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Children Left Behind

Whether or not it makes sense to require eighth grade students to take algebra, as California will now do, the state's effort to comply with the No Child Left Behind Act raises a bigger issue. Sure, a basic understanding of science and math is useful, and exposure to those subjects (at least with good teachers) may encourage kids to explore fields that they didn't realize were of interest to them.

But as important as science and math may be, isn't it equally important for students to understand the basic structure of government and to have a fundamental grasp of the United States Constitution? Aren't children being left behind if they don't know that the Constitution protects rights and imposes limits upon governmental authority? What is the purpose of a law that focuses on "core" subjects like reading and math while neglecting a subject that is equally important to a functioning democracy: the workings of American government and the role that voters are supposed to play in shaping it?

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    In Texas, students entering High (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by zfran on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:43:47 PM EST
    School this coming school year will be required to take additional math/science. One of the problems as I see it is that here, because of No Child Left Behind, kids are taught to the state testing, not all the material of the subject. As for teaching of the Constitution...our history classes in this country do not begin with our country. By the time we get to America, they are older and bored. At 10-13, they don't know what the word "constitutional" means because they haven't studied the constitution. I had a good public school education, my children did not. Luckily, for them, I did!!!

    There would be a lot more.... (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:45:45 PM EST
    time to teach civics and history without all the standardized tests.  They were "teaching for the test" back in my day, with "no child left behind" I bet its even worse now.  Even with the tests I remember learning about the Revolution, the Constitution and Bill of Rights as far back as 2nd or 3rd grade.  It's as important to an educated free society as learning reading and math.

    But you don't have to wait for the state to do something about it...read the Bill of Rights to your kids, and teach them how important it is to preserve freedom.  It's time well spent.

    In high school (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:49:22 PM EST
    we had a mandatory American Government test, with a required statewide test they gave at the end of the semester.  The day before the test, our teacher sat there and read every single question and answer to us.  Not exactly kosher, of course, but that's how "teaching to the test" often works in the real world!  And so our whole class got certified as being super-knowledgeable in the ways of American Government.

    Parent
    I'm in CA (none / 0) (#6)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:55:26 PM EST
    They had a long section on the constitution and govt.  Yes, they have to take the test, but they also did a play, made a video of the reading etc, to expand they also had mock trials.  Of course, this is at a charter high school where they not only do the requirements for graduation, they do a little extra.

    Parent
    If you're my age... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by dianem on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:11:06 PM EST
    ...you learned about the Bill of Rights and the Constitution through "School House Rock".

    Parent
    School House Rock (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:51:53 PM EST
    which, FYI, I just downloaded on my iPod from iTunes.  Now I've got "Interplanet Janet" an "Conjunction Junction" running through my head!

    Parent
    Oh my god, (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:29:36 PM EST
    I'm just a bill, sitting here on Capitol Hill

    That was a great little spot of cartoons in between the shows on Saturday AM (ABC if I remember).  Yup, it sure was helpful and came to mind yesterday.

    The other one I liked was Yuk Mouth....if ya don't brush!  Covered personal hygiene.

    Parent

    I use several "School House Rock" (none / 0) (#58)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:24:32 PM EST
    clips, especially this one on how a bill becomes a law, in my college classes -- and students really do get a good grasp with this silly song in their heads, as it has been in ours for a generation.

    Note:  This does need to be amended by the instructor, as it were, for use in discussing the Constitution.  That is where I use it, exactly because so few college students understand this.  So I amend it, as it were, to explain that there is a further stage of approval aka ratification for Constitutional amendments.

    I also use -- yes! at last it is on Youtube -- the great "School House Rock" clip called "Sufferin' for Suffrage."  Of course, it also has a few shortcomings, but also easily fixed . . . and it's worth it, as students today get such a kick from seeing the cartoon characters in bell bottoms. :-)

    And yes, I also use "Conjunction Junction" ("what's your function? putting together words and phrases. . . .") and other writing clips as called for by students' papers.  I have yet to find anything, though, that really embeds the real test of maturity: correct use of the apostrophe.

