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Sunday Afternoon Open Thread

Your turn again.

Joe Gandleman responds to my posts on Obama's VP selection thusly:

YET ANOTHER SUGGESTION OF ENTITLEMENT: . . . Question: if the person who gets the Vice Presidential slot is the one who got the next largest number of votes, then why bother with Veep selections? Or hasn’t it been that the Presidential nominee balances political needs and then makes a decision. There is no entitlement to the V.P. slot.

Of course there is no entitlement to the VP slot. What Joe forgets is there is no entitlement to VOTES either. What Joe and other people commenting on my posts seem not to get is that I am not making an argument that Hillary is entitled to anything - I am making an argument that Obama would be wise to CHOOSE Clinton, as it will help his chances in November. I do wish people would actually address my post instead of dreaming up arguments to refute that I never made.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< How Can Obama Lose The Election? | A Shocking Sentence >
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    The post-mortems (5.00 / 9) (#2)
    by eleanora on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:42:39 PM EST
    are sadly hilarious. Analysis: Clinton loosens up -- finally has some good reporting, but the actual analysis is jaw-droppingly obtuse:

    "The speech offered a telling glimpse into what might have happened had Clinton shed her pantsuit-clad androgyny and presented herself instead as what she was: a female trailblazer, going where no woman in this country had ever gone before."

    I...just don't know what to say to that. Heads we win, tails you lose.

    I saw that yesterday (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by lilburro on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:55:25 PM EST
    what a crock.  Aside from the fact that pantsuits were her choice of clothing and that she should be left alone about it (and would be left alone, were she a man), every woman in this country knows that Clinton's biggest goal at the beginning of the election was to show she could be commander-in-chief.  She was able to do that.

    Female trailblazer?  Yeah, that would've totally worked.   I'm sure the MSNBC guys would've loved that.

    Parent

    pantsuit-clad androgyny (5.00 / 9) (#6)
    by noholib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:58:26 PM EST
    Now, I'm confused, what IS the problem of Hillary Rodham Clinton for so many people--is it the fear of a smart woman as a castrating b----, or is it really the specter of androgyny or something else?
    And the uproar over the "cleavage" in an article several months ago?  What DO these reporters want?  

    Parent
    At some point (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:17:53 PM EST
    you have to be gratified that they ae still attacking her.

    It's telling.  They may never stop.  Leno is pracically out of a job if he can't base his entire opening routine on the Clinton jokes.

    Parent

    Salo, you are so funny. (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:22:52 PM EST
    It's good to have you around.

    Parent
    Leno is actually funny. (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:00:31 PM EST
    I watched CNN yesterday.  They talked a lot about Clinton but it seemed like everyone of them was angry about her.  Not angry about what happened to her, but angry about her even running as hard as she did.  

    I just don't get it.  

    I hate having to watch FOX all the time but at least the people on FOX don't seem mad.    

    Parent

    It's the pantsuits (5.00 / 8) (#82)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:16:13 PM EST
    That's why she lost.  They are all closet fashion police.

    Parent
    www.hireheels.com (none / 0) (#101)
    by Josey on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:33:17 PM EST
    Pant-suit androgyny?! (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by jginnane on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:05:41 AM EST
    All remaining Presidential candidates, when referenced in the media, should be so described:

    Try it!

    "The pantsuit-clad, androgynous elder John McCain, and the androgynously pantsuit-clad Barry Obama, met to discuss their campaigns."

    Parent

    Androgyny, Not the Pant Suit (none / 0) (#160)
    by Spike on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:00:57 PM EST
    I don't really think they're talking about clothes. Their point is -- and I'm not sure I agree with it -- is that Clinton would have been a more effective, persuasive candidate if she had more explicitly framed her campaign as one to promote gender equality. That goal was always implicit but also secondary to being the best presidential candidate regardless of gender. In hindsight, was that smart?

    Parent
    Yes. (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Fabian on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:34:18 PM EST
    Both CLinton and Obama were deliberately avoiding running on:
    The Black Man and Race
    or
    The White Woman and Gender

    Because it's really hard to talk about The Issues if you've framed yourself as The "Whatever" Candidate with A Issue that isn't in the public's top five or ten issues.  It's self marginalization and while it might, just possibly work in the Primary, it usually would doom the candidate in the GE.

    Parent

    gender equality - a successful campaign pitch? (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by noholib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:40:03 PM EST
    Spike, I just don't know.
    As much as I would love to have gender equality and women's rights as human rights be the centerpiece of  the campaign, it's quite difficult to imagine that as a winning slogan -- given everything we've witnessed these past few months.  Would people have responded even worse if she'd been explicit about these goals? Senator Obama claimed to be beyond race and she claimed to be beyond gender, and it seems that our society was more ready for the former than the latter.  Ah, this is all so tiring ...

    Parent
    I was joking (none / 0) (#173)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:59:00 PM EST
    but unless I missed a really, really crazy David Bowie moment from the Ziggy Stardust era in her campaign apparel, are people really trying to say that it's ok to micro-analyze her cleavage in decoding whether she's presenting herself as the women's equality candidate?  Truly?

    Parent
    What does a Female Trailblazer wear? (5.00 / 7) (#64)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:57:53 PM EST
    Was there a dress code and some secret set of rules she was suppiosed to follow?!

    Androgyny? Clinton?! lol!~ I dare say she prob finds pantsuits comnfortable and easy. I know I prefer pants to skirts any day of the week. Good thing I wasn't aspiring to be President or Dog forbid, a "Female Trailblazer" . . . .

    Parent

    A hajib? (5.00 / 5) (#70)
    by stillife on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:08:10 PM EST
    Sackcloth and ashes?  A nun's habit?  Or maybe a paper bag over her head?  Remember when she showed a little cleavage and the MSM boiz went crazy over that?  

    Parent
    That's why I'm confused! (5.00 / 5) (#78)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:11:59 PM EST
    I wonder what woulda happened if she suddenly had sported a skirt?  OH MY! She's showing some LEG! {it must mean something . .  she's using her sex to get votes!}

    Parent
    A skirt? (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by stillife on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:16:07 PM EST
    No way!  The CDS crowd always had rude things to say about her "cankles".  

    Parent
    EEEP! I forgot about that one! {sigh} (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:19:26 PM EST
    Several women have mentioned to me (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:11:59 PM EST
    they had heard Clinton switched to pant suits because, when she wore a skirt and stood on the edge of the stage to greet people, wearing a skirt didn't work.

    Also, not sure in what world the critics of her wearing a pant suit are living.  I seldom see women in my office or in court wearing skirts.  

    Parent

    That makes sense. (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:18:22 PM EST
    Also, with all the traveling, I'm sure pants were easier.  

    I wore/wear pants for the ease, comfort and easier upkeep durring the day. I'll break out a dress in the heat of the summer, but it's casual and I can go the bare leg route  ;)

    I swear this campaign season has really made me feel like there's a push to set us back a few steps. Or at least get us back in line to a degree.

    Parent

    The meme against Clinton for wearing (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:21:29 PM EST
    pant suits during the campaign is especially ironic given the recent death of St. Laurent.

    Parent
    well pants suits when climbing in planes, (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:41:15 PM EST
    platforms and bending down for this and that is certainly more comfortable for men and women. i think she dresses very well in fact much better than pelosi. ugh! sorry, but that lady just brings out the worst in me. she(pelosi) has been so polarizing.

    Parent
    tell you the truth when i see either men or (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:17:18 PM EST
    women putting down a woman who doesn't deserve it, then i look directly at the smart mouth. i wonder why they feel so small and then i wonder if maybe they really are.

    y

    Parent

    At least no media commented (5.00 / 7) (#113)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:50:52 PM EST
    yesterday, to my knowledge, on what she and Bill and Chelsea wore to the D.C. speech.  From what I could see, it looked like basic black (with a turquoise blouse).  A dark pantsuit was quite different for Clinton, whose jewel-like fashion colors in recent months have been so energizing and symbolic of joy.

    So I switched to black yesterday and today, as I am in mourning, too.

    Btw, if Carl Bernstein called me out for thick ankles in print and on national tv, repeatedly, I would switch to pantsuits, too -- in addition to how sensible they are for travel on the campaign trail.  Now, ask me what I think of Bernstein's looks? :-)

    Parent

    I hate to comment on Clinton fashion since (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:12:17 PM EST
    it seems to be somewhat gauche, but...

    I loved her bright colored pantsuits and her jewelry.  It was a very classy look.  

    I also loved the jacket (or top) Chelsea had on the night her mother gave her speech after the South Dakota win.  It was also very classy.    

    I don't know who picks these clothes out but they should be commended.  I really can't think of anything offhand I didn't like that either of them wore.  

    Parent

    yahoo has been so in the tank. (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:33:26 PM EST
    i see things in the morning on yahoo that make me say wth! then i look at some reasonable blog like tl and see the reality.

    Parent
    Let's play: what's wrong with the media? (5.00 / 8) (#5)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:55:36 PM EST
    start here:
    Former President Clinton, forever a riddle as a man and public figure, was seen by many at the beginning of his wife's campaign as a political genius, statesman and racial healer who had done much through his charitable work to erase the stigma of his impeachment for lying about an affair with a young White House aide and other personal sins. But his conduct during the campaign on his wife's behalf, right up to a blistering tirade against a magazine writer last week, raised new questions about his judgment and blotted his legacy.
    Whose opinion is this? How was it arrived at? Who cares, it's God's delivered truth!

    ARGH!

    it's kinda what the term limit (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:06:36 PM EST
    on Presidents is supposed to be about.  Republics are nasty ignoble backstabby places.   See Caesar or Sulla.

    No one will ever let a powerful lefty brand like  the Clintons repeat  or reinorce FDR's revolution.   You 26 years of experience to even know what to do let alone 16 years to know how to do it.

