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Why Should The Iraqi Gov't Need Leverage To Have US Troops Leave?

This is truly an amazing statement from the Bush Administration:

"We don't think that talking about specific negotiating tactics or your negotiating position in the press is the best way to negotiate a deal," [White House Press Secretary Dana] Perino said after Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was quoted in a magazine article supporting the 16-month troop withdrawal timeline proposed by Obama, the Democratic presidential candidate. "However, we understand that they're a sovereign country and they'll be able to do that," Perino said. "We're just not going to do it on our end."

(Emphasis supplied.) If you understand Iraq is a sovereign country, then you should understand that they should not have to have leverage at all in telling the United States to leave. The United States has no right to have troops in Iraq. Indeed, the ostensible purpose of the troop presence in Iraq is to assist the Iraqi government. Suppose the US, in good faith, disagrees with the Iraqi government's assessment of the situation. So what? If they ask you to leave, then you leave.

But of course the most amazing part of this is that the American People as well as the Iraqi government wants the United States to leave Iraq, but for the Bush Administration and John McCain, it does not matter what the people want.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    If They Ask You To Leave, (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:12:25 AM EST
    you leave.

    I do not question the legitimacy of that statement. I do question if any U.S. president would actually do that if he deemed it not to be in the national interests of the U.S.

    The national interests of the U.S. could be defined as insuring the "oil contracts" remain  in the hands of U.S. companies or to prevent Iraq from becoming the puppet of Iran rather than the U.S.

    While Obama has "committed" to withdrawing combat troops, he has not "committed" to removing all U.S. troops from Iraqi soil. In fact, his position has always been that he would maintain as unspecified number of troops in Iraq for the foreseeable future.  

    Agreed. (none / 0) (#119)
    by Paprika on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:50:36 AM EST
    This is also why the U.S. is not going to be replaced by a U.N. peacekeeping mission made up of countries from the region, which in my opinion is the best alternative if there must be a foreign presence in Iraq to ensure it doesn't denigrate into civil war.

    Parent
    The press is partly to blame for this nonsense. (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:16:08 AM EST
    They still refer to what we are doing in Iraq as "fighting a war." The war is long over, and we won it when Saddam Hussein was toppled. What our military is currently doing in Iraq is occupying it.

    true (none / 0) (#133)
    by ribbon on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:00:30 AM EST
    and providing the stability the political and economic processes that drive Iraq's growth and prosperity - which seems to be working!

    There's a point at which we will no lnger be needed there, perhaps Maliki thinks that that time is now.

    At any rate, if things in IRaq continue on their present course, that time would be soon anyways.

    Parent

    Never comment in my threads. All your comments will be deleted.

    Parent
    I have a feeling.... (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:25:13 AM EST
    we will see just how sovereign Iraq is in the coming months.

    I'm wagering not very sovereign at all.

    it will be as soverign (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:53:40 AM EST
    as we say it is.


    Parent
    That'll PO the Muslim nations. (none / 0) (#118)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:49:54 AM EST
    One of the pressing reasons to resolve the Iraq situation is because as long as we act like conquerors and occupiers, the more we PO Muslim nations.  If any candidate wants to prove their foreign policy credentials to me, they can at least acknowledge that much.

    Parent
    I think we are to late.... (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:01:14 AM EST
    to many brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, and in-laws of dead Iraqis to ever be thought as anything else but occupiers and conquerers.

    Parent
    What I don't get (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by rottenart on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:22:36 AM EST
    is why no one wants to talk about WHY we have engendered so much animosity from this part of the world. WE have our noses in where they don't belong and have had for a looong time.

    I think Obama gets it, even if he's been woefully loathe to discuss it (which I can also understand, given his position) and I see his policy pronouncements supporting a goal of reducing American presence in the broader Middle East. This is the crux of the problem: we have pissed them off because we have never once BUTTED OUT OF THEIR AFFAIRS.

    This problem far predates the Iraq War, Bush, or even Carter. We have been stirring the pot since the end of WWII and it's time for it to stop.

    It doesn't necessarily follow that we have to become strict isolationists either. This is where I'd segue into a rant about clean energy if I thought it was the place for it. I think you guys understand where I mean to go with all this.

    Parent

    Permanent Bases (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:25:27 AM EST
    We're in Iraq only as long as they allow us to be. Bush has never paid any attention to international law, so why would anyone expect him to start now?

    We've been looking for a major military base in the region since we were asked to leave Saudi Arabia. I'm sure this administration had this in their plans from the start. They don't want to walk away from the billions of dollars spent on mega bases we've built around the country.

    You'd think..... (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:40:11 AM EST
    Kuwait and Qutar would be enough.

    How many bases do ya need on other people's soil?

    Parent

    To protect our foreign oil supply? (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Grace on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:44:52 AM EST
    We need permanent bases.  Lots of them, I guess.  

    Parent
    In Venezuela! (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:38:15 AM EST
    Contrary to popular misinformation, we don't get most of our oil from the Mid East.  It makes sense actually - why import oil ll the way from Africa when you can get it from South America?

    Parent
    Don't give the nutballs in DC any (none / 0) (#190)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:58:38 AM EST
    ideas. It isn't like they haven't cherrypicked info before to start a bogus war and the dittoheads in Congress haven't picked up their pom poms to cheer em' on.

    Parent
    To be fair... (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by sj on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:59:31 AM EST
    "Bush has never paid any attention to international law"

    ... he's never paid any attention to domestic law either.

    Parent

    Bush does not pay attention. (none / 0) (#153)
    by Blowback on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:13:26 AM EST
    Bush has an attention span so short, he can never pay attention to anything. He lets Cheney tell him what's happened.

    Parent
    "Protect Our Interests" (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Truth Sayer on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:19:37 AM EST
    That is what Obama said in his op-ed. Of course we are going to want some kind of presence in Iraq. And so far if you have not noticed Maliki has not said any different.

    There are a lot of back stories here that Big Tent is not considering. This is not just about what Maliki said in an article and what the WH said today.

    For instance Iraq still does not have an effective and fair working political structure, but it is developing. There is no oil sharing deal among the Iraqi factions. The Kurds in the north want separate assurances on other matters. There still is a big divide between Sunni and Shiia. etc etc.

    So just because the Shiia dominated government wants us to leave so they can ride roughshod over the minorities we should do that? I don't think so because to allow that would not be leaving behind a fair situation.

    It's complicated and even Obama, naturally, does not mention these things at the present but you can be sure that he is being briefed on them and is holding them back until elected at which time he will announce that conditions on the ground just do not facilitate our leaving in 'exactly' 16 months.

    There are many layers to this onion and the question Big Tent poses based on a couple of articles is far from the complete story at work here and is has no basis for a complete and comprehensive discussion of us leaving.

    At present we are trying to cut our own deal before the UN mandate which governs our presence there expires. And if a deal is not cut then the UN may very well extend that mandate and Iraq would not have much say in it if they haven't held up their end as with the oil revenue sharing, etc.

    Beyond that we have two other factors. One there is still al queda in Iraq and we have a right to go after them even though they are there because of us they will not leave when we leave and it is our duty to get to them before they get to us or others somewhere in some way. The other thing is that the Shiia owe us. Maliki would not even be talking from his position if we had not freed Iraq from Saddam. Not to say I agree with our attacking Iraq but once a ship has said there are new dynamics formed and that is what we have now. That new dynamic is to make sure Iraq is a fair and democratic country that will not fall into the pattern that it has over the history of that region.

    And I have only touched on some of the complexities. So this is not as simple as Big Tent and some of the other bloggers try to make it. The argument for when and how to get out of Iraq simply cannot be put forth in a few blog posts that are based on second, and third, and fourth hand information.

    Parent

    This is what makes your position untenable (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:24:03 AM EST
    You write:

    For instance Iraq still does not have an effective and fair working political structure, but it is developing. There is no oil sharing deal among the Iraqi factions. The Kurds in the north want separate assurances on other matters. There still is a big divide between Sunni and Shiia. etc etc.

    So just because the Shiia dominated government wants us to leave so they can ride roughshod over the minorities we should do that? I don't think so because to allow that would not be leaving behind a fair situation.

