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A New Version Of The Malign Acceptance of Sexism

Courtesy of Al Hunt:

[S]ome Clintonistas persist in the whiny complaint that it was all about sexism. . . . Clinton herself complained of the "deeply offensive" sexual discrimination she faced particularly in the media . . .

Here's my question, is discussing the pervasive sexism in the Media now whining? Really? You sure you want to put it that way Al Hunt?

This is the "it's only sexism" version of the malign acceptance of sexism. I wonder if it too is acceptable. Sadly, it probably is.

Speaking for me only

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    Kudos (5.00 / 11) (#1)
    by No Blood for Hubris on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:52:05 AM EST
    If this party doesn't shatter into a million pieces, it will be because of the influential intelligence of people like you, who actually get it.

    Al Hunt (5.00 / 12) (#2)
    by lefty lawyer on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:53:38 AM EST
    please meet the mirror.  Mirror, Mr. Hunt.

    We have met the sexist enemy, and he is you, Mr. Hunt.

    "My daughter loved Sex and the City, and women are great and blah blah blah whiny women blah blah blah."

    That's some deep analysis.  I really, really hope the Obama campaign does better than this.  Winners of primary campaigns (at least those who want to win general elections) have to meet the vanquished foe way more than halfway.  Obama can't win without a strong showing among Clinton voters.  Those voters don't want to hear about the strategic mistakes of their candidate (however true such stories are), they want to feel like Obama gets their issues and hears their concerns.

    Doesn't Al Hunt, (5.00 / 4) (#158)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:34:00 AM EST
    with his snotty dismissal of the concerns of Hillary supporters about sexism, sound like every woman's first husband? To coin a phrase.

    Parent
    Pundits like (5.00 / 17) (#3)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:53:40 AM EST
    Al Hunt don't seem to understand the concept of backfiring.

    Yes, he can say that there was no sexism, and that complaints about it are only "whining". But it's funny how the public can in general see through through pundit bias.

    The real effect of his comments is simply to make those who already agree with him -- Obama supporters -- feel more convinced of their righteousness (one of their more attractive traits, of course), but to make any independent or opposed person lose respect for his opinion.

    And of course his quoting the Pew Center regarding media bias only further underscores both his and the Pew Center's lack of credibility (though one wonders how the Pew Center might fail in any way in objectivity -- aren't they basically academics, and aren't academics unfailingly fair and objective in their assessments?)

    I'm sure that the public at large is going to buy the claim of the Pew Center's report that there was no bias for Obama or against Hillary. Who are they going to believe, a bunch of pointy head quasi-academics, or their own eyes?

    A recent article by Al Hunt writing on the (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:56:25 AM EST
    illness of Ted Kennedy was so transparent in his adulation of all things Jack Kennedy and the mantle bestowed on Obama that I knew he was no longer credible. Years ago when he wrote for the Wall Street Journal, I believed he was the only voice of sanity over there.  No more!


    Parent
    The fool Al Hunt is confusing (5.00 / 5) (#212)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:21:05 AM EST
    two different measures here.  He cites a study measuring positive vs. negative -- and it (I went to the link) defines negative coverage as, say, coverage of the Rev. Wright contretemps.  

    In sum, that study does not assess sexism at all.  But Hunt then confuses the two.  That entirely ignores how much of the entirety of negative coverage of Clinton was sexist -- as compared to, say, negative coverage of her stance on issues.

    So his post is foolish and useless, which puts it right up there with the illogical crap that passes as journalism almost everywhere in media already.

    Jeesh, I wish these people would take logic courses and statistical courses and learn how to read results.

    Parent

    Uck. (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:54:39 AM EST
    I read the article.  He declared the fight for gender equality over.  Time to turn the page and move one.

    Whine appears to be the current theme. (5.00 / 29) (#5)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:56:02 AM EST
    Writing only for myself . . .
    It appears as if the daily whiffle ball thrown by Obama apologists is now & will be for some time the accusation of whining.  It is a common complaint of misogynist men that women, in general, whine & cry & pout during arguments & serious discussions.  The low information trolls who cut & paste here at TL have been on the whine theme for about a week.  So now, apparently, it's on the Obama-fax sent to all their media thugs.

    This theme is also related to the sore winner concept, which is a constant from the trolls here & in the comments sections of the various "news" sites that I sometimes read.  The sore winner gig began back in 2000 with the Bu$hInc gang.  It results from the internalized knowledge that your team won by cheating.  It is tough to acknowledge that you & your colleagues are just plain thugs, so the most effective method to elevate your own puny ego is to demean the opponent--allow yourself to pretend that they grovel & "whine" in the face of your own superior ability to cheat.  That's because the opponent "deserved" to lose.

    So much for my semi-professional, internet-based, remote psychoanalysis of the Obama-nation.

    Wow! (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:05:00 AM EST
    That's about as dead on as you can get.

    Well-played.

    Parent

    Well, there's more. (5.00 / 16) (#16)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:17:59 AM EST
    When dealing with the "bellowing," angry, dominant male figure, children also "whine."

    These things are related & connected by the need for verbally ineffective people (rhetorically challenged) to elevate themselves by demeaning others. Rather than attempting to promote the weak or wrong or untrue debating points for their not-so-useful concepts, its more successful to use slams & put-downs of the opponent--who then becomes an "enemy."  Big Tent touched on this a few weeks ago with a comment about the "shirts & skins" mentality of the primary contests.  [And, if you remember the playground mentality of these folks, it's not possible for the females to be "skins."]  He also had some good ground on the "triumphalism," and looking up the word "triumph" will explain a great deal of the lame stream media comments on Sen. Obama's winning strategies.

    So, we see an on-going effort to belittle the losers of the contest because there is no way to effectively elevate the winner's own status since the win resulted from simple cheating.

    Bu$h-bot, meet our Democratic Party version.

    Parent

    It is indeed a Bushian tactic... (5.00 / 9) (#22)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:24:21 AM EST
    like calling people nicknames, or farting during a conversation. Demeaning and diminutizing one's opponent is what bullies like the media and the Obamans do.

    I am really enjoying your analysis on this. Thank you.

    Parent

    I have noticed that when Obama (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:01:04 AM EST
    is seen as inexperienced his minions immediately change the subject to the person making the accusation.  For example, Clinton didn't have experience, she gave teas and lied about Tuzla.  Now with McCain, it is "he's so old"  Right from the GOP playbook.

    Parent
    Not McCain (2.33 / 3) (#92)
    by 1jane on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:42:19 AM EST
    We cannot underestimate how distasteful the Republican Party is to the general public, something like 80% of Americans are unhappy with the direction of the country. The massive sexism spewed by the Republicans in their policy and platform has gone unchallenged for too long. Now is the time to push back on McCain's attempts to portray himself as different from Bush even while he is Bush's most steadfast supporter to stay in Iraq for years and years. His bomb, bomb, bomb Iran is just one example of McCain's own errors. It is he who will be responsible for his own loss and it is his opponnent that has the stong anti-Washington message.

    Parent
    How (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:48:00 AM EST
    is this a response to wurman's comment?  And what's more, what credibility is the Democratic Party going to have if they want to confront the Republicans about sexism?  Not that I think they'll bother, of course, but after this primary season, it's close to a pot, kettle situation.

    Parent
    Political Sensitivity Training (4.00 / 2) (#109)
    by 1jane on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:59:36 AM EST
    began back in February by the RNC when they commissioned polling and focus groups to determine the boundaries of attacking a female or AA candidate. McCain has been instructed to charge back at any insinuation or accussation of sexism or racism. He's been instructed not to allow the Republican Party to be "macacaed." The Republican sratagists are very aware that the politically correct police will be out in force and their standards will be very narrow. McCain is forced to be sensitive to the tone of his opponent and stick to the substance of the discussion because he will be running against an "historical first."

    Parent
    Well, good (5.00 / 5) (#115)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:03:40 AM EST
    Even if his motives are purely self-interested, how is it a bad thing for McCain to have to watch what he says?

    Parent
    Too bad Obama (5.00 / 5) (#147)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:25:08 AM EST
    didn't take that training.

    Parent
    So the kind of sexism and misogyny that I need (5.00 / 6) (#162)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:38:17 AM EST
    to worry about is the GOP covered up variety?  It is much worse than the Democratic Primary variety that is in my face?

    Parent
    It Is A Shame That The Democratic (5.00 / 9) (#174)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:43:55 AM EST
    did not chose to take sensitvity training. The politically correct police within the Democratic Party failed big time to stand up for women and continue to fail each and every time they allow their Democratic women voters to be described as whiney and tactically accept the sexism that went on before, during and after the primary.

    Attempting to divert the conversation to the Republicans are worse will not do anything to correct the existing promblems within the Democratic Party. I for one do not want the very real problem to be kicked under the rug.

    Parent

    Please check topic before trolling (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by cymro on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:02:41 AM EST
    I have recenlty spoken to a number (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:05:50 AM EST
    of people who were so disappointed in the "way" Hillary lost that they will either not vote, or vote for McCain. And these were young men and women.  The GOP is not stupid, they will have air brushed McCain, so that people who don't pay much attention to politics will buy the media hype on him in the same way the young bought the hype on Obama.

    Parent
    the problem for Obama is (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:09:34 AM EST
    McCain is as much of a known quantity as you will ever find.  not much selling will be needed and the flip side of that is that the Obama campaign will have a very hard time making people see McCain as "Bushs 3rd" of any of the other stuff they will try.  
    the fact is the public knows McCain far better than they know Obama.


    Parent
    He better be careful with the 3rd term idea (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:19:43 AM EST
    One of Mccain's soft points is that McCain is suspect among conservatives.  Tabg him with bush and he might just get extra votes.

    Bush would proabably like to see Mccain win too just to avoid a conviction or investigation of himself.

    Parent

    You nailed it... (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:22:33 AM EST
    Bush would proabably like to see Mccain win too just to avoid a conviction or investigation of himself.

    I believe that is the ONLY reason Bush is supporting McCain.

    Parent

    I wonder how dependable (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:48:40 AM EST
    that reasoning is.  if McCain really wanted to "bring the country together" can you think of a better way?
    he is going to have a heavily democratic congress.
    in fact, THAT is the good news of  this election.
    we should be excited about the fact that Obama is going to bring out millions of new voters.  we are going to see something of a tsunami (to use an overused term) this year.
    I personally do not think Obama will win but I think a veto proof senate majority is not out of the realm of possibility.
    progress is made by steps.  this year will be a big step.

    Parent
    Not about McCain... (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:18:47 AM EST
    As far as I can tell, sexism does not recognise party affiliation.

    Parent
    It's practically Ashcroftian (5.00 / 7) (#49)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:51:05 AM EST
    in its attempt to use linguistic markers to shift the discussion back to the margins.