    We could have had a brand as powerful as  that of FDRs.

    Parent

    Hows that (none / 0) (#28)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:33:27 PM EST
    "powerful lefty brand" welfare-to-work working out?

    I mean, we all know the poor deserve to punished for their "poor life choices", my question is was it punishment enough?

    Parent

    It's sooooo funny... (none / 0) (#29)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:35:28 PM EST
    people always yammer about welfare reform but I NEVER hear anyone trying to reinstate it.  Hmmm.

    Parent
    I'd be happy if (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:41:22 PM EST
    they just cut off the govt contracts to pigs who stow their profits in offshore tax shelters.

    Parent
    i'd be even happier if they cut off (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:43:04 PM EST
    tax breaks for corporations that move their business off shore and offer them to corporations that work with them to create jobs here. there is so much we can and aren't doing.

    Parent
    Really not concerned with what would make you (none / 0) (#42)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:43:09 PM EST
    happy.  But the welfare reform=BC bad president needs to die until the Democrats nominate someone who campaigns for reinstating a big welfare program.

    Parent
    Didnt say he (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:52:59 PM EST
    was a "bad President" just that he's not incapable of error. Does that make YOU unhappy?

    Parent
    No. Because until someone (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:56:24 PM EST
    argues for expanding welfare, I find it hard to see it was an error.  Seems most people are happy he did it, but also happy to be divisve by calling it an error.

    Parent
    well i hope you are for cutting to welfare (none / 0) (#178)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:19:52 PM EST
    to corporations. bush really pushed that as you know.

    Parent
    The absence of historical FACT-z. (5.00 / 5) (#49)
    by wurman on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:48:17 PM EST
    The ideas behind welfare reform & NAFTA had (& sitll have) validity.

    The obvious factoids that Bu$h xliii & his henchthugs implement things in a stupid, phony, ridiculous manner does not make Pres. Clinton responsible for their results.  Bu$hInc has always intended to prove that government does NOT work.  So they make it not work, as per Norquist & the bathtub drownings, etc.

    This would be as foolish as blaming Sen. Frank Church, D-ID, many years ago, for the obviously unconstitutional results of the Patriot Act.  After all, Church was responsible for FISA.

    As Archie Bunker so graciously put it: "Ipso fatso . . . ya' gotcher' self a problem."

    Parent

    LOL, good point. (none / 0) (#39)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:41:34 PM EST
    I also don't hear too much about who exactly is hurting because of welfare to work. That's not to say that no one is suffering, just more a reflection of how little is has been talked about or analyzed.

    Parent
    I don't deny it's hurt people. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:44:52 PM EST
    But it's a false issue to people who demean Bill Clinton because so far as I can tell none of them want to resurrect pre-reform welfare.  So until they do, they should kindly STFU.

    Parent
    I still want to know why its so bad... (none / 0) (#50)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:48:34 PM EST
    ...that's my point. Nobody talks about it at all. Even beyond reinstating welfare the way it used to be, nobody even talks about reforming what it is now. Nobody seems to care about it except as something bad to lay on the Clinton administration.

    Parent
    Again (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:55:15 PM EST
    these people aren't sacred cows from the Temple of Shiva. They can handle a little "demeaning", believe me.

    Parent
    They go ahead. Start arguing for (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:58:12 PM EST
    expanding welfare.  Check with Obama's policy people.  See if he is up for that.

    Parent
    I think Roosevelt got a few things (none / 0) (#89)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:20:42 PM EST
    wrong myself.   Powerful brand though.

    Parent
    do you believe that obama will support (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:35:35 PM EST
    the very very successful fdr agenda? i don't! personally i think he'll be a good guy for the big corporations.

    Parent
    Fyi, for reports of who is suffering (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:18:30 PM EST
    from welfare-to-work programs, I'm in the city where it started, in the state with the goshawful Bushie governor behind it then, Tommy Thompson.  And it has been horrible mainly for, surprise, women and children.  It has driven many single moms, especially, out of school -- college, vocational schools, etc.  Some were my students, only a semester away from a degree.  

    Now, how does that benefit any of us, to continue to keep women below national norms in education and thus income -- and income taxes back to us? The program also has been, surprise, corrupt as can be so benefiting others but not recipients.

    If anyone is interested, here in the city and state where we now have long-term studies, see many reports at jsonline.com (the largest paper in the state) and madison.com (the two papers in the state capital) and many others can be googled; use the term "WW2."

    Parent

    Oh, I agree. (none / 0) (#97)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:28:52 PM EST
    But those who made it a big talking point in this election have no plans to roll it back.

    Parent
    Sadly so. What is needed (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:55:57 PM EST
    is far better oversight for far less corruption, so that the needy women, children, disabled, and others  get our tax money, and training for work if they can work -- but suitable work and with sufficient child care -- instead of fat cats padding their pockets on our money and the misery of others.

    Instead, we have seen devastation to worthy programs that date back not just to AFDC and just to the New Deal but even before, to the Sheppard-Towner Act won by women, newly enfranchised suffragists, who worked so hard for the program for other women and their children -- until the male medical profession-corporate complex demolished it, too.  

    Parent

    And good ol' Gloria Borger (5.00 / 11) (#15)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:12:49 PM EST
    just can't stop telling Clinton it's her job to be subservient -- after Gloria did so much to deprive us of Clinton in the job she wanted:

    CNN analyst Gloria Borger said Clinton must speak to the female voters who supported her, "many of whom are so angry about this race.  She really has to tell women why Barack Obama is the best candidate for president," Borger said. "She has to go a long way to try [to] get rid of that anger."

    Don't ya love that ambiguous last line -- implying Clinton's anger or mine, I dunno?  But no, Gloria, it's Obama's job to talk to me and tell me why.  As soon as he gets off the golf course, I guess.  I begin to wonder if the guy is as threatened by angry me as he was by Clinton?  If so, I'm staying far away from him, as I know now how he handles women who resist him.  Under the bus with sweetie me, it would be -- and I would be dogs*t on his shoe.

    Much in the CNN article reeks to the heavens, such as again that asinine Obama quote about Clinton shattering the glass ceiling.  That tells me he really doesn't get it -- he's "tone"-deaf to the most basic terms from decades of discussions on gender.  Or is he?  Somehow, it reminds me of Clarence Thomas saying he never really read or knew much about Roe v. Wade.

    Parent

    Can't Borger come up with her own (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:15:18 PM EST
    reasons for Obama being the best pick herself?  Is this going to be an administration or candidacy where the people failed Obama and not the Obama who failed the people?

    Are pundits and nesreaders insane?

    Parent

    What I find most perplexing about this is.... (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:45:53 PM EST
    ...that the more people believe that Obama is inspirational and transformational, the less they want him to do for himself. We must come to him, he need not win us over. Now I don't say that this is something Obama himself believes. i think he's willing enough to try to win Clinton supporters on his own terms, but his media fans particularly seem to not want him to do anything but just be Obama. As if asking him to do more would somehow be unseemly.

    Parent
    Maria....obama inspired me to transform (5.00 / 7) (#51)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:49:23 PM EST
    into a Hillary supporter...does that count?  :)

    Parent
    Me too actually.... (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:50:49 PM EST
    ...I never in a million years intended to support Hillary. I was wishing that she wouldn't run.

    Parent
    I told my Obama-loving mom (5.00 / 4) (#99)
    by stillife on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:31:30 PM EST
    last night, when she was going on about how "inspiring" he is, that he inspires me to turn off the TV!  Does that count?

    Parent
    absolutely.....welcome to the club! (5.00 / 5) (#125)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:17:51 PM EST
    You too?? (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by JimWash08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:45:41 PM EST
    Why, sure it does! Inspiration has many manifestations.

    I usually just put it to mute or just change the channel to something more palatable. There's only so much "What I meant to say..." and hopey, changey rubbish I can take.

    Parent

    "come to him" - fan behavior (5.00 / 4) (#92)
    by noholib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:22:55 PM EST
    Maria, "We must come to him?"  To my ears, that is extremely strange and worrisome language in politics. I can't help but see all this as having the trappings of a religious, conversionist movement. Too many of his supporters see him as the truth and the light and the way -- with the halo of a savior or a messiah.  And given the degree to which he has run on his personal biography, it's not surprising that he simply has to BE himself in order to satisfy many people.
    And many people who thrill to him think that all they have to do is attend rallies en masse and be excited and cheer. Accept as personal savior or cheer like a fan at a sporting event or rock concert.  I'm not accusing all Obama supporters of these kinds of behavior, but it has certainly been noticeable among more than a few.

    Parent
    Ugh (5.00 / 6) (#93)
    by stillife on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:26:07 PM EST
    Just another reason why I do not want Hillary within a mile of his campaign.  If Obama is such an awesomely inspiring leader, why can't he bring home the Clinton vote on his own?

    Once again, it's all on her.  Even though she's out of the race, she apparently wields an amazing amount of power and Obama, Mr. Unity, the candidate who's supposed to bring the whole country together, can just sit back on his a** and wait for her to deliver her constituency.  Funny that.

    Parent

    I'm Confused (none / 0) (#157)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:46:07 PM EST
    Is it possible that the talking heads like Gloria Borgia are representing their own opinions and not those of Obama?  I know it has often been difficult to distinguish the two, but might this be an issue as to which we Clinton supporters might need to do a little parsing?  

    On www.politico.com yesterday, Ben Smith wrote that Clinton's speech was "...met instantly by a call from Obama's campaign to his supporters -- via e-mail and text message -- that they send Clinton messages of thanks."

    And can anyone tell me (yes, I'm this obtuse on some matters) how to write to Gloria at CNN -- I think she needs some advice from us!