    You know what that means of course. We NEVER leave. IF that is your position, say it clearly.

    Parent

    No it does not mean (1.00 / 0) (#99)
    by Truth Sayer on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:40:48 AM EST
    we never leave. And I didn't suggest that nor would agree with it. Things take time to develop and it is the Iraqis themselves who have been dragging their feet politically, not us. Their total sovereignty is in their own hands not ours or the UN's.

    Yours is the untenable position of saying NEVER. You have no basis to say that as fact. Sure we could have military presence in Iraq for a long time with their permission. So could other countries as is done all over the world. But that is not what you are suggesting.

    You can try to pick apart what I wrote but it will do no good. What I wrote are facts that are well known and as I said a few blogs posts are not going to come to any conclusion here on the bigger picture.

    Not to say that it should not be discussed piece by piece on blogs, it should be. But as stated their are many pieces to be discussed and it is a complex situation.

    And again, even Obama knows that but is not acknowledging it as he likes to keep his message overly simple as if all people are dumb. McCain is being more upfront about Iraq than Obama is.

    Parent

    So How Many (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:47:37 AM EST
    Things take time to develop
    more Friedman units are you asking for?

    World War II didn't last this long.  Go hawk your occupation where people believe the nonsense you're spouting.

    Parent

    What? (none / 0) (#129)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:58:25 AM EST
    So you say it is up to the Iraqis, therefore we should stay? Sheesh.

    You say the Iraqis have not done it and it is their fault so therefore we should stay? Sheesh.

    But this is the part I love "You can try to pick apart what I wrote but it will do no good. What I wrote are facts that are well known. . . "

    What did you write that is a "well known fact?"

    You write your opinions mostly and opinions that are contradicted by your own statements.

    Your comment was ridiculously easy to take apart.

    N


    Parent

    You previously addressed (none / 0) (#183)
    by Truth Sayer on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:43:39 AM EST
    only one thing I said and injected your own opinion that we would NEVER leave. From an occupation standpoint I disagreed with that.

    As far as what you said in the post I'm responding to BTD I have seen you play this game with others - twisting words around, saying something was said that wasn't said, saying facts are not facts, etc. No thanks I won't participate in that silliness. If you want to discuss the substance of what I originally wrote then I would be happy to do that but this gotcha game you sometimes play with people I don't have time for.

    I'll stand by what I wrote with great confidence and am glad to discuss it. Have a great day, and I mean that.

    Parent

    Look (none / 0) (#188)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:56:37 AM EST
    I quoted you back to yourself.

    Id o not appreciate your accusations against me and indeed I am now suspending you from my threads for the day.

    Come back tomorrow to my threads if you like. Or not.

    These personal attacks stop NOW. Do you understand? No more. do it again and the suspension from MY THREADS will become permanent.

    Do NOT reply to this comment and do NOt comment ANY MORE in my threads TODAY.

    Parent

    I guess when you are (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:05:35 AM EST
    getting stuff from right and left it means you are in the right place.


    Parent
    Martin McGuinness (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by kredwyn on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:34:04 AM EST
    went to Iraq a week or so ago in order to talk with various folks from Sunni and Shiaa groups about trying to reconcile the two sides and shrink that divide.

    Parent
    Oil as national security (none / 0) (#192)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:59:58 AM EST
    Bush and co sure succeeded in defining oil and energy as the national security issue of our time.  

    You sound as if you are blaming the Iraqis for the absence of oil sharing agreements.  The oil sharing is NOT just an Iraqi issue.  OPEC is involved and so are many countries (especially the US) grabbing for a piece of that pie.   Agreement needs to be made not just over how the revenue will be split between factions but as to how much independence and control over their own assets they are going to give away.

    Parent

    the largest embassy in the world in (none / 0) (#134)
    by thereyougo on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:00:43 AM EST
    Baghdad was or is in the finishing stages. A micro city to house 7,000.  That does not appear to me that the US is leaving ANYTIME SOON -- even 16 months. As John McCain said we'll need to be there for 100 years, and he wasn't kidding.

    I wish Obama would cut the military budget and fix the crumbling infrastructure that was revealed by the Katrina hurricane.I don't believe he would, just because he has no military experience and would appear weak if he did.

    The US created the quagmire and its the responsible thing to see it through. I want out of Iraq as much as the rest because the debt is sinking the nation, but the catch 22 is that the US created the mess, and an outside presence is necessary,ideally someone OTHER THAN the US, mostly because of the perpetual secterian strife that feeds itself from US presence.

    Parent

    Bingo (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:52:19 AM EST
    In total agreement about staying to control the region and the OIL and that al-Maliki is doing what all pols do prior to an upcoming election.

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:06:12 AM EST
    This is a political gaffe but legally, probably a correct statement.  Even if the official Iraqi position (which is not, btw, determined by what the Prime Minister says in an interview) is that US forces need to leave with all deliberate speed, the UN mandate expires in December and there still probably has to be some sort of Status of Forces Agreement negotiated to define our role during the interim period.

    It really chafes me, by the way, that the UN mandate is scheduled to expire in an election year.  I'd be very interested to know the process by which the Security Council decided on that particular timing.

    Regardless, this presents a productive political opportunity for Obama, if he wants to take it.

    I do not understand your legal analysis (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:12:19 AM EST
    IF the UN mandate expires in December, by what legal right can the United States insist on staying beyond that point?

    Parent
    when did our government (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:36:29 AM EST
    start caring about "legalities"?

    Parent
    Pursuant to (none / 0) (#187)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:55:15 AM EST
    the Status of Forces Agreement that is currently being negotiated between the US and the Iraqi government.

    In 2007, when Maliki requested one final renewal of the UN mandate until the end of 2008, he said that he expected it to be replaced by a new agreement directly negotiated between Iraq and the US.  That process is currently underway.

    Iraq would, in theory, have a "nuclear option" of sorts if they wanted to simply tell us "look, no deal, get your troops out immediately."  I don't think this is a realistic possibility.

    Parent

    "currently being negotiated" (none / 0) (#197)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:10:16 AM EST
    And if no deal is made, then what?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#200)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:19:15 AM EST
    If there's no deal at all, that's kind of equivalent to the nuclear option, I guess.  We wouldn't have authorization to be there any more.  Maliki could still ask the Security Council for an additional extension of the mandate, I assume, even though he said he wouldn't.

    In the big picture, my point is that the US does, in fact, have things that Iraq wants.  Even if Maliki thinks Iraq is ready to take over security operations, our troops are still providing an important additional measure of security; a negotiated withdrawal could, for example, allow Maliki to ask that troops remain for a few extra months in the areas where they're needed most.  Also, I assume Iraq hopes to receive some measure of foreign aid and additional assistance from the US towards rebuilding its economy and infrastructure; they're unlikely to get anything, though, if they deploy the nuclear option and force us to engage in a chaotic withdrawal.

    So it's in everyone's interests, I think, for a negotiated agreement to happen, and that's why leverage matters.  It won't just be the Iraqis dictating terms to us.  As a matter of domestic politics, though, I agree with your point in this post and I always have.  It ought to be easy for Obama to say "if the Iraqis want us to leave, of course we're going to leave - what's with this notion that they need to have leverage first?"  But Obama doesn't invite you on his conference calls the way that other campaign did.

    Parent

    After January Bush and friends (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:35:43 AM EST
    don't get to say much more that matters.  I can't see how McCain has a chance of winning this election either with so many Americans wanting OUT OF IRAQ and now Iraq wants us out too.  It's win/win

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:54:37 AM EST
    McCain still out polls Obama on the Iraq issue. Figure that one out?

    Parent
    I think we are going to have to wait for (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:03:17 AM EST
    some recent polls to get to the current meat of what the people think about this now.  This issue is in play and when it comes to wars the most decisive leader gets the war points.  Obama is acting rather decisively right now and telling a bunch of whiners nonverbally to stuff it :)  It's a show of strength under pressure.

    Parent
    Obama is out playing McCain (none / 0) (#157)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:18:36 AM EST
    and maliki is happily helping him do it.

    good for Obama I suppose. I suppose even the puppets have tired fo the GOP.