    Next up, we'll be back to the "hysterical railings" frame.

    Then what, Mr. Lakoff?

    Parent

    There may be a devolution of terms. (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:06:01 AM EST
    The lame stream media seem to take their cues, now, from the commenters & posters at various websites.  The macho-man tends to make his enemy feminine, then childish, then infantile.

    Moving downward, in sort of playground & schoolyard mentality, the next demeaning term will most likely be----
    "cry-baby."

    Then, not in print, usually, or on the air, ever, the next devolvement will be the term for felines or female pudenda.


    Parent

    There's actually ... (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:30 AM EST
    an anthropological term for this:

    "Verbal mounting rituals."

    Parent

    This is reminding me of that quote (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:31:40 AM EST
    from Samuel Johnson: "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

    Parent
    I'm avoiding "sports" analogies. (none / 0) (#168)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:41:34 AM EST
    Some posters here object to using sports & politics as similar behaviors. Much of my discussion of these media terms (as applied by the pundit class) comes from various studies of male sports behaviors & some aspects of competitive game theory.

    Thanks much.  Your descriptor is absolutely correct.

    Parent

    I think you nailed it. n/t (none / 0) (#10)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:02:23 AM EST
    thats some pretty clear (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:08:55 AM EST
    thinking.
    for a monday morning.

    Parent
    The wrong word to use (5.00 / 18) (#7)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:58:41 AM EST
    When I started reading your post, and whiny jumped out at me as  is this the new word to put down sexism? There is a poster here who uses it all the time as a put down. I believe they are trying to say we are little kids who are not getting our way because the big boys will not let us. I guess that makes the big boys bullies. Yeah, I can see MSNBC being bullies.

    didn't lose the Democratic presidential nomination because she is a woman, and gender no longer is a big deal in American elections.
    No, she lost because of media interference, non support by her own party who ignored the sexism in the media, the transfer of the AA vote and because her advisors did not play the delegate game right at the beginning.

     At any rate, this is not going to help the Obama situation with women as the media is the one who is whiny. They just keep digging.

    Here's the thing... (5.00 / 23) (#15)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:10:19 AM EST
    media apologists immediately try to defuse the claims of sexism by saying "Well, that's not why she lost."

    While that is true, it's a straw man.

    No one is claiming that Hillary Clinton lost because of sexism. It is being raised because it's still an obvious societal elephant that everyone is pretending has left the room.

    That tactic sure puts people on the defensive, though, doesn't it? Which is exactly why media apologists and Obama trolls use it.

    We know exactly why she "lost," and it doesn't bear too close examination.


    Parent

    Ironically, it might be (5.00 / 9) (#40)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:42:24 AM EST
    why he loses in November, if he doesn't pull it together and get control of the 'messaging.'

    Why isn't his campaign manager emailing the hordes with the new tpm that they should not be further alienating potential female voters?

    I'd like to think it's because they realize that they don't really get what's going on and are afraid of making more boneheaded statements.  But I fear that they're in 'hope' mode still; they hope we'll all just fade away and stop impeding the path of the The One with our silly, whiny complaints.

    Parent

    They believe their own propaganda. (5.00 / 14) (#46)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:49:01 AM EST
    Claire McCaskill is an outlier, I believe, although she is right on the money.

    They don't need us. We are old news. They just want us to go away.

    They believe in their "new" coalition of AA's, young people and wealthy Democrats.

    Suzanne Malveaux said as much last week - there will be no outreach to HRC's voters. Expect more blackmail, more insults and more dismissiveness from the Obama campaign and supporters.

    And yes, more sexism.

    Is it November yet?

    Parent

    I hope you're wrong. (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by TomP on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:06:00 AM EST
    That coalition was barely half of the Democratic Party.

    Parent
    Not even close (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:38 AM EST
    to barely half, IMHO. The size of Obama's coalition, I think we'll find in November, has been greatly exaggerated by his caucus wins in red states, and by primary wins in states with a disproportionately large percentage of AA's.

    But I'm just looking at how Obama himself, and his campaign staff and surrogates, are behaving towards Clinton Dems.

    They seem determined to drive them towards McCain.

    Parent

    I don't know if they counted the independents (5.00 / 5) (#149)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:28:21 AM EST
    separately but that is the big question.  Whose boat will they land in? In the last week or so, several of my daughters friends, both indies and moderate GOP said they would have voted for Clinton, but not Obama.  It is the experience thing for them.  We will see how the economy and Iraq and swiftboating plays out.

    Parent
    I think you're right on this. (5.00 / 4) (#152)
    by jackyt on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:29:05 AM EST
    Are the DNC and the Obama campaign deliberately trying to lose? Gore won the popular vote by 500,000 in 2000. Now take even 10% of Hillary's reliable dem voters out of the equation. (1.8 mil). Try 25% (4.5 mil). No way calling us whiny can be a winning strategy.

    Parent
    Dem party leaders and the Establishment (5.00 / 16) (#53)
    by Josey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:53:59 AM EST
    that ran a newbie senator are just as much to blame as the media for minimizing Obama's sexist remarks and race-baiting.
    Whatever degree of divisiveness necessary to "nominate" Obama by demonizing and discrediting the Clintons. And now these same Dems speak of "unity"?? - ha!
    PUMA!

    They never wanted unity. They wanted Obama.

    Parent

    Sexism--in politics and in the courts (5.00 / 10) (#8)
    by bmc on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:00:05 AM EST
    Sexism is an insidious force, pervading everything. If it is still the last "acceptable" bastion of bigotry--which apparently it is--it is a force that is still in the process of moving through the system, pervading everything. The relentless misogyny expressed on MSNBC is just a symptom of a larger societal value system, a systemic bigotry against women. From dismissive attitudes about women's right to control their own reproductive rights to the right of women to be respected as political leaders to the right of women to defend themselves in court against the ultimate violation of rape.

    It is shocking to me that any judge could rule that a female rape victim doesn't have the right to use the word "rape" while testifying about the crime perpetrated against her. It defies belief that a judge could rule that the words "rape" and "sexual assault" are prohibited during testimony from a victim to describe a horrific crime of--well--RAPE.

    Maybe Jeralyn could address this court ruling in a later post. I'd be very interested in hearing her take on it. Whether it ultimately is argued as a First Amendment right, or an Equal Rights violation, it is nonetheless an obviously shocking assault on the victims of rape (mostly women) and their right to justice.

    Judges stir controversy by barring the word 'rape' in court
    By Tony Rizzo | Kansas City Star
    It's the only way Tory Bowen knows to honestly describe what happened to her. She was raped.

    But a judge prohibited her from uttering the word "rape" in front of a jury. The term "sexual assault" also was taboo, and Bowen could not refer to herself as a victim or use the word "assailant" to describe the man who allegedly raped her.

    The defendant's presumption of innocence and right to a fair trial trumps Bowen's right of free speech, said the Lincoln, Neb., judge who issued the order.

    Bowen's case is part of what some prosecutors and victim advocates see as a national trend in sexual assault cases. "It's a topic that's coming up more and more," said Joshua Marquis, an Oregon prosecutor and a vice president of the National District Attorneys Association.

    In Kansas City, Senior Judge Gene Martin recently issued a similar order for the trial of a man charged with raping a teenager in 2000. Despite the semantic restrictions, the Jackson County jury last week found Ray Slaughter guilty of forcible rape and two counts of forcible sodomy.

    Bowen's case gained national notoriety and drew the attention of free-speech proponents after she filed a lawsuit challenging the judge's actions as a First Amendment violation. A federal appeals court dismissed the suit, but Bowen's attorney plans to petition the U.S. Supreme Court.

    Read the full story at KansasCity.com.

    http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/654147.html

    I don't know if this is uncommon (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by cmugirl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:07:01 AM EST
    I know in Michigan a victim of criminal sexual conduct (we don't have "rape" in the penal code) is referred to as a "complaining witness" until the time guilt is proven.

    Parent
    Thanks for the input... (5.00 / 9) (#55)
    by bmc on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:57:28 AM EST
    There is something inherently wrong with prohibiting the word "rape" to describe "rape." It's too provocative? Well, it's a serious allegation, a serious accusation to begin with; and there are legal and criminal penalties for making the charge falsely. So, by making the charge of "rape" the victim puts herself in legal jeopardy by the very act of making the accusation. To further penalize a victim by prohibiting her from naming the crime committed against her, or to force her to use soothing linguistic synonyms like "criminal sexual conduct"--which, let's be honest, could mean anything from an inappropriate touch in a mall, to a violent physical attack which puts one in the hospital for months, and leaves them physically and psychically scarred for life-- is, to me, the horrifying equivalent of saying, "you're just whining!"

    Words have meaning.

    Let me repeat that: Words have meaning.

    That's WHY such soothing equivalencies and the prohibition of the word RAPE during court testimony. Sure, the victim can describe the details so the jury gets the message, but the very fact that jurists feel the need to provide linguistic synonyms is an act of dismissiveness about the violence of the crime, and an act of dismissiveness toward the victims--mostly women--of the particular crime.

    IF THE VICTIMS OF RAPE WERE GENERALLY MEN, the word "rape" would likely be supplanted with much stronger words as an equivalence...and it would be a death penalty crime, and there would be no such prohibition on the word "rape" as inflammatory or perjorative to the defense.

    Parent

    I don't disagree (5.00 / 6) (#66)
    by cmugirl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:08:38 AM EST
    And it is sexist - someone who was mugged can say they were "robbed" and/or "assaulted".  Someone who was knifed or shot or poisoned (and lived to tell about it) can say that a defendant "tried to kill them."

    And frankly, if there were a whole lot of things that happened to men in great numbers, our whole system (legal, work, family, social structure) would be completely different (if men got pregnant, child care would be a foregone conclusion and birth control would be given out for free on the corner).

    Parent

    Yes!!! And if men got pregnant . . . (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:08:12 AM EST
    . . . abortion would be a sacrament in all churches.  [Somebody I can't recall from the 1960s]

    Parent
    Florynce R. Kennedy (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by stxabuela on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:31:49 AM EST
    "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

    Molly Ivins once said something like, If men were the ones giving birth, Congress would have classified pregnancy as a sexually-transmitted disease.  I've never been able to find the exact quote.  

    Parent

    I know this is not what you mean (none / 0) (#209)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:17:28 AM EST
    but I couldnt resist:

    NEWS OF THE WORLD

    Parent

    I don't agree with this line of reasoning (none / 0) (#129)
    by befuddledvoter on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:11:27 AM EST
    In court, words have precise meaning in the legal sense.  For a "victim" to state she was raped allows the "victim" to invade the province of the jury.  It is up to the jury to decide, based on the evidence, whether or not the person was raped.  It is a legal conclusion that only the jury can render.  

