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I Am A Centrist Because . . .

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Other Politics
Posted on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 07:59:03 PM EST
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What Obama Needs To Learn:

Politics is not a battle for the middle. It is a battle for defining the terms of the political debate. It is a battle to be able to say what is the middle.

Via Digby, according to the LATimes, I am Centrist because I support stem cell research, immigration, addressing global warming and nuclear nonproliferation. As Digby writes:

It's good for us when positions that have been considered left wing ideas are characterized as centrist. It signals that the public . . . have decided that on some issues, anyway, what was once considered left wing heresy is now mainstream.

That is called defining what the middle is. Obama and progressives need to keep pushing the middle in our direction. On Iraq, warrantless wiretapping and a whole range of issues. Obama still has not learned the lesson.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    I Am A Centrist Because . . . | 52 comments (52 topical)

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    I think that (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:12:44 PM EST
    changing what is seem as "mainstream"  is one very good definition of leadership.

    Is BTD running for something? (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by pie on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:15:13 PM EST
    :)

    Parent
    heh (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by andgarden on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:15:47 PM EST


    Parent
    Andgarden (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:58:14 PM EST
    you're on a roll tonight.

    Best definition of "leadership" I've ever seen.  Perfect.


    Parent

    Um, are you sure (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:58:43 PM EST
    you're only 23?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#35)
    by andgarden on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 10:33:31 PM EST
    Disclosure: I am not paying gyrfalcon to say any of this!

    Parent
    Do you deem Sen. Obama a leader on: (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:14:47 PM EST
    stem cell research, immigration, addressing global warming and nuclear nonproliferation
    ?

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:15:37 PM EST
    But he could be.

    Parent
    Not asking me (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:16:56 PM EST
    But my answer obviously is no. My assessment really has not changed of Obama since 2006. And what is frustrating is he has it at his fingertips. If he just had the political courage to do it.

    Parent
    Gee, didn't he promise (none / 0) (#45)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:32:23 AM EST
    us he had courage, then, take away his promise? I think he's proven where he is on the courage spectrum.

    Parent
    Don't hold your breath (none / 0) (#51)
    by denise on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 05:02:03 PM EST


    Parent
    We need to define what Progressive is (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by dianem on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:16:25 PM EST
    We've already give up "liberal" in order to avoid the stigma that the right placed on the term. Now we are losing the opportunity to define progressive in our search for the middle. There is nothing wrong with our ideals. We don't need to sell them as anything but what they are. The right has convince people that their views are "mainstream", but they aren't. The mainstream believes in the same things that we believe in - we aren't centrist - they're progressive. We just need to teach them what "Progressive" means.

    Progressive is Centrist (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:17:38 PM EST
    Forget the labels. The issues are what matter imo.

    Parent
    You're right. (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by pie on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:20:15 PM EST
    It's going to take some doing to get others to get there.

    Obama should listen before it's too late

    Parent

    this is obnoxious (none / 0) (#43)
    by ribbon on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 08:59:51 AM EST
    Centrist refers to positions on fiscal and monetary policy. If you are a centrist, then you  uphold the view that the government should calibrate its economic compass based on a balance between the values of individual vs. cummunal benefit.

    A centrist strives to internalize positive and negative externalitites where it is appropriate to do so. Just to use some silly examples: Publicly funded ice cream would be too communal and instead needs to be individualistic. On the other hand, publicly funded education (or better yet national defense), is appropriately communal.

    A good centrist by default strives to legislate  sustainable annual budgets and encourage long-term economic growth, yet can part from these positions transiently under special circumstance.

    Bastardarizing the word "centrist" aims to represent centrisism as an umbrella term that refers to  "anything not extreme left or extreme right" - which does absolutely nothing but dillute the core principles of centrisism.

    If you want to claim you're a "progressive" or "moderate" centrist, then that's fine - but you'd better recognize that you are making the claim that you accept and practice (i.e. vote for) candidates who support the fiscal and monetary components of centrism outlined above.

    Otherwise, well, you're a balled-faced poser, which is exactly what Obama is.

    Adding the cute adjectives "moderate" and "progressive" simply states your leanings on non-economic components of society (e.g., culture) issues like morality, ethics, law, science, etc. Arenas which are all frighteningly important, to be sure, but are secondary to what centrism refers to.

    Hence one can be a "progressive" conservative, or a "moderate" liberal.

    Saying Progressive is Centrist is like saying water is mountains.  Water can be used to describe the particulars of a mountain, but to say that one is the other is plainly obnoxious.

    Parent

    Says who? (none / 0) (#50)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:30:44 AM EST
    If it were all about fiscal and monetary policy we certainly wouldn't see the terms being utilized on issues like national security. Big Tent is right. Centrist IS what a leader defines it to be. It's how the GOP noved the Overton on issues like homeschooling from fringe to mainstream. We need to start thinking the same way.

