent

    Oh please.... (none / 0) (#166)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:09:27 AM EST
    ...of course not me personally.  But unless they despise Clinton's platform, they're doing it out of spite.  And thumbing their noses as the other parts of the Democratic constituency that refused to nominate their preferred candidate.

     That is, unless they preferred McCain's platform all along.

    Parent

    Politicians lie about their platforms (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:25:11 AM EST
    Remember Bush?  He wasn't into "nation building."  He was going to be the "Uniter."  He promised lots of things while campaigning -- and how many actually happened?  He certainly didn't change the "tone in Washington" because "he was an outsider" (that was another one of his promises).  

    Anyway, they all lie.  You are better off if you just vote for the one you think will honestly be able to accomplish something, anything, that you want and not destroy the country in the process.  

    Personally, I'd be happy if either of these guys could fix the economy but the best candidate to do that was Hillary and she's out of the race.  :(

    Parent

    You don't have a clue (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:29:23 AM EST
    If you didn't mean you personally then you didn't state your argument correctly. "I should have been more selfish, it seems," is referring to you personally.

    Look, there are people who voted for Clinton who have real and valid reservations about Obama and what kind of President he will be. Many of them have reservations about McCain too. Some of them have decided that their  reservations about Obama are greater than their reservations about McCain and so are at this point planning on voting for him. I'm not one of those, but I can understand and respect their decisions, just as I can understand and respect the decisions of those who choose to vote for Obama.  Just as I hope others can understand and respect where I am at now, which is to vote for neither, either by voting third party or write-in.

     My vote is not intended to thumb my nose at anyone. You seem to think that people are doing what they do just to upset you and those like you.  It isn't, anymore than your vote is intended to thumb your nose at me. Get over your magical thinking on this.

    Parent

    "I should have been more selfish" (none / 0) (#185)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:41:52 AM EST
    is sarcasm.  Re-read.

     No, your vote is equivalent to Nader voters in 2000...as Clinton supporters might say today, drinking too much kool aid...ouch, that does sting, doesn't it? Particularly in light of what happened after 2000, huh?

     Apply the counterfactual and be honest.  If Senator Clinton won the primary, and Obama supporters were threatening to go to third parties or McCain, what would you be saying? You'd be where we are now.

     Even if you think I am being unfair to you and those who have decided to vote for McCain, why bother responding?  You've made your decision, right? I've made my evaluation of your decision.  You think one thing, I think another.  

    Parent

    I got the sarcasm (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:01:11 AM EST
    You aren't listening. I assume that the reason you bother to post is because you want to change some minds? Or is this all just a personal need of yours to vent?

    Kool-aid drinking doesn't sting at all after the kinds of names I've been called. (Your posts are really sounding more and more like a personal need to vent.)

     No, if the tables are turned, I wouldn't have been where you are now. I would have expected Clinton to do all the heavy lifting to convince Obama supporters to support her. That's what leaders have to do. If I seriously wanted to influence any Obama supporters myself the first thing I would do is listen to what their reservations were, and  I wouldn't use insults or threats as a way to convince them. And if I didn't think I could influence them without insulting them, then I would shut up. And if all I was interested in was insulting them, then I wouldn't  pretend to want to influence them positively.  

    And I don't equate Obama to Gore. Frankly I find the comparison rather insulting, not to me but to Gore. And McCain, bad as he is, is not Bush either.  

    I am responding because this is a forum and I have a right to respond. Why are you posting if you don't want a response? The point I am trying to make is that your style of argument is not influencing anyone in the way that you would like it to. That is the same point others are making here. If you aren't listening then that point can't help you, but its still a very important point to make.

    Parent

    I think many Obama supporters.... (1.00 / 1) (#200)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:13:57 AM EST
    ...have given up on persuading Clinton supporters on this site.  They can't be persuaded, they take personal offense to imagined slights, they disort our posts and our words, etc.

     It isn't venting.  It is pointing out where posters are frankly, not being honest.  

     BTW, this isn't argument, at this point.  It is just disagreement, or fighting.  Argument involves starting principles.  It has become clear, from condescendig language, downrating, and insults, that there are no starting principles for many clinton posters on this site.  

     I'll leave it another Obama supporter to make his case for you, if that is really what you want.  I just want to call out the ridiculous comments.  I want to call out downraters, personal attacks, etc.  I want to call out the vicious.  

     In real time, I'll work on the voters you describe.  Here, after the onslaught of personal attacks and distortions, I'll settle for pointed but fair remarks.  The thin skins deserve it, frankly, because the one-sided attacks from the now self-described "principled" posters are too much to take.  Call it venting if you want to.  Call it whatever you must.

     

    Parent

    Strawmen (5.00 / 10) (#149)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:41:19 AM EST
    are another argument type that really doesn't work.

    Cream didn't say anything about voting for McCain.  She objected to dragging out something McCain said 8 years ago for the 100th time.

    She asked a question -- why vote for either, and you responded by bringing up another argument, electability which seems to prove her point.  And didn't answer her question.  

    Then you challenged her loyalty.  Which is odd, because she didn't claim loyalty to the Dems.  Loyalty has to be earned, or it's not loyalty, but blind obedience.  Loyalty to something you don't believe in is just wrong.  And whether you agree with it or not, many people have decided recently that the DNC does not deserve their loyalty.  So insulting their loyalty is just ... not going to be very effective.

    Parent

    you don't want to go there. (3.66 / 3) (#46)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:50:04 PM EST
    McCain shows a great deal more class and less sexism  than Obama (which isn't saying much).
    I am so tired of this latest gambit from the Obama people.
    Only one thing matters to me, re Obama, since I absolutely viscerally detest him. That one thing is policy.

    Parent
    Seriously. (5.00 / 12) (#59)
    by dk on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:58:13 PM EST
    If the argument over the next few months is that "well, at least Obama is less sexist than McCain," I think Obama supporters are not going to be happy with the result.

    Parent
    What gambit? (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by auboy2007 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:58:59 PM EST
    The fact that he wasn't at the speech?

    I think that was the best course of action.  This was Hillary's moment with her supporters.  She didn't need him there.

    Parent

    "Policy positions" are talk (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by Upstart Crow on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:42:33 PM EST
    And they change with the wind. I want to see a record of constructive action.


    Parent
    Policy Positions (2.00 / 0) (#52)
    by chrisblask on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:52:49 PM EST
    Here you go.