    Note, also, the same rules apply to male rape "victims."  

    Parent

    next we'll euphemise murder as... (5.00 / 3) (#164)
    by jackyt on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:39:00 AM EST
    rendered breathless (just to not prejudice the jury, don'tcha know).

    Parent
    So, this works for you? (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:10:12 AM EST
    "To force a victim to say, `when the defendant and I had sexual intercourse' is just absurd," he said.


    Parent
    True (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by cmugirl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:16:18 AM EST
    But then, doesn't the same standard apply to murder victim?

    Parent
    in the end (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:07:11 AM EST
    the media is going to create a huge ditch for the voters to throw Obama into on election day it seems. Their disrepect of the voters and their pushing of Obama is one toxic combination.

    Well, the media will dig the ditch and the repubs (5.00 / 6) (#19)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:21:40 AM EST
    will do the burying with the 527's.  Monumental landslide, McCain's favor, my prediction.

    Parent
    The media is destroying (5.00 / 5) (#142)
    by Virginialass on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:21:26 AM EST
    their own candidate but they are too silly to see it. By trivializing the Hillary supporters feelings about sexism in the primary campaign is not going to woo us to vote for him. I am trying so hard to want to vote for Obama. I am just getting angrier and angrier. I am sure I am not the only one who is feeling this.

    If they were smart they will make a public appology to all the women voters about their sexist comments. Obama should appologize for not defending her as she has with the racial issues that have popped up during the campaign.

    We have become so desenstized to these issues because we experience it all the time with the media. All the time. I have learned to ignore it myself and actually really started to take note during this campaign and how it affected Hillary's votes. I have 3 daughters and I am so sad she is not going to be President. I think she would have made a world of difference to women in this country. My daughters cried when I told them she was out of the race. They took it harder than I did. I told them they could be President someday and now they are asking me all kinds of questions about what they need to do to become President.

    Thank you Hillary for the inspiration you have given me to raise three strong independent daughters. Unlike me their goals are high and realistic to them!!

    Parent

    Senator McCaskill gets it. (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by TomP on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:19:35 AM EST

    The key, Ms. McCaskill said, is approaching Mrs. Clinton's supporters with utmost humility. And, Ms. Backus added, that is not always the strongest suit of the young people who are some of Mr. Obama's most enthusiastic supporters.

    "Not nyeh nyeh nyeh nyeh," Ms. McCaskill said, making a taunting sound. "We need them very, very badly, and we shouldn't be able to be afraid to say that we need them."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/07/us/politics/07women.html?pagewanted=print

    Humility means not denigrating those who speak about sexism.  It means listening.  

    Hunt sounds like a sexist.

    McGaskill (5.00 / 9) (#21)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:22:05 AM EST
    is a bad emmisary on the issue, but in the end, probably the best Obama can do.


    Parent
    Too bad Senator McCaskill (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by Radical Faith on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:38:46 AM EST
    made a rather nasty and needless remark about Senator Clinton's husband during the campaign. Otherwise, her words that you note here might have been more helpful.

    Since  her unfortunate comment about Bill was the first thing that came to mind when I read her admonition to the taunters, I'll have to agree with Edgar08 and reiterate she's probably not the best emissary.

    Parent

    My point is not about (none / 0) (#62)
    by TomP on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:06:55 AM EST
    an emissary.  It's about her words.


    Parent
    Humility (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by daring grace on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:29:25 AM EST
    is a rare and welcome concept to introduce to political discourse.

    Words matter, indeed.

    Parent

    And my point is (5.00 / 6) (#107)
    by Radical Faith on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:56:43 AM EST
    even if her words are sincere and are meant to not only tone down the gloating of certain Obama supporters but to also assuage the boiling resentment of many Clinton supporters, they carry little weight due to her previous statements.

    But all that aside, do you think the "nyeh, nyeh, nyeh" crowd McCaskill is addressing is even capable of listening to her words? I believe most of them are too happily rolling in the sexist and/or anti-Clinton muck to care.

    Parent

    Working to Reconcile and Collaborate (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by daring grace on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:10:22 AM EST
    has to start somewhere.

    There will always be elements of both campaigns that can't or won't participate, who will stand apart and intensify the divide. And that's unfortunate for unity efforts and for efforts to defeat the Republicans in November.

    But not everyone in the Obama camp hates Hillary and her supporters. I don't.

    I'm not aware of Senator McCaskill's other remarks, so I can't speak to that, but I find her suggestion of humility very powerful.

    Parent

    The "we" and "them" ruins it. (5.00 / 11) (#43)
    by ineedalife on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:47:04 AM EST
    Aren't we all on the same side? The "we" and "them" underscores that the Clinton wing of the party has been externalized and is just a tool to be used and discarded when done. It certainly sends the message that the Obama-Kennedys have no intention of sharing power or re-annealing the party into a whole.

    I would be saying that we are all Democrats and have to pull together to achieve our common goals.

    Parent

    Approach them with the utmost humility (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by bmc on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:07:38 AM EST
    McCaskill thinks that approaching Clinton supporters with the "utmost humility" is going to address the former "sweetie" arrogance? Is it going to soothe our fury over the 16 months of hate-speech I was subjected to from Obama supporters at Orange sites, or other faux progressive sites? The litany of insulting hate speech from Matthews, Olbermann, Barnicle, Carlson, Scarborough and the rest of the "frat pack" at GE's Animal House Network? Is approaching me with the "utmost humility" going to excuse Obama's disgraceful refusal to shake the hand of Sen. Clinton in the Senate chamber while McCaskill smirked on the fringes?

    Clair, oh, Claire. Sweetie, you're drunk with hubris, and it shows. "Utmost humility?" Too late, Sweetie Claire. We have seen the utmost arrogance already, so the utmost "humility" would obviously be fake.

    Parent

    Claire (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:38:00 AM EST
    is shopping for drapes for the VP residence.  that is why she wants to play nice.

    Parent
    I think McCaskill (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:46:12 AM EST
    would be a perfect choice for Obama's VP. 8^)

    Parent
    from what I know of her from (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:48:22 AM EST
    my neighbors across the border she would be a perfect match.
    that was not a compliment.

    Parent
    Neither was mine. (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:24:54 AM EST
    I already emailed her and "thanked" her for reaching out to me.

    Parent
    Could Be That She Is Trying To (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:51:24 AM EST
    backtract so that she won't go down in history as a one term senator. If Obama loses, Claire's political career is IMO in jeopardy.

    Parent
    she sure isnt (5.00 / 0) (#206)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:13:35 AM EST
    liked much by the people I know.

    Parent
    Misery (5.00 / 6) (#18)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:20:49 AM EST
    At some point it became something people felt compelled to talk about.  And to the degree that it is relevant, it became a contest of sorts.

    Who is the bigger victim of intolerance?   What remains the larger problem in society, racism or sexism?

    Well.  A signpost on that highway is now this sudden realization.  No one can ever say someone else is whining about racism without appearing insensitive to the issue if not complicit.

    Just the simple fact that one can say "whining about sexism" and one may not say "whining about racism" seems to be a large piece of the puzzle.

    Don't be politicallly correct (none / 0) (#36)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:40:53 AM EST
    It is the same thing as your saying relative to racism. On this board alone, you have people that say the exact same thing about racism that you are saying others say about sexism.  I have seen, "I am tired of being accused of being a racist."  Well what is the difference?  You discount comments of racism and another is discounting comments of sexism, and both are just unacceptable.

    Parent
    Racism isn't discounted. Not at all. (5.00 / 9) (#44)
    by rooge04 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:48:29 AM EST
    FALSE accusations of racism, based SOLELY on not voting for Obama is what bothers me.

    Being a person of color and all.

    Parent

    Saying "I am tired of being (5.00 / 8) (#45)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:48:59 AM EST
    called a racist" Is different than saying people whine about racism.


    Parent
    Umm (none / 0) (#52)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:53:38 AM EST
    How many times do you hear and read he needs to stop pulling the race card.  I am not sure what the race card is, but to me it always sounded a little bit like this person is saying "stop your whining"  

    Parent
    I'm sorry you don't see it (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:02:11 AM EST
    When I say someone is playing the race card, that doesn't mean I'm denying the problem exists in our society.

    When someone refers to "whining about sexism", the distinct impression is given that one does not believe the issue is a real issue.

    In one circumstance, the accusation is taken seriously, assessed and then an opinion is made about it.  And sometimes it is playing the race card.

    In the other circumstance, the accusation is not taken seriously, one is merely whining.

    Parent

    Playing the race card is an attack (none / 0) (#137)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:18:11 AM EST
    strategy.  Whining about racism is a victim strategy.

    Parent
    Exactly... (5.00 / 5) (#186)
    by sander60tx on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:51:31 AM EST
    This weekend I foolishly replied to a diary at the orange place entitled "Is it safe to come back?"  Note how I was attacked in my response... you'll see precisely the same kind of tactic as has been discussed here, only more vicious.  I wasn't even discussing sexism, but I have been similarly attacked there for mentioning it as well.  You see the Clintons (and now her followers) are always "playing the victim" and they're "sick and tired of that" over there!  But of course, when they falsely accuse Clinton of saying something racist, that's not whining and there're not playing the victim at all.

    My comment:

    In other words, you're saying (10+ / 0-)
    that no, it's not safe to come back.  I figured as much.

    The first reply:

    no (21+ / 0-)
    I'd say it is safe to come back, but leave the hypocritical, self-righteous "shame on you" crap at the door, because Hillary and her supporters are much more guilty of divisiveness and "not knowing who the enemy is" than people on here. Seriously, DK has less than 1% of the impact that Hillary and Bill Clinton have, I think their nasty scorch the earth tactics are just a LITTLE worse than some pissed off Obama or Edwards supporters on here responding to those attacks.

    So it is perfectly safe to come back, just don't act self-righteous, don't be a hypocrite, and don't play the victim.

    So how does one discuss sexism without inviting such accusations?  I looked up victim in the dictionary:

    somebody who or something that is adversely affected by an action or circumstance

    somebody who experiences misfortune and feels helpless to remedy it

    It's very frustrating because in trying to do something about being "adversely affected" by sexism, one is made more "helpless" by the accusation of whining, etc.  I mostly stay away from the Orange place, partly because of the abuse, but also because it seems so difficult to get through to anybody over there.

    Parent

    Both need to be discussed. (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by ineedalife on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:51:56 AM EST
    Your point is well taken. The way forward is to bring both fully out in the open. If Clinton-backers were truly racist, point it out with evidence. There seems to be no shortage of evidence of sexism among Obama-supporters but certainly not all.

