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What "Egregious Crimes?" Part 3

(Parts 1 and 2.)

What does Obama legal advisor Cass Sunstein think about this idea

The proposal for a Church Committee-style investigation emerged from talks between civil liberties advocates and aides to Democratic leaders in Congress, according to sources involved. . . . Looking forward to 2009, when both Congress and the White House may well be controlled by Democrats, the idea is to have Congress appoint an investigative body to discover the full extent of what the Bush White House did in the war on terror to undermine the Constitution and U.S. and international laws. The goal would be to implement government reforms aimed at preventing future abuses -- and perhaps to bring accountability for wrongdoing by Bush officials.

Given that he endorsed the Bush Administration's lawlessness, I feel confident that he will oppose this idea. It is another reason why Cass Sunstein should have no place in an Obama Administration and should never be referred to as a progressive legal scholar. He has a long history of endorsing the extreme right wing legal views of the Bush Administration on executive power.

Speaking for me only

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    It will never happen (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by mmc9431 on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 09:45:52 AM EST
    I think anyone that thinks a serious investigation of the misconducts of this administration will happen is being very naive or delusional. Between Obama's unity theme and the Democratic leadership (that marched in step with Bush), I see absolutely no chance of us ever really finding out the extent of the damage, let alone anyone being held accountable.

    The whole point of unity... (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by lambert on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 11:09:33 AM EST
    ... is that nobody is held accountable.

    Which would explain why the Village was always solid for Obama, would it not?

    Parent

    As long as those Democrats who (5.00 / 8) (#6)
    by Anne on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 10:33:04 AM EST
    were briefed on many of these programs, and who gave the green light probably to more than we even know, are still serving in the Congress, there will be no investigation.  There is just no way that Pelosi and Harman and Rockefeller - to name a few - are going to let that happen.  And Obama, who has had the benefit of the leadership's support, is not going to bite the hand that helped him get elected, should that be the outcome.  

    No freakin' way.

    As horrifying as the crimes themselves are, the real master stroke here was the Bush administration's baiting the hook with the Dems' own fears that they would be cast as weak on national security, watching them bite, and keeping them on that hook with the knowledge that any investigation of Bush would reveal their own complicity and guilt.

    I'm sure the Bushies chortle and snicker and rub their hands with glee over their diabolical cleverness, because they know nothing is going to happen as long as those Democrats are still in office.


    I could not agree more (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by ruffian on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 11:04:15 AM EST
    The smartest thing the Bushies did was to get Dems complicit in this every step of the way.   Combine that with Obama's innate distaste for what the Village will call a "partisan fight", and I am sure it will take a non-government organized activity of some sort to bring it all to light.  

    Parent
    i agree with your (none / 0) (#35)
    by sancho on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 03:35:34 PM EST
    analysis but i fear you exaggerate the extent to which the dems compromised themselves (or understand themselves to have been compromised). that is, you or i would consider ourselves compromised morally if we went along with what they went along with, but i doubt the dem leadrship felt so compromised. just part of doing business and having nice offices. no doubt the bush crew was happy with what they "got away with" but i think they learned long ago you can go very far by never underestimating the depravity of others who would be in power. pelosi is running a depraved, corrupt party whose only shred of moral authority depends on people believing that the republicans are worse and that the democrats, given enough power, might one day do something good.  i dont count on it.

    Parent
    my litmus test (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Turkana on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 10:35:49 AM EST
    how many times will obama do something that will upset david broder? has he even once, yet?

    The Democratic Party won't investigate (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by wurman on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 10:56:39 AM EST
    They will "emulate."

    After seeing how Bu$h Incorporated transferred trillions of taxpayer dollars into corporate accounts, re-invigorated the "spoils" system of Pres. A. Jackson by circumventing civil service, & seized incredible executive as well as administrative power, Democrats will exploit the opportunity & change the beneficiaries of this largesse.

    Dem-favored corporations will get the transfers of payments, Dem-affiliated serfs & peasants will get the bureaucratic staff appointments, & the Chicago-based Dems will run the system.

    Yes we can!  And will.

    A return to "honest graft"... (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by lambert on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 11:12:29 AM EST
    would be fine, but I would like a return to Constitutional government.

    Unfortunately, neither option seems to be on offer.

    Parent

    You May Be Right... (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by santarita on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 11:43:36 AM EST
    but I think that there is a core of Democrats in power that won't go quietly.  I wonder if what is needed is a groundswell from constituents.  The Pelosi wing will be content to say that the Bush Administration has been held to account for their abuses by the loss of Congressional seats and the White House.  They need to know that that is not enough.  Impeachment would have been appropriate but failure to pursue that remedy doens't mean that the change of the party in power should result in simply changing name plates.