    Parent

    No Gloria. (5.00 / 4) (#103)
    by AX10 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:36:28 PM EST
    It is the choice of each voter whom to decide to vote for.  It is NOT Hillary's job to to do that.

    Parent
    I think what I find so offensive (5.00 / 10) (#107)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:43:15 PM EST
    about Borger and those making similar comments, is that they fail to consider that many of us actually looked at all the candidates, analyzed, studied, researched, listened, read, watched debates, asked questions and spent a fair amount of time actually thinking about which candidate would best represent us and best serve the country - and Obama did not make that list.

    She also fails to consider that a lot of the anger is directed at the party that more or less foisted this candidate on us - we are not fools.  We understand quite well that there is no reason the DNC had to wait until the 11th hour to resolve the problems with Michigan and Florida, no reason it could not have gotten a re-vote worked out well before the end of primary season - leaving us to believe that their end-game was all about Obama, and the RBC meeting did nothing to prove us wrong.

    And then there's the possibility that people like Borger are still amazed that so many people - women AND men - did not buy into the media narrative, we didn't get our talking points from them, we didn't let them push us in the direction they wanted us to go.  That we are not all mindless sheep, easily led, is not making the media happy.

    Maybe in Borger-land, it makes sense that the candidate who spent months making the case why she is the best candidate now has to do a 180 and make the case for the nominee, but in the world I live in, I think that case needs to be made by the candidate who wants the job.

    Parent

    look the poorest informed blogger (5.00 / 4) (#131)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:37:44 PM EST
    here probably knows more than this gloria person. she just spouts out whatever she naive thinks the big boys at her job want. we've seen folks like that in the work environment.

    Parent
    Maybe that's why (5.00 / 5) (#152)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:30:02 PM EST
    the MSM and blogworld can't let go of Clinton.  Because they were unable to impose their obviously superior judgements on 18 million people.  And even now, when she lost, they're still not buying it.

    How dare 18 million people not validate their egos?  

    Parent

    all these so called pundits are (none / 0) (#179)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:22:48 PM EST
    people like us who put their clothes on like us. the major difference is they have more makeup and bigger paychecks. and for these paychecks they'll say and do just about anything.

    Parent
    All still much more (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:38:03 PM EST
    angry about vulgarian children of a vulgarian nation making sexist remarks than they are about hundreds-of-billions spent murdering people.

    Or is it just that the other is so obvious that no one ever needs to talk about it?

    Parent

    Even blogclogging your deflection attempt stinks (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:53:10 PM EST
    The thread you're "contributing" to on happened to be about a specific bad pundit.

    angry about vulgarian children of a vulgarian nation making sexist remarks than they are about hundreds-of-billions spent murdering people.

    Rather than micromanaging other people's reactions on a topic, why don't you introduce that particular one and see who bites?

    I mean, if you're so personally more concerned with the "billions spent murdering people" and all.

    Otherwise you're just intentionally creating irrelevant clutter here as you did to swell and derail the GE topic.

    Parent

    Media bias (5.00 / 8) (#8)
    by frankly0 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:03:11 PM EST
    A very interesting poll out of Rasmussen today.

    Just 17% of voters nationwide believe that most reporters try to offer unbiased coverage of election campaigns. A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that four times as many--68%--believe most reporters try to help the candidate that they want to win.

    snip...

    Voters have little doubt as to who is benefitting from the media coverage this year--Barack Obama. Fifty-four percent (54%) say Obama has gotten the best coverage so far. Twenty-two percent (22%) say McCain has received the most favorable coverage while 14% say that Hillary got the best treatment.

    At the other extreme, 43% say Clinton received the worst treatment from the media. Twenty-seven percent (27%) say the media was roughest on McCain and only 15% thought the media coverage was most unfair to Obama.

    Looking ahead to the fall campaign, 44% believe most reporters will try to help Obama while only 13% believe that most will try to help McCain. Twenty-four percent (24%) are optimistic enough to believe that most reporters will try to offer unbiased coverage.

    The numbers are pretty overwhelming. Can't fool all of the people all of the time.

    are those 15 % Obama's extended family? (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:08:12 PM EST
    ???

    Parent
    that poll is encouraging (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:09:10 PM EST
    the public can be trusted to know what's up and what is underhanded.

    Parent
    Salo...it is certainly encouraging...was (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:56:15 PM EST
    beginning to wonder if America was still asleep.
    And, haven't obama's unfavorables been on the rise?

    Parent
    I confess that I have engaged in (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by MarkL on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:15:03 PM EST
    useless chattering with Jlv..
    Please, learn from my example and don't make the same mistake.

    MarkL....lol....kinds like when a tick gets (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:51:18 PM EST
    under your skin... :)

    Parent
    Or a mosquito bite, perhaps? (5.00 / 0) (#128)
    by ap in avl on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:35:20 PM EST
    Try not to scratch it.  It just gets worse.
    But I know it's annoying.

    Parent
    Jeralyn - are you still looking for (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:20:15 PM EST
    Please Hilary, Don't accept VP (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by mmc9431 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:22:14 PM EST
    I have been for the unity ticket in any combination from the start. The last 3 days have shown me that there's absolutely nothing Hilary could do to right this ship. If she runs and Obama loses, it will be because of her. If he wins, it will be in spite of her. And if he loses without her it still will be because of her.

    I think that all of those super delegates (5.00 / 6) (#34)
    by TomLincoln on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:37:46 PM EST
    who threw the race to Obama be recruited by his campaign and the DNC to do the heavy lifting of getting him elected now. Since they decided he was the best candidate for the party, they should have no problem convincing everyone else about the correctness of their choice. It already seems that these jerks not only took it away from Hillary, but then expect her (and Bill -- and probably even Chelsea) to be on the campaign trail constantly for BO. I do not want to see Hillary as BO's VP. I will support her in everything she decides to do except that. Let The One try to win on his own, without the assistance of the Clintons. I do not get to vote for President (I live in Puerto Rico) but if I did, I would simply sit out this election at least as to the presidential candidate, or else write in Hillary's name. I have not voted in many of the gubernatorial races here, simply because it is all more of the same crap no matter who governs this island. That may seem odd given that I follow politics very closely both here in PR, as well as nationally, but that is the case. However, Hillary represented to me the best presidential candidate I have encountered in my lifetime, much better than even Bill Clinton, who I hold in a very special place. I went to our State Elections Commission and re-registered (otherwise I could not vote in Dem. Pimary) just so I could vote for her. I took dozens of people that day to vote for her. I detest that the media and other Dems. are now placing the onus of an Obama campaign on her. Let him win on his own if he can. Or let the Super Delegates and other DNC members run around telling everyone how The One should win. This is a sad election cycle for me.

    Parent
    Excellent Post (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by JimWash08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:41:51 PM EST
    Let The One try to win on his own, without the assistance of the Clintons.
    I agree. I used to be all for the Unity Ticket (only if Hillary was on top) ...

    And then I shifted to a phase where I believed an Obama/Clinton ticket would be good. But now, I just hate the idea of it. (Sorry masslib and others, no disrespect to you) I would vote for it with one hand on my nose.

    However, Hillary represented to me the best presidential candidate I have encountered in my lifetime, much better than even Bill Clinton, who I hold in a very special place.

    Agreed 100%

    I detest that the media and other Dems. are now placing the onus of an Obama campaign on her. Let him win on his own if he can. Or let the Super Delegates and other DNC members run around telling everyone how The One should win. This is a sad election cycle for me.

    Say, are you privy to what is going on my head? You have expertly expressed everything I've been thinking and feeling today. Thanks.

    On a related note, CNN's Jeff Toobin and several others have actually had the bone-headed audacity to say -- on a number of occasions -- that the Obama campaign should actually recruit Chelsea Clinton to be the 'ambassador' of the Clinton campaign and send her to places that her mom carried.

    Err... ok, dictate what the 27-year-old daughter needs to do to get her mom's once-competitor into the White House; nevermind if she wants to or not. What a crock'o'shiz.

    Parent

    yup, let those supers now get out there (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:46:00 PM EST
    and tell us why they voted for obama. convince us supers. do your jobs. and while you are it, if you are in congress, please explain your lower than bush poll numbers.

    Parent
    No Obama/Clinton - petition? (none / 0) (#31)
    by 1950democrat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:36:36 PM EST
    An Obama/Clinton ticket would not be good for either of them. I hope that people will not pressure him into offering it or pressure her into accepting it.

    Perhaps we should get up a joint petition for supporters of both sides to express that. I've got a  draft at

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/nohillaryvp/

    NO Obama/Clinton

    For differing reasons, we oppose having Hillary Clinton as VP on an Obama ticket.

    Signers include both supporters and opponents of Hillary Clinton. Opponents may think she would detract from the ticket; supporters may think she could use her time better in the Senate or elsewhere.

    Any comments before I publicize this?


    Parent

    Hillary has made it abundantly clear (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:38:34 PM EST
    she wants the VP spot.  I abhor any supporter who would not support her in this.

    Parent
    This (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by tek on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:08:44 PM EST
    is the current meme of the Obama people, usually followed by a whine about how they don't want the Clintons anywhere near the WH because it would be unfair to Obama.

    Parent
    Do Obama people want O/C ? (none / 0) (#109)
    by 1950democrat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:45:10 PM EST
    Whether or not Hillary wants VP, how many Obama people really want her to have it?

    Kennedy, Pelosi, Carter, and others are against it; they think she would detract from his ticket.

    Parent

    Well, they are wrong. (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:48:16 PM EST
    But your petition would help them make their case.  I can not not believe you would openly sponsor a petition against what Hillary is signaling she wants.