    Just a primer, but a good start.

    Parent

    "Just go to his website"> (5.00 / 5) (#54)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:54:36 PM EST
    LOL
    Thanks. Been there, done that.

    Parent
    Cut the condescension, btw. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:54:56 PM EST
    Jeez how many times (5.00 / 6) (#68)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:05:34 PM EST
    is someone going to point us to that mostly decade old boilerpoint on his website.  Half of that crap was probably recycled from Kerry '04.  

    That's too lame for words.

    And I've read both his fictionalized autobiographies.  There's not a lot of there there either.  Mostly tales of woe from someone with abandonment and identity issues.  Not a good thing in a president IMHO.


    Parent

    Center-left... (2.66 / 3) (#73)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:10:42 PM EST
    ....positions have been standard for every serious contender since President Clinton.  

     Boilerplate? Fictional autobiographies? You're just on a mission to attack the presumptive Democratic nominee.  Your comments aren't even on topic.  

    Parent

    His books were mentioned (5.00 / 5) (#78)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:15:04 PM EST
    by the same commenter in an earlier comment as a source of information.  If replying isn't on topic, then WTF is.  By the way, if I want your opinion about boilerplate, I'll ask you.

    Parent
    If I could (none / 0) (#113)
    by suisser on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:37:17 PM EST
    I'd give you a "10" for that last. Hit the nail on the head, didn't ya!

    Parent
    and you're not upset about the racism memo (none / 0) (#170)
    by suzieg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:12:56 AM EST
    by Obama's campaign aide in NC?

    Parent
    I've always been an Abba fan. (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by theprosecutrix on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:17:45 PM EST
    It certainly won't decide my vote one way or the other, but I find it amusing.  

    I love ABBA and can't (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by bjorn on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:27:14 PM EST
    wait for Mama Mia with Meryl Streep, but I guess I am an Obama woman now, so McCain can give it up.
    It is hard enough to settle for second best, I am not going to settle for third best.

    Parent
    I don't understand, for months I've been coming (5.00 / 2) (#211)
    by suzieg on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:57:26 AM EST
    here and reading how badly, Obama, aides, surrogates, supporters, Dem Party, MSM, MSNBC a la Matthews, Olbermann and Abrams and CNN, treated the Clintons by alleging racism, and overt sexism, etc. and now because she was forced to endorse Obama, we have to basically be joyous and reward him for all of their bad behavior by neatly falling in line instantly like "good little girls" as they always arrogantly predicted that we would.

    By doing so, so radically, doesn't it in fact give him the permission to do it over and over again in the future without any fear of repercussion from our part? In doing so, aren't we in fact condoning them thus allowing them to take our votes for granted by being so complacent as they expected us to be because we had repeatedly come home to roost in the past, thus abdicating our right to stop this abuse?

    I want to teach them all a lesson because Obama's campaign was vile, repugnant and unacceptable. I want to make them sweat and grovel at my feet for months because I'm not as forgiving as you seem to be here. It makes me wonder how seriously invested everyone, who embraced Obama, in a matter of minutes after the speech, were in her candidacy! It reminded me of situations in high school when a choice had to be made between a girlfriend or a boy, and the boy mostly won out! If i learned anything in this race it's that women are not loyal to other women and as Madeleine Albright so rightly quoted: "There is a special place in hell for women who do not help other women" so if you can change your affiliation, in the blink of an eye, you are then complicit by refusing to protest against the abuse that was thrown at her and to force them into making sure it never, ever happens again. Let him crawl for his sins! Why are you so forgiving?

    In the reporting of the democratic convention in Austin, on our news tonight, a good majority of Clinton's hispanic supporters walked out after her speech stating that they were angry that the party and Obama rushed her to make her endorsement and that they were not ready to support him. They kept repeating, too soon, much too soon. They were very angry, as I am. No candidate in presidential history was forced to do this in such a short time frame. Why the double standard? and more importantly why are you not fuming about it? Is it that you enjoy seeing her being steamrolled by him? Where is your outcry?

    Reading that you can so easily change your alliance, shows me a degree of immaturity about how seriously you were invested in her campaign  and what she stood for: universal health care being her main goal, which he still refuses to advocate and fight for but professes to the contrary. As a woman who is fighting breast cancer and who, as of next month, will have great difficulty paying my $22,200 yearly health insurance premiums, deductibles and co-pays, embracing Obama, the only democratic candidate who refuses to fight for mandated health insurance for adults, was a realization that my last chance at getting some kind of relief is next to nil, so I might as well start writing my will. His refusal should have been a disqualifier for running as our nominee. He's shown himself to be a cold, calculating and petty little man who will not be swayed even though he heard multiple stories like mine on the campaign trail and still refuses to consider it simply to make himself more electable to the inds and reps, be damn the dems! It's obscene!!!

    I can not by principle, even consider voting for him. He's put my life in danger as he has in the past when he voted present 7 times on abortion legislation without an exception for the health and life of the woman simply for politica tactics and for his political ambitions as he is clearly doing now. He doesn't give a damn about women's lives! I know he's all air and hypocrisy. Judge him by his actions not by his words.

    I really hope that the million women march takes form - I've already found accomodation in Denver with an ex-work colleague who is kind enough to put me up and is willing to take in more women if need be.

    I'm not ready to make nice! I will fight until the last minute of that convention so that the party knows that I will never again be taken for granted and that I'm against the coup they perpetuated on May 31st. I didn't stay in that party for 40 yrs to be thrown to the curb because of Obama - I will fight for this party because I hate what it has become, and if I lose then I will look elsewhere, but rest assured, I will never vote for the party's selected behind closed doors, not elected candidate Obama! Needless to say, I will no longer post on this site!

    Parent

    I saw the play in NYC (none / 0) (#32)
    by auboy2007 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:36:22 PM EST
    and I thought the idea of a movie was silly until I finally saw a full trailer.

    Now I'm definitely going to see it.

    Parent

    Me, too (5.00 / 0) (#25)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:33:36 PM EST
    I've got Abba on my iPod.

    And they've got the perfect song to express how I feel about the DNC.

    Parent

    love it (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by bjorn on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:37:03 PM EST
    they aren't getting my money!

    Parent
    And (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Emma on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:38:22 PM EST
    here is what the DNC will be saying to me, and other HRC supporters, for the next five months.