    Parent
    They didn't even need to start impeachment (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by hairspray on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 01:43:08 PM EST
    proceedings.  There were plenty of lower level people they could have started with.  Senator Leahy had several people he could have charged with violating the Hatch Act, but not even simple small stuff ever got by.  It seemed to me that it was mostly stern letters. A "good cop, bad cop" routine was played on the American people.

    Parent
    I'm cynical. (none / 0) (#11)
    by Fabian on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 11:08:20 AM EST
    But not quite that cynical.

    OTOH, I do believe that the corps who have benefited in the past seven years will come a'knockin' wanting to strike the same mutually beneficial deals with whomever is in power.

    Parent

    I agree... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by santarita on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 11:19:01 AM EST
    the corporations and special interests hedge their bets by contributing to both parties.  Pay to play.  

    Parent
    I question if we have two political (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by my opinion on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 11:01:54 AM EST
    parties in this country.

    Interesting Article (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by santarita on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 11:38:00 AM EST
    The Salon article that you cite to in your diary was very interesting.

    I wonder if the Judiciary Committee hearing yesterday wasn't the beginning of an attempt to obtain bi-partisan support for such a Truth Commission.  It was certainly promoted by  Schwartz from the Brennan Center.    What I saw in that hearing were some awfully committed Democrats.  They attended a 4 hour meeting on a summer Friday.  Some had to reschedule air travel to stick around.  And the Republicans were not as obstructionist as they have been in some hearings.  They were definitely grumpy and definitely had their agenda (to promote the idea that impeachment is only for abuse of power for personal gain).  But I think that some of them could be persuaded to support a Truth Commission.  Liz Holtzman was good in pointing out the lack of bipartisan support at the beginning of the Nixon inquiry and how the process itself help build the support.

    As to Cass Sunstein's theory, after listening to the hearing yesterday, I think Sunstein has mixed legal concepts with political considerations.  When may impeachment be used is a different question than when it should be used.  Turley is probably the legal purist at one end of the spectrum and Presser is at the other end of the spectrum.  Sunstein is in the mushy middle.  (I liked his line about "criminalizing crimes" in one of the articles or maybe it was the Democracy Now discussion.)

    A truty commission? Is that like the 9/11 (none / 0) (#29)
    by hairspray on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 01:47:37 PM EST
    commission.  Look how footsie they played with each other.

    Parent
    Obama Presidency (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by blogtopus on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:03:39 PM EST
    It will be another 2006 letdown, imho. Promises of change, followed by inaction and capitulation (and it's looking like some serious steps in the wrong direction re: Supreme Court, Separation of Church and State). Followed by, in 2012, a new GOP admin that gets elected on the premise that the DEMs can't solve anything.

    Carter* 2.0. Yay.

    *Referring only to the results of his admin, not the man himself. I don't think anyone is fooling themselves that Obama is anywhere near the kind of man Carter is. He has a long way to go.

    Waste of time and energy (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by oldpro on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 01:05:37 PM EST
    to even think of 'a new Church-style investigation.'

    The last one finally bit the dust with the recent FISA vote!

    The Salon article linked to in this post indicates that NOT ONE legislator has spoken up for this idea...not one.  They know better than to waste their time.

    The FISA vote and Obama's support ends that discussion, I'd say.

    Of course you're right about Sunstein but since he's already 'in the parlor' having tea and sandwiches with Obama, it's a slam dunk that any civil libertarians are screwed with that crowd.

    I'm with MarkL.

    Guilt by association.  And in Obama's case, they're starting to pile up.

    I have alwasy proposed to wait until 2009 (none / 0) (#1)
    by Saul on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 09:30:06 AM EST
    to investigate the Bush and Cheney administration.  I always felt that at that time you would have a slam dunk veto proof majority to investigate all these crooks.  You saw how frustrating it is now to investigate Gonzlaez, Rowe,Liddy, etc and so many others who use the executive privilege argument.  I doubt though that Bush will leave any of his captains out there to be investigated.  I can almost guarantee he will pardon all these guys  before he leaves then you won't have anyone of high caliber to investigate.  However, the next congress should just reverse everything Bush did wrong against the constitution.  If they don't then they cannot complain anymore of the atrocities  of Bush.