    Parent

    That and teach by doing. (4.66 / 3) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:58:27 PM EST
    I'm proud to say, probably motivated by my time here on TL, this year I was very involved in getting a state law passed here in Cali (which expands CA citizen's rights you'll be happy to hear I'm sure) and was instrumental in saving some of my town's fast-disappearing natural open space from development.

    My kids were involved in both efforts and now understand how a bill becomes a law, how our state and city gvts work, and that they can make a difference.

    Kind of self-congratulatory I guess, but the main point is we learn best by doing. So get out there with your kids and do something.

    I'll get off my soapbox now...

    Parent

    Very glad to hear it.... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:23:02 PM EST
    and very good advice sarc.  

    Allow me to congratulate you...if you were involved I know it must have been a very reasonable proposal.  

    Parent

    The governors' needs for workers (none / 0) (#14)
    by scribe on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:14:26 PM EST
    include their being capable of handling math and science.

    From the governors' perspective, the workers only need to learn constitutional law and civics if, as you say, the governors decide we need "an educated free society".

    Said another way, learning reading and math is necessary but civics and constitutional law are only required if you want the proles asking questions and insisting on their "rights".  Better to educate them that "do as you are told" is the only thing they need to know to be a good citizen.

    Parent

    Well said scribe.... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:25:27 PM EST
    we need to decide as a society if we want public education or public indoctrination.  Right now we are leaning heavily towards indoctrination.

    Parent
    You are right (none / 0) (#56)
    by BernieO on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:22:09 PM EST
    I've been harping on this for years. It's not just the governors, it's the shift in our mindset to worshipping capitalism, profits, etc. We used to be about democracy but that shifted during the cold war.(Just think of our support for the dictator Pinochet over a democratically elected socialist.) We are now all about capitalism as an end in itself, rather than in the service of democracy. Reagan finally managed to elevate the "greed is good" philosophy of free market fundamentalism to our implicit national motto.

    So now when we discuss the role of schools we think of them not as places for preparing kids for citizenship in our democracy, as they were first designed, but only as places to turn out workers for. Corporate America is not concerned with producing people who are well informed about their government and apt to become politically active. They want well-trained worker bees, hence the emphasis on literacy, science and math but not civics. That is the only way they will support funding the schools. We seem to forget that Nazi Germany had no shortage of people who were highly educated in these fields, proving this kind of learning, while important, is no guarantee of a healthy democracy.
    Just imagine how hard it would be to manipulate the American public on things like the meaning of the Constitution the way the right wing does if we took civics education seriously. There is no way the FISA bill would have passed if people had a solid understanding of the constitutional issues involved.
    There seems to be a growing concern over this problem. Richard Dreyfuss has been speaking up on this issue in recent years. There are also conservatives like Diane Ravitch who are concerned about it. Sandra Day O'Connor complained that No Child Left Behind has squeezed out civics education. She has been working on a civics ed project called Our Courts, which is designing an interactive video game which will teach middle school kids about the workings of our courts.
    We do have a national civics test as part of the National Assessment of Educational Progress, but these tests are not reported on for individual students or for schools, as far as I know, and they carry no consequences the way No Child does.  (This is because the far right was so freaked out over these tests being a part of a move toward a one-world government that the Feds were afraid to make these tests have any significance beyond having a national test for monitoring our ed system.)
    When I bring up the need for better civics ed with parents and teachers these days most of them think I an talking about teaching kids to volunteer in soup kitchens or be more considerate. I have to explain that without a citizens with a solid understanding of how our government works our democracy is seriously threatened.  This is an issue we all should get involved in if we want to see our democracy survive.

    Parent

    Well thankfully for you those worker bees (none / 0) (#74)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 12:47:54 AM EST
    created an avenue by which you could post your rants. That way the brainwashed yutes of today can see the light of truth you cast from under your bushel basket.

    Parent
    I grew up in... (none / 0) (#24)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:04:42 PM EST
    ...Iowa, so we were always (and I mean always) taking the Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS).  Yet, somehow we were taught social studies, civics and American history too.

    I remember a teacher offered a monetary reward to anyone of us who could find mention of the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII in any of our textbooks.  I didn't feel bad taking his money as it took me quite awhile to find it.    