    Parent
    People do call it out (none / 0) (#54)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:55:59 AM EST
    But it is discounted, as unfortuantely sexism is often discounted at sites like huffingtonpost.  I saw people say that her statement of hard working white americans wasn't racist.  Well if you don't think it is, okay, but I do.

    Parent
    The people who write the exit poll questions (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:06:48 AM EST
    Themselves are being racist then.

    She framed the issue no differently than anyone else talking about exit polls.


    Parent

    Is "typical white woman" racist? (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:38:45 AM EST
    saying "typical" anything (5.00 / 0) (#185)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:51:29 AM EST
    in a racially charged environment is a bad idea.

    Parent
    Within the context of the speech (none / 0) (#176)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:45:16 AM EST
    No

    Parent
    Why not? (5.00 / 3) (#195)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:04:10 AM EST
    I mean I do understand that Obama didn't intend to make a racist statement, but can you accept that someone who might see themselves falling into that category might see it as such, especially since one of the qualities being attributed to that "typical white woman" was saying racist things about black men? Or if you don't want to label it racist, can you at least see how it might be considered offensive?

    Parent
    Straw man arguement (none / 0) (#187)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:53:48 AM EST
    Firt Hillary is a very smart woman, and as someone who is obviously supported civil rights and black americans for a long time, she has obviously talked to a few of us.  I am guessing through those many conversations she would understand that we would find this kind of language insulting and wrong.  I am sure she understands how language and words are used daily to put down many different groups and to insinuate a different then mentality.

    Parent
    I was under the impression (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by tree on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:02:42 AM EST
    that she apologized for her bad phrasing on that quote.

    Parent
    well then everyone else (none / 0) (#196)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:04:44 AM EST
    including those writing exit poll analysis done on this blog must be mired in ignorance and have no idea what they are saying.

    A truly brilliant woman she is though!!  She did follow up and say it was wrong.  Wrong because the color of anyone's skin has nothing at all to do with why the voters in question still rejected obama even after he was elevated to media darling front runner status.

    Parent

    hard working white americans (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:07:39 AM EST
    the point she was trying to make will be clear in Nov.


    Parent
    you also play the Race Card (5.00 / 6) (#70)
    by Josey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:15:39 AM EST
    >>>>I saw people say that her statement of hard working white americans wasn't racist.  Well if you don't think it is, okay, but I do.

    Hillary was citing exit polling data that "hard working white Americans" weren't supporting Obama. Who can blame them? - after he called Democrats "racists" for not supporting him.

    Hard working Black Americans support Obama - but that statement isn't considered racist. And the 95% of Blacks that support Obama aren't considered racists.

    Parent

    Your argument seems to be (5.00 / 7) (#75)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:23:48 AM EST
    it's ok to be sexist, because some people are racist.  Or to be more accurate, you think we shouldn't talk about people who deny sexism, because some people deny racism?

    Seriously?  This is the 'ism' competition discussed elsewhere on this thread.  Intellectually, it's a red herring.  Practically, it won't win Obama any support.

    Even if I agreed it was true, the sexism of this campaign is not reduced one iota just because there is also racism.

    Parent

    Bottom line, (5.00 / 9) (#180)
    by Firefly4625 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:47:49 AM EST
    it seems to me, is that RACISM has been treated by the entire corporate media, the Obama campaign and all Obama supporters as a REAL ISSUE - well, because IT IS a real issue, but also because it worked to Obama's advantage and Hillary's disadvantage.

    At the same time, SEXISM has been treated by the same agencies of influence (mostly male good ol' boys) as a NON-ISSUE, a "whiny" issue - because THAT worked to Obama's advantage and Hillary's disadvantage.

    Parent

    Not at all (none / 0) (#175)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:44:08 AM EST
    My point is that we are weaker by discounting the other.  I never implied that sexism is not present or rears its ugly head daily.  I would ask that you point out where I did that, I would never want to imply such these (seriouslly).

    Parent
    One difference (5.00 / 13) (#63)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:07:00 AM EST
    (and there are many) is that the DNC and MSM have jumped, no, fallen all over themselves to defend against any implication of racism, real or not.

    Whoever coined the term 'malign acceptance of sexism' is brilliant, because it sums up the behavior of Obama, the DNC and the MSM.  Yet it does not go far enough to describe this election, as he and his supporters were delighted, simply delighted, to leverage sexism in any form and from any source.

    And now, with a dawning and belated realization that that may not have been the best strategy, the responses offered are 1) you're whiners; 2) a national conversation; and 3) 'but I have daughters!'

    And it's been the Republicans, yes the Republicans, who saw the problem and raced to address it first.  Is their strategy anything but lip service?  No, of course not.  But when the alternative is being punched in the face and then derided for your two black eyes by your own party, might it be preferable?

    Parent

    exactly!! (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by Josey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:19:00 AM EST
    Not another dime for the DNC! which lacks money for the convention and has cancelled 24 parties.
    Let them eat cake!

    Parent
    How do you know (none / 0) (#77)
    by Emma on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:27:23 AM EST
    that the DNC has cancelled parties?  Just curious.

    Parent
    Read this (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:35:47 AM EST
    been reported (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:39:12 AM EST
    all over

    Parent
    Thanks! (none / 0) (#110)
    by Emma on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:59:59 AM EST
    I stopped reading all over sometime before the Ohio primary, so I appreciate the link.  ;)

    Parent
    HA (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:06:08 AM EST
    I have to since I stopped watching Cable news.

    Parent
    oops! 56 parties were cancelled, not 24 (none / 0) (#200)
    by Josey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:09:27 AM EST
    What is discounted (5.00 / 6) (#80)
    by alsace on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:29:50 AM EST
    is the faulty logic that says:
    Racists don't support Obama.
    You don't support Obama.
    Ergo, you are a racist.


    Parent
    Just heard on morning radio (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:21:58 AM EST
    that the sexism thing wasn't that big a deal.

    Seems we made most of it up.

    The media doesn't want to admit (5.00 / 9) (#23)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:27:09 AM EST
    its own guilt. They're all trying to cover it up and pretend it never happened.

    "We have always been at war with East Asia."

    Parent

    I would love (5.00 / 11) (#27)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:35:47 AM EST
    to get a precise measure of just how much more sexism it would take to be a big deal to these people.  Just so we'd know exactly when we little ladies were allowed to have the vapors.

    Parent
    IMO (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:50:14 AM EST
    it would take being applied to someone besides a Clinton for the media to notice.

    Parent
    Not even then... (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:53:02 AM EST
    Sorry...but I sincerely doubt folks will wake up to it any time soon.

    "What?!? You got your vote. What else could you possibly want???"

    Parent

    Bu it is, (5.00 / 10) (#58)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:04:38 AM EST
    every day, all across America.

    The media refuses to acknowledge it because they are complicit.

    Why hasn't the ERA passed? Why are woman STILL not getting equal pay for equal work? Why are abortion rights slowly being eroded in state after state? Why is maternity leave disappearing from corporate benefits packages - and why are women being forced to go on half ("disability") pay during whatever pitiful amount of time off they get? Why is abstinence-only "education" even being taken seriously when studies have shown that it leads to more pregnancies and STD's?

    Why is the media not covering all of this?

    It's only the hysterical, whiny women that are affected, of course.

    They can just go iron some shirts and forget all about it.

    Parent

    I appreciate what you are saying (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:11:27 AM EST
    and I dont disagree.  but within the context of this election is what I meant.  I still  believe the things done to Hillary would never have been allowed if it had been any other woman.
    Al Hunt and his ilk would have been righteously indignant.

    Parent
    I understand... (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:35:49 AM EST
    I just don't think we should get too caught up in saying that, because really, what other woman could possibly have made such a successful run for President this year, other than Hillary? If we say it was not just sexism, but HDS, we run the risk of thinking that some hypothetical female candidate would have been treated with more respect.

    IMHO of course. :-)

    Parent

    I dont disagree (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:41:21 AM EST
    which is why I dont really push this idea anywhere but here.  I assume people here are smart enough to get the difference.

    Parent
    Had the candidate (5.00 / 5) (#88)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:38:13 AM EST
    been someone like Sebelius, we would not have seen things like the Hillary nutcracker because Sebelius is not as strong a personality as Hillary.  But the media is sexist in covering her.  Selling off state cars, for instance, was referred to as having a "garage sale". I don't think that reducing the state fleet to save money would have been portrayed that way if Richardson had done it. I think that sexism comes in many forms. Where Hillary is portrayed as being threatening, I think Sebelius will be portrayed as being weak.

    Parent
    portrayed as being weak (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:40:26 AM EST
    or even worse "acceptable"

    Parent
    That (5.00 / 4) (#104)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:54:40 AM EST
    is an excellent point.  Calling it a garage sale makes it sound like she's finally getting rid of her Beanie Babies.

    Parent
    The corollary (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:42:23 AM EST
    Is that one can say racist things about Obama if the context is such that one will understand that it would only be about Obama, and not all black people.  I think such a context could exist, no?

    I don't know.  I think you're right, but then I consider the implications.

    I am also reminded progressive bloggers did attack Michael Steele in a racist way.

    So.  Maybe you are right.

    I think, though, it only deepens my sadness for the party and the people who now control it.

    I'd rather NOT have racist attacks on Michael Steele.

    I'm sure I've said all that quite badly.  hopefully you get the point.

    Parent

    I think I do (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:46:29 AM EST
    and I think I agree

    Parent
    Steele (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:06:00 AM EST
    Really. His being a descendant of slaves was not a negative. His policies and associations were his problem. You know, being a republican hack.

    Parent
    While that may be true (none / 0) (#97)
    by americanincanada on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:47:18 AM EST
    it just makes it that much worse.

    Parent
    absolutely (none / 0) (#101)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:49:24 AM EST
    The real danger now (5.00 / 9) (#24)
    by Lou Grinzo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:28:50 AM EST
    Everyone seems to be focused on the issue of "how does Obama get the votes of the hardcore Clinton supporters?"  I think we'll quickly see the emergence of a second-level effect related to this sexism issue: Clinton supporters who are currently intending to vote for Obama, but could be pushed away if Obama, his advisers, and supporters don't defuse this "it's just whining" BS.  (Just to be clear, the BS refers to demeaning the concerns of people who see the sexism, not the claims of sexism.)

    In US politics today a lot of very powerful political forces are grinding together like tectonic plates, and we're all guessing which fault lines will give way first and the size and location of the resulting quakes.  Not a good situation, but not one beyond skilled management.


    Yikes (5.00 / 6) (#25)
    by Miss Led on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:28:51 AM EST
    "Egregious" sexism 24/7 in the media didn't influence the voters.

    Any shred of evidence for that, Al?