    Parent

    thats an interesting point (none / 0) (#158)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:22:16 AM EST
    I wonder if we will not see more pointed questions directed toward Obama.  it has already started.  the press doesnt like being revealed as blatantly biased.
    and they have been. they are becoming a punchline.
    they dont like that.

    Parent
    Rasmussen (none / 0) (#168)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:28:13 AM EST
    yesterday had McCain beating Obama on this issue. I think that Obama is going to have a hard time with this issue due to cultural issues more than any particular policy statement.

    Parent
    Current as in the public being allowed to (none / 0) (#214)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:35:59 PM EST
    digest Obama's new involvement with Iraqi leaders in talking withdrawal.

    Parent
    an easy one (none / 0) (#94)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:37:34 AM EST
    he has a chance because of the alternative.


    Parent
    Obama giving presser in Jordan now (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:39:33 AM EST
    He reaffirms his commitment to withdraw from Iraq.

    Thank you (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:44:53 AM EST
    I hate watching the news right now.....bleh!  It just gets worse for McCain though.  I'm so happy that Obama is doing this.

    Parent
    Very valid points, creeper, but (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:57:59 AM EST
    please leave out the "f" word, along with the "s" word, and any others which your favorite aunt who'd be offended by coarse language would frown at you over.

    It's not that we are incapable of swearing like the proverbial sailor or cussing like a mule-skinner, but rather that there are filters in the software that many law firms and companies use, where a lot of professionals who read this site work.  When one of those coarse words goes through the filter, it doesn't - it gets caught and then the site gets blocked because the stupid filters think the coarse word means the site is pron, and pron is bad to have in the workplace (thus, the acronym NSFW).  And when the site gets blocked, Jeralyn has to spend entirely too much time pleading on the telephone with some sysop to get the ban lifted.

    Try using the asterisk, as in "Republicans have totally, and quite deliberately, f*cked up [insert name of anything they touched] and, as a result, we'll have to be cleaning up their sh*t for decades to come."

    We all know what you, and I in the example, mean.

    Thanks For the Reminder, scribe. (none / 0) (#173)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:35:27 AM EST
    That's not a word I commonly use, as you can see from my comments.  It's a mark of my frustration with people who think we can stabilize the Middle East that I used it to begin with.  BTW, I AM the grandmother.

    Oh, and to Truth Sayer...thanks for the one rating.  I wear your disapproval proudly.

    Parent

    There is also the problem of Turkey (3.00 / 1) (#69)
    by laurie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:22:59 AM EST
    hoping for the PK excuse to invade Kurdistan and its oil fields.

    Duet for Dog Whistles (none / 0) (#100)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:41:32 AM EST
    In his NYTimes Op-Ed, Obama specified troops staying in Iraq until "al Qaeda in Mesopotamia" was vanquished. That would include Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and the province in Iran bordering Iraq.

    Meanwhile, in the "gaffe" of the week -- that's not a gaffe, IMO -- McCain appeared on mornint TV to discuss troops staying in Iraq to secure the "Iraq-Pakistan border." Of course there's no such border, however Iraq's shared borders are as per Obama's Mesopotamia qualfier, above.

    I take both approaches as pistol-winks towards Israel and towards (NATO member) Turkey.

    For a day, at least, the images of the two presidential candidates offered a sharp contrast. In an interview on "Good Morning America" on ABC, Mr. McCain talked about securing the "Iraq-Pakistan border," a momentary misstatement of geography. (American forces are pursuing terrorists along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border; Iraq does not border Pakistan.) His aides staged an event where he was seen riding in a golf cart in Maine with the first President George Bush, while Mr. Obama flew over Iraq in a helicopter with Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top American military commander. (For Obama, A First Step is not a Misstep, By Richard A. Oppel Jr. And Jeff Zeleny, NYTimes, July 22, 2008)


    Parent
    a lot of competetion for the gaffe of the week (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:44:59 AM EST
    The outdoor speech at the Victory Column could draw thousands of people, similar to the size of Obama events in the United States.

    "It is not going to be a political speech," said a senior foreign policy adviser, who spoke to reporters on background. "When the president of the United States goes and gives a speech, it is not a political speech or a political rally.

    "But he is not president of the United States," a reporter reminded the adviser.

    Parent

    He does seem to have a problem ... (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:48:24 AM EST
    remembering that.

    Parent
    we will just have to keep (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:51:59 AM EST
    reminding  him.

    Parent
    There is too a border (none / 0) (#196)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:08:17 AM EST
    stop picking on McCain.  Even MY is capable of showing the Iraq/Pakistan border (it's that very thin green line.  :)

    At least the Iraq/Pakistan area is smaller than the whole of Mesopotamia.  All of mesopotamia?  sigh.

    Parent

    Naw, Turkey (none / 0) (#127)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:55:18 AM EST
    just wants to wipe out the PK completely.  They'd probably make a play for the oil fields if the Iraq disintegrated, but I doubt they'd do it before then.

    Parent
    The military (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:14:27 AM EST
    commanders were going to the press yesterday and undercutting Obama.

    A blatantly unlawful act by them (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:32:29 AM EST
    They better stop it or find themselves in serious trouble.

    Parent
    Are you serious BTD? (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by weltec2 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:48:47 AM EST
    From whom are they going to be in trouble? Have you seen any spine anywhere that would give you such an impression?

    Parent
    I am perfectly serious (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:58:39 AM EST
    Watch.

    Parent
    Unlawful? (1.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Truth Sayer on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:28:07 AM EST
    Not even.

    Why unlawful? They have as much of a right to weigh in with their opinions as Obama has to weigh in with his. It is they who must, and have, addressed the public as to the military situation in Iraq. On TV shows like MTP. In public testimony. Via MSM interviews. What you are saying is silly and I can't quite imagine why you would say what you are - other than for effect.

    Unlawful! Not even.

    Parent

    It is unlawful (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by eric on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:42:00 AM EST
    read:

    LINK


    A member on AD shall not:

    (1) Use his or her official authority or influence for interfering with an election; affecting the course or outcome of an election; soliciting votes for a particular candidate or issue; or requiring or soliciting political contributions from others.

    (2) Be a candidate for, or hold, civil office except as authorized in subsections D.2. and D.3., below.

    (3) Participate in partisan political management, campaigns, or conventions.

    (4) Make campaign contributions to another r of the Armed Forces or an employee of the Federal Government.

    I am pretty sure there is a federal law, as well.

    BTW, did you really not know about the prohibition against military involvement in politics, or were you just being willfully obtuse?  It is one of the fundamental tenets of our republic...


    Parent

    Do you have actual quotes (1.00 / 0) (#123)
    by Truth Sayer on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:53:15 AM EST
    of what was said in a political manner by the mentioned military personal?

    what you posted are known facts. The question is what what was actually said and whether what was said falls under the purvue of the DoD regulation? I doubt that is does because if military is commenting on their operations then they are well within their bounds.

    To comment on operations is not influencing an election. Let's be real here.

    Parent

    this is not snark, but do you expect better from (none / 0) (#146)
    by thereyougo on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:09:45 AM EST
    this administration since IT has broken international law, lied to his own country to go to war? The crumbling for the rule of law starts at the top.

    I don't expect the military or anyone from this bunch to follow the rule of law, as they feel entitled by something to make up their own or ignore it. Take your pick.

    Parent

    Ohmigod. (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:46:47 AM EST
    First: The military answers to the civilian leadership elected by the people of the US, so the military is supposed to have opinions on matters military, (ie: how wars are going, recruiting, weapons systems, etc) when asked.  But NOT on politics. EVER. This is not a bananna republic, it is a democracy.

    Second: Despite what the Bush Admin would have average Americans believe, military commanders do not make national policy. Look for military pushback when the GOP tries to leaver them holding the bag for Bush's ME mistakes.

    Parent

    Actually it is unlawful or at least against regs (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by misspeach2008 on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:47:38 AM EST
    I'm a "civilian" in both senses - not a military officer or a lawyer, but I have worked with and for the military before. From the DoD Regulations:

    1. General

        a. A member on AD may:

            (1) Register, vote, and express his or her personal opinion on political candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces.