    The biggest mistake the Democrats make is always playing defense and allowing the GOP to control the debate.

    Then again BTD, I have to wonder if the Democrats(and Obama) really are centrist on these issues or if it is all some political kabuki game. It isn't like I haven't been subjected to the say one thing do another philosophy for the last two years. We are still in Iraq(despite all the huffing and puffing). The telcomms still got immujnity(despite all the huffing and puffing). People are still ignoring subpeonas(despite all the sternly worded letters). Quite frankly, I don't have much faith left in either party.

    Parent

    If we are redefining the center, please don't (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Teresa on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:26:00 PM EST
    leave health care behind. My father died, pretty young, 21 years ago. We talked then about how 20 years from now, there will be a cure for cancer and everyone would have health care. We've made some progress on cancer, but none on health care for families like mine.

    It is shameful to me that our country still doesn't have health care for all. Maybe I will be like Michelle Obama, that is when I will really be proud of my country.

    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by andgarden on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:29:17 PM EST
    Maybe we're just too far to the center for BTD. :D

    Parent
    Not his issue. But, did you see this? (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:34:20 PM EST
    In Orlando, Angie Thillet, 38, who voted twice for Bush, is leaning toward Obama because he proposes to get the country close to universal health care.

    Excerpt from Sat. AP article on Obama and McCain trying to woo Latino voters.

    Parent

    Well, it's an anecdote (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by andgarden on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:39:54 PM EST
    but I would like to think that people who actually always cared about healthcare would never have voted for W. Substance free voting was the rule of the day. Hopefully, that will end. I think the financial downturn makes that more likely.

    Parent
    People who really care for health care would have (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by suzieg on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 08:52:51 AM EST
    never voted for Obama. That was my main reason for not voting for him. When he gave an interview with our local papers and I read that he would consider mandated health care for adults in his second term ONLY if it worked for kids - he lost me and I worked very hard to have him defeated.

    That a democratic candidate would not advocate for health care for adults after hearing the heartwrenching stories of people on the campaign trail, shows him to be a cold hearted person who would put his political ambitions ahead of the good of the people. He's shown me he's not a champion of the people and it absolutely brings me to fury when I hear him or his surrogates proclaim that he's for universal health care - he might be, but he won't enact it because he has no moral fortitude!

    Anyway, his advisor, John Kerry, told us that mandated/universal health care for adults will not be brought up as legislation therefore will be a no go. The issue is just too hot to handle which would take political courage which the dems have shown us unfortunately, over and over again that they are lacking.

    Parent

    Is there a requirement anecdotes (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:46:14 PM EST
    be labeled?

    Parent
    I thought you were asking my opinion (none / 0) (#24)
    by andgarden on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:54:38 PM EST
    on the quote. I gave it.

    Parent
    It's the new Center. (none / 0) (#26)
    by lilburro on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:04:15 PM EST


    Parent
    Sounds fine to me (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:31:31 PM EST
    I do not know enough about the issue on h0w to do it.

    Parent
    Neither do I, BTD (none / 0) (#28)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:53:44 PM EST
    but that's the discussion we ought to be having nationally.  We got close to it during the primaries with the contrast between Hillary's and Obama's plans.  At least the subject is edging onto the table, which is a long way away from where we were in 1992 when Hillary first tried.

    Teddy Kennedy's been trying to just get it on the table for what, 30 years or more?

    At least we're talking about it, and that's progress.  Won't happen in my lifetime, though, but maybe yours.  Thank God for Medicare.  Counting the months...

    Parent

    Me too, but I'm getting really worried! My husband (none / 0) (#44)
    by suzieg on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:00:24 AM EST
    who's on it was just told by his doctor that he is no longer treating medicare patients. Doctors are getting fewer and fewer who will accept people on medicare because of the continued cuts!
    I've got 37 months to go and hopefully it will still exist or should say that doctors will still participate.....

    Parent
    The issues that most of us care about are now (5.00 / 6) (#22)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:50:17 PM EST
    very much mainstream and using the current terminology "the center." I am completely baffled why  Obama and the New Democratic Party chose to rehabilitate the Republican Party at a time when it and conservatism has proven to be such a failure. Obama adopting Republican talking points on numerous issues and moving their agenda forward through votes like FISA is the main reason I am reluctant to vote for Obama. A win for Obama when campaigning to the right gives him a right of center mandate and solidifies  the CW that this strategy is the only winning strategy.

    The opportunity to claim a center that is enthusiastic about our issues will be lost along with our 4th Amendment rights.