    Wow. (5.00 / 14) (#26)
    by lilburro on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:31:22 AM EST
    They miss the whole point.  I've never heard anyone say, Clinton's loss was caused by sexism.  But we could fill up a lot of air time playing the hits Clinton took for her gender, and the way her supporters were characterized as worthless older white women.  Or the way they were simply ignored as a voting bloc, a la TPM Cafe.

    This campaigan just exposed the ugliness waiting to pour out of newscasters, coworkers, and friends when looking for a few yuks, a little attention, a way to put down Clinton and her supporters.  My mother used to tell me, when men would say sexist things, that "some men are just like that."  I think this campaign has shown that our culture has a real problem.  It's not that sexism prevented Clinton from doing anything - it's just that it made the whole process more difficult for everyone involved; difficult for Clinton, who had to have the grace to ignore the idiots in NH telling her to iron their shirts; difficult for her female supporters, who probably suffered more than Clinton the indignity of seeing one of their own bear remarks that by their nature could be directed at any of us ; difficult for the undecided voter, who constantly had to look past the troubling characterizations of Clinton to make up their mind.

    Albert Hunt doesn't get it, obviously.  Bet he has huge cankles.

    Heh. Heh. Heh. (5.00 / 7) (#29)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:35:59 AM EST
    Albert Hunt doesn't get it, obviously.  Bet he has huge cankles.

    When we can dismiss a man due to his baldness or beer gut the way Hillary was dismissed for her "cankles" or cleavage, then we can discuss how sexism is dead.

    Can you imagine if we said that Joe Biden wasn't a viable Presidential candidate because of his hairplugs?

    Parent

    Personally (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:41:55 AM EST
    I'd love to get a little nutcracker stand for my desk.  I'd put the Hillary nutcracker on it and beside it would stand a gleaming scalpel.

    You have your little joke and I'll have my little joke.

    Parent

    The real giveaway line by Al Hunt (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by HenryFTP on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:35:51 AM EST
    was this one:

    To be sure, some of the cable-television news bloviators were egregiously unfair to Hillary Clinton; so was there some egregiously unfair coverage of Barack Obama. There is little indication they influenced the electorate.

    If you can swallow the notion that Al Hunt, Judy Woodruff and the rest of the Beltway Opinion Elite truly believe they have no influence on the electorate, then I guess you'll also believe that the presence of some prominent women politicians among Obama's supporters makes it impossible that the Obama campaign used any sexist imagery in contrasting Obama to Hillary, or indeed that the Obama team "out-thought and out-strategized" the Clinton team "at every turn" by cleverly taking a beating in Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky and Indiana after he had been anointed as unbeatable.

    Al Hunt is no dummy, and his opening "dumb guy schtick" is just a lure for the gullible to jump on him and validate his point -- he cleverly deflects the debate back to the many defects in Hillary's campaign, and avoids altogether much if any discussion about the many defects in the corporate media coverage of the campaign -- if Shorenstein and Pew says it's "largely favorable", what are we all complaining about? What's a few thousand vagina and castration jokes between friends?

    Excuse my doubling up, (5.00 / 8) (#38)
    by HenryFTP on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:41:57 AM EST
    but I just realized that even that ridiculous Al Hunt quote is maybe not so dumb as it looks -- while the Beltway Opinion Elite might indeed have little influence on the electorate, they have monstrous influence on the Democratic Party Leadership and elected officials -- who not so coincidentally are casting the deciding votes in nomination contest.

    Parent
    I agree. The sunday morning show are all for (none / 0) (#210)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:18:16 AM EST
    the insiders in both parties. They know that the high points will make it into the MSM to form opinion.  Thats why they are important.  The rest of us ignore them.   Obama, to his credit,  told Chris Matthews once in response to a question about cable news that he is no longer concerned with what is said, because he no longer watches it.  Chris looked stunned.

    Parent
    Ugh (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:37:00 AM EST


    banal excess or societal inequities (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by ding7777 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:37:10 AM EST
    Mr. Hunt says  "gender no longer is a big deal in American elections" and rationalizes the failure to see women (proportionally) in office as due to the "societal inequities" of a women's lack of ambition.

    Yet, if women are ambitious and overcome the societal inequities, as Sex and the City women try to do, then Mr. Hunt sees it as a "celebration of banal excess"

    That, Mr Hunt,  is the problem.

    This jumped out at me (5.00 / 11) (#33)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:39:17 AM EST
    `
    There is a substantial gender gap in political ambition,'' they conclude. ``Men tend to have it and women don't.''

    Kind of like women don't want the jobs that pay more money so that's why they do go after them.

    Meant "don't go after them" Preview (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:40:32 AM EST
    is my friend.

    Parent
    NYTimes article on women (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:45:55 AM EST
    in male dominated fields.
    LINK
    "It turned out to be really useful to allow some of my colleagues to imagine I was a man," the worker is quoted as saying. The e-mail messages Finn received were strikingly different than those received by Josephine.

    A must read for anyone interested in the perception of gender differences.

    Parent

    Fabian (5.00 / 5) (#71)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:17:55 AM EST
    Thanks for the link.  I was an engineer for 20 years. Thanks to a husband who is really a team player, I was able to do the 24/7 bit even when it involved getting on a plane.  It was hard working to improve things for women in the field.  In order to promote my own career, I had to fit in with pizza for breakfast crowd, but to promote the careers of younger women coming in the door, I had to "become a grown-up person". That's what I got accused of for real. Siding with the grown-ups in HR.

    Parent
    Obama and "45-year-old women" (5.00 / 7) (#34)
    by Mad Donkey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:40:11 AM EST
    I was surprised that more people didn't notice Obama and Crowley's conversation about "45-year-old women". Crowley asks Obama what he would say to such women.

    He acts as if all 45-year-old women--women two years younger than he is--are at the same stage in life. Their kids are in college, they're struggling, and so on.

    His wife is about 45, with kids in elementary school, so you'd think he'd know more about the variety of situations they might face. But no--in Obama's mind, they're all MUCH older than he is.

    Just How Old is He, Again?

    Age is a relative thing (5.00 / 8) (#47)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:49:56 AM EST
    I said this once before, but I noticed during the campaign that whenever the 41-45 year old demographic went to Obama in a race, they were lumped in with 'younger' voters while when the same demographic went to Clinton they're 'older' voters.

    That is, older and women -- and dismissible, evidently.

    Parent

    oh, great catch, Mad Donkey (5.00 / 7) (#56)
    by mary kate on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:59:29 AM EST
    And at the risk of sounding peevish, I have to say that this is one of my pet peeves about the punditry's "analysis" of gender and demography.  All this talk of "older women" and "women of a certain age" not responding to the "youthful" message of the young male candidate ... the implication being that these bitter old crones are leftover from another era or something ... when, in fact, large numbers of these women are actually the same age as the "youthful" candidate.

    Parent
    I am seven years younger. :-) (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:05:15 AM EST
    "they're all MUCH older" (5.00 / 6) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:25:51 AM EST
    an email I received this morning:
    (maybe we all do this)

    While waiting for my first appointment in the reception room of a new dentist, I noticed his certificate, which bore his full name.
    Suddenly, I remembered that a tall, handsome boy with the same name had been in my high school class some 30 years ago. Upon seeing him, however, I quickly discarded any such thought. This balding, grey-haired man with the deeply lined face was way too old to have been my classmate. After he had examined my teeth, I asked him if he had attended the local high school.

    "Yes," he replied.
    When did you graduate?" I asked.
    He answered, "In 1971. Why?"
    "You were in my class!" I exclaimed.
    He looked at me closely and then asked, "What did you teach?"

    Parent

    Thanks Mad (none / 0) (#191)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:55:55 AM EST
    the next one's pretty good too...
    Or If

    Parent
    BTW-I think more Senators, etc (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:42:10 AM EST
    should have spoken out loud about this before Dean mentioned it. I know they did not want to sound whiny, but I think it would have been appropiate for some 'male' Senators and Congressmen to voice their disapproval at the media. I hope they were not scared of reprisals from the bullies.

    The Media is in denial... (5.00 / 9) (#41)
    by northeast73 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:45:07 AM EST
    For those who havent seen it, a great youtube of some of the more sexist media comments.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcdnlNZg2iM

    What is bothering me about the media chatter re: sexism is that the first thing they say now is "For her to say she lost due to sexism is rediculous...." or "all of a sudden she is losing and now blames sexism...."and the discussion ends there.

    Its not "all of a sudden".  Here is a great article by Tom Watson from January...
    http://tomwatson.typepad.com/tom_watson/2008/01/the-sexist-medi.html

    "What kind of progressive American leader would stand silent, supporting with the cold reserve of ambition the disgracefully sexist, blatantly anti-feminist attack on a well-respected woman of the same party, a political foe perhaps, but a national Democratic leader?

    Barack Obama - so far."

    Wow, I read the first sentence.. (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by JustJennifer on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:06:39 AM EST
    of the article and thought "isn't that weird that he went to see Sex and the City with his 19 year old daughter"  LOL  I saw the movie Saturday and it really wasn't something I would have wanted to watch with my teenager.  

    The Obama movement is over (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by JJHat on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:11:53 AM EST
    because they've lost it's only purpose: to destroy Hillary's campaign. Now they have no purpose, no message, no target--no reason to exist. They're terminally stuck in their vile modus operandi. They don't know how to switch into an anti-McCain posture--they were never programmed to do such. Soon paranoia will engulf their cult addled brains, and eventually they will turn on each other like the rabid dogs they are.

    Now its McCain Bashing... (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by northeast73 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:13:05 AM EST
    ...didnt you hear them all primary long?

    "we need her out of the way so we can go after McCain"

    Why cant Obama just run on his own, um, merits?

    Why is Obamanation all about "bashing" his opponents?

    Parent

    Obama Movement is Stuck!!! (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by befuddledvoter on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:30:15 AM EST
    I logged onto ABCnews Jake Tapper last night, after being absent for a few days.  The same vitriol was being spewed against Hillary and her supporters!!!  I was amazed.  They are a very foolish bunch and are STUCK in this groove.  

    They do not accept that they will need HIllary supporters to win in the GE.  They are as vile as ever.  I was shocked by this, as strategically, this makes no sense for the GE.  

    They can easily do without my vote, it seems.  Now if Obama were a real leader he would send out a massive email to his supporters to knock it off.  He never has and probably never will.  He is allowed to say nice things about Hillary in his speeches now because his supporters do all his dirty work.  

     

    Parent

    Give him 20 years (5.00 / 8) (#178)
    by tree on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:47:00 AM EST
    Now if Obama were a real leader he would send out a massive email to his supporters to knock it off.  He never has and probably never will.

    "These were not the supporters I knew."