    Parent
    I love it (4.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:02:03 PM EST
    I'm going to have make up a new playlist - dance music from the '80s.  Even the cheesy stuff is still fun.

    Parent
    80s music (and disco) (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by echinopsia on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:17:52 PM EST
    Is the best walking music in the world. Born to be alive, life after love, etc. Now I've added ABBA. I adore ABBA.

    Parent
    I've got another ode to the DNC (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by echinopsia on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:29:57 PM EST
    Oh yes (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:33:58 PM EST
    One of my favorite songs of all time.

    Parent
    DNC appears to need (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by MichaelGale on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:27:41 PM EST
    money for the convention

    DNC sells convention

    Elected Democratic officials have been calling on corporations -- meeting with Wall Street executives and flying to San Diego, Philadelphia and Las Vegas -- to raise the $40 million the party has budgeted for the convention, in August. In return, these Democratic officials are promising corporate donors "sponsor benefits packages" that include private sessions with federal officeholders and other influential party leaders.


    Oh my,,, (5.00 / 6) (#26)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:34:46 PM EST
    the hypocrisy.

    Parent
    So much (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:35:31 PM EST
    for not taking money from lobbyists.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by Emma on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:39:53 PM EST
    as long as they're not federally registered lobbyists, it's okay.

    Parent
    Ah (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:54:39 PM EST
    Well, all righty then.  Good to know the DNC has some principles.  :)

    Lord, it's going to be a long election season.

    Parent

    Did you see dozens of events (5.00 / 5) (#122)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:45:10 PM EST
    already canceled at the convention, for lack of funds?  Lack of all those major donors for Clinton, maybe -- the ones who tried to tell Pelosi and Dean not to do it, not to corrupt the process.  But they did.  Ooops.  Delegates like their parties.  They're so party-building -- so maybe they could hold caucuses, instead, and just stand around for hours?

    Parent
    wouldn't it be interesting if the majority (5.00 / 3) (#188)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:50:17 AM EST
    of donors to the DNC historically turned out to be the very voters who have been fired from the party (by Donna). You know, the "so called Democrats" as she called them today -- those that don't support Obama. That would be interesting indeed.

    Parent
    Has McCain (5.00 / 10) (#22)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:27:56 PM EST
    Taken himself off the ballot in Illinois yet?


    LOL, good one n/t (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by DandyTIger on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:36:11 PM EST
    Well I'm sure (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:50:48 PM EST
    McCain and Clinton are diametrically opposed to each other on the issue of gaming elections.

    It's what Obama might have in common with McCain on this issue that I find worrisome.


    Parent

    I like ABBA. (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:35:07 PM EST
    It's always nice to be courted.

    I like ABBA too (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:51:51 PM EST
    I don't know what the elites think we should be listening to.


    Parent
    WillIAm. (none / 0) (#57)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:56:37 PM EST
    I don't (none / 0) (#72)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:10:19 PM EST
    even know if that's an individual or a group.

    Parent
    It's a (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:27:35 PM EST
    Movement.


    Parent
    Of what? (none / 0) (#100)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:29:21 PM EST
    What first came to mind (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:33:51 PM EST
    Tones on Tail:

    Your eyes flash bright
    but no longer have fire
    everywhere you turn
    this world is your shadow
    with a pretty face
    you burn so many eyes
    this is the movement of fear
    weird pop
    you can't control
    a smashing guy
    a sack of gold
    teach me to be happy
    teach me control
    this is the movement of fear
    this is the movement of fear
    loved the stare
    that never cracked
    loved the doors
    they were never locked
    loved the fools
    at your finegertips
    this is the movement of fear
    this is the movement of fear
    this is the movement of fear
    this is the movement of fear


    Parent

    what's funny is McCain's favorite group in NIN (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by DandyTIger on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:37:51 PM EST
    which is about as far from ABBA as you can get. I want to see a video of McCain getting down to hard rock. Oh wait, he can't do that, he's left brained.

    Hmmmm.... (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:03:24 PM EST
    His favorite is Reznor? Admittedly, I liked Reznor...when I was a teenager.  Right about the time I was reading various radical books.

     Maybe Senator McCain is a nihilist.  Or maybe he has a soft spot for "Pilgrimage," the best fascist march I have ever heard...

    Parent

    Uh.. (none / 0) (#148)
    by JustJennifer on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:41:14 AM EST
    I am 40 and I love, love, love NIN.  I have been a fan for 20 years.  :)  I have seen Trent 12 times... next month I will see him for the 13th time.

    Parent
    Oh I still like... (none / 0) (#158)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:49:07 AM EST
    ...his earlier work, but nothing post-Fragile.  

     People have many, many reasons for liking or disliking him, as with any artist, but he appealed to us 90s teenage males for a reason....which helps explain why Senator McCain would use him as a prop.

     

    Parent

    Yeah I heard.. (none / 0) (#178)
    by JustJennifer on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:30:28 AM EST
    the McCain thing before.  I knew there was no way he was serious.  Wasn't he joking?  I can't imagine he would pick an artist who is pretty vocal about hating Republicans and corporate American like Trent.

    Parent
    The first time (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:16:04 PM EST
    I ever heard of NIN was when ten years ago when these two girls in a Starbucks were going on and on about how much they liked nine inch nails.  I thought they meant fingernails and was wondering how on earth you could do a thing with nails that long.

    The much younger friend I was with rolled her eyes at me and explained very very patiently.

    Parent

    Good lord... (2.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Thanin on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:19:41 PM EST
    if this is true then even McSames musics sucks.  NIN peaked with their first album and has kept trying to remake it.

    Parent
    Actually... (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:29:43 PM EST
    ...I liked "The Fragile," but I haven't even bothered with anything that came after it.

     Besides, Johnny Cash did a much better version of "Hurt."

    Parent

    J.C. did a much better version (none / 0) (#123)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:46:38 PM EST
    of just about everything he ever sang.

    Okay, so I love country music, too.:-)

    Parent

    I don't even like most country music, (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by rjarnold on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:12:05 AM EST
    but I still like Johnny Cash.

    Parent
    No he did not.. (none / 0) (#150)
    by JustJennifer on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:43:49 AM EST
    peak with his first album.  He still rocks hardcore at his age.  

    He has a song about George Bush on his new album.  He is simpatico with those of us who hate what our country has become.