    Parent

    Sounds like a great teacher Mile.... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:09:42 PM EST
    the great ones are able to juggle the demands of the bueracracy in regards to test scores and actually teach worthwhile things that aren't on the stupid tests.

    Parent
    The thing is... (none / 0) (#28)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:16:57 PM EST
    ...he was more the norm rather than the exception.  Iowans, in general, placed an extremely high value on education (or at least back in my day).  

    I'm not sure when or why things changed from educating to babysitting, but it is certainly not a change for the better.  

    Parent

    It ain't all the state's fault either..... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:24:11 PM EST
    when parents treat schools like free daycare centers and don't take an active role in their child's education, it's no wonder schools start looking like daycare centers.

    Parent
    Yep... (none / 0) (#40)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:06:43 PM EST
    ...it takes teachers (and community) that care about and are committed to educating, parents that take an active roll in making sure their kids are getting a quality education and kids that want to learn.  

    Parent
    My older (none / 0) (#34)
    by pie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:47:46 PM EST
    daughter went to high school in Ames.  She had a fabulous education.  Her teachers were incredible - not a bad one in the bunch.  Her senior class had 22 National Merit Finalists that year.  I was less impressed with the middle school, but I guess that goes with the territory.

    The attitude was different.  Being smart was cool.

    Parent

    Back when I was a kid in the fifties, (none / 0) (#75)
    by weltec2 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 03:23:41 AM EST
    the cold war was very much in the air and the Eisenhauer administration did a very interesting thing. I believe this was 1957ish -- someone will correct me now; that's okay, I'd appreciate a more specific date -- they made an ad, I'll never forget it, which started with scenes of Soviet university students studying long hours at physics and chemistry and math; then there was an immediate cut-away to American kids dancing on American Bandstand.

    That's all there was: Dick Clark and dancing children. Then it was back to I Love Lucy. That government ad program had a profound effect on young college kids at the time. Majors took a dramatic shift from the Arts & Humanities to the Sciences. The original idea, so I've been told, came from Life Magazine.

    Parent

    I am from Minnesota (none / 0) (#31)
    by eric on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:35:09 PM EST
    and even we had to take what we called the "Iowa Basics".  Probably the same tests.  Good tests, I guess.

    Parent
    I had a Current American Problems (none / 0) (#32)
    by zfran on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:40:07 PM EST
    teacher who used to sit us in a semi-circle and told us we were entitled to speak up with our opinions if they were different from what he was discussing. I always remembered him and admired that he respected us loly high schoolers.

    Parent
    I agree with you in principle (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by davnee on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:56:16 PM EST
    But history and civics are different from math/science/languages in that they don't need to be taught in every grade and in a knowledge-building sequence.  You can alternate history/civics/economics/sociology etc. by semester and year, but kids really need language, math and science every year.  And I say this as a teacher of political science, who witnesses firsthand every day what a miserable job our schools do of producing informed citizens.  But to be honest, I'd rather be charged with bringing critical thinkers up to speed on the facts of citizenship, than have kids come to me able to recite the bill of rights and yet have no appreciation for its meaning or how it translates into their daily lives because they lack basic intellectual tools.

    Just to add (none / 0) (#9)
    by davnee on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:59:14 PM EST
    That if we didn't waste time teaching to standardized tests, there would probably be time to offer our kids the sort of balanced education they deserve.

    Parent
    I generally agree we need less standardized (none / 0) (#44)
    by vicndabx on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:37:20 PM EST
    tests, but how else do we gauge progress across a broad spectrum of students?  There needs to be a way to determine if kids are actually learning the skills they need for the future to be competitive w/other countries - particularly with the computer revolution we're in.  I remember reading on the NY Times website some months ago (back b4 they lost me w/all their partisan editorials) that we as a nation rank somewhere near the bottom in terms of reading and math among industrialized nations.  Hence one of the reasons so many technical jobs are being given to people from India & China via H1B-visas or outsourcing.

    Parent
    I think this used to be true (none / 0) (#76)
    by weltec2 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 03:51:32 AM EST
    but its not anymore. I believe that we are in a critical time when knowledge of economics is a must for those who wish to survive. Both Obama and McCain lean toward Chicago School libertarianism. It's just a question of degree.