    Parent
    Detract, eh? (none / 0) (#114)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:51:08 PM EST
    well, honestly if outshine is detract then, yes  ;)

    I have to wonder if her camapigning for him is going to work. She'll still outshine him . . . . She did that yesterday when she laid out the issues as reason to support him. This whole thing is just so freakin' pathetic.

    Parent

    Last poll I saw had (none / 0) (#154)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:33:08 PM EST
    his supporters (not the party insiders) split 50/50.  Sorry, I don't remember which poll that was, but it was within the last few days.

    Parent
    When? (none / 0) (#44)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:45:12 PM EST
    I've never, ever heard that come from Hillary or her campaign.

    Lanny Davis started that web campaign against her wishes. He said so.

    Parent

    Feinstien is her most prominent surrogate. (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:48:15 PM EST
    She laid out the case today.  Wolfson and McCauleffe have given every indication she wants it. I can't imagine why anyone would doubt she wants it.  Her team is giving out the signals.

    Parent
    Absolutely, Hillary wants VP... (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Aqua Blue on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:57:03 PM EST
    She is strong enough to hold her own and do a good job for the country.   Obama needs her if he wants to accomplish what he says he wants for the country.   Hillary and Bill can get it done.

    And, the most important point is that it opens te door to the Presidency in 20016 for HILLARY.

    Parent

    2016 (none / 0) (#188)
    by 1950democrat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:06:54 PM EST
    In 2016 HIllary will be 68 years old. Bill may need another quadruple bypass heart surgery around 2020.


    Parent
    i also just saw that feinstein said that (none / 0) (#180)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:25:37 PM EST
    obama can't win without her supporters. that is a given. but they don't seem to see it that wa considering the comments of brazile and others.

    Parent
    I (none / 0) (#74)
    by tek on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:10:02 PM EST
    believe Obama people WANT Hillary to want the VP desperately so they can cling to their framing that she will do anything for power.

    Parent
    Wondering how it's abundantly clear? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:58:07 PM EST
    Not disagreeing necessarily but what do you see as proof?

    Parent
    Feinstein. (none / 0) (#69)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:07:32 PM EST
    Perhaps those that are making it (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by nycstray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:08:56 PM EST
    abundantely clear see the writing on the wall and know he needs her to win AND govern  ;)

    Parent
    Saw her but sorta uncomfortable (none / 0) (#86)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:18:40 PM EST
    to watch. I have seen her surrogates making the case but can't help feeling they are speaking for themselves rather than her. Or being good Dems. Just not totally buying it. Maybe because I don't see it as a good deal for her.

    Parent
    I'd bet it's because it is not (none / 0) (#96)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:27:30 PM EST
    what you want.  There's nothing but upside for Hill, and I would argue the Democrat's.  Her surrogates wouldn't be saying what they are saying if she didn't want it.

    Parent
    downsides to Obama/Clinton (none / 0) (#105)
    by 1950democrat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:40:58 PM EST
    I've seen Hillary herself quoted as saying she does not want it but would accept it to help Obama get elected in November, IF the party asked her to.

    I see a lot of downsides for her as VP. I'd hate to see the party and the candidates pressured into a combination ticket which neither candidate really wants, and which would be a source of friction and a waste of her ability for four or eight years (then she'd be 68 and past her prime to do her own thing).

    If a Pres Obama wants her help, she can help him better from the Senate than anywhere else.


    Parent

    She has never said she doesn't want it. (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:42:47 PM EST
    She said she wasn't persuing it, but would accept it if asked.  Honestly, when someone openly acknowledges they would take it, they want it.  You don't want it.  She does.  

    Parent
    How many Obama people really want O/C ? (none / 0) (#120)
    by 1950democrat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:10:44 PM EST
    Getting back to the point, how many Obama people REALLY want O/C?

    Do Obama people want it just as a 'unity ticket' for winning in November?

    Or do Obama people really want to see that team in the White House for 4-8 years?

    It doesn't matter who I support. This is a question for Obama people as to what they really want, and why.

    Parent

    Who cares who the Obama supporters want? (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:00:02 PM EST
    Excuse me, which voters does Obma want now?  he's already got his.  They are not going anywhere.  

    Parent
    time should smooth it all out (none / 0) (#166)
    by Shahryar on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:30:26 PM EST
    I became a strong Obama supporter over time so I guess I qualify as one of "them".

    I think the next month or so should help a lot of Hillary supporters to listen to Obama, free of the Hillary filter. You might be surprised to find you like him better than you thought you would.

    And in the next month Obama supporters will see Hillary Clinton as a valuable ally instead of an opponent.

    The VP decision should be made in a clear headed way, free from the emotion of the recent contests and I know that by early July Hillary Clinton will be an extremely reasonable choice for Obama and a choice that Obama supporters would embrace.

    Parent

    Please stop doing this. (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by echinopsia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:19:39 PM EST
    help a lot of Hillary supporters to listen to Obama, free of the Hillary filter. You might be surprised to find you like him better than you thought you would.

    It's not helping. It's insulting. And I think you're projecting.

    I don't think there are many, if any, Hillary supporters who see Obama through a "filter." We see him plainly and clearly. That's why we don't prefer him.

    If anyone's supporters are seeing the other candidate through a filter, it's Obama's. The Obama and media narrative about Hillary is almost entirely false - they do not see or describe her as she really is.

    Parent

    I agree there's an Obama filter...too! (none / 0) (#181)
    by Shahryar on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:29:11 PM EST
    I thought it was implied in what I said.

    Let's see how we feel in a month. I think we'll find we agree on a lot more than we agreed on Monday.

    Parent

    No. (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by echinopsia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:54:41 PM EST
    There is an Obama filter only.

    Believe me, we know all we need to know about him.

    We know his background, his bio, his speeches, his (lack of) serious credentials and experience, his (everchanging, depending on the audience) positions.

    What we need to see is something different from what we've seen so far - as in, respect and recognition for the issues of the constituencies of Hillary's coalition.

    Let him, and his followers, redeem him- and themselves by acting and talking like Democrats, not trashing but praising the Clintons and Bill's administration.

    Let him and his followers publicly praise the Clintons for their history of hard work for civil rights and other Democratic issues. Remove the taint of racism with which he and they tried to tarnish their legacy.

    Let him and them make a good faith effort (because this is something he can't match in his lifetime) to show that there is NO acceptable prejudice in the Democratic Party. Let him and them renounce and reject sexism as they renounce and reject racism.

    Until and unless he and his followers make an effort along these lines there is nothing that will change how I feel in a month, a year, or a decade.

    Parent

    The More I Listen To Obama And (5.00 / 3) (#192)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:15:30 PM EST
    his surrogates the less I like the idea of him becoming president. The more I see and hear about the NEW Democratic (Obama) Party the more I am convinced that it does not represent me or my values. So much so that I have become an Independent after decades of being a Democrat.  

    I spent over a year researching all the candidates and didn't decide to vote for Hillary until a week before my primary. Obama's "poison pill, Harry and Louise" right wing ad distorting the truth about UHC was the straw that broke the camel's back. Hillary doesn't have any thing to do with my assessment. Obama's position on issues I care about, the method his campaign took to to win the nomination, his lack of preparation for the actual job of being president and his character are the determining factors. So I don't think time will change much of anything.

    Parent

    Well Start Listening To McCain (none / 0) (#193)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:40:56 PM EST
    That will be a good antidote to cure you.

    Parent
    I Already Know I Won't Vote For McCain (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:18:27 PM EST
    I don't need reasons why I should not vote for him. The question remains whether or not I vote for Obama. The fact that Obama is not McCain is not sufficient reason for me to vote for him.


    Parent
    It Is Not That (none / 0) (#197)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:56:08 PM EST
    It is that anything to help that slug (McCain) get elected is against most of our principals. The only time I listened to Obama was the Wright speech and contrary to most here I was touched. And Hillary's last speech was amazing.  But, for me, most of the pandering BS talk by all pols is not for me.  I do not like to listen to any of them.  I prefer to read the stuff if there is a good reason to.

    Parent
    Voting For Obama Would Violate (none / 0) (#199)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 01:52:23 AM EST
    some of my principals also. There is no question that McCain could if Congress doesn't do its job be bad for the country. It is also true IMO that an unrestricted Obama could be harmful in other ways.

    Once again, for me this has nothing to do with Hillary. I have major concerns about Obama and the direction of the Democratic Party. I may be able to resolve these concerns before November or I may not. Obama needs to provide me with a whole lot of information on issues I care about if he wants my vote. Speeches without substance don't do a whole heck of a lot for me. I plan to wait and see what develops.

    Parent

    Loses with Clinton? (none / 0) (#158)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:51:35 PM EST
    In my mind, the best reason for Obama to ask Hillary to be his VP is that she will help them get elected.  Can you tell me why you think if he offers and she accepts (after careful thought & negotiation) that the ticket will lose?  

    I've read many comments from Hillary supporters saying they will only vote for Obama if she is on the ticket. True this is not scientific evidence, but it leads me to believe they should be able to pull off a win -- together.

    Your thoughts?

    Parent

    One piece of cheery news ... (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Inky on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:24:35 PM EST
    John Kerry is facing a genuinely progressive Democratic primary challenger, one Ed O'Reilly. Link

    I sheepishly admit that I voted enthusiastically (rather than while holding my nose) for Kerry in 2004, but after hearing him say that trying to pass UHC through Congress is a nonstarter and after finding out that he holds more defense industry stock than any other member of Congress, I'd love to see the Boston Brahman face a primary challenger who truly is committed to passing UHC, ending our wars, and curbing military spending.

    Or perhaps I'm just in a mood to feel hopeful.

    I signed up for O'Reilly's newsletter (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:35:21 PM EST
    I'm not sure he can really give Kerry a run for his money, but I'm happy to do what I can to make it so.