    Parent

    I hate to do this, but NIN isn't his favorite (none / 0) (#129)
    by rjarnold on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:54:48 PM EST
    band, and he admitted to it back in 2000. Apparently, it was either some joke or some dumb way to seem cool with the young people.  

    Here's the article if you want to know a perspective on McCain from back then.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/07feb00/steyn020700.html

    Parent

    That article... (3.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:09:33 AM EST
    ...is more relevant now than ever.

     Of course Senator McCain isn't a huge NIN fan.  But he is a man who will say and do anything to get Americans to love him...for the purpose of winning an election.

     Although that hit piece has a rather nasty comment on what constitutes a "true" veteran, albeit in code.    

    Parent

    Please don't do this (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by hitchhiker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:36:58 AM EST
    a man who will say and do anything to get Americans to love him...for the purpose of winning an election.

    I mean, here we are, having just seen a whole phony and vicious character assassination play over and over like a bad commercial, and now we have to start it up again?

    Parent

    he actually has a point.. (none / 0) (#167)
    by rjarnold on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:10:01 AM EST
    most politicians will say and do a lot in order to win. this primary season it was a talking point that hillary was somehow the worst offender of this which was ridiculous because there wasn't much evidence that she was worse than anyone else. McCain on the other hand has been jumping around his whole political career flipped on wiretapping, and is even trying to be cool or appeal to groups by saying that he likes what he thinks their favorite music is.

    Parent
    of course you all missed my main point (none / 0) (#180)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:35:28 AM EST
    which was the joke about being left brained. Jeez, what's a comedian to do.

    So the big deal is that one politician said he likes NIN when maybe he doesn't or another says he's pro choice and then says he still hasn't decided if life begins at conception or not. Whatever, they're politicians.

    Parent

    the thing is (none / 0) (#184)
    by hitchhiker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:41:30 AM EST
    that it's one of those things that can be said casually about almost every candidate.

    not kucinich, not feingold, not guys like that.

    but almost every one of them will do and say things that seem out of character or designed to pander to whatever group they're talking to.

    you're right that watching this meme thrown at hillary for a year has made it tough to hear.  and i don't think that mccain --the person with the POW story-- is ever going to find himself in trouble because of this kind of attack.  

    it seems more likely to me that the person making it will look small and mean.  it's one of the things that will make him a tougher candidate than he seems to be.

    Parent

    agree, but I think Obama will be tough to attack (none / 0) (#191)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:55:06 AM EST
    too. Politically speaking, it should actually be fascinating. The attacks on McCain's age certainly work for core Democrats kind of the same way attacks on women have worked so well for core Obama supporters. But I'm not sure they translate to the general audience. Similarly I'm not sure attacks against Obama that have filtered through the right wing media will work for the general audience either. They both have to be careful.

    Parent
    Hmm (5.00 / 6) (#45)
    by Steve M on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:48:48 PM EST
    My wife is a disaffected Hillary supporter and she loves ABBA.  I took her to see "Mamma Mia" for her birthday.  Perhaps McCain is onto something.

    I took my daughter, whom I raised (none / 0) (#125)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:49:03 PM EST
    on Abba as the best music for doing housework, all that energy.  My spouse came along, one of a handful of guys in the place who just never had seen 1,000 women and their daughters whoop it up so much.

    You are a brave man.  Tip:  He just begged off from Menopause: The Musical with us the other night.  In that, he was a wise man.  Wheee.

    Parent

    I just had (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:09:57 PM EST
    a vision of Joe Liberman dancing with John McCain to ABBA.... it just ruined the song for me.

    Didn't talk old Joe long ... he has a grassroots group for McCain.

    At least he didn't play Leonard Cohen's (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by Prabhata on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:23:36 PM EST
    "I'm your man"

    Waaait a minute. Weren't we supposed (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:02:50 AM EST
    to just move right over to Obama?  Wasn't he "sure" of that?  Then why would McCain be movin' in on Obama's women?  Might there be a bit of a problem with that game plan, hmmmm?

    Yep, remember? (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:51:29 AM EST
    I am listening for Tone.  

    Parent
    Well, fortunately, he yells (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:30:54 AM EST
    so we ancients won't have to turn up our hearing aids. :-)

    Parent
    Cream...do you write (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:38:42 AM EST
    or post anywhere else, somewhere where we can be snarky?  I will be here but I respect Jeralyn,but I do want to hear all the snarky ladies.  

    Parent
    Try the Confluence from the blogroll to the right. (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:55:41 AM EST
    No one is snarkier than Riverdaughter. Most of them may be in bed now but give it a try tomorrow. There are some major snarkers there. One poster, Pat Johnson, will have you rolling in the floor.

    Parent
    count me in too (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:56:22 AM EST
    I really want to let loose somewhere.... :-)

    Parent
    Although an Obama supporter... (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by msnami on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:01:56 AM EST
    I'm delurking here with a pure anti-McCain argument.

    For the past 2 weeks, I've been reading some of the threads here.  As an Edwards supporter who shifted to Obama, the anger you are showing is uncomfortable but it clearly is what you feel.  

    It's clear that the regulars here can't stand Obama and will not vote for him.  But I hope that you can find other ways to show your support for Hillary than by voting for McCain.  (To me, writing in Hillary seems a possible way to express that support that would be recognized.)

    One major reason that McCain should not be actively supported is his position on health care.  On this and other pro-Hillary web sites I've read contempt for Obama's plan for universal health care.  But McCain's plan to change health care from employee-provided to individually-provided would reduce the number or working-class Americans who are covered.  (An analysis of this can be found here , it that does not mention Clinton vs. Obama at all.)

    I depend on employee insurance to care for a disabled spouse.  This position in particular horrifies me for what it could do to or life.

    There are many other facets of McCain's domestic and economic policies that seem to be anathema to Hillary.  If you remember ex-Senator Phil Gramm, you will see his influence in what MeCain has recently proposed.

    Please look critically at McCain's positions before actively voting for him.  I wish that this race had not become so divisive.  I hope that you can find a way to support what you see in Hillary that does not work against these principles.

    If you cannot support Obama, I'll do my best to respect this.  But please look critically at McCain's positions before actively voting for him.  I wish that this race had not become so divisive.  

    You'll do your best to respect my decision? (5.00 / 3) (#207)
    by FemB4dem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:29:38 AM EST
    Really?  Why would I possibly care?  You Obama supporters truly take the cake -- so self-important and arrogant, just like your leader.