    MO (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:56:08 PM EST
    You should be a high-paid columnist for one of the major papers instead of whatever it is you do for a living.

    This is the best, most succinct analysis I've seen of precisely what's going on right now.

    "I am completely baffled why  Obama and the New Democratic Party chose to rehabilitate the Republican Party at a time when it and conservatism has proven to be such a failure."

    "Rehabilitate the Republican Party" is exactly right.

    Thank you.

    Parent

    Simple answers to simple questions (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by lambertstrether on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 06:00:38 AM EST
    MO writes:

    I am completely baffled why  Obama and the New Democratic Party chose to rehabilitate the Republican Party at a time when it and conservatism has proven to be such a failure.

    Like Willie Sutton said: "Because that's where the money is."

    Conservatism was not a failure for Conservatives, especially in the Village political class. Most of them got well-paying, permanent jobs on wingnut welfare. The Obama "Movement" will simply end up replicating this model.

    The Village is a sack of pus waiting to burst....

    Parent

    the mainstream of millionaire pundits (none / 0) (#34)
    by MarkL on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 10:07:59 PM EST
    has different values.

    Parent
    He started (none / 0) (#52)
    by denise on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 05:06:40 PM EST
    mapping out his strategy as soon as he got to the Senate - or before - and doesn't seem to have noticed that the public mood has changed in the past couple of years.

    Parent
    It seems to me (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by lilburro on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:57:15 PM EST
    that Obama thinks that defining the center is enticing by message, then showing the new voters as if they represented a definable consensus.  Obama has selected a few issues to push on young evangelicals, for instance, constructing a poorly defined social gospel outlook.  It is the type of thing McCain I'm sure will do to encourage Democrats and independents to latch onto his campaign - the environment, stem cell research, immigration.  A semi-adequate outlook.

    On a few issues Obama and McCain are willing to blur partisan boundaries to pander for votes.  They are both basically doing the same thing.

    I think there must be someone in his camp who enjoys defying ideology and pushing against partisan Dems.  Someone who enjoys innocently pandering on faith, someone who enjoys keeping Donnie McClurkin on the team.  

    I dunno.  Nothing seems accidental anymore.  I think Obama wants to drive out the vote, but there may not be a mandate once it comes.  What do the progressives and the young evangelists have in common in terms of political goals?  And on what will progressives be willing to cede ground?

    And it's unfortunate that the political Dems in Washington take caving as their credo, and will probably do little to help Obama create a policy oriented mandate.  

    I think that is correct. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:09:36 PM EST
    Every so often, when my son is discouraged, I remind him of the progress in mainstream attitudes since '65 (when we by-passed that bridge in Alabama on our way to SC to live).  From separate fountains,  restrooms, and schools and NO restaurants or movies to a town where the races mix so thoroughly that the kids come in all shades of brown, white, and black--we've come a long way, baby.  Those people who said, 'I'll never....' have swallowed their bile and eaten their words.

    No longer am I alone as I discuss stem-cell research, gay marriage, our new Mexican neighbors, global warming, health care for all, rights of the disabled, and the wrongs of the fighting in Iraq.  I was a bleeding-heart liberal.  Now I am mainstream--me, the kook, the leftie, the nut.

    Yes, Obama is heading in the wrong direction.  He's the one in the time warp, not me.  Presidential candidates may hold us up for awhile, but they are beating a dead horse if they think yesterday's arguments can hold off the future.  
    We changed Jim Crow, my friends, and, yes, we can! change still more things.  Our candidate is holding the road map upside down, but we know the way.  Too bad he isn't leading--but if he'll just stay out of the way, we will get there, with or without him.  

    Well said (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 10:00:52 PM EST
    but he's holding us back is the problem, dammit.

    Parent
    You know what real happiness is? (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Grace on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:37:15 AM EST
    It's when the can of "SqueezeCheese" runs out at the same time you run out of Triskets.  That's total bliss.  I guess it would be the Centrist position to take on SqueezeCheese and Triskets.  

    The other positions would be:  SqueezeCheese runs out before Trisket box is empty

    OR

    Tristket box is empty but you still have more SqueezeCheese.  

    The last two positions are not good ones to be in.  One would have to be left and the other one would have to be right.  The centrist position would be to have the SqueezeCheese and the Triskets run out at exactly the same time.  

    I'm not FOR Triskets OR SqueezeCheese.  I just like to have them together.  

    I think I'm a centrist.  :)

    Okay. (none / 0) (#2)
    by pie on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:14:24 PM EST
    We are all centrists!

    I agree that using language can be fun (Conjunction Junction, etc.) for some issues, but Iraq remains problematic.

    I read the article. (none / 0) (#10)
    by pie on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:18:45 PM EST
    It'a not one I would want publicized if I were Obama.