            (2) Make monetary contributions to a political organization-

            (3) Attend partisan and nonpartisan political meetings or rallies as a spectator when not in uniform.

        b. A member on AD shall not:

            (1) Use his or her official authority or influence for interfering with an election; affecting the course or outcome of an election; soliciting votes for a particular candidate or issue; or requiring or soliciting political contributions from others.

            (2) Be a candidate for, or hold, civil office except as authorized in subsections D.2. and D.3., below.

            (3) Participate in partisan political management, campaigns, or conventions.

            (4) Make campaign contributions to another r of the Armed Forces or an employee of the Federal Government.



    Parent
    Failure to obey a lawful general order (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:02:30 AM EST
    or published regulation is a court-martial offense.

    Disobeying orders is not favored in the military.

    It's also called insubordination, also a court-martial offense.

    We had this happen in 2006, too.  The way it works out - as long as they're supporting the Republican position, they don't get trouble.  When its a Dem, watch out.

    You know - IOKIYAR.

    Parent

    If they are commenting on policy (none / 0) (#199)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:18:52 AM EST
    rather than a candidate they will get away with it in the same way many of the soldiers that disagree with being Iraq have managed to get away with dissenting out loud.

    It's incredibly one sided to say that soldiers on the ground in Iraq have the ability to sound off on being in Iraq and how they perceive things are going and what direction we need to go then say the leaders of these soldiers are somehow going to get in trouble if they weigh in as well. Particularly if these leaders have the blessing of the CIC for stating their positions(as I am sure the case is here.)

    As much as you might like this to be a blatant violation I daresay it will register as one. The military and how it chooses to enforce its regulations is alot more complex than people are making it out to be.

    Parent

    Agree. (none / 0) (#11)
    by wasabi on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:13:36 AM EST
    I'm not sure what you expect to happen, but I agree this is a very dangerous situation for our country when the military becomes overtly involved in politics.

    Parent
    The Bush Admin has politicized (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:36:31 AM EST
    every aspect of gov't, including the military, whose leadership has been corrupted. How far down the rot extends is anyone's guess, but if it has infected the Officer's Corps...

    Parent
    Are you new to America? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:32:57 AM EST
    Are you a fool? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:38:09 AM EST
    Bad question.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#53)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:06:25 AM EST
    We'll see.

    Parent
    No heh (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:34:58 AM EST
    Take the personal insults out of your comments or you will be suspended from my threads.

    Parent
    What will be intriguing... (none / 0) (#151)
    by rottenart on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:12:41 AM EST
    ...much like watching a car wreck, will be to see the contortions into which the press will twist itself to show how the military wasn't interfering with the election. I imagine it will involve Al-Maliki, Bush, some lower level functionaries... Anything to prove that it wasn't Obama's election years stance that caused the undercutting.  

    Don't worry, the good ol' MSM will make sure that the public has no idea what's going on.

    Parent

    If only Congress could credibly threaten them. . . (3.00 / 2) (#18)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:31:26 AM EST
    What, like it threatened the White House? (none / 0) (#37)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:50:36 AM EST
    This is something the military will have to deal with from within. I'd suspect that the core of the military is not happy with what's been happening at the top. President Obama could probably help things along by picking his military people wisely. And think Wesley Clark as Sec of Def...

    Parent
    Requirement that the Sec. of Defense (none / 0) (#43)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:54:27 AM EST
    be retired from the military for 10 years prior to the appointment.

    Clark does not meet that requirement.

    Parent

    I believe that can be waived (none / 0) (#44)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:55:48 AM EST
    And for someone like Clark I imagine it easily would be.

    Parent
    IIRC doesn't any type of waiver require (none / 0) (#49)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:59:38 AM EST
    Congressional action?

    Parent
    It does (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:01:16 AM EST
    The point here is that a Dem President can expect a waiver from a Dem Congress.

    But Obama won't pick Clark anyway so the point is moot.

    Parent

    IF (none / 0) (#178)
    by kredwyn on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:37:12 AM EST
    the Dem Congress had a backbone and a knowledge of such things.

    Those two items are...well...questionable.

    Parent

    naw (2.00 / 1) (#25)
    by ribbon on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:39:36 AM EST
    I don't think Obama goes down too well in  military circles. Clinton (Bill) didn't - and Obama's far left of Clinton.

    At least Kerry served in the Navy and, moreover, volunteered for a ToD.

    Obama just isn't even in the same league there.

    Parent

    Nonsequitor (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:40:41 AM EST
    please (none / 0) (#59)
    by ribbon on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:13:28 AM EST
    name one single fallacy in my previous post.

    Obama IS left of Bill Clinton

    The Pentagon and the military wERE quite contemptuous of Bill Clinton.

    Obama DOES NOT have an ounce of military experience under his belt - unlike Kerry.

    I'll even go so far as to add that you can bet that the miltary suspects that Obama will slash their budget just as Clinton did - which again doesn't lend himself well to popularity among military circles.

    Parent

    he did name (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by eric on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:33:06 AM EST
    the fallacy:  Non sequitur

    In other words, what you wrote doesn't follow from what you responded to.

    I would also add that it just plain nonsensical.  The experience or lack of experience of Clinton or Obama has nothing to do with BTD's comment about the propriety of the behavior of these military commanders.

    Get it?

    Parent

    eric (none / 0) (#117)
    by ribbon on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:49:42 AM EST
    um, you DID read Ga6thDem's comment, no? - the one BTD disagreed with?

    Note to self: contrary to my previous assumption, following the thread of responses is not - I reapeat not - something all of us do automatically.

    Parent

    I suspect that this (none / 0) (#131)
    by eric on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:59:47 AM EST
    might be a waste of my time, but here goes...

    You wrote:


    naw, I don't think Obama goes down too well in  military circles. Clinton (Bill) didn't - and Obama's far left of Clinton.

    At least Kerry served in the Navy and, moreover, volunteered for a ToD.

    Obama just isn't even in the same league there.

    It was clearly in response to BTD who wrote:

    A blatantly unlawful act by them
    They better stop it or find themselves in serious trouble.

    That is the non sequitur.  What you wrote was just some kind of justification that you have for why people might not like Clinton or Obama.  It had nothing whatever to do with the issue of the propriety of this type of behavior by those in the milityary.

    You weren't replying to Ga6thDem's comment.  If you were, and just clicked in the wrong place, you wouldn't have written, "naw".  Anyway.  I am just doing this to point out to you that you won't get away with fudging around here.


    Parent

    You're first fallacy is not (none / 0) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:14:52 AM EST
    understanding what the word nonsequitor means.

    Parent
    Who the hell are the military and Pentagon (none / 0) (#66)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:22:17 AM EST
    to be contemptuous of any civilian leadership elected by the people of the USA? Do you condone this type of nonsense from the military leadership?

    Parent
    false premise (none / 0) (#93)
    by wumhenry on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:37:18 AM EST
    Uh, Obama hasn't been elected yet by the people of the USA.

    Parent
    No, just (none / 0) (#154)
    by rottenart on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:14:45 AM EST
    the People of Illinois.

    Parent
    What exactly (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:44:48 AM EST
    is going to happen? This went on in 2004 and nothing happened. Expect more of this in the coming months. According to my family member in the military there's huge animosity towards Obama in the service.

    Any verbal attack on the military will be seen as "Obama hates the military." Obama had a huge strategic blunder during the primaries by not getting his own "wing commanders" and later by throwing Gen. Clark under the bus.

    Parent

    Please cite what they did in 2004 please (none / 0) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:59:13 AM EST
    You are incorrect.

    Parent
    Petraeus (none / 0) (#83)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:33:32 AM EST
    op ed in the Wa Po in Sept 2004 was pretty much an endorsement of the Bush policy don't you think?

    Parent
    It was in my opinion (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:42:10 AM EST
    Most of the military wants out of Iraq though too.  If Obama leads them out of Iraq decisively they'll like him more.  If he removes the Iraqis who worked with us and doesn't leave them behind to be murdered that would be even better still.

    Parent
    Indeed it was (none / 0) (#91)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:36:31 AM EST
    And he was roundly criticized for it and never said another word after that.