    Parent
    Roe v Wade (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by boredmpa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:28:25 PM EST
    This is actually a series of questions designed to come up with a response to the "Roe v Wade" concern trolls.  Please respond on one of these  areas if you have info/opinion:

    1. Likelihood of full/partial reversal of a major decision that would have strong public resistance (22% believe abortion should be illegal), politicize the court, and have significant legal repercussions.  I'm not familiar with SCOTUS history, but is that fairly rare?  And what could a partial reversal even look like?

    2. Feasibility of administrative and state legal resistance to any change in Roe vs Wade (Refusal of state funding for any support/assistance).  Legality of congressional or presidential defunding of enforcement and prosecution.

    3. Would public outrage in the internet/mass-media era allow it?  Given that the rich and the middle class would have access by leaving the country, the poor and the young would be highlighted for arbitrary unequal treatment.

    4. For the legal folks, given(?) that justices are umm difficult to categorize as "liberal" or "conservative," are often more invested in different theories, and are still looked down on after 2000(?), is it correct to assume a republican appointee would vote to overturn roe v wade?

    For the record, responses won't change my opinion or intended vote (which is based on political theory and democratic principles), but this came up with a friend that doesn't want to vote for Obama.

    I'll take a stab at this (5.00 / 3) (#161)
    by Dawn Davenport on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:07:02 PM EST
    1. A partial reversal of Roe would look like the ruling in Casey vs. Planned Parenthood, which already supercedes Roe, thanks to Obama's buddy and endorser. Casey was the greatest modification of Roe since Roe's inception--and was upheld by SCOTUS.

    2. Not sure what you're after here, but most everyone agrees that if Roe is overturned, it will be up to each state to decide whether abortion is legal and which restrictions apply (short of human life being declared at conception, which I doubt the Court would rule). So it's unlikely a state would be in the position of doing anything other than sanctioning or prohibiting abortion within its jurisdiction, and as we've seen, many states have made it increasingly difficult for abortion providers and women who seek abortions.

    3. It's already the case that poor women face hurdles to obtaining abortions, particularly in states where providers have been regulated to the hilt or harassed out of existence, and other than some effort to repeal the SD law that was overturned by voter referendum, I've yet to see any great outcry or rebellion by the public. If Roe is overturned and it's left to each state to decide, there will be state-by-state efforts to both ban it and keep it legal, but not much a grassroots effort can do outside of traditional lobbying, since it'll be up to each state legislature to decide.

    4. Not necessarily, although it's likely. A couple of the remaining pro-Roe justices were appointed by Republicans, and Sandra Day O'Connor (who supported Roe when she was on the bench) was appointed by Reagan. That said, abortion is likely the reason Bush appointed Alito and Roberts, but on the other hand, Obama has been fuzzy on the issue (declaring at a recent debate he hadn't decided whether life begins at conception, and initially supporting Roberts), and McCain might not be as abortion-centric with his choice of nominees as Bush was. Further, since the Dems in the Senate chose to not filibuster Alito or Roberts, I hold them nearly as responsible for those justices serving as I hold Bush.


    Parent
    thanks (none / 0) (#198)
    by boredmpa on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 01:32:43 AM EST
    thanks for responding, my brain had clearly forgotten a few things.

    2. Makes sense, and I should have been clearer I guess (my mind is rusty on the issue).  I was mainly looking for confirmation that it would be extremely unlikely for the court to cough legislate the beginning of human life.  However, many people seem to assume that the court would ban abortion.

    Anyway, I think the likely worst case is probably what you're talking about with specific states/areas not having access--possibly within a multi-state region.  Or they might have more restrictive notification laws or windows for access.

    3. I was mainly thinking about how a national ban might play out, which doesn't really seem plausible.  At a state level though, if the legislature or the voters passed limiting legislation it would be a hard fight to challenge it or provide funding and target it to low-income assistance to get folks out of the state.  Personally I should probably look at state-by-state polls.  sigh, gays and abortion on the ballot is a sure turnout winner :/

    Parent

    Avoiding Hillary as VP (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by zebedee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:08:20 PM EST
    If Obama doesn't want her as VP I thought iniitially he would have the big problem of upsetting her supporters by not offering it to her. Remembering how he managed to quash the MI and FL revotes without explicitly being against them, I think he would probably adopt similar tactics and I see this already starting via his surrogates. He'll drag his feet by coming up with all sorts of obstacles (vetting Bill's donors for example) or make her grovel to the point she doesn't want it or point to some poll (and you can always find a poll to make your point) that says the ticket is weaker with her on it.

    In any case, if she's not on the ticket he'll make sure it won't look like he's spurning her. And the media will agree. Somehow it will be her (or Bill's) fault yet again.

    This (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by tek on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:13:34 PM EST
    tactic won't give him a pass with Hillary people, maybe with his own followers.  And Hillary Dems are split whether they even want her on the ticket.  It won't help him get votes he would not have gotten otherwise.

    Parent
    lose lose (none / 0) (#191)
    by 1950democrat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:13:03 PM EST
    Yes, Obama's in a lose-lose situation on this. Some people think it's rude of him NOT to offer VP. Others think it's an insult TO offer it -- expecting the older, better qualified candidate to give up her own career in the Senate to iron his shirt for eight years.

    I'm just worried that Hillary might be noble enough to accept, sacrificing herself for 'party unity'.

    Maybe that's one reason she decided to start campaigning for him -- before he got panicky and offered it.

    Parent

    I've noticed it (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by Democratic Cat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:10:05 PM EST
    I noticed that DKos had front page posts in the last couple of days -- one making fun of McCain for having white hair and yellowed teeth, and another with him standing against a backdrop that had the word 'dentures' on it.

    These people are juvenile.

    i knew they were going there. (none / 0) (#140)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:50:14 PM EST
    instead of taking mccain out on his votes and policies, they are going have his teeth. oops, more under that very big bus. this is why i think that calling mccain names on here is wrong. it puts on the same level as some others i won't take the time to name. we object to name calling, so who are we to indulge in it. i hope that jerlayn agrees but that is her call.

    Parent
    i will repeat my answer, with (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by cy street on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:15:10 PM EST
    the same as before.  who is better than hillary?

    i back obama completely and fully.  this is his decision to make.  as a supporter, i ask the obvious; who is better than hillary?

    i ask this forum and beyond, who is better?

    no one in the democratic party so far as i can see.  in time, the possibility will hopefully take root in camp obama.  with moves like the ones clinton made in new york and dc, i am even more convinced.

    if obama's premise is coming together, then what is wrong with joining the better part of our family's past?

    I think I'm closer to the bone (none / 0) (#200)
    by Blogblah on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 02:53:02 AM EST
    I think I'm closer to the bone of the matter, but that the above certainly leads the way in my thinking.  I'm an Obama supporter.  My view is that Hillary is the correct choice for VP because there are no other candidates for that position worth considering compared to her.  Look at the lists of possible choices.  None of the other mentioned names, including Edwards and Richardson, brings as much to the table as Sen. Clinton -- even taking into account those Hillary supporters who refuse to vote for the ticket for whatever reasons (whether those reasons may be good or bad or indifferent).  All the other names fail for lacking "stature" or "gravitas" or whatever you want to call it when compared.  

    I want to speak to the question of her "downside", the baggage, the chance that Bill will pose a problem, that they might combine their negatives, and so forth.  Again, compare to the other names.  Joe Biden has a "plagiarism" problem, so he's out.  Kathleen Sibielius from Kansas bored the hell out of us.  Gov. Napolitano would become an even bigger target for the misogynists.  You can do it yourselves better than me.  The point is that all those other political figures have their own downsides, often even bigger "negatives" (admit it, Biden would be an obviously stupid choice despite all his good qualities).

    I've always been comfortable with Sen. Clinton.      

    They say that having Sen. Clinton on the ticket will fire up the GOP base.  With the war, the economy and McCain, I'm not so sure that's going to happen.  I think they are terminally moribund.

    For Obama to choose anyone else, they can't look second rate or spiteful or even manipulative.  Very few prominent individuals fit that bill.  Perhaps former vice president Al Gore?  It's a very small circle.  I think Sen. Clinton is the only one left.

    There's the stuff about would Sen. Obama look weak (more blah blah).  I considered that.  Think about Denver.  All her delegates and all his delegates voting for the two of them?  Party Unity on parade.  He's called himself "transformative" and he's called her the same.  

    You know, 86% of the country thinks its on the wrong track.  Sen. Obama will be seen as being unable to reach across any partisan divide if he can't reach across this one.  Sen. Clinton and her campaign and her supporters may pose problems of any number and description for Sen. Obama and his campaign, but I see Sen. Obama as having little choice.

    Parent

    Reason to vote (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by mmc9431 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:17:42 PM EST
    It's not up suuragates to reach out. Obama is the leader. He has to do this. He needs to give people a reason to want to vote for him. All I keep reading on the blogs is fear of Republican's and how bad the Clinton's are. That's not a winning campaign strategy to me. A lot of people are not impressed by rhetoric of change. After a few elections (2006 included) it might be time to add some meat to those bones. Unity sounds great but I haven't heard how he plans to achieve this goal. He needs to be specific.

    How long will it take for the Clintons to NOT (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:27:29 PM EST
    be the story or will they always be to avoid the substantive discussions?

    Parent
    The minute the Clintons aren't the story.. (none / 0) (#163)
    by Dawn Davenport on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:12:33 PM EST
    ...is when Obama has to run on his own strengths and platforms.