    On the policy issues -- a small secret, that's what we have a Congress for, to make policy, and block policy from the president of another party.  I know Queen Nancy has been particularly bad at that, but presumably she and Harry will get some steel in their spines when Hillary returns to the senate and shows them how.  

    McCain will have zero chance to get his health care plan through, and will abandon it the minute he is elected.  Remember, he has all but promised he will be a one-termer.  So, he will not be running for re-election, but will be looking for legacy from Day 1.  I really could see him signing a atripped down UHC bill Hilllary crafts and guides through the process, for the good of the country.  I had enough of reading Obam's fiction, so I am now reading McCain's book.  His focus on family history and legacy is clear as a bell.  In a kind of bitter irony, he and Hillary could make a great team.

    One more thing, on the Supreme Court blackmail you and yours keep trying to sell, you would do well to remember (or if you're younglings, read a little history).  Many of the best Supreme Court justices were appointed by moderate republicans (Warren and Brennan by Eisenhower; Stephens by Ford; O'Connor by Reagan; Souter by Bush I).  Faced by a Congress with a spine, I think McCain will likely do the same, if it becomes necessary.  (I find your haste to write JPS's obituary a little creepy, FYI).  Obama?  I have no idea what he would do, and therein lies the overarching problem that cannot be escaped.  I cannot and will not vote for the proverbial "pig in a poke."  

    Parent

    gee alec, who the hell (5.00 / 2) (#208)
    by cpinva on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:44:54 AM EST
    exactly do you think you are?

    And now, for my reward for supporting candidates I didn't prefer, I get "well now I am voting for the Republican."

    I should have been more selfish, it seems.

    geez, what an egotistical little twit (intellectually, not physically, since i've no clue how big you are.) you are.

    fine, sen. obama seems poised to win the nomination. let me clue you in boychick, he's reached his apogee politically. in spite of himself, mccain will win in nov.

    between the demographics of the states obama won, his alienation of a goodly chunk of the core democrats, the coming onslaught of republican 527's and the already turning of the MSM on him, he'll be a lamb led to slaughter in the GE. it will not be a pretty sight.

    i won't vote for mccain, but i won't vote for obama either, i just plain dislike him. i'll write in sen. clinton's name on my ballot.

    i appreciate what sen. clinton is doing, and continue to respect and admire her. she's being the good soldier. in this instance, i just can't justify it.

    ABBA? (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:09:20 PM EST
    Um. . .

    OK John.

    And if I were a Hillary supporter (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:17:38 PM EST
    who hadn't made up my mind yet, I'd respond with this video. heh!

    Parent
    Best laugh I've had all day! (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Esme on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:19:17 PM EST
    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:20:48 PM EST
    I love Taylor Dane.

    Parent
    Have to admit that I'd never heard of her before. (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Esme on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:24:50 PM EST
    But I'm quickly youtubing in order to remedy that!

    Parent
    Lyrics for those who can't youtube (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:39:27 PM EST

    Red roses, temptation,
    You make the most of a sticky situation.
    I'm waiting my decision
    To see if it's love or if it isn't.
    Only time will tell
    Just how well I'll get to know you.
    Don't mean to lead you on,
    But I want to take it slowly, slowly.

    Don't rush me.
    I've made that mistake before, oh yeah.
    Don't rush me.
    This love could be so much more,
    It's well worth the wait, yeah.

    Desire means danger,
    I would never lie with a stranger.
    I'm saving all my passion,
    To see if it's love or just attraction.
    Only time will tell
    Just how well I'll get to know you.
    Don't mean to lead you on,
    But I want to take it slowly, slowly.

    Don't rush me.
    I've made that mistake before, oh yeah.
    Don't rush me.
    This love could be so much more,
    It's well worth the wait, yeah.

    My resistance is weakening every time we touch,
    cause baby you've got everything, everything
    That I've been dreaming of.

    Don't rush me.
    I've made that mistake before, oh yeah.
    Don't rush me.
    This love could be so much more,
    It's well worth the wait.

    Don't rush me.
    I've made that mistake before, oh yeah.
    Don't rush me.
    This love could be so much more,
    It's well worth the wait, yeah.



    Parent
    I'm partial to this one (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:27:59 PM EST
    And there's this one by Aretha (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:54:38 PM EST
    but get your hankies ready, it's a heartbreaker.

    Parent
    Thank you (5.00 / 0) (#132)
    by Nadai on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:08:39 AM EST
    Those were good days - not a Golden Age, nothing ever is, but good days.

    Parent
    Who is that introducing her? (5.00 / 0) (#156)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:46:30 AM EST
    Is that Edward James Olmos?

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by Nadai on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:49:16 AM EST
    Handsome devil.  :)

    Parent
    I'll say! n/t (5.00 / 0) (#173)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:20:47 AM EST
    One more, because this is fun (5.00 / 7) (#58)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:58:10 PM EST
    message to Obama. . .:

    Prove your love
    Got to prove your love
    I hear all about what you can do
    But I got to know
    Is it true
    Your telling me to trust
    What should I believe
    You promised so much
    But talk is cheap
    You tell me that you're serious
    But I gotta know for sure
    You say how much you want me
    But I've heard it all before



    Parent
    It IS fun, here's mine: (none / 0) (#98)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:28:37 PM EST
    Love Song

    I missed the speech today bc I had to go to an appt.  Driving back, I swear every song I heard could have applied to Hillary talking to Barack.

    This was the first one.

    Snippet:

    I'm not gonna write you a love song
    'cause you asked for it
    'cause you need one, you see
    I'm not gonna write you a love song
    'cause you tell me it's
    Make or break in this
    Or you're on your way
    I'm not gonna write you to stay
    If all you have is leavin',
    Imma need a better reason
    To write you a love song today, today, yea


    Parent
    So what music does Obama profess (none / 0) (#5)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:10:58 PM EST
    to like?

    "Gonna Make You Sweat."...a shout out to (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:15:01 PM EST
    obama

    Parent
    boy the comment about Gonna Make (none / 0) (#85)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:19:53 PM EST
    You Sweat was an answer to a comment about 15 or so ago...sorry

    Parent
    Who cares? (none / 0) (#12)
    by chrisblask on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:17:44 PM EST
    I've been watching the guy for five years, and supporting him for one, and I haven't the slightest clue.

    If politics comes down to music selection I'm gonna have a highschool flashback (eeewww, he likes New Wave!).