    Its the antidote to yesterday's (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:20:06 PM EST
    article by AP reporter and Obama campaign plane passenger Sidotti.

    Parent
    And the winner is... (none / 0) (#13)
    by pie on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:21:14 PM EST
    ?

    Parent
    Not sure why (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:26:48 PM EST
    But in any event, I am not Obama.

    Parent
    Obama supporters (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by pie on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:52:20 PM EST
    keep insisting he's different, and he wouldn't be the same kind of president.  I'd love to believe that, but his rhetoric isn't convincing.

    Not at all.

    Stand for something, or stand for nothing.

    Parent

    Not sure why? (none / 0) (#20)
    by pie on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:41:19 PM EST
    When both are essentially saying the same thing?

    Parent
    Yup.... (none / 0) (#38)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 03:45:33 AM EST
    something in the water in DC?

    so Clinton as a centrist left leaning (none / 0) (#39)
    by kimsaw on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 05:37:03 AM EST
    was unacceptable to the lefty, Huffo, KO's crowd. Clinton was the last standing candidate that upheld the Democrat brand and was tossed out for the undefined post-partisan guy who is now right of center helping to rehabilitate the Republican brand.

    Is post-partisan a centrist position or a capitulating one? Categorically we have the extreme right and left, the centrist right and left, is there just a right and left anymore? If progressive is now the centrist brand or vice a versa why did the Party throw out the progressive in favor of the digressive?

    The question for me is not I'm a centrist because ,but I'm an independent because. Principles within the parties are sold out for the win at all cost mentality and in the end you don't achieve change but maintain the status quo. Core values within parties fade with the campaign yet we are a nation split down the middle ideologically. Policies position is essential to the integrity of the candidates. At this point neither candidate can claim a mandate on policy. In the end this is a game of who can bait and switch best in order to amass the 51% needed. How progressive is that?

    Shoving the Overton Window left (none / 0) (#40)
    by lambertstrether on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 05:57:10 AM EST
    That's our job or, rather, our task.

    It's not our job to serve as unpaid adjuncts to the campaigns. They have staffers for that. IMNSHO.

    For Overton Window, see here and WikiPedia.

    Wrong. (none / 0) (#46)
    by halstoon on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:56:41 AM EST
    Barack believes what he believes, as he has now said many times, but which you consistently ignore. He happens to be more to the right on things like the death penalty, abortion, and faith than you like. That doesn't make him a center-seeking fraud.

    If he starts out one way to (none / 0) (#47)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:07:42 AM EST
    win a primary, switches positions to win during the ge, totally swings right from his left-leaning positions, he is being disingeuous in his stances on issues. For anyone who believes he will suddenly win the election and "fix" what he's broken such as his "words" and actions on FISA, should re-evaluate him. Nothing wrong, imo, of hoping for the best, but leading up to 1/09, we are entitled to see his best. I, for one, have not seen it.

    Parent
    Other than FISA, what can you cite that he (none / 0) (#54)
    by halstoon on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 06:26:09 PM EST
    specifically switched on? A lot of what people think is political positioning is really just Barack saying the same things Barack has always said. What's different is A) what the media chooses to cover, and B) how they choose to present it.

    Obama also made it clear that while he did not like the FISA bill, he felt that with the impending expiration of the previous program this compromise was better than having no surveillance at all. That may not be popular, but at least he owned it.

    Parent

    how much do politicians influence people? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:38:16 AM EST
    I'm not gonna say because I don't know about other people, but I've completely deluded myelf int thinking that my value judgments on the leftistness or rightistness, or the rightness and wrongness of a policy is a function if my values (given to me by my parents and other mentors in life), what I believe I know about the issue, my study.  

    With maybe very few exception (wes Clark, for example), a politician as never been able to determine for me at least what is or is not the center.  Certainly republican media machine never got me to even consider that torture was a centrist policy.

    I don't know how to make sense of this but I don't know how comfortable I am believing that I am, or people like me, are fundamentally different than another group of people who are more susceptible to believing certain policies are out of the mainstream based on how a politician embraces those policies.

    I see nothing particularly (none / 0) (#49)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:11:57 AM EST
    wrong about being a centrist, however, winning over people because you spout your beliefs one way, and then completely ignore what you've said and flip on it with the only explanation being that you haven't changed your policy, then I believe you have lied in the first place to get to the second. I don't like liars. At least if your position changes, which is fine, give me the plausible explanation as to why.

    It also (none / 0) (#53)
    by denise on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 05:11:34 PM EST
    depends on what you mean by centrist - the whole point of this thread.

    Parent
    I Am A Centrist Because . . . | 52 comments (52 topical)

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