    Therefore, I'm inclined to believe that Obama WILL pick Hillary for v.p. ;-)

    Parent

    I went to the TX Democratic Convention (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by stxabuela on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:49:28 PM EST
    There was a valiant battle to kill the two-step primary process in favor of a 100% binding primary vote.  The motion was tabled in favor of a traveling dog-and-pony show headed by State Sen. Royce West.  The stated purpose is to get feedback on the primary-caucus hybrid from voters throughout the state.  Based upon the statewide input, a rules change can be presented at the 2010 convention to be held in Corpus Christi.  I think the real purpose is to stall, hoping that we forget how badly the process worked under the strain of a truly competitive primary.  

    I also got several depressing reports from delegates living in majority-Latino areas, saying that their less politically active friends are responding to Clinton's concession speech by saying they won't vote in November.  Not voting at all is not a "sour grapes" attitude.  I'm having a difficult time putting this into words--I guess I'd call it the Hispanic style of cognitive dissonance.  If a person holding a position of respect in the community, like a priest or a politician, tells us to vote a certain way, many of us (particularly those of us who are over 40) feel honor-bound to do as we have been told.  I've been in politics long enough to know that this sense of duty has been exploited by both priests and politicians.  I don't have a problem voting in a different manner than instructed, or just skipping the race.  Unfortunately, many of my peers feel so emotionally conflicted by this sense of honor that they find it easier to just stay home.  Here is how one of my friends explains her decision to stay home.  Hillary said, "Vote for Barack Obama."  She respects Hillary, so if she votes, she must vote for Obama.  Even if she casts a ballot without voting for Obama, she has shown disrespect for Hillary--behavior so unacceptable that not voting at all is the better alternative.  I know this sounds insane to most of you, but this is a serious problem for older Latinas.      

    Weird out there today. (5.00 / 4) (#138)
    by eleanora on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:46:57 PM EST
    I don't comment much at sites besides TL anymore, but read around a bit, and the Obama blogs are pretty schizophrenic today. Half the FP'ers and commenters are happily enjoying their sunshine and plotting to take on McCain, but half are still focused entirely on hating and disparaging Clinton. Maybe they're right and winning the nom is the same as the GE, but I seriously doubt McCain and the R's agree.

    The comment thread for Masslib's excellent MyDD diary on Clinton as VP is pretty typical. She and anna shane are doing yeoman's labor trying to get people to acknowledge that Clinton would be a smart pick, but most of the commenters are just. not. listening. Attack, attack, rinse, repeat.

    Desmoinesdem from DK posted a good diary too, "How to talk to non-supporters about Obama", and some of the commenters seem to really get it. I don't agree with everything in there, but he made some really excellent points. I hope the Obama supporters who need it are listening. We seem to be on a razor's edge right now.

    May I Suggest a Strategy to Combat (none / 0) (#162)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:07:54 PM EST
    The Bill-Hill Clinton hate?

    1st:  Either all out war on the blogs Obamabot style, or ignore blogs that tolerate the non-sense and write to same indicating Hillary supporters will not visit their cites until they get control of the hate-mongering.  Site visits count for advertising dollars.

    2nd:  Have a set of talkingpoints to dispute the main points being made to discredit each of the Clintons. Send mass petitions or large numbers of e-mails to MSNBC, NY Times, CNN, etc.  Numbers talk.  Reminds me of the line in Aaron Sorkin's movie, "The President," where his chief of staff (played to Michael Fox) says to the Prez in exasperation that the public is listening to the nay-saying pundits because no one else is doing the talking.  Is it possible that MSNBC's pro-Obama stance during the primaries has been driven, at least in part, by NBC's interest in the demographic he attracts for NBC audience & ad sales?  I noticed yesterday that MSNBC had only 1 million viewers in their choice demographic for coverage of Hillary's speech while CNN had 1.4 million.  

    3rd:  Combat the pundits by calling them on not having done their research (thanks, BTD) -- with specifics to back this up, put together montages of their non-stop criticisms, cite the Rasmussen study quoted above, and remind them how they are losing audience.  In the legal profession there are codes of ethics lawyers and judges must live by.  If anyone has any codes of ethics that jounralists are taught to live by (even if not required by law), and these pundits violate elements of these codes, let's call them out for violations of the codes, for covering issues of their own failings (misogeny) as well as politics without providing opposing points of view or pretending to provide same by claiming the pundit assigned to such role represents that viewpoint when (s)he does not.

    I think we need to do something to combat the biased, short-on-facts type of coverage that has been passing for TV journalism of late.  

    Can anyone assist here -- or am I being totally naive?

    Parent

    Cable news demos (5.00 / 3) (#175)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:10:35 PM EST
    I was looking at this the other day, and KO's viewership numbers have gone up the more he bashed Clinton, in 'the demo'.  It's just that his numbers were low to start with.  What he'll do with Clinton out of the race, I have no idea.

    MSM cares only about numbers of readers, users and viewers.  They really don't care about anything else.  They certainly don't care about their credibility.  With doctors and lawyers there's always the threat of getting thrown out of the profession (not that this happens often, but the fact that it could does influence how people act).  Also, they can get sued for lots of money when they mess up.  But there's no licensing body for journalists so they can't get thrown out, and they don't lose money for bias or even outright lies, with the exception of libel and slander.

    Sorry to sound so negative and downer-ish.  But they only thing I've come up with to do is just not watch.

    Parent

    personally i think ko will simply continue (none / 0) (#182)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:30:33 PM EST
    on his over the hill rants. he thinks it makes him look good. in the end he will come back to bite him. folks get tired of battling the world all day. they don't want to come home and hear him rant. sure when the rant was righteous, then good. that is no longer the case.

    Parent
    Are Journalism (none / 0) (#185)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:37:01 PM EST
    students not taught certain professional ethics -- even print journalists -- that are considered at least goals to strive for?  E.g., not going with any story unless there are two sources for each statement?  

    Parent
    I graduated with a BA in JRN in 2005 (5.00 / 4) (#190)
    by echinopsia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:25:24 PM EST
    and yes, we are taught ethics. At my school, which is renowned for its journalism program, it's a senior seminar - a required course.

    We are taught how to recognize and eliminate sexism, ageism, racism, etc., and the consequences of plagiarism and libel. We are taught about sourcing, on-and off the record interviews, and valid research.

    We are taught that journalism is a noble profession, and we are shown examples of how its purpose is not being served by modern-day "journalists."

    Sadly, by the time professional journalists reach the big time, they seem to have cast these lessons aside.

    Big Media is not about journalism. It's about money and market share.

    Parent

    Agreed; is there (none / 0) (#194)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:06:13 PM EST
    a source I could refer to for such ethics?, i.e., a book or other monograph? A list of readings??

    BTW, what journalism school -- if you're willing to say?

    Parent

    My college was (none / 0) (#202)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:18:12 AM EST
    Metro State

    In my senior ethics seminar we didn't use a textbook - just handouts and films (Shattered Glass, for example). My professor preferred to teach from current events - and there are plenty of good examples of bad journalistic ethics out there.

    Parent

    I don't know who (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by pie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:54:40 PM EST
    Joe Gandleman is, but I would bet that he and others like him really don't believe most of what they're claiming, including the idea that anyone thinks she's entitled to any position.  She's worked for everything she has ever attained and worked hard (unlike other politicians who shall remain nameless).  If people can't acknowledge her work ethic after this primary, they haven't been paying attention.

    So what do you really mean, Joe?

    Be honest for once.

    How/Why Hillary Lost. (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Fabian on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:52:25 PM EST
    Just stopped by the orange to see what was up.  Flipped idly through the diaries when I noticed something interesting on the FP side.

    How/Why Hillary Lost.

    At least three FP diaries using that meme.  Must have been the assignment du jour.  I will mentally bookmark the meme for November, in case there's a need for a compare/contrast then.

    I'm not really interested in "How Hillary Lost." as in "How Presumtive Nominee Won.".  After all, it's much more significant how the Presumptive Nominee won the Primary than how the Other Candidates lost the same race.  Why not a whole series on How XXXXX Lost if studying losing campaigns is so enlightening?

    No.  Examining the winning campaign is more important because now is the time to decide which strategies are winners in the GE and which are losers.  (It appears that some bloggers think that constantly attacking McCain on everything including the color of his teeth is a winning strategy.)

    There's also the matter of certain key demographics.....

    I'm trying to avoid those retrospective (none / 0) (#184)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:34:01 PM EST
    looks at the Clinton campaign, which are ubiquitous today, including NYT.  Plus Penn--its the money, he says.

    Parent
    More disUnity at my old politics discussion site (1.00 / 1) (#146)
    by zyx on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:03:00 PM EST
    Guys snickering over this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Ky1_pyn6Q

    Oatmeal hits computer screen.

    With many friends like these, Obama WILL lose.

    I was just wondering this morning what the next (5.00 / 4) (#159)
    by FemB4dem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:55:28 PM EST
    insult would be from the Obama boys.  Now I know.  The funny thing is, I believe the Obama minions do these more as attempted innoculation than anything else.  Karl Rove would be so proud.

    The fact is, Mr. "Soaring Rhetoric" is being laughed at these days.  His history will say "this is the day the oceans stopped rising and the earth began to heal" remark in his "victory" speech was so over the top I was stunned he could give it with a straight face and not start giggling.

    When "soaring rhetoric" is your selling point, it's never long before the counter attack is well look who else had soaring rhetoric -- Huey Long, Mussolini, and yes, Hitler.  Is it fair?  No.  But politics ain't beanbag.  And when you've got nothing but rhetoric, when your resume is so thin it makes carbon paper* look strong in comparison, you are vulnerable to just such attacks.

    So nice try guys.  But good luck with this nonsense when the 527s come to town.  Comparisons to Hilter will seem about as nasty as a mewling kitten.

    * Notice to Obama younglings -- carbon paper was very thin tissue paper used in the days before computers and copy machines.  I know these historic references often fly over your heads.