    HE will not repeat that mistake.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#102)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:42:05 AM EST
    that's probably why all the officers are now going to the press anonymously.

    Parent
    In serious trouble? (none / 0) (#86)
    by Emma on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:34:37 AM EST
    From whom?

    Parent
    I agree with Truthsayer (none / 0) (#198)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:10:17 AM EST
    Military members can communicate with they just have to go through the chain and make the chain aware of what they will be conveying. Guess who is at the top of the chain BTD?(Mr use the military for a photo op) Guess who he wants to win?

    I don't forsee these commanders getting into a bit of trouble.

    Parent

    Interesting. That's bad--really bad. (none / 0) (#17)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:30:46 AM EST
    Who said what? (none / 0) (#28)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:41:17 AM EST
    Is it any different than anything else they have siad that is in disagreement with Congressional Dems that want a timeline?

    Parent
    They (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:50:19 AM EST
    don't allow reporters to use their names, only "commanders and officers on the ground in Iraq". I was at the gym working out but the gist of the story was that they didn't agree with Obama's proposal and that the facts on the ground didn't support his statements.

    Parent
    Any names given (none / 0) (#111)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:46:21 AM EST
    Do you have link?  I want to read it.

    Parent
    Anonymously (none / 0) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:52:39 AM EST
    It was reported on the cable news yesterday. I was at the gym and they were talking about this. The reported said that "military commanders on the ground" dispute Obama's statements and don't believe that we can get out of there in 16 months. Of course, I thought that Obama had also said that we were going to stay longer than 16 months too.

    Parent
    Wes Clark wouldn't have allowed (none / 0) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:15:34 AM EST
    these hooligans to run him out of his job :)  There are still Wes Clark style leaders in the military right now, they just have nice quiet jobs.  Also, some who left will come back but there are some very quiet Clarkies punching the clock right now too.

    Parent
    I am amazed (none / 0) (#3)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:39:37 AM EST
    That the Bush administration "understand(s) that they're a sovereign country"

    I wonder if Cheney agrees with that?

    Of course Cheney knows Iraq is a sovereign power. (none / 0) (#32)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:45:08 AM EST
    Belligerent military occupations are an unhappy fact of life/history. As such they are countenanced, as long as the occcupiers are constrained  by the laws of war, under the Hague Conventions of 1907 and Geneva Convention of 1949.

    There is, unfortunately, nothing "amazing" about what we are doing in Iraq.

    Parent

    Your kidding! (none / 0) (#203)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:20:46 AM EST
    Belligerent military occupations have happened before!! Who knew!

    Parent
    "leverage" (none / 0) (#4)
    by p lukasiak on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:42:16 AM EST
    this is politics BTD.  The question isn't whether the sovereign state of Iraq can tell the US to leave, its the current Iraqi government working to dictate the terms of a withdrawal that will result in the al-Maliki faction maintaining power after the US has "withdrawn".

    Oh, I think the question is indeed (none / 0) (#15)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:26:35 AM EST
    whether the state of Iraq can tell us to leave. The Bush Admin is making perfectly clear that we will not be leaving any time soon, and John McCain is a little ambiguous on the point. Via Pat Lang:
    Just now, McCain said that there are agreements between Maliki's government and the US concerning the circumstances and timing of US forces' departures.

    He said that these are circumstances based, not date based.

    The implication was clear in the way that he said this.  That implication is that withdrawal must be based on mutual agreement.

    We are the occupying power. We have the final say. We will only be outta there if Obama is elected.

    Parent

    Even (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:52:25 AM EST
    if Obama is elected, I don't expect us to be out of there. I think it's going to take years to untangle the Iraq situation.

    Parent
    What do you mean by untangle? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:58:47 AM EST
    Better (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:23:23 AM EST
    word would perhaps be disengage.

    Parent
    It will take (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:37:00 AM EST
    about two years to withdraw from Iraq.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#108)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:45:19 AM EST
    it's going to take several election cycles for congress and the President to get the message. It seems no one got the message in 2006 and I think it's unlikely that either Obama or McCain will get us out in the next four years. IMO, it will 2012 when something is finally done.

    Parent
    I use "resolve" (none / 0) (#109)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:46:03 AM EST
    and as I said before I tire of the unilateral discussions.

    A resolution of the Iraq situation requires the cooperation of multiple parties: the US, the UN, the regional powers.  Either that or we pull out and hope that the civil strife goes away all by itself.  Even after the "coalition forces" leave, there will still be Sunni, Shi'ia and Kurds.  Possibly al Quaeda too.

    Parent

    The latter has all moved to Afghanistan. (none / 0) (#210)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:25:35 PM EST
    Untangling the Situation (none / 0) (#141)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:05:21 AM EST
    I am utterly baffled by people who think we can create a stable Iraq.  Does no one study history any more?  

    One last time--nothing we can do is going to "fix" the political situation in Iraq.  As with Northern Ireland and Israel/Egypt, stability is going to have to come from the citizens themselves.  

    You can impose war on a nation but you can't impose peace.  

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:44:23 AM EST
    I really meant "untangle ourselves from Iraq". Apparently my post was poorly worded since you and BTD both didn't get my point.

    Parent
    Glad You Cleared That Up (none / 0) (#217)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:58:02 PM EST
    I should've realized I wasn't interpreting it correcly.  I seldom disagree with you.

    Parent
    Obama is not going to alienate the military (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by kempis on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:25:07 AM EST
    If he does, it will weaken his candidacy. If he wins, it will weaken his presidency.

    We will only be outta there if Obama is elected.

    I honestly no longer think there will be much difference between Obama and McCain on Iraq. I think we probably have few options that won't result in immediate disaster in Iraq, so our path out is narrow and tricky. Obama has always said that a precipitous withdrawal would be disastrous. And while I have no intention of voting for McCain, I don't think he is nuts. He surely knows that we cannot afford to stay there indefinitely.

    It's an amazingly complex problem that we can thank George W. Bush for. Leaving is not going to be a simple matter of packing up and moving on.

    Parent

    Immediate Disaster (none / 0) (#150)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:11:51 AM EST
    I think we probably have few options that won't result in immediate disaster in Iraq, so our path out is narrow and tricky.

    What could possibly be more disastrous for the Iraqis than the damage we have already inflicted on them?

    Friedman would be proud of you.

    Parent

    All-out civil war (none / 0) (#191)
    by kempis on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:59:33 AM EST
    Saying that we can't just pack up and move out is not the same as denying we've screwed up royally and destroyed the lives of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and created more ill-will that we cannot afford.

    Unfortunately we have to leave carefully--as Obama has said repeatedly. People who think he's going to whisk us out of there quickly are in for some serious disappointment. I wish we could leave quickly. I wish we had never invaded Iraq in the first place. I'm as frustrated and heartsick about Iraq as you are. I just don't see an easy solution--and I wish I did.

    Parent

    Wake up (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:20:06 AM EST
    You cling to the belief that you can invade a nation for no reason, kill hundreds of thousands if not million, displace five million people from their homes, bomb and destroy and maim...and still somehow we'll make a good show of it.

    Nothing, I repeat, nothing the Iraqis can do to themselves will approach the murderous destruction we have rained down on them.  We are the most equipped killing machine in the history of mankind.  No civil war is going to be worse, BECAUSE at least then Iraqis will be able to forge their OWN ugly history, just like we were able to.

    Living in a dreamworld, where serial killers can somehow endear themselves to their victim, is delusion of the highest order.

    There are no easy answers because we can never be part of the answer.  Being a cold blooded killer with no remorse does that.

    Parent

    Some Of the Posts Here (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:15:06 PM EST
    are beginning to scare me.

    "The surge is working" and "we must go slowly out of Iraq" are hard-core Republican memes.  Suddenly Democrats are buying them.  Why?

    Is it because both phrases have come out of Barack Obama's mouth?  We called Republicans "liars" when they said that.  Now we sing the same song.

    Is that all it takes to abandon our core principles...a few words from our presumed candidate?  

    Sorry, BTD...kempis wandered off-topic and I followed.  But this needs to be pointed out.  We're becoming Republicans and no one seems to notice.