    Parent

    Over? (none / 0) (#133)
    by 1jane on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:13:23 AM EST
    The 50 state Obama strategy is in place and moving fast. Obama Fellows, young professionals who can take 6 weeks off from their jobs are headed to my state and every state in the union this summer for training and registering more new voters as well as collaborating with existing Democratic county organizations regarding precinct data and voter targeting. Obama offices are going to reopened and expanded before the end of this month..over, not so much. The DPO has their Neighbor-to Neighbor program in place and ready to launch as well. Go to your state Democratic website and find out how you can help defeat the Republicans and take back America.

    Parent
    Is there (5.00 / 3) (#160)
    by Emma on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:35:46 AM EST
    any election where registering new voters has provided a victory?  I think the new voter vote may be as ephemeral as the youth vote.

    Parent
    It's interesting still isn't it? (5.00 / 4) (#177)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:45:49 AM EST
    Getting 18-22 year olds registered is supposed to deliver victory.  "Ah I see that's why we lost time after time. The kids don't vote." say's I.

    The lack of participation by registered youth begs the question about the utility of registration drives.

    I tend to see the democratic party as regionally and culturally  limited not generationally limited. We run poorly in the south and that is what kills us. We can't make the symbolic concesssion of voting for a southern accented liberal (instead we get pompous asses from mass) and it's broken our party in election after election.

    Parent

    They can take their theories and shove 'em (5.00 / 10) (#73)
    by Sunshine on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:20:21 AM EST
    I've heard enough of "whiney" or "give them time, they will come around" or how about "give 'em room, they'll fall in line".....   This is not only about Hillary, it's how women were treated during the whole process....  The media is trying to find a scapegoat and not look at their own when the media is blamed for sexism, why don't they replay some of the quotes by Matthews, Russert, Olbermann, Cafferty, and the rest, starting with "she's so polarizing", can you imagine if some of them had said this about one of the men... There's other places to go, I'm not sure this is the party of inclusion that they claim to be...  Everybody else is included and the women are expected to "fall in line"...

    How do we correct sexism (5.00 / 6) (#74)
    by stxabuela on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:22:19 AM EST
    When the media, the candidate, and the Democratic Party can't even fricking RECOGNIZE it?  

    After 36 years of being a Democrat, this has been the final straw for me.  I have realized that women have really made very little progress since the anti-ERA forces mobilized in the mid-1970s.  I believe that the last -ism is sexism because it is so deeply ingrained in American society that most of us--men AND women--don't even notice it at the moment it happens.  I admit there have been many occasions in my life when I have felt offended by someone, but I couldn't immediately understand why.  Only after thinking about the conversation did I realize that the person made a sexist statement.  It's almost subliminal.  

    I fear it's too late for me to see real change in my lifetime, but what do I do to change this for my daughters?  I believe the only way to get the attention of the Democratic Party is by withholding my vote and encouraging other women to do the same.  Unfortunately, I don't think the DNC will be able to figure out WHY they've lost my vote.  

    I have never felt so hopeless about effecting change in my life.  

    It's even more frustrating (5.00 / 9) (#102)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:50:24 AM EST
    that you can lay out your reasons and rationale so clearly that an eight-grader could understand them, but they still come back at you with "you're acting out of spite" (or pique, or pettiness, or revenge, or whatever).

    They say "you're just mad your candidate didn't win - here, let me tell you how that happened" (followed by the Obamanation narrative of bad campaign, huge mistakes, blah blah blah).

    They say "she didn't lose because of sexism" (I DIDN'T SAY SHE DID! I said sexism is inexcusable!)

    They say "if you vote for McCain you're voting against your self-interest" (and voting for the representative of the party who sold out my interests, is a better idea - why?)

    Anything but actually read and comprehend that I feel the Democratic Party betrayed its own stated ideals that NO prejudice is an acceptable prejudice, that ALL people must be treated equally, and that sexism must be renounced and rejected just as strongly and consistently as any other form of bigotry.

    Why is this so hard to understand?

    Parent

    it's principles. Like the seperation of church and state.

    We have been screaming for years that the repubs use religion to force people to believe like they do or force their ideals onto a public who may not even share their spirituality.

    Well get ready...

    Joshua Project Obama 08

    Parent

    He lost me (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by suisser on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:29:49 AM EST
    when he said that, paraphrase here, " Clinton had almost as many popular votes as Obama"
    And I should consider his opinion, on anything?

    Grrrrrr, I'm getting so sick of this (5.00 / 7) (#81)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:33:25 AM EST
    I am disappointed that Hillary is not the nominee because in my opinion she was the best candidate for the job.  I never said that she didn't get the nomination because of sexism.  I did say that I was witnessing misogyny and sexism surrounding the primary and it was disgusting and repulsive.  It remains exactly that without accountability but plenty of diversions attempting to find a passive justification for it like what Al Hunt is putting out there.

    Yes (5.00 / 5) (#154)
    by standingup on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:30:16 AM EST
    but the quickest way to shut down productive discussion about the sexism in the primary is to discount it the Al does in his piece.  None of them dared to address any of the sexist remarks when they were made but in retrospect want to dismiss it as nothing more than a bunch of whiny sore losers making noise.  

    Parent
    Al Hunt (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by This from a broad on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:44:56 AM EST
    I emailed Al Hunt after reading your post.  I told him he didn't have a clue about sexism.  He sent me the following reply:  "i don't for a moment think there is no such thing as sexism; it is pervasive. what i did say in this race between a woman and an african american, sen clinton did not lose this race because of gender".

    He has the microphone and he is dead wrong!

    His argument is like ... (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:01:29 AM EST
    a hit and run driver saying I did nothing wrong because the guy I hit wasn't injured.

    Parent
    Even worse... (5.00 / 5) (#122)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:06:24 AM EST
    "Well, he didn't die, did he?  He'll get along fine with a cane."

    Parent
    given the choice between racism (5.00 / 4) (#130)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:12:07 AM EST
    and sexism, pundits will happily adopt the mnatle of sexism, and theatrically shun the trappings of racism.

    Imus would have been fine if he'd called that B-ball team sluts and hos.    the nappy headed part was what got him roasted.

    Parent

    OT I know but this is (5.00 / 4) (#103)
    by mikeyleigh on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:53:32 AM EST
    "breaking news" as reported by MSNBC.  The Obama family, I just learned, had their bike ride along Lake Michigan cut short due to thunderstorms.  With news like this to report, how can anybody expect to see a rational, reasoned, and extensive discussion of the effect of sexism during the Democratic primary.

    Oh yeah, I used to have a world of respect for Al Hunt.  Used to.

    I eagerly await (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:00:15 AM EST
    the results of Michelle Obama's next ob gyn exam.
    [snark]

    Heh.  Can you imagine if there was a President Hillary Clinton and the press had to report the results of her Pap smear?  

    Parent

    no worse (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:05:07 AM EST
    than Bob Dole and Viagra.

    Parent
    Women's bits are ...icky! (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:28 AM EST
    If you want to see men vanish, just have women talk about their reproductive organs and the various troubles caused by them(including childbearing).  It appears to make men very uncomfortable.

    Breast cancer seems to be okay.  Anything below the waist - uh-uhn.

    Parent

    weird (5.00 / 0) (#144)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:22:37 AM EST
    must be one of those "men" things that I just dont get (there are many).  like cigars and ice hockey.


    Parent
    For the first time in recent memory, (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:28:30 AM EST
    nothing about Obama on the front page of the NYT today.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by kaleidescope on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:56:23 AM EST
    I wonder how the punditocracy would've responded in 2000 if Republicans and media figures had used blatant anti-semitism against Joe Lieberman.  Jokes about grubbing for money, being a secret agent of Israel, part of a cabal that killed Jesus, people laughing about how big his nose is.

    Would Keith Olberman have kept his job if, referring to Lieberman, he'd said, "I wish someone would gas him, send him to the showers."

    That would be the end of Olberman's career.

    BTD, and later ... (5.00 / 4) (#108)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:57:28 AM EST
    Hunt claims it was all Hillary's fault.

    You, know, like "she was asking of it."

    And he starts off the article with the brilliant (heh) observation that women are different from men, because (wait for it) his daughter liked the SEX AND THE CITY movie and he didn't.

    He might has well have just said, "Some of my best friends are women" and been done with it.

    some of the best ... (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:13:50 AM EST
    hookers i've been with are chicks. Wait for one of them to admit that.

    Parent
    I wonder what Al Hunt's wife (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:05:43 AM EST
    Judy Woodruff who used to anchor at CNN now at PBS thinks of what he wrote or his daughter. No mention of that. Had the same atrocities been inflicted and said and did would he feel the same or feel the need to defend them or would he call them "whiny" too!!!

    BTD, I thank you for keeping this issue alive. (5.00 / 4) (#132)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:13:16 AM EST
    I don't know what else to say right now.  I really think you could compile these posts into a book, but at the very least, keep them for your daughter.  It's people like you who will change the way this country thinks about gender.  She'll be proud of you.

    BTD, what do you think of the Obama (5.00 / 4) (#140)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:19:49 AM EST
    campaign's attempt to use sexism to get votes for him? I'm referring to the legions of Obama bloggers and commenters who are now saying that Clinton supporters should vote Obama because McCain is such a sexist pig.
    Because this is so pervasive and because it appeared so suddenly, there's no question in my mind that this comes from the Obama campaign itself.


    The "sweetie" brigade... (5.00 / 8) (#145)
    by northeast73 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:23:10 AM EST
    ...was hired after his comment to the reporter, coinciding with his ever diminishing appeal to women.

    Their job?  Use fear-mongering to get women to vote for him.

    Classy.

    Parent

    Someone here was arguing that (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:28:25 AM EST
    we have to attack McCain's character.
    The obvious implication to me was that the Obama campaign also knew it "had" to attack Clinton's character as well.
    Yes, I know I'm inferring something from one comment, but it is the whole bloc of similar comments, springing up overnight like mushrooms, which convince me of the root system that lies beneath.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 3) (#161)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:36:19 AM EST
    The internet campaign is centrally controlled.

    I 'm pretty damn sure of it.

    Also there is a point about McCain: you are seeing his service record get battered (fair enough we have a campaign to win and he's the opponent).  But, while this tac may have worked to damage Kerry when Dean fought Kerry, and when Dean had to discredit Clark among a peacenic voting base, it will not work on McCain because the average american voter has some limited level of respect for a loyal soldier.  It's funny because McCain is the one GOP candidate who is not a chickenhawk. I only wish that Cheney were running this year. Oh how I wish they werre running a draft dodger.

    Parent

    This is why (5.00 / 4) (#171)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:42:37 AM EST
    people think Obama's campaign is stuck.

    They are going from "but-but-but CLINTON!" to "but-but-but MCCAIN!" with barely a pause for breath.