    Obama, I suspect, is closer to Jeffrey Sachs' idealism. Read Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism. The historical part you probably already recall from high school, but the economic foundations of what happened... Klein is most helpful with that.

    The thing about Klein is that, most of it you remember from reading about it in newspapers and magazines at that time. But then she puts it together so nicely and fills in the gaps. For me it was my book of the year in '07. I had so many notes and cross-references written in my paperback that it fell apart and I had to buy the hardback.

    Parent

    Because the goal is to (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by eric on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:47:46 PM EST
    teach children to work and be productive, not to think.  Thinking leads to nasty things like dissent.

    Way back when (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:04:51 PM EST
    Back in the 50s and 60s, when I was in school, Illinois required 8th graders to pass tests on the US Constitution, the Illinois Constitution, and flag history and etiquette. We then has to pass the tests again in 12th grade.

    In grade school we had a year of US history and a year of civics. In high school, another year of US history and a semester of government.

    I don't think Illinois was alone in requiring this education. Of course, the fear of the communists scourge inspired some of these requirements, the thinking being that if we knew how amazing democracy was we would never fall to the Reds. The fear of the godless commies has subsided, but surely there is still value to be had from an informed citizenry.

    In the 60's (FL) (none / 0) (#49)
    by PamFl on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:54:58 PM EST
    we were required to take algebra I in 8th grade, algebra II in 9th grade, & geometry in 10th grade.
    Additionally, all 10th graders were required to take Civics-American Government, 1st semester; FL., Government 2nd semester.
    There were yearly "Achievment Tests", which were indicative of student progress.
    Why not teach the subjects instead of the test? I don't understand that logic.
    BTW-there were no "social promotions" in the ole days. You had to pass or go to summer school. If you didn't pass in summer school, you weren't promoted to the next grade.

    Parent
    My History Teacher (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:54:15 PM EST
    Allowed to you bring notes on dates. He didn't care if you knew when it happend, He was concerned that you knew why. Best teacher I ever had.

    Exactly: why and how are the (none / 0) (#59)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:27:54 PM EST
    important questions.  And taking notes into a test is often useful at quelling test anxiety, too -- so students can really show what they have learned.

    Plus, the goal is for them to learn it by the end, and the very process of prepping test notes with the who, what, where, when -- as well as the process of taking the test itself -- can accomplish that.  Good  teacher you had there.  

    Parent

    In my opinion (4.66 / 3) (#10)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:00:02 PM EST
    you could throw out all the standardized tests and lectures if you just did one thing: bring back Schoolhouse Rock.

    My wife, who is a few years younger than me, never had the pleasure.  I astounded her the other day by being able to recite the entire Preamble to the Constitution from memory.  Of course, like many of you I suspect, I had to sing it.

    Tellingly, it was cancelled in 2001 (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by eric on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:17:18 PM EST
    From wiki:
    Schoolhouse Rock! is a series of animated musical educational short films that aired during Saturday morning children's programming on U.S. television network ABC. Topics covered include grammar, science, economics, history, mathematics, and politics. The series aired between 1973 and 1986, and infrequently during the 1990s and 2000s, with new shows created between 1993 and 1996 until its cancellation by ABC in 2001

    2001 was really a bad year for this country.

    Parent

    Conjunction Junction (none / 0) (#33)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:40:16 PM EST
    See my post above (none / 0) (#36)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:52:59 PM EST
    You can download them on iTunes.

    Parent
    And most are on a DVD (none / 0) (#60)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:29:31 PM EST
    for some time now, and many are on YouTube, at last.  I was waiting for that to be able to click through fast in my classes and was so happy to see just the ones I wanted as of last fall. :-)

    Parent
    Too bad (none / 0) (#70)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 06:35:00 PM EST
    iTunes didn't have the Women's Suffrage one though. Boo Hiss.

    Parent
    Schoolhouse Rock was genius (none / 0) (#12)
    by davnee on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:08:09 PM EST
    It had a huge effect on me.  We need to give our kids a good dose of history and civics when they are really young.  Then they have some sense of what they are witnessing as politics happens all around them.