    Parent

    I wish you'd both respond respond to what I wrote (none / 0) (#225)
    by kempis on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 02:28:48 PM EST
    and not what you think I said.

    Here's what happened. Someone said we wouldn't leave Iraq unless Obama was elected. I said we probably won't be leaving any sooner even if he is elected. Part of that is political: fear of alienating the military and feeding the old "Dems hate the military" meme. Part of it is the trickiness of leaving. If when we leave, all hell breaks out, then we'll be held responsible for even more death and destruction.

    I'm aware that there's never going to be a pot o' gold at the end of the rainbow. I've said I wished we could leave immediately. But even if we could, apparently we won't. See the Democrats in Congress.

    Anyone who thinks Obama is going to get us out of Iraq quick is engaging in wishful thinking. That's all I'm saying. I'll hush now.

    Oh, and I'm no longer a Democrat. I'm an Independent. Being told by Obama-supporters that Hillary and her supporters couldn't be real Democrats convinced me that I no longer wanted to belong to a party that didn't welcome me. Apparently, I made the right decision.

    I'll bow out of this thread. Sorry if I took it off-topic.

    Parent

    This makes no sense (5.00 / 1) (#226)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 06:02:08 PM EST
    Obama and Dems won't take troops out of  Iraq out of fear of appearing to hate the military and for fear of alienating the military?

    The last time I checked, the military in this country worked for the elected civilian leadership, not the other way around. And Dems have much more to fear from angry voters for keeping us there than from anybody in the military.

    BTW, FMr Commander of the U.S. Central Command, Adm Fallon, lost his job because he thought (contrary to Bush and Petraeus) that our military is bogged down in a pointless military action in the ME while other areas of the globe ( Pacific Rim, SE Asia) are getting ignored by us. China is making huge strides (extending influence)  in those regions while we continually lose ground.  Fallon is not alone in that assessment.

    Parent

    My Apologies (none / 0) (#228)
    by creeper on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:20:25 AM EST
    I thought you were arguing in favor of a slow withdrawal.  Maybe you're just looking at Obama's reality.  

    But you used the phrase "even if we could leave immediately".  That seems to imply we can't and this is where we differ.  I believe we can leave immediately.  It's easy.  You just pack your bags and get on the next plane. We did it in Viet Nam.  We didn't leave any residual "peacekeeping" force behind and the country didn't disintegrate.  They were so glad to have us out of there they barely scrapped with each other at all.  They just set about building a new country to replace the one we destroyed.

    The exit strategy for Iraq is simple:  leave.

    Parent

    nonsense (none / 0) (#51)
    by ribbon on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:06:01 AM EST
    what rubbish. Wtihdrawal by virtue of circumstance is the only reasonable and logical criterion.

    Any specific timeline - of the kind Obama advocates - set against the backdrop of "victory" is basically just optimistic speculation  

    Parent

    Ha. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:15:08 AM EST
    The mission will be to withdraw. Period. The only "circumstances" that should affect the mission should be safety of our troops, supply lines, etc. I suspect you and McCain are referring to other "circumstances" that will conveniently keep us in Iraq for another 100 years.

    Parent
    the circumstances (none / 0) (#77)
    by ribbon on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:27:39 AM EST
    oh wise-one, are nothing short of a reasonably secure and self-sufficient Iraq.

    And thanks in part to the surge, things are heading that way fast.

    The time to cut-and-run was 4 years ago. However, $750 billion dollars later, you don't think another $100 billion is worth it if it means a pro-Western pro-Democratic, unified and economical-growing Iraq?

    Parent

    You have posted nothing but rubbish (1.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:14:15 AM EST
    since you started commenting at this site.

    I suggest you save the epithets for other sites .

    Parent

    The Mystery of the (Lap)Dog That Didn't Bark (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:46:48 AM EST
    If the credulous, undiscerning media never asked about Iraq's "toy sovereignity"* the first time around, why would they question it now?

    Iraq's phony sovereignty was one of those Clap-Louder If You Believe, self-attributed, fake milestones of Bush's War on Whatever.

    The media preferred the happier, feelgood exercise of covering the Bushian Happy Happy War War Man-Dance; better ratings, I suppose.

    And BTW, BTD, don't forget Obama's huge back exit to his 16-mo timeline of leaving troops there to vanquish "al Qaeda in Mesopotamia".

    This sets up a near impossibie to achieve metric of regional stability, rather than Iraq-specific stability, and is no briefer than McCain's likelihood to keep'em there in perpetuity.

    * Re: Iraq's "toy sovereignty", I always imagine it like the governmental version of Maggie Simpson's lil' plastic steering wheel in the Simpsons opening credits.

    I think Israel holds some cards in this game. (none / 0) (#8)
    by Saul on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:02:57 AM EST
    Israel, wants the U.S. there.  Anything that makes their lives more secure in the region they are for it.  I think they also do not want the troops to leave.  Of course they will not be satisfed until they know Iran cannot produce a nuclear weapon.  Ironically if that happens they will be the only ones in the region to have nuclear weapons.

    However, I had always said that you cannot get a more perfect excuse to get out of something you should never gotten into, like having that government tell you its time to go.  The Bush administration could make great political hay  by taking advantage of this excellent opportunity and tell the American people the following:

    Well we did our best, we made history and created a democracy here and wish we could stay and do more but I will abide by the wishes of the Iraq government and its leaders, therefore I will begin a timely and careful  withdrawal of our troops.

    The republicans would look great, not to mention that our troops would be coming home, in November since Iraq would no longer be a major issue and it would take away Obama's thunder on this issue.

    If they throw this away then it proves a previous point that the Bush administration always had a more permanent stake in Iraq that of a permanent U.S. military station. It would also prove that future American lives lost mean nothing to Bush.

    Not so (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:53:42 AM EST
    sure that getting out of Iraq helps McCain since he polls better on national security and Iraq than Obama.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#76)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:25:37 AM EST
    McCain polls better on Iraq than Obama? What are you talking about? An overwhelming majority of Americans want us out of there NOW. Obama has introduced a reasonable timetable, now endorsed by Iraq's PM, and McCain wants to keep us there indefinitely. You make no sense.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#80)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:30:23 AM EST
    people may want us out but they still trust McCain by huge margins on that issue. Rasmussen reported it yesterday. Perhaps they feel that McCain would be better equipped to deal with the situation at hand.

    Parent
    So what you're saying is, (none / 0) (#130)
    by JohnS on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:59:12 AM EST
    the American people overwhelmingly want our troops out of Iraq, as Obama intends to do. But if we don't pull our troops out of Iraq, they'd prefer that McCain manage the war they don't want. You still wanna stick with that?

    Parent
    Look (none / 0) (#177)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:36:19 AM EST
    it's what the polls say. Many times "strong and wrong" beats "weak and right". People want out but don't want to admit defeat either do they? Do they think pulling out equates defeat? People are tired of the war but don't think Obama's competent to handle what's left? Or they think that Obama really might screw things up worse than they are now? The polls say what the polls say. You are going to have to deduce the deeper meaning.

    Parent
    Most telling of Perino's idiocy---- (none / 0) (#9)
    by wurman on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:05:34 AM EST
    ----"talking about specific negotiating tactics or your negotiating position in the press . . . ."

    Who or what entity in this Galaxy would have ever thought that Bu$hInc was "negotiating" with Iraq?

    Just what is it that the neokonz think they are haggling over?  Status of forces?  The short-term, 1-year oil contracts have been let, so are they squabbling about the long-term leases?

    As Big Tent makes clear--the presence or withdrawal of troops is not something to argue about, or is it?  Is there a screw-up over location, numbers, & armaments for the troops to protect the USA embassy?

    Who are the negotiators?  Who's face-to-face?

    And is Paul Lukasiak correct that al Maliki wants to "negotiate" his own propped-up status into perpetuity--or at least his own lifetime?

    Finally, does the world perhaps have a "Kurdish Autonomous Zone" developing--or some other form of "Berlin Wall / 38th Parallel / Vietnam DMZ 17th Parallel" asinine non-solution to divide the Sunni-Shia-Kurd problem?

    Won't McCain's input to those issues be brilliant?