    It's a strategy that only worked against Clinton because of the sexism plus HDS that the Obamans pretend not to see.

    If the Obamans continue this strategy, we will see who the real media darling is in very short order.

    Parent

    he ought to simply (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:31:15 AM EST
    say that things got overheated in the middle of a close fought campaign, and that he's committed to sexual equality underneath all the aggression.

    Will that fly?  lol

    Parent

    Of course it would, because it would be (5.00 / 5) (#159)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:35:14 AM EST
    believable.
    I'm hearing a different message though, which is that Obama has nothing to be sorry for.

    Parent
    he could say (5.00 / 3) (#165)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:39:05 AM EST
    that the circumstances of the two candidacies were historically unprescidented and various mistakes were made by both campaigns. He's humbly sorry for stepping on various toes.  No deep harm was ever intended. But he's more like Bush than we can ever know.

    Parent
    that what I am getting. (5.00 / 3) (#170)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:42:29 AM EST
    also
    I just got this from Howard:

    We've just seen two brilliant candidates run the most exciting primary in decades.  Now we need to come together and finish the job.

    I'm looking forward to it.

    *

    I emailed Howard back (I know you probably cant reply to the email) and told him I am looking forward to *him looking for a job.


    Parent

    that didnt work exactly right (none / 0) (#173)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:43:29 AM EST
    preview is our friend.

    Parent
    You're hearing a message? (none / 0) (#192)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:58:50 AM EST
    From whom are you hearing the message that Obama and his campaign have nothing to be sorry for? From Obama and his campaign?

    Parent
    From Obama and his campaign (none / 0) (#199)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:06:07 AM EST
    certainly not.
    they are to smart for that.  

    Parent
    Wrong (none / 0) (#172)
    by 1jane on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:42:57 AM EST
    I receive all their stuff and all the Clinton stuff. MarkL there is no plan to "use" sexism, it has never been mentioned. It is obvious and has been obvious to most voters that the Republican Party is rife with sexism in their platform and policies. Go on line and read the RNC stances, it won't take long. There is nothing sudden about folks realizing the Republican Party has ignored women's issues. There is even a branch of Republican women who broke from their party back in the 70"s and continues to this day to fight for reproductive rights and other "women's issues" within the Republican ranks. There is a very clear and deliberate strategy in place within the Obama campaign to take back America. It is registering new voters, working in all 50 states, pushing hard in the battleground states, and educating voters regarding McCain's voting record and his 95% votes with Bush's agenda.

    Parent
    Oh spare me! (5.00 / 7) (#179)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:47:45 AM EST
    There is a very deliberate strategy in place within the Obama campaign to make Barack Obama the next president of the United States.....end of goals!  The Obama campaign used the misogyny and sexism to benefit their own campaign and never even spoke out against it when any leader of the Democratic party should have been outraged, and now I'm supposed to believe that Obama is a champion for women?  Fricken Spare Me!

    Parent
    Gender equity (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by 1jane on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:12:23 AM EST
    As a woman who's traveled the US since the 70's speaking on gender equity issues and as a woman who broke a glass ceiling in the profession I retired from I know how long and hard the fight is against sexism. Clinton ended her historic bid for the presidency not because of sexism but because her campaign made several lethal tactical errors beginning back in Iowa when she came in third. She shattered barriers on behalf of my daughter and women everywhere who now know that there are no limits to their dreams. There are idotiotic horrible statements by voters, bloggers, and pundits on both sides of the campaign. I applaud Clinton for being a trailblazer. I applaud Obama for being a trailblazer. Clinton's main goal now is to heal the rift in the party, just as it is Obama's goal to heal the rift in the party...a party that cleaved Democrats by gender, race and class. Clinton wants the paths to merge and Obama wants the paths to merge. Our goal now is to defeat the Republican's and take back our country.

    Parent
    When I hear phrases like... (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:55:31 AM EST
    "take back America", my eyes roll.

    Slogans are the enemy of individual thought.

    Parent

    when the pundits (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:55:47 AM EST
    mentioned that racial civil rights were constitutionally resolved (slavery?)before womens suffrage, and that feminism was predated by MLK, they were hinting at their own preference system.  it's an odd construct to justify what they did in the press to her.

    The UK has had a female PM. So have the Phillipines  and Germany.  even Pakistan.  Malaysia too. The French socialists picked Segoline Royale happily enough.

    America has a deeply nasty version of political mysogyny that doesn't exist in most of the western industrial world and various pockets of the third world.

    Parent

    the most important question is (none / 0) (#203)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:11:36 AM EST
    who or what are they "taking it back" for?


    Parent
    Did I miss Al's (5.00 / 4) (#141)
    by standingup on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:20:36 AM EST
    editorial explaining how ridiculous it was to accuse the Clintons of being racist?  Did Al use Stephanie Tubbs Jones, Charlie Rangel, Sheila Jackson Lee, Maya Angelou, Emanuel Cleaver as examples to make the point the Clintons could not be racists?

     

    Sexism (5.00 / 4) (#148)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:25:47 AM EST
    The media can no more admit to its' sexist bias than it can to its' complicity in the selling of the war in Iraq.

    Another example I have just witnessed is the treatment of women players in the French Open in Paris. The women's final was broadcast, as was the men's. For the women's final, the commentators talked non-stop throughout - even during play.
    They even featured a recorded interview with the men finalists which began after the 1st set - and went through until after the first game of the second set. They didn't even offer a split screen for those of us who were interested in seeing the unfolding of the match.

    For the men's final, which turned out to have far less drama, the talking heads maintained a respectful silence during play.

    I know that this is but a minor example of sexism in the media, but it is so unconscious that it is alarming to me. Since examples such as this go by largely unnoticed or commented upon, I do think it leaves the door open for the raging sexism foisted upon the person whom I feel was the superior candidate.

    womens tennis is better than mens. (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:40:37 AM EST
    The srervice game of the mens game has basically ruined it's entertainment value.   The women should be opaid more than the men at this point.

    I used to attend wimbledon regularly.  now It's unbearable to watch the big servers.

    Parent

    and... (5.00 / 0) (#183)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:50:51 AM EST
    It has also been a tradition that the men's final is played as the grand finale. The women's final is played the day before.
    To be fair, they should alternate.

    It has taken eons for them to give equal pay to women players. I'm not sure if this is universally true even today.

    I would agree with you that the women have far more interesting and diverse games than the men these days, but one has to respect the greatness of an individual player like Federer who is an artist, not a brute.

    Parent

    I wandered over to the big orange... (5.00 / 5) (#181)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:48:35 AM EST
    ...to look at their post mortem on Clinton's loss. Mostly it was simply "Clinton sucked and Obama rocked", which was predictable. But one writer actually dared to suggest that the sexism in the system had impacted Clinton's campaign. The responses were discouraging. Some actually did agree that sexism was inappropriate, but a lot, I will say even most, of the responses were more along the lines of "Well, it didn't effect the election, so who cares?". It's as if partisanship in favor of a particular candidate, or perhaps against a female, took precendence over simply decency. The idea that sexism is okay seems to be prevalent among young people, whose attitude is "it's just not cool to complain about it". I don't know how we'll get past this.

    BTD has nothing to complain about. (5.00 / 0) (#205)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:12:55 AM EST
    BTD complains about people not addressing the point of many a post.

    He's got nothing on Trapper John's post where I'd guess at least 30% ignored the "Ugly sexism happened." theme and instead jumped straight to "Sexism wasn't why Hillary lost, IACF!".

    Cafeteria Progressives?  At least Cafeteria Catholics have a common faith to unite them.  What holds Cafeteria Progressives together?

    Parent

    If they think this is whiney, just wait (5.00 / 0) (#188)
    by Sunshine on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:55:14 AM EST
    I intend to whine all the way to November and past... In fact, I may whine until 2012...

    In ny view, it was never about sexism. (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by WillBFair on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:05:03 AM EST
    It's about the media and far left. The former don't want knowledgeable people in the presidency. The latter are obsessively self righteous. No one is every good or pure enough for them, and they were cherry picking the Clinton's fantabulous record long before this.
    Even now, Conason has an ok piece in salon asking for unity, although he spins the primary as fair, which itself is an insult to our intelligence. And comments from the bots are still full of insults.
    Well, consider the source, as my dear Aunt Dorothy used to say.
    But we do need to unite. And maybe the best way to do that is to accept that a lot of folk simply don't get people as smart as the Clintons. They feel threatened by things they don't understand and react with sneers and insults.
    http://a-civilife.blogspot.com


    Is that you, SemperUnitas? (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by tree on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:13:36 AM EST
    Back under a new name yet again?

    Women don't have political ambition? (5.00 / 4) (#213)
    by BluestBlue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:23:40 AM EST
    Sure they do. They just see the cost they will forced to pay if they work towards those goals and often try another path.

    They know people like Al and the rest of the media will do exactly what Al and the rest of th media are doing (and have done) to Hillary.

    They will tell jokes about her appearance, question her femininity, challenge her motherhood and mothering skills. They will complain her voice is shrill.

    They will say that she sounds like their first wife outside the the divorce court. Sound familiar? This is one of Chris Matthews constant chatterboxes. This guy's wife couldn't stand him and he can't see the truth of why she left him. HE probably drove HER crazy with his sexist drivel and "rules" about what was appropriate for her to do, what money she could spend, you get the picture! I've "left" this bozo too... fortunately for me I just had to not stop at MSNBC anymore. It took more work for her to get rid of his sorry carcass.

    They will say that she emasculates men. That they  instinctively cross their legs when she speaks. Of course that last one was from another of Matthews "little" friends. Maybe since he was so petite and  his voice wasn't very low he had his manhood questioned a few too many times. Aren't you glad you aren't his wife!

    You get the picture. I'm sure Al's daughter would never try politics, she is probably continually rolling her eyes at what her father says, but she gets the message he sends. Be a nice litte girl and make daddy proud. Don't rock the boat. Don't be ambitious. Sad the limitations they place on their own daughters.

    Sad the limitations they try to place on over half the population.

    Good thing fewer women are listening to them.

    Hillary is right. We should be looking forward and looking for women to run for office.

    Consider it for yourself and encourage others you think would be good in office. We know women succeed at the same rate as men when they run, and we know people like Al wouldn't say that if it wasn't blatantly true... they couldn't get away with a lie that data clearly could prove them wrong. They just try to undermine the women who attempt as an object lesson to those that might try.

    So make sure to support your local women candidates. Remember they need more encouragement than the men since, just like when we were in school we had to do better, fight harder, and achieve more for the same recognition!

    I beg to differ (5.00 / 5) (#214)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:31:24 AM EST
    You said:

    There's nothing the Democratic Party can do to lessen racism and sexism.  They are "thought" that can't be banned or controlled by rules and laws.  Yes, they should be identified when they are expressed, and society on whole needs to become more aware and sensitive.  However, you can't halt political campaigns to exorcise demons every time one pops up its ugly head.