    Parent

    btd...I know Hillary suspended her (none / 0) (#1)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:33:10 PM EST
    campaign...did she hold onto her delegates?

    I've asked this at least 3 times, (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:02:27 PM EST
    but no response from the big fellow.  I'd really like to know if delegates pledged to Clinton are bound by their state party rules as to the first ballot.  

    Parent
    Do you know how much power (none / 0) (#11)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:07:18 PM EST
    the state party has over its delegates? Nada.

    Suppose a delegate goes to the national convention and breaks the rules. What is the state party going to do? Sue the delegate?

    Parent

    True. But that wasn't really my question. (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:12:05 PM EST
    it is fascinating (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:13:36 PM EST
    how anti-democratic the whole pledge del system is.

    It's not federal, it's not one man one vote. It's not even proportional.  It doesn't even reflect congresional districts or the techniques of counting that are used in the real thing.

    I guess noone played it out as a system before and tested it's logical and quasi-moral limits (that there are no pledges really.

    Parent

    One PERSON one vote (5.00 / 0) (#195)
    by splashy on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:12:43 PM EST
    Sorry, I just am tired of seeing "man" used to represent women when the word "person" or "human" or  "humanity" or "people" will work just as well and convey a more accurate description.

    It's just my way of fighting misogyny. Carry on.

    Parent

    I am sure you would be researching a way (none / 0) (#27)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:29:47 PM EST
    around that if obama's delegates started flipping.  And really I am surprised at your testy response...


    Parent
    I saw a comment on another site (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:42:44 PM EST
    late yesterday that told of the person having attending the Texas convention yesterday and met a couple of Obama supporters who share they were posing as Clinton supporters to get placed in the delegation.

    She did keep her delegates, and Obama's campaign is still directing their people to game the process.

    Parent

    Java....why am I not surprised? It is a very (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:47:27 PM EST
    sad day for America when the only way someone can get ahead is to game the system.  For the life of me, based on the information available, if you have a conscience and care about integrity, I don't know how you could vote for obama.

    Parent
    Right there with you (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:51:17 PM EST
    I can't and I won't.  Then, I've never been one to just shrug my shoulders and play with the team that cheated.


    Parent
    What is happening here? (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by standingup on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:49:42 PM EST
    I understand the disappointment, hurt and anger over the primary.  But I am seeing more and more comments where Clinton supporters are taking out there anger on others for no reason, some of them obviously mistaking others for the enemy (Obama supporters).      

    The primary has come to an end.  Jeralyn has laid out the guidelines for continued participation here.  Can I suggest that it may be helpful to take a break for a day or two from posting if it is becoming to difficult to keep the tone civil and respect the rules.  

    Parent

    Interestingly, I've noticed (5.00 / 5) (#118)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:03:08 PM EST
    anger on the part of some Obama supporters. It seemed odd at first, given that their chosen candidate is the nominee.

     I suspect that, despite repeated warnings from some of the Hillary supporters that they had problems supporting Obama for various reasons(all having to do with Obama himself), that some Obama supporters still believed that magic would happen when Clinton conceded and "unity" would arrive out of nowhere. Thus the anger, since their dreams didn't come true.

    Parent

    True (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by standingup on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:10:20 PM EST
    CDS still runs rampant and there are the usual agitators too.  I assume Jeralyn will deal with them the same as she always has in the past.  But they will also have a no shortage of other sites where there views are welcomed and accepted.

     

    Parent

    I think the problem is unrealistic (5.00 / 4) (#123)
    by MarkL on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:13:29 PM EST
    expectations from the new people who are Obama supporters.
    A lot of these new people seem quite ignorant, and their posts are very insulting---as if the people here didn't know a thing about Obama.
    It will take some time to make an adjustment.
    For my part, I'm comfortable telling Obama supporters what doesn't work.. which is most of the tactics they are trying.
    The problem is that most of the Obama people REALLY loathe Clinton, so when they try to make nice, they just can't pull it off.
    Well, I make no bones about detesting Obama.
    That does not mean there's no chance I'll vote for him.. but it sure won't be because I like him!


    Parent
    andgarden (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by standingup on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:11:00 PM EST
    is hardly a new poster and has clearly supported Clinton throughout the primaries.  Yesterday there were some very harsh comments directed toward Dalton who could not be a better example of what we would like to see in Obama supporters.  And there are others that I won't bother listing here.  

    Jeralyn has assured us new commenters violating the rules will not be tolerated.  She was also clear here, "If you want to continue to dwell on the primaries, or rant against Obama, there will be sites you are more comfortable at."  

    And to be honest, I think she will be reasonable in allowing for a little bit of an adjustment period but we have to make the attempt to adjust and I think some are not even close.  If I am noticing it and it is bothering me, I imagine others might be seeing the same.    

    Parent

    I am surprised that you're making assumptions (none / 0) (#32)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:36:45 PM EST
    about me.

    Parent
    Thanks for trying the flip technique, but I am (none / 0) (#45)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:45:30 PM EST
    not buying into it today thanks.  If I am wrong aobut that, I will live, and so will you.  

    Parent
    Her (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by tek on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:11:14 PM EST
    campaign manager wrote me that she suspended not conceded and, yes, she still has her delegates until the convention.

    Parent
    No She Didn't Release Them (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by talex on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:20:13 PM EST
    First of all you didn't hear her say she would yesterday.

    Secondly we haven't read that she did anywhere and if she did it would be news.

    And thirdly if she did you know Obama would be shouting it from the rooftops.

    Right now Clinton is in negotiations with BO. those delegates are her leverage. They also represent the Presidency should Obama implode before August or the GOP guts him enough for the Party elders to have second thoughts on who should be the nominee. Nothing is a done deal until the votes are officially cast at the convention.

    My guess is that she holds on to them until August and only gives them up if she gets something really big for them.

    Parent

    Yes - I believe so. (none / 0) (#3)
    by nulee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:46:27 PM EST
    I sure hope she did. (none / 0) (#9)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:05:42 PM EST
    Pretty sure that's part of the reason for (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by Democratic Cat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:06:32 PM EST
    suspending rather than conceding. If nothing else, she'll get her delegates voting for her on the first role call. I think that's pretty important for her -- I know it is for me.

    Parent
    Empathy = "Wimpy" (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:24:35 PM EST
    Just to clarify, for those in the thrall of popular culture derived stereotypes, by "empathy' I refer to the visceral recognition that we all participate in a system much larger than any of our personal "agendas" and that what befalls one today could befall another tommorrow and having that recognition inform your actions. NOT saying "you poor dear" to the world and offering it milk and cookies.

    Again, to quote Kredwyn quoting well (5.00 / 8) (#30)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:35:49 PM EST
    "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people."

    While some feminists engage in a form of invitational (Rogerianesque) rhetoric, not all feminists agree that a "touchy feely" form of empathy is the way to go.

    Jondee, you apparently are unaware that, as in all things, women who are feminists are not all of one mind about how to achieve that that goal -- as ever, agreement on that goal and definition (even if you do not, but your question suggests you are not a feminist, so hardly one to define us) does not mean agreement on strategy and tactics to achieve it.  

    You are, I think, thinking of social feminists.  There are many other sorts of us.  See, for a good historical read on evolution of different subgroups, strategies, and tactics, Nancy Cott's The Grounding of Modern Feminism.

    Parent

    radical notion that women are people (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by noholib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:39:58 PM EST
    Cream City,
    I've forgotten ... who said this?
    Thanks.

    Parent
    Feminist scholar and prof (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:26:29 PM EST
    Cheris Kramarae, sources tell me.  I didn't know that 'til looking it up for you!  But I do know some of her works, close to my research area (and close to me now on my bookshelf:-), and she has a  marvelous mind . . . and wicked wit.:-)

    Parent
    radical ideas about women and men (4.00 / 3) (#100)
    by noholib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:32:33 PM EST
    Thanks.  
    Wikipedia says both these sayings are attributed to her:
    • Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.
    • Perhaps a talkative woman is one who does talk as much as a man.


    Parent
    Btw, for some Sunday afternoon fun (5.00 / 10) (#108)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:43:46 PM EST
    allow me to give you some more definitions I enjoy  (there are many more):

    I became a feminist as an alternative to becoming a masochist.  Sally Kempton, journalist

    I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute. Rebecca West, 1913

    And then there is this world-famous definition of women's rights, from the UN Beijing conference:

    Human rights are women's rights, and women's rights are human rights. -- Hillary Rodham Clinton  

    Full transcript of that famous speech is here -- and worth reading regularly to remind us of so much . . . including so much lost this week by this country and by the world of women who do respect her for it still, who do hear her voice, and who no longer are invisible because of her.  I am seeing stories of Africa exulting in our presumptive nominee.  I am watching to see what in the world the women of the world must think of what this country is doing.

    Parent

    Rebecca West's (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:36:54 PM EST
    is one of my favorite quotes ever.  

    Parent
    My fave (5.00 / 3) (#189)
    by echinopsia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:14:57 PM EST

    No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her sex. ~ Susan B. Anthony.

    Parent
    Obviously they're not (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:49:50 PM EST
    all of one mind. But, tell me, since they aren't, how can you be sure Im not in sympathy (in an un-wimpy way of course)?

    Parent
    I don't know. That's why (none / 0) (#98)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:29:41 PM EST
    as you will see from closer reading, I was careful to use "apparently," "suggests," etc.  What suggests it to me is your 'tude in this thread.  Or, it could be that you share in the common dissension between social feminists, radical feminists, etc.  I don't know, but you sure are welcome to clarify for us.  Cheers.

    Parent
    Which is very nice (none / 0) (#141)
    by Nadai on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:51:59 PM EST
    and the world would be a better place if everyone had this sort of empathy, but it is not feminism.  Feminism, as the name rather implies, has to do with the rights of women qua women.