    -chris "Bobby Darin" blask

    Parent

    I think the question (none / 0) (#24)
    by suisser on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:30:15 PM EST
    no matter how superficial it might seem speaks to how very little we actually know about the man. What music he likes, what he believes, what he plans to do etc. You know, the kinda stuff one generally knows about a candidate...

    Parent
    From Obama's Facebook: (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by auboy2007 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:34:51 PM EST
    Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Bob Dylan, Stevie Wonder,
    Johann Sebastian Bach (cello suites), and The Fugees

    Nice list, in my opinion.

    Parent

    Only the cello suites?! (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:37:39 PM EST
    Omitting the Chaconne for violin is very upsetting!

    Parent
    How elitist. (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:08:49 AM EST
    It's intended to be a nice list, for pity's sake! (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Upstart Crow on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:22:28 PM EST
    This isn't a truth document, it's advertising! It's artfully arranged to make a certain impression. It may or may not reflect anything about him. It's like those American Express ads -- designed to make the featured person look glamorous.

    Parent
    And this pitch by McCain is more (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by auboy2007 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:25:42 PM EST
    genuine?

    Is most of that personal tid-bit (what's the the IPod) kind of stuff cleaned up?  I'm sure they didn't lie, even if the omitted so odd stuff.

    Parent

    Plus I didn't see (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:31:35 PM EST
    Jay-Z on that list.

    Just trying to fulfill my responsibilities as a voter to research the candidates.

    Parent

    I was unclear (none / 0) (#38)
    by suisser on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:39:36 PM EST
    The "He" in my comment was Sen Obama. I feel that I do not know him, his likes, his inclinations. After all this time I honest feel confused about what he believes and what he really, really feels strongly about.

    Parent
    You were clear. (none / 0) (#40)
    by auboy2007 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:42:12 PM EST
    You mentioned you didn't know him, and one of those things you didn't know was what music he likes.

    I was providing some info for you, and anyone else, with the same thought.

    No, it's not his inner most secrets, but every little bit helps, in my opinion.

    Parent

    Well, there's always those couple books he (1.00 / 1) (#41)
    by chrisblask on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:44:24 PM EST
    wrote, a website full of policies, legislative record etc.  Trying hard not to respond with counter-snide, but if "we" don't know what his policies are then "we" should do a bit of research before being either pro or con.

    I could provide the links if you like, and the books are available at amazon...

    -chris

    Parent

    Not my responsibility (5.00 / 7) (#43)
    by Emma on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:48:13 PM EST
    but if "we" don't know what his policies are then "we" should do a bit of research before being either pro or con.

    Or he should tell me.  Because that's what I thought the point of all those speeches and debates was.  Isn't that his JOB, to tell me why I should vote for him?

    Parent

    Now, now, sweetie (5.00 / 9) (#60)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:58:20 PM EST
    He has important things to do.  Once he finishes his waffle, he'll get around to telling you what you need to know.

    Parent
    One thing I hope Obama learns (5.00 / 7) (#67)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:05:14 PM EST
    is that this:

    a stump speech isn't the place to lay out boring policy minutia.

    Isn't always true. Indeed, in places like Pennsylvania, it can be a critical tool. Remember Bill Clinton's "boring" SOTUs? People loved them anyway.

    Parent

    And many Clinton supporters (5.00 / 7) (#107)
    by eleanora on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:32:30 PM EST
    love Hillary for her policy wonkish side and zest for the details of running government competently. If Obama could find a policy area he really loves and knows cold to talk to us about, we'd really listen and connect with that.

    Parent
    Nope (5.00 / 15) (#70)
    by Emma on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:07:49 PM EST
    He's not perfect but he's what we got so get yer head wrapped around it

    He's what you've got.  Get yer head wrapped around that.

    I want to respect TL's support for Obama.  But I will not be lectured to like a child.

    Parent

    Or by one. n/t (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:36:50 PM EST
    This reductionist argument turns my stomach (5.00 / 5) (#190)
    by Mark Woods on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:55:05 AM EST
    Not to mention the utter condescension of telling someone not to 'act like a child'.  I hope the clueless soon conclude that this brusk ploy to supposedly 'persuade' is never going to work.

    As a Florida Democrat I have been betrayed by my party and I while I once was very loyal, I now harbor no compunction to 'get in line' and accept 'what we got'.

    I want to send an articulate and effective message to the DNC, neither spiteful nor vexatious that they're not entitled to my vote. The only way to do this is to stay home or vote for McCain.

    We need to defeat the anti-gay marriage ban in FL, so I can't stay home, but I can register my durable disdain for Obama and the DNC by withdrawing and watching them try to 'correct' my 'childish' thinking (good luck).

    I don't know if my Blue finger could push the button for McCain, but ABBA for four years sounds better than this scolding from the 'elites'.

    Parent

    I don't need direct presidential diplomacy (5.00 / 8) (#76)
    by daryl herbert on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:13:43 PM EST
    Seriously this pisses me off to no end. "oh I don't know where Obama stands he hasn't walked up to my door and spent 15 hours bending my ear.

    He doesn't have to come to my door.

    It would be nice if he could give a few clear speeches, though.  We will see where he stands during these town hall debates with Sen. McCain.

    Parent

    You are missing a very big point. (5.00 / 5) (#83)
    by Upstart Crow on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:18:56 PM EST
    No, it's not the job of the voter. It's the job of the media, and believe it or not, they used to take it seriously.

    I don't care about the "policy positions" he holds or the website papers written by academics -- I want to know what his record of implementation is. I want to know his history of action. His policies have clearly waffled. And a senator can have any position he wants -- but does he have any ability to negotiate with a fractious Congress?

    No, I can't give up my job and my family to become a political researcher. But newspaper reporters used to be paid to do that, rather than be fans and fawning entertainers.

    We expect politicians to lie. We expect the MSM to tell us when they do.

    That's what has gone AWOL in this election. The blogs have taken over. I get most of my info from TalkLeft.

    Parent

    Good Point. "Mainstream" Media, isn't. (none / 0) (#109)
    by chrisblask on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:32:48 PM EST
    You're right, the MSM used to be the source of information.  Now they aren't.

    They used to hold the monopoly on information so they could stay in business by printing/broadcasting (some of) it.  Now they can't, so television particullarly has turned into a three-ring circus (CNN/FAUX./MSNBC) playing to whichever demographic they can get to tune in.