    I wonder if this is a universal thing (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:30:27 AM EST
    I mean, I would not be comfortable if the Albanian ethnic majority decided to demand that the U.N. forces leave immediately. Not until I was satisfied that they were actually committed to protecting minority Serb rights. Ultimately I am not an isolationist like Ron Paul and I do believe that if we can help in situations like this we should.

    The reason we should leave Iraq is because our presence there is not constructive, it's destructive.

    Well (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:35:51 AM EST
    Are you saying that Maliki is saying he is planning to exterminate the Sunnis? And if so, WHEN can we leave?

    Parent
    No, I am not (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:41:55 AM EST
    I do not think that Maliki is necessarily a bad actor.  If I thought Makiki were going to exterminate the Sunnis, I would indeed feel very uncomfortable leaving--assuming we could do anything to stop that form happening.  From what I can tell, he spends most of his time trying to keep either the Iranians or the White House from dispatching him.

     We have to leave because we can't fix the problems, not because Maliki can.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:49:14 AM EST
    I think there will be an high intensity civil war when we leave.

    WHENEVER we leave. Take your pick. We stay forever or there is a high intensity civil war. Those are the choices. They have not changed since 2003.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#38)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:51:15 AM EST
    And it makes me sick that there's nothing we can do.

    Parent
    That is why this silliness (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:58:16 AM EST
    about the Surge succeeding is so much drivel.

    IF when we leave there is going to be a high intensity civil war any way, how could we possibly succeed?

    Parent

    The surge succeeded (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:08:47 AM EST
    because the Democrats were too cowed to advance a sufficiently compelling counter-narrative.

    Of course it makes no sense that "the surge succeeded" and yet we still cannot leave without total chaos ensuing, but that's where we are.  "The surge succeeded" has become a stipulated fact.  Heck, Obama taking the negative stuff about the surge off his website should be the final nail in the coffin.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:24:34 AM EST
    I wrote so at the time.

    Parent
    I agree. I don't think there will be stability (none / 0) (#39)
    by Angel on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:51:21 AM EST
    in the country anytime soon.  

    Parent
    aparrently neither does Obama (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:42:07 AM EST
    Today on CBS's Face the Nation, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., in Afghanistan, told the paparazzi-pursued correspondent Lara Logan that "the objective of this trip was to have substantive discussions with people like President Karzai or Prime Minister Maliki or President Sarkozy or others who I expect to be dealing with over the next eight to 10 years.

    **

    ten years.   hmmm.  but I thought 8 was the . . . .
    never mind.

    Parent

    This Is Weird (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:24:14 AM EST
    others who I expect to be dealing with over the next eight to 10 years.

    Remember last week when he made a comment about things that happened "when I was a Senator"?  

    He still has two years to go on his term.  It's hard to escape the conclusion that he's somehow mentally added those two to the eight he could serve in the White House.

    These are fundamental errors of comprehension.  It's depressing to see them made by someone who thinks he should be the next President.

    Parent

    At least he's not confusing (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by independent voter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:02:31 AM EST
    Sunni and Shi'ia and Afghanistan and Iraq.
    I find his "misspeaks" to be far less worrisome than McCain's

    Parent
    Amen. (none / 0) (#207)
    by rottenart on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:44:46 AM EST
    There are those who will ascribe nefarious overtones to every word that comes out of his mouth. Obama seems to think and consider his positions, minor gaffes notwithstanding. Mccain seems to not know what the heck is going on half the time.

    Parent
    I Am Not Defending McCain (none / 0) (#224)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:26:58 PM EST
    with this post.  But I would point out that the intricacies of the Sunni/Shiite relationship have confused smarter men than John McCain.

    Obama's gaffes are basic errors that show a man who does not understand the reality of his own place in time.

    Parent

    Change "thinks he should be" to (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:33:01 PM EST
    "thinks he is."  

    Parent
    Give that Man a Cheroot (none / 0) (#222)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:20:22 PM EST
    oculus nailed it.  In Obama's mind he has already made the transition.  In fact, I think he made it two years ago when the powers-that-be annointed him.  

    That accounts for the math.

    Parent

    The question IMO is not so much when (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:22:44 AM EST
    can we leave but when will the U.S. be willing to leave.

    I'm defining leave as withdrawing ALL U.S. troops and U.S. paid contractors from Iraq. Obama has not made any "commitment" to do that.

    I'm not arguing about your point that we should leave or your assessment of what will happen if we ever did leave.  What I am saying is that neither candidate has ever suggested leaving Iraq as defined above.

    Parent

    andgarden, (none / 0) (#227)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 07:02:29 PM EST
    citing the Serbs was a poor choice.  They may be a minority in numbers but they make up for it in sheer viciousness.

    See this story:
    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/22/sarajevo.rape/index.html

    Parent

    makes sense (none / 0) (#20)
    by ribbon on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:35:08 AM EST
    maybe they feel Maliki may not have his country's best interest at heart.

    Isn't BTD the one who raves that the entire Iraqi government is controlled by Iran? Accepting that premise alone would merit suspicion of Maliki's intentions...

    So we stay forever? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:36:38 AM EST
    I wonder that you do not even think about what you are saying.

    We have installed a pro-Iranian government. Suck on that.

    Parent

    Don't think we should stay forever ... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:09:13 AM EST
    but I think we will.

    We're still in Korea.

    Parent

    Oh gawd (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:13:09 AM EST
    Why not compare to post-WWII Germany while you're at it.

    The GOP talking points coming straight from your mouth.

    Parent

    Obama's not advocating a full withdrawal ... (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:20:08 AM EST
    either.  Just combat troops.

    No serious player is advocating full withdrawal.  So I think it's safe to assume that we won't get one.

    Call it a GOP talking point if you like.  It just looks like the only reasonable extrapolation to me.

    I favor a full withdrawal.

    Parent

    Having troops in Iraq (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:25:18 AM EST
    does not matter.

    Having troops FIGHTING in Iraq is the issue.

    Parent

    To me both things matter ... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:34:12 AM EST
    I don't understand (none / 0) (#148)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:10:27 AM EST
    how BTD sounds like McCain at all.  In the military combat troops know combat and support troops know how to support.  The branch where everyone must be a "killer" first are the Marines.  Why wouldn't you want to enable the Iraqi government logistically while they build their own infrastructure that we destroyed?

    Parent
    Surprisingly (to me), in the Der Spiegel (none / 0) (#213)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:35:06 PM EST
    interview, Maliki stated the entire electricity grid must be rebuilt.  But, I thought U.S. already paid through the nose to do that.

    Parent
    You Just Can't Get Good Help These Days (none / 0) (#215)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:41:23 PM EST
    Even when you pay through the nose, especially if it is Haliburton.

    Parent
    as you have pointed out (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:39:28 AM EST
    Iraq is not Korea or Germany.  as long as our troops are in the middle east they are in danger.


    Parent
    Agreed, Capt ... (none / 0) (#113)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:47:17 AM EST
    frankly I'm lost.

    I guess this is another Obama maxim:  When is staying forever, not staying forever?

    When Obama says it isn't.

    Parent

    Whatever Obama does (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:51:39 AM EST
    if (big if) he gets the chance to be in charge, on this and only this you can rely:

    He will say it's what he told us he said.

    (And no doubt, he will be disappointed that we weren't listening well.)

    Parent

    Having Troops In Iraq Does Matter (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:27:36 AM EST
    It's not about them killing more Iraqis...it's about the Iraqis killing more of them.

    We have wasted four thousand of our people in that hell-hole.  There is no justification for squandering one more life over there.  None.

    Parent

    That's my feeling as well ... (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:35:32 AM EST
    and Obama still favors further combat operations:

    After this redeployment, a residual force in Iraq would perform limited missions: going after any remnants of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia

    Obama's position may be better than McCain's, but he's not advocating a full withdrawal, and he's not advocating an end to combat operations.

    So, still, to me, staying forever seems to be what's gonna happen.

    Parent

    I don't want to jump to conclusions (none / 0) (#185)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:49:29 AM EST
    about what certain things mean and don't mean at this juncture.  We had troops in Turkey, Kuwait, Egypt...many other countries in the region long before Bush started the Iraq War.