    But isn't Obama's FISA (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by zfran on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 09:38:24 AM EST
    vote, in essence voting with Bush, saying just that. By Obama making a statement saying he will look into it later does not justify in any way how he voted now, so can anyone really complain in this congress, or the next? I wonder what sort of "paper" trail Bush will leave that supports some of his idiocies and atrocoties? What will the next pres. find?

    Parent
    Empty filing cabinets n/t (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:43:25 PM EST
    Slam dunk? (5.00 / 7) (#4)
    by Demi Moaned on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 09:51:14 AM EST
    Given the behavior of the current Congress, no matter how many Democrats you add I don't see how it adds up to
    a slam dunk veto proof majority

    The Republicans seem to me to have had a functional majority based on strict party discipline and their ability to pick off a sufficient number of Democrats on any controversial issue. I don't see that dynamic changing soon.

    Parent
    Dem leadership will IMO put as much effort (5.00 / 10) (#5)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 10:01:00 AM EST
    into investigating the Bush and Cheney administration as they did in impeaching Bush. They will be too busy doing important things {cough, cough} just like they have been since they received the majority in Congress.

    The expanded executive powers will be the next and future president's to use or abuse as they choose.

    Parent

    BTD, isn't this enough reason to (none / 0) (#19)
    by MarkL on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:17:09 PM EST
    categorically reject Obama?
    How would you feel if John Yoo were Obama's top legal adviser? Isn't Sunstein comparable?

    what, exactly, would be (none / 0) (#20)
    by cpinva on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:33:56 PM EST
    the point in investigating, if no charges will ever be brought against anyone in the current administration?

    either bush will issue pre-emptive pardons to everyone who ever worked for his administration, or the democrats will be afraid to actually pursue any case, or both.

    in either event, it would serve merely as a waste of time.

    to those of you who might think bush would be hesitant to issue pardons to so many people, he won't be. bear in mind, one prerequisite for being a republican is having absolutely no sense of shame or guilt, and a strong sense of entitlement.

    After pardons, there is no immunity (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by MarkL on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:40:05 PM EST
    by the 5th amendment, IIRC, so pardons could actually make an investigation easier (not that I think there is the slightest chance Obama will authorize any).

    Parent
    Reminds me (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by oldpro on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:48:29 PM EST
    of how much 'fun' we all had watching Ollie North testify.

    He almost rode that publicity to a US Senate seat...but had to settle for a TV show instead.

    Oh, well.  It pays better.

    Parent

    Purpose of Investigations (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by santarita on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:42:37 PM EST
    Accountability in the form of punishment is certainly merited and would be a great deterrent.  I'm afraid, however, that many people will look to excuse the abuse of power as an understandable reaction to 9/11.  And Congress was complicit in permitting the abuse of power.  It will be hard for Congress to indict itself.  As a practical matter, impeachment is not going to happen.

    So to me having investigations has a great deal of merit as a second best kind of remedy.  But only if the investigations result in fixing one of the major problems - an executive branch that acts more like a monarch than a President in a democracy.

    Parent

    A great deterrent? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by oldpro on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:54:18 PM EST
    Where is the evidence for that?

    Parent
    It's hard to say what ... (none / 0) (#30)
    by santarita on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 02:01:17 PM EST
    would have happened without Watergate hearings and without Iran-Contra hearings.  They were not toally effective, granted but I do think that they served to put some brakes on lawlessness.

    I do think some good can come out of letting the light shine on the abuses of the last 8 years.  I'd prefer justice but I'll settle for understanding what went wrong and figuring out how to prevent the abuses.  

    Parent

    Hmmm.... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by oldpro on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 03:20:20 PM EST
    yes, of course....hard to say what would have happened with or without this or that...

    We do know this, however:  the Watergate hearings and Nixon disgrace did not prevent Iran/Contra!  Nor did Iran/Contra hearings prevent - or even slow down - the Bush regime's lawbreaking rampage.

    So, I ask again:  "Where is the evidence?"  There is none.  Nothing stops criminals except arrest, conviction and incarceration.  (As my husband used to say when the neighbors began to lock their doors in the 70s, "locks will keep out the honest people."  It will only slow down the crooks).

    Parent

    I think these investigations are as (5.00 / 6) (#26)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:56:50 PM EST
    fishy as the Bush Administration and only serve to increase public cynicism about their government.  

    I am resigned to the fact that if we manage to hang onto a democratic system of government and possibly make incremental steps back to a more democratic government, it will be 40-50 years before we find out what really went on and actually do anything about it.