    And you think it has been bad, their ratings just dropped 80% now that the Primary that Keeps on Giving is over...  Expect them to create things out of whole cloth to get anyone to watch at all (just in case any of them haven't been doing just that already).

    Cooper, Scarborough or (whoeverthehell spouts on FOX) don't know anything that Ben Smith, Jeralyn or Markos (to name a very small sample) do.  And you can talk to these folks, unlike the Media Elite.

    We all have a transition to deal with not unlike former Iron Curtain citizens who had to learn to make their own decisions ("What do you mean what kind of milk do I want?!?  The stuff from a cow, of course!").  

    Yes, it was easier to listen to one of three TV pundits to get our opinions from.  No, that is no longer the case.  

    I analyze how this stuff evolves (in part) for a living.  You are right, it is harder.  But you can actually get information (note the root word) these days instead of just News.

    -best

    -chris

    Parent

    The problem (5.00 / 9) (#117)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:40:28 PM EST
    is knowing what to trust.  I can get all the "information" I want.  But the Iraq war proved beyond all doubt that the MSM will lie at the drop of a hat, and this primary has done the same with most of the major lefty blogs and the previously less tainted parts of the MSM.  Go to Markos for news?  Yeah, I'll get right on that, after I ask Bill O'Reilly for his opinion.

    Parent
    I thought Obama was being marketed (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:11:22 AM EST
    as a new brand, a new kind of politician.

    Any marketing manager knows, it isn't enough to get people to come to the store.  You have to get them to buy your brand.  You've wasted all your time if you get them to come to the store but they buy the other guy's brand once they get there.  

    It's not up to the consumer to do the research.  That is what advertising is for.  Sometimes, it really helps to read the brochure to people because they may not buy your product if they don't understand the benefits of it.  Good advertising educates consumers.  

    Getting voters to the polls is the same as getting them to the store.  Getting them to buy Obama -- well, that is up to Obama.  
         

    Parent

    Ah, the poll-tested permanent campaign... (none / 0) (#138)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:19:21 AM EST
    ...is one of the (very few) areas where Clinton and Bush enjoyed many similarities, at least until their second terms.

     Much like politics isn't a game, it isn't a business venture either.  Or a slick advertising style, whether it is built on "the new" or "the invincible."  Politics is policy, ideally.  

    Parent

    And Obama shares this with both of them. (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:10:17 AM EST
    Much like politics isn't a game, it isn't a business venture either.  Or a slick advertising style, whether it is built on "the new" or "the invincible."  Politics is policy, ideally.  

    Does Axelrod know this?  Here's an article about him that you might enjoy:  Media consultant David Axelrod
    sells Democratic politicians just like Pepsi
    sells soft drinks. But don't blame him if
    you get one-calorie candidates



    Parent

    By the way, this article about (none / 0) (#172)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:15:11 AM EST
    David Axelrod is particularly interesting because it is from 1993.  Axelrod has a LOT of experience marketing his products!  

    Parent
    Of course he does... (none / 0) (#174)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:21:19 AM EST
    ...as did Senator Clinton.  It just happens that Penn did a lousy job.

    Parent
    Policy AND Communication! (5.00 / 4) (#203)
    by jackyt on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:17:21 AM EST
    It is Obama's job to communicate his policy positions. He has had ample opportunity, hours and hours of prime time, to do that. And he hasn't been effective in doing that job. Now you are telling me to shut up and do my homework! No if your guy wants my vote, he's going to have to work a lot harder at convincing me he's worth it.

    By the way, are you one of those "into the valley of death ride the 400" guys?

    Parent

    Plus... (5.00 / 5) (#205)
    by jackyt on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:22:35 AM EST
    I want to hear Obama explain his policy positions because I want to be satisfied that HE understands them. Reading canned stuff on a website doesn't tell me THAT.

    Parent
    Yes that is his job, no, that is not what speeches (3.00 / 2) (#63)
    by chrisblask on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:01:44 PM EST
    are for.

    Stump speeches are sound bites.  If you want to know anything about a candidate, it's best to get past what can be espoused in fifteen minutes.  Some of those highlights are in those speeches, but reducing complex issues to platitudes is no way to communicate the requisite complex positions.

    Look, folks, I am not trying to get into an insult match.  I thought there was some seriousness about wanting to know the policy positions of the Dem nominee and I've said my bit and provided the links for anyone reading who wants to actually know to read up on them.  Do with them what you will.

    Please consider my future lack of response to leading insults as an answer.  If anyone wants to talk seriously about anything, I'm all ears.

    -chris

    Parent

    those books (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:29:59 PM EST
    are fiction.


    Parent
    You are correct, I have not (4.83 / 6) (#69)
    by suisser on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:07:46 PM EST
    read his books, but I do believe that by now as a greedy consumer of news I should have some idea of what the MAN stands for. And I don't. His speeches are vague and gloriously insubstantial and I DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE MAN STANDS FOR, other than unity and hope and all that BS.

    PS What sort of person writes TWO memoirs before the age of 50?? Are his books a political asset or a window into his narcisstic soul?

    Parent

    Unfortunately, News isn't information (none / 0) (#115)
    by chrisblask on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:38:08 PM EST
    I just commented on that so I'll save everyone hearing it all again.

    But in short, we used to expect to get information from the MSM.  It was never very much or very good, but it was all we had.  Now we have to dig deeper ourselves and read/question more sources.

    Harder work, more fulfilling.

    -night suisser/all

    -chris

    Parent

    Chrisbalsk in cyber speak = arrogence (none / 0) (#126)
    by suisser on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:51:58 PM EST
    And arrogence in cyber speak = failure in the GE.

    -night Chris/all
    -Suisser

    Urgh,,, are all their trolls under 20...?  Urgh

    Parent

    Did you miss out on Obama Girl (none / 0) (#31)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:36:19 PM EST
    and WillIAm?

    Parent
    Nope, but that's the stuff *I* like, no idea what (none / 0) (#47)
    by chrisblask on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:50:06 PM EST
    he thinks about them.

    Commenter above listed some, agree that sounds like a good list.

    And I pre-apologize for my tone in the last comment.  This is the link to the overall policy positions of Sen. Obama.  Worth a read whether you end up for or against him.  The books are interesting, as well, and provide a good background on the guy.