    Parent
    It was done by advertising geniuses (none / 0) (#61)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:30:38 PM EST
    from Madison Avenue who saw, in raising their own kids, that jingles stuck when facts from school didn't.  Its genesis is a great story.

    Parent
    Good call.... (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:16:59 PM EST
    Who could forget "Schoolhouse Rock"?

    Wasn't "Excercise Your Choppers" part of the Schoolhouse Rock series?  I'll never forget that singing stalk of celery.  Genius.

    Parent

    I remember (none / 0) (#68)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 06:04:28 PM EST
    when 'The Simpsons' riffed on Schoolhouse Rock, Bart and Lisa we're watching cartoons and "How a Bill becomes a Law" came on.  Bart had no idea why they were talking about such stuff and Lisa explained that "It's just a cartoon that appeals to the 'Gen X' crowd" and Bart says rather nastily "We need another Vietnam to thin their ranks out a little!"  I just thought it was funny at the time, but I had no idea Shrub watched it and actually thought it was a sound policy prescription.

    Also of note, the Bill was a right winger, singing "And I'll crush all opposition to me, if they fight back, I'll say that he's gay!" referring to Sen. Kennedy at the time (this was in the 90's, long before his current diagnosis, and I was thrilled to see him cast the vote yesterday, I hope that he can pull through his current problems.)

    I loved those toons, of course I'm a Gen X'er, so I should I guess.  LOL

    Jackson

    Parent

    I wish all C-Span channels were free (4.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Josey on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:42:47 PM EST


    Odd to criticize this law in one thread (1.00 / 0) (#3)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:45:22 PM EST
    only minutes after one of its main authors had been lionized in another. From wiki:
    Kennedy was a leading member of the bipartisan team that wrote the controversial No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, which, according to both Kennedy and President Bush, was a compromise. He then worked to get it passed in a Republican controlled Congress, despite the opposition of members from both parties.


    Nobody's perfect. (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by TChris on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:29:42 PM EST
    Kennedy was also a key proponent of the federal sentencing guidelines, for honest but horribly misguided reasons.  But I have yet to find a politician who agrees with me on every issue, nor do I expect them to.

    Parent
    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:40:40 PM EST
    These two issues don't seem to be related. (1.00 / 0) (#48)
    by halstoon on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:52:49 PM EST
    Are you conflating the two links to simply highlight your point that civics should be a priority along with math?  

    I personally agree that when the bar is set high, students will work to clear it. I'm glad California is willing to push its kids to excel.

    Where I live, (none / 0) (#1)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:43:30 PM EST
    the problem is that the group of people assigned the task of creating an assessment device in history and government don't seem to be able to agree about what should be tested.  And as unfortunate as it is, in a climate where high stakes testing rules, what gets tested is what gets taught. However, I agree with you that an understanding of our government is essential for our students.

    I tend to agree (none / 0) (#11)
    by brodie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:07:23 PM EST
    that math/science usually get higher priority in this country, or at least math, than more important matters like our system of gubmt and US History.

    It seems to me that math/science involve a more specific set of skills or ability which only a slender minority of people will use to any great extent as they become adults.  And what they don't know in math can be easily done on electronic gadgets we carry around in our pockets.  Science, well that's mostly (from what I recall the way it was taught in school) a broad set of facts and data points which "facts" are constantly being updated and modified as the yrs go on.  

    All too easy to get very bored sitting back passively in a course which is so heavily fact-driven, the way it's taught traditionally.  All too easy in both these subjects to suffer from use it or lose it syndrome as we get older.

    Whereas learning our system of gov't/history involves no more than general ability, and are subject areas which, unlike math/science, we continue to use and draw upon as informed involved citizens regardless of our chosen profession or individual strengths and talents.

    I'd also like the schools to emphasize a curriculum dealing with critical thinking/media deconstruction.  Far more important that people learn how to think and reason, something which can last a lifetime and can be widely applied, than to teach them year after year subjects that involve facts too narrow in scope or with a limited shelf life.  

    It depends how you teach the subjects (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by dianem on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:15:51 PM EST
    Science is really more about critical thinking than facts. Nobody really needs to know how bees pollinates flowers, but it would benefit society greatly if students were taught about the scientific method and learned how to set up hypotheses and test them to determine whether or not something was true. School is about more than facts. How many of us really ever need to diagram a sentence in daily life? School is about teaching basic facts and then concepts that can be broadly applied.