    The Democrats were worried that impeachment would be viewed as a show trial - but these investigations they are doing are far worse than that - they reveal troubling information in hearings by day and then they all go out for drinks with the perpatraitors afterwards at night.  It just makes them ALL look corrupted - which is more and more begining to be what I believe - and I was never the type to believe that all politicians are corrupt.  But this Democratic Congress has really done a good job of changing my perception of my government.

    I mean it is really angering - on a very basic level for me - to see this Congress come out and tell people that yes we have discovered all kinds of evidence that shows that the US is torturing people, but that they aren't going to do anything about the architects of the torture program.  

    I have always said that the measure of a society is not the crime, but the response to the crime.  There will always be criminals.  The question is does a society allow them to freely pursue criminal activity or do they do something to stop them?  We are well past the point where just knowing that crimes have been committed is sufficient.  We need to stop the crime or we are just as bad as the criminals themselves.

    Parent

    Maybe I am too naive (3.00 / 1) (#32)
    by santarita on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 02:17:59 PM EST
    but I believe that there is a core of Democrats and Republicans who understand the rot and want to do something about it.  I don't think that the power elite of the Dem Party is part of that core.  That's the problem.  

    I don't care if the legislators tear one apart by day and then have drinks together at night.    That's part of sausage-making.  And if it results in persuading the opposition that some very wrong things have happened and need to be examined then I'll even buy the drinks.  

    A sad consequence of the "progressives" being so easily swept off their feet by the concept of Sir Galahad is that they lost a golden opportunity to make abuse of power a big issue in the campaign.  President Obama can get elected now as the candidate who will "move on" by making a good show of not exercising the powers that Bush claimed but making sure that there are no real checks on those powers instituted just in case he needs them.  

    Parent

    I had a front row seat for the sausage (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 05:15:21 PM EST
    making in the last epic battle we fought with the Republicans - aka Watergate.  In a discussion with my Dad last year about impeachment, I told him that he and the others involved in pursuing Nixon had failed us by not impeaching Nixon.  I wasn't being mean, but I was being honest.  He did not disagree which means he conceded that my point was entirely possible.  Shortly after Ford took over, Cheney acted as a lead player on his staff and tried to destroy people like my Dad who had exposed Nixon's criminal activity.  Not long after that, we left Washington for California.

    See from where I sit, they won years ago - they won in 1974 and our party let them won - and they continue to let them win.  Daddy got to be buddies with Nancy when we landed in SF - I went to school with her kids - I have no idea what planet she is on now - she has changed.  I believed in her when she was elected Speaker.  I believed that she needed to say that impeachment was off the table, but that once the crimes became clear she would understand that she had no choice under her oath of office but to pursue that remedy.  Instead, every day we learn more and more about aggregious illegal conduct in these hearings she is so enamoured with and no one does anything at all.  Nothing.

    Its like having police go out and investigate a crime scene, document it, develop reasonable and evidence-based theories about who killed the victim and then telling you that they won't pursue the matter any farther.  That's wacked.  That's what these hearings are like for me.  Frustrating.

    And just so you know I was an intern for a Republican Senator.  I don't think they are all evil by definition and I drink with them, but I stick with the honest ones - which is harder and harder to do in the early 21st century - the party has been taken over by the criminals.  Tom DeLay played a big role in that.  He primaried moderate Republicans and replaced them with wackos.

    Parent

    Better late than ... (none / 0) (#43)
    by santarita on Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 10:50:37 AM EST
    never.  

    Your comment gives me a feeling of hopelessness.  Short of kicking all of the bums, Dems and Republicans,  out I'm not sure what can be done.

    I do think that many Dems like Pelosi have deluded themselves that what they are doing is for the best of the country even if it means being anti-democratic.  

    Parent

    First things First (none / 0) (#31)
    by pluege on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 02:09:32 PM EST
    The goal would be to implement government reforms aimed at preventing future abuses -- and perhaps to bring accountability for wrongdoing by Bush officials.

    all necessary, but first and foremost is to UNDO THE DAMAGE: rescind the Military Commissions Act and the recent FISA revision, close Guantanamo and get the captives there to speedy trials. Then you can go about the business of encoding that which should not be needed because the bush criminality is already clear as bell ILLEGAL.

    Had Pelosi done her job and implemented impeachment proceedings right away, new laws and rescinding recent bush/cheney abominations would not be needed. bush, cheney, rove, rumsfeld, rice, powell, hayden, ashcroft, gonzales, and the rest of the criminals could very well be in jail already with many of them headed to the Hague for war crimes trials. But since Pelsoi and the rest of the Vichy Dems are complicit in bush regime crimes and generally put their own corruption and cravenness above their oath and obligation to protect and defend the Constitution, the rule of law, and the American people, we are left with bush's dangerous steaming pile crap to rectify.
    .