    Overall, the Democratic Party is much better about these problems.  The GOP, by definition, is the preferred party of racial and gender bigots.  Not all Republicans are bigots, but I find that most bigots I meet are Republicans.

    So, if sexism or racism are important issues for somebody, then he or she would be behooved to support Barack Obama and the party instead of tearing them down.

    Would you really have us believe that if the Democratic party, in the form of its leaders and members of Congress and candidates, did not act as role models against any of the "isms" that nothing would change?  I mean, how do you think we managed to make as much progress as we have against these things?  Would you really have us believe that if prominent members of the party - including Barack Obama - had forcefully and vocally pushed back against the sexism that it would have continued to flourish during this campaign?

    Why was "the Speech" on race considered such a watershed event in this campaign, and why was there such a concerted effort to stop the most overt and egregious examples of racism?

    Of course the party cannot control what people think, but what effect would there have been if every public face of the party had gone on every talking head and news show and confronted people about the sexism, had pushed back, had defended not just Hillary Clinton, but women in general?

    And what if Barack Obama had not been a major contributor to the effort to demean Hillary because of her gender?  What if he had come to her defense?

    I think there has been a growing feeling that maybe the Democratic Party is not the standard-bearer on issues of gender that people used to think it was - and this was the campaign that changed that.

    And, I'm sorry, if Barack Obama cannot hold himself to the same standards on sxism that he expects everyone else to hold to on racism, then I have to question whether his stated belief in equality only lasts until a pesky woman gets in his way.

    Suddenly, the MCM has discovered sexism in the (5.00 / 7) (#215)
    by jawbone on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:45:30 AM EST
    primary, but it is not exactly the same sexism some of us saw and heard. They tend to see it from "others," Hillary's opponents' supporters, and, oh, the odd vendor of nutcrackers. Rarely, the Boyz at MessNBC are mentioned.

    It's the new hot topic to be discussed on the MCM and then dispatched down the Memory Hole. That's what all these little discussions, for the most part, are about: Say something, do not embroil Big MCMers in the issue, and move on.

    On WNYC's public radio discussion show this morning, The Brian Lehrer Show, third segment (available as a podcast), three women commenters were asked to give their opinions of what happened, why had Hillary suddenly discussed sexism is society in her concession speech on Saturday?

    Slate's Dahlia Lithwick, Nation magazine columnist and Columbia law professor Patricia Williams, and Katha Pollitt, Nation magazine columnist "talked about Hillary Clinton's Saturday speech and her campaign's impact on women and the feminist movement."  

    All three were asked to disclose their primary picks, now that the primary was over: All three said they were strong supporters of Obama, albeit Wilson said she had initially been torn bcz she knew Hillary from her college days. One of the non-Wilson women said that 90% of the women she knew supported Obama.

    The big take away is that Hillary failed in presenting sexism as an issue.

    Among other things discussed were that Hillary did not connect with younger femininsts (? how many are there who call themselves that?), that she did not use her run for the presidency to bring up sexism, that at first she ran as a man, that she had not discussed the "intersection" between sexism and Jane Crow laws. A caller, iirc, did say that when Hillary made the smallest mention of being a woman, she was savagely belittled by the MCM. No one mentioned how the MCM reacted when she simply said that attending the all-women's Wellesley (in a speech given at the college, btw) had prepared her for the all-men's presidential primary club, but her mention of being asked policy and tricky questions first was mentioned as a negative for how she handled things.

    Get it? It's all her fault.

    Get the picture? These three people, two who work full time in the lower reaches of the MCM and one who works in academia (Columbia, not Princeton as I had written weeks ago when I mentioned that Wilson was definitely in the Obama camp, but played an objective commenter on WNYC) and writing for The Nation, first and foremost blamed Hillary for not concentrating on sexism, sexism and racism, and racism issues in her campaign.  This about the candidate who did attend Black political conferences which Obama chose to not attend! And guess what? Obama was post-racial so he didn't need to talk about race until he was forced to by the nasty, mean MCM bringing up the minister of his.

    So, is the press whining? Yes, they are.

    Is the MCM spinning their own role in this? Why, yes, they are!

    Sidenote: Woman prof called in to say her students, except for Latinas who were for Hillary, were madly enthusiastic about Obama, that he had been branded exceptionally well (cool, metropolitan), and the kids bought into him as part of their consumerism.  His campaign had "cooler" things, buttons people could collect and trade. Hillary had missed a big means of connecting with young people by not have "cool things" for them to buy!

    Your worst nightmare may be comeing true. "The Candidate" comes to life, and as in the film the lead is sold well and will ask, "Now what?"


    "Stop Whining" is what you say when (4.63 / 11) (#83)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:33:54 AM EST
    you want to immediately devalue whatever it is they are upset or concerned about, so from that point on, the "whiner" is on the defensive - and nothing he or she says will take the conversation to the level it needs to be to get the attention it deserves.

    It all reminds me of the trick that still gets pulled on women: "hey, it must be that time of the month" which relegates everything we say to emotional hysteria that has no basis in reality - it's just hormones, you know.  Once we get past the child-bearing years, we get "wow, menopause has really sent you over the edge," so they get us no matter where we are hormonally.

    And yes, it makes us angry, because it's how men belittle and demean us - and why it was so easy to recognize in the campaign.  And now, they are compounding the problem by making this all about how we perceived it, not what they intended - I mean, how could rational men possibly have meant anything bad by what was said - it must just be that women are too...sensitive.  

    Why not vote for McCain, then? (1.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Mad Donkey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:33:45 AM EST
    I believe the only way to get the attention of the Democratic Party is by withholding my vote and encouraging other women to do the same.  

    I don't want to get into trouble for saying this, but why not vote for McCain? My site talks about reasons why the normal reasons for fearing Republicans (ie, court appointments) are not in play this year.

    Not voting and allowing the Dems to win won't send a message. Doing your best to support the other guy will do a lot to get the message across.

    I'm not angry at the party for their sexism (which is not to say it doesn't exist). I think the superdelegates supported Obama because they hated Clinton and wanted to create a separate power base that would benefit their own situation, regardless of the problems an Obama presidency would create for the country. So I'm angry at the Democrats for nominating a manifestly unaccomplished (and way too liberal) candidate and expecting me to vote for him simply because he's got a (D) next to his name.

    For me, resolving this is simple: I'm voting for McCain and doing what I can to convince others to do the same, because I want the Democrats to understand that they can't count on me just because of that (D).

    I understand that women who are angry because of gender discrimination have a tougher call to make. Nonetheless, when you consider the relatively few differences that a president can make directly, I think it's worth voting for McCain to punish the party even on gender grounds. Remember, Congress will have a Democratic majority. Anything you wanted will be achievable through Congress--and anything you worry about with McCain can be stopped by that same Congress.

    Not voting McCain (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by stxabuela on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:36 AM EST
    I think the Republican Party is worse than the Democratic Party on women's issues.  At least the Republicans are honest about their position.  

    McCain will take Texas regardless of how I vote.  Right now, I plan to vote for the Green Party, if Cynthia McKinney wins the party nomination.  I will be voting for Rick Noriega, the Democrat running against Cornyn for US Senate.  

    Do you think voting for McCain will cause the Democratic Party to actually DO something about equality for women, or will the Dems just revert to TALKING about their support of women's issues?  If I really thought my vote for the Republican would cause a lasting change in the Democratic Party, I'd do it.  Unfortunately, I don't see that happening, so I'd rather vote for the candidate of a progressive party, particularly a female.  That's why voting for McKinney is attractive to me.  

    Parent

    I am with you on this (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by befuddledvoter on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:39:23 AM EST
    I simply cannot support the democratic nominee for president now.  The only power I hold is my vote.  DNC is a runaway train.  They wanted to purge people like me anyway so, hey, they have.  Let them rely on the "yutes" and the AA's and the "creative class."    

    Parent
    Not a bad idea (none / 0) (#135)
    by Sunshine on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:17:09 AM EST
    McCain would not be able to renew the Bush tax breaks if we have a Democratic Congress and Senate...  

    Parent
    Judy (none / 0) (#6)
    by cmugirl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:56:32 AM EST
    should set him straight at home.  How can SHE - a professional newscaster herself, let him get away with this stuff?

    But she's a successful (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:00:58 AM EST
    professional newscaster - which proves that gender inequity is a thing of the past!  According to Al Hunt - all you need to do is to point out a handful of successful women in persistently male dominated professions and you have prove gender inequity no longer exists!

    Parent
    Fair point n/t (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by cmugirl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:04:55 AM EST
    may I just say (4.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:35:40 AM EST
    I have always considered Al Hunt a major knob.
    I sort of liked Judy but my respect for  her has always been a bit muted because she is married to Al.
    similar but not nearly as much as my respect for Carville is dulled by  his marriage.

    Parent
    Sort of like (none / 0) (#217)
    by 1040su on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 01:32:18 PM EST
    because Bush had Colin Powell & has Condi in his administration, that proves the Reupublican party isn't racist?

    Parent
    Hillary video (none / 0) (#99)
    by This from a broad on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:48:02 AM EST
    I put a video on my blog today, called "why Hillary lost the primary".  I also sent this video to Al Hunt.  Be warned -- it will disgust and enrage you.

    where is you blog? (none / 0) (#136)
    by northeast73 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:17:26 AM EST
    I am collecting media-bias, sexism videos to help keep me enraged thru november.  No snark intended, really.

    Parent
    Thank you for calling attention to (none / 0) (#211)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:18:44 AM EST
    this video. It outraged me! I sent it with a note to everyone I know along with Al Hunt's article. I think every news outlet, journalists everywhere should see this video. It is a very important part of this country's history. Men do not like strong women, men see women as parts...it hasn't changed!!! We've come a long way baby?

    Parent
    Whatever they want to call it, it wasn't right (none / 0) (#216)
    by Sunshine on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 12:17:08 PM EST
    When did you ever hear the media talk so much about the "likeability factor" or "she is more polarizing?".... Since when is it up to the media to inform us as to who we should like...  I find most of them polarizing and their likeability factor is somewhere around zero...  Shouldn't that be reason enough for them to get a bus and throw them under it?

    Hillary didn't face sexism? (none / 0) (#218)
    by bowchikabowbow on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 03:11:24 PM EST
    Well I'd say that most of the media wasn't sexist. but to suggest that she faced no sexism is ridiculous. All you have to do is watch the following videos to see that she certainly did face some sexism in the media.

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200611090002
    http://mediamatters.org/items/200710040003
    http://mediamatters.org/items/200703270007

    Obama/Whoever 08!