    Parent
    Umbrage (none / 0) (#63)
    by roadburdened on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:57:06 PM EST
    Michael Kingsley in the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/opinion/08kinsley.html

    "The final death blow, however, was self-administered. The theme of this campaign has been umbrage. The candidates took turns pretending to be offended by something another candidate had said -- or the other candidate's failure to denounce what some third party had said."

    I don't think this lets off certain people in the media, but he has a point. I think Slate wrote about this previously. The umbrage battle between Clinton and Obama helped make the long primary season hilarious and infuriating. If there is a dream ticket, McCain is going to feel like he got hit by a bus full of kids who never got a red bicycle for Christmas.


    Mathematics Question (none / 0) (#90)
    by karen for Clinton on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:20:54 PM EST
    There were 18 million people approximately who voted for obama, and he raised $300+ million, or somewhere about those figures, right?

    Is that within the norm?  What is the average voter to donation amount?  I looked for statistic websites on this to no avail.

    It's just his $25 donation remarks, which I know are deceptive, that repeatedly nag at me.

    Maybe I'm just being overly curious.

    Thanks in advance for answers, if any.

    Start here (none / 0) (#104)
    by suisser on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:37:40 PM EST
    Open Secrets.
    It doesn't answer all my questions about his money but it's a start
    LINK

    Parent
    thanks (none / 0) (#133)
    by karen for Clinton on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:41:25 PM EST
    WHERE THE SUPERDELEGATES FOR EACH (none / 0) (#115)
    by TomLincoln on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:55:09 PM EST
    come from as posted at Democratic Convention Watch: http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/02/superdelegates-by-position.html

    URL's must be in html format or they (none / 0) (#121)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:12:13 PM EST
    skew the site and the comment will be deleted.

    Please use the link button at the top of your comment box to insert a link. Preview it first.

    Thanks.

    Change (none / 0) (#124)
    by jarober on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:17:39 PM EST
    Ah yes change we can believe in.  Before the Obama folks take it down, get a load of the swell people supporting your candidate:


    Furthermore, Senator Obama will take a much more rational approach in the Middle East.  No longer will that zionist entity, whose name I hate to even write be able to oppress our Palestinian brothers and sisters with impunity.  If anyone can stop the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands, I know it is Barack Obama!

    Democrats must be so proud of this kind of change.  

    Sadly they are delusioned (5.00 / 0) (#139)
    by tree on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:49:21 PM EST
    Obama's already thrown the Palestinians under the bus months ago.


    Parent
    Jemaah Islamiyah? (none / 0) (#130)
    by roadburdened on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:36:24 PM EST
    That's such a ridiculous parody. I'm guessing Republicans.

    Parent
    Doubt the GOP (none / 0) (#151)
    by RalphB on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:22:44 PM EST
    I'm pretty sure this has been in the UK press before.

    Parent
    I can't find a link (none / 0) (#164)
    by roadburdened on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:24:41 PM EST
    I still don't buy it. Is Jemaah Islamiyah setting up a field office in Manhattan (an extension of their Southeast Asian state)? I think this Fatima is the imaginary creation of a teenager or a Republican playing on an old stereotype (i.e., Obama is a Muslim). If he is a supporter, he should take a look at the interviews Obama has given about Israel.

    What's next? Maybe Mark Penn is putting together an assassination plot. No wait: McCain is a closet sadist because of his years of suffering at the hands of  the North Vietnamese, and secret prisons fulfill his gratification. The hilarity continues.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#172)
    by RalphB on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:54:48 PM EST
    Who knows.  I just have a vague memory of this but didn't pay close enough attention since it has no effect for me.


    Parent
    Ouch! (none / 0) (#148)
    by RalphB on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:07:33 PM EST
    I wish such change was possible.... (none / 0) (#165)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:27:07 PM EST
    but Obama will keep Israel armed to the teeth like a good machine operator.  

    Peace has never been on the Obama/McCain agenda, the elctorate apparently has little interest in it.

    Parent

    Hoops for BTD (none / 0) (#126)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:31:43 PM EST
    I had the Lakers losing game 1 to the Celtics, just thought the adrenaline and crowd and home court would get the Green a win, and it did.  Now I have the Lakers winning four straight, so here we go.  Tonight, look for the Lakes to get MUCH more physical, since it looks like the NBA zebras (least consistent officials in pro sports) are going to let it go.  But, hey, this is the NBA, the home team always seems to win, so they could easily go down 0-2, but I just can't see it.  

    Odom, IMO, will have a monster game tonight.

    As a practical matter... (none / 0) (#147)
    by thinkingfella on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:03:38 PM EST
    I don't see Clinton being VP. She said Obama was not qualified. As a practical matter you can't have a VP who has publicly stated the Presidential nominee is unqualified.

    Also the Clintons are very charismatic, as they should be, and has served them well (and us) over the years. A good VP should not be so charismatic as to potentially overshadow the nominee. You can't find a President in the past 50 years who had a VP that even came close in charisma.

    Finally, Clinton would be under utilized as a VP. She would be unlikely to wield much in the way of real power, and in my opinion can serve her country much better by becoming a force to be reckoned with in the senate. And of course, if Obama stumbles, she will be ready to take on McCain in 2012.

    HAHAHA! (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by pie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:22:05 PM EST
    She said Obama was not qualified.

    I'll bet you didn't do too well in reading and/or listening comprehension.

    Parent

    You'll probably never see this... (none / 0) (#204)
    by thinkingfella on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 05:18:26 PM EST
    and if you do, you probably won't reply.

    Actually I got a perfect score on reading comprehension on the SAT and ACT, so your insult was a) wrong, and b) uncalled for.

    I don't understand why it is so hard for people here to respond in a polite manner.

    Anyways, I was using my poor reading comprehension, and I read a statement by Howard Wolfson, who said he was speaking for Clinton:

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/TheNote/story?id=4422982&page=1

    "We continue to believe," said Wolfson, "and more importantly others continue to believe, that Sen. Obama has not passed that key commander-in-chief test at this point."

    Again, I'll repeat, you can't select a VP who said you were unqualified to be President only 90 days ago. As a political matter it's just not tenable. Sorry, but it doesn't automatically make it a good idea just because you say so.


    Parent

    Obama will lose this election (none / 0) (#153)
    by ajain on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:32:28 PM EST
    I predict that he will lose.

    Despite having everything in his favour, I believe he is flawed (his inexperience is a problem for a war-time election), plus the bloviating media (I think this is not going to do him that much good, especially since they are pressuring him to not pick Hillary Clinton).

    But lets hope I am wrong.

    If he gets elected he, in my opinion, will owe a great deal to Hillary Clinton. If he loses, she will be blamed.

    In any case, Dems will have a good majorities in the House and the Senate, and Hillary Clinton will wield a lot of power in the Senate.

    One of my heroes... (none / 0) (#168)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:34:40 PM EST
    got busted.  Done in by a band-aid of all things.

    This one goes out to the Bankrobber.

    AP's Don Bauder, TV writer, (none / 0) (#170)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:48:36 PM EST
    on campaign coverage, including who will they talk about now that Clinton has suspended her campaign?

    AP

    Interesting. (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Fabian on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:02:35 PM EST
    More interesting than I thought it would be.

    Of course, the real question is:

    Now that Clinton is mostly gone, who will they pick on in her stead?

    Upbeat stories about candidates aren't going to fit the bill.  My guess is that without Clinton versus Obama to write about, the press will swing first to The Issues.  The Economy, The War, Global Warming, Gas Prices, Health Care - and the press will start wanting to know what the candidates plan on doing about them.

    That will get the audiences and fill the time until the 527s start up or other juicy gossip pops up.  And once the press has a scandal to cover, then we'll see who the Media Darling is then.

    Parent

    I thought it was a pretty good analysis. (none / 0) (#183)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:32:01 PM EST
    Although some of the people quoted seemed a bit late in their criticism of the media's treatment of Clinton.

    BTW, Huff Post has a link up about the guy who did the Dukasis/Horton ad; apparently he's working on matrial on Obama now.  

    Parent

    The Blame Game (none / 0) (#186)
    by WakeLtd on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:48:51 PM EST
    There are already some narratives developing among pundits & commenters about "who to blame"  should Barack Obama lose his Presidential bid to John McCain. As you may guess, for some, it will be "round up the usual suspects", in this case: Bill & Hillary Clinton. However,  these facts must be kept in mind:

    1. The Obama campaign at this point enjoys a tremendous financial advantage.

    2. Senator Obama is the presumptive nominee two- months BEFORE his party's national convention.

    3. Senator Obama now has the endorsements of all his major party rivals & the support of the party leadership.

    4. Senator Obama now has 5 months to lay his case before the voters, irregardless of the preferences these voters had in the primaries.

    5. The candidates must do the "wooing" of voters. Not the rivals they defeated. These individuals can serve as surrogates. But, it is the candidates themselves who must do the heavy-lifting.

    Should Obama lose in November, which I think is unlikely,  any attempt to place blame on a former rival - even if her name is Clinton - will be irresponsible. If one is prepared to accept credit for success, one must also be prepared to accept blame for failure.

    Wisdom (none / 0) (#203)
    by dwoodard on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 01:45:17 PM EST
    I think I will put my trust in Obama's wisdom, not yours, if you don't mind.  Given that the burden is on his shoulders to defeat John McCain and prevent a third Bush term, I think we all need to give him our support and the space he needs to use his best judgment in selecting a running mate.  His instincts and choices have proven remarkably successful so far.  To all the frustrated Clinton supporters who want to continue the primary contest into the VP sweepstakes, please turn the page and let the presumptive nominee make his choice without your prejudices about who he should select.