    -chris

    Parent

    It's written by a bunch of academics, Chris. (4.66 / 3) (#93)
    by Upstart Crow on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:27:05 PM EST
    More smoke and mirrors.

    Parent
    No thanks. (4.00 / 1) (#50)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:51:46 PM EST
    I was referring to our comment about music and politics.  I'm not interested in white papers from capaign websites.

    Parent
    Ew. (none / 0) (#6)
    by Esme on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:12:35 PM EST
    ABBA is not the way to this woman's heart.

    Maybe if he crowns me dancing queen, we can talk.

    Hmm.... I think ABBA really soothes (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:13:43 PM EST
    the bitter heart.

    Parent
    I'm no longer bitter. (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Esme on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:15:55 PM EST
    Just really sad =(

    Parent
    that's hilarious and I love it (none / 0) (#97)
    by nycvoter on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 11:28:23 PM EST


    I'm sure the McCain campaign... (none / 0) (#140)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:22:05 AM EST
    ... thinks it can make some inroads into Hillary's coalition. And to some extent, it can. I'm sure it can peel off some blue-collar white men, some Hispanics, and some senior citizens, all of which are groups that might have supported Hillary despite being a bit more conservative than her.

    I can see why McCain's campaign wants to go after the voters who make up the core of Hillary's support - white women in the 35-65 range. They are the voters most likely to hold a grudge over the primary race, since they are the ones who most identify with Hillary on a personal level. But McCain's outreach is likely to be embaressing and ineffective, since these are the voters he really shares nothing with. They are fairly likely to be anti-war, where being pro-war is McCain's defining issue. And they are the most likely to care about judicial nominees.

    you keep thinking that. fine with me. (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:44:12 AM EST
    we will see in november now won't we. good democrat? my, some of us think we are being good democrats by taking them to task for a number of important issues. that is another diary or many diaries i think.

    Parent
    So then there's nothing to worry about. (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by hitchhiker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:45:06 AM EST
    That's a relief.

    Parent
    Except that Clinton brought over (5.00 / 4) (#155)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:45:46 AM EST
    some Republican-leaning women who liked a lot of her stands and especially her strength.  The sort of Republican-leaners that Obama said he was going to get.  So McCain is going after them first -- and he just might have a better chance with them, huh?

    Now, allow me to add that, as woman in the demographic you cite, suggesting that we see this as a "grudge" match not only is getting us wrong, it's not very nice and thus not at all persuasive.

    As for the war, that could have been persuasive for me -- until the day after Obama "won," and went on CNN to sound just like Bush with Obama's "indefinitely."  Didn't you see that?  It's gonna be a problem.  It's called a . . . flip-flop.

    Parent

    But he doesn't have to peel off many (5.00 / 3) (#157)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:49:01 AM EST
    to make a significant inroad. Democrats always do better with white women then white men. If the democratic candidate can't keep that positive gender gap with women going then the Democrat will lose. I'm pretty sure that Republicans know this, and that's why its worth it to them to make the pitch. And besides, I don't think that McCain is going to make the war his defining issue. Obama may try to do that, but whether it will work or not is another question. Since Obama hasn't done much to end the war, and his advisers are now saying that we may be there for awhile, it might not be such a winning issue for him.

    Parent
    Don't think you really understand Clinton's (5.00 / 6) (#171)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 01:14:25 AM EST
    supporters.

    First off, referring to them as 'holding a grudge' is insulting, and, even if it were true, not likely to persuade them to support Obama.

    He has already lost a lot of the her supporters in the anti-war, judicial nominee category because they are also those who follow the issues and the primaries closely (ie most of TL) and they know what went down.  They are willing to vote (or not vote at all) because of their principles.  That's a tough group to sell to, and since Obama put himself in the hole with them, it will be a lot more work than you think to win them back.

    But there's another set of Clinton supporters who may be even harder for Obama to win.  These are the people who would have leaned McCain or supported him already had Clinton not been in the race.  

    These are people worried about the economy.  They are opposed to the war because of mismanagement, they are not opposed to war in general.  They are older people who do not look kindly on proposals to privatize Social Security or incomplete Universal Health Care plans.  A lot of them have seen many, many campaign speeches and are not bowled over by a series of rousing speeches.  They've been there and they've done that.

    Half my extended family are folks who've voted Republican longer than I've been alive and they voted for Hillary.  There's close to 0 possibility they'll transfer to Obama.

    And it's probably not a good idea to put forth the idea that McCain's efforts at attracting women are likely to be 'embarrassing and ineffective' just yet.

    Parent

    As to judicial nominees, apparently (none / 0) (#160)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 12:49:46 AM EST
    not, if you read the comments here of those who plan to either vote for McCain for Pres. or not vote for Pres.

    Parent
    I saw Mama Mia in Vegas (none / 0) (#197)
    by FemB4dem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:02:49 AM EST
    last year.  I had really forgotten how much I love Abba.  IMO, this was pitched just right; funny and such a nice contrast to "I've got 99 Problems but a B*tch ain't one." Round 1 to McCain.

    It's just fun. (none / 0) (#199)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:13:54 AM EST
    There will be enough mountains coming that we don't have to look for molehills to elevate.

    Am I the only one here? (none / 0) (#209)
    by miwome on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:53:16 AM EST
    Oy vey. I mean, I get why it's cute and all, but ultimately I just feel like I'm being picked up. By a creepy older man with very little respect for women except in terms of what they can do for him (make their jets available, carry him to the White House, whatever).

    Jeralyn has a new open thread up. (none / 0) (#210)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:54:49 AM EST


    This link should be posted too (none / 0) (#212)
    by Siguy on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:02:48 AM EST
    cpinva (none / 0) (#213)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:03:54 AM EST
      From your "short bus" to your "twit" to your "boychick" to your "egotistical" comments...go frack yourself, as they say on BSG.

     You're a disgrace to Senator Clinton's honorable supporters.  There was no need to resort to personal attacks.

    Perhaps Obama Needs to (none / 0) (#214)
    by bob h on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:55:42 AM EST
    remind women of McCain's treatment of the first wife who waited for him while he was in Hanoi?

       Honey I'm still free
        Take a chance on me  


    So close (none / 0) (#215)
    by mwb on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:28:09 AM EST
    ABBA's fun, but won't get my vote.

    Had you gone with the Starland Vocal Band's Afternoon Delight, you might have caught my attention.

    ;-)