    Parent
    No jumping to conclusions is required ... (none / 0) (#189)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:57:21 AM EST
    Obama supports retaining a residual force which will continue combat operations.

    That's what he's said.

    Parent

    Not What He Said (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:05:19 AM EST
    Nice twist. Regardless of what will happen he explicitly said that he was withdrawing all combat troops. Since has repeated this over and over ad nauseam it is obvious that you are reversing the quote intentionally in order to spread misinformation.

    link

    Parent

    All I'm saying is both McCain and Obama (none / 0) (#205)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:25:35 AM EST
    advocate some version of "staying forever."

    I'm not twisting anything, I'm just looking at what they're saying.

    Residual force in Iraq = staying.

    Missions against Al Qaeda = combat.

    Parent

    since when was the alternative (none / 0) (#65)
    by ribbon on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:20:16 AM EST
    to immediate withdrawal "Staying forever"?

    C'mon, you're a self-proclaimed centrist aren't you? - you think in greys not black and white.

    Look, unless you can direct me to some of your own pieces (or others) articulating the argument that the Iraq government is controlled by Iran to the effect that I've seen you assert multiple times in your posts, I'm concluding that you're assertions of such effect are superficial at best.

    And don't think I havn't noticced that your alterted semantics there "pro-Iranian" government is a fair bit toned down from your previous comments in these posts.

    Parent

    What is the alternative to (none / 0) (#79)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:29:47 AM EST
    leaving Iraq poised for high intensity civil war?

    You have no thought or rational answer for the obvious question.

    BTW, you get one last warning. Depersonalize your comments or you will be suspended from my threads.

    I really do not like you as a commenter anyway so tread carefully. I would love for an excuse to suspend you from my posts.

    Parent

    thats really the nub of the issue (none / 0) (#138)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:02:40 AM EST
    isnt it?  do we leave now and deal with $XX dollar a gallon gas or do we stay and try to keep the lid on.
    personally I am glad its not my decision.


    Parent
    With Bush or McCain in office (none / 0) (#35)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 08:49:57 AM EST
    The Iraqis have no more chance of getting us out than they had of preventing us from coming in to begin with.  By process of elimination of all other possible rationales for the war, I am left with permanent occupation and control of the oil supply.

    I doubt we have trained and supplied the Iraqi Army well enough to kick us out.

    Leverage...hmmm...must be a nicer way (none / 0) (#54)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:06:27 AM EST
    of saying, "You want us to leave?  Fine - make it worth our while."  We'll leave as soon as they have met our price - and I'm pretty sure we're not planning on any deep discounts.  The Bush Administration must be enraged that Obama is on the scene, mucking up the plan - how petrified are they that Obama might be elected before the big payoff has been squeezed out of the Iraqi government?

    Really completes the picture of America-as-Bully.

    For what it's worth, I listened to a conversation with Nisid Hajari, a Newsweek senior editor, who has an article in this week's issue.   Hajari said in the interview that he does not think it likely that civil war will erupt once we leave.  Just another person's opinion, but the article is interesting.

    BTD, You Don't Really Think (none / 0) (#71)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:23:49 AM EST
    that what the Iraqis want carries any weight with this "administration", do you?

    To answer the question posed by your title: because we're more powerful, more ruthless than they are.  

    That "sovereign nation" business is just lip service.  So long as there's oil in Mesopotamia and a Republican in Washington the United States will occupy Iraq.

    It depends what they're asking for (none / 0) (#175)
    by dianem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:36:05 AM EST
    If the Iraqis simply want the U.S. out, they should simply be able to ask and we should do it, presuming that we don't intend on being an occupational force. However, I suspect that they want more than just our leaving. The Iraqi government is not all that stable right now. American corporations are working on various projects throughout Iraq, and they will want protection or they will pull out. Is Iraq ready to simply fly solo? I doubt it. They want something from the U.S., and we want something from them, almost certainly having to do in part with their oil resources. It probably isn't as simple as "don't let the door hit you on the ass as you leave".

    The Leverage We Have Over Them (none / 0) (#179)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:37:43 AM EST
    Is billions in oil money. BushCo will not let the Saddam era UN sanctions disolve until the Iraqi's sign the oil and security agreements.

    The money from the oil is going into a fund.

    The US is holding hostage some $50bn (£25bn) of Iraq's money in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York to pressure the Iraqi government into signing an agreement seen by many Iraqis as prolonging the US occupation indefinitely, according to information leaked to The Independent.

    US negotiators are using the existence of $20bn in outstanding court judgments against Iraq in the US, to pressure their Iraqi counterparts into accepting the terms of the military deal, details of which were reported for the first time in this newspaper yesterday.

    [snip]

    The fact that Iraq's financial reserves, increasing rapidly because of the high price of oil, continue to be held in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York is another legacy of international sanctions against Saddam Hussein. Under the UN mandate, oil revenues must be placed in the Development Fund for Iraq which is in the bank.

    The funds are under the control of the Iraqi government, though the US Treasury has strong influence on the form in which the reserves are held.

    Iraqi officials say that, last year, they wanted to diversify their holdings out of the dollar, as it depreciated, into other assets, such as the euro, more likely to hold their value. This was vetoed by the US Treasury because American officials feared it would show lack of confidence in the dollar.

    \

    Patrick Cockburn Independent


    More On Sovereignty (none / 0) (#211)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:29:36 PM EST
    Senior Iraqi officials have indicated that if there is no agreement [SOFA], Iraq may ask the United Nations to extend its current mandate beyond the end of the year. A text of Zebari's [Iraq Foreign Minister] prepared remarks to the Security Council, provided by the Iraqi U.N. mission, included a call to "end [the U.N. presence] in our country" and a "call upon the international community to free Iraq" from U.N. control. Lines were drawn through those phrases, and they were left out of Zebari's statement as delivered. The expiration of the U.N. mandate, in force since May 2003, poses problems for Iraq beyond the security situation. U.N. resolutions -- and an executive order by President Bush -- protect Iraqi government funds from international legal claims dating from the Saddam Hussein era.

    [snip]

    U.S. officials have denied reports that the administration has threatened to use the Iraqi money to pressure the Iraqi government. "At no time have we suggested that our interest in preserving Iraqi funds from attachment or other action within the U.S. . . . would be a lever or issue" in the negotiations, a senior U.S. official said.

    WaPo

    Parent

    The Sunnis & Shia did not fight when (none / 0) (#204)
    by Blowback on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:24:44 AM EST
    Saddam Hussein was in power.

    Really (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:04:34 PM EST
    What was this then:

    1991 Shia Revolt

    Parent

    OK, yes, you (none / 0) (#221)
    by Blowback on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:15:56 PM EST
    are right about this, but the point is there was not a civil war. The point I am trying to make is Jr. did not even know his Dad had Shia-Sunni-Kurd fights under Saddam.  Jr. had to be TOLD by a former US diplomat who the Sunni & Shia actually were, only 2 months before he began his occupation in 2003.

    "Bush did NOT know there was difference between Sunni & Shiite Muslims until Jan '03"

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/8/215257/257

    Parent

    Of Course They Didn't. (none / 0) (#216)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:56:16 PM EST
    Saddam ruled with an iron fist, from a position achieved at the point of a dagger.  Anyone who opposed him openly was executed.  

    The fact that they did not fight does not mean they got along.  They didn't, they don't and we can't make them.

    Parent

    Thread has been cleaned (none / 0) (#206)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:30:29 AM EST
    of extraneous disputes.

    Violation of Diplomatic Protocol? (none / 0) (#208)
    by santarita on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:45:00 AM EST
    While I welcome Maliki's encouraging us to get out of Dodge sooner rather than later, it strikes me as a little unseemly that he chooses to deliver that message to the American government and to us by way of a candidate for our Presidency.  I think that there is a lot of negotiations necessary before troops can remove themselves and their equipment safely.  And Bush the Lame Duck still has an ego and will not like Obama negotiating with the Iraqis before he is elected.  

    Maliki seems to be going off the reservation.  If we aren't pulling his strings, who is?  Of course, it is possible that he really does represent the will of the Iraqi people.  In which case, if he says it is time to go, it is time to go.