    Parent
    I don't think I made myself clear (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by dianem on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:31:01 PM EST
    It does help to diagram a sentence. It's just that when adults write, they don't do it. They don't need to - they have made basic grammar so much a part of their nature. Well, many adults, anyway. Basic math is the same way. I can multiply 5 x 8 without even a second thought, but my 9 year old (very bright) nephew hasn't absorbed that to the point that he can do it automatically. Logic and algebra (and civics and geometry) should be the same - they should be taught at such an early age that they become  building blocks upon which other knowledge can be laid. Nobody should have to think about how much wood they can fit into a truck or how many tanks of water they need to water down a construction site. They should just know enough math to get a gut feeling. This would open up worlds to many people. We have very few engineers in the U.S. and a lot of lawyers (sorry, guys, but it's true). We need to reverse that. Lawyers have their place, but they don't build the technology that advances society. We need more hard science and math, and soon.

    Parent
    It does depend how a subject (none / 0) (#20)
    by brodie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:30:15 PM EST
    is taught, but it's been my experience that in, say, science, it was all top-down with the instructors lecturing and the students sitting passively in order to learn "facts".  With the exception of the occasional lab experiment, of course.  The scientific method is nice, and all the rest, and something of this rationale is used to justify heavy amts of math -- that in the process of learning all this, one instills critical thinking.

    I don't think it usually works out that way, however.  I'd just prefer we go directly to the matter of learning to think critically with courses set up -- preferably in the media criticism/discerning propaganda direction -- that would immediately address such matters, vital in a modern mass media world.

    Of course, all I'm asking for is at least one semester, for starters, mandatory, on the critical thinking class.

    Preferably two yrs in HS for US History and Gov't, 10th grade then for senior year.  

    No need, imo, for students to be required to learn so much math.  Certainly not algebra by the 9th grade.

    Parent

    Lifted from ParaPundit archives: (none / 0) (#23)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:56:09 PM EST
    This sort of sums up my take on No Child Left Behind--

    Teachers and schools ought to be measured on how well they do with the raw material they are given. Are the kids at an average of, say, 87 IQ? Then if the teachers manage to get the kids reading at the 9th grade level by the end of 12th grade the teachers ought to be given cash awards, medals, and congratulated by notable dignitaries. If the kids have an average IQ of 130 then the kids ought to be reading at 12th grade level by the end of 8th or 9th grade or else there is something wrong that needs fixing.

    The failure to consider differences in innate cognitive abilities means the whole NCLB debate is based on a massive lie. You won't see "IQ" or "intelligence" mentioned in the vast bulk of articles about failed schools and low student test scores. The elephant is in the room, it is in plain sight, and the vast bulk of our commentariat will not mention it. What passes for education policy debate in America is intellectually bankrupt. What would Orwell make of this?

    (except that the author's goal for kids with IQ's of 87 are somewhat inflated)

    That California requirement seems a bit odd (none / 0) (#27)
    by Pol C on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:10:49 PM EST
    I grew up in an affluent Michigan school district where just about everyone went on to a four-year college. Algebra (first-year) was for the accelerated-track eighth-graders. Isn't Algebra One generally considered a ninth-grade course?


    I had Algebra... (none / 0) (#38)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:58:28 PM EST
    ...in 7th grade.  You had to test into it though.

    Parent
    Yes, it is, (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:35:12 PM EST
    It was in my day. (none / 0) (#78)
    by Mshepnj on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 06:30:26 AM EST
    In the 1970s, advanced math students could test into Algebra I in 8th grade, but most took it Freshman year. Not anymore.

    My daughter started Algebra I last year in 7th grade and will continue it this year in 8th. This is standard now for most kids in New Jersey I think. But then, they also teach Physics in 9th or 10th grade now, whereas it was elective when I was in high school.

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:39:25 PM EST
    Sure, a basic understanding of science and math is useful,

    But as important as science and math may be

    Useful? May be?

    The more complex the world becomes the more important is for people to know enough science and math and logic to know when they are being lied to.