    I would add... (none / 0) (#33)
    by santarita on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 02:21:33 PM EST
    Find out and make public the extent of the damage.  If that Salon article is correct, the warrantless wiretapping discussion has only uncovered the tip of the ice berg.  And warrantless wiretapping itself is only the tip of the iceberg of abuses of power.

    Parent
    Instead of complaining (with considerable ... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Meteor Blades on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 04:39:28 PM EST
    ...justification) that this will never happen, we should be thinking of some means of making it happen. Not, obviously, that this will be easy as those of us who have supported impeachment against  the advice of our betters are all too aware. But there will be many more and quite a few better Democrats in Congress come 2009. While this guarantees absolutely nothing, it offers an opening.

    Not investigating the crimes of this administration - both those enabled by some leading Democrats and those achieved in total secrecy - means we're doomed to see them repeated. For those of us approaching our dotage, it doesn't matter. For those with 60 or so years ahead of them, I would think there would be less despair about making it happen and more effort to do so.  

    I would say that NOT electing Obama (2.00 / 0) (#41)
    by MarkL on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 07:08:34 PM EST
    makes investigations more likely.
    I'm serious. Obama clearly has no inclination for investigating his friends the Republicans, and as President, his disapproval will put a serious damper on any plans to do so. With McCain as President but Democrats having solid majorities in Congress, there will be more reason to investigate Bush's crimes, to embarrass McCain. Heck, McCain might hate Bush enough to go along with it.

    I am not joking at all with this, btw.


    Parent

    Hold up (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 05:43:28 PM EST
    I thought that is what I was trying to do.

    I even wrote a post about it BEFORE it hit the big time and Salon.

    Your comment seems damned unfair to me.

    Parent

    My comment was not directed at you ... (none / 0) (#40)
    by Meteor Blades on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 06:18:13 PM EST
    ...but at the commenters here that say we'll never see a decent investigation. We certainly won't if we don't try.

    I think you've done an excellent job with Parts 1, 2 & 3.

    Parent

    Ok (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jul 27, 2008 at 09:35:28 AM EST
    Sorry for misunderstanding.

    Parent
    Here's a "psychological" view of pols (none / 0) (#39)
    by wurman on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 06:09:06 PM EST
    Any pol is a self-serving re-election machine.

    In high school, and for some in college, we see a certain group, often a clique, of people who seek out all of the elected offices--ASB prez, v-p, sec-treas, activities v-p, yearbook editor, etc.  For some reason, almost all the rest of us "humor" them, probably because we want those tasks done (maybe?) with very little effort on our part.  So we elect them.

    At some point, any moderately observant "normal" person learns to recognize those seekers & may even form some generalizations about their needs.  All of our politicians are of that ilk, or lot, or tribe, or profile . . . !

    That particular ilk has a few focused objectives & 2 goals--election & re-election.  A 3rd goal will sometimes come into play, the step up to higher office.  Thus, every senator & governor in the USA sees a future president in the mirror.

    As per Big Tent (& any commenter with a lick of sense), pols will be pols.

    Extremely rarely, a social reformer will arrive on the scene who sees political action as a means to IMPOSE a new order.  These individuals are almost never former ASB presidents; that's not the path to revolution.  There have been very few successful reformers in the USA--only ML King & civil rights in my lifetime.

    On occasions, a politician will perceive that it may be useful to create a narrative that "reform" is the actual, real, true, genuine goal of his or her campaign(s).  There is no such thing in the USA.  It's always a political wolf hiding in reformer sheep's clothing.

    And somebody had to be "skinned" in order to come up with the sheep's hide.

    Even the hope that some reformer is in "congress assembled" or that a reform candidate will arrive & do something about anything is a faint wish for a doomed cause.

    So I have the skeptical (cynical?) opinion that our 535 pols & their 2 campaigning potential leaders accurately perceive all the Bu$hInc "high crimes and misdemeanors" as a large box of very sharp tools ready at hand for their use when they acquire power.

    John Emerich Edward Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton, KCVO (10 Jan 1834 to 19 Jun 1902): letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, dated April 1887, Acton's pronouncement:

    "I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men with a favourable presumption that they did no wrong. If there is any presumption, it is the other way, against the holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

    Wurman's corollary: Powerful politicians always seek and use more power.