    And in my day Civics was a req, as was American History.. so I don't see anyone being left behind.

    I Get It Now (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:54:37 PM EST
    .... the more important is for people to know enough science and math and logic to know when they are being lied to.

    All along you have been testing us. GOP lies as a test of our ability to understand logic.

    Nice.

    Parent

    Not much connection with logic. (none / 0) (#67)
    by wurman on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:53:19 PM EST
    Science & math are not specifically related to the subject matter of formal logic.  The tools of philosophy are not often integrated with the study of other disciplines.

    Some of the sciences function on an almost illogical basis with data points somewhat intuitively "inferred," induced, & drawn out into hypothetical constructs that may or may not hold up to scrutiny.  Thus the endless arguments about evolution.  Quantam physics defies logic.  Most of the traditional maths are logical, in their own systematic way, but not because they use any of the features from formal logic.  And, again, some of the most advanced maths are counter-logical.

    And that really should be the point--none of the subject matters is actually designed to teach people the skills of reasoning.  You might do better teaching youngsters how to play poker, as a method of rational thought, than teach any of the academic disciplines.  Algebra . . . pffffft.

    Parent

    heh heh (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    If you don't have a basic understanding of math and science you will not know when someone, say ALgore, is fibbing to you.

    As for evolution and/or creationism, neither are science. Both depend on a leap of faith.

    And any "science" that doesn't hold up, is not "science."

    Parent

    To an extent (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:15:32 PM EST
    But when players say.... "3 to 1" they don't actually mean it will happen 1 time out of 4, but that in 10,000 or so chances.... Think of it as bell curve... The question is, where are you on the curve.

    Of more importance is how many times the other player has raised with nothing in that position...

    Parent

    Our Civics class in high school.... (none / 0) (#46)
    by ineedalife on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:41:12 PM EST
    was taught by the Track coach. Guess where his priorities were? But at least he could belch his way through the entire alphabet, which he demonstrated to us several times that semester. Oddly, he was genuinely hurt when test grades weren't up to par. He thought being best buds with the students helped the learning. Well, at least we could belch with the best of them.

    No Child Left Behind (none / 0) (#50)
    by JustJennifer on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:58:40 PM EST
    It's a complete failure IMO.  I have children at both ends of the educational system - one who will be a Jr next year and one going into 4th and one going into 1st.  The things I have seen with my oldest makes me want to pull my hair out - or if I had the option pull him out of school and teach him myself.  And I live in an excellent school district so I can't imagine what is going on elsewhere.

    I agree that standardized testing is important - growing up I also took the Iowa basic skills test.  But to tie government funding to test scores is not working, period.  I hope that NCLB will be abolished if Obama gets elected.   I know Clinton promised that she would end NCLB if she was elected.

    edgibacation, nix the algebra (none / 0) (#51)
    by wurman on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:10:26 PM EST
    Nice opening reading Saber-Tooth Curriculum (link):

    Algebra as useless time lost?  Look here (link):

    Algebra
    This is where it all goes wrong. Here's a quote from Roger Schank who looked into the dodgy history of why algebra became so embedded in curricula, "I'm a math major and a computer science professor, and algebra has never come up in my life, maybe it has in yours." I'd argue that little or nothing in algebra is useful for the vast majority of people in work. In fact it is so conceptually difficult and of such little practical use that most of us who master it forget it soon after we've passed the exam. When was the last time you used a simultaneous linear or quadratic equation?

    There is a formalized method for teaching rational thought processes, here (link):

    How, then, should students be taught to reason better? For a variety of reasons, no traditional university course is likely to do this job well enough, especially for students whose potential is not already quite well developed. There is a long history of claims that courses of instruction in particular subjects will enhance thinking skills. When I was at school, geometry was regarded as having that power. When my parents were at school, it was Latin! None of these claimants were supposed to do the job independently of any particular subject matter.

    Algebra does not teach youngsters to think.  Algebra teaches algebra.  It also doesn't teach people how to do higher maths.  In fact, it doesn't do much at all, unless you're an "Algebran."

    Actually, I do use (4.00 / 1) (#54)
    by eric on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:07:32 PM EST
    algebra sometimes.  Equations help me compare different figures with contingencies.  I use it to compare different scenarios with multiple variables.  Now, I am not using quadratic equations or anything, but if I want to settle a complex multiparty lawsuit with varying measures of damages and liability, it is useful.

    Parent
    It's my opinion that people are using skills (none / 0) (#64)
    by wurman on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:42:19 PM EST
    from other reasoning processes that are not actually "algebraic" or "latinate." They are functions that just happen to end up in the rules of algebra or the syntax of Latin , as they would also in formal logic, or Euclidian geometry, or business math--for that matter.

    As the authors of my 3rd reference, Teaching People to Think, would have it, there is not much evidence that any particular course of study generates the ability to reason on the part of any group of students.  Their specific course does do that, intentionally & measurably.

    My point is that algebra does not teach people to think.  They may learn to think elsewhere & bring that to algebra class.  One math prof, who comments in my 2nd reference, guesses that about 1 percent of algebra students benefit from the study of that subject matter.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#66)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:47:34 PM EST
    The most common refrain I can remember from my schoolboy days was "I hate story problems."  Doesn't everyone?  I bet George W. Bush hated him some story problems!

    But story problems, at least to my way of thinking, are what the whole thing is all about.  A story problem isn't an abstract formula, it's a real-world situation.  And you have to apply the principles you've learned to solving that real-world situation.  It's not the computation that's hard - you can get a calculator for that.  But figuring out how to solve the problem, devising the algorithm that gets you there, that's the skill you'll need later in life.

    Is there some style of education that results in kids not hating story problems?  Because story problems are the whole ballgame in my book.

    Parent

    I think Hope is closer to having (none / 0) (#77)
    by weltec2 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 04:16:21 AM EST
    the answer here when Hope answers, "I think you are so used to having this skill that you don't realise what it gives you...." Certainly it is not a question of learning specific problems, but algebra has provided an access to certain ways of dealing with problems that I probably would not have otherwise. Now whether or not I might have gained the same capacities in other ways... I have no way of knowing. I don't think anyone else does either.


    Parent
    I'd skip math as a separate subject myself (none / 0) (#52)
    by DandyTIger on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:35:01 PM EST
    OK, there's a controversial notion for you. Speaking as a mathematician and theoretical computer science person, I'd recommend teaching math topics and skills through other subjects. Mostly science and architecture and engineering oriented subjects (e.g., physics), but also through art and government and language and music courses. That way you cover just the things you need, and there's motivation for everything.

    Covering more practical materials like engineering or science (esp. physics) is more fun and motivates all the math you need (including algebra through classical mechanics for example).

    There's nothing more boring in the universe than arithmetic. And really math for it's own sake is really boring for most everyone except people that want to study math in college. But when you get to geometry and algebra, suddenly things get interesting. And I don't think a zillion years of arithmetic help you one lick for that, so start the fun stuff earlier anyway.

    Since we're also reminiscing, I had a really good public school education. I had all the usual math and science and government (fed and state) and art and music. I also had organic chemistry, two years of physics, game theory, logic, some bits of universal algebra, and some advanced calculus, and two years of computer science. And this was a public school in West Virginia in the early 70's.

    The past 40 years of criminal republicans (none / 0) (#71)
    by pluege on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:53:42 PM EST
    infesting the government with not even a wimper from joe schmo American is a massive condemnation of the American public school system punctuating that Americans have no idea what the Constitution says or means, what America was founded on, and what American ideals are.

    From Nixon, to Iran Contra and the hero worship of the criminal oliver north, to the unleashed authoritarians and borderline totalitarianism of the bush II regime, Americans have been silent as the rule of law is flouted and eviscerated. There is just far, far too much republican law breaking for Americans silence to be anything other than Americans not knowing what the law is or the Constitution says/means. And that widespread ignorance falls squarely on the public school system - a massive failure.

    Nice rant plague (none / 0) (#73)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 12:43:41 AM EST
    feel better now?

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#79)
    by Steve M on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 06:48:44 AM EST
    He has his outlet.  You seem to have yours as well.

    Parent
    O man TChris (none / 0) (#72)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:49:24 PM EST
    I have the honor of educating these kids, or their parents.

    What would you suggest?